PDA

View Full Version : Tuscany



JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-20-2017, 07:49 AM
A couple of things recently have made me think about why so many people seem to get Tuscan percentages on LivingDNA.
My own possibly mad theory is that these small unusual percentages like Basque, Sardinian, NW Pakistan region and others don't reflect personal ancestry but rather certain similarities between the DNA of British (and some other) testers and other populations which are distinctive and different because of relative genetic isolation (containing maybe an "older" DNA profile) or possibly other factors.
So is the Tuscan population distinctive (making it stand out as a sort of marker) and if so why? I started thinking about this last night when in a TV programme about Neanderthals it was said that Tuscans have the highest European percentage of Neanderthal DNA at around 4% which apparently is true (why?) I'm not suggesting this accounts for the Living DNA results but perhaps it contributes partly to a genetic
"difference"?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4z7eMz8zXAhWJPBoKHWZwBZQQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abroadintheyard.com%2Fpeople-from-tuscany-most-similar-neanderthals%2F&usg=AOvVaw0da0miBmUy7vfWH8wOiB-R

There is an interesting article below, if a bit "scientific" for me. :)
Conclusion :- " Overall, these mtDNA data and others from different organisms28 support the scenario of a post-Neolithic genetic input from the Near East to the present-day population of Tuscany, a scenario that is in agreement with an Anatolian origin of Etruscans.2 Traces of this relatively recent arrival from the Near East are still detectable in Tuscany, despite extensive dilution by admixture with both native and surrounding Italic populations and later immigration."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj8tvnKzMzXAhXB7hoKHVDQDUQQFgg5MAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencedirect.com%2Fscience%2 Farticle%2Fpii%2FS0002929707611069&usg=AOvVaw0gyywq9Drbw9RETyWnS1FW

Taurus
11-20-2017, 09:24 AM
A couple of things recently have made me think about why so many people seem to get Tuscan percentages on LivingDNA.
My own possibly mad theory is that these small unusual percentages like Basque, Sardinian, NW Pakistan region and others don't reflect personal ancestry but rather certain similarities between the DNA of British (and some other) testers and other populations which are distinctive and different because of relative genetic isolation (containing maybe an "older" DNA profile) or possibly other factors.
So is the Tuscan population distinctive (making it stand out as a sort of marker) and if so why? I started thinking about this last night when in a TV programme about Neanderthals it was said that Tuscans have the highest European percentage of Neanderthal DNA at around 4% which apparently is true (why?) I'm not suggesting this accounts for the Living DNA results but perhaps it contributes partly to a genetic
"difference"?
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4z7eMz8zXAhWJPBoKHWZwBZQQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abroadintheyard.com%2Fpeople-from-tuscany-most-similar-neanderthals%2F&usg=AOvVaw0da0miBmUy7vfWH8wOiB-R

Yes I agree with you, those percentages don't reflect personal ancestry but rather certain similarities. On the other hand, Tuscan people can get British DNA or Northwestern-related ancestry percentages on LivingDNA, and also in their case this doesn't reflect personal ancestry or recent British ancestors.

Tuscan component on LivingDNA is just a Southern European-like ancestry. Nothing more than this.

That Tuscans have the highest European percentage of Neanderthal DNA at around 4% is based on an old finding, and wasn't even a peer-reviewed paper. More recently papers came out and produced different results.

Tuscans are a mix of EEF, Steppe and Caucasian component, not so different from North Italians (Italian_Bergamo), just a little further south genetically than them.

https://periklisdeligiannis.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/aaaaa.jpg

Only through major late Paleolithic components

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19871&d=1511128324

According to Maciamo, Tuscan component in Living DNA could be a good proxy for Roman ancestry in British people. I do not know how true it is.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34478-Is-the-Central-Italian-component-in-Living-DNA-a-good-proxy-for-Roman-ancestry


There is an interesting article below, if a bit "scientific" for me. :)
Conclusion :- " Overall, these mtDNA data and others from different organisms28 support the scenario of a post-Neolithic genetic input from the Near East to the present-day population of Tuscany, a scenario that is in agreement with an Anatolian origin of Etruscans.2 Traces of this relatively recent arrival from the Near East are still detectable in Tuscany, despite extensive dilution by admixture with both native and surrounding Italic populations and later immigration."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj8tvnKzMzXAhXB7hoKHVDQDUQQFgg5MAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencedirect.com%2Fscience%2 Farticle%2Fpii%2FS0002929707611069&usg=AOvVaw0gyywq9Drbw9RETyWnS1FW


Very old study and to begin with and it's not a study on autosomal DNA. Assuming those mitochondrial traces have been indeed found, those traces are not found in all the Tuscans ("Other Tuscan populations do not show the same striking feature") and that study analyzed only some villages and towns. This paper has nothing to do with the Tuscan autosomal component on LivingDNA.

And to be honest the origin of the Etruscans has not been found yet. We can not even rule out that "Etruscans are more likely to be a remnant non-IE population of the central Mediterranean, occupying a role similar to that of the Basques of the Iberian peninsula and southern France but who clearly absorbed various art-styles and an alphabet from their eastern (Greek) neighbors" (Source: Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, J. P. Mallory,Douglas Q. Adams, p. 316, Taylor & Francis, London-Chicago 1997).

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-20-2017, 09:56 AM
Yes I agree with you, those percentages don't reflect personal ancestry but rather certain similarities. On the other hand, Tuscan people can get British DNA or Northwestern-related ancestry percentages on LivingDNA, and also in their case this doesn't reflect personal ancestry or recent British ancestors.

Tuscan component on LivingDNA is just a Southern European-like ancestry. Nothing more than this.

That Tuscans have the highest European percentage of Neanderthal DNA at around 4% is based on an old finding, and wasn't even a peer-reviewed paper. More recently papers came out and produced different results.

Tuscans are a mix of EEF, Steppe and Caucasian component, not so different from North Italians (Italian_Bergamo), just a little further south genetically than them.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19871&d=1511128324

https://periklisdeligiannis.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/aaaaa.jpg

According to Maciamo, Tuscan component in Living DNA could be a good proxy for Roman ancestry in British people. I do not know how true it is.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34478-Is-the-Central-Italian-component-in-Living-DNA-a-good-proxy-for-Roman-ancestry




Very old study and to begin with and it's not a study on autosomal DNA. Assuming those mitochondrial traces have been indeed found, those traces are not found in all the Tuscans ("Other Tuscan populations do not show the same striking feature") and that study analyzed only some villages and towns. This paper has nothing to do with the Tuscan autosomal component on LivingDNA.

And to be honest the origin of the Etruscans has not been found yet. We can not even rule out that "Etruscans are more likely to be a remnant non-IE population of the central Mediterranean, occupying a role similar to that of the Basques of the Iberian peninsula and southern France but who clearly absorbed various art-styles and an alphabet from their eastern (Greek) neighbors" (Source: Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, J. P. Mallory,Douglas Q. Adams, p. 316, Taylor & Francis, London-Chicago 1997).

I think they focused on the MtDNA to try and avoid "confusion" other genetic events but I take your point.
The number of times Tuscan (and not other regions) comes up suggests maybe there is something there, maybe not too significant, that has certain similarities to DNA combinations in parts of Britain. I think there is a Lombard element there? I'm not too sure about the Romano British which is sometimes assumed, with the apparent diversity of the Roman population in Britain and why Tuscany rather than other areas?
I wonder if there are just more test results from Tuscany than other regions in Italy and that area which might explain it? Thanks for the information.
I tend to get Sardinian , Basque and NW Pakistan region myself.

Larth
11-20-2017, 10:47 AM
The number of times Tuscan (and not other regions) comes up suggests maybe there is something there, maybe not too significant, that has certain similarities to DNA combinations in parts of Britain

Lara M. Cassidy found this. The modern populations who "received the most haplotypes" from Rathlin1. In Tuscans is likely a Villanovans/Urnfield link with Rathlin1.

Scottish 36.512
Ireland 36.313
Welsh 35.745
Germany Austria 33.658
French 32.299
English 32.213
Norwegian 31.425
Orcadian 30.072
Tuscan 29.202
Spanish 28.613
Hungarian 28.995
Belorussian 28.418
North Italian 27.829
Lezgin 27.029
Romanian 26.692
Polish 26.957
Finnish 26.431
Bulgarian 26.21
South Italian 26.127
Russian 25.537
Lithuanian 25.067
East Sicilian 24.689
West Sicilian 24.509
Greek 24.341

Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.abstract

A Norfolk L-M20
11-20-2017, 01:02 PM
Living DNA gave me 8.6% Tuscany. They gave my son no Tuscany. It would be a wonderful thing for it to represent Roman ancestry but I don't believe that it does. Just a quirk of their test. I should have 3% Swiss however, so maybe there is a connection there. I'd say that with my East Anglian ancestry, and generally very low scores for British/Irish on tests, that I'd be less likely to have a lot of Romano-British ancestry. I do however tend to score a little higher for Neolithic Farmer, than do other Brits, even a bit above average for English (as the above bar graph shows, the English have a bit more Neolithic / Southern than other nearby NW Europeans). However I put this down to a long history of exchange and immigration from south of the English Channel, certainly including Medieval French.

Nive1526
11-20-2017, 01:32 PM
I get 23% Tuscany on LivingDNA standard mode, about 40% Germanic, 36% British Isles and 1.2% Arabia.
So roughly three parts Northwestern European and one part Mediterranean.
The same 3:1 ratio at geneplaza and genecove with 73% Northwest European, 23% Southwestern European, 2% Ambiguous European and 3% World Ambiguous.
And many Gedmatch oracles give me the same 3:1 in Oracle 2, so I'm pretty confident that the LivingDNA Tuscan component is, at least in my case, based on real mediterranean ancestry.
But whether it is actual Tuscan or not, I'm not very sure. Tuscan ancestry should give me at least a bit Eastern Mediterranean on Geneplaza.
Another hint could be that Northern Europeans with a Tuscan score on LivingDNA usually don't get any other Italian regions.

@A Norfolk L-M20
A possible connection between Switzerland and Tuscany could trace back to Rhaetian times. Rhaetians and Etruscans spoke a related language and maybe they shared some DNA aswell, that survived in both Tuscany and some places north of the Alps.

Cascio
11-20-2017, 02:02 PM
My ancestors come from NW Tuscany which is genetically shifted more to the north than most other parts of Tuscany (Lucca was the main Langobard centre in Tuscany and this political dominance continued under the Franks and Saxon Ottonians) but I get 33.4pc of Eastern Mediterranean and 18pc of Northwest European on GenePlaza.

Nive1526
11-20-2017, 02:09 PM
How much Southwestern European do you get?

Cascio
11-20-2017, 02:15 PM
How much Southwestern European do you get?

45.2pc.

JerryS.
11-20-2017, 03:08 PM
im debating on the living DNA test still for the very reason the OP has outlined.... people like me with a mostly NW European background mixed with a little Mediterranean might not get a accurate representation because it seems that Living DNA is slanted or geared more towards the NW European backgrounds.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-20-2017, 06:04 PM
im debating on the living DNA test still for the very reason the OP has outlined.... people like me with a mostly NW European background mixed with a little Mediterranean might not get a accurate representation because it seems that Living DNA is slanted or geared more towards the NW European backgrounds.

It did start I think as a "British Isles Focus" so maybe that is understandable but they are now testing in other countries, so hopefully they will be much broader in time.

JerryS.
11-20-2017, 06:39 PM
you also have to wonder about the population groups sampled by each calculating model....

the ones that seemed geared towards NW Europe tend to pick up only slightly on southern Italian markers as a minor region, but other calculating models reflect a higher number for the same region. for example:

one of my EUtest groups:

Single Population Sharing: doesn't show Italian until.....

#19 North_Italian 19.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing: doesn't show Italian until.....

#5 74.7% NO + 25.3% Tuscan @ 2.66

Dodecad V3 has no Italian listing for the single population list but here are the 20 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 84.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.1% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 1.29
2 84.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
3 86.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 13.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
4 86.9% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13.1% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.5
5 88.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.52
6 88.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.3% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.55
7 80.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 19.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.56
8 87.7% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.3% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.58
9 87.8% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.2% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.59
10 88.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.5% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.6
11 88.1% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.64
12 87.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.64
13 88% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 12% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.71
14 87.8% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.74
15 85.3% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 14.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.77
16 92.6% CEU (HapMap) + 7.4% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.78
17 87% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.78
18 86.2% Orcadian (HGDP) + 13.8% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
19 92.1% CEU (HapMap) + 7.9% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.81
20 81.5% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 18.5% TSI (HapMap) @ 1.83

MDLP 23b single population:

#8 Italian_North ( ) 8.41

mixed mode:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.5% Frisian ( ) + 17.5% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
2 82.2% Frisian ( ) + 17.8% Albanian_Tirana ( ) @ 1.89
3 79.8% Frisian ( ) + 20.2% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.93
4 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Thessaly ( ) @ 1.94
5 86% Frisian ( ) + 14% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.99
6 85.6% Frisian ( ) + 14.4% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.99
7 83.9% Frisian ( ) + 16.1% Central_Greek ( ) @ 2
8 85% Frisian ( ) + 15% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
9 79.3% Frisian ( ) + 20.7% Bulgarian ( ) @ 2.05
10 88.5% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2.05
11 83.5% Frisian ( ) + 16.5% Ashkenazi ( ) @ 2.07
12 79.4% Frisian ( ) + 20.6% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 2.08
13 88.9% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.1% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.08
14 85.5% Frisian ( ) + 14.5% Greek ( ) @ 2.09
15 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.09
16 84.6% Frisian ( ) + 15.4% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 2.1
17 84.4% Frisian ( ) + 15.6% Gagauz ( ) @ 2.11
18 82.2% Frisian ( ) + 17.8% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
19 84.4% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 15.6% Circassian ( ) @ 2.15
20 93% Belgian ( ) + 7% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.15

Harappa world singles:

10 spaniard (behar) 19.06
11 romanian-a (behar) 19.08
12 spaniard (1000genomes) 20.17
13 italian (hgdp) 21.13
14 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 21.4
19 tuscan (hapmap) 27.08
20 tuscan (hgdp) 27.4

mixed mode:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73.9% british (1000genomes) + 26.1% bulgarian (yunusbayev) @ 1.06
2 71.7% british (1000genomes) + 28.3% romanian-a (behar) @ 1.1
3 91.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 8.5% armenian (behar) @ 1.29
4 77% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 23% romanian-a (behar) @ 1.3
5 92.7% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 7.3% georgian (behar) @ 1.31
6 79% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 21% bulgarian (yunusbayev) @ 1.33
7 92.5% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 7.5% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.42
8 80% utahn-white (hapmap) + 20% tuscan (hapmap) @ 1.52
9 92.1% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 7.9% druze (hgdp) @ 1.52
10 80.4% utahn-white (hapmap) + 19.6% tuscan (1000genomes) @ 1.52
11 89.9% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 10.1% turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) @ 1.57
12 90.3% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 9.7% turk (behar) @ 1.59
13 90.6% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 9.4% cypriot (behar) @ 1.6
14 90.2% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 9.8% turk-kayseri (hodoglugil) @ 1.62
15 91.8% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 8.2% azerbaijan-jew (behar) @ 1.7
16 68.2% orcadian (hgdp) + 31.8% bulgarian (yunusbayev) @ 1.74
17 91% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 9% balkar (yunusbayev) @ 1.77
18 91.2% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 8.8% adygei (hgdp) @ 1.78
19 88.6% utahn-white (1000genomes) + 11.4% turk-aydin (hodoglugil) @ 1.78
20 90.7% british (1000genomes) + 9.3% georgian (behar) @ 1.78

then there is Gedrosia K13: Single....

9 Bulgarian 9.2
13 Albanian 14.95
17 Greek 17.02
19 Sicilian 21.55
20 Italian_South 21.66

but mixed mode..... none at all.

1 86.2% English + 13.8% Armenia_ChL @ 1.45
2 84.9% Czech + 15.1% Armenia_ChL @ 1.66
3 86.5% Ukrainian + 13.5% Anatolia_ChL @ 2.12
4 86.4% English + 13.6% Armenia_MLBA @ 2.15
5 87.9% Croatian + 12.1% Steppe_IA @ 2.53
6 90.2% Hungarian + 9.8% Armenia_ChL @ 2.54
7 86.9% Scottish + 13.1% Anatolia_ChL @ 2.62
8 85.2% Scottish + 14.8% Armenia_ChL @ 2.63
9 88.7% English + 11.3% Iran_recent @ 2.9
10 87.1% Czech + 12.9% Anatolia_ChL @ 2.94
11 90.5% Hungarian + 9.5% Armenia_MLBA @ 2.99
12 85.5% Czech + 14.5% Armenia_MLBA @ 3.06
13 88.8% French + 11.2% Steppe_IA @ 3.12
14 91.8% Hungarian + 8.2% Anatolia_ChL @ 3.15
15 91% English + 9% Iran_ChL @ 3.16
16 82.2% Norwegian + 17.8% Armenia_ChL @ 3.17
17 81.8% Icelandic + 18.2% Armenia_ChL @ 3.2
18 87.6% French + 12.4% Tajik @ 3.21
19 84.2% Norwegian + 15.8% Anatolia_ChL @ 3.23
20 91.1% French + 8.9% Kalash @ 3.33

I guess that's all sort of long winded but I was trying to show how each model weighs the Mediterranean markers and there placements differently. also I have to wonder how much one's majority Ethnicity shifts their minor one.... for instance is southern Italian/Sicilian "drifted" north and reflected as Tuscan or Bergamo or North Italian because of a DNA sample being a majority NW European?