Master L1 thread

[bmoney]

Hi All,

Trying to consolidate L research in here focussing on India/Pakistan/Afghanistan as there seems to be a dearth of research due to low distribution frequencies of this haplogroup worldwide

Will update this post with new research as papers come out

Latest & Rumours: Davidski: The message we're all getting, one way or another, is that L-M20 is by far the dominant marker in these Harappan remains. No one seems to know anything about any R1a in them, but R2 is a possibility.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2017/02/rumors-leaks-thread.html

Snippet from Khana in this forum:

So I don't know if this has been discussed, but I heard from somebody who knows an archeologist at the Rakhigarhi site.
They are going to release a paper later in the year and 80-90% of the samples were y-HG L-M20.

Distribution

The greatest diversity of Y-DNA haplogroup L is centered around the northwestern part of the subcontinent, especially Balochistan. Makranis (southern Baloch) exhibit L1a and L1b both at a frequency of 10%. Balochis exhibit L1a at 20% and L1c at 4%. Lastly, the Brahui exhibit both L1a and L1c at 4%. The diversity is thus highest in this area. In Pakistan, L1a is as frequent as L1c, although the northern areas of Pakistan very much lean towards L1c

19632

FTdna
L1a1 (originally L1) occurs mainly in Western India and Southern Pakistan.
L1a2 (originally L3) occurs mainly in northern regions of Pakistan and India but is also found as far west as the Chechen Republic.
L1b (originally L2) occurs in Western Asia and Europe.
L2 (formerly L*) has to date been observed in a small number of Project members whose ancestry is from all over Europe. It may trace its origins back to the Middle East or the Caucasus.

Earliest known L1

Admixture

M536324 I1658 M182163 I1656 M930063 RISE423 M691697 RISE407 Modern
Armenia EBA Armenia MLBA Armenia MBA Armenia LBA Armenian
Run time 8.22 Run time 8.42 Run time 6.24 Run time 3.92 Run time
S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 1
Baloch 25.53 Baloch 26.71 Baloch 23.13 Baloch 28.22 Baloch 18
Caucasian 56.75 Caucasian 42.8 Caucasian 38.66 Caucasian 30.75 Caucasian 57
NE-Euro 4.79 NE-Euro 16.99 NE-Euro 18.57 NE-Euro 24.77 NE-Euro 3
SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 0.54 Siberian - Siberian -
NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.92 Papuan - Papuan -
American - American 0.12 American 1.3 American 1.54 American
Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0.59 Beringian - Beringian -
Mediterranean 5.88 Mediterranean 9.14 Mediterranean 9.34 Mediterranean 6.98 Mediterranean 8
SW-Asian 6.45 SW-Asian 4.23 SW-Asian 4.94 SW-Asian 6.38 SW-Asian 13
San - San - San - San - San -
E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
W-African 0.33 W-African - W-African 1.99 W-African 1.36 W-African

The beginning of the Bronze Age in the southern Caucasus has been thought to coincide with theappearance of the Kura Araxes (KA) culture around 3500
CAL B.C.
KA artifacts are known not only from thesouthern Caucasus but also from sites in Anatolia, Iran, and the Levant. Recent discoveries from Areni-1Cave in the Vayots Dzor region of Armenia demonstrate that the origin of the distinctive KA artifactassemblage lies in the Late Chalcolithic of the late 5th to early 4th millennia
B.C

Data collected during the 2007 excavations of Areni-1 Cave enable the story of a Late Chalcolithic– Early Bronze Age population to be told in greaterdetail for the southern Caucasus,
Areni-1 is neither typical nor represen-tative of the Late Chalcolithic of the southernCaucasus as a whole, but it nevertheless provides anunusual and exciting opportunity to broaden ourunderstanding of the time period.

http://www.academia.edu/1462570/Areni-1_Cave_Armenia_A_Chalcolithic_Early_Bronze_Age_set tlement_and_ritual_site_in_the_southern_Caucasus

Concerning haplogroup L, L1c-M357 is significantly higher in Burusho and Kalash (15% and 25%) than in other populations. L1a-M76 is most frequent in Balochi (20%), and is found at lower levels in Kyrgyz, Pashtun, Tajik, Uzbek and Turkmen populations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799995/

The Y-lineages observed in the present study may suggest two major episodes of migrations: One carried J2 and to some extent L and G with the Neolithic farmers (Underhill et al. 2001)

The synthesis of Y-genealogy and estimated diversity of several clades demonstrated that North Indians carry three Y-lineages, one derived from Central Asia or West Eurasia (R1a1★, R1b1b2★ and R2 haplogroups), one derived from the Middle East (J2★, Shia-specific E1b1b1, and to some extent G★ and L★ haplogroups), and the indigenous Indian Y-lineage marked by H1★, F★, O★ and C★ without the M217 transversion.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755252/

This is the largest haplogroup in the Jat sample population. It is present in the Indian population at an overall frequency of about 7–15% (Basu et al., 2003; Cordaux et al., 2004). Genetic studies suggest that this may be one of the original haplogroups of the creators of Indus Valley Civilization (McElreavey and Quintana-Murci, 2005; Sengupta et al., 2006). It has a frequency of about 28% in western Pakistan and Baluchistan, from where the agricultural creators of this civilization emerged (Qamar et al., 2002). The origins of this haplogroup can be traced to the rugged and mountainous Pamir Knot region in Tajikistan (Wells, 2007).

Haplogroup India Pakistan Total Percent Marker Age (kya) Geographic origins
L 110 1 111 36.8% M11 ~25–30 Pamir Knot region (Hindu Kush, Tian Shan, Himalayas) in Tajikistan, Indus Valley

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity.
haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14586639

India
They are, in descending frequency order, HGs H and its subclades H1*, H1c, H1a, and H2 (26.4%); R1a1-M17 (15.8%); O2a-M95 (14.6%); R2-M124 (9.3%); J2-M172 (9.1%); O3e-M134 (8.0%); L1-M76 (6.3%); and F*-M89 (5.2%).
HGs L1-M76 and H1-M52 have peak variance distributions in the Maharashtra region in coastal western India.

Pakistan
In Pakistan, nine HGs exceed 5% frequency and account for 83.6% of the samples. They include HGs R1a1-M17 (24.4%), L*-M20 (13.1%), J2-M172 (11.9%), R2-M124 (7.4%), R1b-P25 (7.4%), G-M201 (6.3%), C3-M217 (6.8%), H-M69* (6.3%), and L1-M76 (5.1%).

The new L3-M357 subclade accounts for 86% of L-M20(xL1xL2) chromosomes in Pakistan but occurs only sporadically (3/728) in India.

The phylogeography and the similarity of microsatellite variation of HGs R1a1 and R2 to L1-M76 in South Asian tribes argues that they likely share a common demographic history.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/

Hap 28 = Hap L in this study

haplogroup 28 was present in all except the Hazaras and the Kashmiris

The fifth haplogroup that is common in Pakistan, haplogroup 28, differs from all the others in its distribution. Within Pakistan, it made up 14% of our sample and was present in all but two populations (both of which had very small sample sizes), so it is both common and widespread. Outside Pakistan and the nearby countries, however, it is rare. It has been reported in India (30%; present in 3/3 populations), Tajikistan (10%; present in 5/6 populations), and Uzbekistan (3%; present in 10/13 populations), but it is rare in Russia (0.4%; present in 1/6 populations) and the Caucasus (1.4%; present in 1/6 populations (Wells et al. 2001) and has not been found at all in China or Mongolia (unpublished observations). BATWING estimates of the TMRCA of the Pakistani haplogroup 28 chromosomes were ∼7,000 (4,000–14,000) years (table 8). Thus, within this time period, the Pakistani populations have diverged from a common ancestral population or have experienced considerable male gene flow between themselves or from a common source. Since the estimated age corresponds to the early Neolithic period, the spread of this lineage might be associated with the local expansion of farmers.

Pakistan Parsi
Given the small effective population size of the Parsis, the closeness of their match to the Iranian data may be fortuitous, and the presence of haplogroup 28 chromosomes at 18% (4% in Iran; Wells et al. 2001) suggests some gene flow from the surrounding populations. The TMRCA for the Parsi-specific cluster in the haplogroup 28 networks was 1,800 (600–4,500) years (table 8), consistent with the migration of a small number of lineages from Iran.

Modern Greeks show a moderately high frequency of haplogroup 21 (28%; Rosser et al. 2000), but this haplogroup was not seen in either the Burusho or the Kalash sample and was found in only 2% of the Pathans, whereas the local haplogroup 28 was present at 17%, 25%, and 13%, respectively.

haplogroup 28 is present at 13% in the Pathans, so no support for a Jewish origin is found, and the admixture estimate was 0%

This difference and the high frequency of haplogroup 28 in the Baluch (29%) make a predominantly Syrian origin for their Y chromosome unlikely

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/

Cordaux et al. (19) defined, heuristically, a package of haplogroups (J2, R1a, R2, and L) to be associated with the migration of IE people and the introduction of the caste system to India, again from Central Asia, because they had been observed at significantly lower proportions in South Indian tribal groups, with the high frequency of R1a among Chenchus of Andhra Pradesh (6) considered as an aberrant phenomenon (19).

The near absence of L lineages within the IE speakers from Bihar (0%), Orissa (0%), and West Bengal (1.5%) further suggests that the current distribution of Y haplogroups in India is associated primarily with geographic rather than linguistic or cultural determinants.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1347984/

Haplogroup L-M20 is found predominantly in India and Pakistan (15%) and has tentatively been associated with the expansion of farming, thus implying a nonIndian origin
These estimates are based on the frequencies of seven haplogroups (which account for >80% of Indian Y chromosomes), assuming that haplogroups H-M52, O-M95, and F-M89 have indigenous origins, whereas J-M172, L-M20, R-M17 and R-M124 have nonindigenous origins given their putative phylogeography (see text).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982204000405

The spread of clade L is confined mostly to southern, central, and western Asia (table 3). Being virtually absent in Europe, it is also found irregularly and at low frequencies in populations of the Middle East and southern Caucasus (Nebel et al. 2001; Scozzari et al. 2001; Weale et al. 2001; Wilson et al. 2001). It occurs in Pakistan at a frequency of 13.5% (Qamar et al. 2002). In Indians, all Y chromosomes that had the derived allele at M11, M20, and M61 also shared M27 specific to its subclade L1.

Interestingly, mtDNA haplogroup U7 (Richards et al. 2000), like Y-chromosomal clade L (Underhill et al. 2000), is also found, though at low frequencies, in western Asia and occasionally in Mediterranean Europe. The differences in STR modal haplotypes of the L clade between the Caucasus (Weale et al. 2001) and India point to their independent expansions from two distinct founder populations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379225/

Frequency of haplogroup L- (M11/M20), which is also proposed to be associated with the expansion of farming, was 13.7%, with the highest occurrences in caste populations. A similar frequency of L lineage has previously been reported from Pakistan [21]. An M27 mutation that defined the subclad L1 was found in all the L-M11 samples in the present study. This is in accordance with the previous studies that M27 characterizes the Indian and Pakistani lineages, which is absent in their Turkish counterparts [22]. This result, together with the differences in STR nodal haplotypes of the L clad between the Caucasus and Indian populations [4], and matches in the six STR loci typed between Turkish and Armenians [22], lead to the assumption that the Indian and Pakistani L lineages might have originated from a distinct founder population. This view is supported by the much lower STR variance of the L haplogroups compared with the other Indian Y-lineages, observed in the present study.

https://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2156-7-42

The spread of haplogroup L-M11 lineages is largely re-stricted to populations of the south Caucasus (Weale et al.2001), Middle East (Nebel et al. 2001b), Pakistan (Qamar et al. 2002) and India (Kivisild et al. 2003). InterestinglyTurkish L lineages lack the M27 mutation that character-izes Indian and Pakistani L lineages.

http://www.academia.edu/5557321/Excavating_Y-chromosome_haplotype_strata_in_Anatolia

From Rukha

Sayyid Ajjal is the ancestor of many Muslims in areas all across China. And one of his descendants is the famous Navigator of Ming Dynasty, Zheng He, who led the largest armada in the world of 15th century. The origin of Sayyid Ajjal's family remains unclear although many studies have been done on this topic of Muslim history. In this paper, we studied the Y chromosomes of his present descendants, and found they all have haplogroup L1a-M76, proving a southern Persian origin.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/a-persian-in-china-y-chromosome-of.html

Bosch et al. [14] studied Y chromosome variation in the Balkans, including a sample of 41 Greeks. Greeks belonged to the major Caucasoid haplogroups. The identity of the K*(xP) chromosomes is not clear, but they could belong to the minor Caucasoid haplogroups K2 and L which have been previously observed in Greeks, or to other K-related lineages.

http://carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/homogenous-balkan-analysis.pdf

L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Raqqa, a northern Syrian city in which its previous inhabitants have been wiped out by the Mongol genocides and repopulated in recent times by local Bedouin populations and Chechen war refugees from Russia (El-Sibai 2009)

Y-chromosome haplogroup (L-M20) has a high mean frequency of 14% in Pakistan and so differs from all other haplogroups in its frequency distribution. L-M20 is also observed, although at lower frequencies, in neighbouring countries, such as India, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Russia. Both the frequency distribution and estimated expansion time (7000 YBP) of this lineage suggest that its spread in the Indus Valley may be associated with the expansion of local farming groups during the Neolithic period (Qamar et al. 2002).

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2005/08/population-genetics-of-indus-valley.html

[BMG]

Hi my maternal grandfather's line is L1c . The direct ancestral line goes back to kollam town in late 18th century .

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Hi I'm an L1b2c (L M20 > M22 > M317 > SK1412 >SK1414 / FGC51074) > FGC51036) English. I trace my surname line back to circa 1722 on the Berkshire / Oxfordshire county border in Southern England. I share my Y line with another Southern English family. I've Big Y tested. On yfull haplotree, FGC analysed, and in the FTDNA Y Haplogroup L project.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Although out of date, probably poorly informed (I'm far from an expert), and with a slight bias towards L1b and Europe, I did a few years ago launch a Y haplogroup L resource page from my personal blog:

http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/y-haplogroup-l-not-the-r1b-sub-clade-or-mtdna-resource-page

I'm sure that you've found it, and have all of that information and more above.

Y Cousin Paul

[Caspian]

Haplogroup L, L1, L1a, L1b etc. they are not South Asian. Biggest diversities of haplogroup L in Iraq, West Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and South Caucasus. Origin of L was near the Zagros, Mesopotamia, Levant or South Caucasus I guess. Oldest known haplogroup L samples are from Armenia and they don't have South Asian admixtures. Their autosomal genetics are mostly Caucasian+East Mediterranean+European, because L was carrier of Caucasian Hunter Gatherer type component (like J1 and J2) or East Mediterranean-Anatolian Farmer type component (like G2a).
L-M27 (L1a1) has TMRCA about ~4500 years in Indian subcontinent https://yfull.com/tree/L-M27/
while one of the 6000 years old ancient Armenian L samples belongs to L-M27. This case shows us that L-M27 is older in Caucasus than South Asia.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

I'd agree that I see an origin as being somewhere between Syria and Pakistan for L and for some of its subclades. It's there that you see the most diversity including some of the older divisions.

[bmoney]

Hi my maternal grandfather's line is L1c . The direct ancestral line goes back to kollam town in late 18th century .

Thats a very rare subclade in India, what caste was he?

Most Indians & Baluchis belong to L1a-M76 like myself, and the greatest L diversity now is in Southwestern Pakistan

Kalash mostly belong to L1c

[bmoney]

Haplogroup L, L1, L1a, L1b etc. they are not South Asian. Biggest diversities of haplogroup L in Iraq, West Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and South Caucasus. Origin of L was near the Zagros, Mesopotamia, Levant or South Caucasus I guess. Oldest known haplogroup L samples are from Armenia and they don't have South Asian admixtures.
L-M27 (L1a1) has TMRCA about ~4500 years in Indian subcontinent https://yfull.com/tree/L-M27/
while one of the 6000 years old ancient Armenian L samples belongs to L-M27. This case shows us that L-M27 is older in Caucasus than South Asia.

Yep makes sense, I meant to suggest that modern day L1 diversity is highest in Pakistan which has L1a, L1b and L1c

Feel free to add anything non-South Asian, most of the research I've found was south Asian focussed except for the Turkish paper that I've referenced

[bmoney]

Although out of date, probably poorly informed (I'm far from an expert), and with a slight bias towards L1b and Europe, I did a few years ago launch a Y haplogroup L resource page from my personal blog:

http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/y-haplogroup-l-not-the-r1b-sub-clade-or-mtdna-resource-page

I'm sure that you've found it, and have all of that information and more above.

Y Cousin Paul

Thanks for your work Paul,

Yes i've read and probably referenced your work and Cagetti's whos also European L

[jesus]

Proto Elamite Dravidian IVC Kura araxes unity! :P

Btw, The Parsi priest class(formed after their arrival to India) are around 55% Y-DNA L(mostly L1b with a smaller amount of L1a)

[bmoney]

Proto Elamite Dravidian IVC Kura araxes unity! :P

Btw, The Parsi priest class(formed after their arrival to India) are around 55% Y-DNA L(mostly L1b with a smaller amount of L1a)

:beerchug:

We da real civilization builders - bloody Siberian Indo-Europeans taking our fertile land in Iran and India :P

What subclade are you Jesus?

yes that chimes in with this research - though Indian Parsis are bottlenecked AF due to founder effects:

Given the small effective population size of the Parsis, the closeness of their match to the Iranian data may be fortuitous, and the presence of haplogroup 28 chromosomes at 18% (4% in Iran; Wells et al. 2001) suggests some gene flow from the surrounding populations. The TMRCA for the Parsi-specific cluster in the haplogroup 28 networks was 1,800 (600–4,500) years (table 8), consistent with the migration of a small number of lineages from Iran.

[jesus]

:beerchug:

We da real civilization builders - bloody Siberian Indo-Europeans taking our fertile land in Iran and India :P

What subclade are you Jesus?

yes that chimes in with this research - though Indian Parsis are bottlenecked AF due to founder effects:

Given the small effective population size of the Parsis, the closeness of their match to the Iranian data may be fortuitous, and the presence of haplogroup 28 chromosomes at 18% (4% in Iran; Wells et al. 2001) suggests some gene flow from the surrounding populations. The TMRCA for the Parsi-specific cluster in the haplogroup 28 networks was 1,800 (600–4,500) years (table 8), consistent with the migration of a small number of lineages from Iran.

I fall under L1b, the west Asian/Caucasian/European version of L. Apparently Parsis carry the same mutation as myself and Norfolk(SK1414) but their STR values are a bit different.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

If I recall, there was a L-SK1414 tracing from Azores (Portuguese sea trade routes), that had an STR marker, that the Pakistan survey associated with Parsi. Or have I got this wrong?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

My STRs are closest to the other English family. Then maybe to a guy who's line came from Birjand, Iran.

[jesus]

If I recall, there was a L-SK1414 tracing from Azores (Portuguese sea trade routes), that had an STR marker, that the Pakistan survey associated with Parsi. Or have I got this wrong?

Trade connection is posssible. I remember a Corsican Y-DNA T member with the last name Parsi, I think he claimed Persian/middle eastern connection too. I found out that he shares 8 cm with a Persian guy from southern Fars/Pars province(that area is close to the coast and Famous for trade and pirates).

There are also Persians/Azeri Catholic converts in Iberia from modern day Iran(they left in the 1500s-1600s and worked as ambassadors/traders).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_of_Persia

[kush]

I took AncestryDNA so they don't give the haplogroup analysis like 23andme. I got my haplogroups from wegene after transferring the fiel from ancestrydna. I got L1a1 for paternal and J1 for maternal. My paternal makes sense based on my region, but my maternal seems weird. Can you guys confirm if wegene's haplogroups are accurate or not?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

L-SK1414 (L1b2c) is growing on the FT-DNA Project, from when Gareth spotted my SNP in that Balochi sample in the Pakistan survey, following my Big Y - now with the STR predictions and the L SNP chip. I'm seeing it in England, Lebanon, Central Europe, Italy, Portugal, France, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Cyprus, and Turkey now. I see Gareth has us split into four sections at the moment. FT-DNA added my FGC51036 to the SNP chip, but no other tester has yet tested positive for that one.

I think L-SK1414 has multiple entry into Europe judging by the diversity. The only Big Y so far are myself and the Druze sample, but we were pretty far apart. More Big Y should provide new sub clades under L1b2c.

The L-PH8 guys are quiet in this thread!

[bmoney]

I took AncestryDNA so they don't give the haplogroup analysis like 23andme. I got my haplogroups from wegene after transferring the fiel from ancestrydna. I got L1a1 for paternal and J1 for maternal. My paternal makes sense based on my region, but my maternal seems weird. Can you guys confirm if wegene's haplogroups are accurate or not?

J1 is a middle-eastern/caucasus origin mtdna - maybe it was one of the mtdnas of IVC peoples but was largely diluted by indigenous mtdna M which might explain why you have it

The Kalash have both high levels of ydna L and mtdna J

[parasar]

Thats a very rare subclade in India, what caste was he?

Most Indians & Baluchis belong to L1a-M76 like myself, and the greatest L diversity now is in Southwestern Pakistan

Kalash mostly belong to L1c

India is very poorly sampled.
The only reasonable sized sample set turned up L1c in nearly all TN populations.
Arunkumar's Tamil data:
DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

It shows far more STR diversity that all L1c from northern South Asia, Central Asia, and Caucasus combined.
The Vadama have the northern type STR.

[bmoney]

India is very poorly sampled.
The only reasonable sized sample set turned up L1c in nearly all TN populations.
Arunkumar's Tamil data:
DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

It shows far more STR diversity that all L1c from northern South Asia, Central Asia, and Caucasus combined.
The Vadama have the northern type STR.


Thanks!

[khanabadoshi]

J1 is a middle-eastern/caucasus origin mtdna - maybe it was one of the mtdnas of IVC peoples but was largely diluted by indigenous mtdna M which might explain why you have it

The Kalash have both high levels of ydna L and mtdna J

Also, all the Punjabi Arains I've seen (only 4) have mtDNA J1

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Nomenclature updates can be so confusing. I just had to check up, so for the record ...


Y haplogroup L3 became renamed L1c, which was renamed again as L1a2 (L-M357). That helps me! L3 or L1c under ISOGG 2017 are L1a2. Please continue. ;-) The mysterious L.

[khanabadoshi]

L-SK1414 (L1b2c) is growing on the FT-DNA Project, from when Gareth spotted my SNP in that Balochi sample in the Pakistan survey, following my Big Y - now with the STR predictions and the L SNP chip. I'm seeing it in England, Lebanon, Central Europe, Italy, Portugal, France, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Cyprus, and Turkey now. I see Gareth has us split into four sections at the moment. FT-DNA added my FGC51036 to the SNP chip, but no other tester has yet tested positive for that one.

I think L-SK1414 has multiple entry into Europe judging by the diversity. The only Big Y so far are myself and the Druze sample, but we were pretty far apart. More Big Y should provide new sub clades under L1b2c.

The L-PH8 guys are quiet in this thread!

Is the Baloch sample from HGDP? Do you know which sample exactly? I'm trying to find all the HGDP samples y-HG. There was some y-data attached to the samples on y-str.org and when you ran that, all the Baloch samples were L. I assumed it was inaccurate so I didn't add them.

[khanabadoshi]

I haven't gone through my whole list yet, but here are the few L's I've come across so far:



AFG; KANDAHAR - Pashtun [Ayubi]
F > GHIJK > HIJK > IJK > K > LT > L > L-M22 > L-M2481 > L-L1307


SINDH - [heksindhi]
F > GHIJK > HIJK > IJK > K > LT > L > L-M22 > L-M2481 > L-L1307 > L-L1307*


AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]
F > GHIJK > HIJK > IJK > K > LT > L > L-M22 > L-M2481 > L-L1307 > L-L1307*

[khanabadoshi]

Nomenclature updates can be so confusing. I just had to check up, so for the record ...


Y haplogroup L3 became renamed L1c, which was renamed again as L1a2 (L-M357). That helps me! L3 or L1c under ISOGG 2017 are L1a2. Please continue. ;-) The mysterious L.

Haha, this is why I stick the SNPs, it's much easier to keep track of.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

@khanabadoshi Qamar Study 2002. "CEPH Human Genome Diversity Panel (HGDP), sample ID HGDP00134, which is a Makrani from Pakistan.".

[bmoney]

Is the Baloch sample from HGDP? Do you know which sample exactly? I'm trying to find all the HGDP samples y-HG. There was some y-data attached to the samples on y-str.org and when you ran that, all the Baloch samples were L. I assumed it was inaccurate so I didn't add them.

This is probably a biased sample or close relatives, Baluchis do have 25% L but that leaves 75% non-L

Its like the Raqqah Chechen descendents who all carry L due to founder effect

[A Norfolk L-M20]

I've read contradicting hypotheses of the origins of the Balochi. Isn't the language considered Iranic?

[bmoney]

I've read contradicting hypotheses of the origins of the Balochi. Isn't the language considered Iranic?

Yep NW Iranian with Kurdish

My hypothesis is that they are Iranianized Brahuis (Dravidian) since they are genetically indistinguishable from the Brahui

It could be an earlier split from a Kurd-like population who Iranianized the Brahui - there were later Kurd migrations to Pakistan as well from probably the same source area though these spoke Kurdish

User @kurd is one of them, he would be best placed to answer this

[anthroin]

LOL I appreciated this thread so much that I thanked each and every post of it till now, without even reading them. Hope this thread never reaches its end, all the while being educational. Will go through the thread during leisure. But guys, please try to do something like this for the other important Y-DNA haplogroups of India like H, C, O and T also and make the most up-to-date compendium of knowledge and thought about these haplogroups, the sub-haplogroups, etc., to the finest detail. Too much to ask for I know, but letting know what I wish for is perhaps not such a bad idea I think and this is perhaps the best occasion to do that.

But then, please everyone know that there is absolutely no need for any of us to feel awkward when what I wished for above does not materialise ever lol.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

:beerchug:

We da real civilization builders - bloody Siberian Indo-Europeans taking our fertile land in Iran and India :P




Favourite post in the thread @anthroin :-D

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Then just outside of this L1 remit ... the highly enigmatic L2 (L-L595) of Europe. Shadowy suggestions of a Neolithic survival in Europe.

[bmoney]

LOL I appreciated this thread so much that I thanked each and every post of it till now, without even reading them. Hope this thread never reaches its end, all the while being educational. Will go through the thread during leisure. But guys, please try to do something like this for the other important Y-DNA haplogroups of India like H, C, O and T also and make the most up-to-date compendium of knowledge and thought about these haplogroups, the sub-haplogroups, etc., to the finest detail. Too much to ask for I know, but letting know what I wish for is perhaps not such a bad idea I think and this is perhaps the best occasion to do that.

But then, please everyone know that there is absolutely no need for any of us to feel awkward when what I wished for above does not materialise ever lol.

Haha yes us Ls are all about fun

Id say the only haplogroups more or equally under-researched as L in South Asia is H and R2 - H is also the majority of the population

Seems to have some ancient Eurasian roots that haplogroup, would be interested to read more about it

Also, don't want to keep this thread focussed on South Asia, I want to read more about European/Levantine/Caucasian L

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Yes, there's usually a good contribution from the Pontic Greek and other L-PH8. I expect they'll post later.

[khanabadoshi]

LOL I appreciated this thread so much that I thanked each and every post of it till now, without even reading them. Hope this thread never reaches its end, all the while being educational. Will go through the thread during leisure. But guys, please try to do something like this for the other important Y-DNA haplogroups of India like H, C, O and T also and make the most up-to-date compendium of knowledge and thought about these haplogroups, the sub-haplogroups, etc., to the finest detail. Too much to ask for I know, but letting know what I wish for is perhaps not such a bad idea I think and this is perhaps the best occasion to do that.

But then, please everyone know that there is absolutely no need for any of us to feel awkward when what I wished for above does not materialise ever lol.

Until I started categorizing the HG and HGDP samples, I didn't realize how much H or C and O there is. But forreal there is A LOT of H. I know nothing about H at all LOL.

[jesus]

H is kinda weird. Some subclades look strictly south Asian, while other subclades seem early European farmer related.

[khanabadoshi]

@khanabadoshi Qamar Study 2002. "CEPH Human Genome Diversity Panel (HGDP), sample ID HGDP00134, which is a Makrani from Pakistan.".

Thanks.

Of note, I got MAKRANI_HGDP00130 and his mtDNA from phylotree is L1b1a3a.

However, he is definitely Siddi-Makrani as he has significant African admixture:



West_Asia
31.18


NE_Europe
7.11


Americas
1.48


Siberia
0.34


Oceania
0.22


South_Asia
13.41


NE_Asia
-


East_Africa
3.89


SE_Asia
1.74


SW_Europe
-


SW_Asia
4.71


West_Africa
33.15


South_Africa
2.77




Here is MAKRANI_HGDP00134 admixture:



West_Asia
56.54


NE_Europe
6.16


Americas
0.14


Siberia
1.03


Oceania
-


South_Asia
19.18


NE_Asia
-


East_Africa
1.50


SE_Asia
0.18


SW_Europe
1.39


SW_Asia
7.22


West_Africa
5.56


South_Africa
1.10




So he is a lot less admixed with Siddi. Interesting.


Off topic:

https://i.gyazo.com/7439906b1d75f196a5629fc10cb9102e.png

Looks like I'm out of a job, boys!

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Thanks.

Of note, I got MAKRANI_HGDP00130 and his mtDNA from phylotree is L1b1a3a.

However, he is definitely Siddi-Makrani as he has significant African admixture:



West_Asia
31.18


NE_Europe
7.11


Americas
1.48


Siberia
0.34


Oceania
0.22


South_Asia
13.41


NE_Asia
-


East_Africa
3.89


SE_Asia
1.74


SW_Europe
-


SW_Asia
4.71


West_Africa
33.15


South_Africa
2.77




Here is MAKRANI_HGDP00134 admixture:



West_Asia
56.54


NE_Europe
6.16


Americas
0.14


Siberia
1.03


Oceania
-


South_Asia
19.18


NE_Asia
-


East_Africa
1.50


SE_Asia
0.18


SW_Europe
1.39


SW_Asia
7.22


West_Africa
5.56


South_Africa
1.10




So he is a lot less admixed with Siddi. Interesting.



I didn't know that. I did understand that he was a Balochi speaker?

[khanabadoshi]

I didn't know that. I did understand that he was a Balochi speaker?

So, of the Makrani samples in HGDP, some are Sheedi/Siddi (ie. Bantu) admixed, as that population is mostly settled in the Makran region, while others are Baloch, and many are some level of admixture between. They are probably all Balochi speaking (of the Makrani dialect). So when looking at the Makrani samples under the scope of mtDNA or yDNA you have to keep in mind there is an African connection for some of them. Makran specifically refers to the red area (It's not entirely accurate but give you an idea):

https://i.gyazo.com/f1bafc17593241f50ad1d3979c1bd2e0.jpg

[A Norfolk L-M20]

That is excellent, thank you for explaining so well!

[pegasus]

Until I started categorizing the HG an.d HGDP samples, I didn't realize how much H or C and O there is. But forreal there is A LOT of H. I know nothing about H at all LOL.

H is very much a SA marker, my guess is if they find an upper Paleolithic South Asian he is going to be H very likely.

[Ebizur]

H is very much a SA marker, my guess is if they find an upper Paleolithic South Asian he is going to be H very likely.More important than the fact that Y-DNA haplogroup H has been found with notable frequency among modern South Asian males is the fact that it subsumes a great number of subclades with very ancient TMRCA estimates based solely on data from South Asian males. Even ignoring the European/West Asian basal branch (i.e. H-P96, former F3), the level of diversity within South Asian haplogroup H is so great (and, at least among extant humans, almost unique to people living in that region) that it probably has been present in the region for more than 42,000 years.

Haplogroup L is significantly less diverse. Even the basal European L-L595 (attested to date in Sardinia and Germany if I remember correctly) probably shares a common ancestor with the more widespread subclades of L-M22 less than 26,000 years ago.

[wgjkkwjkf]

Until I started categorizing the HG and HGDP samples, I didn't realize how much H or C and O there is. But forreal there is A LOT of H. I know nothing about H at all LOL.

I think there is likely to be a lot more H in Pakistan than shown by the studies so far because many groups there have not been tested.

[BMG]

Thats a very rare subclade in India, what caste was he?

Most Indians & Baluchis belong to L1a-M76 like myself, and the greatest L diversity now is in Southwestern Pakistan

Kalash mostly belong to L1c
We are Christians .
Though rare L1c seems to have some diversity in South India . There is also a L1c paniya tribal sample which seems to have diverged earlier than other South Asian lines in a mostly South Asian subgroup . The other subgroup too have South asians but have more gulf Arabs and chechens

[wgjkkwjkf]

We are Christians .
Though rare L1c seems to have some diversity in South India . There is also a L1c paniya tribal sample which seems to have diverged earlier than other South Asian lines in yfull

Do you know which group you belonged to before becoming Christians?

[wgjkkwjkf]

Also, all the Punjabi Arains I've seen (only 4) have mtDNA J1

They might have been related in some way?

[BMG]

Do you know which group you belonged to before becoming Christians?
No .My ancestors probably have converted almost 1000 years back .

[bmoney]

Looks like I'm out of a job, boys!

Nah Khana, your rotating 3d-pcas are the real deal, the rest are fakes/haterz

[bmoney]

No .My ancestors probably have converted almost 1000 years back .

I'm not surprised that theres L diversification in India - its old in South Asia so would have drifted quite a bit from the European clades

I'm guessing you guys are Syrian Christians - in the Hindu caste system of southern Kerala you guys are considered high caste

My family is from north Kerala, the area is mostly Hindus and Muslims

Do the Knanaya people differ genetically?

[BMG]

I'm not surprised that theres L diversification in India - its old in South Asia so would have drifted quite a bit from the European clades

I'm guessing you guys are Syrian Christians - in the Hindu caste system of southern Kerala you guys are considered high caste

My family is from north Kerala, the area is mostly Hindus and Muslims

Do the Knanaya people differ genetically?

Knanaya seems to have slightly higher Caucasus and sw Asian in Harappa world with lower South Indian . But there are non knanaya with similar levels too . So I don't have a clear answer

[khanabadoshi]

They might have been related in some way?

I actually believe they are related. Cousins, I think. I'll have to check.

[khanabadoshi]

I think there is likely to be a lot more H in Pakistan than shown by the studies so far because many groups there have not been tested.

There is a lot of H, many of the Punjabi in Lahore samples are H.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Can we discuss the home of L here? It's a very old haplogroup. Where do the most L men live today? India or Pakistan? However, did it originate there, or as in the case perhaps of Y hg R1a/b did it originate outside of it's present day zones of high density?

My favoured home of L is Western Asia, in a band between Syria and Pakistan. The reason is that it is there that I see the highest frequency of older variations.

Where did the L1 / L2 divergence occur?

Today L1 is dispersed between Southern Asia, Central Asia, Western Asia, and Europe.
The ultra rare L2 is only found in Europe (Sardinia, UK, etc), with it's furthest eastern records so far in Azerbaijan and Tatarstan.

Where did the L1a / L1b divergence occur?

Today L1a is dispersed between Southern Asia, Central Asia, and South West Asia. Although best known in South Asia, It reaches westwards into Arabia and the Levant. The only ancient DNA recovered so far was Copper Age at Birds Eye Cave in Armenia, on the north west edge of it's current range. We have all heard the rumours of samples to come out of Indus Valley.
L1b on the other hand looks more western. It has a variety of sub clades in Central Asia, South West Asia, and in Europe. I know that South Asia is under sampled but does L1b have much of a presence there?

Conventional wisdom, based on present density, suggests India / Pakistan to be the home of L, and indeed, this is usually supported by vendors of direct DNA testing-to-the-consumer. To my amateur eyes though, these early deviations appear to take place more in that band between Syria and Pakistan, possibly focusing on Iraq / Iran.

It could be that I'm seeing this with the bias of a western perspective, or the bias that my personal sub clade appears to hail from that zone. Apologies if that is the case.

Thoughts?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Additionally, can we tie any of the early divergences in L to climatic events such as the LGM, warming periods, etc. Can we tie anything in addition to early agricultural activity?

[bmoney]

Can we discuss the home of L here? It's a very old haplogroup. Where do the most L men live today? India or Pakistan? However, did it originate there, or as in the case perhaps of Y hg R1a/b did it originate outside of it's present day zones of high density?

My favoured home of L is Western Asia, in a band between Syria and Pakistan. The reason is that it is there that I see the highest frequency of older variations.

Where did the L1 / L2 divergence occur?

Today L1 is dispersed between Southern Asia, Central Asia, Western Asia, and Europe.
The ultra rare L2 is only found in Europe (Sardinia, UK, etc), with it's furthest eastern records so far in Azerbaijan and Tatarstan.

Where did the L1a / L1b divergence occur?

Today L1a is dispersed between Southern Asia, Central Asia, and South West Asia. Although best known in South Asia, It reaches westwards into Arabia and the Levant. The only ancient DNA recovered so far was Copper Age at Birds Eye Cave in Armenia, on the north west edge of it's current range. We have all heard the rumours of samples to come out of Indus Valley.
L1b on the other hand looks more western. It has a variety of sub clades in Central Asia, South West Asia, and in Europe. I know that South Asia is under sampled but does L1b have much of a presence there?

Conventional wisdom, based on present density, suggests India / Pakistan to be the home of L, and indeed, this is usually supported by vendors of direct DNA testing-to-the-consumer. To my amateur eyes though, these early deviations appear to take place more in that band between Syria and Pakistan, possibly focusing on Iraq / Iran.

It could be that I'm seeing this with the bias of a western perspective, or the bias that my personal sub clade appears to hail from that zone. Apologies if that is the case.

Thoughts?

L1b is not found in South Asia from what i've seen so far. The easternmost distribution is Makranis who have low levels of it, Afghan Pashtuns and Uzbeks

Interestingly L1b reaches 42% among the Kartvelian Laz people which is the highest % of L among any non-bottlenecked/village populations worldwide apart from Parsi Priests like Jesus and Afshar Turks- not sure if these populations are founder effected though. The Laz people are geographically close to Areni-1

EDIT:
If we want to find the point of greatest diversity, we need to find the area with the most subclades at around equal or similar proportions - so far for L1 that place looks like Iran

where in Iran I can't say until we get better samples

L2 - have no idea where this could be

South Asia is definitely not the home of L so the DNA testing vendors are being intellectually lazy:
L1b hardly makes a presence in South Asia apart from the fringes
We would have seen Roma like autosomal signatures coming to Ls outside South Asia with the founders, which is not the case

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Another interesting sub clade is L-M349 (L1b1). That appears to be the most western L1 sub clade, with clusters in Europe, as well as the Levant and Arabian Gulf. I wonder when that one entered Europe? I think much later than L-L595 (L2). It's the most common L in Europe.

[bmoney]

Another interesting sub clade is L-M349 (L1b1). That appears to be the most western L1 sub clade, with clusters in Europe, as well as the Levant and Arabian Gulf. I wonder when that one entered Europe? I think much later than L-L595 (L2). It's the most common L in Europe.

Would you know which modern population has the highest frequency of L1b1?

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Absolutely no idea. In Europe L-M349 forms the Rhine-Danube-Volga cluster. It also appears along the European Med, with I believe a bit of a spike in Italy, then around to Portugal. I thought that there were stats somewhere, where L actually pops up as a percentage in an Italian district. However, it is also found in the Levant, Armenia, Turkey, and Arabia. Very much the Western Branch of L1. I have also elsewhere seen it sometimes associated with Ashkenazi lines.

[bmoney]

Absolutely no idea. In Europe L-M349 forms the Rhine-Danube-Volga cluster. It also appears along the European Med, with I believe a bit of a spike in Italy, then around to Portugal. I thought that there were stats somewhere, where L actually pops up as a percentage in an Italian district. However, it is also found in the Levant, Armenia, Turkey, and Arabia. Very much the Western Branch of L1. I have also elsewhere seen it sometimes associated with Ashkenazi lines.

Yep northern Italy particularly Fascia at 20% - probably linked to a Rhine-Danube cluster founder

Also fairly significant levels in other northern Italian provinces

Probably brought to Europe by Levant farmers

[vettor]

Yep northern Italy particularly Fascia at 20% - probably linked to a Rhine-Danube cluster founder

Also fairly significant levels in other northern Italian provinces

Probably brought to Europe by Levant farmers

Speak to Chris at ftdna alpine project and he will tell you about the L (ydna ) below

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

[bmoney]

Speak to Chris at ftdna alpine project and he will tell you about the L (ydna ) below

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

Thanks vettor

How do I find the contact details?

[vettor]

Thanks vettor

How do I find the contact details?

[email protected]

[bmoney]

Highest frequency - feel free to add to this:

L - subclade? - Korava - Dravidian Scheduled Tribe - 68%
L1b - Laz people - Kartvelian - 42%
L = subclade? = Afshar Turks - Turkic - 57%
L1a - Baloch - NW Iranian - 28%? - some of this is L1c
L1c - Kalash - Dardic - 25%
L - subclade? - Iranian Zoroastrian Priests - SW Iranian - 55%
L - subclade? - Raqqah Syrians (Chechen ancestry) - Caucasian - 51%
L - subclade? - Jats (all religions) - Indo-Aryan - 37%

[parasar]

Thanks vettor

How do I find the contact details?

I would also add that vettor has may insights on the T side - and to look for the origin of L, you really have to comprehensively look at L, T, LT, and K2.

[Ebizur]

I would also add that vettor has may insights on the T side - and to look for the origin of L, you really have to comprehensively look at L, T, LT, and K2.Not really. There appears to be a tremendous temporal gap between the MRCA of K1 and K2 (TMRCA 45,400 [95% CI 41,400 <-> 49,600] ybp according to YFull YTree v5.07) or the MRCA of L and T (TMRCA 42,600 [95% CI 39,700 <-> 45,500] ybp) on the one hand versus the MRCA of L1 and L2 (TMRCA 23,200 [95% CI 20,900 <-> 25,600] ybp) or the MRCA of all extant members of haplogroup T (TMRCA 26,900 [95% CI 24,500 <-> 29,300] ybp) on the other hand. Because there is a gap of at least 10,000 years between the MRCA of L and T and the MRCA of all extant T, one could not confidently infer the region of origin of L, K1, or K from the place of origin of the MRCA of extant T even if one were able to know the latter with perfect precision and certainty.

[parasar]

Not really. There appears to be a tremendous temporal gap between the MRCA of K1 and K2 (TMRCA 45,400 [95% CI 41,400 <-> 49,600] ybp according to YFull YTree v5.07) or the MRCA of L and T (TMRCA 42,600 [95% CI 39,700 <-> 45,500] ybp) on the one hand versus the MRCA of L1 and L2 (TMRCA 23,200 [95% CI 20,900 <-> 25,600] ybp) or the MRCA of all extant members of haplogroup T (TMRCA 26,900 [95% CI 24,500 <-> 29,300] ybp) on the other hand. Because there is a gap of at least 10,000 years between the MRCA of L and T and the MRCA of all extant T, even could not confidently infer the region of origin of L, K1, or K from the place of origin of the MRCA of extant T even if one were able to know the latter with perfect precision and certainty.

I had mentioned origin of L, not L1 or L2. To look for the origin of L, IMO it is best to look to sister and cousin clades of L rather than daughter ones.

[Ebizur]

I had mentioned origin of L, not L1 or L2. To look for the origin of L, IMO it is best to look to sister and cousin clades of L rather than daughter ones.And that is what I have implied with my negatory response: looking to the sister and cousin clades of haplogroup L will not serve your purpose of identifying the region of origin of extant haplogroup L. There is too great a temporal gap between the MRCA of T and L and the MRCA of L1 and L2 for the location of the former to have any bearing on the location of the latter. The MRCA of T and L has lived during or slightly after the era of the spread of C and F Y-DNA throughout Eurasia and into Oceania. The MRCA of L1 and L2 (in other words, the MRCA of all known extant members of haplogroup L) has lived less than 26,000 ybp, or probably about 20,000 years after the MRCA of L and T. The locations of L's sister and cousin clades are simply irrelevant to the question of the location of the MRCA of L1 and L2.

[parasar]

And that is what I have implied with my negatory response: looking to the sister and cousin clades of haplogroup L will not serve your purpose of identifying the region of origin of extant haplogroup L. There is too great a temporal gap between the MRCA of T and L and the MRCA of L1 and L2 for the location of the former to have any bearing on the location of the latter. The MRCA of T and L has lived during or slightly after the era of the spread of C and F Y-DNA throughout Eurasia and into Oceania. The MRCA of L1 and L2 (in other words, the MRCA of all known extant members of haplogroup L) has lived less than 26,000 ybp, or probably about 20,000 years after the MRCA of L and T. The locations of L's sister and cousin clades are simply irrelevant to the question of the location of the MRCA of L1 and L2.

Extant L, where did I say that? Place of origin of L is what is at issue. I don't think there is that much of a temporal gap between the origins of L and T, or K2.

[Ebizur]

Extant L, where did I say that. Place of origin of L is what is at issue.I'm sorry, parasar, but why should anyone care about the place of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)L?

By definition, the location of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)L is identical to the location of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)T immediately after their genealogical split (with the exception of any mobility on the part of their parents). You are correct insomuch as the estimated interclade TMRCA of L and T is not significantly different from the estimated intraclade TMRCA of extant K2 or the estimated interclade TMRCA of K1 and K2. However, as I have mentioned in my previous reply to you, these splits appear to have occurred during the process of the initial range expansion of populations bearing F (probably also C, and perhaps even D) Y-DNA over Eurasia and Oceania.

[parasar]

I'm sorry, parasar, but why should anyone care about the place of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)L?

By definition, the location of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)L is identical to the location of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)T immediately after their genealogical split (with the exception of any mobility on the part of their parents). You are correct insomuch as the estimated interclade TMRCA of L and T is not significantly different from the estimated intraclade TMRCA of extant K2 or the estimated interclade TMRCA of K1 and K2. However, as I have mentioned in my previous reply to you, these splits appear to have occurred during the process of the initial range expansion of populations bearing F (probably also C, and perhaps even D) Y-DNA over Eurasia and Oceania.

Ebizur,
It is not the question of why one should care about the question or issue, but the question itself. When one looks to find the origin of R, we are not looking from the point of view of extant R1a or R1b or R2, which indeed may be more relevant to present day populations. While it is true that these L,T, K2 splits are remote, and yes not that separated from F and C, but it is still of interest.

[Ebizur]

Ebizur,
It is not the question of why one should care about the question or issue, but the question itself.Pray tell, just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


When one looks to find the origin of R, we are not looking from the point of view of extant R1a or R1b or R2, which indeed may be more relevant to present day populations.I am not so sure about that. I think the standard "received view" of this matter is that the origin of "haplogroup R" is defined as the origin of the MRCA of all extant members of haplogroup R (i.e. those who are positive for all SNPs taken to define "haplogroup R") and not the origin of the MRCA of haplogroup R and its nearest outgroup (i.e. haplogroup Q), which would rather be the origin of haplogroup P1-M45. Of course, if anyone whose lineage has branched off between the MRCA of haplogroup R and haplogroup Q and the MRCA of haplogroup R1 and haplogroup R2 is found (and such a lineage has been found in the case of the Mal'ta specimen), then present haplogroup R1 and haplogroup R2 technically ought to be renamed R1a and R1b, and the lineage of the Mal'ta specimen ought to be named R2, but that would be too confusing and labile; hence, the current fashion of using only SNP-based names without an alphanumeric equivalent.


While it is true that these L,T, K2 splits are remote, and yes not that separated from F and C, but it is still of interest.I do not see any evidence to suggest that the MRCA of L and T (and, thus, his two sons, ur-L and ur-T) should be considered separately from the spread of members of IJK-M2682 in general.

[GarethH]

Absolutely no idea. In Europe L-M349 forms the Rhine-Danube-Volga cluster. It also appears along the European Med, with I believe a bit of a spike in Italy, then around to Portugal. I thought that there were stats somewhere, where L actually pops up as a percentage in an Italian district. However, it is also found in the Levant, Armenia, Turkey, and Arabia. Very much the Western Branch of L1. I have also elsewhere seen it sometimes associated with Ashkenazi lines.

L-M349 appears to have had a massive expansion from a single line around 7,000 years ago, with (at least) three major branches: L-FGC36845 (southern Europe, with many sub branches), L-B374 (Rhine-Danube-Volga) and L-Y31183 (Lebanon). Each of these branches has its own story. I used to think Rhine-Danube must have come up over the Alps from Italy but now we have one academic and two commercial samples from Volga Tatars, a route north from Iran and then westwards north of the Black Sea seems more likely. There is a Big Y test in progress for a southern German L-B374 so we may know a bit more in a month or two.

[A Norfolk L-M20]

Thanks @GarethH. Have you ascertained anything else this past few years on the FT-DNA Y haplogroup L project? Anything perhaps on L1a, or in L-PH8? I'm glad to see that L-SK1414 has grown so much so quick.

[vettor]

I would also add that vettor has may insights on the T side - and to look for the origin of L, you really have to comprehensively look at L, T, LT, and K2.

Its no longer K2 ..........renamed in 2014 to K1 ...........K1a = L and K1b = T

[parasar]

Its no longer K2 ..........renamed in 2014 to K1 ...........K1a = L and K1b = T

Yes thanks. By K2 I was referring to the non LT group. But yes finding K1* would be helpful.

[bmoney]

New Paper with reference to L in Mesopotamia. Highest frequency in the Yazidis (L1b)

11 different haplogroups were observed in Yazidis, with the three most common being R1b (20.79%), L (11.88%) and G2a / J2a1x J2a1b/h (10.89%)

L was other quite small in proportion in other ethnic groups, mostly L1a with some L1b and L1c

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0187408

[Anabasis]

New Paper with reference to L in Mesopotamia. Highest frequency in the Yazidis (L1b)

11 different haplogroups were observed in Yazidis, with the three most common being R1b (20.79%), L (11.88%) and G2a / J2a1x J2a1b/h (10.89%)

L was other quite small in proportion in other ethnic groups, mostly L1a with some L1b and L1c

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0187408
Yezidi Ls are L1b and most probably most of them are under L1b>m349. Other L in the paper have diverse subs groups. Arabs arenmostly L1a some turkmens might have PH8 (most probably they are descenants of exiled turkmen tribes from ottoman empire from inner anatolia)

[GarethH]

Yezidi Ls are L1b and most probably most of them are under L1b>m349. Other L in the paper have diverse subs groups. Arabs arenmostly L1a some turkmens might have PH8 (most probably they are descenants of exiled turkmen tribes from ottoman empire from inner anatolia)

Almost all the Yazidi L's are closely related to each other within L-M349 as there is a strong modal haplotype. There is one clear outlier Yz-M-106 who might not even be L-M349. The possible L-M27's are very diverse, I think the diversity in L-M27 decreases as you go east into South Asia even as the population % increases (same "wave of advance" effect as European R1b in the opposite direction).

[bmoney]

Almost all the Yazidi L's are closely related to each other within L-M349 as there is a strong modal haplotype. There is one clear outlier Yz-M-106 who might not even be L-M349. The possible L-M27's are very diverse, I think the diversity in L-M27 decreases as you go east into South Asia even as the population % increases (same "wave of advance" effect as European R1b in the opposite direction).

Yep, R1a1a is also similar in South Asia

[Arlus]

..deleted..

[bmoney]

From the latest South and Central Asia paper ancient L1a's (finally).

I extracted all the L1as, unfortunately undifferentiated. My theory is that the Uzbek samples were L1a2 and the Pakistan ones were L1a1:


I5604 K1a1 L1a Bustan_BA 1880-1697 calBCE (3465±20 BP, PSUAMS-2774) Uzbekistan
S10001.E1.L1 R30b1 L1a Loebanr_IA 1300-1000 BCE Pakistan
S10974.Y1.E1.L1 .. L1a Loebanr_IA 900-800 BCE Pakistan
I6555 M4 L1a Loebanr_IA 906-820 calBCE (2720±20 BP, PSUAMS-2797) Pakistan
I6554 T2g1 L1a Loebanr_IA_father.I6292 831-796 calBCE (2645±20 BP, PSUAMS-2796) Pakistan
I8220 .. L1a Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all 970-550 BCE Pakistan
S7721.E1.L1 R6b L1a Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I4285 U7a3 L1a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1873-1661 calBCE (3430±25 BP, PSUAMS-2536) Uzbekistan
I5604 K1a1 L1a Bustan_BA 1880-1697 calBCE (3465±20 BP, PSUAMS-2774) Uzbekistan
S10001.E1.L1 R30b1 L1a Loebanr_IA 1300-1000 BCE Pakistan
S10974.Y1.E1.L1 .. L1a Loebanr_IA 900-800 BCE Pakistan
I6555 M4 L1a Loebanr_IA 906-820 calBCE (2720±20 BP, PSUAMS-2797) Pakistan
I6554 T2g1 L1a Loebanr_IA_father.I6292 831-796 calBCE (2645±20 BP, PSUAMS-2796) Pakistan
I8220 .. L1a Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all 970-550 BCE Pakistan
S7721.E1.L1 R6b L1a Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I4285 U7a3 L1a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1873-1661 calBCE (3430±25 BP, PSUAMS-2536) Uzbekistan

[bmoney]

Elite Hun from Hungary DA85 L-M27/L1a1 belonging to subclade L-Y31213 mtdna U4

The only L correlation with genome I can find is the fact that they are modelled as 1/4 Baloch who are high in L-M27.

Otherwise the individual seems to be half Sarmatian half Atlaic Hun

Gedmatch kit: Z710382 (its not running for me)

K15 Oracle4 for DA85:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tatar @ 18.311073
2 Chuvash @ 25.314087
3 Nogay @ 25.758036
4 Tadjik @ 26.459642
5 Afghan_Turkmen @ 27.472700
6 Mari @ 28.496529
7 Moldavian @ 28.746031
8 Croatian @ 30.691805
9 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 30.730938
10 Hungarian @ 30.779825
11 Uzbeki @ 30.980347
12 Erzya @ 31.049278
13 Kargopol_Russian @ 31.099756
14 Tabassaran @ 31.103912
15 Afghan_Tadjik @ 31.205748
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 31.346106
17 South_Polish @ 32.007481
18 Serbian @ 32.055676
19 Southwest_Russian @ 32.204113
20 Ukrainian @ 32.270454

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Finnish +50% Tadjik @ 10.547200

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Chuvash +25% Makrani +25% Norwegian @ 9.917451

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran + Tadjik @ 8.085356
2 Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran + Tadjik @ 8.150370
3 Finnish + Mari + Tabassaran + Tadjik @ 8.165405
4 Afghan_Pashtun + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran @ 8.298489
5 Kalash + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 8.307493
6 Afghan_Pashtun + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 8.357798
7 Kalash + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran @ 8.363769
8 Afghan_Pashtun + Finnish + Mari + Tabassaran @ 8.395761
9 Burusho + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 8.432208
10 East_Finnish + Mari + Tabassaran + Tadjik @ 8.436080
11 Brahui + Chuvash + Mari + Norwegian @ 8.457118
12 Brahui + Chuvash + Irish + Mari @ 8.490207
13 Balochi + Chuvash + Mari + Norwegian @ 8.514278
14 Balochi + Chuvash + Irish + Mari @ 8.518743
15 Finnish + Kalash + Mari + Tabassaran @ 8.569997
16 Burusho + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran @ 8.589872
17 Brahui + Chuvash + Mari + West_Scottish @ 8.613857
18 Balochi + Chuvash + Mari + North_German @ 8.639964
19 Balochi + Chuvash + Mari + West_Scottish @ 8.644436
20 Brahui + Chuvash + Chuvash + Norwegian @ 8.644952

MDLP K16

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.5% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 38.5% Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) @ 7.86
2 71.7% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 28.3% Jatt (Haryana) @ 7.91
3 75.1% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 24.9% Burusho (Pakistan) @ 7.95
4 60.6% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 39.4% Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) @ 8.02
5 59.4% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 40.6% Shugnan (Badachshan) @ 8.05


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Shugnan_Badachshan +25% Tubalar_(Altai) +25% Vepsa_Russia @ 6.442919


Punt k12

1 Balochi + Estonian + Lezgin + Selkup @ 4.662281
2 Balochi + Lezgin + Lithuanian + Selkup @ 4.662537
3 Brahui + Estonian + Lezgin + Selkup @ 4.796335
4 Brahui + Lezgin + Lithuanian + Selkup @ 4.799502
5 Estonian + Lezgin + Makrani + Selkup @ 4.888319
6 Balochi + Lithuanian + North_Ossetian + Selkup @ 4.915496

Nmonte from @Shaikorth

Hunnic_Hungary_scaled:DA85

Sarmatian_Pokrovka 50.70
Hunnic_Tien_Shan:DA101 23.05
Altai_IA 17.95
Udmurt 5.85
Tajik 2.45
Tabasaran 0.00
Lithuanian 0.00
Finnish 0.00
Nordic_IA 0.00
Slavic_Bohemia 0.00
Germany_Medieval 0.00

[Kambo]

Proto Elamite Dravidian IVC Kura araxes unity! :P

Btw, The Parsi priest class(formed after their arrival to India) are around 55% Y-DNA L(mostly L1b with a smaller amount of L1a)

This makes sense. There it is.

[Caspian]

L1b is still absent in Ancient DNA... :(

[bmoney]

Via our T clade cousin Vettor an update on LT:

The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304. Moreover, like J1-M267 and J2-M172, L-M20 and T-M184 probably co-evolved in Southwest Asia co-expanded into adjacent regions during the Neolithic. It should be noted that the evolution of L-M20 in South Asia, as suggested by some studies, is inconsistent with the genetic and archaeological evidence. Rather, data suggest that the Neolithic farmers of Southwest Asia must have been a population in Anatolia having of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M304 and LT-L298. When these farmers expanded out of Anatolia, their genes and languages followed. The linguistic relics of this expansion include Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European and Dravidian languages. As such, the Early Farming Dispersal Hypothesis provides a robust model of prehistoric language dispersals. From a big picture genetic perspective, LT-L298, G-M201, E-M96 played important supporting roles in the Southwest Asian Neolithic expansion, whereas the main actor was clearly J-M304.

http://www.genlinginterface.com/updates/update-for-l-m20-and-t-m184/

Based on the above paragraph, haplogroups are defined by a complex interplay of
phylogenetic distance, evolutionary history, expansion history, and the archaeological record.
The data for L-M20 and T-M184 indicate that their evolutionary and expansion history mimic
that of the J1-M267 and J2-M172. As such, they should be considered subclades of a new
LT-L298 haplogroup. Furthermore, the data suggest that although the archeological,
evolutionary, and expansion history of Haplogroups J-M304, G-M201 and LT-L298 are
strikingly similar, they are, nevertheless, defined as haplogroups because of phylogenetic
distance.

Relationship to SW Asia and similarity to y-J and G:

An important observation
comes from these data: the distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304
(see Section 5.10 and Table 5.10.1). Populations with LT-L298 and J-M304 are found in the
Southwest Asia, the Caucasus, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, South Asia, Central
Asia, and East Asia. Thus, the data point to a prehistoric population in Anatolia with variants
of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M204 and LT-L298. Then, during the Southwest Asian
Neolithic, something occurred that resulted in a very rapid star-like dispersal of both genes
and farming from the Black Sea.
It should be emphasized that the co-evolution of L-M20 and T-M184 in Southwest
Asia, and their Neolithic expansion from this region, are supported by ancient DNA data.
Lazaridis et al. (2016) reported the discovery of L1a-M27 from three ancient DNA samples
taken from Areni cave in southern Armenia. These samples are about six thousand years old,
and as such, date to the Neolithic. Additionally, the same study reports the discovery of a TM184
sample from an individual that died almost ten thousand years ago at Ain Ghazal
settlement in Jordan, remains that also date to the Neolithic. Finally, a T1a-M70 sample was
found at a Neolithic Linearbandkeramik site in Karsdorf, Germany, which dates to about
seven thousand years ago (Haak et al. 2015)

In order to identify the region where L-M20 evolved, researchers should consider the
overall distribution of LT-L298 variation. L-M20 and T-M184 mutations (see Tables 5.11.1
and 5.11.2) are found in Turkey, Lebanon, and in the Caucasus, and as such, in close
geographical proximity to the source population that expanded during the Southwest Asian
Neolithic. Furthermore, as explained previously in Section 5.11.2, the distribution of LTL298
in Eurasia and Africa roughly follows that of J-M304. Finally, as previously noted
(5.11.2), much of the L-M20 and T-M184 diversification occurred during the Neolithic.

L and T are actually subclades of LT not individual haplogroups, LT is the haplogroup:

Contrary
to the standard nomenclature, the data suggest that LT-L298 represents a haplogroup rather
than higher level paragroup mutation. Furthermore, contrary to the standard YCC 2002
nomenclature, L-M20 and T-M184 are not haplogroups. Rather, the data suggest that they are
subclades within a new LT-L298 haplogroup

[vettor]

Via our T clade cousin Vettor an update on LT:

The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304. Moreover, like J1-M267 and J2-M172, L-M20 and T-M184 probably co-evolved in Southwest Asia co-expanded into adjacent regions during the Neolithic. It should be noted that the evolution of L-M20 in South Asia, as suggested by some studies, is inconsistent with the genetic and archaeological evidence. Rather, data suggest that the Neolithic farmers of Southwest Asia must have been a population in Anatolia having of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M304 and LT-L298. When these farmers expanded out of Anatolia, their genes and languages followed. The linguistic relics of this expansion include Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European and Dravidian languages. As such, the Early Farming Dispersal Hypothesis provides a robust model of prehistoric language dispersals. From a big picture genetic perspective, LT-L298, G-M201, E-M96 played important supporting roles in the Southwest Asian Neolithic expansion, whereas the main actor was clearly J-M304.

http://www.genlinginterface.com/updates/update-for-l-m20-and-t-m184/

Interesting, the paper is also suggesting J1 and J2 fall within LT

Based on the above paragraph, haplogroups are defined by a complex interplay of
phylogenetic distance, evolutionary history, expansion history, and the archaeological record.
The data for L-M20 and T-M184 indicate that their evolutionary and expansion history mimic
that of the J1-M267 and J2-M172. As such, they should be considered subclades of a new
LT-L298 haplogroup. Furthermore, the data suggest that although the archeological,
evolutionary, and expansion history of Haplogroups J-M304, G-M201 and LT-L298 are
strikingly similar, they are, nevertheless, defined as haplogroups because of phylogenetic
distance.

Relationship to SW Asia and similarity to y-J and G:

An important observation
comes from these data: the distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304
(see Section 5.10 and Table 5.10.1). Populations with LT-L298 and J-M304 are found in the
Southwest Asia, the Caucasus, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, South Asia, Central
Asia, and East Asia. Thus, the data point to a prehistoric population in Anatolia with variants
of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M204 and LT-L298. Then, during the Southwest Asian
Neolithic, something occurred that resulted in a very rapid star-like dispersal of both genes
and farming from the Black Sea.
It should be emphasized that the co-evolution of L-M20 and T-M184 in Southwest
Asia, and their Neolithic expansion from this region, are supported by ancient DNA data.
Lazaridis et al. (2016) reported the discovery of L1a-M27 from three ancient DNA samples
taken from Areni cave in southern Armenia. These samples are about six thousand years old,
and as such, date to the Neolithic. Additionally, the same study reports the discovery of a TM184
sample from an individual that died almost ten thousand years ago at Ain Ghazal
settlement in Jordan, remains that also date to the Neolithic. Finally, a T1a-M70 sample was
found at a Neolithic Linearbandkeramik site in Karsdorf, Germany, which dates to about
seven thousand years ago (Haak et al. 2015)

In order to identify the region where L-M20 evolved, researchers should consider the
overall distribution of LT-L298 variation. L-M20 and T-M184 mutations (see Tables 5.11.1
and 5.11.2) are found in Turkey, Lebanon, and in the Caucasus, and as such, in close
geographical proximity to the source population that expanded during the Southwest Asian
Neolithic. Furthermore, as explained previously in Section 5.11.2, the distribution of LTL298
in Eurasia and Africa roughly follows that of J-M304. Finally, as previously noted
(5.11.2), much of the L-M20 and T-M184 diversification occurred during the Neolithic.

L and T are actually subclades of LT not individual haplogroups, LT is the haplogroup:

Contrary
to the standard nomenclature, the data suggest that LT-L298 represents a haplogroup rather
than higher level paragroup mutation. Furthermore, contrary to the standard YCC 2002
nomenclature, L-M20 and T-M184 are not haplogroups. Rather, the data suggest that they are
subclades within a new LT-L298 haplogroup

in yfull 6.03 tree
there are 30 SNP's for haplogroup LT

[Jatt1]

Elite Hun from Hungary DA85 L-M27/L1a1 belonging to subclade L-Y31213 mtdna U4

The only L correlation with genome I can find is the fact that they are modelled as 1/4 Baloch who are high in L-M27.

Otherwise the individual seems to be half Sarmatian half Atlaic Hun

I bought livingdna kits one came back with L-M27, no downstream subclad, may be they don't even test for any, I am now trying to solve the puzzle. I think livingdna test is not suitable for south Asians but is good for Europeans only.

[bmoney]

I bought livingdna kits one cane back with L-M27, no downstream subclad, may be they don't even test for one, I am now trying to solve the puzzle. I think livingdna test is not suitable for south Asians but is good for Europeans only.

Livingdna has questionable autosomal ancestry due to low overlap with calculators, but their y-dna testing is fine.

L1a1 (L-M27) is more commonly found in Pahari Jatts among Jatts I've noticed

@Sapporo's spreadsheet shows that Sikh Jatts are mainly L1a2 (L-M357) but there was one or two L1a1 Sikh Jatts.

[Jatt1]

Livingdna has questionable autosomal ancestry due to low overlap with calculators, but their y-dna testing is fine.

L1a1 (L-M27) is more commonly found in Pahari Jatts among Jatts I've noticed

@Sapporo's spreadsheet shows that Sikh Jatts are mainly L1a2 (L-M357) but there was one or two L1a1 Sikh Jatts.

Could be true, but in this case person is from Jullundur, but why stop at M27 when threre are so many subclads downstream.

[bmoney]

Could be true, but in this case person is from Jullundur, but why stop at M27 when threre are so many subclads downstream.

Do it, id be interested.

I don't know much about L1a1 subclades. Heres the ftdna page for more information:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults

[vettor]

for curiosity...my LT-L298 and others from Yfull my report .................did not snip all T and beyond, nor above GHIJK

https://s20.postimg.cc/ods829aul/lt-l298forme.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/o10tw2skp/)

I have many SNP's as positive for LT haplogroup

wondering if there is much difference with others

[sultan]

28487
The lack of Arabic results is a direct cause of the lack of Rio lines in line L.
This site relies entirely on yfull results only

[bmoney]

haplogroup L found amongst the Philistines (1/4 y sequenced), Ashkelon Iron Age sample 87!

https://i.imgur.com/Awet34e.png

scored like this, mostly Levant_N (~70%) with the rest Iran Chl (~30%) and no WHG. My bet is the L is via the Iran_Chl like component

https://i.imgur.com/AiSEU8U.png

[Aquilifer]

There was an L1 found in the new Viking study from medieval southern Italy. He's roughly 5/8 Southern European/Italian-like and 3/8 Northern European, with the majority of that being Polish-like.

VK538 (M)
Y-DNA L1a1b
mtDNA H+16291
62.6% Italian-like, 23.3% Polish-like, 6.8% British-like, 3.4% Norwegian-like, 3.3% Finnish-like, 0.4% Danish-like, 0.1% Swedish-like

[Kale]

That seems like an awful lot of mixtures. Is there any single location that would make sense for that?
Start with Italy, go a little North for British and Norwegian, then Eastward to get the Polish?
Austria? Hungary? Idk.

[aaronbee2010]

A South Indian on FTDNA just did a SNP test and he's the first person I've seen from South Asia who is M27+ and L1320-. Probably not significant to you guys but I thought it was still worth mentioning, perhaps?

His subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y133442*

All other Y13342+ people on FTDNA's L project except for him were also West Asian, however the first Y37 STR's didn't seem to differ that much from the others. He has 111 STR's but 37 is the lowest common denominator, all Y13342+ samples on the project have at least 37 STR's.

[jabdnor]

I'm a Lebanese Christian and I found out that I am L-M349. This is strange to me because I was expecting to be J1,J2,E1b1b, or other MENA y haplogroup.

[dmana]

It's not strange for a Lebanese to belong haplogroup L, most statistics that I've seen shows that around 5% of the Lebanese belong to this haplogroup, especially L-M317 of which L-M349 is a subgroup.

[bmoney]

A South Indian on FTDNA just did a SNP test and he's the first person I've seen from South Asia who is M27+ and L1320-. Probably not significant to you guys but I thought it was still worth mentioning, perhaps?

His subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y133442*

All other Y13342+ people on FTDNA's L project except for him were also West Asian, however the first Y37 STR's didn't seem to differ that much from the others. He has 111 STR's but 37 is the lowest common denominator, all Y13342+ samples on the project have at least 37 STR's.

nice, is he Hyderabadi or Syro-Malabar in ethnicity?

[aaronbee2010]

nice, is he Hyderabadi or Syro-Malabar in ethnicity?

Not a single clue lmao

I can PM you his name and you can try and guess for yourself lol

[misnomer]

Haplogroup L, L1, L1a, L1b etc. they are not South Asian. Biggest diversities of haplogroup L in Iraq, West Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and South Caucasus. Origin of L was near the Zagros, Mesopotamia, Levant or South Caucasus I guess. Oldest known haplogroup L samples are from Armenia and they don't have South Asian admixtures. Their autosomal genetics are mostly Caucasian+East Mediterranean+European, because L was carrier of Caucasian Hunter Gatherer type component (like J1 and J2) or East Mediterranean-Anatolian Farmer type component (like G2a).
L-M27 (L1a1) has TMRCA about ~4500 years in Indian subcontinent https://yfull.com/tree/L-M27/
while one of the 6000 years old ancient Armenian L samples belongs to L-M27. This case shows us that L-M27 is older in Caucasus than South Asia.

The bolded part (emphasis mine) is incorrect. Areni shows clear admixture from iran farmer like ancestry, geoksyur_en & sarazm_en show good fits in qpAdm. Noone knows if NW india/pak/afghan area had onge like admixture by 4500bce, possible that there was none.

Also, areni samples are not L but L1a1 ie L1-M27, the diversity of which is highest in NW india/pak/afg & South asia. So without any ancient samples from the region of South Asia prior to 4000bce, best not to make blanket statements which betray your bias. Shahr-i-sokhta has 1 sample which is L1a from around 2900bce, obviously it has nothing to do with Areni armenia as there is no EEHG (karelia_HG, present in Areni ArmeniaC samples) required for SiS.

So the hypothesis that L1a/L1a1 is not from South central asia is definitely NOT a settled matter.

qpAdm for Armenia_C
left pops:
Armenia_C
Steppe_Eneolithic - 25.9% +- 2.2%
Anatolia_N - 47.6% +-1.4%
Geoksyur_EN - 26.4% +- 2.3%
chisq: 20.39 tailprob: 0.11826 pass

result file (https://pastebin.com/tfncFGYk)

CHG was a part of the right pops, the model still passed.

[Arlus]

My Yseq results so far-
L-1307- G+
Y6288- G-
Z5919- C-

So my subclade isn't a part of any currently known braches?

[tipirneni]

My Yseq results so far-
L-1307- G+
Y6288- G-
Z5919- C-

So my subclade isn't a part of any currently known braches?

There is a Telugu sample (ITU), Sikh Punjab and an Irula sample on L-1307 in yfull

[aaronbee2010]

My Yseq results so far-
L-1307- G+
Y6288- G-
Z5919- C-

So my subclade isn't a part of any currently known braches?

YFull has a more developed tree than YSEQ, so there are other branches you may still come under. Here are two branches of L-L1307 (L-M357) that are Y6288- and Z5919- that have South Asian samples:

L-M2385 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M2385): One Irula sample (L-M2385*), one Sikh Punjabi sample (L-Y33989) and one Hindu sample (L-Y33989). L-Y33989 is the subclade directly below L-M2385.

L-BY198125 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-BY198125): One Telugu sample.

In reality, subclades are usually composed of more than one SNP. While unlikely, it is possible that you may be negative for some SNPs in a subclade and positive for some SNPs in that same subclade, so if you really wanted to concretely find out where you truly come under, the best way to know for sure is a sequence test, but these are expensive. If sequencing is not an option for you, then the cheapest option is to test for individual SNPs with YSEQ. To give you an idea of where to start, you could test for M2385. If M2385-, test for BY198125. If M2385+, test for Y33989. Once you receive the result either for BY198125 or Y33989, you could call it a day.

If these SNPs are not present on YSEQ store, you can add them for $1 or test for a SNP in the same subclade.

[Arlus]

YFull has a more developed tree than YSEQ, so there are other branches you may still come under. Here are two branches of L-L1307 (L-M357) that are Y6288- and Z5919- that have South Asian samples:

L-M2385 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M2385): One Irula sample (L-M2385*), one Sikh Punjabi sample (L-Y33989) and one Hindu sample (L-Y33989). L-Y33989 is the subclade directly below L-M2385.

L-BY198125 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-BY198125): One Telugu sample.

In reality, subclades are usually composed of more than one SNP. While unlikely, it is possible that you may be negative for some SNPs in a subclade and positive for some SNPs in that same subclade, so if you really wanted to concretely find out where you truly come under, the best way to know for sure is a sequence test, but these are expensive. If sequencing is not an option for you, then the cheapest option is to test for individual SNPs with YSEQ. To give you an idea of where to start, you could test for M2385. If M2385-, test for BY198125. If M2385+, test for Y33989. Once you receive the result either for BY198125 or Y33989, you could call it a day.

If these SNPs are not present on YSEQ store, you can add them for $1 or test for a SNP in the same subclade.

Thanks man I will try that. Out of all the SNPs they tested (it was a long list) , I am positive only for L1307

[Arlus]

YFull has a more developed tree than YSEQ, so there are other branches you may still come under. Here are two branches of L-L1307 (L-M357) that are Y6288- and Z5919- that have South Asian samples:

L-M2385 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M2385): One Irula sample (L-M2385*), one Sikh Punjabi sample (L-Y33989) and one Hindu sample (L-Y33989). L-Y33989 is the subclade directly below L-M2385.

L-BY198125 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-BY198125): One Telugu sample.

In reality, subclades are usually composed of more than one SNP. While unlikely, it is possible that you may be negative for some SNPs in a subclade and positive for some SNPs in that same subclade, so if you really wanted to concretely find out where you truly come under, the best way to know for sure is a sequence test, but these are expensive. If sequencing is not an option for you, then the cheapest option is to test for individual SNPs with YSEQ. To give you an idea of where to start, you could test for M2385. If M2385-, test for BY198125. If M2385+, test for Y33989. Once you receive the result either for BY198125 or Y33989, you could call it a day.

If these SNPs are not present on YSEQ store, you can add them for $1 or test for a SNP in the same subclade.

Alright, they have updated the panel and the tree with several new branches. I hope I get a subclade this time.

[aaronbee2010]

Alright, they have updated the panel and the tree with several new branches. I hope I get a subclade this time.

Are they going to run your sample with the new panel for free or do you have to pay again?

[Arlus]

Are they going to run your sample with the new panel for free or do you have to pay again?

It's for free I think. They will check me for the remaining branches you mentioned.

[Arlus]

I came out negative for all other branches as well-
BY199399- C-
M2398- T-
M2667- T-
Y44848- G-
So I do belong to a so far unknown subclade.
Maybe I should go for Y sequencing> Yfull route in (far) future.

[Sapporo]

I just got my basic FGC results (.vcf file) in for my L1a2. I'm coming under L-Y33989 per a friend of mine running my YSNP data. Still waiting on the BAM file to confirm though. Apparently, I share this clade with a Sikh Punjabi and Hindu on Yfull. Living DNA previously assigned me to L-Z5921, which for now seems like they missed the mark.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y33989/

[parasar]

I just got my basic FGC results (.vcf file) in for my L1a2. I'm coming under L-Y33989 per a friend of mine running my YSNP data. Still waiting on the BAM file to confirm though. Apparently, I share this clade with a Sikh Punjabi and Hindu on Yfull. Living DNA previously assigned me to L-Z5921, which for now seems like they missed the mark.

How did Living DNA make that assignment?

[Sapporo]

How did Living DNA make that assignment?

I'm not to be sure to be honest. If you see my Living DNA thread, I posted my Y-DNA chart from their site there.

Also, a friend ran the autosomal for the Punjabi Sikh that is positive for L-Y33989 on Y-full like me and their results/oracles suggest they're Jatt Sikh. Still waiting on the run for the Hindu sample who is L-Y33989. Curious if they're a Haryana/West UP Jatt, a Hindu Punjabi or perhaps neither?

[Sapporo]

As an update, a friend of mine helped me get on to y-full and confirmed that I am positive for 14/17 Y33989 SNPs per my BAM file from FGC.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M2398/


Was just browsing papers regarding L-M357/L1a2:


Global distribution of NRY-HG-L1a2(M357) To learn about the origin and dispersal of the NRY-HGL1a2(M357) clade, we performed a global analysis of the samples from the Genographic study along with those from the literature (Table 1). The population wise L1a2(M357) frequency estimates revealed that this clade was present in only 63 of the total 180 populations (251 of 3327 samples) studied in the Genographic study, and these were distributed irrespective of caste/tribe divide, or language family, and there was no definite correlation to any of the proxies considered (Supplementary Table 3). Nonetheless, there were regional concentrations of this clade (Figure 2).

In the spatial distribution frequency map of NRY-HGL1a2 (M357), we identified two areas of concentration in India: one in Jammu, Punjab, and northern Pakistan/Afghanistan regions; and another in southern India, comprising Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Karnataka (Figure 2). While the first one showed appreciable population specific expansion, the latter one revealed a scanty and patchy picture, with one or two samples in most populations (Figure 2; Table 1). The high frequency in the first one, Jammu (28.96%), was influenced by the higher frequencies in Buddhist Brokpa (69%), Islamic Brokpa (38%), Balti (33%) and Dardi Muslims (24%) (Table 1). Similar population specific expansions were also observed in the Chaudry of Himachal (40%), Jatt Sikh of Punjab (35%), Jatts of Rajasthan (28%) and Kalash and Burusho (41% and 30%) of Pakistan (Table 1; Supplementary Table 3). Interestingly, among Brahmin populations, there were two groups: one comprising Dogra Brahmin of Jammu, Saraswath Brahmin of Rajasthan and Havyaka Brahmin of Karnataka, possessing appreciable L1a2–M357 (13–17%); while the other was composed of eight Brahmin populations with low frequencies (4–8%) (Supplementary Table 3). Nonetheless, another 16 Brahmin populations (56%), (not listed here) did not possess this L1a2(M357) clade. Similarly, 42 other castes (61%) and 65 tribes (74%) did not possess this clade either.


Origin and identity of the Brokpa of Dah-Hanu, Himalayas – an NRY-HG L1a2 (M357) legacy

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338076600_Origin_and_identity_of_the_Brokpa_of_Dah-Hanu_Himalayas_-_an_NRY-HG_L1a2_M357_legacy

Link to paper:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338076600_Origin_and_identity_of_the_Brokpa_of_Dah-Hanu_Himalayas_-_an_NRY-HG_L1a2_M357_legacy/download

L1a2 frequency map per Brokpa paper:

39675

[ssamlal]

My maternal uncle's YSEQ results put him in YFull subclade L-Y4913. There are currently two (2) individuals in this subclade (descendants of a Crimean Greek and a Kuban Cossack). They are nearby geographically (Black Sea region). I'm in touch with the Crimean Greek.

We theorize (based on current info available) that subclade L-Y4913 (FTDNA L-BY164513) migrated to the Black Sea region directly from Punjab (India, Pakistan) about 5000 years ago, and it may have been one person, a common ancestor for the Crimean Greek and the Kuban Cossack.

My uncle's results:

40148

40150

YFull L-M2398 subclades:

40149

[ssamlal]

Updates:

YFull started processing my maternal uncle's Dante Labs BAM file last week. He is currently assigned L-Y4913 (as expected). I compared his YReport with the other two people in this branch. SNPs at the L-Y4913 all match.

In the upstream branch L-M2519, my uncle is negative for a number of SNPs (see screenshots below). The same SNPs are missing (no calls) from the BAM files of the other two individuals in L-Y4913. We're curious as to what YFull will do with L-M2519 and downstream branches (given my uncle's results) .

Anyone here in another L-M2519 downstream branch willing to share your YReport results (for L-M2519 tested SNPs)?

42975

42976

[vishankar]

My maternal uncle's YSEQ results put him in YFull subclade L-Y4913. There are currently two (2) individuals in this subclade (descendants of a Crimean Greek and a Kuban Cossack). They are nearby geographically (Black Sea region). I'm in touch with the Crimean Greek.

We theorize (based on current info available) that subclade L-Y4913 (FTDNA L-BY164513) migrated to the Black Sea region directly from Punjab (India, Pakistan) about 5000 years ago, and it may have been one person, a common ancestor for the Crimean Greek and the Kuban Cossack.

My uncle's results:

40148

40150

YFull L-M2398 subclades:

40149

hi..why is migration from the reverse not possible?...I mean from the black Sea to Punjab?

[Sapporo]

I seem to have now split into a separate subclade under L-Y33989 => L-Y91197

I share it with the academic sample that fellow forum member aaronbee ran for me previously.

[ThaYamamoto]

Not sure exactly where this is from, I found it on the forum somewhere though, Y groups for a bunch of Iranians, I think these were the ones in the Mt Leb paper .

44213


I can't tell how many exact individuals they count each time because of the way the manner they've tabulated it in but it seems they found L-M357 in [very low] frequencies in an Azeri, a Gilaki, Persians from Fars, Turkmens, Persians in Khorasan, Baluch, Armenians and Persians in Yazd. Really low frequencies and scanty distribution but its always cool to see - surprised they didn't find any in Hormuzgan though thought they might be some.

[RasulSrg]

My maternal uncle's YSEQ results put him in YFull subclade L-Y4913. There are currently two (2) individuals in this subclade (descendants of a Crimean Greek and a Kuban Cossack). They are nearby geographically (Black Sea region). I'm in touch with the Crimean Greek.

We theorize (based on current info available) that subclade L-Y4913 (FTDNA L-BY164513) migrated to the Black Sea region directly from Punjab (India, Pakistan) about 5000 years ago, and it may have been one person, a common ancestor for the Crimean Greek and the Kuban Cossack.

My uncle's results:

40148

40150

YFull L-M2398 subclades:

40149
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindi_people

[scorpi786]

L1A1 here, from north Punjab/Azad Kashmir in Pakistan.

So what's the most common accepted theory of origin for this haplogroup.

I read somewhere it may be Pakistan itself which would be very cool.

[Arlus]

L1A1 here, from north Punjab/Azad Kashmir in Pakistan.

So what's the most common accepted theory of origin for this haplogroup.

I read somewhere it may be Pakistan itself which would be very cool.

For South Asians L1a1 is most probably related to IVC and ultimately it is an IranN related haplogroup.

[scorpi786]

Cool, IVC is mostly in Pakistan/western India.

What do you mean by iranN haplogroup?

[scorpi786]

For South Asians L1a1 is most probably related to IVC and ultimately it is an IranN related haplogroup.

Cool, IVC is mostly in Pakistan/western India.

What do you mean by iranN haplogroup?

[tipirneni]

For South Asians L1a1 is most probably related to IVC and ultimately it is an IranN related haplogroup.

Iran N meaning J2a or J1

Sengupta et al. isolated the three largest subgroups of haplogroup L, M76-M27, M317 and M357, and named them L1, L2, and L3. In the latest tree, these correspond to L1a1, L1b, and L1a2. M76 (current L1a1, former L1) is the most common subgroup in India, while M76 and M357 (current L1a2, former L3) have approximately equal weight in Pakistan. M317 (current L1b, former L2) is rare in the Indian subcontinent. Iran seems to have all three major subgroups, while Turkey appears primarily M357. Other papers have found additional markers. For instance, L1b can be divided into two subgroups, M247 and M349.
M11-G mutation, which is one of the mutations that defines Haplogroup L, in approximately 1% to 3% of samples from Lebanon, Turkey, Georgia, Greece, Hungary, Calabria, and Andalusia. The sizes of the samples analyzed in this study were generally quite small, so it is possible that the actual frequency of Haplogroup L among Mediterranean European populations may be slightly lower or higher than that reported by Semino et al., but there seems to be no study to date that has described more precisely the distribution of Haplogroup L in Southwest Asia and Europe. Preliminary evidence gleaned from non-scientific sources, such as individuals who have had their Y-chromosomes tested by commercial labs, suggests that most European examples of Haplogroup L might belong to the subclade L2 (M317), which is, among South Asian populations, generally the rarest of the subclades of Haplogroup L.

L (M11, M20, M22, M61, M185, M295) Typical of populations of Pakistan
L*
L1 (M27, M76) Typical of Dravidian castes of India and Sri Lanka, with a moderate distribution among Indo-Iranian populations of South Asia
L2 (M317) Found at low frequency in Central Asia, Southwest Asia, and Southern Europe
L2*
L2a (M274)
L2b (M349)
L3 (M357) Found frequently among Burusho and Pashtuns, with a moderate distribution among the general Pakistani population
L3*
L3a (PK3) Found among Kalash

Based on L1a and T1a found together among Bajo people in Madgaskar https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4373124/, maybe we could say they came direct from Horn or some where close after Neolithic and 1 successful branch moved up Maykop and then near BMAC and was successful. That group probably moved into India around Kushan time. There is another group L3 which came little earlier through Iran and Baluchistan into South Asia.

[tipirneni]

Cool, IVC is mostly in Pakistan/western India.

What do you mean by iranN haplogroup?

Iran N is J1 or J2a

Based on L1a and T1a found together among Bajo people in Madgaskar https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4373124/, maybe we could say they came direct from Horn or some where close after Neolithic and 1 successful branch moved up Maykop and then near BMAC and was successful. That group probably moved into India around Kushan time. There is another group L3 which came little earlier through Iran and Baluchistan into South Asia.

L1a might have had multiple waves into India every time there was a soldier movement it was L1a be it Saka or Partian or Kushan. L3 might have come through earlier Dravidian waves through S Iran/Seistan etc.. and setlled among Kalash etc.. and some South Indians.

[Arlus]

Cool, IVC is mostly in Pakistan/western India.

What do you mean by iranN haplogroup?

As far as I know y haplogroups L1a, J(J2?) and R2 are associated with Iranian Neolithic Farmers.

[tipirneni]

As far as I know y haplogroups L1a, J(J2?) and R2 are associated with Iranian Neolithic Farmers.

The L is found only in BA other places. It was not found anywhere else. Only in BA it started expanding probably along with J1/J2 people and later with R2.
https://i.ibb.co/k2dg97M/me1.jpg

[tipirneni]

The L is found only in BA other places. It was not found anywhere else. Only in BA it started expanding probably along with J1/J2 people and later with R2.
https://i.ibb.co/k2dg97M/me1.jpg

But if say they found few specimens of L* or LT in the persian gulf excavations that may push the back migration of K to LT from 14k to 21k-19k LGM start time. There is a void in terms of LGM coverage of H and LT and J which might start to change if there are more surface scans and studies from Gulf area.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aat9658

[dante911]

L1a might have had multiple waves into India every time there was a soldier movement it was L1a be it Saka or Partian or Kushan. .

Given the deep penetration of L1a in south(found even among tribal communities along the south-west), I think the earliest introgression of L1a in south-west was because of agriculturalists who moved south. It's clearly pre-historic in my opinion

[tipirneni]

Given the deep penetration of L1a in south(found even among tribal communities along the south-west), I think the earliest introgression of L1a in south-west was because of agriculturalists who moved south. It's clearly pre-historic in my opinion

We even have L1a found among Andaman people. It is not clearly studied if it is a recent Chola era movement or not. It may be one of those Indonesia/Madgaskar branch coming direct from early L1a out of africa. So unless all the Tribal clades are clearly listed and categorized we cannt say that for sure. Some of the tribals like Soliga seem to harbour African autosome meaning some of the L1/L3 might have jumped direct from early days during Neolithic times into these tribals.

[Arlus]

We even have L1a found among Andaman people. It is not clearly studied if it is a recent Chola era movement or not. It may be one of those Indonesia/Madgaskar branch coming direct from early L1a out of africa. So unless all the Tribal clades are clearly listed and categorized we cannt say that for sure. Some of the tribals like Soliga seem to harbour African autosome meaning some of the L1/L3 might have jumped direct from early days during Neolithic times into these tribals.

That's interesting. It would be great if they indeed have a very basal subclade. But all current samples under L on yfull coalesce around 23k ybp, so if they indeed have L from 1st OOA migration then it might predate L1- L2 split.
The L1a2 irula sample we have has a relatively young subclade having TMRCA of 3200 ybp.

[Megalophias]

Great Andaman has been settled by outsiders since the late 18th century. The natives of that island have quite a bit of recent admixture from South and East/Southeast Asia, unlike the Jarawa and Onge from islands further south. There is no reason to suppose that the one Great Andamanese L-M11 goes back before the 19th century, never mind Out-of-Africa.

[tipirneni]

Great Andaman has been settled by outsiders since the late 18th century. The natives of that island have quite a bit of recent admixture from South and East/Southeast Asia, unlike the Jarawa and Onge from islands further south. There is no reason to suppose that the one Great Andamanese L-M11 goes back before the 19th century, never mind Out-of-Africa.

Even though it is a valid argument, remember unlike western countries the DNA testing is not widespread especially among tribals. Most studies take a representative sample from the tribals rather than covering a big portion which might leave some of these older L clades. We can wait and see until when the swab tests cover more people

[pegasus]

Great Andaman has been settled by outsiders since the late 18th century. The natives of that island have quite a bit of recent admixture from South and East/Southeast Asia, unlike the Jarawa and Onge from islands further south. There is no reason to suppose that the one Great Andamanese L-M11 goes back before the 19th century, never mind Out-of-Africa.

Exactly! Otherwise one would have expected to see this clade in SE Asians, who afaik lack this clade unless they have mixed Indian ancestry.

[Arlus]

Haplogroups L1b and L2- which ancient populations can they be attributed to? Their modern distribution probably makes it less likely for them to be related to IranN.

[dante911]

Haplogroups L1b and L2- which ancient populations can they be attributed to? Their modern distribution probably makes it less likely for them to be related to IranN.

L clade in general might be related to Dzuduana HG type of population, i.e. it predates the formation of population what we call as Iran_N (If I remember correctly, Iran_N was modelled as Dzuduana HG + some ANE in one of the papers).

[tipirneni]

If L is Dzuduana then why it is not in early farming groups like C1, G, H2 et.. and also among the early Anatolian HG groups. Also no presence in Mesolithic europe like F, H3, C1 were found there and later H2 found in Neolithic. Those caves in Europe were highly oversampled so if there was L1 or L2 or L3 they would have found it.

[ssamlal]

My maternal uncle and his second cousin have moved to a new sub-clade L-Y106579

52214

[BMG]

My maternal grandfather's line is negative for M2398 and Y6288.
So he should be is either under BY198125 or Y46452.
I guess he will be under Y46452 possibly along with arlus subclade or even under Y44848.
His closest STR match under 12 markers is a Pakistani sample under Y44848.

[Arlus]

My maternal grandfather's line is negative for M2398 and Y6288.
So he should be is either under BY198125 or Y46452.
I guess he will be under Y46452 possibly along with arlus subclade or even under Y44848.
His closest STR match under 12 markers is a Pakistani sample under Y44848.

All currently available samples seem to lie under Y44848 side of split (so perhaps it was the more successful one ) so maybe he has higher probability of being a Y44848 +.
Anyways his sample would be important in further elaborating the L-Y46452 branch. It is similarly upstream as M2398/Y6288 /BY198125 after all.

[Mahalat]

As far as I know y haplogroups L1a, J(J2?) and R2 are associated with Iranian Neolithic Farmers.

Would L being found in Maykop and BMAC sites be the main support for this Iran Neolithic link?

[Yamdut]

Haplogroups L1b and L2- which ancient populations can they be attributed to? Their modern distribution probably makes it less likely for them to be related to IranN.
I find that most diversity of L haplogroup is found among groups like Baloch and Kurds. L1b is found among Kurds, Balochs,etc.

[Arlus]

Would L being found in Maykop and BMAC sites be the main support for this Iran Neolithic link?

While BMAC likely inherited L1a2 from their IranN ancestors I am not sure if Maykop's L2-L595 is IranN related.
Regarding its association with IranN-
-L1a has higher frequency in some IranN rich populations such as South Indian farmer mid castes, balochs.
- An ancient Turkmenistan sample which belongs to IranN cluster has L1a2.
-also I think L1a coincides with nearly ubiquitous presence of IranN ancestry in WANA and Central Asia.

[Arlus]

I find that most diversity of L haplogroup is found among groups like Baloch and Kurds. L1b is found among Kurds, Balochs,etc.

Yes maybe west Asia has higher basal diversity of L. I recall an old study of Iranian Y hgs had L1a1/L1a2/L1b in nearly equal frequencies with a few L*s(L2?) as well.

[Coldmountains]

Yes maybe west Asia has higher basal diversity of L. I recall an old study of Iranian Y hgs had L1a1/L1a2/L1b in nearly equal frequencies with a few L*s(L2?) as well.

It is interesting that almost all the South Central Asian-related or admixed samples from Iron Age Central Asia were L (KNT005, C4273, C1654 ...) and often under very basal clades (mostly L1c but C1654 with a BMAC-shifted Swat_IA profile was not afaik). My guess would be that until the historic era L (mostly L1c) was the most frequent haplogroup among agricultural+sedentary people from the Pamir to Makrani coast region (Pastoralists would probably carry more R1a, Q and so one besides a lot of L too). From my private Y-DNA list of Afghans, i can tell already despite the bad sample size tell that the diversity of L is super high in Afghanistan, especially among Tajiks (Panjshir, Kabul, Parwan, Badakshan,..) and Balochs.

[Yamdut]

While BMAC likely inherited L1a2 from their IranN ancestors I am not sure if Maykop's L2-L595 is IranN related.
Regarding its association with IranN-
-L1a has higher frequency in some IranN rich populations such as South Indian farmer mid castes, balochs.
- An ancient Turkmenistan sample which belongs to IranN cluster has L1a2.
-also I think L1a coincides with nearly ubiquitous presence of IranN ancestry in WANA and Central Asia.
Word midcastes is not appropriate in case of Dravidian Agrarians, rather we should call them Dravidian dominant groups because there is absence of Kshatriya and Vaisya varna in South, and Brahmins are late migrant to region(Steppe Genetics)
Lexicon generally shapes perceptions about history, it is suffice to say that L is one of dominant lineage of upper strata of Dravidian in South along with J2, R2 and H. Moreover, Dalit may be a new terminology for south, some forest tribes may be categorised as Dalit in later agrs because I do not think that prior to brahmin migration, such a varna view persisted among Dravidians.

[Fried]

Population Genetic Study of 17 Y-STR Loci of the Sorani Kurds in the Province of Sulaymaniyah, Iraq (https://europepmc.org/article/ppr/ppr493108)
Dlshad Rashid, Balnd M. Albarzinji, Farhad M. Abdulkarim

Resuts:

Haplogroup prediction indicated predominance (28%) of subclade J2 (44/157) in the Sorani Kurds, northeast of Iraq. The pairwise genetic distance results showed that the Kurdish group clustered along with Asian populations, whereas the furthest countries were Europeans and Africans.

49827




One of the 5 samples (#3) looks like not L-M11.

[Coldmountains]

While BMAC likely inherited L1a2 from their IranN ancestors I am not sure if Maykop's L2-L595 is IranN related.
Regarding its association with IranN-
-L1a has higher frequency in some IranN rich populations such as South Indian farmer mid castes, balochs.
- An ancient Turkmenistan sample which belongs to IranN cluster has L1a2.
-also I think L1a coincides with nearly ubiquitous presence of IranN ancestry in WANA and Central Asia.

Reading deeper into the Neolithic expansion in the Iranian plateau and the ancient history of L1 i have the feeling both the expansion of L1a1 and L1a2 are associated with Pottery/Late Neolithic groups from North Iraq/Wrst Iran around 6000 B.C (still mainly Iran_N and low Anatolian). So far L1 is missing in the earlier Neolithic Iranian samples (Hotu is J2, Ganj Dareh R2, Wezmeh G2b) and almost all bigger South Asian/Central Asian clades share a TMRCA with West Asian/Caucasian clades around 6000 B.C in the middle-late neolithic. One of the oldest L1a we have for now is from Armenia_Areni_Chalcolithic and it has not that much Iran_N affinity in my eyes actually. If not for the high presence of L1a1 in South Asians outside of NW India and in population lacking Iran Chalc i would think it is likely that much of L1 was brought by Iran Chalc even. But my guess is that it was brought by that "soft-ware" tradition wave starting from the Zagros region and reaching Jeitun in Central Asia and Mehrgarh in South Asia (both having soft-ware in their ceramic period). Actually Mehrgarh even has later in the Chalcolithic contacts to Central Iran


The long-lasting Period III of Mehrgarh (5th and beginning of the 4th millennium BC) has enabled to follow the development of different craft techniques in several areas, particularly in
the pottery styles called Togau A and Kili Ghul Mohammad II and III widespread in Balochistan. It is actually interesting to notice that the early fi ne Togau ware of Balochistan shows parallels with the fi ne black-on-red ceramics known at Cheshmeh
Ali in the northern Central Iranian Plateau, which have been dated to 5200-4300 BC (Transitional Chalcolithic).

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1632
Distance: 3.3097% / 0.03309665
46.2 Neolithic_Anatolia (Barcin_N)
21.0 RUS_Progress_En
14.6 Neolithic_Iran (Ganj_Dareh)
12.8 Caucasus_HG (CHG)
5.4 Neolithic_Levant (Natufian)

[Coldmountains]

Also i find the distribution and TMRCA of L-SK1426 (under L1a1) very interesting.

It has a TMRCA of around 3000 B.C and was found in Italians (including medieval ones), Levantines, Iraqis, Balochs and South Asians (especially South Indians). Any idea which migration might explain this distribution? (IVC-Mesopotamia contacts?)

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/L-Z8032/story
https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-SK1426/

[Arlus]

.......

[Jatt1]

Reading deeper into the Neolithic expansion in the Iranian plateau and the ancient history of L1 i have the feeling both the expansion of L1a1 and L1a2 are associated with Pottery/Late Neolithic groups from North Iraq/Wrst Iran around 6000 B.C (still mainly Iran_N and low Anatolian). So far L1 is missing in the earlier Neolithic Iranian samples (Hotu is J2, Ganj Dareh R2, Wezmeh G2b) and almost all bigger South Asian/Central Asian clades share a TMRCA with West Asian/Caucasian clades around 6000 B.C in the middle-late neolithic. One of the oldest L1a we have for now is from Armenia_Areni_Chalcolithic and it has not that much Iran_N affinity in my eyes actually. If not for the high presence of L1a1 in South Asians outside of NW India and in population lacking Iran Chalc i would think it is likely that much of L1 was brought by Iran Chalc even. But my guess is that it was brought by that "soft-ware" tradition wave starting from the Zagros region and reaching Jeitun in Central Asia and Mehrgarh in South Asia (both having soft-ware in their ceramic period). Actually Mehrgarh even has later in the Chalcolithic contacts to Central Iran

Target: ARM_Areni_C:I1632
Distance: 3.3097% / 0.03309665
46.2 Neolithic_Anatolia (Barcin_N)
21.0 RUS_Progress_En
14.6 Neolithic_Iran (Ganj_Dareh)
12.8 Caucasus_HG (CHG)
5.4 Neolithic_Levant (Natufian)

Isn't Mehrgarh older than 6000 B.C, and one major farmers' line J2 is present in India for around last 10000 yrs?

[Coldmountains]

Isn't Mehrgarh older than 6000 B.C, and one major farmers' line J2 is present in India for around last 10000 yrs?

Mehrgarh is not dated significantly earlier than 7000 B.C. and I don't think there is any confirmed earlier Neolithic site east of it or? So why should Iran Neolithic J2 be present in 8000 B.C. in India? Theoretically the only possible scenario is some Mesolithic Zarzians entering the Indus region but I don't think we have evidence for their microlith technology in India and anthropologists claimed that Mesolithic Indian skeletons had a "tropical" profile (similar to aboriginals)