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bmoney
11-08-2017, 01:55 AM
Hi All,

Trying to consolidate L research in here focussing on India/Pakistan/Afghanistan as there seems to be a dearth of research due to low distribution frequencies of this haplogroup worldwide

Will update this post with new research as papers come out

Latest & Rumours: Davidski: The message we're all getting, one way or another, is that L-M20 is by far the dominant marker in these Harappan remains. No one seems to know anything about any R1a in them, but R2 is a possibility.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2017/02/rumors-leaks-thread.html

Snippet from Khana in this forum:

So I don't know if this has been discussed, but I heard from somebody who knows an archeologist at the Rakhigarhi site.
They are going to release a paper later in the year and 80-90% of the samples were y-HG L-M20.

Distribution

The greatest diversity of Y-DNA haplogroup L is centered around the northwestern part of the subcontinent, especially Balochistan. Makranis (southern Baloch) exhibit L1a and L1b both at a frequency of 10%. Balochis exhibit L1a at 20% and L1c at 4%. Lastly, the Brahui exhibit both L1a and L1c at 4%. The diversity is thus highest in this area. In Pakistan, L1a is as frequent as L1c, although the northern areas of Pakistan very much lean towards L1c

19632

FTdna
L1a1 (originally L1) occurs mainly in Western India and Southern Pakistan.
L1a2 (originally L3) occurs mainly in northern regions of Pakistan and India but is also found as far west as the Chechen Republic.
L1b (originally L2) occurs in Western Asia and Europe.
L2 (formerly L*) has to date been observed in a small number of Project members whose ancestry is from all over Europe. It may trace its origins back to the Middle East or the Caucasus.

Earliest known L1

Admixture

M536324 I1658 M182163 I1656 M930063 RISE423 M691697 RISE407 Modern
Armenia EBA Armenia MLBA Armenia MBA Armenia LBA Armenian
Run time 8.22 Run time 8.42 Run time 6.24 Run time 3.92 Run time
S-Indian 0.27 S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 1
Baloch 25.53 Baloch 26.71 Baloch 23.13 Baloch 28.22 Baloch 18
Caucasian 56.75 Caucasian 42.8 Caucasian 38.66 Caucasian 30.75 Caucasian 57
NE-Euro 4.79 NE-Euro 16.99 NE-Euro 18.57 NE-Euro 24.77 NE-Euro 3
SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 0.54 Siberian - Siberian -
NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.92 Papuan - Papuan -
American - American 0.12 American 1.3 American 1.54 American
Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0.59 Beringian - Beringian -
Mediterranean 5.88 Mediterranean 9.14 Mediterranean 9.34 Mediterranean 6.98 Mediterranean 8
SW-Asian 6.45 SW-Asian 4.23 SW-Asian 4.94 SW-Asian 6.38 SW-Asian 13
San - San - San - San - San -
E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
W-African 0.33 W-African - W-African 1.99 W-African 1.36 W-African

The beginning of the Bronze Age in the southern Caucasus has been thought to coincide with theappearance of the Kura Araxes (KA) culture around 3500
CAL B.C.
KA artifacts are known not only from thesouthern Caucasus but also from sites in Anatolia, Iran, and the Levant. Recent discoveries from Areni-1Cave in the Vayots Dzor region of Armenia demonstrate that the origin of the distinctive KA artifactassemblage lies in the Late Chalcolithic of the late 5th to early 4th millennia
B.C

Data collected during the 2007 excavations of Areni-1 Cave enable the story of a Late Chalcolithic– Early Bronze Age population to be told in greaterdetail for the southern Caucasus,
Areni-1 is neither typical nor represen-tative of the Late Chalcolithic of the southernCaucasus as a whole, but it nevertheless provides anunusual and exciting opportunity to broaden ourunderstanding of the time period.

http://www.academia.edu/1462570/Areni-1_Cave_Armenia_A_Chalcolithic_Early_Bronze_Age_set tlement_and_ritual_site_in_the_southern_Caucasus

Concerning haplogroup L, L1c-M357 is significantly higher in Burusho and Kalash (15% and 25%) than in other populations. L1a-M76 is most frequent in Balochi (20%), and is found at lower levels in Kyrgyz, Pashtun, Tajik, Uzbek and Turkmen populations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3799995/

The Y-lineages observed in the present study may suggest two major episodes of migrations: One carried J2 and to some extent L and G with the Neolithic farmers (Underhill et al. 2001)

The synthesis of Y-genealogy and estimated diversity of several clades demonstrated that North Indians carry three Y-lineages, one derived from Central Asia or West Eurasia (R1a1★, R1b1b2★ and R2 haplogroups), one derived from the Middle East (J2★, Shia-specific E1b1b1, and to some extent G★ and L★ haplogroups), and the indigenous Indian Y-lineage marked by H1★, F★, O★ and C★ without the M217 transversion.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755252/

This is the largest haplogroup in the Jat sample population. It is present in the Indian population at an overall frequency of about 7–15% (Basu et al., 2003; Cordaux et al., 2004). Genetic studies suggest that this may be one of the original haplogroups of the creators of Indus Valley Civilization (McElreavey and Quintana-Murci, 2005; Sengupta et al., 2006). It has a frequency of about 28% in western Pakistan and Baluchistan, from where the agricultural creators of this civilization emerged (Qamar et al., 2002). The origins of this haplogroup can be traced to the rugged and mountainous Pamir Knot region in Tajikistan (Wells, 2007).

Haplogroup India Pakistan Total Percent Marker Age (kya) Geographic origins
L 110 1 111 36.8% M11 ~25–30 Pamir Knot region (Hindu Kush, Tian Shan, Himalayas) in Tajikistan, Indus Valley

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity.
haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14586639

India
They are, in descending frequency order, HGs H and its subclades H1*, H1c, H1a, and H2 (26.4%); R1a1-M17 (15.8%); O2a-M95 (14.6%); R2-M124 (9.3%); J2-M172 (9.1%); O3e-M134 (8.0%); L1-M76 (6.3%); and F*-M89 (5.2%).
HGs L1-M76 and H1-M52 have peak variance distributions in the Maharashtra region in coastal western India.

Pakistan
In Pakistan, nine HGs exceed 5% frequency and account for 83.6% of the samples. They include HGs R1a1-M17 (24.4%), L*-M20 (13.1%), J2-M172 (11.9%), R2-M124 (7.4%), R1b-P25 (7.4%), G-M201 (6.3%), C3-M217 (6.8%), H-M69* (6.3%), and L1-M76 (5.1%).

The new L3-M357 subclade accounts for 86% of L-M20(xL1xL2) chromosomes in Pakistan but occurs only sporadically (3/728) in India.

The phylogeography and the similarity of microsatellite variation of HGs R1a1 and R2 to L1-M76 in South Asian tribes argues that they likely share a common demographic history.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/

Hap 28 = Hap L in this study

haplogroup 28 was present in all except the Hazaras and the Kashmiris

The fifth haplogroup that is common in Pakistan, haplogroup 28, differs from all the others in its distribution. Within Pakistan, it made up 14% of our sample and was present in all but two populations (both of which had very small sample sizes), so it is both common and widespread. Outside Pakistan and the nearby countries, however, it is rare. It has been reported in India (30%; present in 3/3 populations), Tajikistan (10%; present in 5/6 populations), and Uzbekistan (3%; present in 10/13 populations), but it is rare in Russia (0.4%; present in 1/6 populations) and the Caucasus (1.4%; present in 1/6 populations (Wells et al. 2001) and has not been found at all in China or Mongolia (unpublished observations). BATWING estimates of the TMRCA of the Pakistani haplogroup 28 chromosomes were ∼7,000 (4,000–14,000) years (table 8). Thus, within this time period, the Pakistani populations have diverged from a common ancestral population or have experienced considerable male gene flow between themselves or from a common source. Since the estimated age corresponds to the early Neolithic period, the spread of this lineage might be associated with the local expansion of farmers.

Pakistan Parsi
Given the small effective population size of the Parsis, the closeness of their match to the Iranian data may be fortuitous, and the presence of haplogroup 28 chromosomes at 18% (4% in Iran; Wells et al. 2001) suggests some gene flow from the surrounding populations. The TMRCA for the Parsi-specific cluster in the haplogroup 28 networks was 1,800 (600–4,500) years (table 8), consistent with the migration of a small number of lineages from Iran.

Modern Greeks show a moderately high frequency of haplogroup 21 (28%; Rosser et al. 2000), but this haplogroup was not seen in either the Burusho or the Kalash sample and was found in only 2% of the Pathans, whereas the local haplogroup 28 was present at 17%, 25%, and 13%, respectively.

haplogroup 28 is present at 13% in the Pathans, so no support for a Jewish origin is found, and the admixture estimate was 0%

This difference and the high frequency of haplogroup 28 in the Baluch (29%) make a predominantly Syrian origin for their Y chromosome unlikely

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/

Cordaux et al. (19) defined, heuristically, a package of haplogroups (J2, R1a, R2, and L) to be associated with the migration of IE people and the introduction of the caste system to India, again from Central Asia, because they had been observed at significantly lower proportions in South Indian tribal groups, with the high frequency of R1a among Chenchus of Andhra Pradesh (6) considered as an aberrant phenomenon (19).

The near absence of L lineages within the IE speakers from Bihar (0%), Orissa (0%), and West Bengal (1.5%) further suggests that the current distribution of Y haplogroups in India is associated primarily with geographic rather than linguistic or cultural determinants.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1347984/

Haplogroup L-M20 is found predominantly in India and Pakistan (15%) and has tentatively been associated with the expansion of farming, thus implying a nonIndian origin
These estimates are based on the frequencies of seven haplogroups (which account for >80% of Indian Y chromosomes), assuming that haplogroups H-M52, O-M95, and F-M89 have indigenous origins, whereas J-M172, L-M20, R-M17 and R-M124 have nonindigenous origins given their putative phylogeography (see text).

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982204000405

The spread of clade L is confined mostly to southern, central, and western Asia (table 3). Being virtually absent in Europe, it is also found irregularly and at low frequencies in populations of the Middle East and southern Caucasus (Nebel et al. 2001; Scozzari et al. 2001; Weale et al. 2001; Wilson et al. 2001). It occurs in Pakistan at a frequency of 13.5% (Qamar et al. 2002). In Indians, all Y chromosomes that had the derived allele at M11, M20, and M61 also shared M27 specific to its subclade L1.

Interestingly, mtDNA haplogroup U7 (Richards et al. 2000), like Y-chromosomal clade L (Underhill et al. 2000), is also found, though at low frequencies, in western Asia and occasionally in Mediterranean Europe. The differences in STR modal haplotypes of the L clade between the Caucasus (Weale et al. 2001) and India point to their independent expansions from two distinct founder populations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC379225/

Frequency of haplogroup L- (M11/M20), which is also proposed to be associated with the expansion of farming, was 13.7%, with the highest occurrences in caste populations. A similar frequency of L lineage has previously been reported from Pakistan [21]. An M27 mutation that defined the subclad L1 was found in all the L-M11 samples in the present study. This is in accordance with the previous studies that M27 characterizes the Indian and Pakistani lineages, which is absent in their Turkish counterparts [22]. This result, together with the differences in STR nodal haplotypes of the L clad between the Caucasus and Indian populations [4], and matches in the six STR loci typed between Turkish and Armenians [22], lead to the assumption that the Indian and Pakistani L lineages might have originated from a distinct founder population. This view is supported by the much lower STR variance of the L haplogroups compared with the other Indian Y-lineages, observed in the present study.

https://bmcgenet.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2156-7-42

The spread of haplogroup L-M11 lineages is largely re-stricted to populations of the south Caucasus (Weale et al.2001), Middle East (Nebel et al. 2001b), Pakistan (Qamar et al. 2002) and India (Kivisild et al. 2003). InterestinglyTurkish L lineages lack the M27 mutation that character-izes Indian and Pakistani L lineages.

http://www.academia.edu/5557321/Excavating_Y-chromosome_haplotype_strata_in_Anatolia

From Rukha

Sayyid Ajjal is the ancestor of many Muslims in areas all across China. And one of his descendants is the famous Navigator of Ming Dynasty, Zheng He, who led the largest armada in the world of 15th century. The origin of Sayyid Ajjal's family remains unclear although many studies have been done on this topic of Muslim history. In this paper, we studied the Y chromosomes of his present descendants, and found they all have haplogroup L1a-M76, proving a southern Persian origin.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/a-persian-in-china-y-chromosome-of.html

Bosch et al. [14] studied Y chromosome variation in the Balkans, including a sample of 41 Greeks. Greeks belonged to the major Caucasoid haplogroups. The identity of the K*(xP) chromosomes is not clear, but they could belong to the minor Caucasoid haplogroups K2 and L which have been previously observed in Greeks, or to other K-related lineages.

http://carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/homogenous-balkan-analysis.pdf

L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Raqqa, a northern Syrian city in which its previous inhabitants have been wiped out by the Mongol genocides and repopulated in recent times by local Bedouin populations and Chechen war refugees from Russia (El-Sibai 2009)

Y-chromosome haplogroup (L-M20) has a high mean frequency of 14% in Pakistan and so differs from all other haplogroups in its frequency distribution. L-M20 is also observed, although at lower frequencies, in neighbouring countries, such as India, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Russia. Both the frequency distribution and estimated expansion time (7000 YBP) of this lineage suggest that its spread in the Indus Valley may be associated with the expansion of local farming groups during the Neolithic period (Qamar et al. 2002).

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2005/08/population-genetics-of-indus-valley.html

BMG
11-08-2017, 04:02 PM
Hi my maternal grandfather's line is L1c . The direct ancestral line goes back to kollam town in late 18th century .

A Norfolk L-M20
11-08-2017, 05:24 PM
Hi I'm an L1b2c (L M20 > M22 > M317 > SK1412 >SK1414 / FGC51074) > FGC51036) English. I trace my surname line back to circa 1722 on the Berkshire / Oxfordshire county border in Southern England. I share my Y line with another Southern English family. I've Big Y tested. On yfull haplotree, FGC analysed, and in the FTDNA Y Haplogroup L project.

A Norfolk L-M20
11-08-2017, 10:00 PM
Although out of date, probably poorly informed (I'm far from an expert), and with a slight bias towards L1b and Europe, I did a few years ago launch a Y haplogroup L resource page from my personal blog:

http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/y-haplogroup-l-not-the-r1b-sub-clade-or-mtdna-resource-page

I'm sure that you've found it, and have all of that information and more above.

Y Cousin Paul

Caspian
11-08-2017, 10:25 PM
Haplogroup L, L1, L1a, L1b etc. they are not South Asian. Biggest diversities of haplogroup L in Iraq, West Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and South Caucasus. Origin of L was near the Zagros, Mesopotamia, Levant or South Caucasus I guess. Oldest known haplogroup L samples are from Armenia and they don't have South Asian admixtures. Their autosomal genetics are mostly Caucasian+East Mediterranean+European, because L was carrier of Caucasian Hunter Gatherer type component (like J1 and J2) or East Mediterranean-Anatolian Farmer type component (like G2a).
L-M27 (L1a1) has TMRCA about ~4500 years in Indian subcontinent https://yfull.com/tree/L-M27/
while one of the 6000 years old ancient Armenian L samples belongs to L-M27. This case shows us that L-M27 is older in Caucasus than South Asia.

A Norfolk L-M20
11-08-2017, 10:28 PM
I'd agree that I see an origin as being somewhere between Syria and Pakistan for L and for some of its subclades. It's there that you see the most diversity including some of the older divisions.

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:01 PM
Hi my maternal grandfather's line is L1c . The direct ancestral line goes back to kollam town in late 18th century .

Thats a very rare subclade in India, what caste was he?

Most Indians & Baluchis belong to L1a-M76 like myself, and the greatest L diversity now is in Southwestern Pakistan

Kalash mostly belong to L1c

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:04 PM
Haplogroup L, L1, L1a, L1b etc. they are not South Asian. Biggest diversities of haplogroup L in Iraq, West Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and South Caucasus. Origin of L was near the Zagros, Mesopotamia, Levant or South Caucasus I guess. Oldest known haplogroup L samples are from Armenia and they don't have South Asian admixtures.
L-M27 (L1a1) has TMRCA about ~4500 years in Indian subcontinent https://yfull.com/tree/L-M27/
while one of the 6000 years old ancient Armenian L samples belongs to L-M27. This case shows us that L-M27 is older in Caucasus than South Asia.

Yep makes sense, I meant to suggest that modern day L1 diversity is highest in Pakistan which has L1a, L1b and L1c

Feel free to add anything non-South Asian, most of the research I've found was south Asian focussed except for the Turkish paper that I've referenced

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:07 PM
Although out of date, probably poorly informed (I'm far from an expert), and with a slight bias towards L1b and Europe, I did a few years ago launch a Y haplogroup L resource page from my personal blog:

http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/y-haplogroup-l-not-the-r1b-sub-clade-or-mtdna-resource-page

I'm sure that you've found it, and have all of that information and more above.

Y Cousin Paul

Thanks for your work Paul,

Yes i've read and probably referenced your work and Cagetti's whos also European L

jesus
11-08-2017, 11:32 PM
Proto Elamite Dravidian IVC Kura araxes unity! :P

Btw, The Parsi priest class(formed after their arrival to India) are around 55% Y-DNA L(mostly L1b with a smaller amount of L1a)

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:56 PM
Proto Elamite Dravidian IVC Kura araxes unity! :P

Btw, The Parsi priest class(formed after their arrival to India) are around 55% Y-DNA L(mostly L1b with a smaller amount of L1a)

:beerchug:

We da real civilization builders - bloody Siberian Indo-Europeans taking our fertile land in Iran and India :P

What subclade are you Jesus?

yes that chimes in with this research - though Indian Parsis are bottlenecked AF due to founder effects:

Given the small effective population size of the Parsis, the closeness of their match to the Iranian data may be fortuitous, and the presence of haplogroup 28 chromosomes at 18% (4% in Iran; Wells et al. 2001) suggests some gene flow from the surrounding populations. The TMRCA for the Parsi-specific cluster in the haplogroup 28 networks was 1,800 (600–4,500) years (table 8), consistent with the migration of a small number of lineages from Iran.

jesus
11-08-2017, 11:58 PM
:beerchug:

We da real civilization builders - bloody Siberian Indo-Europeans taking our fertile land in Iran and India :P

What subclade are you Jesus?

yes that chimes in with this research - though Indian Parsis are bottlenecked AF due to founder effects:

Given the small effective population size of the Parsis, the closeness of their match to the Iranian data may be fortuitous, and the presence of haplogroup 28 chromosomes at 18% (4% in Iran; Wells et al. 2001) suggests some gene flow from the surrounding populations. The TMRCA for the Parsi-specific cluster in the haplogroup 28 networks was 1,800 (600–4,500) years (table 8), consistent with the migration of a small number of lineages from Iran.

I fall under L1b, the west Asian/Caucasian/European version of L. Apparently Parsis carry the same mutation as myself and Norfolk(SK1414) but their STR values are a bit different.

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 12:00 AM
If I recall, there was a L-SK1414 tracing from Azores (Portuguese sea trade routes), that had an STR marker, that the Pakistan survey associated with Parsi. Or have I got this wrong?

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 12:01 AM
My STRs are closest to the other English family. Then maybe to a guy who's line came from Birjand, Iran.

jesus
11-09-2017, 12:12 AM
If I recall, there was a L-SK1414 tracing from Azores (Portuguese sea trade routes), that had an STR marker, that the Pakistan survey associated with Parsi. Or have I got this wrong?

Trade connection is posssible. I remember a Corsican Y-DNA T member with the last name Parsi, I think he claimed Persian/middle eastern connection too. I found out that he shares 8 cm with a Persian guy from southern Fars/Pars province(that area is close to the coast and Famous for trade and pirates).

There are also Persians/Azeri Catholic converts in Iberia from modern day Iran(they left in the 1500s-1600s and worked as ambassadors/traders).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Juan_of_Persia

kush
11-09-2017, 12:23 AM
I took AncestryDNA so they don't give the haplogroup analysis like 23andme. I got my haplogroups from wegene after transferring the fiel from ancestrydna. I got L1a1 for paternal and J1 for maternal. My paternal makes sense based on my region, but my maternal seems weird. Can you guys confirm if wegene's haplogroups are accurate or not?

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 12:23 AM
L-SK1414 (L1b2c) is growing on the FT-DNA Project, from when Gareth spotted my SNP in that Balochi sample in the Pakistan survey, following my Big Y - now with the STR predictions and the L SNP chip. I'm seeing it in England, Lebanon, Central Europe, Italy, Portugal, France, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Cyprus, and Turkey now. I see Gareth has us split into four sections at the moment. FT-DNA added my FGC51036 to the SNP chip, but no other tester has yet tested positive for that one.

I think L-SK1414 has multiple entry into Europe judging by the diversity. The only Big Y so far are myself and the Druze sample, but we were pretty far apart. More Big Y should provide new sub clades under L1b2c.

The L-PH8 guys are quiet in this thread!

bmoney
11-09-2017, 12:57 AM
I took AncestryDNA so they don't give the haplogroup analysis like 23andme. I got my haplogroups from wegene after transferring the fiel from ancestrydna. I got L1a1 for paternal and J1 for maternal. My paternal makes sense based on my region, but my maternal seems weird. Can you guys confirm if wegene's haplogroups are accurate or not?

J1 is a middle-eastern/caucasus origin mtdna - maybe it was one of the mtdnas of IVC peoples but was largely diluted by indigenous mtdna M which might explain why you have it

The Kalash have both high levels of ydna L and mtdna J

parasar
11-09-2017, 01:07 AM
Thats a very rare subclade in India, what caste was he?

Most Indians & Baluchis belong to L1a-M76 like myself, and the greatest L diversity now is in Southwestern Pakistan

Kalash mostly belong to L1c

India is very poorly sampled.
The only reasonable sized sample set turned up L1c in nearly all TN populations.
Arunkumar's Tamil data:
DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

It shows far more STR diversity that all L1c from northern South Asia, Central Asia, and Caucasus combined.
The Vadama have the northern type STR.

bmoney
11-09-2017, 01:14 AM
India is very poorly sampled.
The only reasonable sized sample set turned up L1c in nearly all TN populations.
Arunkumar's Tamil data:
DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11

It shows far more STR diversity that all L1c from northern South Asia, Central Asia, and Caucasus combined.
The Vadama have the northern type STR.


Thanks!

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 01:26 AM
J1 is a middle-eastern/caucasus origin mtdna - maybe it was one of the mtdnas of IVC peoples but was largely diluted by indigenous mtdna M which might explain why you have it

The Kalash have both high levels of ydna L and mtdna J

Also, all the Punjabi Arains I've seen (only 4) have mtDNA J1

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 01:30 AM
Nomenclature updates can be so confusing. I just had to check up, so for the record ...


Y haplogroup L3 became renamed L1c, which was renamed again as L1a2 (L-M357). That helps me! L3 or L1c under ISOGG 2017 are L1a2. Please continue. ;-) The mysterious L.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 01:32 AM
L-SK1414 (L1b2c) is growing on the FT-DNA Project, from when Gareth spotted my SNP in that Balochi sample in the Pakistan survey, following my Big Y - now with the STR predictions and the L SNP chip. I'm seeing it in England, Lebanon, Central Europe, Italy, Portugal, France, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Cyprus, and Turkey now. I see Gareth has us split into four sections at the moment. FT-DNA added my FGC51036 to the SNP chip, but no other tester has yet tested positive for that one.

I think L-SK1414 has multiple entry into Europe judging by the diversity. The only Big Y so far are myself and the Druze sample, but we were pretty far apart. More Big Y should provide new sub clades under L1b2c.

The L-PH8 guys are quiet in this thread!

Is the Baloch sample from HGDP? Do you know which sample exactly? I'm trying to find all the HGDP samples y-HG. There was some y-data attached to the samples on y-str.org and when you ran that, all the Baloch samples were L. I assumed it was inaccurate so I didn't add them.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 01:36 AM
I haven't gone through my whole list yet, but here are the few L's I've come across so far:



AFG; KANDAHAR - Pashtun [Ayubi]
F > GHIJK > HIJK > IJK > K > LT > L > L-M22 > L-M2481 > L-L1307


SINDH - [heksindhi]
F > GHIJK > HIJK > IJK > K > LT > L > L-M22 > L-M2481 > L-L1307 > L-L1307*


AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]
F > GHIJK > HIJK > IJK > K > LT > L > L-M22 > L-M2481 > L-L1307 > L-L1307*

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 01:38 AM
Nomenclature updates can be so confusing. I just had to check up, so for the record ...


Y haplogroup L3 became renamed L1c, which was renamed again as L1a2 (L-M357). That helps me! L3 or L1c under ISOGG 2017 are L1a2. Please continue. ;-) The mysterious L.

Haha, this is why I stick the SNPs, it's much easier to keep track of.

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 01:45 AM
@khanabadoshi Qamar Study 2002. "CEPH Human Genome Diversity Panel (HGDP), sample ID HGDP00134, which is a Makrani from Pakistan.".

bmoney
11-09-2017, 01:48 AM
Is the Baloch sample from HGDP? Do you know which sample exactly? I'm trying to find all the HGDP samples y-HG. There was some y-data attached to the samples on y-str.org and when you ran that, all the Baloch samples were L. I assumed it was inaccurate so I didn't add them.

This is probably a biased sample or close relatives, Baluchis do have 25% L but that leaves 75% non-L

Its like the Raqqah Chechen descendents who all carry L due to founder effect

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 01:51 AM
I've read contradicting hypotheses of the origins of the Balochi. Isn't the language considered Iranic?

bmoney
11-09-2017, 01:57 AM
I've read contradicting hypotheses of the origins of the Balochi. Isn't the language considered Iranic?

Yep NW Iranian with Kurdish

My hypothesis is that they are Iranianized Brahuis (Dravidian) since they are genetically indistinguishable from the Brahui

It could be an earlier split from a Kurd-like population who Iranianized the Brahui - there were later Kurd migrations to Pakistan as well from probably the same source area though these spoke Kurdish

User @kurd is one of them, he would be best placed to answer this

anthroin
11-09-2017, 02:20 AM
LOL I appreciated this thread so much that I thanked each and every post of it till now, without even reading them. Hope this thread never reaches its end, all the while being educational. Will go through the thread during leisure. But guys, please try to do something like this for the other important Y-DNA haplogroups of India like H, C, O and T also and make the most up-to-date compendium of knowledge and thought about these haplogroups, the sub-haplogroups, etc., to the finest detail. Too much to ask for I know, but letting know what I wish for is perhaps not such a bad idea I think and this is perhaps the best occasion to do that.

But then, please everyone know that there is absolutely no need for any of us to feel awkward when what I wished for above does not materialise ever lol.

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 02:37 AM
:beerchug:

We da real civilization builders - bloody Siberian Indo-Europeans taking our fertile land in Iran and India :P




Favourite post in the thread @anthroin :-D

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 02:39 AM
Then just outside of this L1 remit ... the highly enigmatic L2 (L-L595) of Europe. Shadowy suggestions of a Neolithic survival in Europe.

bmoney
11-09-2017, 02:44 AM
LOL I appreciated this thread so much that I thanked each and every post of it till now, without even reading them. Hope this thread never reaches its end, all the while being educational. Will go through the thread during leisure. But guys, please try to do something like this for the other important Y-DNA haplogroups of India like H, C, O and T also and make the most up-to-date compendium of knowledge and thought about these haplogroups, the sub-haplogroups, etc., to the finest detail. Too much to ask for I know, but letting know what I wish for is perhaps not such a bad idea I think and this is perhaps the best occasion to do that.

But then, please everyone know that there is absolutely no need for any of us to feel awkward when what I wished for above does not materialise ever lol.

Haha yes us Ls are all about fun

Id say the only haplogroups more or equally under-researched as L in South Asia is H and R2 - H is also the majority of the population

Seems to have some ancient Eurasian roots that haplogroup, would be interested to read more about it

Also, don't want to keep this thread focussed on South Asia, I want to read more about European/Levantine/Caucasian L

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 03:08 AM
Yes, there's usually a good contribution from the Pontic Greek and other L-PH8. I expect they'll post later.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 04:31 AM
LOL I appreciated this thread so much that I thanked each and every post of it till now, without even reading them. Hope this thread never reaches its end, all the while being educational. Will go through the thread during leisure. But guys, please try to do something like this for the other important Y-DNA haplogroups of India like H, C, O and T also and make the most up-to-date compendium of knowledge and thought about these haplogroups, the sub-haplogroups, etc., to the finest detail. Too much to ask for I know, but letting know what I wish for is perhaps not such a bad idea I think and this is perhaps the best occasion to do that.

But then, please everyone know that there is absolutely no need for any of us to feel awkward when what I wished for above does not materialise ever lol.

Until I started categorizing the HG and HGDP samples, I didn't realize how much H or C and O there is. But forreal there is A LOT of H. I know nothing about H at all LOL.

jesus
11-09-2017, 04:36 AM
H is kinda weird. Some subclades look strictly south Asian, while other subclades seem early European farmer related.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 04:45 AM
@khanabadoshi Qamar Study 2002. "CEPH Human Genome Diversity Panel (HGDP), sample ID HGDP00134, which is a Makrani from Pakistan.".

Thanks.

Of note, I got MAKRANI_HGDP00130 and his mtDNA from phylotree is L1b1a3a.

However, he is definitely Siddi-Makrani as he has significant African admixture:



West_Asia
31.18


NE_Europe
7.11


Americas
1.48


Siberia
0.34


Oceania
0.22


South_Asia
13.41


NE_Asia
-


East_Africa
3.89


SE_Asia
1.74


SW_Europe
-


SW_Asia
4.71


West_Africa
33.15


South_Africa
2.77




Here is MAKRANI_HGDP00134 admixture:



West_Asia
56.54


NE_Europe
6.16


Americas
0.14


Siberia
1.03


Oceania
-


South_Asia
19.18


NE_Asia
-


East_Africa
1.50


SE_Asia
0.18


SW_Europe
1.39


SW_Asia
7.22


West_Africa
5.56


South_Africa
1.10




So he is a lot less admixed with Siddi. Interesting.


Off topic:

https://i.gyazo.com/7439906b1d75f196a5629fc10cb9102e.png

Looks like I'm out of a job, boys!

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 04:50 AM
Thanks.

Of note, I got MAKRANI_HGDP00130 and his mtDNA from phylotree is L1b1a3a.

However, he is definitely Siddi-Makrani as he has significant African admixture:



West_Asia
31.18


NE_Europe
7.11


Americas
1.48


Siberia
0.34


Oceania
0.22


South_Asia
13.41


NE_Asia
-


East_Africa
3.89


SE_Asia
1.74


SW_Europe
-


SW_Asia
4.71


West_Africa
33.15


South_Africa
2.77




Here is MAKRANI_HGDP00134 admixture:



West_Asia
56.54


NE_Europe
6.16


Americas
0.14


Siberia
1.03


Oceania
-


South_Asia
19.18


NE_Asia
-


East_Africa
1.50


SE_Asia
0.18


SW_Europe
1.39


SW_Asia
7.22


West_Africa
5.56


South_Africa
1.10




So he is a lot less admixed with Siddi. Interesting.



I didn't know that. I did understand that he was a Balochi speaker?

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 05:22 AM
I didn't know that. I did understand that he was a Balochi speaker?

So, of the Makrani samples in HGDP, some are Sheedi/Siddi (ie. Bantu) admixed, as that population is mostly settled in the Makran region, while others are Baloch, and many are some level of admixture between. They are probably all Balochi speaking (of the Makrani dialect). So when looking at the Makrani samples under the scope of mtDNA or yDNA you have to keep in mind there is an African connection for some of them. Makran specifically refers to the red area (It's not entirely accurate but give you an idea):

https://i.gyazo.com/f1bafc17593241f50ad1d3979c1bd2e0.jpg

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 05:36 AM
That is excellent, thank you for explaining so well!

pegasus
11-09-2017, 07:27 AM
Until I started categorizing the HG an.d HGDP samples, I didn't realize how much H or C and O there is. But forreal there is A LOT of H. I know nothing about H at all LOL.

H is very much a SA marker, my guess is if they find an upper Paleolithic South Asian he is going to be H very likely.

Ebizur
11-09-2017, 08:09 AM
H is very much a SA marker, my guess is if they find an upper Paleolithic South Asian he is going to be H very likely.More important than the fact that Y-DNA haplogroup H has been found with notable frequency among modern South Asian males is the fact that it subsumes a great number of subclades with very ancient TMRCA estimates based solely on data from South Asian males. Even ignoring the European/West Asian basal branch (i.e. H-P96, former F3), the level of diversity within South Asian haplogroup H is so great (and, at least among extant humans, almost unique to people living in that region) that it probably has been present in the region for more than 42,000 years.

Haplogroup L is significantly less diverse. Even the basal European L-L595 (attested to date in Sardinia and Germany if I remember correctly) probably shares a common ancestor with the more widespread subclades of L-M22 less than 26,000 years ago.

wgjkkwjkf
11-09-2017, 11:15 AM
Until I started categorizing the HG and HGDP samples, I didn't realize how much H or C and O there is. But forreal there is A LOT of H. I know nothing about H at all LOL.

I think there is likely to be a lot more H in Pakistan than shown by the studies so far because many groups there have not been tested.

BMG
11-09-2017, 11:16 AM
Thats a very rare subclade in India, what caste was he?

Most Indians & Baluchis belong to L1a-M76 like myself, and the greatest L diversity now is in Southwestern Pakistan

Kalash mostly belong to L1c
We are Christians .
Though rare L1c seems to have some diversity in South India . There is also a L1c paniya tribal sample which seems to have diverged earlier than other South Asian lines in a mostly South Asian subgroup . The other subgroup too have South asians but have more gulf Arabs and chechens

wgjkkwjkf
11-09-2017, 11:21 AM
We are Christians .
Though rare L1c seems to have some diversity in South India . There is also a L1c paniya tribal sample which seems to have diverged earlier than other South Asian lines in yfull

Do you know which group you belonged to before becoming Christians?

wgjkkwjkf
11-09-2017, 11:27 AM
Also, all the Punjabi Arains I've seen (only 4) have mtDNA J1

They might have been related in some way?

BMG
11-09-2017, 11:31 AM
Do you know which group you belonged to before becoming Christians?
No .My ancestors probably have converted almost 1000 years back .

bmoney
11-09-2017, 11:34 AM
Looks like I'm out of a job, boys!

Nah Khana, your rotating 3d-pcas are the real deal, the rest are fakes/haterz

bmoney
11-09-2017, 11:36 AM
No .My ancestors probably have converted almost 1000 years back .

I'm not surprised that theres L diversification in India - its old in South Asia so would have drifted quite a bit from the European clades

I'm guessing you guys are Syrian Christians - in the Hindu caste system of southern Kerala you guys are considered high caste

My family is from north Kerala, the area is mostly Hindus and Muslims

Do the Knanaya people differ genetically?

BMG
11-09-2017, 11:47 AM
I'm not surprised that theres L diversification in India - its old in South Asia so would have drifted quite a bit from the European clades

I'm guessing you guys are Syrian Christians - in the Hindu caste system of southern Kerala you guys are considered high caste

My family is from north Kerala, the area is mostly Hindus and Muslims

Do the Knanaya people differ genetically?

Knanaya seems to have slightly higher Caucasus and sw Asian in Harappa world with lower South Indian . But there are non knanaya with similar levels too . So I don't have a clear answer

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 12:44 PM
They might have been related in some way?

I actually believe they are related. Cousins, I think. I'll have to check.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 03:06 PM
I think there is likely to be a lot more H in Pakistan than shown by the studies so far because many groups there have not been tested.

There is a lot of H, many of the Punjabi in Lahore samples are H.

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 05:29 PM
Can we discuss the home of L here? It's a very old haplogroup. Where do the most L men live today? India or Pakistan? However, did it originate there, or as in the case perhaps of Y hg R1a/b did it originate outside of it's present day zones of high density?

My favoured home of L is Western Asia, in a band between Syria and Pakistan. The reason is that it is there that I see the highest frequency of older variations.

Where did the L1 / L2 divergence occur?

Today L1 is dispersed between Southern Asia, Central Asia, Western Asia, and Europe.
The ultra rare L2 is only found in Europe (Sardinia, UK, etc), with it's furthest eastern records so far in Azerbaijan and Tatarstan.

Where did the L1a / L1b divergence occur?

Today L1a is dispersed between Southern Asia, Central Asia, and South West Asia. Although best known in South Asia, It reaches westwards into Arabia and the Levant. The only ancient DNA recovered so far was Copper Age at Birds Eye Cave in Armenia, on the north west edge of it's current range. We have all heard the rumours of samples to come out of Indus Valley.
L1b on the other hand looks more western. It has a variety of sub clades in Central Asia, South West Asia, and in Europe. I know that South Asia is under sampled but does L1b have much of a presence there?

Conventional wisdom, based on present density, suggests India / Pakistan to be the home of L, and indeed, this is usually supported by vendors of direct DNA testing-to-the-consumer. To my amateur eyes though, these early deviations appear to take place more in that band between Syria and Pakistan, possibly focusing on Iraq / Iran.

It could be that I'm seeing this with the bias of a western perspective, or the bias that my personal sub clade appears to hail from that zone. Apologies if that is the case.

Thoughts?

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 05:35 PM
Additionally, can we tie any of the early divergences in L to climatic events such as the LGM, warming periods, etc. Can we tie anything in addition to early agricultural activity?

bmoney
11-09-2017, 11:44 PM
Can we discuss the home of L here? It's a very old haplogroup. Where do the most L men live today? India or Pakistan? However, did it originate there, or as in the case perhaps of Y hg R1a/b did it originate outside of it's present day zones of high density?

My favoured home of L is Western Asia, in a band between Syria and Pakistan. The reason is that it is there that I see the highest frequency of older variations.

Where did the L1 / L2 divergence occur?

Today L1 is dispersed between Southern Asia, Central Asia, Western Asia, and Europe.
The ultra rare L2 is only found in Europe (Sardinia, UK, etc), with it's furthest eastern records so far in Azerbaijan and Tatarstan.

Where did the L1a / L1b divergence occur?

Today L1a is dispersed between Southern Asia, Central Asia, and South West Asia. Although best known in South Asia, It reaches westwards into Arabia and the Levant. The only ancient DNA recovered so far was Copper Age at Birds Eye Cave in Armenia, on the north west edge of it's current range. We have all heard the rumours of samples to come out of Indus Valley.
L1b on the other hand looks more western. It has a variety of sub clades in Central Asia, South West Asia, and in Europe. I know that South Asia is under sampled but does L1b have much of a presence there?

Conventional wisdom, based on present density, suggests India / Pakistan to be the home of L, and indeed, this is usually supported by vendors of direct DNA testing-to-the-consumer. To my amateur eyes though, these early deviations appear to take place more in that band between Syria and Pakistan, possibly focusing on Iraq / Iran.

It could be that I'm seeing this with the bias of a western perspective, or the bias that my personal sub clade appears to hail from that zone. Apologies if that is the case.

Thoughts?

L1b is not found in South Asia from what i've seen so far. The easternmost distribution is Makranis who have low levels of it, Afghan Pashtuns and Uzbeks

Interestingly L1b reaches 42% among the Kartvelian Laz people which is the highest % of L among any non-bottlenecked/village populations worldwide apart from Parsi Priests like Jesus and Afshar Turks- not sure if these populations are founder effected though. The Laz people are geographically close to Areni-1

EDIT:
If we want to find the point of greatest diversity, we need to find the area with the most subclades at around equal or similar proportions - so far for L1 that place looks like Iran

where in Iran I can't say until we get better samples

L2 - have no idea where this could be

South Asia is definitely not the home of L so the DNA testing vendors are being intellectually lazy:
L1b hardly makes a presence in South Asia apart from the fringes
We would have seen Roma like autosomal signatures coming to Ls outside South Asia with the founders, which is not the case

A Norfolk L-M20
11-09-2017, 11:57 PM
Another interesting sub clade is L-M349 (L1b1). That appears to be the most western L1 sub clade, with clusters in Europe, as well as the Levant and Arabian Gulf. I wonder when that one entered Europe? I think much later than L-L595 (L2). It's the most common L in Europe.

bmoney
11-10-2017, 03:29 AM
Another interesting sub clade is L-M349 (L1b1). That appears to be the most western L1 sub clade, with clusters in Europe, as well as the Levant and Arabian Gulf. I wonder when that one entered Europe? I think much later than L-L595 (L2). It's the most common L in Europe.

Would you know which modern population has the highest frequency of L1b1?

A Norfolk L-M20
11-10-2017, 03:45 AM
Absolutely no idea. In Europe L-M349 forms the Rhine-Danube-Volga cluster. It also appears along the European Med, with I believe a bit of a spike in Italy, then around to Portugal. I thought that there were stats somewhere, where L actually pops up as a percentage in an Italian district. However, it is also found in the Levant, Armenia, Turkey, and Arabia. Very much the Western Branch of L1. I have also elsewhere seen it sometimes associated with Ashkenazi lines.

bmoney
11-10-2017, 04:21 AM
Absolutely no idea. In Europe L-M349 forms the Rhine-Danube-Volga cluster. It also appears along the European Med, with I believe a bit of a spike in Italy, then around to Portugal. I thought that there were stats somewhere, where L actually pops up as a percentage in an Italian district. However, it is also found in the Levant, Armenia, Turkey, and Arabia. Very much the Western Branch of L1. I have also elsewhere seen it sometimes associated with Ashkenazi lines.

Yep northern Italy particularly Fascia at 20% - probably linked to a Rhine-Danube cluster founder

Also fairly significant levels in other northern Italian provinces

Probably brought to Europe by Levant farmers

vettor
11-10-2017, 04:39 AM
Yep northern Italy particularly Fascia at 20% - probably linked to a Rhine-Danube cluster founder

Also fairly significant levels in other northern Italian provinces

Probably brought to Europe by Levant farmers

Speak to Chris at ftdna alpine project and he will tell you about the L (ydna ) below

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

bmoney
11-10-2017, 06:18 AM
Speak to Chris at ftdna alpine project and he will tell you about the L (ydna ) below

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

Thanks vettor

How do I find the contact details?

vettor
11-10-2017, 06:53 PM
Thanks vettor

How do I find the contact details?

[email protected]

bmoney
11-11-2017, 01:45 AM
Highest frequency - feel free to add to this:

L - subclade? - Korava - Dravidian Scheduled Tribe - 68%
L1b - Laz people - Kartvelian - 42%
L = subclade? = Afshar Turks - Turkic - 57%
L1a - Baloch - NW Iranian - 28%? - some of this is L1c
L1c - Kalash - Dardic - 25%
L - subclade? - Iranian Zoroastrian Priests - SW Iranian - 55%
L - subclade? - Raqqah Syrians (Chechen ancestry) - Caucasian - 51%
L - subclade? - Jats (all religions) - Indo-Aryan - 37%

parasar
11-11-2017, 04:22 AM
Thanks vettor

How do I find the contact details?

I would also add that vettor has may insights on the T side - and to look for the origin of L, you really have to comprehensively look at L, T, LT, and K2.

Ebizur
11-11-2017, 05:26 AM
I would also add that vettor has may insights on the T side - and to look for the origin of L, you really have to comprehensively look at L, T, LT, and K2.Not really. There appears to be a tremendous temporal gap between the MRCA of K1 and K2 (TMRCA 45,400 [95% CI 41,400 <-> 49,600] ybp according to YFull YTree v5.07) or the MRCA of L and T (TMRCA 42,600 [95% CI 39,700 <-> 45,500] ybp) on the one hand versus the MRCA of L1 and L2 (TMRCA 23,200 [95% CI 20,900 <-> 25,600] ybp) or the MRCA of all extant members of haplogroup T (TMRCA 26,900 [95% CI 24,500 <-> 29,300] ybp) on the other hand. Because there is a gap of at least 10,000 years between the MRCA of L and T and the MRCA of all extant T, one could not confidently infer the region of origin of L, K1, or K from the place of origin of the MRCA of extant T even if one were able to know the latter with perfect precision and certainty.

parasar
11-11-2017, 05:33 AM
Not really. There appears to be a tremendous temporal gap between the MRCA of K1 and K2 (TMRCA 45,400 [95% CI 41,400 <-> 49,600] ybp according to YFull YTree v5.07) or the MRCA of L and T (TMRCA 42,600 [95% CI 39,700 <-> 45,500] ybp) on the one hand versus the MRCA of L1 and L2 (TMRCA 23,200 [95% CI 20,900 <-> 25,600] ybp) or the MRCA of all extant members of haplogroup T (TMRCA 26,900 [95% CI 24,500 <-> 29,300] ybp) on the other hand. Because there is a gap of at least 10,000 years between the MRCA of L and T and the MRCA of all extant T, even could not confidently infer the region of origin of L, K1, or K from the place of origin of the MRCA of extant T even if one were able to know the latter with perfect precision and certainty.

I had mentioned origin of L, not L1 or L2. To look for the origin of L, IMO it is best to look to sister and cousin clades of L rather than daughter ones.

Ebizur
11-11-2017, 05:42 AM
I had mentioned origin of L, not L1 or L2. To look for the origin of L, IMO it is best to look to sister and cousin clades of L rather than daughter ones.And that is what I have implied with my negatory response: looking to the sister and cousin clades of haplogroup L will not serve your purpose of identifying the region of origin of extant haplogroup L. There is too great a temporal gap between the MRCA of T and L and the MRCA of L1 and L2 for the location of the former to have any bearing on the location of the latter. The MRCA of T and L has lived during or slightly after the era of the spread of C and F Y-DNA throughout Eurasia and into Oceania. The MRCA of L1 and L2 (in other words, the MRCA of all known extant members of haplogroup L) has lived less than 26,000 ybp, or probably about 20,000 years after the MRCA of L and T. The locations of L's sister and cousin clades are simply irrelevant to the question of the location of the MRCA of L1 and L2.

parasar
11-11-2017, 05:50 AM
And that is what I have implied with my negatory response: looking to the sister and cousin clades of haplogroup L will not serve your purpose of identifying the region of origin of extant haplogroup L. There is too great a temporal gap between the MRCA of T and L and the MRCA of L1 and L2 for the location of the former to have any bearing on the location of the latter. The MRCA of T and L has lived during or slightly after the era of the spread of C and F Y-DNA throughout Eurasia and into Oceania. The MRCA of L1 and L2 (in other words, the MRCA of all known extant members of haplogroup L) has lived less than 26,000 ybp, or probably about 20,000 years after the MRCA of L and T. The locations of L's sister and cousin clades are simply irrelevant to the question of the location of the MRCA of L1 and L2.

Extant L, where did I say that? Place of origin of L is what is at issue. I don't think there is that much of a temporal gap between the origins of L and T, or K2.

Ebizur
11-11-2017, 06:08 AM
Extant L, where did I say that. Place of origin of L is what is at issue.I'm sorry, parasar, but why should anyone care about the place of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)L?

By definition, the location of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)L is identical to the location of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)T immediately after their genealogical split (with the exception of any mobility on the part of their parents). You are correct insomuch as the estimated interclade TMRCA of L and T is not significantly different from the estimated intraclade TMRCA of extant K2 or the estimated interclade TMRCA of K1 and K2. However, as I have mentioned in my previous reply to you, these splits appear to have occurred during the process of the initial range expansion of populations bearing F (probably also C, and perhaps even D) Y-DNA over Eurasia and Oceania.

parasar
11-11-2017, 06:23 AM
I'm sorry, parasar, but why should anyone care about the place of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)L?

By definition, the location of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)L is identical to the location of origin of the ur-ancestor of (pre-)T immediately after their genealogical split (with the exception of any mobility on the part of their parents). You are correct insomuch as the estimated interclade TMRCA of L and T is not significantly different from the estimated intraclade TMRCA of extant K2 or the estimated interclade TMRCA of K1 and K2. However, as I have mentioned in my previous reply to you, these splits appear to have occurred during the process of the initial range expansion of populations bearing F (probably also C, and perhaps even D) Y-DNA over Eurasia and Oceania.

Ebizur,
It is not the question of why one should care about the question or issue, but the question itself. When one looks to find the origin of R, we are not looking from the point of view of extant R1a or R1b or R2, which indeed may be more relevant to present day populations. While it is true that these L,T, K2 splits are remote, and yes not that separated from F and C, but it is still of interest.

Ebizur
11-11-2017, 06:43 AM
Ebizur,
It is not the question of why one should care about the question or issue, but the question itself.Pray tell, just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


When one looks to find the origin of R, we are not looking from the point of view of extant R1a or R1b or R2, which indeed may be more relevant to present day populations.I am not so sure about that. I think the standard "received view" of this matter is that the origin of "haplogroup R" is defined as the origin of the MRCA of all extant members of haplogroup R (i.e. those who are positive for all SNPs taken to define "haplogroup R") and not the origin of the MRCA of haplogroup R and its nearest outgroup (i.e. haplogroup Q), which would rather be the origin of haplogroup P1-M45. Of course, if anyone whose lineage has branched off between the MRCA of haplogroup R and haplogroup Q and the MRCA of haplogroup R1 and haplogroup R2 is found (and such a lineage has been found in the case of the Mal'ta specimen), then present haplogroup R1 and haplogroup R2 technically ought to be renamed R1a and R1b, and the lineage of the Mal'ta specimen ought to be named R2, but that would be too confusing and labile; hence, the current fashion of using only SNP-based names without an alphanumeric equivalent.


While it is true that these L,T, K2 splits are remote, and yes not that separated from F and C, but it is still of interest.I do not see any evidence to suggest that the MRCA of L and T (and, thus, his two sons, ur-L and ur-T) should be considered separately from the spread of members of IJK-M2682 in general.

GarethH
11-11-2017, 11:56 AM
Absolutely no idea. In Europe L-M349 forms the Rhine-Danube-Volga cluster. It also appears along the European Med, with I believe a bit of a spike in Italy, then around to Portugal. I thought that there were stats somewhere, where L actually pops up as a percentage in an Italian district. However, it is also found in the Levant, Armenia, Turkey, and Arabia. Very much the Western Branch of L1. I have also elsewhere seen it sometimes associated with Ashkenazi lines.

L-M349 appears to have had a massive expansion from a single line around 7,000 years ago, with (at least) three major branches: L-FGC36845 (southern Europe, with many sub branches), L-B374 (Rhine-Danube-Volga) and L-Y31183 (Lebanon). Each of these branches has its own story. I used to think Rhine-Danube must have come up over the Alps from Italy but now we have one academic and two commercial samples from Volga Tatars, a route north from Iran and then westwards north of the Black Sea seems more likely. There is a Big Y test in progress for a southern German L-B374 so we may know a bit more in a month or two.

A Norfolk L-M20
11-11-2017, 07:47 PM
Thanks @GarethH. Have you ascertained anything else this past few years on the FT-DNA Y haplogroup L project? Anything perhaps on L1a, or in L-PH8? I'm glad to see that L-SK1414 has grown so much so quick.

vettor
11-11-2017, 08:04 PM
I would also add that vettor has may insights on the T side - and to look for the origin of L, you really have to comprehensively look at L, T, LT, and K2.

Its no longer K2 ..........renamed in 2014 to K1 ...........K1a = L and K1b = T

parasar
11-11-2017, 09:57 PM
Its no longer K2 ..........renamed in 2014 to K1 ...........K1a = L and K1b = T

Yes thanks. By K2 I was referring to the non LT group. But yes finding K1* would be helpful.

bmoney
11-16-2017, 12:48 AM
New Paper with reference to L in Mesopotamia. Highest frequency in the Yazidis (L1b)

11 different haplogroups were observed in Yazidis, with the three most common being R1b (20.79%), L (11.88%) and G2a / J2a1x J2a1b/h (10.89%)

L was other quite small in proportion in other ethnic groups, mostly L1a with some L1b and L1c

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0187408

Anabasis
11-16-2017, 05:04 PM
New Paper with reference to L in Mesopotamia. Highest frequency in the Yazidis (L1b)

11 different haplogroups were observed in Yazidis, with the three most common being R1b (20.79%), L (11.88%) and G2a / J2a1x J2a1b/h (10.89%)

L was other quite small in proportion in other ethnic groups, mostly L1a with some L1b and L1c

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0187408
Yezidi Ls are L1b and most probably most of them are under L1b>m349. Other L in the paper have diverse subs groups. Arabs arenmostly L1a some turkmens might have PH8 (most probably they are descenants of exiled turkmen tribes from ottoman empire from inner anatolia)

GarethH
11-16-2017, 11:19 PM
Yezidi Ls are L1b and most probably most of them are under L1b>m349. Other L in the paper have diverse subs groups. Arabs arenmostly L1a some turkmens might have PH8 (most probably they are descenants of exiled turkmen tribes from ottoman empire from inner anatolia)

Almost all the Yazidi L's are closely related to each other within L-M349 as there is a strong modal haplotype. There is one clear outlier Yz-M-106 who might not even be L-M349. The possible L-M27's are very diverse, I think the diversity in L-M27 decreases as you go east into South Asia even as the population % increases (same "wave of advance" effect as European R1b in the opposite direction).

bmoney
11-16-2017, 11:32 PM
Almost all the Yazidi L's are closely related to each other within L-M349 as there is a strong modal haplotype. There is one clear outlier Yz-M-106 who might not even be L-M349. The possible L-M27's are very diverse, I think the diversity in L-M27 decreases as you go east into South Asia even as the population % increases (same "wave of advance" effect as European R1b in the opposite direction).

Yep, R1a1a is also similar in South Asia

Arlus
11-17-2017, 07:54 PM
..deleted..

bmoney
04-01-2018, 12:39 AM
From the latest South and Central Asia paper ancient L1a's (finally).

I extracted all the L1as, unfortunately undifferentiated. My theory is that the Uzbek samples were L1a2 and the Pakistan ones were L1a1:


I5604 K1a1 L1a Bustan_BA 1880-1697 calBCE (346520 BP, PSUAMS-2774) Uzbekistan
S10001.E1.L1 R30b1 L1a Loebanr_IA 1300-1000 BCE Pakistan
S10974.Y1.E1.L1 .. L1a Loebanr_IA 900-800 BCE Pakistan
I6555 M4 L1a Loebanr_IA 906-820 calBCE (272020 BP, PSUAMS-2797) Pakistan
I6554 T2g1 L1a Loebanr_IA_father.I6292 831-796 calBCE (264520 BP, PSUAMS-2796) Pakistan
I8220 .. L1a Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all 970-550 BCE Pakistan
S7721.E1.L1 R6b L1a Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I4285 U7a3 L1a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1873-1661 calBCE (343025 BP, PSUAMS-2536) Uzbekistan
I5604 K1a1 L1a Bustan_BA 1880-1697 calBCE (346520 BP, PSUAMS-2774) Uzbekistan
S10001.E1.L1 R30b1 L1a Loebanr_IA 1300-1000 BCE Pakistan
S10974.Y1.E1.L1 .. L1a Loebanr_IA 900-800 BCE Pakistan
I6555 M4 L1a Loebanr_IA 906-820 calBCE (272020 BP, PSUAMS-2797) Pakistan
I6554 T2g1 L1a Loebanr_IA_father.I6292 831-796 calBCE (264520 BP, PSUAMS-2796) Pakistan
I8220 .. L1a Pakistan_IA_Aligrama_all 970-550 BCE Pakistan
S7721.E1.L1 R6b L1a Saidu_Sharif_IA 500-300 BCE Pakistan
I4285 U7a3 L1a Sappali_Tepe_BA 1873-1661 calBCE (343025 BP, PSUAMS-2536) Uzbekistan

bmoney
04-30-2018, 01:10 AM
Elite Hun from Hungary DA85 L-M27/L1a1 belonging to subclade L-Y31213 mtdna U4

The only L correlation with genome I can find is the fact that they are modelled as 1/4 Baloch who are high in L-M27.

Otherwise the individual seems to be half Sarmatian half Atlaic Hun

Gedmatch kit: Z710382 (its not running for me)

K15 Oracle4 for DA85:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tatar @ 18.311073
2 Chuvash @ 25.314087
3 Nogay @ 25.758036
4 Tadjik @ 26.459642
5 Afghan_Turkmen @ 27.472700
6 Mari @ 28.496529
7 Moldavian @ 28.746031
8 Croatian @ 30.691805
9 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 30.730938
10 Hungarian @ 30.779825
11 Uzbeki @ 30.980347
12 Erzya @ 31.049278
13 Kargopol_Russian @ 31.099756
14 Tabassaran @ 31.103912
15 Afghan_Tadjik @ 31.205748
16 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 31.346106
17 South_Polish @ 32.007481
18 Serbian @ 32.055676
19 Southwest_Russian @ 32.204113
20 Ukrainian @ 32.270454

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Finnish +50% Tadjik @ 10.547200

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Chuvash +25% Makrani +25% Norwegian @ 9.917451

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran + Tadjik @ 8.085356
2 Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran + Tadjik @ 8.150370
3 Finnish + Mari + Tabassaran + Tadjik @ 8.165405
4 Afghan_Pashtun + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran @ 8.298489
5 Kalash + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 8.307493
6 Afghan_Pashtun + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 8.357798
7 Kalash + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran @ 8.363769
8 Afghan_Pashtun + Finnish + Mari + Tabassaran @ 8.395761
9 Burusho + Mari + North_Swedish + Tabassaran @ 8.432208
10 East_Finnish + Mari + Tabassaran + Tadjik @ 8.436080
11 Brahui + Chuvash + Mari + Norwegian @ 8.457118
12 Brahui + Chuvash + Irish + Mari @ 8.490207
13 Balochi + Chuvash + Mari + Norwegian @ 8.514278
14 Balochi + Chuvash + Irish + Mari @ 8.518743
15 Finnish + Kalash + Mari + Tabassaran @ 8.569997
16 Burusho + Mari + Southwest_Finnish + Tabassaran @ 8.589872
17 Brahui + Chuvash + Mari + West_Scottish @ 8.613857
18 Balochi + Chuvash + Mari + North_German @ 8.639964
19 Balochi + Chuvash + Mari + West_Scottish @ 8.644436
20 Brahui + Chuvash + Chuvash + Norwegian @ 8.644952

MDLP K16

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.5% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 38.5% Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) @ 7.86
2 71.7% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 28.3% Jatt (Haryana) @ 7.91
3 75.1% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 24.9% Burusho (Pakistan) @ 7.95
4 60.6% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 39.4% Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) @ 8.02
5 59.4% Udmurd (Udmurtia) + 40.6% Shugnan (Badachshan) @ 8.05


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Shugnan_Badachshan +25% Tubalar_(Altai) +25% Vepsa_Russia @ 6.442919


Punt k12

1 Balochi + Estonian + Lezgin + Selkup @ 4.662281
2 Balochi + Lezgin + Lithuanian + Selkup @ 4.662537
3 Brahui + Estonian + Lezgin + Selkup @ 4.796335
4 Brahui + Lezgin + Lithuanian + Selkup @ 4.799502
5 Estonian + Lezgin + Makrani + Selkup @ 4.888319
6 Balochi + Lithuanian + North_Ossetian + Selkup @ 4.915496

Nmonte from @Shaikorth

Hunnic_Hungary_scaled:DA85

Sarmatian_Pokrovka 50.70
Hunnic_Tien_Shan:DA101 23.05
Altai_IA 17.95
Udmurt 5.85
Tajik 2.45
Tabasaran 0.00
Lithuanian 0.00
Finnish 0.00
Nordic_IA 0.00
Slavic_Bohemia 0.00
Germany_Medieval 0.00

Kambo
04-30-2018, 01:45 AM
Proto Elamite Dravidian IVC Kura araxes unity! :P

Btw, The Parsi priest class(formed after their arrival to India) are around 55% Y-DNA L(mostly L1b with a smaller amount of L1a)

This makes sense. There it is.

Caspian
04-30-2018, 05:26 AM
L1b is still absent in Ancient DNA... :(

bmoney
07-26-2018, 07:43 AM
Via our T clade cousin Vettor an update on LT:

The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304. Moreover, like J1-M267 and J2-M172, L-M20 and T-M184 probably co-evolved in Southwest Asia co-expanded into adjacent regions during the Neolithic. It should be noted that the evolution of L-M20 in South Asia, as suggested by some studies, is inconsistent with the genetic and archaeological evidence. Rather, data suggest that the Neolithic farmers of Southwest Asia must have been a population in Anatolia having of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M304 and LT-L298. When these farmers expanded out of Anatolia, their genes and languages followed. The linguistic relics of this expansion include Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European and Dravidian languages. As such, the Early Farming Dispersal Hypothesis provides a robust model of prehistoric language dispersals. From a big picture genetic perspective, LT-L298, G-M201, E-M96 played important supporting roles in the Southwest Asian Neolithic expansion, whereas the main actor was clearly J-M304.

http://www.genlinginterface.com/updates/update-for-l-m20-and-t-m184/

Based on the above paragraph, haplogroups are defined by a complex interplay of
phylogenetic distance, evolutionary history, expansion history, and the archaeological record.
The data for L-M20 and T-M184 indicate that their evolutionary and expansion history mimic
that of the J1-M267 and J2-M172. As such, they should be considered subclades of a new
LT-L298 haplogroup. Furthermore, the data suggest that although the archeological,
evolutionary, and expansion history of Haplogroups J-M304, G-M201 and LT-L298 are
strikingly similar, they are, nevertheless, defined as haplogroups because of phylogenetic
distance.

Relationship to SW Asia and similarity to y-J and G:

An important observation
comes from these data: the distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304
(see Section 5.10 and Table 5.10.1). Populations with LT-L298 and J-M304 are found in the
Southwest Asia, the Caucasus, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, South Asia, Central
Asia, and East Asia. Thus, the data point to a prehistoric population in Anatolia with variants
of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M204 and LT-L298. Then, during the Southwest Asian
Neolithic, something occurred that resulted in a very rapid star-like dispersal of both genes
and farming from the Black Sea.
It should be emphasized that the co-evolution of L-M20 and T-M184 in Southwest
Asia, and their Neolithic expansion from this region, are supported by ancient DNA data.
Lazaridis et al. (2016) reported the discovery of L1a-M27 from three ancient DNA samples
taken from Areni cave in southern Armenia. These samples are about six thousand years old,
and as such, date to the Neolithic. Additionally, the same study reports the discovery of a TM184
sample from an individual that died almost ten thousand years ago at Ain Ghazal
settlement in Jordan, remains that also date to the Neolithic. Finally, a T1a-M70 sample was
found at a Neolithic Linearbandkeramik site in Karsdorf, Germany, which dates to about
seven thousand years ago (Haak et al. 2015)

In order to identify the region where L-M20 evolved, researchers should consider the
overall distribution of LT-L298 variation. L-M20 and T-M184 mutations (see Tables 5.11.1
and 5.11.2) are found in Turkey, Lebanon, and in the Caucasus, and as such, in close
geographical proximity to the source population that expanded during the Southwest Asian
Neolithic. Furthermore, as explained previously in Section 5.11.2, the distribution of LTL298
in Eurasia and Africa roughly follows that of J-M304. Finally, as previously noted
(5.11.2), much of the L-M20 and T-M184 diversification occurred during the Neolithic.

L and T are actually subclades of LT not individual haplogroups, LT is the haplogroup:

Contrary
to the standard nomenclature, the data suggest that LT-L298 represents a haplogroup rather
than higher level paragroup mutation. Furthermore, contrary to the standard YCC 2002
nomenclature, L-M20 and T-M184 are not haplogroups. Rather, the data suggest that they are
subclades within a new LT-L298 haplogroup

vettor
07-26-2018, 08:06 PM
Via our T clade cousin Vettor an update on LT:

The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304. Moreover, like J1-M267 and J2-M172, L-M20 and T-M184 probably co-evolved in Southwest Asia co-expanded into adjacent regions during the Neolithic. It should be noted that the evolution of L-M20 in South Asia, as suggested by some studies, is inconsistent with the genetic and archaeological evidence. Rather, data suggest that the Neolithic farmers of Southwest Asia must have been a population in Anatolia having of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M304 and LT-L298. When these farmers expanded out of Anatolia, their genes and languages followed. The linguistic relics of this expansion include Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European and Dravidian languages. As such, the Early Farming Dispersal Hypothesis provides a robust model of prehistoric language dispersals. From a big picture genetic perspective, LT-L298, G-M201, E-M96 played important supporting roles in the Southwest Asian Neolithic expansion, whereas the main actor was clearly J-M304.

http://www.genlinginterface.com/updates/update-for-l-m20-and-t-m184/

Interesting, the paper is also suggesting J1 and J2 fall within LT

Based on the above paragraph, haplogroups are defined by a complex interplay of
phylogenetic distance, evolutionary history, expansion history, and the archaeological record.
The data for L-M20 and T-M184 indicate that their evolutionary and expansion history mimic
that of the J1-M267 and J2-M172. As such, they should be considered subclades of a new
LT-L298 haplogroup. Furthermore, the data suggest that although the archeological,
evolutionary, and expansion history of Haplogroups J-M304, G-M201 and LT-L298 are
strikingly similar, they are, nevertheless, defined as haplogroups because of phylogenetic
distance.

Relationship to SW Asia and similarity to y-J and G:

An important observation
comes from these data: the distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304
(see Section 5.10 and Table 5.10.1). Populations with LT-L298 and J-M304 are found in the
Southwest Asia, the Caucasus, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, Europe, South Asia, Central
Asia, and East Asia. Thus, the data point to a prehistoric population in Anatolia with variants
of Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M204 and LT-L298. Then, during the Southwest Asian
Neolithic, something occurred that resulted in a very rapid star-like dispersal of both genes
and farming from the Black Sea.
It should be emphasized that the co-evolution of L-M20 and T-M184 in Southwest
Asia, and their Neolithic expansion from this region, are supported by ancient DNA data.
Lazaridis et al. (2016) reported the discovery of L1a-M27 from three ancient DNA samples
taken from Areni cave in southern Armenia. These samples are about six thousand years old,
and as such, date to the Neolithic. Additionally, the same study reports the discovery of a TM184
sample from an individual that died almost ten thousand years ago at Ain Ghazal
settlement in Jordan, remains that also date to the Neolithic. Finally, a T1a-M70 sample was
found at a Neolithic Linearbandkeramik site in Karsdorf, Germany, which dates to about
seven thousand years ago (Haak et al. 2015)

In order to identify the region where L-M20 evolved, researchers should consider the
overall distribution of LT-L298 variation. L-M20 and T-M184 mutations (see Tables 5.11.1
and 5.11.2) are found in Turkey, Lebanon, and in the Caucasus, and as such, in close
geographical proximity to the source population that expanded during the Southwest Asian
Neolithic. Furthermore, as explained previously in Section 5.11.2, the distribution of LTL298
in Eurasia and Africa roughly follows that of J-M304. Finally, as previously noted
(5.11.2), much of the L-M20 and T-M184 diversification occurred during the Neolithic.

L and T are actually subclades of LT not individual haplogroups, LT is the haplogroup:

Contrary
to the standard nomenclature, the data suggest that LT-L298 represents a haplogroup rather
than higher level paragroup mutation. Furthermore, contrary to the standard YCC 2002
nomenclature, L-M20 and T-M184 are not haplogroups. Rather, the data suggest that they are
subclades within a new LT-L298 haplogroup

in yfull 6.03 tree
there are 30 SNP's for haplogroup LT

Jatt1
07-26-2018, 08:25 PM
Elite Hun from Hungary DA85 L-M27/L1a1 belonging to subclade L-Y31213 mtdna U4

The only L correlation with genome I can find is the fact that they are modelled as 1/4 Baloch who are high in L-M27.

Otherwise the individual seems to be half Sarmatian half Atlaic Hun

I bought livingdna kits one came back with L-M27, no downstream subclad, may be they don't even test for any, I am now trying to solve the puzzle. I think livingdna test is not suitable for south Asians but is good for Europeans only.

bmoney
07-27-2018, 01:02 AM
I bought livingdna kits one cane back with L-M27, no downstream subclad, may be they don't even test for one, I am now trying to solve the puzzle. I think livingdna test is not suitable for south Asians but is good for Europeans only.

Livingdna has questionable autosomal ancestry due to low overlap with calculators, but their y-dna testing is fine.

L1a1 (L-M27) is more commonly found in Pahari Jatts among Jatts I've noticed

@Sapporo's spreadsheet shows that Sikh Jatts are mainly L1a2 (L-M357) but there was one or two L1a1 Sikh Jatts.

Jatt1
07-27-2018, 07:07 AM
Livingdna has questionable autosomal ancestry due to low overlap with calculators, but their y-dna testing is fine.

L1a1 (L-M27) is more commonly found in Pahari Jatts among Jatts I've noticed

@Sapporo's spreadsheet shows that Sikh Jatts are mainly L1a2 (L-M357) but there was one or two L1a1 Sikh Jatts.

Could be true, but in this case person is from Jullundur, but why stop at M27 when threre are so many subclads downstream.

bmoney
07-28-2018, 02:24 AM
Could be true, but in this case person is from Jullundur, but why stop at M27 when threre are so many subclads downstream.

Do it, id be interested.

I don't know much about L1a1 subclades. Heres the ftdna page for more information:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults

vettor
07-28-2018, 05:51 PM
for curiosity...my LT-L298 and others from Yfull my report .................did not snip all T and beyond, nor above GHIJK

https://s20.postimg.cc/ods829aul/lt-l298forme.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/o10tw2skp/)

I have many SNP's as positive for LT haplogroup

wondering if there is much difference with others

sultan
01-19-2019, 07:10 AM
28487
The lack of Arabic results is a direct cause of the lack of Rio lines in line L.
This site relies entirely on yfull results only

Lupriac
03-18-2019, 04:50 PM
28487
The lack of Arabic results is a direct cause of the lack of Rio lines in line L.
This site relies entirely on yfull results only

Where do you obtain these maps from? Perhaps you can PM me some of them? Thanks!

bmoney
07-04-2019, 06:18 AM
haplogroup L found amongst the Philistines (1/4 y sequenced), Ashkelon Iron Age sample 87!

https://i.imgur.com/Awet34e.png

scored like this, mostly Levant_N (~70%) with the rest Iran Chl (~30%) and no WHG. My bet is the L is via the Iran_Chl like component

https://i.imgur.com/AiSEU8U.png

Aquilifer
07-20-2019, 04:47 PM
There was an L1 found in the new Viking study from medieval southern Italy. He's roughly 5/8 Southern European/Italian-like and 3/8 Northern European, with the majority of that being Polish-like.

VK538 (M)
Y-DNA L1a1b
mtDNA H+16291
62.6% Italian-like, 23.3% Polish-like, 6.8% British-like, 3.4% Norwegian-like, 3.3% Finnish-like, 0.4% Danish-like, 0.1% Swedish-like

Kale
07-25-2019, 02:38 AM
That seems like an awful lot of mixtures. Is there any single location that would make sense for that?
Start with Italy, go a little North for British and Norwegian, then Eastward to get the Polish?
Austria? Hungary? Idk.

Lupriac
07-25-2019, 08:17 AM
31984

aaronbee2010
07-26-2019, 12:11 AM
A South Indian on FTDNA just did a SNP test and he's the first person I've seen from South Asia who is M27+ and L1320-. Probably not significant to you guys but I thought it was still worth mentioning, perhaps?

His subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y133442*

All other Y13342+ people on FTDNA's L project except for him were also West Asian, however the first Y37 STR's didn't seem to differ that much from the others. He has 111 STR's but 37 is the lowest common denominator, all Y13342+ samples on the project have at least 37 STR's.

jabdnor
08-22-2019, 12:33 AM
I'm a Lebanese Christian and I found out that I am L-M349. This is strange to me because I was expecting to be J1,J2,E1b1b, or other MENA y haplogroup.

dmana
08-23-2019, 11:34 AM
It's not strange for a Lebanese to belong haplogroup L, most statistics that I've seen shows that around 5% of the Lebanese belong to this haplogroup, especially L-M317 of which L-M349 is a subgroup.

bmoney
11-11-2019, 01:41 AM
A South Indian on FTDNA just did a SNP test and he's the first person I've seen from South Asia who is M27+ and L1320-. Probably not significant to you guys but I thought it was still worth mentioning, perhaps?

His subclade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y133442*

All other Y13342+ people on FTDNA's L project except for him were also West Asian, however the first Y37 STR's didn't seem to differ that much from the others. He has 111 STR's but 37 is the lowest common denominator, all Y13342+ samples on the project have at least 37 STR's.

nice, is he Hyderabadi or Syro-Malabar in ethnicity?

aaronbee2010
11-17-2019, 10:47 PM
nice, is he Hyderabadi or Syro-Malabar in ethnicity?

Not a single clue lmao

I can PM you his name and you can try and guess for yourself lol

misnomer
01-27-2020, 02:47 PM
Haplogroup L, L1, L1a, L1b etc. they are not South Asian. Biggest diversities of haplogroup L in Iraq, West Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and South Caucasus. Origin of L was near the Zagros, Mesopotamia, Levant or South Caucasus I guess. Oldest known haplogroup L samples are from Armenia and they don't have South Asian admixtures. Their autosomal genetics are mostly Caucasian+East Mediterranean+European, because L was carrier of Caucasian Hunter Gatherer type component (like J1 and J2) or East Mediterranean-Anatolian Farmer type component (like G2a).
L-M27 (L1a1) has TMRCA about ~4500 years in Indian subcontinent https://yfull.com/tree/L-M27/
while one of the 6000 years old ancient Armenian L samples belongs to L-M27. This case shows us that L-M27 is older in Caucasus than South Asia.

The bolded part (emphasis mine) is incorrect. Areni shows clear admixture from iran farmer like ancestry, geoksyur_en & sarazm_en show good fits in qpAdm. Noone knows if NW india/pak/afghan area had onge like admixture by 4500bce, possible that there was none.

Also, areni samples are not L but L1a1 ie L1-M27, the diversity of which is highest in NW india/pak/afg & South asia. So without any ancient samples from the region of South Asia prior to 4000bce, best not to make blanket statements which betray your bias. Shahr-i-sokhta has 1 sample which is L1a from around 2900bce, obviously it has nothing to do with Areni armenia as there is no EEHG (karelia_HG, present in Areni ArmeniaC samples) required for SiS.

So the hypothesis that L1a/L1a1 is not from South central asia is definitely NOT a settled matter.

qpAdm for Armenia_C
left pops:
Armenia_C
Steppe_Eneolithic - 25.9% +- 2.2%
Anatolia_N - 47.6% +-1.4%
Geoksyur_EN - 26.4% +- 2.3%
chisq: 20.39 tailprob: 0.11826 pass

result file (https://pastebin.com/tfncFGYk)

CHG was a part of the right pops, the model still passed.

Arlus
04-03-2020, 12:55 PM
My Yseq results so far-
L-1307- G+
Y6288- G-
Z5919- C-

So my subclade isn't a part of any currently known braches?

tipirneni
04-03-2020, 02:25 PM
My Yseq results so far-
L-1307- G+
Y6288- G-
Z5919- C-

So my subclade isn't a part of any currently known braches?

There is a Telugu sample (ITU), Sikh Punjab and an Irula sample on L-1307 in yfull

aaronbee2010
04-03-2020, 02:45 PM
My Yseq results so far-
L-1307- G+
Y6288- G-
Z5919- C-

So my subclade isn't a part of any currently known braches?

YFull has a more developed tree than YSEQ, so there are other branches you may still come under. Here are two branches of L-L1307 (L-M357) that are Y6288- and Z5919- that have South Asian samples:

L-M2385 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M2385): One Irula sample (L-M2385*), one Sikh Punjabi sample (L-Y33989) and one Hindu sample (L-Y33989). L-Y33989 is the subclade directly below L-M2385.

L-BY198125 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-BY198125): One Telugu sample.

In reality, subclades are usually composed of more than one SNP. While unlikely, it is possible that you may be negative for some SNPs in a subclade and positive for some SNPs in that same subclade, so if you really wanted to concretely find out where you truly come under, the best way to know for sure is a sequence test, but these are expensive. If sequencing is not an option for you, then the cheapest option is to test for individual SNPs with YSEQ. To give you an idea of where to start, you could test for M2385. If M2385-, test for BY198125. If M2385+, test for Y33989. Once you receive the result either for BY198125 or Y33989, you could call it a day.

If these SNPs are not present on YSEQ store, you can add them for $1 or test for a SNP in the same subclade.

Arlus
04-03-2020, 02:50 PM
YFull has a more developed tree than YSEQ, so there are other branches you may still come under. Here are two branches of L-L1307 (L-M357) that are Y6288- and Z5919- that have South Asian samples:

L-M2385 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M2385): One Irula sample (L-M2385*), one Sikh Punjabi sample (L-Y33989) and one Hindu sample (L-Y33989). L-Y33989 is the subclade directly below L-M2385.

L-BY198125 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-BY198125): One Telugu sample.

In reality, subclades are usually composed of more than one SNP. While unlikely, it is possible that you may be negative for some SNPs in a subclade and positive for some SNPs in that same subclade, so if you really wanted to concretely find out where you truly come under, the best way to know for sure is a sequence test, but these are expensive. If sequencing is not an option for you, then the cheapest option is to test for individual SNPs with YSEQ. To give you an idea of where to start, you could test for M2385. If M2385-, test for BY198125. If M2385+, test for Y33989. Once you receive the result either for BY198125 or Y33989, you could call it a day.

If these SNPs are not present on YSEQ store, you can add them for $1 or test for a SNP in the same subclade.

Thanks man I will try that. Out of all the SNPs they tested (it was a long list) , I am positive only for L1307

Arlus
04-03-2020, 07:15 PM
YFull has a more developed tree than YSEQ, so there are other branches you may still come under. Here are two branches of L-L1307 (L-M357) that are Y6288- and Z5919- that have South Asian samples:

L-M2385 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M2385): One Irula sample (L-M2385*), one Sikh Punjabi sample (L-Y33989) and one Hindu sample (L-Y33989). L-Y33989 is the subclade directly below L-M2385.

L-BY198125 (Link: https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-BY198125): One Telugu sample.

In reality, subclades are usually composed of more than one SNP. While unlikely, it is possible that you may be negative for some SNPs in a subclade and positive for some SNPs in that same subclade, so if you really wanted to concretely find out where you truly come under, the best way to know for sure is a sequence test, but these are expensive. If sequencing is not an option for you, then the cheapest option is to test for individual SNPs with YSEQ. To give you an idea of where to start, you could test for M2385. If M2385-, test for BY198125. If M2385+, test for Y33989. Once you receive the result either for BY198125 or Y33989, you could call it a day.

If these SNPs are not present on YSEQ store, you can add them for $1 or test for a SNP in the same subclade.

Alright, they have updated the panel and the tree with several new branches. I hope I get a subclade this time.

aaronbee2010
04-04-2020, 03:10 PM
Alright, they have updated the panel and the tree with several new branches. I hope I get a subclade this time.

Are they going to run your sample with the new panel for free or do you have to pay again?

Arlus
04-05-2020, 10:52 AM
Are they going to run your sample with the new panel for free or do you have to pay again?

It's for free I think. They will check me for the remaining branches you mentioned.

Arlus
04-17-2020, 04:44 PM
I came out negative for all other branches as well-
BY199399- C-
M2398- T-
M2667- T-
Y44848- G-
So I do belong to a so far unknown subclade.
Maybe I should go for Y sequencing> Yfull route in (far) future.

Sapporo
07-27-2020, 01:11 PM
I just got my basic FGC results (.vcf file) in for my L1a2. I'm coming under L-Y33989 per a friend of mine running my YSNP data. Still waiting on the BAM file to confirm though. Apparently, I share this clade with a Sikh Punjabi and Hindu on Yfull. Living DNA previously assigned me to L-Z5921, which for now seems like they missed the mark.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-Y33989/

parasar
07-27-2020, 03:55 PM
I just got my basic FGC results (.vcf file) in for my L1a2. I'm coming under L-Y33989 per a friend of mine running my YSNP data. Still waiting on the BAM file to confirm though. Apparently, I share this clade with a Sikh Punjabi and Hindu on Yfull. Living DNA previously assigned me to L-Z5921, which for now seems like they missed the mark.

How did Living DNA make that assignment?

Sapporo
07-27-2020, 04:26 PM
How did Living DNA make that assignment?

I'm not to be sure to be honest. If you see my Living DNA thread, I posted my Y-DNA chart from their site there.

Also, a friend ran the autosomal for the Punjabi Sikh that is positive for L-Y33989 on Y-full like me and their results/oracles suggest they're Jatt Sikh. Still waiting on the run for the Hindu sample who is L-Y33989. Curious if they're a Haryana/West UP Jatt, a Hindu Punjabi or perhaps neither?

Sapporo
09-19-2020, 12:09 AM
As an update, a friend of mine helped me get on to y-full and confirmed that I am positive for 14/17 Y33989 SNPs per my BAM file from FGC.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/L-M2398/


Was just browsing papers regarding L-M357/L1a2:


Global distribution of NRY-HG-L1a2(M357) To learn about the origin and dispersal of the NRY-HGL1a2(M357) clade, we performed a global analysis of the samples from the Genographic study along with those from the literature (Table 1). The population wise L1a2(M357) frequency estimates revealed that this clade was present in only 63 of the total 180 populations (251 of 3327 samples) studied in the Genographic study, and these were distributed irrespective of caste/tribe divide, or language family, and there was no definite correlation to any of the proxies considered (Supplementary Table 3). Nonetheless, there were regional concentrations of this clade (Figure 2).

In the spatial distribution frequency map of NRY-HGL1a2 (M357), we identified two areas of concentration in India: one in Jammu, Punjab, and northern Pakistan/Afghanistan regions; and another in southern India, comprising Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Karnataka (Figure 2). While the first one showed appreciable population specific expansion, the latter one revealed a scanty and patchy picture, with one or two samples in most populations (Figure 2; Table 1). The high frequency in the first one, Jammu (28.96%), was influenced by the higher frequencies in Buddhist Brokpa (69%), Islamic Brokpa (38%), Balti (33%) and Dardi Muslims (24%) (Table 1). Similar population specific expansions were also observed in the Chaudry of Himachal (40%), Jatt Sikh of Punjab (35%), Jatts of Rajasthan (28%) and Kalash and Burusho (41% and 30%) of Pakistan (Table 1; Supplementary Table 3). Interestingly, among Brahmin populations, there were two groups: one comprising Dogra Brahmin of Jammu, Saraswath Brahmin of Rajasthan and Havyaka Brahmin of Karnataka, possessing appreciable L1a2–M357 (13–17%); while the other was composed of eight Brahmin populations with low frequencies (4–8%) (Supplementary Table 3). Nonetheless, another 16 Brahmin populations (56%), (not listed here) did not possess this L1a2(M357) clade. Similarly, 42 other castes (61%) and 65 tribes (74%) did not possess this clade either.


Origin and identity of the Brokpa of Dah-Hanu, Himalayas – an NRY-HG L1a2 (M357) legacy

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338076600_Origin_and_identity_of_the_Brokpa_of_Dah-Hanu_Himalayas_-_an_NRY-HG_L1a2_M357_legacy

Link to paper:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338076600_Origin_and_identity_of_the_Brokpa_of_Dah-Hanu_Himalayas_-_an_NRY-HG_L1a2_M357_legacy/download

L1a2 frequency map per Brokpa paper:

39675

ssamlal
10-10-2020, 02:41 PM
My maternal uncle's YSEQ results put him in YFull subclade L-Y4913. There are currently two (2) individuals in this subclade (descendants of a Crimean Greek and a Kuban Cossack). They are nearby geographically (Black Sea region). I'm in touch with the Crimean Greek.

We theorize (based on current info available) that subclade L-Y4913 (FTDNA L-BY164513) migrated to the Black Sea region directly from Punjab (India, Pakistan) about 5000 years ago, and it may have been one person, a common ancestor for the Crimean Greek and the Kuban Cossack.

My uncle's results:

40148

40150

YFull L-M2398 subclades:

40149

ssamlal
01-31-2021, 03:31 PM
Updates:

YFull started processing my maternal uncle's Dante Labs BAM file last week. He is currently assigned L-Y4913 (as expected). I compared his YReport with the other two people in this branch. SNPs at the L-Y4913 all match.

In the upstream branch L-M2519, my uncle is negative for a number of SNPs (see screenshots below). The same SNPs are missing (no calls) from the BAM files of the other two individuals in L-Y4913. We're curious as to what YFull will do with L-M2519 and downstream branches (given my uncle's results) .

Anyone here in another L-M2519 downstream branch willing to share your YReport results (for L-M2519 tested SNPs)?

42975

42976

vishankar
02-01-2021, 03:18 AM
My maternal uncle's YSEQ results put him in YFull subclade L-Y4913. There are currently two (2) individuals in this subclade (descendants of a Crimean Greek and a Kuban Cossack). They are nearby geographically (Black Sea region). I'm in touch with the Crimean Greek.

We theorize (based on current info available) that subclade L-Y4913 (FTDNA L-BY164513) migrated to the Black Sea region directly from Punjab (India, Pakistan) about 5000 years ago, and it may have been one person, a common ancestor for the Crimean Greek and the Kuban Cossack.

My uncle's results:

40148

40150

YFull L-M2398 subclades:

40149

hi..why is migration from the reverse not possible?...I mean from the black Sea to Punjab?

Sapporo
04-01-2021, 05:24 AM
I seem to have now split into a separate subclade under L-Y33989 => L-Y91197

I share it with the academic sample that fellow forum member aaronbee ran for me previously.

ThaYamamoto
04-09-2021, 12:13 AM
Not sure exactly where this is from, I found it on the forum somewhere though, Y groups for a bunch of Iranians, I think these were the ones in the Mt Leb paper .

44213


I can't tell how many exact individuals they count each time because of the way the manner they've tabulated it in but it seems they found L-M357 in [very low] frequencies in an Azeri, a Gilaki, Persians from Fars, Turkmens, Persians in Khorasan, Baluch, Armenians and Persians in Yazd. Really low frequencies and scanty distribution but its always cool to see - surprised they didn't find any in Hormuzgan though thought they might be some.

RasulSrg
04-18-2021, 12:32 PM
My maternal uncle's YSEQ results put him in YFull subclade L-Y4913. There are currently two (2) individuals in this subclade (descendants of a Crimean Greek and a Kuban Cossack). They are nearby geographically (Black Sea region). I'm in touch with the Crimean Greek.

We theorize (based on current info available) that subclade L-Y4913 (FTDNA L-BY164513) migrated to the Black Sea region directly from Punjab (India, Pakistan) about 5000 years ago, and it may have been one person, a common ancestor for the Crimean Greek and the Kuban Cossack.

My uncle's results:

40148

40150

YFull L-M2398 subclades:

40149
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindi_people