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kinman
11-12-2017, 05:04 PM
It seems to me that the most likely place of origin of haplogroup R1b is in the area of Tajikistan.
The Tajikistan/Krygyzstan area is central to all the interesting early remains of R, R1, and R2. From there they radiated in all directions.

R1b* is now found in the nearby area of southeastern Kazakhstan (and further west in Iran). And today's distribution of R1b-KH155 is centrally found in Tajikistan (plus Bhutan and Xinjiang to the east; and Turkey and Bahrain to the west).

It would not surprise me if the parent haplogroups K and P also originated in this area (Tajikistan or adjacent western China).

bmoney
11-13-2017, 12:27 AM
It seems to me that the most likely place of origin of haplogroup R1b is in the area of Tajikistan.
The Tajikistan/Krygyzstan area is central to all the interesting early remains of R, R1, and R2. From there they radiated in all directions.

R1b* is now found in the nearby area of southeastern Kazakhstan (and further west in Iran). And today's distribution of R1b-KH155 is centrally found in Tajikistan (plus Bhutan and Xinjiang to the east; and Turkey and Bahrain to the west).

It would not surprise me if the parent haplogroups K and P also originated in this area (Tajikistan or adjacent western China).

Why do you think K and P did not originate in SE Asia?

kinman
11-13-2017, 01:29 PM
The 2015 paper (by Karafet et al.) also said that an alternative possible scenario was haplogroup P originating outside of southeast Asia with extinction of most of the P* populations in mainland Asia. And it turns out that there is more P* in Asia than previously thought. It has even recently been discovered as far west as Croatia in Europe. Wow!!!


Why do you think K and P did not originate in SE Asia?

kinman
11-13-2017, 01:41 PM
This morning Jean Manco posted the following map on another thread. It makes a lot more sense than the Karafet 2015 proposal (haplogroup P originating in far southeast Asia and then backtracking to the Asian mainland and Europe).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19784&d=1510563609

Gravetto-Danubian
11-13-2017, 01:46 PM
I'm fairly sure there is no P* in Croatia, and the parental clade of PH155 is M335, which has been found in Europeans, including a fully sequenced individual.

kinman
11-13-2017, 01:58 PM
I don't have access to the following paper, but it reportedly shows P* being found on an island right off the coast of Croatia (Isle of Hvar):
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876/full

But an earlier paper reported the same thing:
https://www.nature.com/articles/5200992


I'm fairly sure there is no P* in Croatia, and the parental clade of PH155 is M335, which has been found in Europeans, including a fully sequenced Italian-American gentleman

Pribislav
11-13-2017, 03:23 PM
I don't have access to the following paper, but it reportedly shows P* being found on an island right off the coast of Croatia (Isle of Hvar):
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876/full

But an earlier paper reported the same thing:
https://www.nature.com/articles/5200992

There is no P* on the island of Hvar (nor anywhere else for that matter), all of those tested as P* almost certainly belong to clade Q1b-L275>>L245.

lgmayka
11-13-2017, 03:38 PM
There is no P* on the island of Hvar (nor anywhere else for that matter), all of those tested as P* almost certainly belong to clade Q1b-L275>>L245.
Or perhaps the mysterious Q-YP1600 (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1600/), for which YFull has an example from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Jean M
11-13-2017, 03:48 PM
This morning Jean Manco posted the following map on another thread. It makes a lot more sense than the Karafet 2015 proposal (haplogroup P originating in far southeast Asia and then backtracking to the Asian mainland and Europe).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19784&d=1510563609

Thanks. I didn't want to commit the nuisance of double posting. :) But here is the link to the actual post that explains my reasoning, which may or may not make sense to others: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12252-Is-Y-haplogroup-R-non-Caucasoid-and-Beringian-Siberian-in-origin&p=310203#post310203

kinman
11-13-2017, 03:50 PM
So, if Jean Manco and myself are correct about Haplogroup P originating in Tajikistan or one of the adjacent "Stans" countries, did P* simply go extinct in most of mainland Asia (which is the alternative scenario given by Karafet et al. 2015)?

P* may have never been very populous in mainland Asia and just got overwhelmed by other haplogroups (especially Q and R).


There is no P* on the island of Hvar (nor anywhere else for that matter), all of those tested as P* almost certainly belong to clade Q1b-L275>>L245.

Jean M
11-13-2017, 04:03 PM
So, if Jean Manco and myself are correct about Haplogroup P originating in Tajikistan or one of the adjacent "Stans" countries, did P* simply go extinct in most of mainland Asia (which is the alternative scenario given by Karafet et al. 2015)?

I hasten to add the usual reminder: no map of mine speculating on the origin and movements of any haologroup should be taken as anything more than a very rough guide. I don't know exactly where P first arose. I just suggest somewhere on a route west of the Himalayas.

parasar
11-13-2017, 04:07 PM
The 2015 paper (by Karafet et al.) also said that an alternative possible scenario was haplogroup P originating outside of southeast Asia with extinction of most of the P* populations in mainland Asia. And it turns out that there is more P* in Asia than previously thought. It has even recently been discovered as far west as Croatia in Europe. Wow!!!

What variety of P is this? All R, Q are of the M45 variety - so if this the type then yes there are samples such as this.

But if it is PxM45xB253 or even B253 that would be something since the string P295 to P27 (12ky worth) are all in SE Asia. Not only is the P string in SE Asia, the sister lines MS are there too which is about another about 5ky long string to P331. Above that we have a about 3k string from K9 to M526 to P331 also with many parallel line to P331 in SE Asia.

Pribislav
11-13-2017, 04:35 PM
Or perhaps the mysterious Q-YP1600 (https://yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1600/), for which YFull has an example from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Could be, but all YP1600 samples so far (2 Croats and possibly 2 Serbs) are from the mainland (Bosnia and Herzegovina), on the other hand there is already several Q1b samples from the islands. Unfortunately, results from Q-M242 FTDNA Project are not public, but I know for sure there was at least 1 Q1b sample from both Hvar and Korčula islands. Aforementioned study found 14,3% P* on Hvar (13/91), and 6,1% on Korčula (8/132). Authors used unfortunate classification, they should've wrote P(xR1a,R1b) instead of P*, which would essentially mean Q since there is no R2 nowhere near Balkans.

vettor
11-13-2017, 04:53 PM
Haplogroup P ( k2b2 ) is found in 28% of phillippines and 10% in Timor

P has to be close to his brother
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K2b1_(Y-DNA)

or else it makes no logical sense

my guess is between modern Thailand and Malaysia

Gnid
11-13-2017, 05:06 PM
Your claim that R1b* peaks in Kazakhastan is not true. R1b* peaks in Iran and the Arabian Peninsula. It even was found in North Africa. R* and R1* are also found in Near East and the Peninsula of the Arabs.

parasar
11-13-2017, 05:26 PM
Your claim that R1b* peaks in Kazakhastan is wrong. R1b* peaks in Iran and the Arabian Peninsula. It even was found in North Africa. R* and R1* are also very common in Near East and the Peninsula of the Arabs.

There are hardly any peaks. I would call them scattered examples.
There is a L278+ L389- cluster in South Asia too: Tajik1, FTDNA-267597 (Raza), bhu-0984, FTDNA-N93357 (Joshi).

Which very common R* samples are you referring to?

Gnid
11-13-2017, 05:30 PM
There are hardly any peaks. I would call them scattered examples.
There is a L278+ L389- cluster in South Asia too: Tajik1, FTDNA-267597 (Raza), bhu-0984, FTDNA-N93357 (Joshi).

Which very common R* samples are you referring to?
I changed the part with "very common" into "also found".

kinman
11-13-2017, 05:37 PM
Isn't it possible that haplogroup P's brother ( K2b1 ) also originated in the "Stans" area of central Asia and suffered the same extinction in mainland Asia?


Haplogroup P ( k2b2 ) is found in 28% of phillippines and 10% in Timor

P has to be close to his brother
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K2b1_(Y-DNA)

or else it makes no logical sense

my guess is between modern Thailand and Malaysia

vettor
11-13-2017, 05:44 PM
Isn't it possible that haplogroup P's brother ( K2b1 ) also originated in the "Stans" area of central Asia and suffered the same extinction in mainland Asia?

it seems too far away to be plausible ......my opinion

parasar
11-13-2017, 05:51 PM
Isn't it possible that haplogroup P's brother ( K2b1 ) also originated in the "Stans" area of central Asia and suffered the same extinction in mainland Asia?

Yes it is possible.
But probable - not likely from what we know at present.
The variety goes down from SE to NW Eurasia.
https://images.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v23/n3/images/ejhg2014106f2.jpg



For eg., it is possible that Y- CT, B, A all originated in Eurasia, with only CT surviving and B and A becoming extinct. But that would be highly unlikely - close to being improbable.
But as far as CT goes, yes we find it all over Eurasia.

kinman
11-13-2017, 08:41 PM
I'm not sure that is a fair comparison, because Haplogroup A was around for about 200,000 years before Haplogroups B and CT originated. Haplogroup A had lots of time to increase its population, spread out, and split into several different clades (making it less vulnerable to extinction).

In this case we are talking about two haplogroups (brother clades within K2b) which arose at virtually the same time. If they travelled together from the "Stans" area to the Thailand area relatively quickly, there may have been few of them in between (and therefore easily leaving no descendants in between). Extinction of P* in the "Stans" was perhaps just bad luck and/or low numbers, while P* in SE Asia had good luck. This seems like a far more probable scenario than haplogroups A and B in your example.


Yes it is possible.
But probable - not likely from what we know at present.
The variety goes down from SE to NW Eurasia.
https://images.nature.com/lw926/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v23/n3/images/ejhg2014106f2.jpg

For eg., it is possible that Y- CT, B, A all originated in Eurasia, with only CT surviving and B and A becoming extinct. But that would be highly unlikely - close to being improbable.
But as far as CT goes, yes we find it all over Eurasia.

alan
11-13-2017, 11:15 PM
The origin date of R1b seems to be something like 20000BC. The climate was atrocious and By that time there was a cold desert between China and the east Caspian. It seems really unlikely that R1b originated there. It probably came into being in a natural refugium somewhere nearby. Almost paradoxical though it sounds, many ice age Refugia were in microclimates in mountain areas not windswept plains.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-13-2017, 11:50 PM
Yeah I'd hedge that R/R1 originated in south central Asia. IMO was R1b the reaching Europe via a southern trajectory, then later reaching the Baltic & steppe, serially, via Caucasus and/ or Balkans.
This was rather suggestive on the basis of modern DNA, but now with the accruing aDNA & archaeological correlates, it can no longer be dismissed by the throw-away line about 'modern diversty'.

kinman
11-14-2017, 12:59 AM
Microclimates would be one reason I would favor mountain areas. And there would be caves to retreat into during the harsh winter months. The cold weather would make it easier to keep meat frozen for long periods of time (meat from a mammoth could last them a long time if kept frozen until needed). And wild apples (ancestors of today's domestic apples) grow in this region, and they could be stored for long periods of time (assuming they were growing in that area back then).


The origin date of R1b seems to be something like 20000BC. The climate was atrocious and By that time there was a cold desert between China and the east Caspian. It seems really unlikely that R1b originated there. It probably came into being in a natural refugium somewhere nearby. Almost paradoxical though it sounds, many ice age Refugia were in microclimates in mountain areas not windswept plains.

parasar
11-14-2017, 01:41 AM
I'm not sure that is a fair comparison, because Haplogroup A was around for about 200,000 years before Haplogroups B and CT originated. Haplogroup A had lots of time to increase its population, spread out, and split into several different clades (making it less vulnerable to extinction).

In this case we are talking about two haplogroups (brother clades within K2b) which arose at virtually the same time. If they travelled together from the "Stans" area to the Thailand area relatively quickly, there may have been few of them in between (and therefore easily leaving no descendants in between). Extinction of P* in the "Stans" was perhaps just bad luck and/or low numbers, while P* in SE Asia had good luck. This seems like a far more probable scenario than haplogroups A and B in your example.

Far more probable yes than the African comparison but still unlikely. Therefore I used different terms - "not likely" vs. "highly unlikely - close to being improbable," respectively.

P1 though numerous in population is but one singleton prong out of many phylogenitically.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xIyCVSPSm3I/U5LqVD5nawI/AAAAAAAACsM/TEjs1OTRu7k/s1600/Karafet-Y-DNA-K-tree-annotated.png

Gravetto-Danubian
11-14-2017, 05:15 AM
IMO was R1b the reaching Europe via a southern trajectory, then later reaching the Baltic & steppe, serially, via Caucasus and/ or Balkans.
.

To elaborate, the first wave - pre-P297 might have reached the Baltic from the south as the virgin lands were colonized with the climactic improvement.
Then later waves, eg, M73 and pre-M269, would have arrived with the adoption of pottery from the Near East (:)). .
A couple of theories have attempted to link pottery arriving from Siberia. But this has no grounds. The local specialists from the respective areas have rejected the idea, such as Kuzmin (specialising in Siberian archaeology), and Mazurkevich/Dolbunova ("recently, a hypothesis suggesting eastern origin of East European pottery has been discussed. However, the are no intermediate sites with pottery similar and synchronous with the first pottery in the Far East..; nor might any similarities be found between the pottery of Eastern Europe & early Eastern or Western Siberian ceramic assemblages. We suggest that the pottery in EE had special characteristics which could make it part of a near-eastern Neolithic package that arrived here in different ways and from different places" )

bmoney
11-14-2017, 06:43 AM
I'm not sure that is a fair comparison, because Haplogroup A was around for about 200,000 years before Haplogroups B and CT originated. Haplogroup A had lots of time to increase its population, spread out, and split into several different clades (making it less vulnerable to extinction).

In this case we are talking about two haplogroups (brother clades within K2b) which arose at virtually the same time. If they travelled together from the "Stans" area to the Thailand area relatively quickly, there may have been few of them in between (and therefore easily leaving no descendants in between). Extinction of P* in the "Stans" was perhaps just bad luck and/or low numbers, while P* in SE Asia had good luck. This seems like a far more probable scenario than haplogroups A and B in your example.

There is no way K2b - found in Australian Aboriginals, has come from Central Asia or the stans.

Australian Aboriginals are the first migrants out of Africa via the southern coastal route and have been isolated since then - this is well established. They have recently also found a small % of ASI and no ANI in a small % of the population on the northern side of the Australian continent suggesting contact with paleolithic Indians

It is not plausible that a Central Asian population has given them their y-dna haplgroup without leaving any autosomal trace

As for the P, based on distribution the diversity is clearly highest in SE Asia - suggesting a split with K2b near or in this region - K2b went on to Papua New Guinea and Australia

Jean M
11-14-2017, 08:16 AM
Then later waves, eg, M73 and pre-M269, would have arrived with the adoption of pottery from the Near East (:)). A couple of theories have attempted to link pottery arriving from Siberia. But this has no grounds. The local specialists from the respective areas have rejected the idea, such as Kuzmin (specialising in Siberian archaeology), and Mazurkevich/Dolbunova ("recently, a hypothesis suggesting eastern origin of East European pottery has been discussed. However, the are no intermediate sites with pottery similar and synchronous with the first pottery in the Far East..; nor might any similarities be found between the pottery of Eastern Europe & early Eastern or Western Siberian ceramic assemblages. We suggest that the pottery in EE had special characteristics which could make it part of a near-eastern Neolithic package that arrived here in different ways and from different places" )

I understand the desperation by Russian archaeologists to hang on to their idea that the earliest pottery in Europe was all Neolithic, which justified their classification of pottery-making hunter-gatherer cultures/sites as Neolithic, but it won't wash. There were no pottery-making hunter-gatherers in the heartland of the Neolithic. On the contrary, the earliest Neolithic in Western Asia was aceramic. (The Pre-Pottery Neolithic:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic ).

The earliest Levantine pottery (ca. 6400–6000 BC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarmukian_culture ) bears no resemblance to the earliest pottery in Europe, which is remarkably similar to that of Central Asia, which had thick walls and a pointed base, for use in cooking.

19795
The earliest European pottery - that of Staraya Elshanka on the River Samara, Russia, from c. 7000 BC.

Jean M
11-14-2017, 08:44 AM
Yeah I'd hedge that R/R1 originated in south central Asia. IMO was R1b the reaching Europe via a southern trajectory, then later reaching the Baltic & steppe, serially, via Caucasus and/ or Balkans.

This is reminiscent of the initial idea I had (as in AJ 2012) of R1a and R1b parting company around the Caspian, with R1b settling at the southern end initially and then moving into the Neolithic heartland and only reaching the steppe with dairy farmers. I was influenced by modern distribution, particularly that of V88 in Africa, which I judged had arrived with early farmers. I was aware of the alternative possibility that only V88 had taken a southern route, but kept it simple in 2012. That had to be revised in 2015 in the light of aDNA.

I am surprised that anyone is trying today to resurrect the idea of a southern route for the whole of R1b. There seems no good reason for it.

vettor
11-14-2017, 08:44 AM
Your claim that R1b* peaks in Kazakhastan is not true. R1b* peaks in Iran and the Arabian Peninsula. It even was found in North Africa. R* and R1* are also found in Near East and the Peninsula of the Arabs.

Peaks and origins of a marker are never the same

kinman
11-14-2017, 12:25 PM
But aren't those first Australian Aboriginals (who took the coastal route) actually Haplogroup C. The aboriginals in Haplogroup K probably came later, and I don't think there is any evidence that they took a coastal route.

If those later aboriginals (haplogroup K) came from central Asia they could have easily gone north of the Himalayas (through China), and then south. Wouldn't that help explain the autosomal evidence?


There is no way K2b - found in Australian Aboriginals, has come from Central Asia or the stans.

Australian Aboriginals are the first migrants out of Africa via the southern coastal route and have been isolated since then - this is well established. They have recently also found a small % of ASI and no ANI in a small % of the population on the northern side of the Australian continent suggesting contact with paleolithic Indians

It is not plausible that a Central Asian population has given them their y-dna haplgroup without leaving any autosomal trace

As for the P, based on distribution the diversity is clearly highest in SE Asia - suggesting a split with K2b near or in this region - K2b went on to Papua New Guinea and Australia

rms2
11-14-2017, 12:27 PM
It seems to me we have to ask ourselves what we know thus far from the ancient dna, and we know that Mal'ta Boy was RxR1 and lived 24k years ago in the area of Lake Baikal in Siberia.

There probably weren't a lot of Rs in existence at that time (or human beings period). Mal'ta Boy already had something like 53 private mutations (mentioned recently on another thread), so undoubtedly his contemporaries who belonged to y haplogroup R were likewise beyond R. One of them was the progenitor of the line leading to R1.

Anything is possible, and people can wander far in the course of several millennia, but Mal'ta Boy gives us something to go on at least and something closer to early R1 and R1b than SE Asian P.

Ebizur
11-14-2017, 12:54 PM
But aren't those first Australian Aboriginals (who took the coastal route) actually Haplogroup C. The aboriginals in Haplogroup K probably came later, and I don't think there is any evidence that they took a coastal route.The topology of the human Y-DNA phylogeny does not provide strong evidence to support your hypothesis of a temporal precedence in Oceania of haplogroup C over haplogroup K:

C1b-F1370 TMRCA 48,300 [95% CI 45,000 <-> 51,600] ybp (Among extant humans, C1b2 is found almost exclusively east of the Wallace Line, whereas C1b1 is found west of the Wallace Line and in continental Asia between Saudi Arabia and China.)
K2-M526 TMRCA 45,400 ybp [95% CI 41,400 <-> 49,600] ybp (The TMRCA estimate for K2b is identical to the TMRCA estimate for K2 as a whole. Similar to the situation regarding C1b2 and C1b1, K2b1 is found almost exclusively east of the Wallace Line, whereas K2b2 is found mainly in Eurasia and America.)

I could go into greater detail, but suffice it to say that the available evidence indicates a very old presence of K2b1 in Oceania; it probably has been in the region since roughly the time of its genealogical split with K2b2.

Jean M
11-14-2017, 03:03 PM
It seems to me we have to ask ourselves what we know thus far from the ancient dna, and we know that Mal'ta Boy was RxR1 and lived 24k years ago in the area of Lake Baikal in Siberia.

He died at Mal'ta, but it has been suggested that the site lay on a reindeer migration route. If so, the family of Mal'ta boy would camp there in spring and autumn, to capture reindeer coming and going. In winter they might have retreated into the sheltered Yenisei river basin to the west, which was the chief refuge for Siberian hunter-gatherers of the time. In summer they could pursue the woolly mammoth which grazed the Siberian steppe.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-14-2017, 03:05 PM
I understand the desperation by Russian archaeologists to hang on to their idea that the earliest pottery in Europe was all Neolithic, which justified their classification of pottery-making hunter-gatherer cultures/sites as Neolithic, but it won't wash.
I'm not sure I do. Why would Russian archaeologists be desperate to make the earliest ceramics in the Levant as opposed to their own backyard ?


There was no early pottery-making hunter-gatherers in the heartland of the Neolithic. On the contrary, the earliest Neolithic in Western Asia was aceramic. (The Pre-Pottery Neolithic:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic ).

The earliest Levantine pottery (ca. 6400–6000 BC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarmukian_culture ) bears no resemblance to the earliest pottery in Europe, which is remarkably similar to that of Central Asia, which had thick walls and a pointed base, for use in cooking.

19795
The earliest European pottery - that of Staraya Elshanka on the River Samara, Russia, from c. 7000 BC.

I see you accepted my Dorothy Dixer :) Yes, the pointed pot you have shown is from Elshanka, and the cited Mazurkevich points to, as most archaeologists do, the Aral-Caspian influences on Elshanka culture. Based on Vybornov's recent 200 RC evaluation, ceramics started c. 6500 BC, which is essentially the same as 6400 BC in the Levant- i.e. ceramics appeared over a broad region from N.E. to Black Sea & east of Caspian at similar time.
In the Volga-Caspian region, this was a non-productive 'Neolithic', or 'ceramic Mesolithic'.

However, the situation on the lower Don is different. Here, at some sites (R. Yar, Metveev Kurgan) pottery appears with the whole package of agriculture, incl productive economy, housing forms similar in East Anatolia, etc. And it is probably from the lower Don where Khvalynsk & its predecessor acquire their productive economy & new toolkit during the Late Neol / Eneolithic.
There are probably two or more influences on ceramics in E.E. and this complexity probably affects the understanding of 'near eastern' admixture in steppe groups.


I am surprised that anyone is trying today to resurrect the idea of a southern route for the whole of R1b. There seems no good reason for it.
Oh well, maybe Im a slow learner.

parasar
11-14-2017, 03:16 PM
It seems to me we have to ask ourselves what we know thus far from the ancient dna, and we know that Mal'ta Boy was RxR1 and lived 24k years ago in the area of Lake Baikal in Siberia.

There probably weren't a lot of Rs in existence at that time (or human beings period). Mal'ta Boy already had something like 53 private mutations (mentioned recently on another thread), so undoubtedly his contemporaries who belonged to y haplogroup R were likewise beyond R. One of them was the progenitor of the line leading to R1.

Anything is possible, and people can wander far in the course of several millennia, but Mal'ta Boy gives us something to go on at least and something closer to early R1 and R1b than SE Asian P.

MA1 was also mtDNA U, which an early split under mt R and if recall no mt U has been found in SE Asia.
As far as number of mutations, are those 53 actual or extrapolated?

parasar
11-14-2017, 03:43 PM
MA1 was also mtDNA U, which an early split under mt R and if recall no mt U has been found in SE Asia.
As far as number of mutations, are those 53 actual or extrapolated?

The actual number of private mutations is 35 not 53, but I had estimated previously that ~70 is a possible number.


... pre-R derivative - 5 mutations ancestral and with 35 private mutations ((1.5X on 5.8 million bases).
I have made an assumption that his age is the approximate age of R1 for ballpark dates.


R level mutations are defined in terms of M242 and the R1-R2 split. MA1 is ancestral at 5 of those and shares I believe 19 of the remaining 36. So he is basal to R by those 5 and further derived by his 35 private SNP. So I have preferred to term him a pre-R derivative.

His depth of coverage is relatively low (1.5X on 5.8 million bases) so it is possible that many SNPs were missed. In the figure below from DE to R we have 153+6+17+96+36+5=313 mutations. At each level we can see that MA1 falls about halfway short. As seen in the figure he has 72+3+5+39+19=138. So going approximately, he is possibly ancestral at ~10 and derived at ~70 compared to the coverage of the other samples on the chart (4X http://www.1000genomes.org/about).

...

vettor
11-14-2017, 04:49 PM
was there any R1 migration north of the caspian sea if at those early times the areas where underwater

Global warming beginning from about 16,000 BP caused the melting of the Scandinavia Ice Sheet, resulting in massive river discharge that flowed into the Caspian Sea, raising it to as much as 50 metres (160 ft) above normal present-day levels. The rise was extremely rapid and the Caspian basin could not contain all the floodwater, which flowed from the northwest coastline of the Caspian Sea, through the Kuma-Manych Depression and Kerch Strait, over the current eastern coastline of the Sea of Azov into the ancient Black Sea basin.

By the end of the Pleistocene this would have raised the level of the Black Sea by some 60 to 70 metres (200 to 230 ft) 20 metres (66 ft) below its present-day level, and flooding large areas that were formerly available for settlement or hunting. Tchepalyga suggests this may have formed the basis for legends of the great Deluge.

The Black sea and Aegean sea eventually where connected 11,000 BP

https://s20.postimg.org/u7iqy9e6l/flood.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Radboud
11-14-2017, 04:59 PM
There is no way K2b - found in Australian Aboriginals, has come from Central Asia or the stans.

Australian Aboriginals are the first migrants out of Africa via the southern coastal route and have been isolated since then - this is well established. They have recently also found a small % of ASI and no ANI in a small % of the population on the northern side of the Australian continent suggesting contact with paleolithic Indians

It is not plausible that a Central Asian population has given them their y-dna haplgroup without leaving any autosomal trace

As for the P, based on distribution the diversity is clearly highest in SE Asia - suggesting a split with K2b near or in this region - K2b went on to Papua New Guinea and Australia


Diversity and frequencies may be misleading. For example, based on modern diversity it was thought that R1a expanded from India/Iran to Europe. That theory has been disproved by Ancient dna. Btw, we must not forget the two K2a's from Romania and Western Siberia.(Oase 1 and Ust'-Ishim)

Jean M
11-14-2017, 05:07 PM
I'm not sure I do. Why would Russian archaeologists be desperate to make the earliest ceramics in the Levant as opposed to their own backyard ?

Because they adopted a system of labelling any site with pottery as Neolithic. Changing this would be a huge upset in their whole system of archaeological nomenclature. Imagine it. It's not just a Russian problem. I hear that some Latvian archaeologists were wailing that if they stopped labelling pottery-making foragers as Neolithic, they wouldn't have any Neolithic. As you probably realise, I feel that it would be best for them to grasp the nettle. This difference in labelling can cause huge confusion in international studies.


Based on Vybornov's recent 200 RC evaluation, ceramics started c. 6500 BC, which is essentially the same as 6400 BC in the Levant-

That sort of fiddling around with chronology will just make it more plausible to some that pottery entered Western Asia from Central Asia, which has been suggested. I don't think so myself, because of the differences of style, shape, use and method of construction of the two types of pottery, and the evidence of trial and error in early ceramics of Western Asia. It looks to me on present evidence as though pottery was invented independently in Western Asia in the context of sedentary farming communities, with different needs to those of foragers.

Obviously farming arrived eventually on/near the steppe and brought with it types of pottery very different from the forager pottery. Strikingly different. That makes no difference to the glaringly obvious derivation of the forager pottery from Central Asian types.

Gnid
11-14-2017, 05:24 PM
Peaks and origins of a marker are never the same
And? I just say that R1b* does not peak in Kazakhstan, I don't see how your words on this are relevant.

vettor
11-14-2017, 05:35 PM
And? I just say that R1b* does not peak in Kazakhstan, I don't see how your words on this are relevant.

You must be speaking about someone else, because I said IMO, R1a and R1b formed south of the aral sea

rms2
11-14-2017, 09:04 PM
MA1 was also mtDNA U, which an early split under mt R and if recall no mt U has been found in SE Asia.
As far as number of mutations, are those 53 actual or extrapolated?

I was working from memory based on something someone else wrote on another thread, and it's quite possible I transposed the digits.

bmoney
11-14-2017, 11:54 PM
But aren't those first Australian Aboriginals (who took the coastal route) actually Haplogroup C. The aboriginals in Haplogroup K probably came later, and I don't think there is any evidence that they took a coastal route.

If those later aboriginals (haplogroup K) came from central Asia they could have easily gone north of the Himalayas (through China), and then south. Wouldn't that help explain the autosomal evidence?

So you're suggesting a K holding Aboriginal population came later to the earliest Aboriginals who were Hap C - any evidence?

alan
11-14-2017, 11:55 PM
I don't think R escaped west along the more flat Stan's between Altai and the east Caspian. That was probably cold desert by 24000BC. However the northern edge of mountain fringe just to the south of the desert is a definite possibility.

bmoney
11-15-2017, 12:03 AM
Diversity and frequencies may be misleading. For example, based on modern diversity it was thought that R1a expanded from India/Iran to Europe. That theory has been disproved by Ancient dna. Btw, we must not forget the two K2a's from Romania and Western Siberia.(Oase 1 and Ust'-Ishim)

South Asia is predominantly R1a1b2a2* (R-M780) - so how could it have any diversity?

In regards to P - there is literally no other candidate apart from SE Asia - feel free to suggest one

Luzon is also the only location where P*, P1* and rare P2 are now found together,[2] along with significant levels of K2b1.[5] Even though P1* is now more common among individuals in Eastern Siberia and Central Asia, the above distributions tend to suggest that P* (P295) emerged in South East Asia.[2][3]

Based on shared ancestry with Australian Aboriginals (k2b and P are a split) - who are an attested isolated southern coastal route population - it descended from the southern coastal route migration and not populations who migrated later out of Africa

Also, I'm not suggesting anything about K2a

alan
11-15-2017, 12:08 AM
I don't think R escaped west along the more flat Stan's between Altai and the east Caspian. That was probably cold desert by 24000BC. However the northern edge of mountain fringe just to the south of the desert is a definite possibility.

One thing of note is that Malta boy is a chronological outlier of his culture which otherwise left no reliabke radiocarbon dates outside the 30000-24000BC band. So he may have been about 2000 years later but very few of his culture were still around. So there had been a collapse of population with the onset of full LGM conditions about 24000BC. So it is possible that they could have escaped west before full desertification between China and the east Caspian had taken grip or even used the steppe tundra belt further north. But what kind would that have been? Very early R1 existed around then according to y fullj

kinman
11-15-2017, 12:53 AM
So are you suggesting Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan (maybe even Tajikistan)?


I don't think R escaped west along the more flat Stan's between Altai and the east Caspian. That was probably cold desert by 24000BC. However the northern edge of mountain fringe just to the south of the desert is a definite possibility.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-15-2017, 01:10 AM
was there any R1 migration north of the caspian sea if at those early times the areas where underwater

Global warming beginning from about 16,000 BP caused the melting of the Scandinavia Ice Sheet, resulting in massive river discharge that flowed into the Caspian Sea, raising it to as much as 50 metres (160 ft) above normal present-day levels. The rise was extremely rapid and the Caspian basin could not contain all the floodwater, which flowed from the northwest coastline of the Caspian Sea, through the Kuma-Manych Depression and Kerch Strait, over the current eastern coastline of the Sea of Azov into the ancient Black Sea basin.

By the end of the Pleistocene this would have raised the level of the Black Sea by some 60 to 70 metres (200 to 230 ft) 20 metres (66 ft) below its present-day level, and flooding large areas that were formerly available for settlement or hunting. Tchepalyga suggests this may have formed the basis for legends of the great Deluge.

The Black sea and Aegean sea eventually where connected 11,000 BP

https://s20.postimg.org/u7iqy9e6l/flood.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

They would have needed to treck through the Urals or even further north for a northern R1b route to be possible, unless lake freezed over in winter.

Jean M
11-15-2017, 12:22 PM
One thing of note is that Malta boy is a chronological outlier of his culture which otherwise left no reliabke radiocarbon dates outside the 30000-24000BC band. So he may have been about 2000 years later but very few of his culture were still around. So there had been a collapse of population with the onset of full LGM conditions about 24000BC. So it is possible that they could have escaped west before full desertification between China and the east Caspian had taken grip or even used the steppe tundra belt further north.

I thought that the Yenisei Valley refuge was in use throughout the LGM. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-016-0342-z

LGM sites in Siberia, from Kuzmin and Keates 2016:
19811

rms2
11-15-2017, 12:38 PM
. . . Very early R1 existed around then according to y fullj

YFull has the mrca of R1 at about 1,200 years after Mal'ta Boy.

kinman
11-17-2017, 11:21 PM
I am curious about the early man found in Tianyuan Cave, China. I think I read that he was in mitochondrial haplogroup B. However, do we know in which YDNA haplogroup he was?

Megalophias
11-18-2017, 03:08 AM
Tianyuan's Y haplogroup hasn't been published yet, but it is being analyzed.