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J Man
08-24-2013, 03:32 AM
I am starting this topic under the Personal Genetics section as it is about my own paternal line (Y-DNA). Recently I received some interesting news that I have another match at 67 markers with another Armenian man with a genetic distance of 12. This makes two Armenians now that I have a 12/67 match with. I also match another Armenian with a gd of 14 at 67 markers. Adding on top of these matches there are a number of other Armenians who are part of the same cluster that I belong to in the Haplogroup J project that are not as close to me but are still close enough to be part of the same cluster. Based on these matches and results I wonder if it would be possible to conclude that my paternal line ancestor was most likely an Armenian before he reached Europe (Italy) possibly in the early Middle Ages?

Hanna
08-24-2013, 08:22 PM
Not necessarily Armenian but it could be anything Anatolian.

AJL
08-24-2013, 09:29 PM
J Man:

Maybe -- I don't think you can rule it out, but matches at 12 markers could be very old. If you could encourage them to ugrade to at least 25 if they haven't already done so it would probably be a stronger clue.

Incidentally this essay (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sscnet.ucla.edu%2Fhistory%2Fa slanian%2FMutafianEssayForPortCitiesConference.doc&ei=niUZUtrtBaqK2wX0rIGgDg&usg=AFQjCNERd3RnlPCAZZLeLCh1SiO5aDUafw&sig2=cPpYnbtcEKSriW4k_8zTXg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I) may interest you.

leonardo
08-24-2013, 10:28 PM
Interesting JMan. I wonder how many years back you would be from a common ancestor with a match that has a GD distance of 12 for 67 markers? By the way, I would say that you have some armenoid type features.

J Man
08-25-2013, 12:09 AM
J Man:

Maybe -- I don't think you can rule it out, but matches at 12 markers could be very old. If you could encourage them to ugrade to at least 25 if they haven't already done so it would probably be a stronger clue.

Incidentally this essay (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sscnet.ucla.edu%2Fhistory%2Fa slanian%2FMutafianEssayForPortCitiesConference.doc&ei=niUZUtrtBaqK2wX0rIGgDg&usg=AFQjCNERd3RnlPCAZZLeLCh1SiO5aDUafw&sig2=cPpYnbtcEKSriW4k_8zTXg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I) may interest you.

They have upgraded to 67 markers AJL. They have all done at least 67 markers. What I mean above is that with two of them I have a mismatch on 12 markers or a gd of 12 at 67 markers with them.

J Man
08-25-2013, 12:15 AM
Interesting JMan. I wonder how many years back you would be from a common ancestor with a match that has a GD distance of 12 for 67 markers? By the way, I would say that you have some armenoid type features.

I think the common ancestor may date back to the early Middle Ages. I had a friend take a look at some of these matches and here is what he said about the one I have a gd of 14 with at 67 markers. For some reason he only counts a gd of 7 for us when in reality it is 14. Some method he is using.

'' The nearest public kit I have here to you is 186370 Turkey. He has a GD of 7 on 67 markers. Using http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html with average mutation rates this converts to 21 generations distance (95% interval 11-35 gen.) or when one generation is assumed with 31 years the distance is 651 (341-1085 years)''

DMXX
08-25-2013, 02:13 PM
One big issue with calculating MRCA's from STR's is that the choice and number of STR's can profoundly effect the sort of results you'll get. STR's are described as being either slow, medium or fast mutating. If we're going by the standard FTDNA panels, then more is certainly better, since you'll get a good coverage from slow through to fast. If STR's are handpicked based on their speed, I imagine the fast-mutating ones will give more accurate results.

12 Y-STR matches might actually mean very little as far as genealogy goes with certain subclades, such as Y-DNA R1b-M269. The number of Iranians I've seen with exact 12 STR haplotype matches is quite hefty, presumably because Y-DNA R1b-M269 experienced a demic boon during the neolithic. As Y-DNA J2a's usually implicated in the neolithic agricultural revolution, I imagine the situation could be similar with specific subclades.

As AJL mentioned, you'll find more definitive answers getting your Armenian Y-relatives to bump their STR's up.

As far as historical events go, a narrative isn't always needed, but I would've thought a connection between Armenia and Italy would've come through pre-Islamic times in the region, when various Roman and Persian dynasties duelled it out over Anatolia.

AJL
08-25-2013, 03:15 PM
Ah I see, it's 12 STRs off at 67. That's better than a match at 12.

Humanist
08-25-2013, 04:49 PM
One big issue with calculating MRCA's from STR's is that the choice and number of STR's can profoundly effect the sort of results you'll get. STR's are described as being either slow, medium or fast mutating. If we're going by the standard FTDNA panels, then more is certainly better, since you'll get a good coverage from slow through to fast. If STR's are handpicked based on their speed, I imagine the fast-mutating ones will give more accurate results.

12 Y-STR matches might actually mean very little as far as genealogy goes with certain subclades, such as Y-DNA R1b-M269. The number of Iranians I've seen with exact 12 STR haplotype matches is quite hefty, presumably because Y-DNA R1b-M269 experienced a demic boon during the neolithic. As Y-DNA J2a's usually implicated in the neolithic agricultural revolution, I imagine the situation could be similar with specific subclades.

As AJL mentioned, you'll find more definitive answers getting your Armenian Y-relatives to bump their STR's up.

As far as historical events go, a narrative isn't always needed, but I would've thought a connection between Armenia and Italy would've come through pre-Islamic times in the region, when various Roman and Persian dynasties duelled it out over Anatolia.

There is certainly something going on between Italy/Sicily and Armenia. The same goes for us, Assyrians, if you recall the Assyrian-Italian mtDNA matches that I have discussed in the past.

A message from Peter Hrechdakian, from a few years back, regarding such matches:


TMRCA always takes us back to Byzantine times when Justinian reconquered Italy. His armies were comprised mainly of Armenians shifted West from the Parthian front. Later Byzantine emperors often relocated entire Armenian populations to Southern Italy as part of their policy of securing their frontiers.

J Man
08-25-2013, 04:58 PM
One big issue with calculating MRCA's from STR's is that the choice and number of STR's can profoundly effect the sort of results you'll get. STR's are described as being either slow, medium or fast mutating. If we're going by the standard FTDNA panels, then more is certainly better, since you'll get a good coverage from slow through to fast. If STR's are handpicked based on their speed, I imagine the fast-mutating ones will give more accurate results.

12 Y-STR matches might actually mean very little as far as genealogy goes with certain subclades, such as Y-DNA R1b-M269. The number of Iranians I've seen with exact 12 STR haplotype matches is quite hefty, presumably because Y-DNA R1b-M269 experienced a demic boon during the neolithic. As Y-DNA J2a's usually implicated in the neolithic agricultural revolution, I imagine the situation could be similar with specific subclades.

As AJL mentioned, you'll find more definitive answers getting your Armenian Y-relatives to bump their STR's up.

As far as historical events go, a narrative isn't always needed, but I would've thought a connection between Armenia and Italy would've come through pre-Islamic times in the region, when various Roman and Persian dynasties duelled it out over Anatolia.

They have all tested out to at least 67 markers as I mentioned above. I have a mismatch of 12 at 67 markers with them.

J Man
08-25-2013, 04:59 PM
Ah I see, it's 12 STRs off at 67. That's better than a match at 12.

That is correct.

DMXX
08-25-2013, 05:01 PM
That is correct.

Ah, understood - Which STRs do you differ from the Armenian by?

J Man
08-25-2013, 05:04 PM
There is certainly something going on between Italy/Sicily and Armenia. The same goes for us, Assyrians, if you recall the Assyrian-Italian mtDNA matches that I have discussed in the past.

A message from Peter Hrechdakian, from a few years back, regarding such matches:

Yes one of my Armenian matches who I have discussed this at length with is pretty much convinced that my paternal line ancestor was an Armenian who came to Southern Italy during Byzantine times or possibly a bit later maybe as a soldier.

J Man
08-25-2013, 05:15 PM
Ah, understood - Which STRs do you differ from the Armenian by?

Well I have two Armenian matches that I have a gd of 12 at 67 markers with and one that I have 14 out of 67 with. I also have a number of others that are a bit more distant than these. I need to find and compare myself with the haplotypes of the two that are 12/67 with me but I do have the haplotype on hand of the one that is 14/67 with me. Here are the markers that we differ on below. I hope the way I write these makes sense.

DYS439: 10/11 (1), DYS437: 14/15 (1), DYS449: 27/30 (3), DYS456: 13/16 (3), CDY: 38-38/37-38 (1), DYS534: 18/17 (1), and DYS446: 11/15 (4).

DMXX
08-25-2013, 05:35 PM
Well I have two Armenian matches that I have a gd of 12 at 67 markers with and one that I have 14 out of 67 with. I also have a number of others that are a bit more distant than these. I need to find and compare myself with the haplotypes of the two that are 12/67 with me but I do have the haplotype on hand of the one that is 14/67 with me. Here are the markers that we differ on below. I hope the way I write these makes sense.

DYS439: 10/11 (1), DYS437: 14/15 (1), DYS449: 27/30 (3), DYS456: 13/16 (3), CDY: 38-38/37-38 (1), DYS534: 18/17 (1), and DYS446: 11/15 (4).

Thanks, these look mostly medium or fast mutating to me... Quite interesting. Looks like the Armenian connection definitely has some substance to it based on this, let alone the other information you've collected. Keep us tuned on what else you discover!

J Man
08-25-2013, 05:40 PM
Thanks, these look mostly medium or fast mutating to me... Quite interesting. Looks like the Armenian connection definitely has some substance to it based on this, let alone the other information you've collected. Keep us tuned on what else you discover!

I definitely will! I am going to try and find out exactly which markers I have a mismatch at with the two Armenian fellows that I have the gd of 12 with at 67 as well.

leonardo
08-25-2013, 09:41 PM
I think the common ancestor may date back to the early Middle Ages. I had a friend take a look at some of these matches and here is what he said about the one I have a gd of 14 with at 67 markers. For some reason he only counts a gd of 7 for us when in reality it is 14. Some method he is using.

'' The nearest public kit I have here to you is 186370 Turkey. He has a GD of 7 on 67 markers. Using http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html with average mutation rates this converts to 21 generations distance (95% interval 11-35 gen.) or when one generation is assumed with 31 years the distance is 651 (341-1085 years)''
Have you been able to communicate with this person, to verify his ancestry is Armenian? As you may know, there was movement of eastern and southern Europeans into the Ottoman empire, in the form of captives (soldiers, commoners, etc.), who were sent to serve as slaves. So, a person living in places like Turkey today may find out, if he looked, that his ancestor was a Slav or Italian who came hundreds of years ago, and not necessarily a native. Is your y-dna native to the region and common among those who have lived there in the recent past?

J Man
08-25-2013, 11:07 PM
Have you been able to communicate with this person, to verify his ancestry is Armenian? As you may know, there was movement of eastern and southern Europeans into the Ottoman empire, in the form of captives (soldiers, commoners, etc.), who were sent to serve as slaves. So, a person living in places like Turkey today may find out, if he looked, that his ancestor was a Slav or Italian who came hundreds of years ago, and not necessarily a native. Is your y-dna native to the region and common among those who have lived there in the recent past?

I have not been in contact with this match that I mentioned directly no but I have been in contact with another Armenian match that is a bit more distant to me and he can confirm that this match and all of my other Armenian matches including the two that I have a gd of 12 with at 67 markers are all of native Armenian ancestry. Well my Y-DNA is J2a1* (L26) (old J2a3*/J2a4*) and is thought to have originated in Anatolia or the Transcaucasus region a very long time ago. J2a is the second most common haplogroup among Armenians after R1b I believe.

J Man
08-27-2013, 12:15 AM
Here is a link to the Haplogroup J Project which shows the haplotype cluster that I myself and the Armenians I am mentioning in this thread plus more belong to. It is the ''J2a3* PF5116+ PF5123+ (Cluster C), Z2227 and Z2229 interesting'' cluster.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna_j/default.aspx?section=yresults

J Man
09-21-2013, 03:24 AM
So based on all of this then does it seem likely that my paternal line ancestor was an Armenian man before my line reached Italy?

Asimakidis
04-11-2016, 06:05 PM
Same thing happened to Crete during Emperor Nikiforos Fokas. After the island was liberated from various "pirates" etc , the island was repopulated with mainly Pontic Greeks (who have common aDna with the Armenian population in the area). Lets not forget that the "Macedonian dynasty" in Eastern roman empire mainly had Emperors of Armenian descent, Basileios "Bulgaroktonos" the second etc. It is also claimed that Elefterios Venizelos had an Armenian heritage. So the Armenian connections seems pretty widespread in the mediterranean.