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rms2
11-12-2017, 11:36 PM
I looked for an R1b-V88 subforum to post this in, but apparently we don't have one.

Romilius recently pointed out that two of the Neolithic skeletons from Blätterhöhle (Cave of the Leaves) in Germany, I1593 and I1594, were apparently R1b-V88, at least that is what Genetiker found in the raw data
here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/08/y-snp-calls-from-neolithic-europe/).

The idea that one of them, I1593, was some kind of "pre-M269" was evidently an error.

The Baalberge R1b skeleton, I0559, was also R1b-V88.

We already knew Els Trocs was R1b-V88, but apparently he was also derived for Y8451, which is downstream of V88 and Y7777.

Interesting stuff. Thanks, Romilius, for the update.

Joe B
11-12-2017, 11:57 PM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?51-R1b-Early-Subclades
Most of the R1b-V88 threads are in Forum: R1b Early Subclades.

parasar
11-13-2017, 12:55 AM
I looked for an R1b-V88 subforum to post this in, but apparently we don't have one.

Romilius recently pointed out that two of the Neolithic skeletons from Blätterhöhle (Cave of the Leaves) in Germany, I1593 and I1594, were apparently R1b-V88, at least that is what Genetiker found in the raw data
here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/08/y-snp-calls-from-neolithic-europe/).

The idea that one of them, I1593, was some kind of "pre-M269" was evidently an error.

The Baalberge R1b skeleton, I0559, was also R1b-V88.

We already knew Els Trocs was R1b-V88, but apparently he was also derived for Y8451, which is downstream of V88 and Y7777.

Interesting stuff. Thanks, Romilius, for the update.

Yes this comment in particular looks to leave no doubt.
"I’ve updated I1593’s calls to include its M269-level calls from the genotype data. They’re all negative."

R.Rocca
11-17-2017, 01:37 PM
Gravetto-Danubian posted this on Eurogenes:


Blatterhohle don't make much of a diff. for BB

Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108
Germany_MN 43.1 %
Yamnaya_Samara 22.9 %
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 22.45 %
Armenia_EBA 10.5 %
Dai 0.5 %

Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0112
Yamnaya_Samara 29.45 %
Hungary_CA:I1497 27.95 %
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 24.35 %
Iberia_ChL 8.05 %

let's wait for GAC or Romanian Eneolithics

I've used this movie quote before, but it fits so I'll use it again: "These are not the droids we're looking for."

R.Rocca
11-17-2017, 02:55 PM
It is also interesting that Latvian HG is closer than Blatterhole. Although Latvian Hunter Gatherers were largely M73, we know that they contained some EHG and are a lot closer to the M269 line by many thousands of years than they are to V88. It is understood that Latvian HG is too old and likely serves as a proxy to something a little closer to the steppe during the Copper Age.

rms2
11-17-2017, 03:05 PM
The idea that one of the Blätterhöhle skeletons was "pre-M269" was used to argue or at least infer that M269 did not originate on the steppe but somewhere in Europe west of it, was primarily WHG in origin, and that therefore Bell Beaker acquired its steppe dna via admixture with Corded Ware women. So it is significant that both Blätterhöhle skeletons were R1b-V88 and not pre-M269 (even though I1593 was born long after the mrca of M269).

Alexfritz and moesan have pointed out that the recent Mathieson et al paper on ancient SE Europe shows there was female sex bias in Bell Beaker's acquisition of Neolithic farmer dna (AN, Anatolian Neolithic), i.e., they got most of it from their mothers. I have not yet had the chance to really check this out in Mathieson et al, but if what moesan reports here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12662-Is-the-Globular-Amphora-Culture-the-clue-to-R1b-L51-into-Central-Europe&p=311200&viewfull=1#post311200) is right, then it certainly looks like that is the case. Bell Beaker's Yamnaya dna was evidently inherited for the most part agnatically, while its AN dna was inherited for the most part matrilineally.

Romilius
11-17-2017, 05:30 PM
Hello friends,

Anna Szécsényi-Nagy answered my e-mail: she wrote that for sample I1593 there weren't the calls written in Supplementary information... so no R1b1a2, but only R1b1a.

See (I copied and pasted the text):
No, we did not detect such positions at this sample.It had a quite bad preservation.
These positions were called:
R1b1a:CTS7585:17545608G->T; R1b1a:FGC35:18407611C->T; R1b1a:FGC41:7900883C->A; R1b1a:L754:22889018G->A; R1b1a:L761:16773870A->G; R1b1:CTS2229:14226692T->A; R1b1:L278:18914441C->T; R1b1:L822:7960019G->A; R1b1:L1349:22722580T->C; R1b:M343:2887824C->A; R1:CTS916:7084535G->A; R1:CTS2565:14366723C->T; R1:CTS3321:14829196C->T; R1:CTS5611:16394489T->G; R1:L875:16742224A->G; R1:P231:9989615A->G; R1:P238:7771131G->A; R:CTS207:2810583A->G; R:CTS7880:17723850C->T; R:CTS8311:17930099C->A; R:CTS10663:22687547A->T; R:CTS11075:22934109A->G; R:F370:16856357T->C; R:F652:23631629C->A; R:FGC1168:15667208G->C; R:L1347:22818334C->T; R:M613:7133986G->C; R:M651:9889199G->A; R:M718:17334694G->T; R:P227:21409706G->C; R:P280:21843090C->G

rms2
11-17-2017, 06:18 PM
Hello friends,

Anna Szécsényi-Nagy answered my e-mail: she wrote that for sample I1593 there weren't the calls written in Supplementary information... so no R1b1a2, but only R1b1a.

See (I copied and pasted the text):
No, we did not detect such positions at this sample.It had a quite bad preservation.
These positions were called:
R1b1a:CTS7585:17545608G->T; R1b1a:FGC35:18407611C->T; R1b1a:FGC41:7900883C->A; R1b1a:L754:22889018G->A; R1b1a:L761:16773870A->G; R1b1:CTS2229:14226692T->A; R1b1:L278:18914441C->T; R1b1:L822:7960019G->A; R1b1:L1349:22722580T->C; R1b:M343:2887824C->A; R1:CTS916:7084535G->A; R1:CTS2565:14366723C->T; R1:CTS3321:14829196C->T; R1:CTS5611:16394489T->G; R1:L875:16742224A->G; R1:P231:9989615A->G; R1:P238:7771131G->A; R:CTS207:2810583A->G; R:CTS7880:17723850C->T; R:CTS8311:17930099C->A; R:CTS10663:22687547A->T; R:CTS11075:22934109A->G; R:F370:16856357T->C; R:F652:23631629C->A; R:FGC1168:15667208G->C; R:L1347:22818334C->T; R:M613:7133986G->C; R:M651:9889199G->A; R:M718:17334694G->T; R:P227:21409706G->C; R:P280:21843090C->G

They weren't written in the Supplementary Information, but apparently Genetiker got the V88+ and M269- calls from the raw data.

Romilius
11-17-2017, 07:10 PM
They weren't written in the Supplementary Information, but apparently Genetiker got the V88+ and M269- calls from the raw data.

Oh, ok... because I read in Supplementary information the informations about the calls downstream R1b1a1a2.

rms2
11-17-2017, 11:58 PM
Delete, please.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-18-2017, 07:20 PM
Here is an interesting run for one of the best quality BB individuals:

Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108
"Tiszapolgar_ECA" 40.5
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 27.3
"Yamnaya_Samara" 22.25
"Armenia_EBA" 8.35

Add: The upper Tisza might have been on the path from steppe to BB. Gendered burials starts to appear in LN - Eneolithic east-central Europe. So the female admixture for BB might have come from such a Group, as well as the custom of gendered burial.

rms2
11-18-2017, 07:25 PM
Here is an interesting run for one of the best quality BB individuals:

Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108
"Tiszapolgar_ECA" 40.5
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 27.3
"Yamnaya_Samara" 22.25
"Armenia_EBA" 8.35

Looking at Jean M's Ancient Eurasian DNA site at I0108, I don't see an entry for that sample's sex, and there is no y haplogroup reported.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-18-2017, 07:26 PM
Looking at Jean M's Ancient Eurasian DNA site at I0108, I don't see an entry for that sample's sex, and there is no y haplogroup reported.

Almost certainly I2a something, if it's a male.

Agamemnon
11-18-2017, 07:37 PM
My mother is extremely close to I0108:

http://pichoster.net/images/2017/11/18/e8d590c240c5422e459e2f213b996e95.png

Romilius
11-19-2017, 09:42 AM
I remember that when that sample number 3 from Els Trocs popped up as R1b1, some amateurs gave a look to it in order to find simultaneously the V88 equivalent SNP. I was wondering about the fact that we can ask them if they could do it again with Blatterhohle samples... so it will be surer the connection between those neolithic samples and V88 line.

rms2
11-19-2017, 02:00 PM
I remember that when that sample number 3 from Els Trocs popped up as R1b1, some amateurs gave a look to it in order to find simultaneously the V88 equivalent SNP. I was wondering about the fact that we can ask them if they could do it again with Blatterhohle samples... so it will be surer the connection between those neolithic samples and V88 line.

I'm not a huge follower of Genetiker, but he seems to be pretty good at looking at the raw data when it is available. Of course, having another pair or two of eyes couldn't hurt.

Romilius
11-19-2017, 04:06 PM
I'm not a huge follower of Genetiker, but he seems to be pretty good at looking at the raw data when it is available. Of course, having another pair or two of eyes couldn't hurt.

Yes... but I don't remember who was the person to study that Troc 3...

Rethel
11-19-2017, 04:54 PM
I looked for an R1b-V88 subforum to post this in, but apparently we don't have one.

Romilius recently pointed out that two of the Neolithic skeletons from Blätterhöhle (Cave of the Leaves) in Germany, I1593 and I1594, were apparently R1b-V88, at least that is what Genetiker found in the raw data
here (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/11/08/y-snp-calls-from-neolithic-europe/).

The idea that one of them, I1593, was some kind of "pre-M269" was evidently an error.

The Baalberge R1b skeleton, I0559, was also R1b-V88.

We already knew Els Trocs was R1b-V88, but apparently he was also derived for Y8451, which is downstream of V88 and Y7777.

Interesting stuff. Thanks, Romilius, for the update.

Ergo another ficional thousands of years and stupid "serious scientific
proofs" and yet more stupid theories did vanish... how wonderfull. :)

rms2
11-19-2017, 05:21 PM
Yes... but I don't remember who was the person to study that Troc 3...

I think that was Genetiker, too, at least to begin with.

R.Rocca
11-20-2017, 12:03 AM
Here is an interesting run for one of the best quality BB individuals:

Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108
"Tiszapolgar_ECA" 40.5
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 27.3
"Yamnaya_Samara" 22.25
"Armenia_EBA" 8.35

Add: The upper Tisza might have been on the path from steppe to BB. Gendered burials starts to appear in LN - Eneolithic east-central Europe. So the female admixture for BB might have come from such a Group, as well as the custom of gendered burial.

Very interesting white encrusted pedestalled bowl from the Tiszapolgar Culture (thanks to Bernard for the image)...

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/TiszapolgarPotery.jpg

kevinduffy
11-20-2017, 02:31 AM
Almost certainly I2a something, if it's a male.

But if it was Bell Beaker would it not be R1b?

Gravetto-Danubian
11-20-2017, 07:07 AM
But if it was Bell Beaker would it not be R1b?


I think you might have misunderstood what I was being asked : the probable Y hg provenance of any hypothetical Tiszapolgar males.
Yet pre-BB males coming from the steppe could still have acquired their MNE admixture from TZP females on way to Central Europe.
Tiszapolgar is a Chalcolithic culture in east Hungary; exactly where Yamnaya kurgans later appear. The suggestive match is eerily perfect, if one assumes a BB - Hungary yamnaya link, but of course can change when new data becomes available.

R.Rocca
11-20-2017, 04:00 PM
I think you might have misunderstood what I was being asked : the probable Y hg provenance of any hypothetical Tiszapolgar males.
Yet pre-BB males coming from the steppe could still have acquired their MNE admixture from TZP females on way to Central Europe.
Tiszapolgar is a Chalcolithic culture in east Hungary; exactly where Yamnaya kurgans later appear. The suggestive match is eerily perfect, if one assumes a BB - Hungary yamnaya link, but of course can change when new data becomes available.

The Tiszapolgar Culture is a thousand years too early to be a direct input into R1b-L51 Bell Beaker. However, if the area of NE Hungary remained genetically stable, then there is a chance that incoming Yamanya R1b-L51 males mixed with the locals to give rise to the Eastern Bell Beaker and perhaps even Mako-Kosihy-Caka Cultures. This also differentiates itself from the southern banks of the Danube and the Vucedol Culture which we know contained R1b-Z2103.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-20-2017, 06:36 PM
The Tiszapolgar Culture is a thousand years too early to be a direct input into R1b-L51 Bell Beaker. However, if the area of NE Hungary remained genetically stable, then there is a chance that incoming Yamanya R1b-L51 males mixed with the locals to give rise to the Eastern Bell Beaker and perhaps even Mako-Kosihy-Caka Cultures. This also differentiates itself from the southern banks of the Danube and the Vucedol Culture which we know contained R1b-Z2103.

Yes, of course Tizsapolgar c. 4000 BC. What would be interesting is the Romanian Eneolithic from Gonzalez-Fortes dating to c. 3300 BC.

R.Rocca
11-20-2017, 08:35 PM
Interesting as well is that the Tizsapolgar Culture settlements (bottom left image) and the "true" Yamnaya kurgans (black dots, below right image, as per Horváth 2013) are almost entirely to the east of the Tisza River. This could have been where R-L51 expanded locally ~2900 BC, not to expand west/north until ~2600 BC. The "doubtful" kurgans (the gray dots on the graphic below, again as per Horváth) are all to the west of the Tisza River. This western area may have been where R-Z2103 brough some Yamnaya like influences to Copper Age I2a and G2a groups, which then brought those influences to Alps and even further west. The predecessor of this group could have migrated along the southern banks of the Danube and formed the Vucedol culture.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Tizsapolgar_and_Yamnaya.png

MitchellSince1893
11-21-2017, 02:12 AM
Link to Tiszapolgár culture burial orientations, grave goods etc.


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/274194341_fig11_Fig-12-Tiszavalk-Kenderfold-male-grave-29-of-Bodrogkeresztur-culture-2-4-6-7


...The custom of burying women on their left side, and men on their right side, has also been documented at several other Late Neolithic sites in that region, e.g. in Szegvár-Tűzköves (Korek 1987, 58), Hódmezővásárhely-Gorzsa (Horváth 1987, 45), and Vésztő-Mágor (Anders, Nagy 2007, 91). In the Tiszapolgár culture, women were interred in a flexed position on their left side (Fig. 9: A, C, e), and men in a flexed position on their right side (Fig. 9: B, F, G; 10). Burials were mostly oriented toward E or SE (Nevizánsky 1984, Table I). However, at the well-known cemetery in Tiszapolgár-Basatanya, orientation toward W was dominant (Bognár-Kutzian 1963). In the oldest graves at the cemetery, the dead were placed in a slightly flexed position (Häusler 1994, 40). The number of burials deposited in an extended supine position (Fig. 9: D) did not exceed 10% (Lichter 2001, 277). In younger graves at the cemetery, orientation toward E was the most frequent, and bodies were placed in a more flexed position than in the previous period (Häusler 1994, 40). At the cemetery in Tiszavalk-Kenderföld (Fig. 11), dated at the younger phase of the Bodrogkeresztúr culture, graves were mostly oriented toward SE (Patay 1978, 54). In the Tiszapolgár culture, male and female graves differed considerably in their inventory. Male burials were equipped with e.g. axes or battle-axes made of stone, copper or antler, wild boar tusks, flint cores and blades, and pigs’ mandibles (Fig. 10). Female graves contained ornaments fashioned from stone or copper beads. Many other types of artefacts have been documented for both male and female burials, though e.g. heavy copper armlets are more frequent in the former (Häusler 1994, 41–42; Lichter 2001, 280–289). The Bodrogkeresztúr culture carried on the custom of gender-differentiated grave inventory. Similarly to the practice accepted in the Tiszapolgár culture, male burials were equipped with axes and battle-axes, and also with flint arrow- heads and copper awls (Fig. 12). Arte- facts typical of female graves included golden ornaments, stone beads and spindle whorls (Häusler 1994, 42; Lichter 2001, 330–344, 353). Gender-differentiated burial rights were characteristic of the Lublin-Volhynia culture as well. Men were interred in a flexed position on their right side (Fig. 13), women on their left side (Fig. 14). The dominant orientation for both groups was toward S (Zakościelna 2006a, 89). Male graves contained copper axes, battle- axes and chisels, bone and copper daggers, long blades and flint arrow- heads (Fig. 13), while ornaments and beads made of shell were typical of female graves (Fig. 14). Ceramic vessels, copper ornaments and pendants made from wild boar tusks, however, have been documented for both kinds of burials (Wilk 2004; 2006; Zakościelna 2006b; Zakościelna, Matraszek 2007). Within the Lengyel culture, the Brześć Kujawski group (belonging to the Late Linear Pottery) was another cultural unit observing gender- differentiated burial rites. Here, too, men were interred in a flexed position on their right side (Fig. 15: 3, 4), women on their left side (Fig. 15: 1, 2; Czerniak 1980, 118; Grygiel 2008, 97–118, 195–200; 305–308, 378, 899–986, 1093–1096; Fig. 81–102, 172–177, 264–267, 323; 761–848, 935–938, 994–995).



https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Slawomir_Kadrow/publication/274194341/figure/fig11/AS:[email protected]/Fig-12-Tiszavalk-Kenderfold-male-grave-29-of-Bodrogkeresztur-culture-2-4-6-7.png

Kale
11-21-2017, 07:20 AM
Here is an interesting run for one of the best quality BB individuals:

Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108
"Tiszapolgar_ECA" 40.5
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 27.3
"Yamnaya_Samara" 22.25
"Armenia_EBA" 8.35

Add: The upper Tisza might have been on the path from steppe to BB. Gendered burials starts to appear in LN - Eneolithic east-central Europe. So the female admixture for BB might have come from such a Group, as well as the custom of gendered burial.

This looks like an nmonte output, what columns are you using and what is the distance? It seems really strange that much Latvia_HG and so little Yamnaya.

kinman
11-21-2017, 01:39 PM
Are there reasons to believe that it is more likely that these burials east of the Tisza River are R-L51, rather than R-Z2103 expanding into this area from the south? And are there any studies in the pipeline which will finally show to which haplogroup most of them belonged?



Interesting as well is that the Tizsapolgar Culture settlements (bottom left image) and the "true" Yamnaya kurgans (black dots, below right image, as per Horváth 2013) are almost entirely to the east of the Tisza River. This could have been where R-L51 expanded locally ~2900 BC, not to expand west/north until ~2600 BC. The "doubtful" kurgans (the gray dots on the graphic below, again as per Horváth) are all to the west of the Tisza River. This western area may have been where R-Z2103 brough some Yamnaya like influences to Copper Age I2a and G2a groups, which then brought those influences to Alps and even further west. The predecessor of this group could have migrated along the southern banks of the Danube and formed the Vucedol culture.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Tizsapolgar_and_Yamnaya.png

R.Rocca
11-21-2017, 04:59 PM
Are there reasons to believe that it is more likely that these burials east of the Tisza River are R-L51, rather than R-Z2103 expanding into this area from the south? And are there any studies in the pipeline which will finally show to which haplogroup most of them belonged?

I don't know the we can say that they are more or less likely to be R-L51 at all as perhaps R-L51 was just a minor group, but it is an area of interest because:

1. From what I think I know, this is the largest concentration of Yamnaya burials in the Balkans and also the furthest west. It would make more sense for an R-L51 population to be at Yamnaya's westernmost area for it to eventually become R1b Bell Beaker.

2. R-Z2103 has been found in Yamnaya and the Yamnaya influenced Vucedol Culture thus far, and Vucedol had an important presence on the Danube. R-L51 has been absent (thus far).

3. Given that Olalde had the following to say about non-Iberian Bell Beaker samples:


In contrast, for Beaker Complex individuals outside Iberia,
models using Iberian populations as a source for their Neolithic ancestry are rejected.
We obtain a good fit for Globular_Amphora_LN and TRB_Sweden_MN, two
populations with a hunter-gatherer component close to KO1 on the cline defined by
LaBraña1-KO1 (Extended Data Fig. 2; Table S5), and beyond Loschbour on the cline
defined by LaBraña1-Loschbour (Table S6). Other central European populations such
as Germany_MN or Hungary_LCA are rejected, but their fit can be improved by adding
KO1 as a third source (Table S8), suggesting that the true admixing population likely
had more hunter-gatherer ancestry than either Germany_MN or Hungary_LCA.

Given the need for a GAC/TRB type population and the good fit for Latvia_HG which were at least on the R1b-M73 branch, it could be that R-L51 made the journey via the northern Carpathian Mountains shown in Harrison and Heyd's map below:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Yamnaya_Harrison_and_Heyd.png

kinman
11-21-2017, 06:04 PM
That certainly makes sense, and could very well be true. However, I am sort of playing "devil's advocate", and holding out for the idea that R-L51's migration north of the Carpathians went even further west until they got to the early Amber Road and then south to the Danube between Vienna and Bratislava. That would give them even more exposure to GAC/TRB.

So I am still predicting that those burials east of Tisza River are probably R-Z2103. Any idea when
the male haplogroup(s) of those burials will be determined and published?


I don't know the we can say that they are more or less likely to be R-L51 at all as perhaps R-L51 was just a minor group, but it is an area of interest because:

1. From what I think I know, this is the largest concentration of Yamnaya burials in the Balkans and also the furthest west. It would make more sense for an R-L51 population to be at Yamnaya's westernmost area for it to eventually become R1b Bell Beaker.

2. R-Z2103 has been found in Yamnaya and the Yamnaya influenced Vucedol Culture thus far, and Vucedol had an important presence on the Danube. R-L51 has been absent (thus far).

3. Given that Olalde had the following to say about non-Iberian Bell Beaker samples:


Given the need for a GAC/TRB type population and the good fit for Latvia_HG which were at least on the R1b-M73 branch, it could be that R-L51 made the journey via the northern Carpathian Mountains shown in Harrison and Heyd's map below:

rms2
11-21-2017, 06:15 PM
As MitchellSince1893 pointed out awhile back, one route over the north end of the Carpathians is to follow the Tisza River itself from its headwaters in Ukraine down the river southwest into Hungary. I made a couple of maps showing the route clearly, but I'm not at home right now and don't have access to my home computer.

I believe it was Svitlana Ivanova who pointed out that the Pechenegs and the Cumans followed the same route from the steppe down into Hungary in the historical period, so it's a natural route. Like I said, I'm not at home, so I can't check my notes, but I believe it was Ivanova who wrote about the Budzhak branch of Yamnaya who made that trek to the Tisza Valley. They came originally from the NW coast of the Black Sea, which was old Mikhailovka/Kemi Oba territory. Mikhailovka/Kemi Oba had burial rites a lot like Bell Beaker.

kinman
11-21-2017, 06:45 PM
I just wonder if Ivanova proposed the Budzhak branch making that trek to the Tisza Valley only based on those later historical migrations (and it being a shorter route). The following map seems to show Budzhak Culture extending all the way to southern Poland (which would fit well with the longer route to the Amber Road and then south):

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/df/a5/bfdfa5eee8b7af94bef94e6637a76ada.png



As MitchellSince1893 pointed out awhile back, one route over the north end of the Carpathians is to follow the Tisza River itself from its headwaters in Ukraine down the river southwest into Hungary. I made a couple of maps showing the route clearly, but I'm not at home right now and don't have access to my home computer.

I believe it was Svitlana Ivanova who pointed out that the Pechenegs and the Cumans followed the same route from the steppe down into Hungary in the historical period, so it's a natural route. Like I said, I'm not at home, so I can't check my notes, but I believe it was Ivanova who wrote about the Budzhak branch of Yamnaya who made that trek to the Tisza Valley. They came originally from the NW coast of the Black Sea, which was old Mikhailovka/Kemi Oba territory. Mikhailovka/Kemi Oba had burial rites a lot like Bell Beaker.

Gravetto-Danubian
11-21-2017, 08:19 PM
This looks like an nmonte output, what columns are you using and what is the distance? It seems really strange that much Latvia_HG and so little Yamnaya.

Dist = 0.001
I suspect the high Latvia could be due to the need for something extra WHG. It could be either western Yamnaya itself, or a the MNE group into which it admixed had even more HG admixture than the samples we currently have. Also, the steppe migrants had probably 2 or 3 admixture events by the time they reached Germany, so a ~ 30% shouldn;t be deemed that much of an underestimate.

MitchellSince1893
11-21-2017, 08:30 PM
I just wonder if Ivanova proposed the Budzhak branch making that trek to the Tisza Valley only based on those later historical migrations (and it being a shorter route). The following map seems to show Budzhak Culture extending all the way to southern Poland (which would fit well with the longer route to the Amber Road and then south):

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/df/a5/bfdfa5eee8b7af94bef94e6637a76ada.png

That's my map. It's not showing Budzhak in southern Poland. It's showing the area bounded by a certain type of arrowheads had been found with Budzhak territory located approximately near the middle of this bounded area.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266234&viewfull=1#post266234

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266451&viewfull=1#post266451

razyn
11-21-2017, 08:58 PM
As MitchellSince1893 pointed out awhile back, one route over the north end of the Carpathians is to follow the Tisza River itself from its headwaters in Ukraine down the river southwest into Hungary. I made a couple of maps showing the route clearly, but I'm not at home right now and don't have access to my home computer.
You posted it here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11766-Poll-Bell-Beaker-Models&p=284834&viewfull=1#post284834

kinman
11-21-2017, 10:07 PM
I would say that one good way for those arrowheads to have gotten to Poland would be for L51 (P312 and U106 in particular?) to have carried that particular arrowhead type with them. Perhaps U152 originated along the way, which might explain its diversity in the area. I remember reading that STR variance in U152 is also quite high in Slovakia (which is just to the south of Poland), including Bratislava.

And it looks like some of those localities in Poland might not be too far from the Amber Road.


That's my map. It's not showing Budzhak in southern Poland. It's showing the area bounded by a certain type of arrowheads had been found with Budzhak territory located approximately near the middle of this bounded area.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266234&viewfull=1#post266234

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266451&viewfull=1#post266451

rms2
11-22-2017, 02:24 AM
I just wonder if Ivanova proposed the Budzhak branch making that trek to the Tisza Valley only based on those later historical migrations (and it being a shorter route) . . .

She couples the archaeology with the historical record.

From Svitlana Ivanova, Baltic-Pontic Studies vol. 18: 2013, 86-120 PL ISSN 1231-0344, Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture, page 111:



Włodarczak reconstructed the Danube way of westward migration of the Yamnaya tribes [Włodarczak 2010] . The routes of migration to Alfeld could be restored based on archaeological finds with the use of written sources and historic data from later epochs, e .g ., about the migration of Medieval nomads to Pannonia . Pechenegs and Cumans mastered three ways from the southern Rus steppes to the central European Plain, to Hungary: the first, through the Iron Gates; the second, through the southern Carpathians in the headwaters of the Olt, Mures and Szomes rivers; the third, from the Upper Siret and Prut rivers to the Tisza [Rasovskiy 1993: 3].

Ibid, page 113:



The authors believe that the Dniester way linked the population of the late Eneolithic – Early Bronze Age of the North-Western Pontic Region not only with the Sokal ridge or Malopolska, where the pottery complex of the Zlota culture contained vessels comparable with the pottery of the Usatovo type [Włodarczak 2008: 520] . Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig . 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).

rms2
11-22-2017, 02:37 AM
If I had much money (which I don't) and was a betting man (which I am not), I would place a wager on Budzhak (Bood Jacques) having some L51 (rubric for it and its descendants). Naturally, I could be wrong.

19907

rms2
11-22-2017, 02:59 AM
Here is something I have posted before comparing Bell Beaker beakers and Budzhak beakers.

19908

kinman
11-22-2017, 11:51 AM
I would agree that Budzhak probably has L51, perhaps a lot of it.

But I am not so sure about those kurgan burials east of the Tisza River. Some day we'll know one way or the other, but it's fun to speculate while we are waiting for genetic testing (which I am hoping has already begun).

And I agree with Ivanova on the westward migration "across Malopolska". On the following map, notice how the five most eastern areas of Bell Beaker start north of the Carpathians and then go west and south, sort of curling around the western end of the Carpathians:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg/400px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.png



If I had much money (which I don't) and was a betting man (which I am not), I would place a wager on Budzhak (Bood Jacques) having some L51 (rubric for it and its descendants). Naturally, I could be wrong.

19907

MitchellSince1893
11-22-2017, 01:06 PM
She couples the archaeology with the historical record.

From Svitlana Ivanova, Baltic-Pontic Studies vol. 18: 2013, 86-120 PL ISSN 1231-0344, Connections Between the Budzhak Culture and Central European Groups of the Corded Ware Culture, page 111:



Ibid, page 113:

Here's a previous post I had with associated map showing

If Budzhak was a reservoir of P312 subclades a few branches down, you could have a situation were multi subclade groups were taking more than one route into Central Europe at multiple times, complicating our efforts to make this a simple to follow story.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11766-Poll-Bell-Beaker-Models&p=279293&viewfull=1#post279293

I would edit that post to say L151 instead of P312 as it could be that P312 formed in the eastern Carpathian Basin near the Tisa River after L151's arrival.

Maybe U106 formed east of Carpathians and P312 West of...e.g. one son of L151 having a U106 descendant went Northwest from his homeland, while another son who went West had a P312 descendant.

Another possibility is L151 descendants all originated among the Kurgans mainly to the east of the Tisza in the Carpathian Basin, with U106 moving North from there.

Or as I originally posted, L151 subclades may have all formed in the east and arrived via multiple routes in multiple waves.

kinman
11-22-2017, 04:39 PM
I agree that it could have been a complicated mess of multiple waves that will take decades to document and sort out. I'm hoping it will not be that complicated. Perhaps something as simple as P312 and U106 arriving at the early Amber Road together. If they were traders (or then became traders), the U106 clan could have traded north along the Amber Road, and the P312 clan could have traded south along the same road down to the Danube. If so, that could help explain why they became so successful.

Of course, that would not preclude some of their relatives having earlier crossed the Carpathians at places like the Tisza River. That is why I am so anxious to know when something might be published on the male haplogroups of those burials east of the Tisza River.



Here's a previous post I had with associated map showing

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11766-Poll-Bell-Beaker-Models&p=279293&viewfull=1#post279293

I would edit that post to say L151 instead of P312 as it could be that P312 formed in the eastern Carpathian Basin near the Tisa River after L151's arrival.

Maybe U106 formed east of Carpathians and P312 West of...e.g. one son of L151 having a U106 descendant went Northwest from his homeland, while another son who went West had a P312 descendant.

Another possibility is L151 descendants all originated among the Kurgans mainly to the east of the Tisza in the Carpathian Basin, with U106 moving North from there.

Or as I originally posted, L151 subclades may have all formed in the east and arrived via multiple routes in multiple waves.

Kale
11-22-2017, 07:32 PM
Dist = 0.001
I suspect the high Latvia could be due to the need for something extra WHG. It could be either western Yamnaya itself, or a the MNE group into which it admixed had even more HG admixture than the samples we currently have. Also, the steppe migrants had probably 2 or 3 admixture events by the time they reached Germany, so a ~ 30% shouldn;t be deemed that much of an underestimate.

Well great, you showed distance, but not columns, I.E. the more important part.

rms2
11-22-2017, 08:48 PM
I'm sure you all recall that Olalde et al concluded that the Neolithic farmer component in non-Iberian Bell Beaker was most like a combination of Globular Amphora and TRB (Funnel Beaker). Well, the paper, Genome diversity in the Neolithic Globular Amphorae culture and the spread of Indo-European languages (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1867/20171540), is out, and it sure sounds like GAC contributed a lot to the mtDNA side of Bell Beaker:



To formally test the Steppe migration hypothesis, we selected a subset of the mtDNA data including the nine GAC individuals and 56 samples from five populations (see electronic supplementary material, table S7; the complete dataset is in electronic supplementary material, table S6, and the correspondence median network in electronic supplementary material, figure S11), and we ran some preliminary analyses on it. In the neighbour joining (NJ) tree inferred from the ϕST pairwise distances estimated for this subset, the Early Bronze Age people, represented by the Srubnaya culture, appear connected with the eastern Corded Ware peoples, and also close to the Yamna. The GAC samples are clearly separated from those populations, and show instead a closer relationship with the western, Late Neolithic, Bell Beaker population (electronic supplementary material, figure S12).



In short, simulation-based tests on mtDNA variation do not suggest that the GAC people of this study have special links with migrants from the Pontic steppes, but show a direct connection between the Yamna and later Central Europe cultures (Corded Ware and Bell beaker), who derived almost half of their mitochondrial variation from them.


The first quote says there is a mtDNA connection between GAC and BB, while the second quote is less clear and seems to be saying CW and BB drew almost half of their mtDNA from Yamnaya.

rms2
11-22-2017, 09:32 PM
If Budzhak people crossed the northern slopes of the Carpathians to get into Central Europe, whether via Malopolska or the Tisza River valley, they had to traverse GAC territory. Maybe we're talking mostly younger sons looking to carve out their own fortunes, who had no or few females to bring with them. They had to pick up brides among the natives. Thus the Neolithic farmer element in non-Iberian Bell Beaker and its resemblance to GAC.