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Bulat
11-08-2017, 10:41 AM
DNA-genealogy of tatar surnames — 6. Vol. 2-nd. Saetgarievs, Yurmi clan and ancient Hungarians (Magyars)



These Magyars are nice and prominent people;
Their clothes are made of brocade, their weapons are of silver ...
(Abu-Said Abu-al-Khaya Zohak Gardisi)






A more detailed DNA test of the Y-chromosome of the Saetgarievs [1] indicated the belonging of his clan to the N-M2783 line. While the Baltic-Finnish snp Z17078 at the Saetgarievs in the minuse. The haplotype and snps of Saetgariev, in my opinion, point to the East-Finnish (Volga) origin and common roots of his clan with Bashkirian Yurmi and Hungarian tribe Ker.

Other researchers [2], according to the DNA test, think that the Saitgariev haplotype are the South Baltic origin, referring to the supposedly ancient migration of Balts to the Volga region.

There are no Tatar N-M2783+ among matches to Saetgariev. But have the Hungarians from the N-M2783+ of the Czech Republic much more related than Tatars from the same subclass, and the time of the life's common ancestor Saetgariev clan with the Hungarians about 1,200 years ago. Even if we assume that the Saitgarievs are directly related to the late migration of Finns from the Baltic to the Volga region, then the Balto-Finns in the Volga region were to take part in the ancient Hungarian confederation of tribes, because the M2783 line is present have among the Hungarians. Proceeding from the fact that the ancestors of the Finns moved to Europe from the Urals, it is more logical to assume that the line M2783 is connected initially with the eastern (Volga) Finns, and some of the descendants of this line reached the Baltic from the Volga and the Urals, and not vice versa.



http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2017-8/magyar_hungarians.jpg

Map 1. Lines N-L1034 + (Ugric cluster), N-M2783 + (Finnish cluster), R1a-Z280 + (Sarmatian-Ural cluster of Balto-Slavic origin) in the ethnogenesis of ancient Hungarians







Yurmi by origin is a Finnish clan [10a], and not Ugric tribe in the composition of the Magyars of the Urals. The eastern-Finnish origin of yurmi is indicated by ethnic parallels with the Danube Bulgarians - the clan Ermi [10b], and the anthroponym Yurmekey in the tribal structure of the Chuvash [11]. In the ethnogenesis of the Chuvashes, the Finnish tribes of the Volga region also took part. The ethnonym Yūrma [12] itself is associated with the resettlement of the Finns from the Urals and now occurs from the Urals to Finland, for example, the toponym of Jūrmala in the Baltic.


The version that the clan of the Saetgarievs is closely interrelated with the Bashkirian Yurmi relies in particular on such facts: a) that the tribal line of the Saetgarievs have name Teptar, and Teptar clan are part of the Bashkirian Yurmi; b) the territory of the settlement of the Yurmi clan also in the Tuymazinsky District of Bashkortostan [19], from where the ancestors of the Saetgarievs themselves. But in the Tuymazinsky district of Bashkortostan there live also Bashkirs-Eney [20], whose roots are also interconnected with the Hungarians of the Danube.


Look at this article in russian language (http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2017-8/Yurmi_Magyar_4_2017x17_8_[1_2]_4_BEHPS_2017_8_2.pdf)

Pannonius
11-11-2017, 10:50 PM
Have Hungarians or ancient Magyars been tested for N-P43?

Bulat
11-22-2017, 08:48 AM
Have Hungarians or ancient Magyars been tested for N-P43?

i don't know about ancient Hungarians with N-P43. But i know - the Modern Hungarians have N-P43 clade. N-P43 is a Samoedic origin clade.

gravetti
01-21-2018, 03:10 PM
Mitogenomic data indicate admixture components of Asian Hun and Srubnaya origin in the Hungarian Conquerors

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/01/19/250688.full.pdf

It has been widely accepted that the Finno-Ugric Hungarian language, originated from proto Uralic people, was brought into the Carpathian Basin by the Hungarian Conquerors. From the middle of the 19th century this view prevailed against the deep-rooted Hungarian Hun tradition, maintained in folk memory as well as in Hungarian and foreign written medieval sources, which claimed that Hungarians were kinsfolk of the Huns. In order to shed light on the genetic origin of the Conquerors we sequenced 102 mitogenomes from early Conqueror cemeteries and compared them to sequences of all available databases.


The possible genetic relation of modern Hungarians to Finno-Ugric groups was tested in several studies [6–8], however all these found Hungarians being genetically unrelated to Uralic people. One of the latest studies [9] reported that a Y-chromosome haplogroup (N-L1034) is shared between 4% of the Hungarian Seklers (Hungarian-speaking ethnic group living in Transylvania) and 15% of the closest language relatives the Mansis, though the same marker is also present in Central Asian Uzbeks and has been detected just in one Hungarian [10]. These results indicated that Uralic genetic links hardly exist in modern Hungarians.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/01/19/250688

Schanulleke
09-02-2018, 07:00 AM
Another myth debunked. Thank you for sharing.

Kristiina
09-03-2018, 08:15 AM
In genetic terms, the structure of the Ugric root population and the Uralic root population are still open questions. In general, there is not much interest in this matter as we still have zero ancient DNA from the Uralic area and we have no autosomal analysis of any relevant ancient population. At the moment, we cannot compare the modern Hungarians with any ancient Ugric speaking population.

Y DNA is not enough. It is certainly wrong to think that the Ugric root population was 100% yDNA N. We have yDNA from the probably Ugric-speaking Sargat culture in Western Siberia, and it is an admixture of yDNA N 5/7 and R1a1 (2/7) (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321071660_Kinship_Analysis_of_Human_Remains_from_t he_Sargat_Mounds_Baraba_Forest-Steppe_Western_Siberia). However, the amount of N was surely much higher in Western Siberia than on the Central Asian steppe where Hungarians were allies of the Turks.

According to Wikipedia, the ethnonym Ungri comes from Oghur-Turkic On-Ogur (meaning "ten [tribes of the] Ogurs"), the collective name for the tribes which later joined the Bulgar tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars. The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance.

If we would like to find out the possible share of the Proto-Hungarian DNA in modern Hungarians, we should get a sample from the ancient Onogur Hungarians.

gravetti
09-04-2018, 09:08 AM
The Árpád (Arpad) dynasty is R1a-Z93.They belong to subgroup Z2123.

Article in Hungarian:

https://mttmuzeum.blog.hu/2018/08/29/az_arpad-haz_eredete_iii_bela_kiraly_csontjainak_tanusaga?u tm_medium=doboz&utm_campaign=bloghu_cimlap&utm_source=kult


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

Bulat
09-27-2018, 12:35 AM
The Árpád (Arpad) dynasty is R1a-Z93.They belong to subgroup Z2123.

Article in Hungarian:

https://mttmuzeum.blog.hu/2018/08/29/az_arpad-haz_eredete_iii_bela_kiraly_csontjainak_tanusaga?u tm_medium=doboz&utm_campaign=bloghu_cimlap&utm_source=kult


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-018-0609-7

Oh, Z2123!

Arpad from Aorsen-Sarmatian origin. Thanks

eastara
09-27-2018, 03:47 AM
Wasn't there a study about R1a among Hungarians, which claimed Z93 is almost non existent among them. It is found occasionally among Hungarian Seklers and Gypsies only. R1a among modern Hungarian is overwhelmingly from Slavic origin.

oz
09-30-2018, 10:47 AM
Three possibilities...

1.As these Magyars were migrating they gradually absorbed a lot of Eastern European Dna into their population on the way, but their language persisted.
2.They originally had relatively the same genetic make up as they do today prior to the migration from a pretty far away place, even though they didn't speak a Slavic or even an IE language.
3.At some point the language was imposed by the "elites" for some sort of cultural, religious and political reasons, and those elites couldn't have been the nomad, pagan war gangs from the 9th century invading and raiding Europe. I don't see how they would cause the language shift on a much bigger population or why they would even care for that matter, those invading war gangs which didn't leave much of a genetic trace could only melt into the population or eventually get exterminated by their enemies.

Michał
09-30-2018, 11:43 AM
Three possibilities...

1.As these Magyars were migrating they gradually absorbed a lot of Eastern European Dna into their population on the way, but their language persisted.
2.They originally had relatively the same genetic make up as they do today prior to the migration from a pretty far away place, even though they didn't speak a Slavic or even an IE language.
3.At some point the language was imposed by the "elites" for some sort of cultural, religious and political reasons, and those elites couldn't have been the nomad, pagan war gangs from the 9th century invading and raiding Europe. I don't see how they would cause the language shift on a much bigger population or why they would even care for that matter, those invading war gangs which didn't leave much of a genetic trace could only melt into the population or eventually get exterminated by their enemies.
I guess it was a combination of 1 and 3, with scenario no 1 playing a more important role than previously suspected.

oz
09-30-2018, 12:39 PM
I guess it was a combination of 1 and 3, with scenario no 1 playing a more important role than previously suspected.

I would agree. And I think this explanation similarly applies to the Anatolian Turks.

Geborgenheit
09-30-2018, 01:40 PM
R1a among modern Hungarian is overwhelmingly from Slavic origin.

You mean pre-Slavic, right ?

eastara
10-01-2018, 01:29 AM
You mean pre-Slavic, right ?

Why go so far back, the Hungarisation of Slovaks and other Slavic minorities in 18-19c. is a well known fact. Some of the leaders of the Hungarian nationalist movement in 19 c. were in fact with Slovak origin. There was some opposition to the Gemanisation of AustroHungary and who had the most glorious past - the Magyars, of course. Hungarian language was introduced at schools and in the mixed regions Slavs preferred to identify as Hungarians.

fakirbakir
10-02-2018, 07:58 AM
Why go so far back, the Hungarisation of Slovaks and other Slavic minorities in 18-19c. is a well known fact. Some of the leaders of the Hungarian nationalist movement in 19 c. were in fact with Slovak origin. There was some opposition to the Gemanisation of AustroHungary and who had the most glorious past - the Magyars, of course. Hungarian language was introduced at schools and in the mixed regions Slavs preferred to identify as Hungarians.

The exaggeration of Magyarization is futile. The nobles of Slovak ethnicity got Magyarized (slowly), but the rural masses kept their identity.

Take a look at this (Wiki, Hungarians):

"A 2018 study states that mtDNA sub-clades like H5a1m, T2a1c, and W3a1d1, which were found in recent Hungarian samples, imply that the Hungarians, Estonians and Finns share pan-European relationships. The molecular dating of the identified mtDNA sub-clades shows that their age exceeds the estimated time of the Hungarian-Slavic contact period in the Carpathian Basin. The results reflect that Slavs, Finn-Ugrians and other European peoples shared a common genetic substratum on the steppes of Eastern Europe."

From the paper:

"we cannot confirm the Hungarian-Slavic contacts using molecular dating of the identified mtDNA sub-clades, since their age exceeds the estimated time of the contact period and varies from 1.3 kya (for K1c1j) to 5.2 kya (for T2b25a1) "

gravetti
10-03-2018, 03:48 PM
Three possibilities...

1.As these Magyars were migrating they gradually absorbed a lot of Eastern European Dna into their population on the way, but their language persisted.
2.They originally had relatively the same genetic make up as they do today prior to the migration from a pretty far away place, even though they didn't speak a Slavic or even an IE language.
3.At some point the language was imposed by the "elites" for some sort of cultural, religious and political reasons, and those elites couldn't have been the nomad, pagan war gangs from the 9th century invading and raiding Europe. I don't see how they would cause the language shift on a much bigger population or why they would even care for that matter, those invading war gangs which didn't leave much of a genetic trace could only melt into the population or eventually get exterminated by their enemies.

http://acta.bibl.u-szeged.hu/16611/1/altaica_039_243-253.pdf

http://www.academia.edu/1899093/The_new_archaeological_research_designed_for_early _Hungarian_history

The
archaeological record seems to confirm earlier suggestions that Levedia was not an independent settlement territory of the ancient Hungarians, but was part of the probably easterly areas of Etelköz

The chronology of the finds from the southern Urals and the Dnieper region suggests a relatively rapid migration of the ancient Hungarians no earlier than the beginning of the 9th century, as was earlier suggested by Soviet-Russian and Ukrainian research.

"...relatively rapid migration..." !!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyar_tribes

Around 830 AD,[8][9] when Álmos was about 10 years old, the seven related tribes (Jenő, Kér, Keszi, Kürt-Gyarmat, Megyer (hu), Nyék and Tarján)[10] formed a confederation[8] in Etelköz,[9] called "Hétmagyar" ("Seven Magyars"). Their leaders, the Seven chieftains of the Magyars, besides Álmos, included Előd, Ond, Kond, Tas, Huba and Töhötöm, who took a blood oath, swearing eternal loyalty to Álmos.[11] Presumably, the Magyar tribes consisted of 108 clans.[12]

Alain
10-05-2018, 06:41 PM
It is clear that Turkey Turks are genetically closer to the Mediterranean population Despite their Ur-Altai language as well as today's Hungarians more to the Central European population is still some regions in Hungary or Turkey have a signal from the steppe. For example, in Turkey where the Caravansary is (Selchjuk time), the Turkish population has a Central Asian component. Even with the present day Hungarians, which in the meantime have grown up mainly in Slavs and partly also in Germanic and pre - Slavic populations, there are regions with an Eastern steppe component (Ural region)

Feiichy
10-05-2018, 06:55 PM
Here is how my boyfriend is modeled on nMonte:

Austria_Tyrol 35.30
Romania_SW 30.75
Lithuanian 20.45
North_Dagestan 5.85
Finnish_East 4.05
Karelian_Tver 2.15
GR_Istanbul 0.95
GR_Cyclades 0.25
Sweden 0.10
GR_Thrace 0.05
IT_Tuscany 0.05

It is not like modern Hungarians have zero recent steppe component. His Finnish and Dagestan admixture certanly came with migrating Magyar tribes, because it is not present in other Central Europeans.

Alain
10-05-2018, 07:25 PM
My modern nMonte

PL_Wielkopolska 58.43
Dutch South 10.20
SP_La Roja 8.65 I think this is Celtic componete
PL_Upper Silesian 5.95. Slavic-Germanic Mix
Chuvash Volga-Bulgars 4.20 Steppe componete
Romania Central 3.95
FR_Bretagne 2.40
Finish_SW 1.95 Uralic

Alain
10-05-2018, 07:28 PM
Here is how my boyfriend is modeled on nMonte:

Austria_Tyrol 35.30
Romania_SW 30.75
Lithuanian 20.45
North_Dagestan 5.85
Finnish_East 4.05
Karelian_Tver 2.15
GR_Istanbul 0.95
GR_Cyclades 0.25
Sweden 0.10
GR_Thrace 0.05
IT_Tuscany 0.05

It is not like modern Hungarians have zero recent steppe component. His Finnish and Dagestan admixture certanly came with migrating Magyar tribes, because it is not present in other Central Europeans.

North Dagestan can also be more of a Neolithic Caucasian component

Feiichy
10-05-2018, 07:57 PM
North Dagestan can also be more of a Neolithic Caucasian component

I don't think so. This is not model of ancient components, but based on modern ethnic groups. And no southern European score anything like that. Also my boyfriend is North Caucasian shifted on gedmatch.

Alain
10-05-2018, 08:08 PM
I don't think so. This is not model of ancient components, but based on modern ethnic groups. And no southern European score anything like that. Also my boyfriend is North Caucasian shifted on gedmatch.
For example, in FTDNA (modern), I point 14% Southeastern Europe, but that does not mean that I have to do directly with Greeks, for example, but I have Romanian ancestors and my grandmother's motherly side comes from Galicia (south Carpthian region), for example, Romania genetic similarity to Greeks and Bulgarians but ask even one of the more clueless has for example Onur dincer

oz
10-06-2018, 02:09 AM
I get pretty high Caucasus on gedmatch too including k36. I haven't done this nmonte thing I don't even know what it is, can you do this without sending anyone your raw dna data?

Ok I read through some threads.
It's not simple and quick like gedmatch and geneplaza, meh.

Alain
10-06-2018, 06:01 PM
The ancient Hungarians originated from the Ural region in today’s central Russia and migrated across the Eastern European steppe, according to historical sources. The Hungarians conquered the Carpathian Basin 895–907 AD, and admixed with the indigenous communities. Here we present mitochondrial DNA results from three datasets: one from the Avar period (7th–9th centuries) of the Carpathian Basin (n = 31); one from the Hungarian conquest-period (n = 76); and a completion of the published 10th–12th century Hungarian-Slavic contact zone dataset by four samples. We compare these mitochondrial DNA hypervariable segment sequences and haplogroup results with published ancient and modern Eurasian data. Whereas the analyzed Avars represents a certain group of the Avar society that shows East and South European genetic characteristics, the Hungarian conquerors’ maternal gene pool is a mixture of West Eurasian and Central and North Eurasian elements. Comprehensively analyzing the results, both the linguistically recorded Finno-Ugric roots and historically documented Turkic and Central Asian influxes had possible genetic imprints in the conquerors’ genetic composition. Our data allows a complex series of historic and population genetic events before the formation of the medieval population of the Carpathian Basin, and the maternal genetic continuity between 10th–12th century and modern Hungarians.

Alain
10-07-2018, 07:42 AM
Why go so far back, the Hungarisation of Slovaks and other Slavic minorities in 18-19c. is a well known fact. Some of the leaders of the Hungarian nationalist movement in 19 c. were in fact with Slovak origin. There was some opposition to the Gemanisation of AustroHungary and who had the most glorious past - the Magyars, of course. Hungarian language was introduced at schools and in the mixed regions Slavs preferred to identify as Hungarians.

Magyarization - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/.../ ...
Magyarization after "Magyar"—the autonym of Hungarians—was an assimilation or acculturation process by which non-Hungarian nationals came to ...
‎Historical context of the ... - ‎Magyarization in the ... - ‎Jews

I found this very interesting

Dorkymon
10-08-2018, 07:37 PM
Here is how my boyfriend is modeled on nMonte:

Romania_SW 30.75


Normally, I wouldn't say that, but since I know the person you are referring to, he's probably fuming :biggrin1:

So long for the purity of the Magyar blood that he's been promoting for years on apricity.

Dorkymon
10-08-2018, 08:49 PM
Here is how my boyfriend is modeled on nMonte:

Austria_Tyrol 35.30
Romania_SW 30.75
Lithuanian 20.45
North_Dagestan 5.85
Finnish_East 4.05
Karelian_Tver 2.15
GR_Istanbul 0.95
GR_Cyclades 0.25
Sweden 0.10
GR_Thrace 0.05
IT_Tuscany 0.05

It is not like modern Hungarians have zero recent steppe component. His Finnish and Dagestan admixture certanly came with migrating Magyar tribes, because it is not present in other Central Europeans.

On a serious note, I'd suggest picking populations from nearby regions for a modern test, instead of going with the full set.
My results are even wilder than his.

gravetti
10-19-2018, 07:02 PM
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0205920

"Foundation of the Hungarian state is connected to the conquering Hungarians, which arrived from the Pontic steppes and occupied the Carpathian Basin at 895–905 AD as a confederation of seven tribes under the leadership of prince Árpád. Modern Hungarians are generally identified as successors of the conquering Hungarians (hence shortened as Conquerors). Until the middle of the 19th century it was generally accepted that Hungarians were kinsfolk of the Huns and Scythians, besides Árpád was a direct descendant of the great Hun leader Attila. Hun-Hungarian affinity was declared in Hungarian and foreign written sources and has been maintained in Hungarian folk memory [1–3]. In the second half of the 19th century the Hungarian language was reclassified as belonging to the Uralic branch of the Finno-Ugric language family [4]."

gravetti
10-19-2018, 07:03 PM
double post,please delete

oz
10-19-2018, 10:22 PM
It's quite puzzling they're not finding any significant genetic overlap with Finno-Ugric populations. How can then the conqueror and the modern Hungarians speak a Finno-Ugric language? Something just doesn't add up. Unless the Avars were Finno-Ugric speaking and their language persisted into modern Hungarian? There's no evidence of that plus it's generally hypothesized that they were also some type of Turkic speakers.

And how come out of 102 samples from 8 different cemeteries only 4 Y hgs were sequenced?

gravetti
11-04-2018, 06:44 PM
It's quite puzzling they're not finding any significant genetic overlap with Finno-Ugric populations. How can then the conqueror and the modern Hungarians speak a Finno-Ugric language? Something just doesn't add up. Unless the Avars were Finno-Ugric speaking and their language persisted into modern Hungarian? There's no evidence of that plus it's generally hypothesized that they were also some type of Turkic speakers.

And how come out of 102 samples from 8 different cemeteries only 4 Y hgs were sequenced?

At the end of the ninth century a new development took place in the Carpathian Basin: the people that later became known as the Magyars arrived. Vámbéry estimates the numbers of the new arrivals as being “a few thousand” [néhány ezer], and he has no doubt that these Turkish-Tatar warriors melted into the mass of local peoples. In doing so, Vámbéry explains, they exchanged their “pure Turkish language” for the “mixed language” of their Pannonian “relatives.” Though the new arrivals were few, their “militaristic spirit”, characteristic of their not yet adulterated nomadic lifestyle, inspired the Carpathian Basin’s post-Avar population to rise to remarkable deeds again as exemplified by their military expeditions far and wide in Europe. Furthermore, according to Vámbéry, the union of these two peoples had long-term benefits for the newly arrived conquerors as well.

https://ahea.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/ahea/article/viewFile/110/297

gravetti
12-18-2018, 10:49 AM
http://real.mtak.hu/88674/1/Bernert_AK2018.pdf

Bernert Zs., Fehér T., Varga D., Székely G., Németh E.: Testimony from the Bones of Hungarian King Béla III – Origins of the Árpád Dynasty. The role of applications based on machine learning is continuously growing in the industry, health sector/bioinformatics and scientific research. American researchers published a bit more than 10 years ago the first machine learning algorithms, which were able to safely predict Y-SNP based haplogroups from Y-STR data.
The goal of the present study was to predict with machine learning algorithms the SNP-based subgroup of three ancient DNA samples (King Béla III and two Khazar samples) belonging to Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, in order to predict their geographic origin and mutual genetic relatedness more accurately. This is the first study applying machine learning algorithms for researching Hungarian prehistory.
Based on the Y-STR haplotype of King Béla III, we estimated with the machine learning algorithm in the first step that he belonged to the R1a-Z93 subgroup that is most common among Indo-Iranic and Turkic speaking peoples. The second step predicted that King Béla III belonged to the Z2123 subgroup of R1a-Z93. The Phylogenetic analysis showed King Béla III most likely belonged to the relatively rare YP451+ YP449- subgroup of Z2123, which practically only appears in the North Caucasus, especially among Karachays and Balkars.
Based on our results, we could hypothetically conclude that the Árpád Dynasty has common origin with one ethnic component of the Karachay people.
In our study we proved that it is possible to increase the accuracy of Y-DNA haplogroup prediction of historical aDNA samples with mathematical methods using contemporary Y-STR haplotypes. With the help of this method, larger historical aDNA studies could save a lot of research funds and DNA carrying out tailored deep SNP-testing of samples instead of using general SNaPshots.
Keywords: Physical anthropology; Archaeogenetics; Machine learning; Y-SNP prediction; Y-STR; Gradient boosting; Árpád Dynasty; King Béla III; Hungarian ethnogenesis.

hans84
02-02-2019, 03:17 PM
Mitogenomic data indicate admixture components of Asian Hun and Srubnaya origin in the Hungarian Conquerors

It has been widely accepted that the Finno-Ugric Hungarian language, originated from proto Uralic people, was brought into the Carpathian Basin by the Hungarian Conquerors (...)

The term "Finno-Ugric" in linguistics afaik originated/took off in the 18th and 19th centuries and to my own knowledge there was never a Finno-Ugric Urvolk as such nor a definite Finno-Ugric origin language in the strict sense of the term.

Sumerian was just as agglutinative as Hungarian, and Sumerian words and word formations are strikingly similar to Hungarian in many respects - The Sumerian language has been the leading language of the Middle East for millennia of course. The development of an agglutinating language with the consistent vocabulary derived from Hungarian is a relatively long process, therefore it can overall be assumed that Hungarian is a very ancient language.

A while ago i found an interesting post on this too, can't remember where it was from but here are its contents:


Some historians believe that Hungarians (Savard Hungarians) at one point in time lived around the Caucasus region and were joined by a few caucasian tribes that eventually travelled with them to Hungary. It is also mentioned that Hungarians lived nearby Iranian peoples and were influenced by Iranian tribes and some very old Iranian words are still evident in the Hungarian language.

Although the Finnish language is also agglutinating and stable, it shows too many differences to Hungarian. The number of consonants is noticeably low in Finnish, in Hungarian there are about 14 consonants more than in Finnish. On the other hand, Finnish is relatively rich in vowels, the number of vowels is roughly equal to the Hungarian. The vocabulary of the two languages ​​is very different aswell - There are hardly similar words with the same meaning abundantly found. Finnish and Estonian are roughly similar to High German and Dutch, whereas Hungarian is very different from both. There are a lot of similar words with Turkish from the general life, agriculture, biology, u. a. (eg, teve, balta, bika, sok, kicsi, etc.) so in that respect there definitely seems to be a strong connection, perhaps derived from the bulgar migrations and the contacts between the Magyars and turkic Chuvash tribes.

It must be considered that just as agglutinating as Hungarian are Hunnish (very close to Hungarian in the vocabulary) Basque, the Turkic languages, Persian and the ancient Egyptian language. There are some striking similarities in logic with the Japanese and the Manchurian language, probably due to Ainu (Hunnic) mediation too.

There is undoubtedly a connection to the Finnish and Estonian languages, but the connections are much broader in nature than some of those die-hard pan-turanist/"finno-ugric" ideologues like to pretend.

Modern-day DNA studies have also shown that austrians and hungarians are basically cousins genetically speaking. Of course there are still examples that differ from this but the overall evidence cannot be denied imo.

Huck Finn
02-02-2019, 04:34 PM
The term "Finno-Ugric" in linguistics afaik originated/took off in the 18th and 19th centuries and to my own knowledge there was never a Finno-Ugric Urvolk as such nor a definite Finno-Ugric origin language in the strict sense of the term.
How about reading some related academic research? Of course there was a Uralic "Urvolk" and they indeed spoke Proto Uralic, apparently somewhere next to Volga-Kama area. That being said, most of Hungarian genes were apparently not inherited from those people. See, genes don't dictate languages, even if it sounds complicated to you.

hans84
02-03-2019, 12:22 AM
How about reading some related academic research? Of course there was a Uralic "Urvolk" and they indeed spoke Proto Uralic, apparently somewhere next to Volga-Kama area. See, genes don't dictate languages, even if it sounds complicated to you.

No need to employ ad hominem/get insulting there just because you disagree with some of the contents of my post.


That being said, most of Hungarian genes were apparently not inherited from those people.

Yes, that is what i was saying in my post if you had cared to read it fully instead of getting emotional right off the bat. Hence, the entire pan-turanist/turanist (which includes a finno-ugric component) ideology falls apart at the seams when you consider these findings which i mentioned.

There is ample evidence that hungarians are genetically not really related in the way it's being claimed by some to "finno-ugrics" either so not sure what you're trying to get at anyways.

I'm not denying you your national heritage or anything, i just find it ludicrous to suggest that finns and hungarians derived from the exact same people/shared the exact same origins (genetic, geographic or otherwise) just becaue of some vague lingual links. Again, reading the post you responded to fully would probably clear up any remaining confusion on your part in this regard.

hans84
02-03-2019, 12:28 AM
Another observation [of this study] is that “Austria and Germany, despite both being German speaking, have quite different Y-DNA groups. However, Austria and Hungary look remarkably similar.”

It was this reference to the Austrian genetic connection that excited Hungarians. It seems that the Austrians are more than “in-laws” (sógorok), as they are called in Hungary, which of course is a reference to the long-standing constitutional relationship that existed between Austria and Hungary. They are in fact brothers and most likely sisters as far as their DNA makeup is concerned.

http://hungarianspectrum.org/2015/05/03/genetic-map-of-europe-and-the-tisza-people-of-the-hungarian-great-plain/


(...) "It is most likely that by the end of the thirteenth century the Asian markers pretty well disappeared from the population mix."

https://hungarianspectrum.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/genetic-markers-in-the-hungarian-population-then-and-now/

https://i0.wp.com/hungarianspectrum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/genterkep.jpg?w=722

Huck Finn
02-03-2019, 08:22 AM
No need to employ ad hominem/get insulting there just because you disagree with some of the contents of my post.

Not just some, most of that what you write does not make a lot of sense. Or actually any sense, now that I reread some of that stuff.

gravetti
04-01-2019, 10:48 AM
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00438-019-01555-x
According to genetic studies, the Hungarian Y-chromosomal gene pool significantly differs from other Uralic-speaking populations. Hungarians possess a significant frequency of haplogroup R1a-Z280 and a low frequency of haplogroup N-Tat, which is common among other Uralic-speaking populations. Based on this evidence, we further worked to define the links between the linguistically related Hungarian, Mansi and Bashkirian Mari populations.

gravetti
04-02-2019, 09:45 AM
In this chapter, I will argue however that this theory is fundamentally mistaken. There is nothing like a Uralic or Finno-Ugric language family. This theory is an artifact of misguided scientific research and has been pursued in the last 150 years for political reasons mainly. It is better to set aside this theory and let the Hungarian chronicles, culture and language guide the research into the origin of the Hungarians and their language. The empirical data point not into the direction of northern Europe or Asia but rather into the direction of Central Asia for searching the ancestral homeland of the Hungarians.

http://www.protobulgarians.com/English%20translations/Origin%20of%20hungarians.htm

gravetti
04-05-2019, 12:06 PM
Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

Shishman
04-05-2019, 01:36 PM
Genetic insights into the social organisation of the Avar period elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin
Q1b-M346 more precisely Q-BZ427 https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ427/
Geographic distribution: Hungary (3 person) and Kazakhstan (1 person, naiman tribe)

eastara
04-05-2019, 11:43 PM
Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

I wonder why officially the name Magyars is not mentioned any more, but using "Hungarians from the conquering period".

oz
04-06-2019, 03:10 AM
So that paper is suggesting that the Avars were more eastern Siberian like than the Conquerors/Magyars. The original Avars might've been Tungusic or Mongolic speaking?
The Magyars on their PCA are closest to Volga/Ural populations like Bashkirs so there's definitely some Turkic connection there.
After the Bashkirs the conquerors plot closest to modern Hungarians, Bosnians, Slovakians and Polish. Interestingly they're a little closer to BIH than to Croats and Serbs on that plot.
It also says that the most prestigious graves in Karos2 and Karos3 cemeteries belonged to I2a1 and were most likely related.
Most of them have alleles for brown eyes and dark brown/black hair, including both of the I1 samples and both of them are not lactase persistent. And interesting that the I1 Avar is from the same cemetery as the East Asian N1. I don't know what those EU/EA admixture columns mean they're confusing, they show different percentages. And it's pretty odd that the PV/72 East Asian C2-Hg guy is 100% EU.

gravetti
04-06-2019, 02:11 PM
The ethnonym Ungri is the Latinized form of Byzantine Greek Oungroi (Οὔγγροι). According to an explanation, the Greek name was borrowed from Old Bulgarian ągrinŭ, which was in turn borrowed from Oghur-Turkic On-Ogur (meaning "ten [tribes of the] Ogurs"), the collective name for the tribes which later joined the Bulgar tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars. The Hungarians probably belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance and it is very possible that they became its ethnic majority.[10][11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Hungary

td120
04-06-2019, 10:11 PM
Bulgarian historiography does not use the exonym "hungarians" when describing the tribe(s) from the conquering period. They are called by their endonym "Magyars" (маджари) which is more accurate. Same applies when describing ethnic Hungarians in informal speech (they've been called -even today- маджари ,Magyars).
The official name of the state in Bulgarian is Унгария ("Ungariya" ; Hungary). And Western Balkan States use "Mađarska"...

gravetti
05-24-2019, 01:13 PM
Hungarians who live in Central Europe today are one of the westernmost Uralic speakers. Despite of the proposed Volga-Ural/West Siberian roots of the Hungarian language, the present-day Hungarian gene pool is highly similar to that of the surrounding Indo-European speaking populations. However, a limited portion of specific Y-chromosomal lineages from haplogroup N, sometimes associated with the spread of Uralic languages, link modern Hungarians with populations living close to the Ural Mountain range on the border of Europe and Asia. Here we investigate the paternal genetic connection between these spatially separated populations. We reconstruct the phylogeny of N3a4-Z1936 clade by using 33 high-coverage Y-chromosomal sequences and estimate the coalescent times of its sub-clades. We genotype close to 5000 samples from 46 Eurasian populations to show the presence of N3a4-B539 lineages among Hungarians and in the populations from Ural Mountain region, including Ob-Ugric-speakers from West Siberia who are geographically distant but linguistically closest to Hungarians. This sub-clade splits from its sister-branch N3a4-B535, frequent today among Northeast European Uralic speakers, 4000–5000 ya, which is in the time-frame of the proposed divergence of Ugric languages.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44272-6

gravetti
01-14-2020, 09:14 PM
Genetic analysis of male Hungarian Conquerors: European and Asian paternal lineages of the conquering Hungarian tribes

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0

Abstract

According to historical sources, ancient Hungarians were made up of seven allied tribes and the fragmented tribes that split off from the Khazars, and they arrived from the Eastern European steppes to conquer the Carpathian Basin at the end of the ninth century AD. Differentiating between the tribes is not possible based on archaeology or history, because the Hungarian Conqueror artifacts show uniformity in attire, weaponry, and warcraft. We used Y-STR and SNP analyses on male Hungarian Conqueror remains to determine the genetic source, composition of tribes, and kin of ancient Hungarians. The 19 male individuals paternally belong to 16 independent haplotypes and 7 haplogroups (C2, G2a, I2, J1, N3a, R1a, and R1b). The presence of the N3a haplogroup is interesting because it rarely appears among modern Hungarians (unlike in other Finno-Ugric-speaking peoples) but was found in 37.5% of the Hungarian Conquerors.

gravetti
07-07-2020, 04:39 PM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-0683-z

The remains belonging to Béla III (HU3B) and HU52 are derived for R-Z2125 (R1a1a1b2a2a). The R-Z2125 haplogroup is common in northeastern Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and southern Kazakhstan and to a lesser extent in the Volga Ural region, the Caucasus and Iran (Fig. 1) [35]. We could further derive the Árpád Dynasty lineage based on SNPs defining R-Y2632, R-Y20746, R-Y2633, and 16 SNPs associated with haplogroup R-SUR51 (Figs. 2 and 3, Table S5) [13, 14, 16, 36, 37].

RCO
07-07-2020, 08:55 PM
HU3G Northern aisle of church, stone lined grave - J1 - J-ZS7626
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS7640/