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JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-19-2017, 09:34 AM
A friend shared this with me - possibly 8,000 years ago.
If accurate it seems to indicate a fairly sophisticated use of dogs in hunting.

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencemag.org%2Fnews%2F2 017%2F11%2Fthese-may-be-world-s-first-images-dogs-and-they-re-wearing-leashes&h=ATOI2CulFxyfZFiTefI13EO0LQWrFK8W5JZh1syUy73pV-9azXH_X143HyIA3o43uv93GkErke17hbHjVDvydITeYtmsdSoY RmCMtxXpjg3Pa_wdFcIKDbho3qbhLOx8OpS3LIfUpUgcucY8te 801-G1-UcPzHQ-1qZMFYiUTCHNYM2V7c-Z_yk9IcRhmxMtYWun1brFHM90KvuCwud4zPocTQdBJkBavFqYv 029NEr_ALTfk3TeSNlCXl4wRP4F1xYuH21_7F3ZQ5EjKXGXywU byDGvZ5FuvG6f0JGH4gVVmU3k6g

rms2
11-19-2017, 05:24 PM
Looks like hunting with his hounds really made that bowman happy! :biggrin1:

MonkeyDLuffy
11-23-2017, 02:09 PM
Always been fascinated with how the original dogs looked like before we bred them with all health issues and deformities, which we consider "Cute".

jesus
11-23-2017, 06:49 PM
Always been fascinated with how the original dogs looked like before we bred them with all health issues and deformities, which we consider "Cute".

Some breeds like the German shepherd were selected for their large size only in North America. This led to an increase in their weight(with time), and caused some medical problems. Coyotes and Wolves can look pretty cute and they're not really domesticated, but what happened to Pugs is extreme in my opinion(they're good boys and girls though).

These dogs in the ancient images resemble the Shiba and Akita Inu breeds. They also look kinda similar to the Australian Dingo and to a less degree the Finnish Spitz.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-23-2017, 06:59 PM
Some breeds like the German shepherd were selected for their large size only in North America. This led to an increase in their weight(with time), and caused some medical problems. Coyotes and Wolves can look pretty cute and they're not really domesticated, but what happened to Pugs is extreme in my opinion(they're good boys and girls though).

These dogs in the ancient images resemble the Shiba and Akita Inu breeds. They also look kinda similar to the Australian Dingo and to a less degree the Finnish Spitz.

Indian pariah dog is one of the closest breed to original dogs, it lives for long time and doesnt have health issues. Flat faced dogs are the extreme end we've hit, especially bulldog. It's painful for them to even live with so many health issues. Now they've turned into show pieces rather than the working breeds they were.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-23-2017, 08:16 PM
I think fossils suggest these early dogs were about the size of a German Shepherd.
This one, which I think was found in the Altai Region, had a bone inserted in it's mouth.

19946

surbakhunWeesste
11-23-2017, 08:19 PM
I have a Shiba Inu and I think it is the king of all dogs, the Queen of dogs goes to the tazi(Afghan hound).

http://cdn1-www.dogtime.com/assets/uploads/gallery/shiba-inu-dog-breed-picutres/8-side.jpg

http://cdn1-www.dogtime.com/assets/uploads/2009/11/afghan-hound-dog-names.jpg

Agamemnon
11-24-2017, 01:29 AM
The dogs depicted here are Canaan dogs, this is Israel's national dog breed. They are easily recognisable thanks to their curled tails and pointy ears. These dogs roam throughout the arid deserts and steppes of the region, they appear in hunting scenes starting from the Neolithic period. Nomadic pastoralists have been using them to guard, herd, track or hunt since the early Chalcolithic period, they were traditionally captured and tamed (not bred), they are essential to the region's nomadic lifestyle, this is why they are also called "Bedouin dogs". In settled urban and rural muslim areas (especially in Jordan, Egypt, Judea-Samaria and some parts of the Galilee) they are routinely captured, tortured and killed for sport (this has lead to the depletion entire domestic populations in some cases), this is primarily due to Islam's characterisation of dogs as unclean and unholy.

Here's an interesting website (http://saudi-archaeology.com/subjects/canaan-dog/) where you can see similar ancient rock carvings in Saudi Arabia depicting Canaan dogs.

bmoney
11-24-2017, 02:22 AM
Some breeds like the German shepherd were selected for their large size only in North America. This led to an increase in their weight(with time), and caused some medical problems. Coyotes and Wolves can look pretty cute and they're not really domesticated, but what happened to Pugs is extreme in my opinion(they're good boys and girls though).

These dogs in the ancient images resemble the Shiba and Akita Inu breeds. They also look kinda similar to the Australian Dingo and to a less degree the Finnish Spitz.

Dingos are meant to be an ancient introduction into Australia from India - probably from the ghost ASI population that has contributed to a few digits of admixture to some Australian Aboriginal pops

rms2
11-24-2017, 03:02 AM
Here's the massive not-so-ancient dog who terrorizes all who encounter her.

19949 19950

surbakhunWeesste
11-24-2017, 03:41 AM
Here's the massive not-so-ancient dog who terrorizes all who encounter her.

19949 19950

hahahah, little the stature of a dog, scarier they attempt to be.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-24-2017, 06:21 AM
The dogs depicted here are Canaan dogs, this is Israel's national dog breed. They are easily recognisable thanks to their curled tails and pointy ears. These dogs roam throughout the arid deserts and steppes of the region, they appear in hunting scenes starting from the Neolithic period. Nomadic pastoralists have been using them to guard, herd, track or hunt since the early Chalcolithic period, they were traditionally captured and tamed (not bred), they are essential to the region's nomadic lifestyle, this is why they are also called "Bedouin dogs". In settled urban and rural muslim areas (especially in Jordan, Egypt, Judea-Samaria and some parts of the Galilee) they are routinely captured, tortured and killed for sport (this has lead to the depletion entire domestic populations in some cases), this is primarily due to Islam's characterisation of dogs as unclean and unholy.

Here's an interesting website (http://saudi-archaeology.com/subjects/canaan-dog/) where you can see similar ancient rock carvings in Saudi Arabia depicting Canaan dogs.

Curled tails are supposedly one of the physical changes that are observed as a result of domestication. It was observed in the Russian fox experiment where they selected for "tameness".
"In the domesticated foxes, morphological aberrations such as floppy ears and curly tails occurred in addition to changes in standard coat colour. These morphological traits are also characteristic of many domesticates, mainly dogs (Fig. 4 F-J). At the more advanced steps of selection, changes in the parameters of the skeletal system began to arise. They included shortened legs, tail, snout, upper jaw and widened skull (Fig. 4)."
I wonder whether it's possible that the Canaan dog was domesticated early, partly self-selecting for tameness, subsequently became feral and domesticated again during a later period? Just speculating.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj32O7oxdbXAhUM2aQKHe0UBOkQFghDMAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Fart icles%2FPMC2763232%2F&usg=AOvVaw3VrNGC_QlQOB29H8G23FjT

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-24-2017, 06:36 AM
Here's the massive not-so-ancient dog who terrorizes all who encounter her.

19949 19950

Now this is actually an example of human genetic selection resulting in small size but with a purpose - vermin control, a need that has existed from very early times. :)
Small terriers may be but at heart they are still hunting dogs particularly those breeds who have not moved too far from their origins.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-24-2017, 06:53 AM
hahahah, little the stature of a dog, scarier they attempt to be.

Don't let the small size fool you - terriers were bred small for a purpose, they are still hunting dogs. :)
All true terriers evolved from only a few regional types only a couple of hundred years ago. They will take on quarry much bigger than themselves. I know that terriers are still used to hunt wild boar in various parts of the World.

Agamemnon
11-24-2017, 01:35 PM
Here's the paper by the way:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278416517301174#f0015

I've been keeping a close eye on recent developments surrounding rock art and epigraphy in the Arabian peninsula for some time now, let's just say we are going to see many similar papers of the sort in the coming years.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-24-2017, 01:57 PM
They're trying to replicate original dogs by crossbreeding the most "natural" looking dogs. Utonagan is a good example, it is developed by crossbreeding Husky, malamute and german shephard, and the result is glorious!

https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/images/breeds/222/large/9540ffb6d15aa64cc447588596c3d786.jpg

surbakhunWeesste
11-24-2017, 04:32 PM
They're trying to replicate original dogs by crossbreeding the most "natural" looking dogs. Utonagan is a good example, it is developed by crossbreeding Husky, malamute and german shephard, and the result is glorious!

https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/images/breeds/222/large/9540ffb6d15aa64cc447588596c3d786.jpg

Where are Akita and Shiba? >:(
Shibas and Akita act like wolves as in wild and are the most independent, it is quite innate for them to do what dogs were bred from. I grew up with lots of dogs, all with taller stature, off of all dog breeds, Shiba has been the most independent ones. Some people just come up to me and ask," is that a mini wolf?," is that a mini german shephard?", "is that a mini husky?" etc etc. Shiba aren't "friendly" just to anyone wagging their tails lulz. Never seen that much personality in any breed. They stay in good health as well, in comparison to other dogs. Tazi are independent as well, they act like border coolies.
One has to gaze into a Shiba's eyes to understand what I mean.
Adopt dogs, they will change your life for better than any human lulz.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-24-2017, 05:24 PM
Where are Akita and Shiba? >:(
Shibas and Akita act like wolves as in wild and are the most independent, it is quite innate for them to do what dogs were bred from. I grew up with lots of dogs, all with taller stature, off of all dog breeds, Shiba has been the most independent ones. Some people just come up to me and ask," is that a mini wolf?," is that a mini german shephard?", "is that a mini husky?" etc etc. Shiba aren't "friendly" just to anyone wagging their tails lulz. Never seen that much personality in any breed. They stay in good health as well, in comparison to other dogs. Tazi are independent as well, they act like border coolies.
One has to gaze into a Shiba's eyes to understand what I mean.
Adopt dogs, they will change your life for better than any human lulz.

I'm Otaku lol, shiba is the breed I've been wanting from forever! And yes, Shiba and Akita are ancient breeds along with Chow chow, Indian Pariah dog, Papua New Guinea singing dog and dingos in Asia/oceania.

Biggest trait of more wolf like dogs is that they mate only once an year, oppose to twice which is seen in modern breeds. This is quite sad that Akita and shibas are being selectively bred in West now, like what they did with german shephard for competitions.

A Norfolk L-M20
11-24-2017, 11:22 PM
This is the best dog that I ever had as a partner. This photo was taken at his peak. Awesome dog. Unfortunately only this week, now aged 11 and with a tumour, I had to have him put to sleep

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2229/2274159460_7e040d37f1_o.jpg

Sorry for interjecting your thread of the domestication of the dog with a personal dog photo, but I'm still reeling from losing him. As a husky, he did exhibit some behavioural characteristics that are particular breed. A very high prey drive. Hell when he slipped a line. A digger. A howler. But above all, an awesome dog that I hiked with, canicross ran with, and bikejored with many, many miles.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-25-2017, 07:37 AM
This is the best dog that I ever had as a partner. This photo was taken at his peak. Awesome dog. Unfortunately only this week, now aged 11 and with a tumour, I had to have him put to sleep

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2229/2274159460_7e040d37f1_o.jpg

Sorry for interjecting your thread of the domestication of the dog with a personal dog photo, but I'm still reeling from losing him. As a husky, he did exhibit some behavioural characteristics that are particular breed. A very high prey drive. Hell when he slipped a line. A digger. A howler. But above all, an awesome dog that I hiked with, canicross ran with, and bikejored with many, many miles.

He was a fine looking dog and I'm sure he had a wonderful life with you. I know what it's like, it is a very hard blow to take. We never forget them.

Terminus88
11-25-2017, 10:33 PM
No surprise, humans have always been quick to domesticate and train animals.

leonardo
11-25-2017, 11:55 PM
Here's the massive not-so-ancient dog who terrorizes all who encounter her.

19949 19950

Mine might give yours a run for her money
19977

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-27-2017, 06:18 AM
No surprise, humans have always been quick to domesticate and train animals.

Did humans train the dog or the dog train the humans? :)
The development and success of both are, I think, closely linked. No other animal has as close a relationship with humans as the dog, excepting perhaps the horse and dogs were domesticated long before horses.
Scientific studies have shown that success in hunting is increased very significantly when using dogs, which I think contributed in a big way to the success and expansion of early human populations. The "benefits" dogs derive from their associations with people have lead to them being very successful too.
As we are sharing dog photos I suppose I should include mine. :)

19999

rayvs
12-07-2017, 03:32 PM
Great thread. I have five dogs..
Big and Small cosmo.

https://s25.postimg.org/4s7fgia3j/thumbnail_1225.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

rayvs
12-07-2017, 03:48 PM
Don't let the small size fool you - terriers were bred small for a purpose, they are still hunting dogs. :)
All true terriers evolved from only a few regional types only a couple of hundred years ago. They will take on quarry much bigger than themselves. I know that terriers are still used to hunt wild boar in various parts of the World.

I have two dogs that are terriers, Ive already had to pick up dead skunks twice from my backyard. The others are two rescued chihuahuas and a Texas heeler.

PaintedPonies
01-24-2018, 02:17 AM
That's cool.

Snowflake
06-04-2018, 11:23 PM
In response to the whole inbreeding thing, I am finally seeing this issue being brought up in mainstream media; there's even a new study (O'Neil et al., 2018) that was published a few days ago in regards to the health ailments that plague the french bulldog (obstructive airway, vision problems, and a multitude of others).
I am sure organizations like the American Kennel Club would contest or completely ignore these facts.

Its nice to finally see people concerned about this issue.