PDA

View Full Version : Somewhat unusual results for my group



Dr_McNinja
08-27-2013, 04:11 PM
My family is Pakistani/Punjabi. Paternal haplogroup is J2b2* and maternal is M30b. I ran a mtDNA Haplogroup Analysis (http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/) (results: here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/163486234/mtDNA)) and it said M30b is the best fit, even though there's a bunch of extra markers and it doesn't have all the M30b markers.

I uploaded my 23andMe raw data to gedmatch, then did an Admixture test using Dodecad K12b and here are the results:


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh @ 8.238
2 Kshatriya @ 11.197
3 Meena @ 12.275
4 Cochin_Jews @ 12.895
5 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu @ 12.962
6 Indian @ 13.822
7 Jatt @ 14.540
8 Iyer @ 15.661
9 Iyengar @ 16.143
10 Lambadi @ 17.807
223 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Pathan +50% Tharus @ 4.182
2 50% Lambadi +50% Pathan @ 4.516
3 50% Bengali +50% Pathan @ 4.754
4 50% Muslim +50% Pathan @ 5.180
5 50% Dharkars +50% Pathan @ 5.182
6 50% Kurmi +50% Pathan @ 5.214
7 50% Kanjars +50% Pathan @ 5.512
8 50% Meghawal +50% Pathan @ 5.876
9 50% Piramalai_Kallars +50% Tajiks @ 6.043
10 50% Kurumba +50% Tajiks @ 6.141
24976 iterations.



Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Pathan +25% Jatt +25% MALAYAN @ 2.256
2 50% Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh +25% Bnei_Menashe_Jews +25% Jatt @ 2.647
3 50% Kshatriya +25% Iyengar +25% Turkmens @ 2.982
4 50% Pathan +25% MALAYAN +25% Pathan @ 2.998
5 50% Kshatriya +25% Lambadi +25% Tajiks @ 3.028
6 50% Kshatriya +25% Kshatriya +25% Turkmens @ 3.056
7 50% Iyengar +25% Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh +25% Turkmens @ 3.105
8 50% Kshatriya +25% Tajiks +25% Tharus @ 3.206
9 50% Kshatriya +25% Dharkars +25% Turkmens @ 3.287
10 50% Kshatriya +25% Meghawal +25% Tajiks @ 3.305
779693 iterations.



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Jatt + MALAYAN + Pathan + Pathan @ 2.256
2 Bnei_Menashe_Jews + Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh + Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh + Jatt @ 2.647
3 Dharkars + Kol + Pathan + Tajiks @ 2.856
4 Bnei_Menashe_Jews + Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh + Jatt + Kshatriya @ 2.863
5 Jatt + Meena + North_Kannadi + Tajiks @ 2.942
6 Chamar + Iyengar + Pathan + Tajiks @ 2.943
7 Kshatriya + North_Kannadi + Pathan + Tajiks @ 2.956
8 Meena + North_Kannadi + Pathan + Tajiks @ 2.958
9 Iyengar + Kshatriya + Kshatriya + Turkmens @ 2.982
10 MALAYAN + Pathan + Pathan + Pathan @ 2.998
11 Kol + Meghawal + Pathan + Tajiks @ 3.010
12 Kshatriya + Kshatriya + Lambadi + Tajiks @ 3.028
13 Iyengar + Pathan + SAKILLI + Tajiks @ 3.043
14 Kshatriya + Pathan + SAKILLI + Tajiks @ 3.045
15 Kshatriya + Kshatriya + Kshatriya + Turkmens @ 3.056
16 Chamar + Kshatriya + Pathan + Tajiks @ 3.095
17 Jatt + Kshatriya + SAKILLI + Tajiks @ 3.099
18 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh + Iyengar + Iyengar + Turkmens @ 3.105
19 Kanjars + Kol + Pathan + Tajiks @ 3.121
20 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh + Dharkars + Kshatriya + Turkmens @ 3.133Is it just me or are none of those results in a close distance? The other results I've seen from people are below 1.0, mine don't go below 2.2.

FWIW, my family is Punjabi Jatt and has been going back at least 200 years, probably longer. These results are a little off from typical Punjabi Jatt results.

Admix results:


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 39.11
2 Gedrosia 35.54
3 North_European 10.68
4 Caucasus 8.27
5 Siberian 2.57
6 Atlantic_Med 2.51
7 Southwest_Asian 1.33

When I used HarappaWorld, these were my results:


S-Indian 37%
Baloch 35%
Caucasian 11%
NE Euro 10%
Siberian 2%
Beringian 2%
Papuan, American, Mediterranean, SW Asian all 1%

(These numbers are rounded, pasted from a spreadsheet)

So compared to other Jatts, my S-Indian is 10% higher and Baloch 10% lower, Siberian is... present (whereas they usually have 0%, a few have 1%).

My Ancestry Composition at 23andMe is not done yet so I'm waiting on that, but the Global Similarity Map put me inbetween Burusho and Pathan, closer to Burusho.

Then I tried Stanford's Interpretome. Using Reference Populations, 100k SNPs, and PC1 vs PC2, I wound up in the middle of nowhere, a triangle formed by South Asian, Middle Eastern, and Northeast/West European. So then I did it with HGDP: Asian set to Detailed Regional and I wind up on the tip of Burusho across from Pathan (why do they use Burusho, Pathan, Sindhi, Baloch, etc as reference populations but not different Punjabi groups of which there are over 100 million in the region?).

When I saw my Admixture results in HarappaWorld, I noticed a few patterns. A ~10% Caucasian admixture usually pinned a group to the area of Punjab. There was a correlation between S-Indian and NE-Euro which was present in some northern populations but also curiously in Southern/Eastern Indians (similar to the spread of Jb2b* on a heatmap). That correlation led me to think that those were not good for geographical/ethnic identifying because that contribution was so widespread. The other was a correlation between S-Indian and Baloch. A higher S-Indian and lower Baloch was more common the further the populations got from Balochistan. My Baloch numbers put me around populations in India, but those populations were several percentage points off the Caucasian admixture. So I could not pin down one group which was characterized by increased distance from Baloch, decreased from S-Indian, but maintaining NE-Euro and Caucasian numbers on par with other Punjabis/Jatts. I guessed that this could be either a Brahmin contribution or a Brahmin lineage, possibly from further north (i.e, Pahari/Potwari peoples of Pakistan who speak Western Punjabi dialects or northern Indian Brahmin groups, perhaps even Kashmiri or Nepali). This was before I noticed the Burusho group on the Global Similarity Map and the Interpretome. So I looked them up and that kind of group would fit the bill as the mystery origin/contribution to an otherwise typical Punjabi admixture. But the Burusho are just their reference population, so I suppose it could be any similar group. The 4-population results aren't even bringing in Burusho but seem to stubbornly maintain a link to South India (the M30b marker which my mom's MtDNA was closest to has been found in Tamil populations, could be from her side). I'm thinking there is still this missing group who are cousins of Brahmins in South/East India along the J Y-DNA and M mtDNA haplogroups but who have stayed in Punjab and is being picked up as a recent South Indian population in the admixture results because that's where the only close reference populations are from.

For reference, all four of my grandparents were from the same area in Punjab (well 3 were, the fourth, my paternal grandfather who was a Gill Jatt, migrated from Ludhiana). And there was intermarriage, so my great grandparents and maybe even great great grandparents are all still interlinked. My father's mother was cousins with my mother's father. My mother's mother's father was related to my mother's father's father, etc. And at the generation of my great great grandparents and earlier, there are indications from my last remaining grandparent that they were still all Punjabi and even Sikh (they converted to Islam around then or something... perhaps even for the sole purpose of intermarrying within the family's cousins, a practice frowned upon in Sikhism but permissible in Islam). So there's no recent contribution from outside of Punjab, whatever this 10% swing in S-Indian/Baloch or my mystery South Indian lineage is, it's not new, it's at least a few centuries old (which could suggest that instead of being a source, it's more like a distant relation which was preserved in minorities in Punjab).

But, yeah, I got nothing else. Any ideas?

Dr_McNinja
08-27-2013, 09:19 PM
Here's the DIYDodecadWin run by chromosome which sheds some light on the 4-population matches:


Chr #SNPS S-Indn Baloch Caucasn NE-Euro SE-Asn Sibrn NE-Asn Papuan Amercn Berngn Med SW-Asn San E-African Pygmy W-African
1 14964 35.05 35.78 11.81 11.93 0.00 0.00 4.55 0.00 0.02 0.84 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
2 14946 35.78 39.57 8.10 8.75 0.74 0.00 0.82 1.31 0.01 4.91 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
3 12630 43.69 39.36 0.00 13.03 0.00 2.75 0.00 1.13 0.00 0.00 0.03 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
4 10988 36.57 41.67 1.31 6.87 0.01 0.63 0.00 2.41 0.57 0.00 3.20 6.77 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
5 11457 31.78 30.75 19.06 5.58 0.00 0.56 0.00 0.00 1.23 2.72 8.31 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
6 12223 38.79 40.52 7.30 2.59 0.71 0.00 0.96 1.67 3.70 0.01 3.75 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
7 10200 20.91 35.58 15.65 14.28 3.85 0.08 0.00 1.15 2.58 1.79 0.00 4.13 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
8 10504 41.59 28.51 8.92 11.43 0.27 5.74 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.33 0.00 0.00 0.00 2.21
9 9265 34.93 26.26 5.65 10.01 0.00 2.24 0.00 3.67 4.90 2.96 4.34 5.05 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
10 10207 34.18 32.94 17.94 6.96 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.79 5.25 0.01 0.00 1.93 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
11 9246 34.69 39.57 11.87 5.58 0.00 2.03 0.00 0.19 0.00 3.72 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.70 0.64 0.01
12 9268 47.40 33.13 0.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.95 0.32 5.58 5.17 7.44 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
13 7058 42.56 32.05 1.34 0.98 0.00 1.95 0.00 2.34 3.26 1.34 0.01 12.49 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.67
14 6416 30.16 26.45 14.00 13.92 4.59 3.20 0.02 0.00 3.26 0.97 0.02 0.00 0.00 0.00 3.42 0.00
15 5950 27.57 22.27 14.27 17.47 0.00 0.00 0.00 3.02 0.00 0.00 10.85 4.56 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
16 6186 35.73 37.36 14.58 10.03 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.01 1.37 0.92 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
17 5439 30.23 35.34 20.64 0.00 1.93 4.94 0.00 1.65 0.09 0.04 5.13 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
18 5980 42.19 35.17 4.32 5.73 4.53 1.34 0.01 0.00 0.00 3.19 0.00 3.52 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
19 3833 36.79 24.66 1.88 20.73 2.58 3.19 0.00 0.00 3.85 2.24 0.00 0.19 0.54 0.19 3.17 0.00
20 5279 26.01 29.63 15.05 18.46 0.01 1.11 1.69 3.01 0.00 0.00 0.00 3.95 0.00 0.05 0.74 0.29
21 3027 44.37 25.16 0.00 1.24 0.04 0.00 0.00 0.00 1.19 0.00 22.11 2.57 2.85 0.00 0.46 0.00
22 3107 37.69 26.38 0.01 24.05 0.00 0.00 0.00 3.55 0.00 0.00 5.69 0.00 2.61 0.00 0.01 0.00
Chromosomes 7, 14, 15, 26 seem to resemble Pathan admixture. 1 and 2 seem to parallel my overall results (not surprising). 3, 8, 9, 19, 22 seem to resemble Brahmin with a substantially higher Northern European component. 5, maybe 10, and 17, seem to vaguely resemble some kind of south Central Asian (i.e, Tajikstan) because they're Caucasian heavy but still have a heavy dose of South Indian.

So even this is probably not enough and I'd need to do a 'byseg' run I think. But that data is so long I'm not sure what to do with it. It would take forever to identify different regions and peg what's going where, and I don't know much about that.

I think the basic issue is that the "South Indian" component itself isn't well developed. Burusho doesn't show on the admixture runs but I'm virtually on top of it in the graphs which makes me wonder if some of these regions corresponding to "South Indian" are also common among them.

Not sure if this is the right way to look at it, but perhaps 10% higher South Indian and 10% lower Baloch corresponds to a geographical shift along the coast from Balochistan over to the coast of Sindh? But Sindhi was further off than Burusho, Pathan, and Baloch in the graphs. That said, the current day residents of Sindh were not the historical residents. So if "Sindhi" doesn't match, that could be because today's Sindhis are out of place in the pattern. In fact, the residents of Sindh in the 7th century when Islam came to Sindh were Buddhist Jatts. As the story goes, they mixed with the Arabs and formed the Punjabi Arain tribe. The Punjabi Arain have a higher Baloch admixture than other nearby groups in HarappaWorld's database.

Since there's no label for Southwest India, I'm beginning to wonder if that's what it really corresponds to (like averaging out). In fact, all my matches from South India are from coastal provinces. This might be why I turned up with Gujarat in some of the other admixture calculators. What could correspond to a ring around India but not in the middle? North, South, and East.

The Balham Jatt clan that my maternal grandmother belongs to is said to originally be from Multan which is further south than the rest. I wonder if that clan didn't spend a lot of time in the general southwest of the subcontinent or along that coast. The mtDNA matches (not too well though) with M30b which is closest to Tamil ancestors in the reference tables. So maybe it's meant to average out to Sindh/Gujarat/Rajasthan, which is another J2b2 hotspot. Oh well that's another possible interpretation I guess.

It would be perfect if there were some program that would pick out each region of the chromosomes and then highlight on a map where in the world that specific sequence is common.

EDIT: I also ran the Eurogenes36 calculator which is pretty interesting: http://i.imgur.com/bUFxiNE.png

soulblighter
08-28-2013, 03:32 PM
Your results seem to indicate a closer affinity possibly to NW Gujarat/Rajasthan and Sindh. Aren't the Jatt migrations supposedly from from those areas?
How close are you to the Meghwal (Meghawal/Meghwar)?

Dr_McNinja
08-29-2013, 01:43 AM
Hi soulblighter. Yes, that is what I am thinking now, that some of the Jatt tribes I am from must have come from Rajasthan. I had a match for Meghwal in one of the other admixture calculators. It was something like Pathan + Meghwal + UP Brahmin + Tajik or something like that.

Gills actually say they are descended from Rajputs in Rajasthan so. And Balham are from Multan which is also southern Punjab.

parasar
08-29-2013, 03:02 AM
Hi soulblighter. Yes, that is what I am thinking now, that some of the Jatt tribes I am from must have come from Rajasthan. I had a match for Meghwal in one of the other admixture calculators. It was something like Pathan + Meghwal + UP Brahmin + Tajik or something like that.

Gills actually say they are descended from Rajputs in Rajasthan so. And Balham are from Multan which is also southern Punjab.

Unfortunately so many tales have been told, and partly accepted by Jats, that it is difficult to discern the truth. Jats are agriculturists pretty much like us (brahman). It is the genetic signature of the agriculturist that survives in the Jats, not some fancy Rajput, Macedonian, or Central Asian invader.

Prior to the British period there were no Central Asian stories. In fact, early English public officials note:

[Jats] except in one case, ... maintain that their Rajput ancestors came from Malwa\Bikanir, and Dharanagar … None of the clans have, or, at any rate, will admit having, any traditions of their having come from the northwest ... [the one exception] The Malik Jats indeed, do profess to have come from Ghar Ghazni, but they maintain stoutly that this was in the Deccan—that delightful geographical generality,—and Sir Henry Elliott would seem to have laid too much stress perhaps on this isolated name in his treatment of the Jats in his Glossary. In spite, however, of their uniform and persistent statements on the subject, it seems impossible, in the light of modern information, to accept their traditions as true … The Malik Jats claim to be descended from Siroha Rajputs, and to have come from Ghar Ghazni in the Deccan. Their real name is Gatwal, but they received the nickname of Malik from one Rai Sal, a Malik or ruler of his time. The Maliks of Khanpur Kalan, and the Paniput tahsil, still call themselves Siroha Jats. Where Ghar Ghazni was, exactly, they are unable to say. http://books.google.com/books?id=dpsIAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA91

Another thing we know for certain is that the Jats preceded the Rajputs as far these respective designations/monikers are concerned. So why were these Jats claiming to the British to be Rajputs (while as the British period rolled along the Jats gained Central Asian associations)? The answer is the Mughals. During the Mughal period the Rajput moniker was the most prestigious for a non-Brahman 'Hindu.'

But who were these Rajputs? Sure some of them were ruling clans from the south such as the Rathores and Solankis, but others were Brahmans and Vaisyas, some others were chieftains who fled the UP area an took refuge in deserts and remote hills, and a few were promoted from the tribes.

As far as Gills are concerned, they also professes a Maithil association:


The Gil is one of the largest and more important of the Jat tribes. Their headquarters are in Lahore and Ferozepore, but they are found all along the Beas and Upper Sutlej, and under the hills as far to the west as Sialkot. Gil, their ancestor, was a Jat of Raghubansi Rajput descent, who settled in Ferozepore and claimed to be descended from Pirthi Pal, Raja of Mithila or Behar, and a Waria Rajput by a Bhutar Jatni wife. ... The tribe is divided into 12 muhins known as Asl-Gil, Gil-Gil, Sher-Gil, Vairsi-Gil, WadanGil, Sudr-Gil, Kalingar-Gil, Nijjar-Gil, Jhulli-Gil, etc.http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA34

Dr_McNinja
08-29-2013, 04:02 AM
Yeah, I'm aware of all that history. But that just shows the Rajputs were the established Kshatriya and the Jatts were not. The British actually described the Jatts as very anti-caste and kind of skeptical of both the Brahmins and Kshatriya. They got into fights (in recent times no less) even violent ones with Rajputs who were angry the British were calling the Jatts "Indo-Scythians" so they tried to reject claims of Jatt Kshatriya status. Kind of sad and funny, both jealous of each other over silly things. Nonetheless, despite being essentially a "non-servile peasant class", the Jatts do have genetic resemblance to all the upper castes (Kshatriya and Brahmin, or at least Jatts like me), and have a unique signature in India which is the high % of NE-Euro (the Haryana Jats were in the high teens, some hitting 20% which is unheard of in the rest of the region, NE-Euro is relatively absent from the Afghans and other Central Asian groups to the Northwest). All adds up to a confusing question mark as to their origins though I think they were the closest thing we have for indigenous people of what is now Pakistan and Northwestern India (Sindh was populated by Jatts, and Jatts even claim Baloch have ancestry from Jatts/Rajputs).

As for Rajputs, because of their relatively unquestioned higher caste status I'm inclined to believe they were here longer than the Jatts even if their name was new. The fact that the Rajputs and the Jatt clans who come from Rajputs have more South Indian could be due to just having been here longer.

I think some of the Jatts went into Rajasthan, Gujarat, etc after the Arabs took Sindh, so they set up there, and then moved back into the Punjab. The Sandhus/Sindhus history says that they stopped the Arab advance at the border of Sindh/Gujarat and even fought naval battles against them. They're one of the most numerous clans in Pakistan and Sindh.

So what it sounds like is these tribes moved into India maybe 1500-2000 years ago and stayed on the Northwest and then married into higher castes just for the political advantages and then some of them retained their ethnic homogeneity through endogamy after having acquired the desirable lineages. The Baloch for example may or may not have descent from Rajput royalty in the region but it matters not because their ethnic composition is more Iranian than Indian. But getting the bragging rights of having some link to a noble/royal or high caste was a strong desire for many back then. I think Rajput is just a new name for old people (perhaps the older waves of Indo-Aryans) who were basically like Jatts who weren't afraid to try and assimilate more. The lesser assimilation from Jatts might explain their higher %s of NE-Euro too. One of the things the British wrote the Jatts didn't like about the higher castes is that they were corrupt and this might be because some of them basically took up life as "Rajput" royalty and shirked their "priestly" duties. Whenever a Jatt got decided it wanted in on the wealth and power, they'd marry into Rajputs or declare themselves Rajputs I imagine.

Discussion of Jatt genetics here:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved/ (Check comments too)

My NE-Euro is still higher than the other Northwestern populations but a little lower than the other Jatt Sikhs who seem to be concentrated in Central-North Punjab (i.e, Majha), so I'm guessing that's due to a closer link to the ones from the southwest with maybe a clan or two from the north throwing my results a little off (and boosting the Caucasian higher than the other Southwestern Jatts/Rajputs and Brahmins). It all averages out to like northern Indian Punjab (not surprising since I'm 1/4 Pansota from Hoshiarpur) because my numbers are like UP Brahmins but with higher Caucasian admixture (so Jatts inbetween Punjab and UP?). Whatever the case, there was definitely less endogamy on my side since it's from both the North and South, and fewer from Central.

EDIT: J2b2* is also, I'm beginning to believe, an older lineage from within India than the newer R1a, which might make it more common among some of these southwestern Jatts than the northern Jatts (but overall it's rare, the R1s dominate).

Dr_McNinja
08-29-2013, 04:37 AM
And in the newer Harappa additions which include more Punjabi Jatt Muslims (myself included) it seems the Jatt Muslims have higher Caucasian and lower NE-Euro which could be due to more endogamy/isolation for the Sikhs. The Punjabi Jatt Sikhs and the UP Brahmins are very close, the Jatts have higher Baloch (Indo-Iranian), the Brahmins have higher South Indian (corresponding to geographic spread). The additional Caucasian among the Pakistanis/Muslims could be from Pathan admixture (in fact, it probably is, after the end of the Anglo-Sikh wars when the British defeated the Sikh Empire, thousands of Afghan tribes who were living in Punjab fled back into Afghanistan, it was effectively the first partition of Punjab).

So if I try to eyeball another admixture comparison what seems to make sense is recent Jatt Sikhs (my great-great-great-great grandfathers had to be Sikh if 23andMe is right and my 5th cousins are Sikh Jatts, and my family's stories are right) mixing with older Muslim Jatt clans which had slightly higher Caucasian.... Except for once again my high South Indian. Maybe there's just a bunch of Jatt Sikhs out there who aren't well represented yet online who are very close to UP Brahmins (my 5th cousins are from the Matharu got who are also called Tarkhan or Ramgarhia and there's one Punjabi Ramgarhia who has high South Indian (~35% pretty much at mine) but low Caucasian and high Baloch. So if they mix that with someone high in Caucasian and low in Baloch, that would be a lot closer to me than any other mix so far. But who is high in Caucasian and low in Baloch? Muslims from UP. But there's just no room for them in my family tree. There are, however, some Punjabis (a Punjabi Jatt and a "Pakistani Punjabi") who have higher Caucasian (~15-16%) and lower Baloch (~35%) mixing one of those as yet nameless clans with a Jatt Sikh from near UP, like a Matharu Tarkhan/Ramgarhia/whatever, would be the closest I can get. Since Pansotas are from Hoshiarpur they might just be related to Matharu/Tarkhan/Ramgarhia anyway since I know my ancestry up to my great great grandfather who was a Pansota and I know the Sikhs were one or two generations up.

Dr_McNinja
08-29-2013, 04:53 AM
The newest addition to the Harappa database has similar numbers to mine but is unidentified/private:

S-Indian 35.1%
Baloch 33.1%
Caucasian 11.6%
NE-Euro 7.5%

The HarappaWorld calculations done by Zack for me are slightly different from the ones I got in the calculator, my numbers there:

S-Indian 34.9%
Baloch 33.5%
Caucasian 10.7%
NE-Euro 8.4%

(all the numbers in these 4 groups are lower than what I got with the DIY and GEDmatch Harappa calculators, the differences seem to have gone to the exotic groups with Papuan, American, etc getting boosted by 1-2% each... which is odd, makes it seem like the free DIY calculator online has a more conservative algorithm)

I'm willing to bet this is a Punjabi, possibly Pakistani judging by the Caucasian/NE-Euro ratio. No idea whether they're of a clan with a similar heritage or just a similar mix of clans like me.

BMG
08-29-2013, 02:18 PM
The newest addition to the Harappa database has similar numbers to mine but is unidentified/private:

(all the numbers in these 4 groups are lower than what I got with the DIY and GEDmatch Harappa calculators, the differences seem to have gone to the exotic groups with Papuan, American, etc getting boosted by 1-2% each... which is odd, makes it seem like the free DIY calculator online has a more conservative algorithm)



In my case too i got lower values in zack's run than in gedmatch calculator and the exotic compnents shooted by 1-2% . i have asked zack about it and he replied that is due to difference in initial seed and termination conditions in the two runs

parasar
08-29-2013, 10:01 PM
... But that just shows the Rajputs were the established Kshatriya and the Jatts were not ...
As for Rajputs, because of their relatively unquestioned higher caste status I'm inclined to believe they were here longer than the Jatts even if their name was new. The fact that the Rajputs and the Jatt clans who come from Rajputs have more South Indian could be due to just having been here longer.

I think some of the Jatts went into Rajasthan, Gujarat, etc after the Arabs took Sindh, so they set up there, and then moved back into the Punjab. The Sandhus/Sindhus history says that they stopped the Arab advance at the border of Sindh/Gujarat and even fought naval battles against them. They're one of the most numerous clans in Pakistan and Sindh.

...


EDIT: J2b2* is also, I'm beginning to believe, an older lineage from within India than the newer R1a, which might make it more common among some of these southwestern Jatts than the northern Jatts (but overall it's rare, the R1s dominate).

I doubt that the the bulk of Rajputs were established Kshatriyas. The remnant Kshatriyas are Khatris and are now mainly mercantile Hindus and Jains.
The Rajputs are remnants of the southern Indian dominant clans such as the Rashtrakutas and Chalukyas who mixed with their western Indian counterparts such as the Pratihars and Chauhans.

Jats are mentioned quite early, much earlier than the Rajputs.

Where did you read the Sandhu account - since it looks to be absolutely spot on?
Thanks.

Dr_McNinja
09-05-2013, 09:10 PM
I doubt that the the bulk of Rajputs were established Kshatriyas. The remnant Kshatriyas are Khatris and are now mainly mercantile Hindus and Jains.
The Rajputs are remnants of the southern Indian dominant clans such as the Rashtrakutas and Chalukyas who mixed with their western Indian counterparts such as the Pratihars and Chauhans.

Jats are mentioned quite early, much earlier than the Rajputs.

Where did you read the Sandhu account - since it looks to be absolutely spot on?
Thanks.Yeah the more popular theory of origin for the Rajputs are Hephthalites from the middle of the first millennium AD.

I think I read it on one of those sites with the long listing of all the Jatt tribes/gotras (and why is 'jat' interchangeable in meaning with 'got' in India? Got->gotra, but 'jat' itself means caste/sub-caste (i.e, 'what jat are you')). The Sandhu one sounded like it matched up really well to the history of the region.

toast
09-05-2013, 09:12 PM
Nonetheless, despite being essentially a "non-servile peasant class", the Jatts do have genetic resemblance to all the upper castes (Kshatriya and Brahmin, or at least Jatts like me), and have a unique signature in India which is the high % of NE-Euro (the Haryana Jats were in the high teens, some hitting 20% which is unheard of in the rest of the region, NE-Euro is relatively absent from the Afghans and other Central Asian groups to the Northwest

NE-Euro is fairly well represented in Afghans and Central Asians incl. turkic speakers. Harappa Project group average statistics-

pathan hgdp - 11%
tajik yunusbayev - 17%
turkmen yunusbayev - 10%
uzbek behar - 14%

The signal decreases towards SW Asia-

iranian behar - 4%
assyrian harappa - 1%
iraqi arab harappa - 2%
iranian jew behar - 0%
lebanese behar - 3%
palestinian hgdp - 1%
syrian behar - 3%

source: HarappaWorld Admixture https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE#gid=0

Dr_McNinja
09-05-2013, 09:16 PM
I uploaded my 23andMe data to DNA Tribes, got this:

http://i.imgur.com/R93cRDk.png

http://i.imgur.com/8KrrcPg.png

The Netherlands was weirdly at 0.7038 and so higher than some of my matches to neighboring Indian populations.

I take it the triangle formed between Tamil Nadu, Gujarat, and Nepal/Uttar Pradesh border forms the boundary to the region from within which my ancestors possibly hailed. Pretty large area but I don't know how many Jatts were common there so I wish I knew more, sounds like an interesting story. More and more my genome looks like normal Jatt numbers but on a substrate that is more Indian than Baloch (thus the resemblance to Nepal even though J2b2* and M30b point south).

Dr_McNinja
09-05-2013, 09:17 PM
NE-Euro is fairly well represented in Afghans and Central Asians incl. turkic speakers. Harappa Project group average statistics-

pathan hgdp - 11%
tajik yunusbayev - 17%
turkmen yunusbayev - 10%
uzbek behar - 14%

The signal decreases towards SW Asia-

iranian behar - 4%
assyrian harappa - 1%
iraqi arab harappa - 2%
iranian jew behar - 0%
lebanese behar - 3%
palestinian hgdp - 1%
syrian behar - 3%

source: HarappaWorld Admixture https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE#gid=0By relatively I meant that the numbers for these groups do not exceed the Jatts but the Tajiks are curiously up there with Haryana Jatts. I suppose once we get into Central Asia it doesn't matter anymore, they're all bound to have significant quantities of it.

Dr_McNinja
09-16-2013, 05:01 AM
MDLP World-22 results:


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Indian 35.34
2 West-Asian 33.45
3 North-East-European 7.34
4 Indo-Iranian 7.21
5 Samoedic 3.12
6 Indo-Tibetan 2.76
7 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 1.83
8 North-European-Mesolithic 1.80
9 Near_East 1.49
10 Paleo-Siberian 1.43
11 Austronesian 1.37
12 North-Amerind 1.36
13 Melanesian 0.87
14 East-Siberean 0.65


I've been getting Siberian (and American Indian) in other calculators (Dodecad K12b Siberian = 2.55%, K7b = 3.03%, K12a = 2.69%, 10a = 3.14%, Globe13 Siberian = 3.14%, Harappa Siberian + Beringian = 3.38%, Eurogenes K13 North Eurasian = 1.66% and East Siberian = 2.39%, Eurogenes K12b Siberian = 3.69% and Finnish = 0.92%) and here got Samoyedic at 3.12%.

MDLP K27 Beta:


0.00% Nilotic-Omotic
38.96% Ancestral-South-Indi
7.04% North-European-Balti
1.79% Uralic
0.50% Australo-Melanesian
1.72% East-Siberean
0.00% Ancestral-Yayoi
5.75% Caucasian-Near-Easte
0.00% Tibeto-Burman
0.63% Austronesian
0.00% Central-African-Pygm
0.63% Central-African-Hunt
0.01% Nilo-Saharian
0.00% North-African
27.32% Gedrosia-Caucasian
0.00% Cushitic
0.04% Congo-Pygmean
0.00% Bushmen
1.35% South-Meso-Amerindia
1.68% South-West-European
0.24% North-Amerindian
2.61% Arabic
1.51% North-Circumpolar
4.29% Kalash
0.76% Papuan-Australian
2.62% Baltic-Finnic
0.55% Bantu This chart organizes it better and I pasted my numbers onto it:

http://i.imgur.com/XpPAsPb.png

Interestingly, there's a "Uralic" branch near South Indian. What is this? I always thought Uralic referred to languages (Finnish mostly) but Balto-Finnic is separate. So I assume this here is equivalent to "Samoyedic" from MDLP World-22... And the other Siberian is on the far right ("North Circumpolar", "East Siberian" and the American Indian ones).

Is this persistent Siberian result due to calculator effect? Noise? Another Punjabi Jatt user had set up a spreadsheet to compare results and I had higher Siberian than the averages for Jatts, Pathans, Sindhis, Brahmins, as well as him (he was higher than the averages too though). The exotic categories (Siberian, Amerindian, Beringian, etc) are also higher for me than most of the HarappaWorld spreadsheet (keeping in mind my higher than average South Indian % for someone from Punjab, so it's not like this is expected).

I thought perhaps these results pointing to ancestral north/northeast Asia might be a remnant of something Turkic-Mongolic (i.e, Altaic) since there isn't a separate component for that in here and they had a focused distribution in one direction (to the south and west) in pretty recent history. For some reason though the Turks and Mongols are just identified in terms of everyone else near them even though I imagine there must be some kind of "Altaic" component which spread with the language (and present, possibly, in Koreans and Japanese since Turks do have some NE-Asian showing up in these calculators). Otherwise the only route for these ancestral Asian admixture components to make it to me would be through whatever brought the Northern European component, but that hasn't carried through to others with even higher %s of that so I don't see how else it could have gotten here (into someone with 35-37% South Indian) except by Turkic-Mongolic peoples whose ancestral homeland was in Northeast Asia. That's my theory anyway.

Dr_McNinja
09-25-2013, 06:34 PM
Apparently my FTDNA Population Finder results came in two months early (it says Family Finder (transfer of 23andMe data) should be ready by end of November):

http://i.imgur.com/YfS7MH7.png

Not what I expected? Pretty different from 23andMe and DNA-Tribes (DNA Tribes said something like 92% South Asian, 7% European and 1% Sub-Saharan African).

parasar
09-25-2013, 09:15 PM
I've been getting Siberian (and American Indian) in other calculators (Dodecad K12b Siberian = 2.55%, K7b = 3.03%, K12a = 2.69%, 10a = 3.14%, Globe13 Siberian = 3.14%, Harappa Siberian + Beringian = 3.38%, Eurogenes K13 North Eurasian = 1.66% and East Siberian = 2.39%, Eurogenes K12b Siberian = 3.69% and Finnish = 0.92%) and here got Samoyedic at 3.12%.

...

Interestingly, there's a "Uralic" branch near South Indian. What is this? I always thought Uralic referred to languages (Finnish mostly) but Balto-Finnic is separate. So I assume this here is equivalent to "Samoyedic" from MDLP World-22... And the other Siberian is on the far right ("North Circumpolar", "East Siberian" and the American Indian ones).

Is this persistent Siberian result due to calculator effect? Noise? Another Punjabi Jatt user had set up a spreadsheet to compare results and I had higher Siberian than the averages for Jatts, Pathans, Sindhis, Brahmins, as well as him (he was higher than the averages too though). The exotic categories (Siberian, Amerindian, Beringian, etc) are also higher for me than most of the HarappaWorld spreadsheet (keeping in mind my higher than average South Indian % for someone from Punjab, so it's not like this is expected).

I thought perhaps these results pointing to ancestral north/northeast Asia might be a remnant of something Turkic-Mongolic (i.e, Altaic) since there isn't a separate component for that in here and they had a focused distribution in one direction (to the south and west) in pretty recent history. For some reason though the Turks and Mongols are just identified in terms of everyone else near them even though I imagine there must be some kind of "Altaic" component which spread with the language (and present, possibly, in Koreans and Japanese since Turks do have some NE-Asian showing up in these calculators). Otherwise the only route for these ancestral Asian admixture components to make it to me would be through whatever brought the Northern European component, but that hasn't carried through to others with even higher %s of that so I don't see how else it could have gotten here (into someone with 35-37% South Indian) except by Turkic-Mongolic peoples whose ancestral homeland was in Northeast Asia. That's my theory anyway.

Are any of your ancestors from the hill regions/terai or only from the plains? The former tend to show Inner and East Asiatic elements.
This may explain Uralic, Siberian, Finn, Tharu, etc. The historic Turko-Mongols had almost no influence on South Asia except among folk such as the Hazara. In eastern India, central Indian hill tribes, and in the Himalayan foothills it quite common to see East and Inner Asiatic features.

Dr_McNinja
09-26-2013, 01:31 AM
Are any of your ancestors from the hill regions/terai or only from the plains? The former tend to show Inner and East Asiatic elements.
This may explain Uralic, Siberian, Finn, Tharu, etc. The historic Turko-Mongols had almost no influence on South Asia except among folk such as the Hazara. In eastern India, central Indian hill tribes, and in the Himalayan foothills it quite common to see East and Inner Asiatic features.All Punjabi farmers going back 4 generations, no one from the north. Even in India I thought they'd be from Rajasthan/Gujarat or maybe further in and south because of the higher South Indian but obviously there must be something from north or east India, the Tharu match might indicate the exact region where all of that is coming from (as DNA-Tribes said, it's more like geographical signals, rather than actual ancestry, although there is a Tharu Rajput tribe out there on the Indian side). Must be pretty far back though.

It's a shame there isn't much data on populations from inner India.

It also could be a freak result of recombination? I alone among my family seem to have slightly more asian features (the eyes at least).

What are the South Indian admixture percentages like across the Himalayan foothills and East India?

parasar
09-26-2013, 03:13 PM
All Punjabi farmers going back 4 generations, no one from the north. Even in India I thought they'd be from Rajasthan/Gujarat or maybe further in and south because of the higher South Indian but obviously there must be something from north or east India, the Tharu match might indicate the exact region where all of that is coming from (as DNA-Tribes said, it's more like geographical signals, rather than actual ancestry, although there is a Tharu Rajput tribe out there on the Indian side). Must be pretty far back though.

It's a shame there isn't much data on populations from inner India.

It also could be a freak result of recombination? I alone among my family seem to have slightly more asian features (the eyes at least).

What are the South Indian admixture percentages like across the Himalayan foothills and East India?

I am from eastern India - HRP0003
Though the transition is more apparent just to the north of where I am from and just to the east and south. The Tharus (to the north), the Santhals (to the south) and Bengalis (to the east) show more 'Ancestral South Indian.'
http://www.harappadna.org/2011/04/reference-3-admixture-k11/

parasar
09-26-2013, 03:15 PM
HRP0003/DOD220

Dr_McNinja
09-26-2013, 08:13 PM
I am from eastern India - HRP0003
Though the transition is more apparent just to the north of where I am from and just to the east and south. The Tharus (to the north), the Santhals (to the south) and Bengalis (to the east) show more 'Ancestral South Indian.'
http://www.harappadna.org/2011/04/reference-3-admixture-k11/Yeah, Uttar Pradesh would seem right for 35-37% S-Indian like mine... But your Baloch in Harappa is still pretty high though, 38% while mine is 5% lower. Not sure what that could indicate.

Dr_McNinja
10-03-2013, 10:07 AM
23andMe's Gene Comparison with 4 individuals (I've sent invites to some Nepalese as well, waiting for response):

Genome-Wide:

Punjabi Jatt - 75.95%
South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 75.83%
Rajasthani Indian - 75.77%
Indian - 75.74%
Japanese Person - 72.51%
Chinese Persono - 72.43%
Nigerian Person - 69.18%

Bitter-Tasting:

Rajasthani Indian - 85.42%
Punjabi Jatt - 84.72%
South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 80.67%
Indian - 79.73%

Circadian Rhythm:

Chinese Person - 86.90%
Indian - 84.58%
South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 82.48%
Japanese Person - 82.31%
Nigerian Person - 80.61%
Punjabi Jatt - 80.33%
Rajasthani Indian - 76.30%

Endurance:

South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 94.36%
Rajasthani Indian - 91.04%
Punjabi Jatt - 87.22%
Indian - 86.84%
Chinese Person - 85.11%
Japanese Person - 82.45%
Nigerian Person - 76.60%

Female Fertility:

Rajasthani Indian - 94.24%
Punjabi Jatt - 82.37%
Chinese Person - 80.26%
Nigerian Person - 79.61%
Indian - 78.37%
South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 76.79%
Japanese Person - 73.03%

Immune System Compatibility:

Indian - 81.46%
Rajasthani Indian - 81.44%
Punjabi Jatt - 80.69%
South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 72.19%
Nigerian Person - 69.58%
Japanese Person - 67.48%
Chinese Person - 65.91%

Non-Bitter Tasting:

Punjabi Jatt - 83.20%
Indian - 79.37%
Rajasthani Indian - 79.03%
South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 77.56%
Japanese - 71.32%
Chinese - 70.59%
Nigerian - 69.85%

Pigmentation:

Indian - 80.13%
Rajasthani Indian - 79.42%
Punjabi Jatt - 78.54%
South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 74.42%

Weight/BMI:

Punjabi Jatt - 84.85%
Indian - 82.52%
Rajasthani Indian - 81.76%
South Indian (Karnatka) Brahmin - 78.89%

Dr_McNinja
10-20-2013, 01:39 PM
Here's my results from Dr. McDonald:

http://i.imgur.com/s8ipaRW.png

The rest are at: http://imgur.com/a/7QZzw#0


Most likely fit is 58.1% (+- 8.1%) S. Asia (all Pakistan)
and 41.9% (+- 8.1%) S. Asia (all India)
which is 100% total S. Asia

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
Pathan= 0.501 N_India= 0.499 or
Pathan= 0.662 S_India= 0.338

or using a custom fit,
French 0.1335 Balochi 0.1823 Burusho 0.1267 S_India 0.5574 or
French 0.0370 Pathan 0.3487 N_India 0.5816 Uygur 0.0326 or
French 0.0881 Balochi 0.1284 Burusho 0.0787 N_India 0.7048

The computer is just finding fits to what we have. In this case its
probably not giving actual ancestries, just historic affinities”.
N(orth)India is mostly Brahmin, S(outh)India is mostly tribal.

Dr_McNinja
11-20-2013, 05:30 PM
My FTDNA 12-marker results:


DYS393 12
DYS390 23
DYS19 15
DYS391 11
DYS385 12-18
DYS426 11
DYS388 15
DYS439 11
DYS389I 12
DYS392 11
DYS389II 29
---
DYS437 is 14
DYS438 is 9So far it predicts J-M172. I'm upgrading to 25 markers and will probably do a Geno 2.0 test as well later this month.

Post from another thread in the J forum:



"Lastly, HG J2b2-M241–related microsatellite variance is higher in Uttar Pradesh near the border of Nepal. It should be noted that numerous Mesolithic sites have been observed in this region (Kennedy 2000)."
Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/Interesting for a number of reasons. My father's phased paternal kit (via GEDmatch's phasing tool) showed high affinity for this exact area (Nepal was high on his population match) and in DNA-Tribes my highest match was the Tharu population of this region. There were other associations with Northeast Indian tribal populations in these various tests too. There's no such association with my mother's kit which was closer to Punjabi Brahmin in the admixture tools.

Also note how the Haplogroup frequency overlaps between R1a1, R2, J2b2, but variation differs:

http://i.imgur.com/swYxoDW.png
http://i.imgur.com/dAmDj6f.png
http://i.imgur.com/uBbLpsv.png

The Geno 2.0 map shows an additional hotspot in Sindh/Gujarat which makes the correlation that much more striking.

Dr_McNinja
11-20-2013, 05:41 PM
Updated 23andMe gene comparison (across overall):


85.34% - Mother (HRP0374)

75.98% - Pakistani Punjabi Muslim Jatt (Sandhu)
75.97% - Bengali (On Relative Finder as distant cousin)
75.95% - Punjabi Jatt Sikh (Grewal/Mann/Gill) (HRP0341) (This is Sapporo :) )
75.95% - Punjabi Hindu Arora
75.90% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Gill)
75.89% - Father Punjabi, Mother Sindhi, Indian, possibly Khatri (HRP086)
75.87% - Muslim Kashmiri
75.86% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Gill)
75.85% - Some type of Pakistani
75.85% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Gill)
75.84% - Rajasthani Brahmin
75.83% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Kang)
75.83% - South Indian Karnatka Brahmin
75.81% - Punjabi Hindu Khatri
75.81% - Rajasthani Hindu Jatt (HRP0359)
75.81% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Gill)
75.81% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Cheema)
75.80% - Punjabi Hindu Brahmin
75.80% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Shergill)
75.80% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Hayer)
75.80% - Some type of Muslim South Asian
75.79% - Punjabi Jatt (Athwal) (On Relative Finder as 5th cousin)
75.79% - 3/4 Pakistani Punjabi, 1/4 Afghan Pashtun
75.78% - Rajasthani Hindu Jatt (HRP0360)
75.78% - 1/2 Pakistani Punjabi, 1/2 Pakistani Pathan/Pashtun
75.78% - Punjabi Sikh Ramgarhia
75.77% - Some type of Eastern South Asian
75.77% - Rajasthani (probably not Jatt)
75.76% - Haryana Hindu Jatt (HRP0275 or HRP0276)
75.75% - Adopted Punjabi likely of Khatri background
75.75% - Sindhi, either Hindu or Muslim
75.75% - Some type of Indian Punjabi
75.74% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Gill)
75.74% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (Bains)
75.74% - Some type of Indian Punjabi
75.74% - Punjabi Chamar (possibly, definitely Indian)
75.73% - Tamil Brahmin
75.73% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt
75.72% - South Asian
75.72% - Uttarakhandhi Hindu Rajput
75.72% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt
75.72% - Razib Khan (Genome Blogger... Bengali)
75.71% - Pakistan Pashtun (Sein from forums) (HRP0282)
75.70% - Haryana Hindu Jatt (HRP0170)
75.70% - South Asian
75.69% - 1/2 British, 1/2 Sikh Jatt
75.69% - Pakistani Punjabi Muslim Jatt (Cheema) + Khan
75.68% - Kashmiri Pandit
75.68% - Afghan Pashtun
75.67% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt (claims his paternal side were originally Bhatti Rajput clan from Rajasthan which merged with Jatts and his maternal side were Sansi nomadic tribe which merged with Jatts)
75.66% - Punjabi Hindu Khatri
75.66% - Hindu Sindhi
75.65% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt
75.65% - Kashmiri Pandit
75.64% - Afghan Pashtun Popalzai/Durrani (HRP0370)
75.64% - Punjabi
75.62% - South Asian Muslim (On Relative Finder)
75.61% - 1/2 British, 1/2 Sikh Jatt
75.60% - Punjabi Ramgarhia
75.58% - 1/2 European possibly
75.57% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt
75.56% - Khetrani Baloch
75.55% - Punjabi Hindu Khatri
75.54% - 3/4 Euro, 1/4 Jatt (Gill?)
75.37% - Afghan Pashtun (HRP0286)
75.27% - 1/2 British, 1/2 Sikh Jatt
75.22% - Afghan Pashtun
75.22% - Kurd
75.12% - Kashmiri Pahari or Kashmiri Muslim
74.97% - Owner of HAP (Zack)
74.96% - Assyrian (Zephyrous Mandaru from here)
74.25% - Punjabi Hindu Brahmin
74.13% - Punjabi Khatri or Arora
73.94% - Punjabi Sikh Jatt
73.91% - 1/2 Pakistani Punjabi, 1/2 BalochI have some Matharu people ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matharu ) on my relative finder too as 5th cousins.

Thanks to Sapporo for getting me the list.

Dr_McNinja
11-20-2013, 05:47 PM
I found a 3rd cousin under my mom's profile. Another Pansota Jatt from the same ancestral village (his grandfather was brothers with my mother's grandfather). He hasn't accepted the sharing invitation yet but his haplogroups were R1a1a and R30, so my mom is possibly R1a1a. I got a FTDNA YDNA-12 cheek swab test from my maternal uncle that I have to send in.

Dr_McNinja
11-20-2013, 06:00 PM
Mother's results and father's phased results:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1334-Spatial-Ancestry-Analysis-(SPA)-results&p=17726&viewfull=1#post17726

Mom's Harappa Oracle:


Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 punjabi-brahmin @ 3.636
2 punjabi @ 3.980
3 kashmiri-pandit @ 4.090
4 singapore-indian-c @ 4.727
5 up-muslim @ 5.449
6 punjabi-jatt-muslim @ 5.665
7 kashmiri-pahari @ 5.882
8 pushtikar-brahmin @ 5.937
9 punjabi-ramgarhia @ 6.018
10 rajasthani-brahmin @ 6.429
377 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% punjabi-khatri +50% up-brahmin @ 2.117
2 50% brahmin-uttar-pradesh +50% punjabi-khatri @ 2.420
3 50% kashmiri +50% up-brahmin @ 2.493
4 50% kalash +50% srivastava @ 2.713
5 50% brahmin-uttar-pradesh +50% sindhi @ 2.766
6 50% punjabi-brahmin +50% up-muslim @ 2.829
7 50% pathan +50% vaish @ 3.019
8 50% bihari-brahmin +50% punjabi-khatri @ 3.030
9 50% bihari-muslim +50% punjabi-khatri @ 3.061
10 50% karnataka-brahmin +50% pathan @ 3.075
71253 iterations.



Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% punjabi-khatri +25% punjabi-khatri +25% srivastava @ 1.299
2 50% punjabi-khatri +25% kashmiri-pandit +25% srivastava @ 1.385
3 50% punjabi-khatri +25% punjabi-brahmin +25% srivastava @ 1.487
4 50% punjabi-khatri +25% kanjar +25% punjabi-khatri @ 1.554
5 50% punjabi-khatri +25% haryana-jatt +25% velama @ 1.567
6 50% punjabi-khatri +25% punjabi-jatt-muslim +25% srivastava @ 1.571
7 50% punjabi-khatri +25% punjabi +25% srivastava @ 1.609
8 50% punjabi-khatri +25% punjabi-jatt-sikh +25% sourastrian @ 1.622
9 50% punjabi-khatri +25% haryana-jatt +25% meghawal @ 1.624
10 50% punjabi-khatri +25% punjabi-jatt-sikh +25% srivastava @ 1.626
3751850 iterations.



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + srivastava @ 1.299
2 haryana-jatt + kalash + naidu + punjabi-khatri @ 1.385
3 kashmiri-pandit + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + srivastava @ 1.385
4 haryana-jatt + kalash + piramalai-kallar + punjabi-khatri @ 1.411
5 punjabi-brahmin + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + srivastava @ 1.487
6 haryana-jatt + kalash + kurumba + punjabi-khatri @ 1.552
7 kanjar + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri @ 1.554
8 haryana-jatt + kalash + punjabi-khatri + singapore-indian-a @ 1.560
9 haryana-jatt + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + velama @ 1.567
10 punjabi-jatt-muslim + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + srivastava @ 1.571
11 punjabi + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + srivastava @ 1.609
12 haryana-jatt + kalash + punjabi-khatri + vysya @ 1.615
13 punjabi-jatt-sikh + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + sourastrian @ 1.622
14 haryana-jatt + meghawal + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri @ 1.624
15 punjabi-jatt-sikh + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + srivastava @ 1.626
16 punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + rajasthani + rajasthani-brahmin @ 1.626
17 meghawal + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + rajasthani-brahmin @ 1.628
18 kalash + punjabi-khatri + srivastava + up-brahmin @ 1.632
19 punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + up-muslim @ 1.638
20 kerala-christian + punjabi-khatri + punjabi-khatri + rajasthani-brahmin @ 1.656

22839401 iterations.

Done.

Elapsed time 19.7523 seconds.Dad's phased kit's Harappa Oracle:
Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 up-muslim @ 4.683
2 nepali @ 6.603
3 pushtikar-brahmin @ 7.498
4 punjabi @ 9.079
5 gujarati-muslim @ 9.097
6 punjabi-jatt-muslim @ 9.410
7 up-brahmin @ 9.479
8 kashmiri-pandit @ 9.540
9 kashmiri @ 9.727
10 rajasthani-brahmin @ 9.909
377 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% caribbean-indian +50% pashtun @ 3.789
2 50% pashtun +50% sri-lankan @ 3.913
3 50% pashtun +50% srivastava @ 4.025
4 50% pashtun +50% sourastrian @ 4.379
5 50% pashtun +50% up-muslim @ 4.399
6 50% bihari +50% pashtun @ 4.429
7 50% cochin-jew +50% haryana-jatt @ 4.560
8 50% kanjar +50% pashtun @ 4.600
9 50% up-muslim +50% up-muslim @ 4.683
10 50% dharkar +50% pashtun @ 4.691
71253 iterations.



Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% haryana-jatt +25% bene-israel-jew +25% south-african-indian @ 2.611
2 50% up +25% oriya +25% stalskoe @ 2.938
3 50% vaish +25% south-african-indian +25% stalskoe @ 2.950
4 50% haryana-jatt +25% bene-israel-jew +25% tharu @ 2.960
5 50% haryana-jatt +25% kurumba +25% pashtun @ 3.072
6 50% up +25% stalskoe +25% vaish @ 3.080
7 50% punjabi-jatt-sikh +25% malayan +25% tajik @ 3.155
8 50% haryana-jatt +25% bene-israel-jew +25% sourastrian @ 3.156
9 50% haryana-jatt +25% bene-israel-jew +25% caribbean-indian @ 3.190
10 50% oriya +25% north-ossetian +25% up @ 3.191
4847423 iterations.



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 bene-israel-jew + haryana-jatt + haryana-jatt + south-african-indian @ 2.611
2 haryana-jatt + north-kannadi + pashtun + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.694
3 haryana-jatt + kurumba + pashtun + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.738
4 hakkipikki + haryana-jatt + pashtun + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.833
5 bihari-brahmin + oriya + south-african-indian + stalskoe @ 2.872
6 bene-israel-jew + haryana-jatt + nepali + srivastava @ 2.885
7 oriya + south-african-indian + stalskoe + vaish @ 2.897
8 oriya + south-african-indian + stalskoe + up-brahmin @ 2.911
9 oriya + stalskoe + up + up @ 2.938
10 south-african-indian + stalskoe + vaish + vaish @ 2.950
11 bhil + haryana-jatt + pashtun + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.954
12 bene-israel-jew + haryana-jatt + haryana-jatt + tharu @ 2.960
13 chenchu + haryana-jatt + pashtun + punjabi-jatt-muslim @ 2.974
14 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + oriya + south-african-indian + stalskoe @ 2.976
15 haryana-jatt + malayan + pashtun + pathan @ 2.999
16 haryana-jatt + malayan + sindhi + tajik @ 3.013
17 haryana-jatt + kurumba + pashtun + punjabi-jatt-sikh @ 3.026
18 haryana-jatt + kalash + malayan + pashtun @ 3.045
19 south-african-indian + stalskoe + up-kshatriya + vaish @ 3.045
20 chenchu + haryana-jatt + pashtun + pushtikar-brahmin @ 3.053

31822251 iterations.

Done.

Elapsed time 26.0322 seconds.

And update on ANcestry Composition @ 23andMe:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1334-Spatial-Ancestry-Analysis-(SPA)-results&p=19898&viewfull=1#post19898

Dr_McNinja
11-21-2013, 04:11 PM
Here are the paternal lineages of other Gills from 23andMe (thanks to Sapporo!)


Gill - J1e
Shergill - J2a1j
Gill - L1c-M357
Gill - L1c-M357
Gill - L1c-M357

Dr_McNinja
12-04-2013, 04:32 AM
[From J2b2 thread:]

First upgrade to 25 markers completed at FTDNA:


DYS393 = 12
DYS390 = 23
DYS19 = 15
DYS391 = 11
DYS385 = 12-18
DYS426 = 11
DYS388 = 15
DYS439 = 11
DYS389I = 12
DYS392 = 11
DYS389II = 29
DYS458 = 18
DYS459 = 8-9
DYS455 = 11
DYS454 = 11
DYS447 = 25
DYS437 = 14
DYS448 = 19
DYS449 = 30
DYS464 = 10-15-15-16
Upgrade to Y-DNA37 + DYS617 pending.

So far no matches at 25 markers on FTDNA.

Y-Search results: http://i.imgur.com/Q4GI7QP.png

FTDNA M102+ (J2b, J2b1, J2b2) project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/default.aspx?vgroup=m102&section=yresults

I am kit B6225.

That '10' at DYS464a really threw me for a loop. No one else in the group has it.

---

I completed the Geno 2.0 test and mailed it in the other day. Don't know how long to expect results, it says at least 6 weeks but both 23andMe and FTDNA complete theirs earlier.

---

The overall J haplogroup project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/default.aspx?vgroup=Y-DNA_J&section=yresults

---

Tried out a haplogroup predictor:

http://i.imgur.com/w0wpvVZ.png

Will do it again after the next 12 markers are done.

Dr_McNinja
01-15-2014, 08:10 PM
My Geno 2.0 results came in. I'm confirmed J-M241 (J2b2). Update to the previous: 37 marker test completed and DYS617 turned out to be 10, I posted more in the J2b2 thread in the J haplogroup forum.

Geno 2.0 admixture:

50% Southwest Asian
19% Southeast Asian
16% Mediterranean
11% Northern European
2% Native American
2% Northeast Asian

Just for kicks I ran the Geno 2.0 raw data through DIYDodecad/Harappa and got this:


37.84% S-Indian
33.72% Baloch
8.54% Caucasian
9.23% NE-Euro
0.18% SE-Asian
2.00% Siberian
0.15% NE-Asian
0.43% Papuan
1.58% American
1.77% Beringian
2.21% Mediterranean
1.70% SW-Asian
0.00% San
0.00% E-African
0.66% Pygmy
0.00% W-African

[1,] "up_harappa_5" "3.897"
[2,] "bihari-muslim_harappa_4" "5.0369"
[3,] "up-brahmin_harappa_3" "5.285"
[4,] "bengali-brahmin_harappa_6" "6.3169"
[5,] "brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu_8" "6.5599"
[6,] "punjabi_harappa_10" "7.296"
[7,] "punjabi-brahmin_harappa_2" "7.6176"
[8,] "vaish_reich_4" "7.8231"
[9,] "nepalese-a_xing_12" "7.8276"
[10,] "singapore-indian-c_sgvp_10" "7.8958"


[,1] [,2]
[1,] "4.5% russian_hgdp_25 + 95.5% up_harappa_5" "2.3757"
[2,] "22.1% bene-israel-jew_behar_4 + 77.9% up-brahmin_harappa_3" "2.3771"
[3,] "3.8% finnish_1000genomes_100 + 96.2% up_harappa_5" "2.3797"
[4,] "5.1% chuvash_behar_17 + 94.9% up_harappa_5" "2.3993"
[5,] "4.7% mordovian_yunusbayev_15 + 95.3% up_harappa_5" "2.405"
[6,] "47.5% ap-hyderabad_harappa_2 + 52.5% haryana-jatt_harappa_5" "2.4084"
[7,] "4.4% russian_behar_2 + 95.6% up_harappa_5" "2.4265"
[8,] "17.7% paniya_chaubey_3 + 82.3% punjabi-jatt_harappa_8" "2.4612"
[9,] "54% kanjar_metspalu_7 + 46% pashtun_harappa_3" "2.4636"
[10,] "4% lithuanian_behar_10 + 96% up_harappa_5" "2.467" The Geno 2.0 raw data has fewer SNPs tested than the 23andMe/FamilyFinder data so this should be more noisy and less accurate. It's similar to my dad's phased paternal kit. My caucasian numbers are probably that low in reality though, since the component used is West Caucasian which according to Eurogenes K36 is relatively rare in South Asians but I have a little bit, so others' Caucasian numbers (those who have more North than West Caucasian in K36) are lower and mine inflated by probably a percentage point or two.

I ran it through the K36 as well:


0.83% Amerindian
0.00% Arabian
0.00% Armenian
0.01% Basque
0.00% Central_African
0.00% Central_Euro
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% East_Balkan
1.65% East_Central_Asian
0.85% East_Central_Euro
0.00% East_Med
0.00% Eastern_Euro
0.00% Fennoscandian
4.61% French
0.00% Iberian
0.00% Indo-Chinese
0.00% Italian
0.00% Malayan
0.25% Near_Eastern
0.00% North_African
0.00% North_Atlantic
5.15% North_Caucasian
6.58% North_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
0.00% Oceanian
1.47% Omotic
0.00% Pygmy
1.07% Siberian
42.44% South_Asian
34.20% South_Central_Asian
0.00% South_Chinese
0.44% Volga-Ural
0.00% West_African
0.47% West_Caucasian
0.00% West_Med
No West Caucasian there (and lower than the 8.14% total with the 23andMe raw data). All my Euro showed up as Western here, even higher North Sea and a bunch of French (my mom had a touch of French show up in her 23andMe raw data and McDonald used France as my European component too).

Positive SNPs according to FTDNA project page:


CTS10010+, CTS10362+, CTS1068+, CTS10858+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11571+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11765+, CTS11787+, CTS1196+, CTS12047+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2623+, CTS2769+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3936+, CTS3996+, CTS4359+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4407+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5280+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5628+, CTS5962+, CTS6135+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS6932+, CTS7404+, CTS7738+, CTS7856+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8096+, CTS8243+, CTS852+, CTS8749+, CTS886+, CTS8938+, CTS8980+, CTS9229+, CTS9240+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1167+, F1181+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1450+, F1460+, F1634+, F1704+, F1714+, F1744+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2116+, F2142+, F2155+, F2174+, F2276+, F2302+, F2345+, F2366+, F2390+, F2402+, F2502+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2746+, F2749+, F2769+, F2794+, F2817+, F2837+, F2839+, F2973+, F2985+, F2993+, F3074+, F3111+, F3119+, F3136+, F3335+, F3343+, F3347+, F3358+, F3368+, F3384+, F3402+, F3556+, F3692+, F4072+, F4188+, F4272+, F4283+, F719+, F922+, L132+, L134+, L15+, L16+, L228+, L282+, L350+, L403+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L566+, L748+, L778+, L781+, M139+, M168+, M172+, M221+, M235+, M241+, M294+, M304+, M314+, M42+, M89+, M94+, P123+, P124+, P126+, P127+, P130+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P209+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF3504+, PF3515+, PF3517+, PF3518+, PF3534+, PF3560+, PF3561+, PF3562+, PF4490+, PF4491+, PF4513+, PF4521+, PF4530+, PF4572+, PF4591+, PF4595+, PF4597+, PF4598+, PF4622+, PF4886+, PF4898+, PF4925+, PF4926+, PF4935+, PF500+, PF601+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF7292+, PF7295+, PF7296+, PF7304+, PF7317+, PF7346+, PF7369+, PF7371+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000056+, YSC0000064+, YSC0000066+, YSC0000165+, YSC0000197+, YSC0000228+, YSC0000236+, YSC0000239+, YSC0000265+, Z1827+, Z518+, Z519+, Z520+, Z521+, Z524+, Z525+, Z526+, Z528+, Z530+, Z531+, Z532+, Z533+, Z535+, Z536+, Z537+, Z540+, Z543+, Z544+, Z545+, Z546+, Z550+, Z551+, Z552+, Z554+, Z555+, Z556+, Z557+, Z560+, Z561+, Z563+, Z564+, Z565+, Z567+, Z575+, Z586+, Z591+, Z593+, Z598+, Z599+, Z605+, Z610+, Z611+, Z620+

mtDNA was M4'67 (equivalent to M30b I believe).

newtoboard
01-15-2014, 08:26 PM
Weird that Gene 2.0 has you as 77% West Eurasian but your South Indian component in Harappa is close to 38%. Given the 77% is more likely (matches past estimates of ANI for NW South Asia) that means Harappa's South Indian component is a hybrid one.

parasar
01-15-2014, 09:17 PM
Weird that Gene 2.0 has you as 77% West Eurasian but your South Indian component in Harappa is close to 38%. Given the 77% is more likely (matches past estimates of ANI for NW South Asia) that means Harappa's South Indian component is a hybrid one.

SW Asian is essentially their lingo for current Indian.
As they say: "Southwest Asian component represents the first migration from Africa through Southwest Asia to the Indian subcontinent. It is likely the oldest component in Indian populations today."

Geno 2.0 admixture samples:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Northern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Eastern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Western-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Southern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

Dr_McNinja
01-15-2014, 09:17 PM
Weird that Gene 2.0 has you as 77% West Eurasian but your South Indian component in Harappa is close to 38%. Given the 77% is more likely (matches past estimates of ANI for NW South Asia) that means Harappa's South Indian component is a hybrid one.It was 34.97% in Zack's official calculator based on my 23andMe data (37.09% according to the GEDmatch Harappa based on my 23andMe raw data). It's higher than my mom's (HRP0374) and my dad's phased kit which are both around 2% lower.

I'm not well versed on the ancestral admixture stuff. What other components are there besides West Eurasian and which regions do they cover? What is South Indian considered?

Sapporo
01-15-2014, 09:33 PM
SW Asian is essentially their lingo for current Indian.
As they say: "Southwest Asian component represents the first migration from Africa through Southwest Asia to the Indian subcontinent. It is likely the oldest component in Indian populations today."

Geno 2.0 admixture samples:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Northern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Eastern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Western-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Southern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

I disagree. SW Asian is around 16-17% for Northern Europeans and for Iranians, around 42% or so. In my opinion, SW Asian is mostly Gedrosia/Baloch "like" plus the West Eurasian portion of the South Indian component on HAP. At least for South Asians and some surrounding populations.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

HAP's admixture is roughly similar to Dodecad K12b which has its South Asian component at close to 50% West Eurasian.

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

Dr_McNinja
01-15-2014, 09:34 PM
The comparison between EUTest with my 23andMe raw data and Geno 2.0 raw data:


23andMe:

SOUTH_BALTIC 1.23%
EAST_EURO 10.11%
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 3.94%
ATLANTIC 3.28%
WEST_MED -
EAST_MED 4.91%
WEST_ASIAN 18.39%
MIDDLE_EASTERN -
SOUTH_ASIAN 55.41%
EAST_AFRICAN -
EAST_ASIAN -
SIBERIAN 2.69%
WEST_AFRICAN -

Geno 2.0:

0.00% SOUTH_BALTIC
11.66% EAST_EURO
4.54% NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO
5.05% ATLANTIC
0.00% WEST_MED
0.65% EAST_MED
18.20% WEST_ASIAN
0.00% MIDDLE_EASTERN
55.43% SOUTH_ASIAN
0.78% EAST_AFRICAN
0.00% EAST_ASIAN
3.69% SIBERIAN
0.00% WEST_AFRICAN The only major difference is that my Euro from Geno 2.0 shows up as East_Med with the 23andMe raw data, but the South Asian/West Asian are almost identical.

toast
01-15-2014, 09:44 PM
SW Asian is essentially their lingo for current Indian.
As they say: "Southwest Asian component represents the first migration from Africa through Southwest Asia to the Indian subcontinent. It is likely the oldest component in Indian populations today."

Geno 2.0 admixture samples:

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Northern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Eastern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Western-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Southern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

Looks all wrong because Iranians have more SW Asian than North Indians.

Harappa's South Indian component for Indians looks like a combination of GENO.2's Southeast Indian and majority of SW Asian combined. Otherwise it just makes no sense that South Indians would have that much high 35% Southeast Asian...where does that come from? Geno.2's SW Asian is defiantly several Neolithic (layered) component in my opinion, and the Southeast Asian is the one with greater affinities to Onge = Harappa's South Indian.

Sein
01-15-2014, 09:48 PM
It was 34.97% in Zack's official calculator based on my 23andMe data (37.09% according to the GEDmatch Harappa based on my 23andMe raw data). It's higher than my mom's (HRP0374) and my dad's phased kit which are both around 2% lower.

I'm not well versed on the ancestral admixture stuff. What other components are there besides West Eurasian and which regions do they cover? What is South Indian considered?

West Eurasian basically means European and West Asian, and also covers most of the ancestry of NW South Asians. But all South Asians, including those in the NW, also have some East Eurasian ancestry, of a very ancient and distinctive kind, which Reich et al. dubbed "Ancestral South Indian" (ASI). The "South Indian" for HarappaWorld is about 50% West Eurasian, and 50% East Eurasian (ASI). At high K like this, the component modal in South India tends to be a hybrid one. At some lower Ks, it is much more West Eurasian in affinity. For example, Eurogenes K13's South Asian component is strongly West Eurasian, which is why it's at appreciable percentages in Iran and Tajikistan, and Pakistanis have it in the 30%-40% range.

By the way, your results are pretty cool!

For comparison, mine:
Southwest Asian=46%
Mediterranean=25%
North European=11%
Southeast Asian=11%
Northeast Asian=4%
Native American=2%

To be honest, I'd say were quite similar. So far, my closest results are to two Afghan Pashtuns. Just a side note, but Geno 2.0's "Southeast Asian" is perfectly correlated to "ASI" ancestry in South Asians. Taking into account the fact that you probably don't have any recent East Asian admixture, it is a safe bet to say that this means you are 19% ASI. This wouldn't work for me, since I do have recent East Asian, and that muddles things up. But I guess I'm 9% ASI. Also, our West Eurasian percentages are quite similar. Your 77% West Eurasian, and I'm 82% West Eurasian.

What are your closest reference populations? I'm closest to North Caucasians, and Gujarati Indians.

Dr_McNinja
01-15-2014, 09:52 PM
West Eurasian basically means European and West Asian, and also covers most of the ancestry of NW South Asians. But all South Asians, including those in the NW, also have some East Eurasian ancestry, of a very ancient and distinctive kind, which Reich et al. dubbed "Ancestral South Indian" (ASI). The "South Indian" for HarappaWorld is about 50% West Eurasian, and 50% East Eurasian (ASI). At high K like this, the component modal in South India tends to be a hybrid one. At some lower Ks, it is much more West Eurasian in affinity. For example, Eurogenes K13's South Asian component is strongly West Eurasian, which is why it's at appreciable percentages in Iran and Tajikistan, and Pakistanis have it in the 30%-40% range.

By the way, your results are pretty cool!

For comparison, mine:
Southwest Asian=46%
Mediterranean=25%
North European=11%
Southeast Asian=11%
Northeast Asian=4%
Native American=2%

To be honest, I'd say were quite similar. So far, my closest results are to two Afghan Pashtuns. Just a side note, but Geno 2.0's "Southeast Asian" is perfectly correlated to "ASI" ancestry in South Asians. Taking into account the fact that you probably don't have any recent East Asian admixture, it is a safe bet to say that this means you are 19% ASI. This wouldn't work for me, since I do have recent East Asian that muddles things up. But I guess I'm 9% ASI. Also, our West Eurasian percentages are quite similar. Your 77% West Eurasian, and I'm 82% West Eurasian.

What are your closest reference populations? I'm closest to North Caucasians, and Gujarati Indians.Thanks for the explanation!

They used "Pamiri (Tajikstan)" and "Southern Indian"... yours makes a hell of a lot more sense than mine. I should have gotten the Gujaratis I think, they're closest to Punjabis I thought...

Also, 2.2% Neanderthal and 3.8% Denisovan

Sapporo
01-15-2014, 09:53 PM
My Geno 2.0 results came in. I'm confirmed J-M241 (J2b2). Update to the previous: 37 marker test completed and DYS617 turned out to be 10, I posted more in the J2b2 thread in the J haplogroup forum.

Geno 2.0 admixture:

50% Southwest Asian
19% Southeast Asian
16% Mediterranean
11% Northern European
2% Native American
2% Northeast Asian



Here are paul's results for comparison:


Southwest Asian
50%
Mediterranean
19%
Southeast Asian
15%
Northern European
13%
Northeast Asian
2%

parasar
01-15-2014, 10:13 PM
I disagree. SW Asian is around 16-17% for Northern Europeans and for Iranians, around 42% or so. In my opinion, SW Asian is mostly Gedrosia/Baloch "like" plus the West Eurasian portion of the South Indian component on HAP. At least for South Asians and some surrounding populations.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/

HAP's admixture is roughly similar to Dodecad K12b which has its South Asian component at close to 50% West Eurasian.

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

And Gedrosia/Baloch is an Indian component right? And we also know it is one of the oldest, if not the oldest in South Asia, so why do you think Genographic Project is wrong?

They are being fully consistent with their migration map:
http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/attachment/35881.wss?fileId=ATTACH_FILE2&fileName=Geno%20Project%20Human%20Migration%20Map_ print.jpg

toast
01-15-2014, 10:14 PM
Geno.2's North indian reference sample looks like a work of fiction. I wonder if they sampled Tibetan refugees...but then again I think not because of the high amounts of Southeast Asian at 27% which is too high for a non-Indian (non-Asian) reference.

everest59
01-15-2014, 11:37 PM
Doesn't the SW asian peak in South Indians? I think it's probably a mixture of ASI and Gedrosia.
Another thing I'd like to mention is that the South Indian in the Harappa project is probably pretty close to ASI. I think the formula I used was:
F4(Papuan, Yoruba ; X Georgian)/F4(Papuan, Yoruba; Onge Georgian)

I don't exactly remember, but I think this was it. The ASI went up a little bit in the Sindhis (I think around 31% if I remember). I had to remove some outliers due to African admixture.
Obviously, it won't work in certain populations because ASI and East Asian get lumped together.

parasar
01-15-2014, 11:57 PM
Doesn't the SW asian peak in South Indians? I think it's probably a mixture of ASI and Gedrosia.
Another thing I'd like to mention is that the South Indian in the Harappa project is probably pretty close to ASI. I think the formula I used was:
F4(Papuan, Yoruba ; X Georgian)/F4(Papuan, Yoruba; Onge Georgian)

I don't exactly remember, but I think this was it. The ASI went up a little bit in the Sindhis (I think around 31% if I remember). I had to remove some outliers due to African admixture.
Obviously, it won't work in certain populations because ASI and East Asian get lumped together.
Reich's ASI was itself a composite and his proxy for ASI did not even fit on the Indian Cline as it showed an East Asian skew.

Sein
01-16-2014, 12:02 AM
Doesn't the SW asian peak in South Indians? I think it's probably a mixture of ASI and Gedrosia.
Another thing I'd like to mention is that the South Indian in the Harappa project is probably pretty close to ASI. I think the formula I used was:
F4(Papuan, Yoruba ; X Georgian)/F4(Papuan, Yoruba; Onge Georgian)

I don't exactly remember, but I think this was it. The ASI went up a little bit in the Sindhis (I think around 31% if I remember). I had to remove some outliers due to African admixture.
Obviously, it won't work in certain populations because ASI and East Asian get lumped together.

That's actually the interesting thing about it. Although, it seems to be entirely West Eurasian. Basically, it captures the West Eurasian ancestry specific to South Asia, and shared with West Asians.

I think the methods aren't comparable though. In the context of Admixture/Structure, the South Indian component is almost evenly divided between West and East Eurasian. I think we can only talk about ASI when doing statistics similar to F4, if that makes any sense. Just like we don't detect Amerindian ancestry in Europeans using Admixture/Structure.

everest59
01-16-2014, 12:16 AM
That's actually the interesting thing about it. Although, it seems to be entirely West Eurasian. Basically, it captures the West Eurasian ancestry specific to South Asia, and shared with West Asians.

I think the methods aren't comparable though. In the context of Admixture/Structure, the South Indian component is almost evenly divided between West and East Eurasian. I think we can only talk about ASI when doing statistics similar to F4, if that makes any sense. Just like we don't detect Amerindian ancestry in Europeans using Admixture/Structure.

I know Dienekes mentioned somewhere that the South Asian component in one of his calculators is divided between West and East Eurasian. However, what applies to one calculator may not apply to another. I know that Zack posted a formula to calculate ASI from the South Indian component somewhere in his blog. This was based on Reich paper. However, ANI went down in the Moorjani paper.
Anyways, I think that if South Asians have higher ANE than Georgians do, the F4 formula won't capture it wholly.
Also, I do agree that ASI is a composite. No doubt in my mind about that. ASI is basically all sorts of components with East Eurasian affinity lumped together.

Sein
01-16-2014, 12:30 AM
I know Dienekes mentioned somewhere that the South Asian component in one of his calculators is divided between West and East Eurasian. However, what applies to one calculator may not apply to another. I know that Zack posted a formula to calculate ASI from the South Indian component somewhere in his blog. This was based on Reich paper. However, ANI went down in the Moorjani paper.
Anyways, I think that if South Asians have higher ANE than Georgians do, the F4 formula won't capture it wholly.
Also, I do agree that ASI is a composite. No doubt in my mind about that. ASI is basically all sorts of components with East Eurasian affinity lumped together.

A very good point. But the Fsts between the components are suggestive, as HarappaWorld's "South Indian" is in between the West and East Eurasian components. The other thing that would support this is Dodecad K12b. The "South Asian" component for Dodecad K12b is identical to HarappaWorld's "South Indian" (my percentages are virtually identical, as they are for other South Asians whose numbers I've seen), and this was the component that Dienekes thought was evenly split between West and East Eurasian. Another interesting thing to consider would be Geno 2.0's "Southeast Asian" component. For South Asians without recent East Asian admixture, their "Southeast Asian" component for Geno 2.0 is always about 50% of their "South Indian" component for HarappaWorld.

everest59
01-16-2014, 12:38 AM
A very good point. But the Fsts between the components are suggestive, as HarappaWorld's "South Indian" is in between the West and East Eurasian components. The other thing that would support this is Dodecad K12b. The "South Asian" component for Dodecad K12b is identical to HarappaWorld's "South Indian" (my percentages are virtually identical, as they are for other South Asians whose numbers I've seen), and this was the component that Dienekes thought was evenly split between West and East Eurasian. Another interesting thing to consider would be Geno 2.0's "Southeast Asian" component. For South Asians without recent East Asian admixture, their "Southeast Asian" component for Geno 2.0 is always about 50% of their "South Indian" component for HarappaWorld.

Yeah, you are right. The South Asian is around the same level as Harappa. I was thinking of a different calculator.

toast
01-16-2014, 01:03 AM
Doesn't the SW asian peak in South Indians? I think it's probably a mixture of ASI and Gedrosia.

Except Iranians have 42% SW Asian https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/ which is higher than the North Indian reference which has 34% SW Asian.

so if SW Asian was an Indian component the opposite should be true, the North Indian reference should have much higher SW Asian than Iranians but it has lower than all the rest of Indians as well.

West Indian - 58%
South Indian - 58%
East Indian - 43%

It's the combination of NatGeo's SW Asian + SE Indian which equals Harappa's South indian (hybrid). That is the reason Dr_Mcninja's two highest NatGeo components being SW Asian and SE Asian translate to around 35% ASI on harappa

For Iranians testing with NatGeo, some of that SW Asian will pick up some real above noise-level SW Asian on Harappa's calculator, and NatGeo's Mediterranean will bleed out as both Caucasian and Med components, same for Balochs and South Asians with West Asian affinity.

Sapporo
01-16-2014, 01:38 AM
Parasar, if you consider Gedrosia/Baloch as Indian, then yes. It is mostly South Asian specific in nature but with a clear West Eurasian like affinity.

parasar
01-16-2014, 01:50 AM
Except Iranians have 42% SW Asian https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/ which is higher than the North Indian reference which has 34% SW Asian.

so if SW Asian was an Indian component the opposite should be true, the North Indian reference should have much higher SW Asian than Iranians but it has lower than all the rest of Indians as well.

West Indian - 58%
South Indian - 58%
East Indian - 43%

It's the combination of NatGeo's SW Asian + SE Indian which equals Harappa's South indian (hybrid). That is the reason Dr_Mcninja's two highest NatGeo components being SW Asian and SE Asian translate to around 35% ASI on harappa

For Iranians testing with NatGeo, some of that SW Asian will pick up some real above noise-level SW Asian on Harappa's calculator, and NatGeo's Mediterranean will bleed out as both Caucasian and Med components, same for Balochs and South Asians with West Asian affinity.

If these north Indians are from Uttar Pradesh, especially eastern portions, then it would not surprise that their SW Asian is low. There is a boost in the east and south east in ASI components from SE Asia (Munda-Santhal-Gond) and even traces of East Asian near Nepal, which would come at the expense on SW Asian.

everest59
01-16-2014, 01:51 AM
Except Iranians have 42% SW Asian https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/ which is higher than the North Indian reference which has 34% SW Asian.

so if SW Asian was an Indian component the opposite should be true, the North Indian reference should have much higher SW Asian than Iranians but it has lower than all the rest of Indians as well.

West Indian - 58%
South Indian - 58%
East Indian - 43%

It's the combination of NatGeo's SW Asian + SE Indian which equals Harappa's South indian (hybrid). That is the reason Dr_Mcninja's two highest NatGeo components being SW Asian and SE Asian translate to around 35% ASI on harappa

For Iranians testing with NatGeo, some of that SW Asian will pick up some real above noise-level SW Asian on Harappa's calculator, and NatGeo's Mediterranean will bleed out as both Caucasian and Med components, same for Balochs and South Asians with West Asian affinity.

Honestly, I don't buy Nat Geo's results for the following reason:

F4(Papuan. Yoruba ; X , Georgian)/ F4(Papuan, Yoruba ; Onge, Georgian) produces result in the low 30's for the Sindhis. I tried this with various populations, and it seems pretty consistent with the Harappa South Indian. The F4 ratio is basically comparing Onge with X and separating out the Georgian component.
Having said that, due to the fact that Admixtools confuses ANE (Ancestral North Eurasian) and Onge, I think depending on the population, you need to subtract what you think is the ANE number for that group(i.e. ANE in excess of what Georgians have). Because I think ANE came with West Eurasians even though it seems to have some East Asian affinity.
I have been unable to compute ANE correctly for South Asian populations as of now.
Anyways, I feel I am on the correct path because adding ANI and ASI that I computed adds up to almost 100%.

I have calculated the Shared Drift statistic for various groups, and I feel that the Ancestral North Eurasian ancestry in South Asians is comparable to many European populations. See below:

Source 1 Source 2 Target f_3 std. err Z SNPs
result: Mal'ta Orcadian Yoruba 0.196754 0.003360 58.562 72978
result: Mal'ta French Yoruba 0.190634 0.003317 57.472 73047
result: Mal'ta Russian Yoruba 0.200768 0.003310 60.648 73058
result: Mal'ta Adygei Yoruba 0.188852 0.003274 57.676 72999
result: Mal'ta Brahmin Yoruba 0.193249 0.004721 40.936 11512
result: Mal'ta Kashmiri_Pandit Yoruba 0.191860 0.004697 40.843 11526
result: Mal'ta Onge Yoruba 0.178263 0.005797 30.752 11369
result: Mal'ta Karitiana Yoruba 0.232218 0.004235 54.838 72423
result: Mal'ta Pathan Yoruba 0.193482 0.003106 62.296 73034
result: Mal'ta Gond Yoruba 0.181407 0.004666 38.880 11506
result: Mal'ta Irula Yoruba 0.183800 0.005097 36.063 11452
result: Mal'ta Meghawal Yoruba 0.188390 0.004895 38.490 11465
result: Mal'ta Basque Yoruba 0.188448 0.003348 56.289 73013
##end of qp3Pop

It just depends on Population, caste, etc.
Yes, the numbers aren't comparable to Raghavan's.

newtoboard
01-16-2014, 01:56 AM
West Eurasian basically means European and West Asian, and also covers most of the ancestry of NW South Asians. But all South Asians, including those in the NW, also have some East Eurasian ancestry, of a very ancient and distinctive kind, which Reich et al. dubbed "Ancestral South Indian" (ASI). The "South Indian" for HarappaWorld is about 50% West Eurasian, and 50% East Eurasian (ASI). At high K like this, the component modal in South India tends to be a hybrid one. At some lower Ks, it is much more West Eurasian in affinity. For example, Eurogenes K13's South Asian component is strongly West Eurasian, which is why it's at appreciable percentages in Iran and Tajikistan, and Pakistanis have it in the 30%-40% range.

By the way, your results are pretty cool!

For comparison, mine:
Southwest Asian=46%
Mediterranean=25%
North European=11%
Southeast Asian=11%
Northeast Asian=4%
Native American=2%

To be honest, I'd say were quite similar. So far, my closest results are to two Afghan Pashtuns. Just a side note, but Geno 2.0's "Southeast Asian" is perfectly correlated to "ASI" ancestry in South Asians. Taking into account the fact that you probably don't have any recent East Asian admixture, it is a safe bet to say that this means you are 19% ASI. This wouldn't work for me, since I do have recent East Asian, and that muddles things up. But I guess I'm 9% ASI. Also, our West Eurasian percentages are quite similar. Your 77% West Eurasian, and I'm 82% West Eurasian.

What are your closest reference populations? I'm closest to North Caucasians, and Gujarati Indians.

I wouldn't call ASI East Eurasian but rather South Eurasian. It is marginally closer to West Eurasian but not close to either one.

newtoboard
01-16-2014, 01:59 AM
Here are paul's results for comparison:


Southwest Asian
50%
Mediterranean
19%
Southeast Asian
15%
Northern European
13%
Northeast Asian
2%

82% West Eurasian is not surprising given we know this peaks in Jatts but interesting none the less. Also interesting is local peaks of Northern European and Med among Jatts whereas the local peak of West Asian among South Asians seems to be among Sindhis.

Sein
01-16-2014, 01:59 AM
I guess a reasonable analogy would be Zack's Reference 3 "Onge" component. The HGDP Pashtuns were 11% "Onge", even though they are 23% South Indian for HarappaWorld. Admixture/Structure produces "ASI" percentages much lower than those found using Admixtools. For example, according to Geno 2.0, their South Indian reference is 35% ASI, which correlates rather well with Zack's "Onge" component. I guess "ASI" only exists in the context of statistics like F4, if that makes any sense.

Sein
01-16-2014, 02:08 AM
I wouldn't call ASI East Eurasian but rather South Eurasian. It is marginally closer to West Eurasian but not close to either one.

ASI is basically East Eurasian, the new European genetics paper calls it ENA (Eastern Non-African), along with the Han Chinese and Papuans. I think Razib summarizes it very nicely here:
"In this scenario South Asians are an admixture of West Eurasians and an extinct branch of East Eurasians, explaining their affinities to both great branches of humanity."
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/our-ancestry-as-a-braided-estuary/

parasar
01-16-2014, 02:08 AM
Parasar, if you consider Gedrosia/Baloch as Indian, then yes. It is mostly South Asian specific in nature but with a clear West Eurasian like affinity.

No doubt about the affinity. That it is Indian is quite possible, but when components are so old we can't be sure. An origin anywhere from Europe, Caucasus, or India is equally possible. That where ancient DNA should come in.

Metapalu et al tried to nail its origin, but failed:

Our simulations show that haplotype diversity flanking autosomal SNPs can be used to infer source population even when populations dispersed these alleles 288, 400, or 500 generations ago ... we counted the number of unique haplotypes in genomic windows surrounding SNPs in strong positive association with this ancestry component. Because recombination on autosomal chromosomes will over time erase the signal and thus limit the utility of this approach, we used simulations to explore how deep in time one can go to trace directionality of migration ... Our simulations show that differences in haplotype diversity between source and recipient populations can be detected even for migration events that occurred 500 generations ago (∼12,500 years ago assuming one generation to be 25 years). For alleles associated with k5, haplotype diversity is comparable among all studied populations across West Eurasia and the Indus basin ...

newtoboard
01-16-2014, 02:20 AM
ASI is basically East Eurasian, the new European genetics paper calls it ENA (Eastern Non-African), along with the Han Chinese and Papuans. I think Razib summarizes it very nicely here:
"In this scenario South Asians are an admixture of West Eurasians and an extinct branch of East Eurasians, explaining their affinities to both great branches of humanity."
http://www.unz.com/gnxp/our-ancestry-as-a-braided-estuary/


East Eurasian might be used as a way to describe all non African and West a Eurasian component. But I sincerely doubt this ASI component would plot near NE Asians which is what I consider East Eurasian.

everest59
01-16-2014, 02:25 AM
No doubt about the affinity. That it is Indian is quite possible, but when components are so old we can't be sure. An origin anywhere from Europe, Caucasus, or India is equally possible. That where ancient DNA should come in.

Metapalu et al tried to nail its origin, but failed:

It would be great if we get some ancient DNA from India.
Honestly, I don't think the results are accurate for South Asians because we're relying too much on modern populations.

Mehrdad
01-16-2014, 02:28 AM
It would be great if we get some ancient DNA from India.
Honestly, I don't think the results are accurate for South Asians because we're relying too much on modern populations.

You make a great point, anyone knows what's up with the Farmana analysis?

Sein
01-16-2014, 02:28 AM
East Eurasian might be used as a way to describe all non African and West a Eurasian component. But I sincerely doubt this ASI component would plot near NE Asians which is what I consider East Eurasian.

Quite true, I'd imagine that Siberian and Northeast Asian peoples have a very tenuous relationship with pre-Neolithic South Asians. But ASI does show a very strong relationship to some East Asian populations, like the Dai.

toast
01-16-2014, 02:28 AM
If these north Indians are from Uttar Pradesh, especially eastern portions, then it would not surprise that their SW Asian is low. There is a boost in the east and south east in ASI components from SE Asia (Munda-Santhal-Gond) and even traces of East Asian near Nepal, which would come at the expense on SW Asian.

That makes perfect sense, parasar. I tried getting an explanation from them about the origins of those references but they said they were unable to disclose more info. Yes agree that natgeo's sw asian &se asian register as ani/asi for south asians.

newtoboard
01-16-2014, 02:31 AM
Quite true, I'd imagine that Siberian and Northeast Asian peoples have a very tenuous relationship with pre-Neolithic South Asians. But ASI does show a very strong relationship to some East Asian populations, like the Dai.

The Dai seem more SE Asian which would make sense of why ASI if close to them relative to more Northern Asians.

parasar
01-16-2014, 02:51 AM
Honestly, I don't buy Nat Geo's results for the following reason:

F4(Papuan. Yoruba ; X , Georgian)/ F4(Papuan, Yoruba ; Onge, Georgian) produces result in the low 30's for the Sindhis. I tried this with various populations, and it seems pretty consistent with the Harappa South Indian. The F4 ratio is basically comparing Onge with X and separating out the Georgian component.
Having said that, due to the fact that Admixtools confuses ANE (Ancestral North Eurasian) and Onge, I think depending on the population, you need to subtract what you think is the ANE number for that group(i.e. ANE in excess of what Georgians have). Because I think ANE came with West Eurasians even though it seems to have some East Asian affinity.
I have been unable to compute ANE correctly for South Asian populations as of now.
Anyways, I feel I am on the correct path because adding ANI and ASI that I computed adds up to almost 100%.

I have calculated the Shared Drift statistic for various groups, and I feel that the Ancestral North Eurasian ancestry in South Asians is comparable to many European populations. See below:

Source 1 Source 2 Target f_3 std. err Z SNPs
result: Mal'ta Orcadian Yoruba 0.196754 0.003360 58.562 72978
result: Mal'ta French Yoruba 0.190634 0.003317 57.472 73047
result: Mal'ta Russian Yoruba 0.200768 0.003310 60.648 73058
result: Mal'ta Adygei Yoruba 0.188852 0.003274 57.676 72999
result: Mal'ta Brahmin Yoruba 0.193249 0.004721 40.936 11512
result: Mal'ta Kashmiri_Pandit Yoruba 0.191860 0.004697 40.843 11526
result: Mal'ta Onge Yoruba 0.178263 0.005797 30.752 11369
result: Mal'ta Karitiana Yoruba 0.232218 0.004235 54.838 72423
result: Mal'ta Pathan Yoruba 0.193482 0.003106 62.296 73034
result: Mal'ta Gond Yoruba 0.181407 0.004666 38.880 11506
result: Mal'ta Irula Yoruba 0.183800 0.005097 36.063 11452
result: Mal'ta Meghawal Yoruba 0.188390 0.004895 38.490 11465
result: Mal'ta Basque Yoruba 0.188448 0.003348 56.289 73013
##end of qp3Pop

It just depends on Population, caste, etc.
Yes, the numbers aren't comparable to Raghavan's.

Are the Russian samples from the western steppes or Siberia? They and the Karitiana are the only ones over 0.2.

The Karitiana incidentally also harbor Denisovan components. Table S3 http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/10/25/1108181108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201108181SI.pdf

http://johnhawks.net/graphics/skoglund-denisova-frequencies-2011.png
"Interpolated spatial distribution of the frequency of Denisova alleles at SNPs where Denisova is different from chimpanzee and Neandertal. Sample localities are indicated with rectangles."
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1108181108.full.pdf

toast
01-16-2014, 02:58 AM
And Gedrosia/Baloch is an Indian component right? And we also know it is one of the oldest, if not the oldest in South Asia, so why do you think Genographic Project is wrong?

They are being fully consistent with their migration map:
http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/attachment/35881.wss?fileId=ATTACH_FILE2&fileName=Geno%20Project%20Human%20Migration%20Map_ print.jpg

Parasar whats your opinion about some of that gedrosia/baloch in jatt punjabis coming from iran?

everest59
01-16-2014, 02:58 AM
Honestly, I'm not sure where the Russian samples were collected. Those are HGDP samples (both Russians and Karitiana).

Dr_McNinja
01-16-2014, 03:09 AM
You make a great point, anyone knows what's up with the Farmana analysis?I heard someone mention Farmana months ago, what is it? Are they running tests on some ancient remains there?

Dr_McNinja
01-16-2014, 03:16 AM
Parasar whats your opinion about some of that gedrosia/baloch in jatt punjabis coming from iran?Gedrosian/Baloch probably came to all Punjabis, regardless of caste, directly due to proximity. Should be very high in Punjabi Arain especially (I believe they are of recent migratory origin from the West/Southwest). West Asian (along with South Indian) has been geographically relevant when I was attempting to plot individuals by admixture breakdowns. European has not (which I take to indicate that it is of ancestral origin and doesn't point to any recent or ongoing geographic connection, unlike the case with West Asian and South Indian). Gedrosian/Baloch is hence lower in Jatts outside of Punjab (Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, etc).

Sein
01-16-2014, 03:25 AM
Also, 2.2% Neanderthal and 3.8% Denisovan.

That's not fair, I'm a meager 1.4% Neanderthal, and 1.3% Denisovan. :biggrin1:

Should we take the Denisovan percentage seriously?

parasar
01-16-2014, 03:28 AM
Parasar whats your opinion about some of that gedrosia/baloch in jatt punjabis coming from iran?

Overall not much I think. For Muslims Jatts perhaps an elevated Caucasus would be due a Persian influence. The Baloch themselves are ground zero for Baloch, after all the component is named after them (with Dienekes naturally using their Greek name :)). The Jats of the Indus have been neighbors of the Baloch at least as long as these names have been in existence. The Baloch, Brahui, and Makrani do show a south SW Asian influence (Arab?) which is low or absent in the Jats.

parasar
01-16-2014, 04:00 AM
...

Also, 2.2% Neanderthal and 3.8% Denisovan

6% non-African archaic! Your ancestors must have lived in the Denisova cave itself! Is that high Denisovan %age common for South Asians (since it is missing in the Onge)?

Perhaps it came in with the ANE as that would explain why the Karitiana would show both ANE and Denisovan.

We do know that Papuan HGDP00542 is in an ancestral position to ANE (Mal'ta R and Karitiana Q):

(the Papuan, HGDP00542) appears to have some interesting implications for the phylogenetic structure around haplogroup M. In particular, the tree shows that the haplogroup M sample shares derived status with haplogroup P samples at several SNP sites, indicating the existence of an “MP” haplogroup upstream of haplogroup P and haplogroup M. http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf

And, HGDP00542 looks as much as anyone today can look Denisovan:

Papuan HGDP00542 105% ... proportion of Denisova ancestry in a population X as a fraction of that in the Papuan2 sample
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188841/table/tbl2/

Dr_McNinja
01-16-2014, 04:10 AM
6% non-African archaic! Your ancestors must have lived in the Denisova cave itself! Is that high Denisovan %age common for South Asians (since it is missing in the Onge)?

Perhaps it came in with the ANE as that would explain why the Karitiana would show both ANE and Denisovan.

We do know that Papuan HGDP00542 is in an ancestral position to ANE (Mal'ta R and Karitiana Q):
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf

And, HGDP00542 looks as much as anyone today can look Denisovan:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188841/table/tbl2/Lol, it's cool and all but how seriously to take it? Do I really have 6% pre-Homo Sapiens-Sapiens DNA and only 2% Native American and 2% Northeast Asian? I don't take it seriously because they don't include it in their overall admixture painting so that 6% is being painted as other stuff. Or is it being counted as other AMH components too?

23andMe said I had 2.7% Neanderthal which was the 75th percentile among South Asians.

I did have some trace Papuan in various calculators but I figure it was just noise. The Siberian/Arctic stuff is consistently present though.

Dr_McNinja
01-16-2014, 04:12 AM
Speaking of which, what % Neanderthal/Denisovan are other South Asian users getting? Did any of you besides Sein take the test?

Mehrdad
01-16-2014, 05:34 AM
I heard someone mention Farmana months ago, what is it? Are they running tests on some ancient remains there?

Apparently its an ancient Harappan burial site that contains the remains of ancient South Asians. They took the bones for carbon dating and also genetic testing in 2011, and ever since we've been waiting for the results.

Disclaimer: Not sure whether it was 2011 or 2012.

Dr_McNinja
01-16-2014, 06:05 AM
Thanks for the explanation!

They used "Pamiri (Tajikstan)" and "Southern Indian"... yours makes a hell of a lot more sense than mine. I should have gotten the Gujaratis I think, they're closest to Punjabis I thought...

Also, 2.2% Neanderthal and 3.8% DenisovanActually my results seem like a close average of the Pamiri/Tajik and Southern Indian populations! Right halfway between them. I don't see Gujarati Indians in the reference population list though, did they remove those?

Also this user: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1874-Whalen-s-Geno-2-results has Neanderthal+Denisovan almost as high as mine and is from nowhere near India so I guess it happens somewhat randomly

Sein
01-16-2014, 07:20 AM
Actually my results seem like a close average of the Pamiri/Tajik and Southern Indian populations! Right halfway between them. I don't see Gujarati Indians in the reference population list though, did they remove those?

Also this user: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1874-Whalen-s-Geno-2-results has Neanderthal+Denisovan almost as high as mine and is from nowhere near India so I guess it happens somewhat randomly

Oh, my mistake, they refer to them as "West Indians". But these are just the HapMap-1000 Genomes Gujaratis. I think if one would find the midpoint for the Northern Caucasus and Gujarat, but with a bias towards the Northern Caucasus, I would end up in eastern Iran. If you do so for Tajikistan and Tamil Nadu, but with a bias towards Tajikistan, your spot would be in South-Central Rajasthan. But the Pamiri Tajiks are tricky, they really aren't Tajiks, as in sedentary Farsi-speakers. They speak East Iranian languages like Pashto, and they have no historical relationship to Tajiks in Tajikistan and Afghanistan. And genetically, they are rather different from actual Tajiks. Pamiri people seem to be significantly Northern European in terms of genetics. And they are less genetically South Asian than actual Tajiks. So, we need to place them quite north of Tajikistan. Instead of Tajikistan, we could use Southern Kazakhstan. That would place you in the Punjab!

Lol, I wish I could boast that kind of a percentage!

parasar
01-16-2014, 10:43 PM
Honestly, I'm not sure where the Russian samples were collected. Those are HGDP samples (both Russians and Karitiana).

Looks like Konosha, Russia.
Lon 40E Lat 61N
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1002765.s011

BMG
01-17-2014, 02:22 PM
And Gedrosia/Baloch is an Indian component right? And we also know it is one of the oldest, if not the oldest in South Asia, so why do you think Genographic Project is wrong?

They are being fully consistent with their migration map:
http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/attachment/35881.wss?fileId=ATTACH_FILE2&fileName=Geno%20Project%20Human%20Migration%20Map_ print.jpg
Southwest asian is more representative of ANI .It is an old component but defnitely not older than ASI .Anyway their explanation is wrong as they say the southeast asian is due to mixing with SEA people migrating to south asia while it is actually mostly ASI which they couldnt distinguish from southeast asian

BMG
01-17-2014, 02:31 PM
Speaking of which, what % Neanderthal/Denisovan are other South Asian users getting? Did any of you besides Sein take the test?
I think the neanderthal/denisovan percentage means really nothing .I know 8 geno 2.0 results of participants from my state including mine
they got the neanderthal % from least to most like this 1.1% 1.6% 1.8% 2.6% 2.9% 3.8% 4.2% 4.9% .
my results neanderthal 1.6% denisovan 2.6%

BMG
01-17-2014, 02:42 PM
I wouldn't call ASI East Eurasian but rather South Eurasian. It is marginally closer to West Eurasian but not close to either one.
Well i like the term south eurasians and i think we can aslo bring papuan and perhaps andaman(onge) components under it. Though they are distant when we look as fst values they are closer to each other than they are to either east and west eurasians

parasar
01-17-2014, 03:46 PM
Southwest asian is more representative of ANI .It is an old component but defnitely not older than ASI .Anyway their explanation is wrong as they say the southeast asian is due to mixing with SEA people migrating to south asia while it is actually mostly ASI which they couldnt distinguish from southeast asian

Maybe Nat Geo's SW Asian is tracking ancestral ASI (or an early ANI/ASI composite). It is difficult to compare components across different frames of reference, but we know that the Ongee are close to the ancient Eurasian hunter-gatherers.

So then we have a situation when two of three present components in Europe are potentially more related to the Ongee than they are to the third (Stuttgart).

In this scenario, WHG, ENA, and ANE would be ancestral ASI and EEF would be under ancestral ANI.

This is the scenario proposed by Lazaridis/Reich group:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YbYK8NzQNAY/UrihRsR5eSI/AAAAAAAAJbo/TYynaV4cO4Y/s1600/model.png

In the diagram above, after the initial 100000ybp African/Non-African split, the next split is between basal Eurasians and the rest. This could be the ancestral ASI (the rest) and ancestral ANI (basal Eurasian) that happened 50000ybp (figure below). Ancestral ASI component ASI left in South Asia got a later boost with the ANE and the Munda/Santhal influx.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SruWvZojfFI/AAAAAAAACAE/mIuTH40-zEQ/s1600/india.jpg
Please also see figure on page 40 where the ANE type component from the ancestral ASI side is seen coming into ANI side ["600 gens (proto-East Asia → proto-Europe)"]
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/extref/nature08365-s1.pdf

everest59
01-17-2014, 04:13 PM
How much ANE do the Georgians have? I think whatever excess ANE is being lumped as ASI. I would guess rather low ANE in the Georgians.
But I would imagine that WHG gets lumped with Onge as well. So the Lazaridis ancient samples data can't be downloaded yet?
Come to think of it now, it's pretty obvious that ASI at least in certain populations is a mix of real ASI, WHG and ANE. So the 31% ASI calculation for Sindhis is wrong.
So not everybody has the same ASI components. It depends on the group.

parasar
01-17-2014, 06:29 PM
How much ANE do the Georgians have? I think whatever excess ANE is being lumped as ASI. I would guess rather low ANE in the Georgians.
But I would imagine that WHG gets lumped with Onge as well. So the Lazaridis ancient samples data can't be downloaded yet?
Come to think of it now, it's pretty obvious that ASI at least in certain populations is a mix of real ASI, WHG and ANE. So the 31% ASI calculation for Sindhis is wrong.
So not everybody has the same ASI components. It depends on the group.

I agree. Reich and collaborators should revisit their simplistic two-way ANI/ASI modeling in light of what Eurasian ancient DNA is showing.

Dr_McNinja
01-22-2014, 03:25 AM
I noticed on the SNP results page for this FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J,Y-DNA_J/default.aspx?vgroup=Y-DNA_J%2cY-DNA_J&section=ysnp

There is a Kit grouped next to me when I sort by SNPs. Kit # N112927, name: Pradhan. I didn't notice it because there are no Y-STR tests done, looks like just Geno 2.0. It is J2b2 (J-M241) and has an almost identical SNP list to me except:

Mine says CYS8749+ (Fale positive, so we're the same), F2302+ (False positive, so we're the same), PF3514- (I am AA), and PF4499- (I had a no-call)

I looked up "Pradhan" and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pradhan


Pradhan (Devanagari: प्रधान) is a ministerial title used in regions of Hindu cultural tradition that equates to the more popular term Vizier in rank and function.[1][2] The Sanskrit pradhana translates to "major" or "prime";[3] however, the more modern Hindi definitions provided by the Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary also include "chief" and "leader".[4] The precise interpretation can differ significantly by region. The style was abandoned by many Indian princely states during the Mughal era in favor of Persian styles such as Wasir and Diwan.

"Pradhan" is also commonly employed as a Newar surname in the Newa (नेवा:) community of Nepal and is also currently used by the Kshatriya/Kayastha people of northern India.
Examples

Pradhan Mantri: Prime Ministr (Mantri is the root of Mandarin).
Pradhan Senadhipati: Chief of Staff ("Senadhipati" is an old Sanskrit style for a military leader, also used in Nepal for Commander-in-Chief).
Pradhan Senapati: Grand General (also translated as Chief of Staff)
In modern Nepal, Pradhan refers to the family name of people of the Newar community who trace their roots to northern and central India. Among the Newars, they follow Hinduism and are part of the highest tier "Chhathariya" (six-types) Syasyah (Shrestha) clan who are descendants of the Malla (Nepal) royalty and its nobility. The other family names of this group consist of the surnames Malla, Joshi, Rajbhandari, Maskey, and Amatya.[5] "Chhathariya" Syasyah are distinguised by the use of their clan or occupational titles (e.g., Pradhan, Rajbhandari) instead of the all-encompassing "Shrestha" name. Newar caste system stratifies them as belonging to the Kshatriya varna.[6][7]
Pradhan was the title of a Minister who sat on the Council of 8 (Ashta Pradhan) in the early Maratha Empire prior to Peshwa administration.o_O

I'm gonna e-mail the admins to encourage the user to get some Y-STR tests done.

BMG
01-22-2014, 04:53 PM
This guy mentions his location is from south of Mumbai .Could be a marathi .

newtoboard
01-22-2014, 05:04 PM
I think J2b2 is very old in South Asia and certainly not Greek or steepe IE in origins.

Dr_McNinja
04-30-2014, 11:47 AM
I've been busy the past month but will get time to experiment with Admixture again in a couple weeks. Just an update, my uncle's test came back Z94+ (just in time for the new haplotree fiasco at FTDNA). I have tests for L657 and Z2124 in progress. I would be surprised if he isn't L657 since his closest Y-STR matches in the Z93/Z94 group are L657 Arabs and it doesn't seem to resemble the non-L657 R1a in NW-India/Pakistan. One cool thing about the R1 haplogroup is how many additional subclades are known. I'll test Y6 and Y9 if it comes back positive. I'll be doing a Z2432 test (South Asian branch of J2b2/J-M241) for myself from YSEQ this month as well.

After bothering FTDNA a bit about my crazy Family Finder results (they gave me 40 all-European matches, including two 3rd cousins and seven 4th cousins), they just wiped the matches but didn't give any explanation. One thing I noticed is my FTDNA raw data has ~100 more matches in the 7cM+ range than my 23andMe raw data at Gedmatch (mostly non-South Asian). My kit numbers are M803613 for 23andMe raw data and FB6225 for FTDNA raw data. The top 7cM+ matches (250) are all autosomal for FTDNA raw data while 23andMe raw data's matches are only around 142 with 18 or so 7cM+ matches on the X chromosome (there's a distinct lack of X matches for FTDNA raw data).

My mom's kit for comparison is M052534 (tons of X matches, over a thousand, but like a dozen or two autosomal matches). Her results look different from what I remember, not sure what happened there. My brother in law (the G1*/H14a Gondal Jatt) is her highest after myself.

I'm interested to see what the new Population Finder is like which was supposed to be coming out this week.

Dr_McNinja
04-30-2014, 11:50 AM
Oh and 23andMe's Gene Comparison tool is still accessible, they apparently put it back up at some point after taking it down and just removed the link.

Dr_McNinja
05-02-2014, 02:18 AM
Wow that was fast. The last SNPs I ordered took like 4 months. The new set took less than 3 weeks. My uncle turned out to be L657. The next two I'll order are Y6 and Y7 (subclades of Y4 and Y9 which are not available).

Dr_McNinja
05-02-2014, 03:08 AM
I've been trying to keep this spreadsheet of South Asian tribal/clan and haplogroup affiliations updated:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdG8yX1hkLXNVbFVsR1JuOURBdnpad EE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

parasar
05-02-2014, 03:43 AM
I've been trying to keep this spreadsheet of South Asian tribal/clan and haplogroup affiliations updated:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdG8yX1hkLXNVbFVsR1JuOURBdnpad EE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Do we have any additional information on the Janjua and the Chibba as to their R1a1 type?
It would be interesting to see if they are related. Both have similar histories in that they were Brahmans who gave up priesthood. They claim to be descendants of the last Brahman rulers of Afghanistan and Sindh respectively and both had a connection to Mathura.

Dr_McNinja
05-02-2014, 04:01 AM
Do we have any additional information on the Janjua and the Chibba as to their R1a1 type?
It would be interesting to see if they are related. Both have similar histories in that they were Brahmans who gave up priesthood. They claim to be descendants of the last Brahman rulers of Afghanistan and Sindh respectively and both had a connection to Mathura.Unfortunately no because they were tested at 23andMe. I've seen that many Jatt/Rajput clans claim some kind of association with Janjua Rajputs so I'm skeptical these are all biological links in every case.

I found a third J2b2* (J-M241) Jatt on 23andMe. Their surname is either Ahluwalia or Chawla, not sure which is their paternal side just yet. Also completely by coincidence (I saw his name in a Countries of Ancestry match somewhere) I ran into HRP0350 there by coincidence (I'm HRP0349) and he's friends with HRP0353, the Gujjar Muslim. They're both from near Gujrat in Pakistani Punjab.

Interestingly ran into someone from Fiji who is of Indian ancestry. They registered 4% European on 23andMe's Ancestry Composition and this is their Dodecad K12b results:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=10

He's "V. Singh from Fiji". Look at the high Mediterranean and East Asian. I think it signifies some mixed ancestry from several generations back and his family has confirmed there was some non-Indian ancestry far back but they don't recall specifics. I think this includes partial European ancestry too. Their Caucasian is too low and South Asian too high to account for that much European plus they had some Irish 4th cousins showing up on 23andMe. I know some South Indians have some trace amounts of West European links but his ancestry is from Rajasthan in Western India, so it's even possible some of his South Asian and Caucasian are swapping.

parasar
05-02-2014, 03:04 PM
Unfortunately no because they were tested at 23andMe. I've seen that many Jatt/Rajput clans claim some kind of association with Janjua Rajputs so I'm skeptical these are all biological links in every case.


I agree. On the Chibber I have not been able to find any clear links connecting them to Chach and Dahir in Sindh, but their own poetry does mention a presence alongside a Dahar Mal.

Regarding the Janjua, they still carry the word Janju (thread) in their name and we have some independent historical notices:

Praise of God and the Prophet.—Panegyric upon Sultán Jalálu-d dín Fíróz Sháh Khiljí [1290 to 1296AD].—Concise account of the four victories of Fíróz Sháh ... “The Sháh received intelligence of that new disturbance, and how that Chhajjú was advancing expeditiously with the Hindú thieves. Outrageous like a male lion, he became greatly perturbed, and ex*claimed, in the violence of his anger, ‘Bravo! Is there any man in in the world who dares to raise dust in my plain? What weakness has that wretch seen in me, that he dares to peer where my arrow can penetrate? If he has not seen the splendour of my sword, he must have heard its renown from afar. He must have heard how from Ghazna, Kirmán, and Barghand, I have extended my conquests as far as Darband; how I have issued orders for the shedding of the blood of my enemies, who have become like worms, when they hear the whizzing of my Kirmání blade; how, at one time, from the heads of the Mughals [the Mongols attacked in 1292AD], I have filled my cup with blood, and stuck their inverted skulls upon the top of my standards; how, at another time, my spears have wounded the Afgháns, until the hills resounded with lamentations (afghán); how, at another time, I made the blood flow in Jánjúha, so that a boat might have glided within the hills of Júd. The Hindús themselves cannot conceive how full I have made hell. What did that ignorant thoughtless man imagine, that he dared advance his foot into my territory?’


Confirmed in the same location later by Babur:

Fourteen miles (7 kos) north of Bhira lies the mountain-range written of in the Zafar-namadind other books as the Koh-i-jud. I had not known why it was called this ; I now knew. On it dwell two tribes, descendants from one parent-source, one is called Jud, the other Janjuha. These two from of old have been the rulers and lawful commanders of the peoples and hordes ... of the range and of the country between Bhira and Nil-ab [indus] ... People call it Koh-i-jud through
connecting it with the Jud tribe. The principal headman gets the title of Rai ; others, his younger brothers and sons, are styled Malik ...


That parent source may well have been from Karnataka via Kanauj and Jodhpur. The Rashtrakuta of Manyakheta had captured the principal city of northern India - Kanauj - and were present in many locations in the north where they are now known as Rathore. Eg. "An inscription of queen Kumaradevi of Maharajadhiraja Govindachandra has been found at Saranatha from which we learn that she was the grand-daughter (daughter's daughter) of Mahana, the Rashtrakuta." One of the Rathore sub-division is possibly Gaharwar to which Govindachandra belonged, and indeed, one Janjua clan is called Gaharwal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjua#Main_branches

So it makes sense that when Griffin recorded the Janjua traditions they had recollections of a Rathore connection:

But the traditions of the Janjoahs themselves do not point to a very ancient occupancy of the Panjab. They all trace their descent from a Raja Mal, a descendant of the Pandus and of the Rahtor Rajput race, who about the year 980 A.D. emigrated to the Panjab from Jodhpur or Kanauj, which latter country was then ruled by a Rahtor Prince. Hearing that the Pandus had once taken shelter in the hills to the north of the Jhilam, he journeyed there with his followers and founded the village of Rajgarh, now famous under the name of Malot. There he ruled in peace till the invasion of India by Mahmud of Ghazni, when that monarch summoned him to his presence. Raja Mal refused to attend; so Mahmud sent a force against him, which defeated and took him prisoner; and, to save his life and regain his liberty, he was compelled to renounce his Hindu faith and adopt lslamism. The name of the tribe is said to have arisen from this conversion, when the janju, or thread worn by Raja Mal and all Hindus, and denoting his cast, was broken. The Janjoahs are unanimous in thus placing the advent of their great ancestor into the Panjab in the tenth century
http://books.google.com/books?id=YhFPAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA259




Interestingly ran into someone from Fiji who is of Indian ancestry. They registered 4% European on 23andMe's Ancestry Composition and this is their Dodecad K12b results:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=10

He's "V. Singh from Fiji". Look at the high Mediterranean and East Asian. I think it signifies some mixed ancestry from several generations back and his family has confirmed there was some non-Indian ancestry far back but they don't recall specifics. I think this includes partial European ancestry too. Their Caucasian is too low and South Asian too high to account for that much European plus they had some Irish 4th cousins showing up on 23andMe. I know some South Indians have some trace amounts of West European links but his ancestry is from Rajasthan in Western India, so it's even possible some of his South Asian and Caucasian are swapping.

Not the golfer by any chance!

Dr_McNinja
05-07-2014, 11:39 AM
Something weird's going on with my autosomal data at Gedmatch. My 23andMe matches over 7cM are down to 108 (down from 124), my FTDNA matches are up to 250 exactly (from ~240 something, so not much change, just a couple new additions).

Dr_McNinja
05-07-2014, 11:46 AM
Not the golfer by any chance!LOL, no.

So you think the Janjua Rajputs would have R1a lineages with Y-STR profiles in common with Southern Indian Brahmins perhaps?

parasar
05-08-2014, 03:27 AM
LOL, no.

So you think the Janjua Rajputs would have R1a lineages with Y-STR profiles in common with Southern Indian Brahmins perhaps?

I think among southern Brahmans there are two groups - one the Iyer and Iyengar - these I think are less likely to be like the Janjuas.
The second is the Konkan groups - Nambuthiri, Gaur, Chitpavan, Nagar, etc. - the Rajputs, including the Janjuas, are more likely to be related to this group.
It will be interesting to see how the L657 vs Z2124 distribution is between these two groups.

Plus we have to keep in mind that while the Rathore, whom the Janjua claim descent from, are indeed a Karnataka clan, in the correct early meaning of the word, Rathore did not represent a clan but an official title. How they coalesced into a clan is not clear.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XNxiN5tzKOgC&pg=PA280

Dr_McNinja
05-09-2014, 01:20 PM
I added an individual on 23andMe whose surnames are Sachdeva, Momi, and Machli. I've found Momi and Machli on a list of Kamboj surnames. They are Punjabi and list Sheikhupura which is where some of my mom's family is from. Do you recognize these names Parasar?

My current top Gene Comparison matches:


Uttar Pradesh Narain 76.03%
Uttar Pradesh Choudhary 76.03% (J2b2 / J-M241)
Uttar Pradesh Mughal 76.00% (J2b2 / J-M241)
Punjabi Jatt from Pakistan (Sandhu) 75.98%
Punjabi Jatt from Pakistan (Sandhu, mother of above) 75.97%
Bengali (is in my admixture charts) 75.97%
Punjabi Jatt (Grewal, Sapporo/HRP0341) 75.95%
The Sachdeva/Momi/Machli Punjabi person 75.95%
Pahari Jatt (HRP0283) 75.93%
Punjabi from Faisalabad 75.92%
Punjabi Jatt (Dhadwar) 75.91%
Maharashtra Konkanastha (Chitpavan?) Brahmin (Deshpande) 75.91% (He is R1a1a and M35b, says to ignore his surname because he was adopted)
Punjabi Jatt (Nijjar) 75.91%
Punjabi Jatt (Gill) 75.90%Thought the two J-M241 individuals at the top was interesting.

parasar
05-09-2014, 04:16 PM
I added an individual on 23andMe whose surnames are Sachdeva, Momi, and Machli. I've found Momi and Machli on a list of Kamboj surnames. They are Punjabi and list Sheikhupura which is where some of my mom's family is from. Do you recognize these names Parasar?

My current top Gene Comparison matches:

Thought the two J-M241 individuals at the top was interesting.

No, but the Machli looks to be a fisherman group akin to the Mohanna.

Dr_McNinja
05-28-2014, 05:19 PM
^ She was half Kamboj and half Khatri or Arora.

I added her Harappa DIY results to the autosomal charts:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=6

Dr_McNinja
05-28-2014, 05:20 PM
My uncle's kit came back as Y7+

Dr_McNinja
05-28-2014, 06:27 PM
A J2b2*/M33a cousin (4th to distant) showed up on my 23andMe relative finder (0.10%, 7cM) yesterday. No response yet.

Dr_McNinja
05-29-2014, 04:07 PM
My mtFull sequence test came back, FTDNA classifies us as M30 instead of M30b.

soulblighter
05-29-2014, 04:34 PM
I think among southern Brahmans there are two groups - one the Iyer and Iyengar - these I think are less likely to be like the Janjuas.
The second is the Konkan groups - Nambuthiri, Gaur, Chitpavan, Nagar, etc. - the Rajputs, including the Janjuas, are more likely to be related to this group.
It will be interesting to see how the L657 vs Z2124 distribution is between these two groups.

Plus we have to keep in mind that while the Rathore, whom the Janjua claim descent from, are indeed a Karnataka clan, in the correct early meaning of the word, Rathore did not represent a clan but an official title. How they coalesced into a clan is not clear.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XNxiN5tzKOgC&pg=PA280


OOT, I still haven't seen an L657 sample among Iyer/Iyengars.
These seem to extend to Karnataka Bhats as well, both of whom I know are Z2123.
I would guess the Deshasta Brahmins of Maharashtra would have Z2123 as well.
Pancha Gauda (L657) vs Pancha Dravida (Z2123)?

parasar
05-29-2014, 07:22 PM
OOT, I still haven't seen an L657 sample among Iyer/Iyengars.
These seem to extend to Karnataka Bhats as well, both of whom I know are Z2123.
I would guess the Deshasta Brahmins of Maharashtra would have Z2123 as well.
Pancha Gauda (L657) vs Pancha Dravida (Z2123)?

Yes some kind of a North-South distinction is possible (the Gurjara fall under the Dravida group, though) for Brahmins within India.
Underhill did not break down the by caste but the Nepali Hindus had the highest %age of L657/M780. Even the Nepali Tharus had a good amount.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg

Dr_McNinja
06-22-2014, 09:47 AM
MDLP-22 results for my mother:
Population
Pygmy -
West-Asian 33.96%
North-European-Mesolithic 2.78%
Indo-Tibetan 0.90%
Mesoamerican -
Arctic-Amerind -
South-America_Amerind -
Indian 35.58%
North-Siberean -
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 0.74%
Samoedic 3.38%
Indo-Iranian 7.79%
East-Siberean 0.25%
North-East-European 8.78%
South-African -
North-Amerind 2.01%
Sub-Saharian -
East-South-Asian 0.81%
Near_East 1.59%
Melanesian 1.14%
Paleo-Siberian -
Austronesian 0.22%For my father:
Population
Pygmy 0.31%
West-Asian 32.86%
North-European-Mesolithic 2.42%
Indo-Tibetan 1.81%
Mesoamerican 0.55%
Arctic-Amerind -
South-America_Amerind 0.22%
Indian 35.54%
North-Siberean -
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 3.43%
Samoedic 2.85%
Indo-Iranian 7.05%
East-Siberean 0.52%
North-East-European 5.69%
South-African -
North-Amerind 1.49%
Sub-Saharian -
East-South-Asian 0.34%
Near_East 2.09%
Melanesian 0.67%
Paleo-Siberian 1.45%
Austronesian 0.71%For me:
23andMe:

Population
Pygmy -
West-Asian 33.42%
North-European-Mesolithic 1.80%
Indo-Tibetan 2.76%
Mesoamerican 0.08%
Arctic-Amerind -
South-America_Amerind -
Indian 35.31%
North-Siberean -
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 1.83%
Samoedic 3.11%
Indo-Iranian 7.21%
East-Siberean 0.65%
North-East-European 7.33%
South-African -
North-Amerind 1.35%
Sub-Saharian -
East-South-Asian -
Near_East 1.48%
Melanesian 0.87%
Paleo-Siberian 1.42%
Austronesian 1.37%

FTDNA:

Population
Pygmy -
West-Asian 33.25%
North-European-Mesolithic 1.89%
Indo-Tibetan 2.76%
Mesoamerican -
Arctic-Amerind -
South-America_Amerind -
Indian 35.50%
North-Siberean -
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 2.11%
Samoedic 2.79%
Indo-Iranian 7.21%
East-Siberean 0.69%
North-East-European 7.08%
South-African -
North-Amerind 1.51%
Sub-Saharian -
East-South-Asian -
Near_East 1.47%
Melanesian 0.88%
Paleo-Siberian 1.48%
Austronesian 1.34%I have more Indo-Tibetan and Austronesian than both of them. Indo-Tibetan peaks in Northeast India. You can see maps for the components here: http://magnusducatus.blogspot.ca/2012/09/behind-curtains-mdlp-world-22-showcase.html

parasar
06-22-2014, 02:30 PM
MDLP-22 results for my mother:For my father: For me: I have more Indo-Tibetan and Austronesian than both of them. Indo-Tibetan peaks in Northeast India. You can see maps for the components here: http://magnusducatus.blogspot.ca/2012/09/behind-curtains-mdlp-world-22-showcase.html

My Indo-Tibetan and Austranesian is pretty much in the same range.



Pygmy -
West-Asian 30.41%
North-European-Mesolithic 2.20%
Indo-Tibetan 1.91%
Mesoamerican 0.07%
Arctic-Amerind 0.22%
South-America_Amerind 0.82%
Indian 37.96%
North-Siberean -
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 0.69%
Samoedic 1.72%
Indo-Iranian 7.67%
East-Siberean 0.08%
North-East-European 10.36%
South-African -
North-Amerind 0.80%
Sub-Saharian -
East-South-Asian 2.59%
Near_East 0.53%
Melanesian 0.06%
Paleo-Siberian 0.34%
Austronesian 1.56%

There is a sharp gradient from the E to NE India.
By the way, that Paleo-Siberian from what we now know from the Mal'ta boy, is clearly a misnomer.

Mehrdad
06-22-2014, 03:07 PM
Now I'm curious, when you gents calculate your admixture using Oracle-4 for MDLP, does it show your correct population mixtures or at least something close?

Sein
06-22-2014, 08:53 PM
Now I'm curious, when you gents calculate your admixture using Oracle-4 for MDLP, does it show your correct population mixtures or at least something close?

I guess it makes population genetic sense. My top two results:
1 Brahui + Hindu + Tadjik + Tadjik @ 4.203
2 Balochi + Jew_India + Tadjik + Tadjik @ 4.250

So, I'm apparently 50% Tajikistani Tajik, 25% Balochistani, and 25% "Hindu". The "Hindu" label is vague, I'm not sure which population it describes. I'm assuming this is some sort of North Indian population. Interestingly, this is quite similar to my "DNA Tribes" final iterative fit, which was:

Turkmen=45%
Kalash=26%
Gujarati=23%
Lithuanian=6%

Very similar, if we substitute Kalash for Brahui/Baloch, Turkmen for Tajik, and Gujarati for "Hindu".

Taking into account your complex/rich ancestry, your Oracle-4 results will make much more genealogical sense.

everest59
06-22-2014, 09:17 PM
Here's mine for comparison's sake:
1 Indian 33.43
2 West-Asian 30.55
3 North-East-European 8.79
4 Indo-Iranian 7.75
5 East-South-Asian 5.48
6 Samoedic 4.83
7 North-European-Mesolithic 2.88
8 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 2.4
9 Indo-Tibetan 1.71
10 North-Amerind 1.47
11 Austronesian 0.49
12 Melanesian 0.22


I guess the East-South Asian is Tibeto-Burman.
In my case, the Oracle makes sense, but it does not represent my Admixture.
1 50% Burusho +25% Indian +25% Tadjik @ 3.870
2 50% Tadjik +25% Hindu +25% Indian @ 4.461
3 50% Hindu +25% Tadjik +25% Tadjik @ 4.973
4 50% Tadjik +25% Hindu +25% Hindu @ 4.973
5 50% Indian +25% Lak +25% Tadjik @ 5.403

The Tadjik is usually there to fit my Tibeto-Burman, which is anywhere from 5-10%.

Sein
06-22-2014, 09:27 PM
Here's mine for comparison's sake:
1 Indian 33.43
2 West-Asian 30.55
3 North-East-European 8.79
4 Indo-Iranian 7.75
5 East-South-Asian 5.48
6 Samoedic 4.83
7 North-European-Mesolithic 2.88
8 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 2.4
9 Indo-Tibetan 1.71
10 North-Amerind 1.47
11 Austronesian 0.49
12 Melanesian 0.22


I guess the East-South Asian is Tibeto-Burman.
In my case, the Oracle makes sense, but it does not represent my Admixture.
1 50% Burusho +25% Indian +25% Tadjik @ 3.870
2 50% Tadjik +25% Hindu +25% Indian @ 4.461
3 50% Hindu +25% Tadjik +25% Tadjik @ 4.973
4 50% Tadjik +25% Hindu +25% Hindu @ 4.973
5 50% Indian +25% Lak +25% Tadjik @ 5.403

The Tadjik is usually there to fit my Tibeto-Burman, which is anywhere from 5-10%.

Very interesting.

Here are the raw-values for myself:

West-Asian=38.85%
Indian=24.63%
North-East-European=7.77%
Indo-Iranian=6.96%
Samoedic=5.03%
Near_East=4.06%
North-European-Mesolithic=3.09%
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic=2.52%
Indo-Tibetan=2.02%
North-Amerind=1.43%
Paleo-Siberian=0.9%
Austronesian=0.89%
South-America_Amerind=0.79%
East-South-Asian=0.69%
North-Siberean=0.18%
Melanesian=0.1%
Mesoamerican=0.07%

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.2% Pathan (derived) + 8.8% Palestinian (derived) @ 3.86
2 92.3% Pathan (derived) + 7.7% Egyptian (derived) @ 3.87
3 90.8% Pathan (derived) + 9.2% Jordanian (derived) @ 3.87
4 93.1% Pathan (derived) + 6.9% Bedouin (derived) @ 3.89
5 93.4% Pathan (derived) + 6.6% Jew_Yemen (derived) @ 3.94
6 91.9% Pathan (derived) + 8.1% Samaritian (derived) @ 3.94
7 93.2% Pathan (derived) + 6.8% Saudi (derived) @ 3.97
8 91.9% Pathan (derived) + 8.1% Jew_Libya (derived) @ 3.98
9 89.9% Pathan (derived) + 10.1% Syrian (derived) @ 3.99
10 90.2% Pathan (derived) + 9.8% Lebanese (derived) @ 4.01
11 91.9% Pathan (derived) + 8.1% Yemen (derived) @ 4.02
12 91.9% Pathan (derived) + 8.1% Jew_Tunisia (derived) @ 4.06
13 89.1% Pathan (derived) + 10.9% Iraqi (derived) @ 4.07
14 94% Pathan (derived) + 6% Mozabite (derived) @ 4.1
15 92% Pathan (derived) + 8% Jew_Morocco (derived) @ 4.12
16 90.9% Pathan (derived) + 9.1% Druze (derived) @ 4.12
17 92.1% Pathan (derived) + 7.9% Jew_Algeria (derived) @ 4.14
18 90.7% Pathan (derived) + 9.3% Costanoan (derived) @ 4.14
19 91.3% Pathan (derived) + 8.7% Jew_Syria (derived) @ 4.15
20 94.2% Pathan (derived) + 5.8% Moroccan (derived) @ 4.17

Basically, 90% Pashtun with the addition of 10% Near Eastern/Southwest Asian.

everest59
06-22-2014, 09:34 PM
Interesting.
So I guess there is a difference between actual Tibetans and Tibeto-Burmans. I think in Nepal, the Sherpas would probably be Tibetans, whereas the Magars, Rais, Limbus (the so-called Kirats) are Tibeto-Burmans. The Tibetans I think fit as a mixture between the Sherpas and Han Chinese.
I have always assumed this to be the case. My Tibetan seems to be rather similar to everybody else.

Shaikorth
06-22-2014, 09:35 PM
Genetiker ran MA-1 through this:

MDLP World-22

31.00% North-East-European
14.44% Samoedic
12.62% Indian
12.40% North-Amerind
8.99% Indo-Iranian
7.21% Mesoamerican
4.75% West-Asian
3.96% North-European-Mesolithic
1.96% Sub-Saharian
1.57% South-America_Amerind
1.03% Arctic-Amerind
0.07% Austronesian
0.00% Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic
0.00% East-Siberean
0.00% East-South-Asian
0.00% Indo-Tibetan
0.00% Melanesian
0.00% Near_East
0.00% North-Siberean
0.00% Paleo-Siberian
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% South-African

everest59
06-22-2014, 09:42 PM
I think Genetiker used the Dienekes calculator directly instead of creating Zombies like I did. It's probably faster, and also means all you need to do is change the format of the Ma-1 PED file so that the calculator accepts it. It is something I was planning on doing. Shouldn't be too difficult. This would mean I can use all the calculators publicly available.
I have been trying to convert the Thracian samples, but the SRA toolkit program seems to be broken for me.

Sein
06-22-2014, 09:42 PM
Interesting.
So I guess there is a difference between actual Tibetans and Tibeto-Burmans. I think in Nepal, the Sherpas would probably be Tibetans, whereas the Magars, Rais, Limbus (the so-called Kirats) are Tibeto-Burmans. The Tibetans I think fit as a mixture between the Sherpas and Han Chinese.
I have always assumed this to be the case. My Tibetan seems to be rather similar to everybody else.

Nepal looks like a very dynamic place in terms of cultural interaction and genetic mixture. The question that I've always had is namely, when did Indo-Aryan populations from further south/west enter this region?

Shaikorth
06-22-2014, 09:46 PM
I think Genetiker used the Dienekes calculator directly instead of creating Zombies like I did. It's probably faster, and also means all you need to do is change the format of the Ma-1 PED file so that the calculator accepts it. It is something I was planning on doing. Shouldn't be too difficult. This would mean I can use all the calculators publicly available.
I have been trying to convert the Thracian samples, but the SRA toolkit program seems to be broken for me.

He likely did the same with MDLP calculator, DIY version has been long available. That would mean MA-1's results are calculator effected, but comparable to the results of those not in that project who also are.

everest59
06-22-2014, 09:48 PM
Nepal looks like a very dynamic place in terms of cultural interaction and genetic mixture. The question that I've always had is namely, when did Indo-Aryan populations from further south/west enter this region?

Good question. I found a book written in the 19th century by someone whose name sounds British. Start from page 37.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AtMuAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA39&dq=khas&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-E2nU7j-PNGsyATK-YDwBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=khas&f=false

Rather negative against Nepalis if you ask me. LOL.
He is suggesting that the Brahmins fled the plains during the Muslim conquest of India. It's something hard to verify, but there may be some truth.
The other question is, where did we come from? West? South? I have no idea to be honest. We are not indigenous to this country. That's pretty obvious. Some say we came from Rajasthan. No way to verify that either. A book written by an uncle of mine says we hail from Kannauj in Uttar Pradesh.

Sein
06-22-2014, 10:06 PM
Good question. I found a book written in the 19th century by someone whose name sounds British. Start from page 37.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AtMuAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA39&dq=khas&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-E2nU7j-PNGsyATK-YDwBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=khas&f=false

Rather negative against Nepalis if you ask me. LOL.
He is suggesting that the Brahmins fled the plains during the Muslim conquest of India. It's something hard to verify, but there may be some truth.
The other question is, where did we come from? West? South? I have no idea to be honest. We are not indigenous to this country. That's pretty obvious. Some say we came from Rajasthan. No way to verify that either. A book written by an uncle of mine says we hail from Kannauj in Uttar Pradesh.

LOL, a lot of these western authors from the 19th century had an annoyingly bad habit of writing messed up analyses on people from outside of Europe.

Do Nepali Brahmins have a special genealogical connection (theoretically) to any specific group of Brahmins in India? That might tip the balance in favor of either Rajasthan or Kannauj.

Mehrdad
06-22-2014, 10:17 PM
This is mine, but I guess due to my mixed ancestry, its not really showing a correct correlation to my ancestry. I'm thinking the Burusho has to do with ancestry from those tribal regions. The East Asian, Han et al. has to do with my Polynesian heritage and the Austronesian and Australian perhaps correlate to my Melanesian side.


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Burusho @ 36.328
2 Hazara @ 36.377
3 Uygur @ 37.777
4 Uzbek @ 38.112
5 Jew_India @ 40.003
6 Pathan @ 41.153
7 Turkmen @ 41.475
8 Sindhi @ 41.586
9 Australian @ 41.678
10 Roma @ 43.431
276 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Australian +50% Burusho @ 20.328
2 50% Australian +50% Jew_India @ 20.554
3 50% Australian +50% Hindu @ 21.502
4 50% Australian +50% Indian @ 21.650
5 50% Australian +50% Pathan @ 22.540
6 50% Australian +50% Sindhi @ 23.137
7 50% Australian +50% Balochi @ 24.309
8 50% Australian +50% Hazara @ 24.867
9 50% Australian +50% Pashtun @ 24.947
10 50% Australian +50% Uygur @ 25.716
38226 iterations.



Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Jew_India +25% Burma +25% Papuan @ 13.405
2 50% Jew_India +25% Khmer +25% Papuan @ 13.497
3 50% Jew_India +25% Indian_East +25% Papuan @ 13.663
4 50% Jew_India +25% Indian-East +25% Papuan @ 13.714
5 50% Jew_India +25% Austronesian +25% Khmer @ 13.751
6 50% Jew_India +25% Austronesian +25% Burma @ 13.785
7 50% Jew_India +25% Papuan +25% Yizu @ 13.930
8 50% Jew_India +25% Han +25% Papuan @ 13.953
9 50% Jew_India +25% Naxi +25% Papuan @ 13.969
10 50% Jew_India +25% Austronesian +25% Indian-East @ 14.013
5166358 iterations.



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Burma + Burusho + Hindu + Papuan @ 12.568
2 Balochi + Burma + Indian + Papuan @ 12.600
3 Burma + Indian + Papuan + Pashtun @ 12.615
4 Burma + Indian + Papuan + Pathan @ 12.688
5 Burma + Indian + Makrani + Papuan @ 12.709
6 Hindu + Khmer + Papuan + Sindhi @ 12.716
7 Burma + Hindu + Papuan + Sindhi @ 12.724
8 Brahui + Burma + Indian + Papuan @ 12.731
9 Burma + Burusho + Indian + Papuan @ 12.771
10 Burusho + Hindu + Khmer + Papuan @ 12.773
11 Burma + Indian + Papuan + Sindhi @ 12.809
12 Burma + Hindu + Papuan + Pathan @ 12.830
13 Indian + Indian_East + Papuan + Sindhi @ 12.830
14 Hindu + Khmer + Papuan + Pathan @ 12.872
15 Balochi + Indian + Indian_East + Papuan @ 12.882
16 Hindu + Indian-East + Papuan + Sindhi @ 12.899
17 Indian + Indian_East + Papuan + Pathan @ 12.903
18 Burusho + Indian + Indian_East + Papuan @ 12.911
19 Austronesian + Burma + Burusho + Hindu @ 12.953
20 Austronesian + Balochi + Burma + Indian @ 12.971

Sein
06-22-2014, 10:29 PM
This is mine, but I guess due to my mixed ancestry, its not really showing a correct correlation to my ancestry. I'm thinking the Burusho has to do with ancestry from those tribal regions. The East Asian, Han et al. has to do with my Polynesian heritage and the Austronesian and Australian perhaps correlate to my Melanesian side.

Those are some extremely interesting results!

I think the ones with three populations are the most accurate.

Mehrdad
06-22-2014, 10:47 PM
Not too sure about the Jew_India admixture, it could be reading it for something else?

Sein
06-22-2014, 10:53 PM
Not too sure about the Jew_India admixture, it could be reading it for something else?

That's a very good point. Indian Jews tend to display strong signals of admixture from the eastern Mediterranean and southwestern Asia, but their levels of "South Asian-specific" ancestry are comparable to people from northwestern India. So, your South Asian ancestry turns out to be closest to them, since your South Asian ancestry is a mix of Pashtun and north Indian.

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2014, 12:14 AM
Oracle-4 from MDLP-22 for me and my parents:

Me:
Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Burusho @ 9.402
2 Sindhi @ 11.268
3 Pathan @ 11.483
4 Jew_India @ 14.691
5 Balochi @ 18.593
6 Pashtun @ 20.417
7 Makrani @ 23.539
8 Brahui @ 24.094
9 Hindu @ 24.151
10 Parsi @ 25.785
276 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Hindu +50% Pashtun @ 4.378
2 50% Hindu +50% Tadjik @ 5.350
3 50% Jew_India +50% Pathan @ 6.207
4 50% Burusho +50% Jew_India @ 6.558
5 50% Hindu +50% Pathan @ 7.895
6 50% Jew_India +50% Pashtun @ 7.920
7 50% Indian +50% Pashtun @ 8.327
8 50% Hindu +50% Makrani @ 8.482
9 50% Balochi +50% Hindu @ 8.622
10 50% Burusho +50% Sindhi @ 8.658
38226 iterations.



Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Hindu +25% Pashtun +25% Tadjik @ 3.670
2 50% Hindu +25% Brahui +25% Tadjik @ 3.909
3 50% Hindu +25% Balochi +25% Tadjik @ 4.106
4 50% Hindu +25% Makrani +25% Tadjik @ 4.119
5 50% Hindu +25% Burusho +25% Lezgin @ 4.168
6 50% Hindu +25% Burusho +25% Lak @ 4.169
7 50% Hindu +25% Burusho +25% Tabassaran @ 4.181
8 50% Pathan +25% Indian +25% Pathan @ 4.364
9 50% Hindu +25% Pashtun +25% Pashtun @ 4.378
10 50% Pashtun +25% Hindu +25% Hindu @ 4.378
1132989 iterations.



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Hindu + Hindu + Pashtun + Tadjik @ 3.670
2 Hindu + Jew_India + Pathan + Tadjik @ 3.814
3 Brahui + Hindu + Hindu + Tadjik @ 3.909
4 Burusho + Hindu + Jew_India + Tadjik @ 4.069
5 Balochi + Hindu + Hindu + Tadjik @ 4.106
6 Hindu + Hindu + Makrani + Tadjik @ 4.119
7 Burusho + Hindu + Hindu + Lezgin @ 4.168
8 Burusho + Hindu + Hindu + Lak @ 4.169
9 Burusho + Hindu + Hindu + Tabassaran @ 4.181
10 Indian + Pathan + Pathan + Pathan @ 4.364
11 Hindu + Hindu + Pashtun + Pashtun @ 4.378
12 Burusho + Hindu + Pathan + Pathan @ 4.396
13 Avar + Burusho + Hindu + Hindu @ 4.404
14 Hindu + Jew_India + Sindhi + Tadjik @ 4.528
15 Burusho + Chechen + Hindu + Hindu @ 4.564
16 Indian + Pathan + Sindhi + Tadjik @ 4.641
17 Hindu + Hindu + Parsi + Tadjik @ 4.643
18 Hindu + Jew_India + Pashtun + Pathan @ 4.660
19 Indian + Pashtun + Pathan + Pathan @ 4.675
20 Indian + Brahui + Tadjik + Tadjik @ 4.695Mother:
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Burusho @ 9.018
2 Pathan @ 10.903
3 Sindhi @ 11.148
4 Jew_India @ 15.583
5 Balochi @ 18.385
6 Pashtun @ 20.233
7 Makrani @ 23.543
8 Brahui @ 23.901
9 Hindu @ 24.339
10 Parsi @ 26.118
276 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Hindu +50% Pashtun @ 4.473
2 50% Hindu +50% Tadjik @ 5.144
3 50% Jew_India +50% Pathan @ 6.749
4 50% Burusho +50% Jew_India @ 7.278
5 50% Hindu +50% Pathan @ 7.773
6 50% Burusho +50% Sindhi @ 8.371
7 50% Indian +50% Pashtun @ 8.403
8 50% Jew_India +50% Pashtun @ 8.514
9 50% Balochi +50% Hindu @ 8.664
10 50% Brahui +50% Hindu @ 8.691
38226 iterations.



Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Pathan +25% Indian +25% Pathan @ 3.437
2 50% Hindu +25% Pashtun +25% Tadjik @ 3.579
3 50% Pathan +25% Burusho +25% Hindu @ 3.655
4 50% Hindu +25% Brahui +25% Tadjik @ 3.765
5 50% Pathan +25% Hindu +25% Pathan @ 3.981
6 50% Pathan +25% Indian +25% Pashtun @ 4.000
7 50% Hindu +25% Balochi +25% Tadjik @ 4.018
8 50% Hindu +25% Burusho +25% Tabassaran @ 4.191
9 50% Hindu +25% Burusho +25% Lak @ 4.221
10 50% Hindu +25% Avar +25% Burusho @ 4.246
1127410 iterations.



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Indian + Pathan + Pathan + Pathan @ 3.437
2 Hindu + Hindu + Pashtun + Tadjik @ 3.579
3 Burusho + Hindu + Pathan + Pathan @ 3.655
4 Brahui + Hindu + Hindu + Tadjik @ 3.765
5 Hindu + Pathan + Pathan + Pathan @ 3.981
6 Indian + Pashtun + Pathan + Pathan @ 4.000
7 Balochi + Hindu + Hindu + Tadjik @ 4.018
8 Indian + Pathan + Sindhi + Tadjik @ 4.093
9 Hindu + Jew_India + Pathan + Tadjik @ 4.120
10 Burusho + Hindu + Hindu + Tabassaran @ 4.191
11 Burusho + Hindu + Hindu + Lak @ 4.221
12 Avar + Burusho + Hindu + Hindu @ 4.246
13 Burusho + Indian + Pathan + Pathan @ 4.251
14 Burusho + Burusho + Hindu + Pathan @ 4.253
15 Hindu + Hindu + Makrani + Tadjik @ 4.268
16 Indian + Brahui + Tadjik + Tadjik @ 4.273
17 Burusho + Indian + Pashtun + Pathan @ 4.339
18 Burusho + Hindu + Hindu + Lezgin @ 4.472
19 Hindu + Hindu + Pashtun + Pashtun @ 4.473
20 Hindu + Hindu + Pathan + Tadjik @ 4.473Father:
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Burusho @ 10.352
2 Sindhi @ 10.870
3 Pathan @ 12.386
4 Jew_India @ 12.718
5 Balochi @ 18.702
6 Pashtun @ 21.071
7 Hindu @ 23.394
8 Makrani @ 23.645
9 Brahui @ 24.179
10 Parsi @ 25.454
276 iterations.



Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Hindu +50% Pashtun @ 3.839
2 50% Jew_India +50% Pathan @ 4.720
3 50% Burusho +50% Jew_India @ 5.035
4 50% Hindu +50% Tadjik @ 6.487
5 50% Jew_India +50% Pashtun @ 7.018
6 50% Hindu +50% Pathan @ 7.425
7 50% Hindu +50% Makrani @ 7.514
8 50% Indian +50% Pashtun @ 7.577
9 50% Balochi +50% Hindu @ 7.641
10 50% Brahui +50% Hindu @ 7.723
38226 iterations.



Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Pashtun +25% Indian +25% Jew_India @ 3.727
2 50% Hindu +25% Brahui +25% Tadjik @ 3.747
3 50% Pashtun +25% Hindu +25% Jew_India @ 3.829
4 50% Hindu +25% Pashtun +25% Pashtun @ 3.839
5 50% Pashtun +25% Hindu +25% Hindu @ 3.839
6 50% Hindu +25% Parsi +25% Tadjik @ 3.880
7 50% Hindu +25% Balochi +25% Tadjik @ 3.951
8 50% Hindu +25% Makrani +25% Tadjik @ 3.994
9 50% Hindu +25% Burusho +25% Chechen @ 4.046
10 50% Hindu +25% Burusho +25% Lezgin @ 4.062
1095991 iterations.



Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Hindu + Jew_India + Pashtun + Pathan @ 3.372
2 Hindu + Jew_India + Sindhi + Tadjik @ 3.393
3 Hindu + Jew_India + Pathan + Tadjik @ 3.626
4 Burusho + Hindu + Jew_India + Pashtun @ 3.665
5 Indian + Jew_India + Pashtun + Pashtun @ 3.727
6 Brahui + Hindu + Hindu + Tadjik @ 3.747
7 Burusho + Hindu + Jew_India + Tadjik @ 3.803
8 Hindu + Jew_India + Pashtun + Pashtun @ 3.829
9 Hindu + Hindu + Pashtun + Pashtun @ 3.839
10 Hindu + Hindu + Parsi + Tadjik @ 3.880
11 Balochi + Hindu + Hindu + Tadjik @ 3.951
12 Hindu + Hindu + Makrani + Tadjik @ 3.994
13 Burusho + Chechen + Hindu + Hindu @ 4.046
14 Burusho + Hindu + Hindu + Lezgin @ 4.062
15 Hindu + Hindu + Kumyk + Sindhi @ 4.190
16 Burusho + Hindu + Hindu + Georgian @ 4.193
17 Azeri + Hindu + Hindu + Pathan @ 4.214
18 Balochi + Hindu + Jew_India + Tadjik @ 4.228
19 Chechen + Hindu + Hindu + Sindhi @ 4.230
20 Hindu + Hindu + Pashtun + Tadjik @ 4.241I had the worst genetic distance to my best fit.

After seeing my father's results, I dunno, it just feels like there's this chameleon-like admixture that the academic community hasn't researched too well yet that keeps getting thrown around. I think it's ancient but time will tell (and hopefully ancient remains from South Asia one day).

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2014, 12:28 AM
^ What's the difference between Pashtun and Pathan in the MDLP Oracle?

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2014, 12:30 AM
Our normal oracle results are more similar:

me:


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Burusho (derived) 8.64
2 Pathan (derived) 10.49
3 Sindhi (derived) 10.66
4 Jew_India (derived) 12.86
5 Balochi (derived) 16.67
6 Pashtun (derived) 18.24
7 Hindu (derived) 21.13
8 Brahui (derived) 21.45
9 Makrani (derived) 21.48
10 Parsi (derived) 23.11
11 Tadjik (derived) 24.46
12 Roma (derived) 27.69
13 Indian (derived) 29.4
14 Turkmen (derived) 29.56
15 Uzbek (derived) 33.16
16 Hazara (derived) 35.23
17 Iranian (derived) 35.35
18 Azeri (derived) 36.75
19 Nogai (derived) 36.85
20 Kumyk (derived) 37.2

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.8% Pashtun (derived) + 46.2% Hindu (derived) @ 3.69
2 75.2% Pathan (derived) + 24.8% Indian (derived) @ 4.24
3 68.4% Pathan (derived) + 31.6% Hindu (derived) @ 4.29
4 78.5% Pashtun (derived) + 21.5% Indian (ancestral) @ 4.4
5 87.4% Pathan (derived) + 12.6% Indian (ancestral) @ 4.75
6 53.8% Hindu (derived) + 46.2% Tadjik (derived) @ 4.76
7 65.3% Hindu (derived) + 34.7% Lak (derived) @ 4.77
8 65.2% Hindu (derived) + 34.8% Lezgin (derived) @ 4.89
9 65.1% Hindu (derived) + 34.9% Tabassaran (derived) @ 4.91
10 66.1% Hindu (derived) + 33.9% Avar (derived) @ 5.17
11 63.1% Burusho (derived) + 36.9% Jew_India (derived) @ 5.24
12 75% Burusho (derived) + 25% Hindu (derived) @ 5.31
13 56.5% Pathan (derived) + 43.5% Jew_India (derived) @ 5.49
14 65.5% Hindu (derived) + 34.5% Chechen (derived) @ 5.53
15 90.8% Burusho (derived) + 9.2% Indian (ancestral) @ 5.61
16 65.7% Hindu (derived) + 34.3% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 5.94
17 64.4% Hindu (derived) + 35.6% Kumyk (derived) @ 5.96
18 82.5% Burusho (derived) + 17.5% Indian (derived) @ 6.1
19 66.2% Hindu (derived) + 33.8% Ossetian (derived) @ 6.16
20 67.7% Jew_India (derived) + 32.3% Tadjik (derived) @ 6.2Mother:


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Burusho (derived) 7.88
2 Pathan (derived) 9.61
3 Sindhi (derived) 10.45
4 Jew_India (derived) 13.92
5 Balochi (derived) 16.27
6 Pashtun (derived) 17.81
7 Brahui (derived) 21.08
8 Makrani (derived) 21.26
9 Hindu (derived) 21.53
10 Parsi (derived) 23.25
11 Tadjik (derived) 23.88
12 Roma (derived) 28.79
13 Indian (derived) 29.76
14 Turkmen (derived) 29.78
15 Uzbek (derived) 33.36
16 Hazara (derived) 35.31
17 Iranian (derived) 35.74
18 Nogai (derived) 36.95
19 Azeri (derived) 37.12
20 Kumyk (derived) 37.33

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76.5% Pathan (derived) + 23.5% Indian (derived) @ 3.1
2 70.3% Pathan (derived) + 29.7% Hindu (derived) @ 3.36
3 54.9% Pashtun (derived) + 45.1% Hindu (derived) @ 3.58
4 88% Pathan (derived) + 12% Indian (ancestral) @ 3.64
5 79% Pashtun (derived) + 21% Indian (ancestral) @ 4.22
6 52.7% Hindu (derived) + 47.3% Tadjik (derived) @ 4.3
7 77% Burusho (derived) + 23% Hindu (derived) @ 4.77
8 91.4% Burusho (derived) + 8.6% Indian (ancestral) @ 4.96
9 64.7% Hindu (derived) + 35.3% Lak (derived) @ 4.97
10 64.5% Hindu (derived) + 35.5% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.04
11 65.4% Hindu (derived) + 34.6% Avar (derived) @ 5.17
12 64.7% Hindu (derived) + 35.3% Lezgin (derived) @ 5.35
13 69% Burusho (derived) + 31% Jew_India (derived) @ 5.37
14 83.8% Burusho (derived) + 16.2% Indian (derived) @ 5.51
15 62% Pathan (derived) + 38% Jew_India (derived) @ 5.59
16 65.3% Hindu (derived) + 34.7% Chechen (derived) @ 6.42
17 73.9% Tadjik (derived) + 26.1% Indian (ancestral) @ 6.77
18 65.4% Jew_India (derived) + 34.6% Tadjik (derived) @ 6.93
19 64.3% Hindu (derived) + 35.7% Kumyk (derived) @ 7.07
20 56.8% Indian (derived) + 43.2% Lak (derived) @ 7.15Father:
Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Burusho (derived) 8.81
2 Sindhi (derived) 10.5
3 Pathan (derived) 10.9
4 Jew_India (derived) 11.61
5 Balochi (derived) 16.66
6 Pashtun (derived) 18.43
7 Hindu (derived) 20.9
8 Makrani (derived) 21.34
9 Brahui (derived) 21.44
10 Parsi (derived) 22.62
11 Tadjik (derived) 24.75
12 Roma (derived) 26.7
13 Indian (derived) 28.99
14 Turkmen (derived) 29.24
15 Uzbek (derived) 32.98
16 Iranian (derived) 34.68
17 Hazara (derived) 35.08
18 Azeri (derived) 36.21
19 Nogai (derived) 36.74
20 Kumyk (derived) 37

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.2% Pashtun (derived) + 46.8% Hindu (derived) @ 3.55
2 78.2% Pashtun (derived) + 21.8% Indian (ancestral) @ 4.1
3 58.2% Burusho (derived) + 41.8% Jew_India (derived) @ 4.15
4 74.1% Pathan (derived) + 25.9% Indian (derived) @ 4.29
5 65.5% Hindu (derived) + 34.5% Lezgin (derived) @ 4.43
6 65.6% Hindu (derived) + 34.4% Lak (derived) @ 4.48
7 51.9% Pathan (derived) + 48.1% Jew_India (derived) @ 4.57
8 67.3% Pathan (derived) + 32.7% Hindu (derived) @ 4.6
9 69.6% Jew_India (derived) + 30.4% Tadjik (derived) @ 4.69
10 65.6% Hindu (derived) + 34.4% Chechen (derived) @ 4.69
11 65.4% Hindu (derived) + 34.6% Tabassaran (derived) @ 4.72
12 65.6% Hindu (derived) + 34.4% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 4.86
13 64.3% Hindu (derived) + 35.7% Kumyk (derived) @ 4.88
14 54.4% Hindu (derived) + 45.6% Tadjik (derived) @ 4.89
15 66.1% Hindu (derived) + 33.9% Ossetian (derived) @ 4.97
16 87% Pathan (derived) + 13% Indian (ancestral) @ 5.05
17 62.9% Jew_India (derived) + 37.1% Pashtun (derived) @ 5.07
18 74.1% Burusho (derived) + 25.9% Hindu (derived) @ 5.28
19 66.5% Hindu (derived) + 33.5% Georgian (derived) @ 5.3
20 66.6% Hindu (derived) + 33.4% Avar (derived) @ 5.36

everest59
06-23-2014, 01:10 AM
LOL, a lot of these western authors from the 19th century had an annoyingly bad habit of writing messed up analyses on people from outside of Europe.

Do Nepali Brahmins have a special genealogical connection (theoretically) to any specific group of Brahmins in India? That might tip the balance in favor of either Rajasthan or Kannauj.

Yeah, we are supposed to be Kanyakubja Brahmins (essentially means from the Kannauj region).
There are a lot of rumors though. Don't know what to believe.

DMXX
06-23-2014, 01:36 AM
^ What's the difference between Pashtun and Pathan in the MDLP Oracle?

Pathan would correspond to the HGDP Kurram valley Pashtuns from Pakistan, whereas Pashtun refers to the recent Afghan samples.

I thought only Eurogenes made use of the Afghan Pashtuns, but given the Tadjik population's present in that list, that thought obviously requires correction.

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2014, 02:55 AM
Yeah, we are supposed to be Kanyakubja Brahmins (essentially means from the Kannauj region).
There are a lot of rumors though. Don't know what to believe.I'd believe it. The main difference I'd expect between Nepali and UP Brahmins would be some NE-Asian-like admixture in the former.

However, when I did that spreadsheet sort, the Nepali Brahmins (you and someone else) showed up as essentially just outside the vicinity of Haryana and Western Uttar Pradesh. Likewise, Punjabi and Rajasthani Brahmins (and Kashmiri ones) were shifted east to that same area, Haryana and western Uttar Pradesh. For whatever reason, a lot of the Brahmins from this area seem to gravitate towards that area.

So this is one case where tradition is probably on to something.

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2014, 04:02 AM
I've noticed in some components in some calculators I'm close to an average of my parents, the usual result with "stable" admixture (what I've seen happen in most other parent/child admixture results). In most, however, I'm not. In Harappa it's almost every component where I'm not even close to an average except Caucasian/Amerindian.

You can see the admixture here: :http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2551-Experimentation-with-TreeMix-Software&p=43385&viewfull=1#post43385

I've just noticed something. If you take all S-Indian above 30% (I picked 30% for being a decent average of Jatts and other NW-Indians) and add it to NE-Euro, then I'm an average of that.

Mom: (34.94%-30%) = 4.94% + 10.51% = 15.45%
Father: (37.31%-30%) = 7.31% + 10.19% = 17.5%
Me: (37.09%-30%) = 7.09% + 9.51% = 16.6% (average of 15.45% and 17.5% is 16.5%)

And if you average Baloch+Siberian+American+Beringian, I'm an average again.

Mom: 37.30+0.97+1.31+1.06 = 40.64%
Father: 34.64+1.03+0.88+1.29 = 37.84%
Me: 34.88+1.62+1.01+1.71 = 39.22% (average of 40.64% and 37.84% is 39.24%)

It's somewhat in the ballpark if you use Mediterranean and SW-Asian:

Mom: 0.36+1.36 = 1.72%
Father: 1.39+2.22 = 3.61%
Me: 1.24+1.21 = 2.45% (average of 1.72% and 3.61% is 2.67%)

I don't think Mediterranean and SW-Asian are necessarily linked but to admixture, they could be.

I'm not sure why the arctic components track Baloch here like that. It doesn't work with NE-Euro.

If I sort Harappa with S-Indian+NE-Euro+SE-Asian+Papuan / Baloch+Caucasian+Arctic, I'm an average of my parents (not east of both of them) and most other people are in the same relative spots: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=6

Previously I had done S-Indian+NE-Euro+SE-Asian+Papuan / Baloch+Caucasian+Med+SW-Asian.

Also in the other thread I was surmising that NE-Asian and Arctic components in FTDNA's myOrigins were coming from the Central Asian/Eurasian Heartland component. In this case it would seem they're splitting off from Baloch which serves the same function/spot in Harappa. The reason they're coming off from Baloch in Harappa could be because of its lack of affinity to ANE. MyOrigins is behaving a little differently, their Central Asian component is keeping it all together a bit better.

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2014, 09:34 AM
Dad's kit finished batch processing at GEDmatch. He has 127 autosomal matches to his FTDNA raw data. My mother has 21 to her 23andMe raw data. I have 166 to my 23andMe raw data, 274 to my FTDNA raw data. These are all 7cM or larger autosomal (no X only matches).

My mother shows up with a 48.9 cM segment match to him (162.3 total), estimated to 3.2 generations.

parasar
06-23-2014, 02:24 PM
Good question. I found a book written in the 19th century by someone whose name sounds British. Start from page 37.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AtMuAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA39&dq=khas&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-E2nU7j-PNGsyATK-YDwBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=khas&f=false

Rather negative against Nepalis if you ask me. LOL.
He is suggesting that the Brahmins fled the plains during the Muslim conquest of India. It's something hard to verify, but there may be some truth.
The other question is, where did we come from? West? South? I have no idea to be honest. We are not indigenous to this country. That's pretty obvious. Some say we came from Rajasthan. No way to verify that either. A book written by an uncle of mine says we hail from Kannauj in Uttar Pradesh.

Some probably did, but I would just take the facts stated at face value and not the writer's opinions.

And if you note one of the facts stated is the tradition of the Sesodia themselves:

The head of the renowned Sesodians, somewhat staggered with the pedigree, seemed inclined to admit the relationship, when it was suggested to him to question the ambassador about his own caste as a sort of test for the orthodoxy or otherwise of the notions of caste entertained in the far distant, and, as had always at Chitor or Udaypur been supposed, barbarous Himalaya.


Now of course the tradition of the Sesodiya itself maybe an opinion, but at least it is supported by some important considerations.
First, the domain of Indo-Aryan speaking tribes prior to the forests being cut down was the Nepal terai and the river banks. The forest cover was too thick elsewhere in the gangetic zone.
Second, with the expansion of the Magadhan empires, many of the Indo-Aryan domains moved south, especially to the western regions - Konkan, Kanara, Gurjara, Maharashtra.
Third, with the expansions of the Rastrakutas (Rathore) and the Chalukyas (Solanki) there was a movement to the North, bringing many of these Indo-Aryans now mixed with the Dravidas back up north.

Fig 7.1 depicts these movements in part
http://books.google.com/books?id=mcvhwD5QZKEC&pg=PA169

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2014, 03:38 PM
Dad's got two matches on Family Finder. An American of European descent from the midwest USA and a French Canadian.

parasar
06-23-2014, 04:05 PM
Yeah, we are supposed to be Kanyakubja Brahmins (essentially means from the Kannauj region).
There are a lot of rumors though. Don't know what to believe.

We are supposed to be Kannaujia Brahmans too.
http://books.google.com/books?id=1FcIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40

The Bhuinhars only perform one-half of the prescribed Brahmanical duties. They give alms, but do not receive them; they offer sacrifices to their idols, but do not perform the duties and offices of a priesthood; they read the sacred writings, but do not teach them.
Sir Henry Elliot says:—" We perhaps have some indications of the true origin of Bhuinhar in the names of Gargabhomi and Vatsabhomi, who are mentioned in the Harivansa as Kshatriya Brahmans, descendants of Kasiya princes ...
It is quite true, as before remarked, that this tribe is numerous in Benares and its neighbourhood, though not as descendants of Kasiya princes. The Maharaja of Benares is undoubtedly a Bhuinhar; but his family dates only from the first-half of the preceding century. There is no evidence to show that in olden times princes of Benares were ever Bhuinhars.
By the people of the country of other castes, among whom they dwell, they are called indiscriminately Bhuinhars, G-autams, and Thakurs. The term Brahman is not, I believe, applied to them in common conversation, as it is to other Brahmans; but this is no valid argument against their right to the title. The Bhuinhars call themselves Brahmans; have the gotras, titles, and family names of Brahmans; practise, for the most part, the usages of Brahmans, and, in default of proper evidence to the contrary, must be regarded as Brahmans.
While the Gautams of Benares are called Bhuinhars, they are so simply from the accident of the Bhuinhars there mostly belonging to the Gautam gotra. There are other gotras of Bhuinhars besides the Gautam. Moreover, although the Bhuinhars are chiefly connected with the Sarwaria branch of the Kankubja tribe of Brahmans, yet some of them are allied to the Kanoujiya Brahmans Proper. For instance, the Babus of Chainpur in the Chaprah district are Bhuinhars of this latter sub-tribe. The name of their clan is Eksariya; of their gotra, Parasar; and of their title, Dikshit. They have three Pravaras,— namely, Shakti, Vasisht, and Parasar. They originally followed the Sama Veda of the Kauthumiya Sakha, or branch; but as there were no Brahmans in that part of the country learned in the Sama Veda to perform for them the offices of the priesthood, they embraced the Yajur Veda of the Madhyan-deva Sakha.


Yet, the only pre-colonial write-up that I have been able to locate calls us of the Gurjjar vansh who migrated east to seek abode with relatives in the eastern country [purva, nanadesh] in the Havinsha invasion period.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA45


http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA45&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2qfOyXpY6AnkhB5xis34QrQfMQBQ&ci=298%2C222%2C246%2C43&edge=0 Sri Vaijal, resident of Magadh country.

This codex contains the latter part of the same work. From this may be obtained some important information about the author and king Vaijala, as well as of the Bhumihara dynasty.
... http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA46&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0HkTSBGW3rSS5EC8GTdArGDOcElg&ci=537%2C298%2C111%2C34&edge=0 [Gurjjar vansh sambhava - of Gurjjar vansh origin]

http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA46&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0HkTSBGW3rSS5EC8GTdArGDOcElg&ci=459%2C1247%2C213%2C22&edge=0 [Yavanaraj Havinsha]
...

http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA48&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U20fnz-RukDj7kmR1TGVBOuNNgfBQ&ci=405%2C217%2C313%2C103&edge=0 [Death of Vaijal and end of the Bhumihara kingdom]

...

http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA48&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U20fnz-RukDj7kmR1TGVBOuNNgfBQ&ci=404%2C516%2C335%2C133&edge=0 [Also called Vikrama Vansha, per an ancestor who was the author of a text Vikarama Sagar.

Sein
06-23-2014, 05:10 PM
Pathan would correspond to the HGDP Kurram valley Pashtuns from Pakistan, whereas Pashtun refers to the recent Afghan samples.

I thought only Eurogenes made use of the Afghan Pashtuns, but given the Tadjik population's present in that list, that thought obviously requires correction.

At first, this was my assumption as well, but it doesn't seem to be the case. In the spreadsheet, he has 15 "Pathan" samples listed, and 15 "Pashtun" samples listed. I'm not sure how that works. I think he chose the 15 most South Asian-shifted HGDP Pashtuns for his "Pathan" population, but the other 15 Pashtuns are a mystery.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqn7iMc2P-yQdEItR3hlYzVVSE5yQjBkUzBzT1E5Ymc#gid=0

everest59
06-24-2014, 12:26 AM
I'd believe it. The main difference I'd expect between Nepali and UP Brahmins would be some NE-Asian-like admixture in the former.

However, when I did that spreadsheet sort, the Nepali Brahmins (you and someone else) showed up as essentially just outside the vicinity of Haryana and Western Uttar Pradesh. Likewise, Punjabi and Rajasthani Brahmins (and Kashmiri ones) were shifted east to that same area, Haryana and western Uttar Pradesh. For whatever reason, a lot of the Brahmins from this area seem to gravitate towards that area.

So this is one case where tradition is probably on to something.

Well, the book written by my uncle even has names of my ancestors who came from Kannauj to Nepal (supposedly came to a place called Jumla in Nepal first). I hope he did his research well.

everest59
06-24-2014, 12:29 AM
We are supposed to be Kannaujia Brahmans too.
http://books.google.com/books?id=1FcIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40


Yet, the only pre-colonial write-up that I have been able to locate calls us of the Gurjjar vansh who migrated east to seek abode with relatives in the eastern country [purva, nanadesh] in the Havinsha invasion period.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA45


Yeah, I knew the Bhumihars are Kanyakubja brahmins.
Do you know if Sauryapareen are also Kanyakubja? Or are they a separate group of Brahmins? I have noticed some people classifying Nepali brahmins as Sauryapareen. If Sauryapareen falls under Kanyakubja, that would make sense.

Sapporo
06-24-2014, 02:44 AM
Since everyone was posting their MDLP World 22, here are mine:

MDLP World-22 Oracle results

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West-Asian 35.78
2 Indian 31.98
3 North-East-European 10.75
4 Indo-Iranian 8.34
5 Samoedic 3.19
6 North-European-Mesolithic 2.57
7 Near_East 1.84
8 North-Amerind 1.82
9 Indo-Tibetan 1.45
10 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 1.41
11 East-Siberean 0.51
12 South-America_Amerind 0.34
13 Mesoamerican 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pathan (derived) 6.52
2 Burusho (derived) 6.88
3 Sindhi (derived) 11.02
4 Balochi (derived) 14.25
5 Pashtun (derived) 14.27
6 Jew_India (derived) 17.12
7 Brahui (derived) 18.79
8 Makrani (derived) 19.09
9 Tadjik (derived) 20.14
10 Parsi (derived) 21.03
11 Hindu (derived) 25.37
12 Turkmen (derived) 27.1
13 Roma (derived) 27.97
14 Uzbek (derived) 31.47
15 Iranian (derived) 33.15
16 Indian (derived) 33.64
17 Nogai (derived) 33.82
18 Kumyk (derived) 33.85
19 Hazara (derived) 34.06
20 Azeri (derived) 34.07

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 86.4% Pathan (derived) + 13.6% Indian (derived) @ 3.83
2 82.8% Pathan (derived) + 17.2% Hindu (derived) @ 3.93
3 93.1% Pathan (derived) + 6.9% Indian (ancestral) @ 4.01
4 64.7% Pashtun (derived) + 35.3% Hindu (derived) @ 4.17
5 83.6% Pashtun (derived) + 16.4% Indian (ancestral) @ 4.49
6 56% Tadjik (derived) + 44% Hindu (derived) @ 4.54
7 79.6% Pathan (derived) + 20.4% Jew_India (derived) @ 4.99
8 57.9% Hindu (derived) + 42.1% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.3
9 58.2% Hindu (derived) + 41.8% Lak (derived) @ 5.41
10 59% Hindu (derived) + 41% Avar (derived) @ 5.51
11 55.3% Pathan (derived) + 44.7% Burusho (derived) @ 5.78
12 58.2% Hindu (derived) + 41.8% Lezgin (derived) @ 5.86
13 96.2% Burusho (derived) + 3.8% North-East-European (ancestral) @ 5.9
14 95.6% Burusho (derived) + 4.4% Lithuanian (derived) @ 5.94
15 95.3% Burusho (derived) + 4.7% Belarusian (derived) @ 5.94
16 95.5% Burusho (derived) + 4.5% Lithuanian_V (derived) @ 5.96
17 95.6% Burusho (derived) + 4.4% Latvian (derived) @ 5.98
18 95.4% Burusho (derived) + 4.6% Russian (derived) @ 6.01
19 95.3% Burusho (derived) + 4.7% Polish (derived) @ 6.01
20 95.2% Burusho (derived) + 4.8% Polish_V (derived) @ 6.01

Population Averages:

https://docs.google.com/a/scu.edu/sp...zT1E5Ymc#gid=0

parasar
06-24-2014, 03:22 AM
Yeah, I knew the Bhumihars are Kanyakubja brahmins.
Do you know if Sauryapareen are also Kanyakubja? Or are they a separate group of Brahmins? I have noticed some people classifying Nepali brahmins as Sauryapareen. If Sauryapareen falls under Kanyakubja, that would make sense.

What happens when a certain group's moniker becomes prestigious, is that folk try to claim membership in that group! Sure, there must have been some migrations out of Kannauj, but the historicity of most these claims is doubtful.
Sarwariya just means trans-Sarayu or Sarayu-paar. Kanaujia means from within the doab around Kannauj. Both are geographical terms only, and I doubt there is much daylight between the two groups. The Bengal Brahmans also lay claim to a Kanyakubja association, even though the Kanyakubja themselves are a Gaur group, and their records show them migrating from Kolancha not Kanyakubja.

I would like to read your uncle's book if available. As far as Jumla is concerned, the Jumla Malls too I think were connected to the south, though many historians think it was just Jayasthiti Mall's wife Rajalla-devi who was from the Karnataka dynasty.

http://books.google.com/books?id=YP41AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA233

Le nom de Ballâra ou Vallâra peut ętre authentique; sous la forme dialectale de Ballâla, il est fort ŕ la mode dans les familles royales du Dekkhan (Yâdavas, Çilâhâras, Hoysalas)

http://books.google.com/books?id=5e82AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA14

There is no agreement in the lists of ancestors, except that all seem to show a tradition current at least in the XVIIth century AD. that the family of Jayasthiti was descended from Harisimha [Karnataka line] by the male line

There is also a chance that he was adopted into the Karnataka family (another example would be the Gupta - Licchavi Dauhitra), thus the epithet Rajalladevi-pati.

MitchellSince1893
06-24-2014, 04:14 AM
Here is my father's MDLP-22

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 46.14
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 30.48
3 West-Asian 11.67
4 North-European-Mesolithic 4.6
5 Near_East 3.2
6 Indo-Iranian 1.88
7 Indian 1.16
8 Paleo-Siberian 0.48
9 Samoedic 0.21
10 South-America_Amerind 0.19

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 German_V (derived) 5.7
2 Hungarian (derived) 5.99
3 Serbian (derived) 6.05
4 Bosnian (derived) 6.25
5 Austrian (derived) 6.48
6 Croatian (derived) 7.02
7 CEU_V (derived) 7.61
8 German (derived) 8.16
9 Slovenian (derived) 8.35
10 Montenegrin (derived) 8.57
11 German-South (derived) 8.72
12 Macedonian (derived) 8.87
13 CEU (derived) 9.41
14 German-North (derived) 9.65
15 Welsh (derived) 9.78
16 British (derived) 10.32
17 Norwegian_V (derived) 10.54
18 Bulgarian (derived) 10.94
19 Swedish (derived) 10.94
20 Croatian_V (derived) 11.19

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 86.7% CEU_V (derived) + 13.3% Lezgin (derived) @ 1.5
2 91.8% German_V (derived) + 8.2% Brahui (derived) @ 1.53
3 91.3% German_V (derived) + 8.7% Parsi (derived) @ 1.55
4 85.7% CEU_V (derived) + 14.3% Kumyk (derived) @ 1.6
5 86.3% CEU_V (derived) + 13.7% Chechen (derived) @ 1.63
6 85.7% CEU_V (derived) + 14.3% Adygei (derived) @ 1.65
7 85% German-North (derived) + 15% Armenian (derived) @ 1.65
8 86.7% CEU_V (derived) + 13.3% Lak (derived) @ 1.66
9 86.3% CEU_V (derived) + 13.7% Tabassaran (derived) @ 1.66
10 90.6% German_V (derived) + 9.4% Pashtun (derived) @ 1.67
11 91.7% German_V (derived) + 8.3% Makrani (derived) @ 1.69
12 88.9% German_V (derived) + 11.1% Tadjik (derived) @ 1.69
13 77.9% German-North (derived) + 22.1% Greek_Azov (derived) @ 1.71
14 90.2% German_V (derived) + 9.8% Azeri (derived) @ 1.72
15 90.7% German_V (derived) + 9.3% Kurd (derived) @ 1.74
16 86.7% CEU_V (derived) + 13.3% Georgian (derived) @ 1.74
17 90.9% German_V (derived) + 9.1% Iranian (derived) @ 1.75
18 82.5% German-North (derived) + 17.5% Turk (derived) @ 1.75
19 89.2% German_V (derived) + 10.8% Kumyk (derived) @ 1.77
20 91.8% German_V (derived) + 8.2% Balochi (derived) @ 1.81

Dr_McNinja
12-31-2014, 11:22 PM
Regarding the MDLP K23b calculator and South Asians, the WHG+EEF+ANE total closely approximates the NE-Euro+Med amount in Harappa. Especially for some of the Pashtun, the Haryana Jatts, and many others.

But for some, including both me and Sapporo, there's a fluctuation:

Sapporo:

MDLP 32 S-Indian, 37.65 Baloch, 10.84 Caucasian, 14.32 Euro, 3.35 Arctic, 1.26 SW-Asian = 99.42
HAP 30 S-Indian, 40.77 Baloch, 11.09 Caucasian, 12.40 Euro, 3.46 Arctic, 2.13 SW-Asian = 99.85

Me:

MDLP 38.30 S-Indian, 33.13 Baloch, 7.32 Caucasian, 14.07 Euro, 4.89 Arctic, 1.54 SW-Asian = 99.25
HAP 37.11 S-Indian, 34.88 Baloch, 10.76 Caucasian, 10.74 Euro, 4.40 Arctic, 1.22 SW-Asian = 99.11

So some of the Baloch and Caucasian must be going into European (probably because the ANE is pulled out better in MDLP K23 as a separate component), but the fluctuation in Caucasus is confusing for me since some of mine went into Euro through EEF, not ANE (and my Baloch/S-Indian didn't change as much as others). Putting that in Oracle gives a bunch of 70-75% Haryana Jatt + 25-30% South Indian (mala or ap-madiga) results (before it was 85% Punjabi Jatt Sikh + 15% South Indian (Irula/Pulliyar)).

Even weirder,

Paul Gill:

MDLP 31.40 S-Indian, 37.06 Baloch, 11.64 Caucasian, 14.41 Euro, 2.59 Arctic, 2.37 Archaic African = 99.47
HAP 29.38 S-Indian, 40.81 Baloch, 12.21 Caucasian, 13.31 Euro, 3.08 Arctic, 0.99 SW-Asian = 99.78

I didn't notice the 2.37% Archaic-African before, lol. Where do you suppose that came from? It looks like it had to have come from Baloch/Caucasian.

So then I tried manually altering my results to this:

30 S-Indian, 37.28 Baloch, 7.32 Caucasian, 14.07 Euro, 4.89 Arctic, 1.54 SW-Asian, 4.15 SE-Asian = 99.25

In Harappa Oracle this gives 91% Punjabi Jatt Sikh, 9% Onge or 60% Haryana Jatt, 40% Bihari Muslim. Which could fit either a freak inheritance of ASI/SE-Asian in the SNP range or a mix of Jatts and North Indian Muslims.

It also looks similar to my FTDNA result in the large SE-Asian that comes off. Also, when I crossed my raw data with itself, about half a percent of SE-Asian came off and S-Indian went down to 35.xx%.

I think what happened in FTDNA myOrigins is that the Central Asian component pulled "Caucasian-like" component that, in other calculators, was going into Indian/South Indian. This left a chunk of SE-Asian/ASI left over. The fact it was able to do that in 3 out of 5 family members shows this probably really was Central Asian-type (Baloch+Caucasus) admixture after all, not South Asian-type.

So then I altered it to these (since my dad did get some NE-Asian in myOrigins, approx 3% while he got just under 1% on Harappa):

30 S-Indian, 37.28 Baloch, 7.32 Caucasian, 14.07 Euro, 4.89 Arctic, 1.54 SW-Asian, 2 SE-Asian, 2.15 NE-Asian = 99.25
30 S-Indian, 38.82 Baloch, 7.32 Caucasian, 14.07 Euro, 4.89 Arctic, 2 SE-Asian, 2.15 NE-Asian = 99.25

And the Oracle gave 78% Nepalese-A_xing, 22% Pashtun or 50% Nepalese-A_xing, 50% Punjabi Jatt Sikh for the first one and 47% Nepal, 53% Punjabi Jatt for the second, as well as 93.2% Punjabi Jatt + 6.8% Onge and 22% Bengali Brahmin + 77% Punjabi Jatt Sikh (all for the second version).

These should all be possible outcomes since I'm still going by admixture's own fluctuations.

I do have one Bengali showing up on my Relative Finder (more distant than even the Europeans though), as well as those Mughal surnames. My guess would be this non-Punjabi contribution was some kind of North Indian Muslim from a Mughal surnamed family who had ethnic roots in a mix of foreign (possibly Arab/Iranian) and local Northeast India (Nepal, Bihar, Bengali) Muslims.

I suppose all that Arctic and East Asian could've come from a Turkic background too (since the overlap with the Bengali is not an East Asian segment). Because if I put that 1.54% SW-Asian into Caucasian instead of Baloch (which is probably the more sensible thing to do), the Oracle results are all 10% Chuvash mixed with Punjabi or Kashmiri (even 92% Punjabi mixed with Russian). Hard to say since there have been no Central Asian matches (any matches from actual Turks could just as easily be Caucasus-related, and my dad's had a few).

So, to recap: Father has some NE-Asian, I have more East Asian, mostly in the form of SE-Asian in some calculators. That's likely to be my father's NE-Asian plus some extra SE-Asian which, when removed, frees enough admixture out of Harappa S-Indian to refill Baloch/Caucasian components to their expected levels (expected meaning what I got in FTDNA myOrigins for Central Asia). If this is the source (excess Arctic, which I've always had, plus 2-3% SE-Asian and NE-Asian each), this looks Turkic or Northeast Indian (Himalayan) via North Indian Muslim (and then there are those Arabs). Any trace amounts of Arab admixture (even 2%) would've left a low-ANE, SW-Asian-type signal which would show affinity for S-Indian.

The only way to find out whether any of this makes sense is if the K7/K8 calculators could be tuned to separate East Eurasian from ASE better so that SE-Asian goes into East Eurasian always and never into ASE. Already I'm getting higher Harappa S-Indian despite lower K7 ASE than a bunch of people and SW-ENF explains the affinity (perhaps 1-2% from a distant non-Indian source). But if my non-ASE East Eurasian were to go even higher than it is currently (5.5%), that's probably Himalayan or Turkic origin via North India (most likely local Himalayan, the Turkic thing is quite unlikely but it's a possible fit).

babhan
03-19-2016, 08:09 AM
bro i am a bhumihar of magadh known as babhan in local langauge....my gothra is savarn and we are known as sobarniya babhan ...can you plz tell me since how long magadh babhans have been living in magadh...my district is arwal ....their are many theories regarding our origin ...which one is more authentic plz telll

crossover
03-19-2016, 08:28 AM
Regarding the MDLP K23b calculator and South Asians, the WHG+EEF+ANE total closely approximates the NE-Euro+Med amount in Harappa. Especially for some of the Pashtun, the Haryana Jatts, and many others.

But for some, including both me and Sapporo, there's a fluctuation:

Sapporo:

MDLP 32 S-Indian, 37.65 Baloch, 10.84 Caucasian, 14.32 Euro, 3.35 Arctic, 1.26 SW-Asian = 99.42
HAP 30 S-Indian, 40.77 Baloch, 11.09 Caucasian, 12.40 Euro, 3.46 Arctic, 2.13 SW-Asian = 99.85

Me:

MDLP 38.30 S-Indian, 33.13 Baloch, 7.32 Caucasian, 14.07 Euro, 4.89 Arctic, 1.54 SW-Asian = 99.25
HAP 37.11 S-Indian, 34.88 Baloch, 10.76 Caucasian, 10.74 Euro, 4.40 Arctic, 1.22 SW-Asian = 99.11

So some of the Baloch and Caucasian must be going into European (probably because the ANE is pulled out better in MDLP K23 as a separate component), but the fluctuation in Caucasus is confusing for me since some of mine went into Euro through EEF, not ANE (and my Baloch/S-Indian didn't change as much as others). Putting that in Oracle gives a bunch of 70-75% Haryana Jatt + 25-30% South Indian (mala or ap-madiga) results (before it was 85% Punjabi Jatt Sikh + 15% South Indian (Irula/Pulliyar)).

Even weirder,

Paul Gill:

MDLP 31.40 S-Indian, 37.06 Baloch, 11.64 Caucasian, 14.41 Euro, 2.59 Arctic, 2.37 Archaic African = 99.47
HAP 29.38 S-Indian, 40.81 Baloch, 12.21 Caucasian, 13.31 Euro, 3.08 Arctic, 0.99 SW-Asian = 99.78

I didn't notice the 2.37% Archaic-African before, lol. Where do you suppose that came from? It looks like it had to have come from Baloch/Caucasian.

So then I tried manually altering my results to this:

30 S-Indian, 37.28 Baloch, 7.32 Caucasian, 14.07 Euro, 4.89 Arctic, 1.54 SW-Asian, 4.15 SE-Asian = 99.25

In Harappa Oracle this gives 91% Punjabi Jatt Sikh, 9% Onge or 60% Haryana Jatt, 40% Bihari Muslim. Which could fit either a freak inheritance of ASI/SE-Asian in the SNP range or a mix of Jatts and North Indian Muslims.

It also looks similar to my FTDNA result in the large SE-Asian that comes off. Also, when I crossed my raw data with itself, about half a percent of SE-Asian came off and S-Indian went down to 35.xx%.

I think what happened in FTDNA myOrigins is that the Central Asian component pulled "Caucasian-like" component that, in other calculators, was going into Indian/South Indian. This left a chunk of SE-Asian/ASI left over. The fact it was able to do that in 3 out of 5 family members shows this probably really was Central Asian-type (Baloch+Caucasus) admixture after all, not South Asian-type.

So then I altered it to these (since my dad did get some NE-Asian in myOrigins, approx 3% while he got just under 1% on Harappa):

30 S-Indian, 37.28 Baloch, 7.32 Caucasian, 14.07 Euro, 4.89 Arctic, 1.54 SW-Asian, 2 SE-Asian, 2.15 NE-Asian = 99.25
30 S-Indian, 38.82 Baloch, 7.32 Caucasian, 14.07 Euro, 4.89 Arctic, 2 SE-Asian, 2.15 NE-Asian = 99.25

And the Oracle gave 78% Nepalese-A_xing, 22% Pashtun or 50% Nepalese-A_xing, 50% Punjabi Jatt Sikh for the first one and 47% Nepal, 53% Punjabi Jatt for the second, as well as 93.2% Punjabi Jatt + 6.8% Onge and 22% Bengali Brahmin + 77% Punjabi Jatt Sikh (all for the second version).

These should all be possible outcomes since I'm still going by admixture's own fluctuations.

I do have one Bengali showing up on my Relative Finder (more distant than even the Europeans though), as well as those Mughal surnames. My guess would be this non-Punjabi contribution was some kind of North Indian Muslim from a Mughal surnamed family who had ethnic roots in a mix of foreign (possibly Arab/Iranian) and local Northeast India (Nepal, Bihar, Bengali) Muslims.

I suppose all that Arctic and East Asian could've come from a Turkic background too (since the overlap with the Bengali is not an East Asian segment). Because if I put that 1.54% SW-Asian into Caucasian instead of Baloch (which is probably the more sensible thing to do), the Oracle results are all 10% Chuvash mixed with Punjabi or Kashmiri (even 92% Punjabi mixed with Russian). Hard to say since there have been no Central Asian matches (any matches from actual Turks could just as easily be Caucasus-related, and my dad's had a few).

So, to recap: Father has some NE-Asian, I have more East Asian, mostly in the form of SE-Asian in some calculators. That's likely to be my father's NE-Asian plus some extra SE-Asian which, when removed, frees enough admixture out of Harappa S-Indian to refill Baloch/Caucasian components to their expected levels (expected meaning what I got in FTDNA myOrigins for Central Asia). If this is the source (excess Arctic, which I've always had, plus 2-3% SE-Asian and NE-Asian each), this looks Turkic or Northeast Indian (Himalayan) via North Indian Muslim (and then there are those Arabs). Any trace amounts of Arab admixture (even 2%) would've left a low-ANE, SW-Asian-type signal which would show affinity for S-Indian.

The only way to find out whether any of this makes sense is if the K7/K8 calculators could be tuned to separate East Eurasian from ASE better so that SE-Asian goes into East Eurasian always and never into ASE. Already I'm getting higher Harappa S-Indian despite lower K7 ASE than a bunch of people and SW-ENF explains the affinity (perhaps 1-2% from a distant non-Indian source). But if my non-ASE East Eurasian were to go even higher than it is currently (5.5%), that's probably Himalayan or Turkic origin via North India (most likely local Himalayan, the Turkic thing is quite unlikely but it's a possible fit).

ftdna also mistakes amerindian for central asian occasionally as well

babhan
03-21-2016, 01:24 PM
bhai what about magadh babhans are they also a branch of gaud brahmins

parasar
03-21-2016, 03:28 PM
Per the approximately 1000 year old classifications of brahmans between Gaud and Dravid brahmans, Magadh babhans would fall under Gaud brahmans.

But there has been an input into northern India of Gurjar/Maratha brahmans etc. who traditionally fell under under the Dravid classification.

Gurjara was the Tapti, Narmada, Mahi river regions and Maratha was from south of that to northern Karnataka and parts of Telang (the Chalukya regions).

For example the ancestor of some Babhans of Saran is said to have immigrated from the south.

babhan
03-22-2016, 05:28 AM
thanks for your reply bhai but whatever limited knowledge i possess the babhans is the term used specifically for the magadh region, north bihar bhumihars were termed as paschima brahmins..few mohyal clans of bali gothra are to be founded in chapra and siwan district and chitpovania babahns in deoghar and girdhi..their is so much ambiguity regarding our origin .some call us brahmin kshatriya etc so according to you the babhans of magadh since magadh has been strong bastion for the babhans in the past .Magdh babhans are originally gaud brahmins or primitive brahmins of magadh itself..

Ajay Singh
08-16-2018, 03:01 PM
Mr Parasar, Solanki surname is also used by Jats and there is one Rathi surname in Jats which is similar to Rathores. And Rathores are related to Gaharwars not Rashtrakutas.