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Xehanort
11-22-2017, 08:10 AM
Hello everyone,

Here are my results modeled by Davidski in his Admixture_EBA_K7

Steppe_EBA: 0.239658
Southeast_Asian: 0.099714
Anatolia_N: 0.078884
Sub-Saharan: 0.020627
Northeast_Asian: 0.076556
Euro_HG:0.026345
Iran_N: 0.458216

And these are my results for the f4 model:

Dai: 0.182
Iran_N: 0.456
Yamnaya_Samara: 0.362

He noted that I had one of the highest Steppe admixtures among South Asian Indic populations in both models, only lower than Northwest Brahmins and Jatts, who averaged between 26 and 32 on his K7 model, and 41 and 44 on his f4 model respectively. He also noted that I showed less Dai/SE_Eurasian and more Iran_Neolithic than both of these groups.

This raises a few questions.

1) What accounts for my reduced Dai and increased Iran_Neolithic, and
2) Are these results accurate, in light of Kurd's K12 Steppe calculator?

Based on these results, could the IVC then have been pure Iran_Neolithic, with the Dai imported afterwards? Is this possible? It could be, you never know.

Thanks.

jortita
11-22-2017, 11:36 AM
Is Davidski accepting raw data, and is this a new calculator?

bmoney
11-22-2017, 01:26 PM
Hello everyone,

Here are my results modeled by Davidski in his Admixture_EBA_K7

Steppe_EBA: 0.239658
Southeast_Asian: 0.099714
Anatolia_N: 0.078884
Sub-Saharan: 0.020627
Northeast_Asian: 0.076556
Euro_HG:0.026345
Iran_N: 0.458216

And these are my results for the f4 model:

Dai: 0.182
Iran_N: 0.456
Yamnaya_Samara: 0.362

He noted that I had one of the highest Steppe admixtures among South Asian Indic populations in both models, only lower than Northwest Brahmins and Jatts, who averaged between 26 and 32 on his K7 model, and 41 and 44 on his f4 model respectively. He also noted that I showed less Dai/SE_Eurasian and more Iran_Neolithic than both of these groups.

This raises a few questions.

1) What accounts for my reduced Dai and increased Iran_Neolithic, and
2) Are these results accurate, in light of Kurd's K12 Steppe calculator?

Based on these results, could the IVC then have been pure Iran_Neolithic, with the Dai imported afterwards? Is this possible? It could be, you never know.

Thanks.

Very interesting modelling by Davidski, can he run it for the rest of us? - i like the components, though what would late steppe Andronovo come up as for the Brahmins

This is great 3 way model - should capture most of South Asia:

Dai: 0.182
Iran_N: 0.456
Yamnaya_Samara: 0.362

Based on these results, could the IVC then have been pure Iran_Neolithic, with the Dai imported afterwards? Is this possible? It could be, you never know.

Dont know until Rakhigarhi mate

EDIT: Where did the Dai component go in the K7, also could you put up a pic temporarily, want to see what a South Asian with super low ASI looks like

parasar
11-22-2017, 05:45 PM
...

Based on these results, could the IVC then have been pure Iran_Neolithic, with the Dai imported afterwards? Is this possible? It could be, you never know.

Thanks.

My thinking is that among Iran Neolithics the Indus Valley will be more WC1 like.
https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/353/6298/499/F4.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Let's see if this is supported now that Iran Neolithic has been shown to an independent region of neolithic development with no genetic connection to the Levant and Anatolia in the neolithic time-frame.
"The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia ... The prehistoric site of Mehrgarh in Baluchistan (modern Pakistan) is the earliest Neolithic site in the north-west Indian subcontinent, dated as early as 8500 BCE.
Neolithic domesticated crops in Mehrgarh include more than 90% barley and a small amount of wheat. There is good evidence for the local domestication of barley and the zebu cattle at Mehrgarh [19], [20], but the wheat varieties are suggested to be of Near-Eastern origin, as the modern distribution of wild varieties of wheat is limited to Northern Levant and Southern Turkey"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012948/

Xehanort
11-22-2017, 06:58 PM
Is Davidski accepting raw data, and is this a new calculator?

Yes, I think it's within the past two years or so. It's certainly after his work for Gedmatch, that much I know. I think you should ask him to confirm. I think if you email if, he will do it, although, he will charge a fee, as he did for me. I do think that he is accepting raw data, as he has a mini "store" on Eurogenes. It all depends on whether or not you want to pay for his services. But I am pretty certain that he will accept your raw data, and will also plot you on a PCA.

Xehanort
11-22-2017, 07:08 PM
Very interesting modelling by Davidski, can he run it for the rest of us? - i like the components, though what would late steppe Andronovo come up as for the Brahmins

This is great 3 way model - should capture most of South Asia:

Dai: 0.182
Iran_N: 0.456
Yamnaya_Samara: 0.362

Based on these results, could the IVC then have been pure Iran_Neolithic, with the Dai imported afterwards? Is this possible? It could be, you never know.

Dont know until Rakhigarhi mate

EDIT: Where did the Dai component go in the K7, also could you put up a pic temporarily, want to see what a South Asian with super low ASI looks like

I am pretty sure he can. Just email him at [email protected] I don't know about the late steppe for Brahmins, but he said that on the K7 test he did for me, UP Brahmins scored between 26 and 29 Steppe, and he then told me that Kashmiri, Pahari, and Punjabi Brahmins would like score between 29 and 32, if not a bit higher. On the f4 test, it seems though, North Indian Brahmins had a much higher Steppe, along with the Jatts, ranging between 41 and 44. But he also noted that they had a bit more Dai than me, but considerably less Iran_Neolithic (My Iran_Neolithic results are 6 to 10% higher than other North Indians).

It is a pretty good model, no doubt! And you're right, I guess we will have to wait for Rakhigarhi. Sorry, I do not want to post my pictures due to privacy reasons, but let's just say that my results don't really match my phenotype, as one would expect. They are better reflected by the rest of my family.

You're right, I guess we will have to wait and see.

Edit: The ASI in the K7 is the Southeast Asian component, and a bit of it is hidden in the Northeast Asian. Davidski said that ASI was actually closer to Southeast Asians than Australian Aborigines, as was once believed.

Xehanort
11-22-2017, 07:14 PM
My thinking is that among Iran Neolithics the Indus Valley will be more WC1 like.
Let's see if this is supported now that Iran Neolithic has been shown to an independent region of neolithic development with no genetic connection to the Levant and Anatolia in the neolithic time-frame.
"The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia ... The prehistoric site of Mehrgarh in Baluchistan (modern Pakistan) is the earliest Neolithic site in the north-west Indian subcontinent, dated as early as 8500 BCE.
Neolithic domesticated crops in Mehrgarh include more than 90% barley and a small amount of wheat. There is good evidence for the local domestication of barley and the zebu cattle at Mehrgarh [19], [20], but the wheat varieties are suggested to be of Near-Eastern origin, as the modern distribution of wild varieties of wheat is limited to Northern Levant and Southern Turkey"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012948/

I agree. Do you think the Dai admixture was imported later? Perhaps, during the Islamic era? I think that the Indus Valley civilization might have largely been of Iran_Neolithic in terms of their genetic origin. Most likely, they probably did not have much Dai/ASI at all.

parasar
11-22-2017, 09:16 PM
I agree. Do you think the Dai admixture was imported later? Perhaps, during the Islamic era? I think that the Indus Valley civilization might have largely been of Iran_Neolithic in terms of their genetic origin. Most likely, they probably did not have much Dai/ASI at all.

ASI yes. Dai, less likely.

After ancestral ASI split into ASI, East Asian, ANE, Ongee, Australian etc. there has been not much subsequent admixture, especially for the isolated Ongee. ANE is the only component that admixed into Basal in the west, with East Asian in the Americas, and with ASI in South Asia. I can't see anything else but Y-P driving this admixture.

Xehanort
11-22-2017, 09:25 PM
ASI yes. Dai, less likely.

After ancestral ASI split into ASI, East Asian, ANE, Ongee, Australian etc. there has been not much subsequent admixture, especially for the isolated Ongee. ANE is the only component that admixed into Basal in the west, with East Asian in the Americas, and with ASI in South Asia. I can't see anything else but Y-P driving this admixture.

Yes, but there's a rumor going around that the ASI were further south in India, and the Neolithic Iranians were actually the ones who were conquered by the Steppe populations in the IVC. Hence, why not much ASI is found in the Brahui or Balochi, or even Pakistani and Northwest Indian populations. If this was true, would it therefore mean that the Dai/ASI arrived north later on? I think so. Furthermore, Davidski told me that Dai modeled ASI better than Onge.

khanabadoshi
11-22-2017, 09:45 PM
Hello everyone,

Here are my results modeled by Davidski in his Admixture_EBA_K7

Steppe_EBA: 0.239658
Southeast_Asian: 0.099714
Anatolia_N: 0.078884
Sub-Saharan: 0.020627
Northeast_Asian: 0.076556
Euro_HG:0.026345
Iran_N: 0.458216

And these are my results for the f4 model:

Dai: 0.182
Iran_N: 0.456
Yamnaya_Samara: 0.362

He noted that I had one of the highest Steppe admixtures among South Asian Indic populations in both models, only lower than Northwest Brahmins and Jatts, who averaged between 26 and 32 on his K7 model, and 41 and 44 on his f4 model respectively. He also noted that I showed less Dai/SE_Eurasian and more Iran_Neolithic than both of these groups.

This raises a few questions.

1) What accounts for my reduced Dai and increased Iran_Neolithic, and
2) Are these results accurate, in light of Kurd's K12 Steppe calculator?

Based on these results, could the IVC then have been pure Iran_Neolithic, with the Dai imported afterwards? Is this possible? It could be, you never know.

Thanks.

This is different from his Basal-rich K7. When did he start offering this?

Zayd
11-22-2017, 09:58 PM
ASI yes. Dai, less likely.

After ancestral ASI split into ASI, East Asian, ANE, Ongee, Australian etc. there has been not much subsequent admixture, especially for the isolated Ongee. ANE is the only component that admixed into Basal in the west, with East Asian in the Americas, and with ASI in South Asia. I can't see anything else but Y-P driving this admixture.
Does it mean ASI = "Ancestral" ASI+ANE ?

pegasus
11-22-2017, 10:38 PM
Very interesting modelling by Davidski, can he run it for the rest of us? - i like the components, though what would late steppe Andronovo come up as for the Brahmins

This is great 3 way model - should capture most of South Asia:

Dai: 0.182
Iran_N: 0.456
Yamnaya_Samara: 0.362

Based on these results, could the IVC then have been pure Iran_Neolithic, with the Dai imported afterwards? Is this possible? It could be, you never know.

Dont know until Rakhigarhi mate

EDIT: Where did the Dai component go in the K7, also could you put up a pic temporarily, want to see what a South Asian with super low ASI looks like

Dai has the same issues as Onge , in South Asians , they have something specific and unique like Maghrebi North Africans. Also modelling a fairly common NW South Asian type at almost 40% Yamnaya is looool

Xehanort
11-22-2017, 10:43 PM
This is different from his Basal-rich K7. When did he start offering this?

Well, I don't know whether or not he started offering this to the general public. I just emailed him and he agreed to do it for me, for a fee (I wouldn't call it small, but it's not a bad price). He also plotted me on one of his PCA charts. I ended up clustering with Sindhis.

Xehanort
11-22-2017, 10:45 PM
Dai has the same issues as Onge , in South Asians , they have something specific and unique like Maghrebi North Africans. Also modelling a fairly common NW South Asian type at almost 40% Yamnaya is looool

Wait, so Maghrebis don't have actual SSA ancestry, as was long believed? I used to think that the SSA came after the Arab invasions, much like how it did in Egypt. Could you provide the necessary evidence for this? Also, 40% Yamnaya is actually a solid estimate, quite frankly.

pegasus
11-22-2017, 10:47 PM
Yes, but there's a rumor going around that the ASI were further south in India, and the Neolithic Iranians were actually the ones who were conquered by the Steppe populations in the IVC. Hence, why not much ASI is found in the Brahui or Balochi, or even Pakistani and Northwest Indian populations. If this was true, would it therefore mean that the Dai/ASI arrived north later on? I think so. Furthermore, Davidski told me that Dai modeled ASI better than Onge.

I see where your logic is going with this. FYI there are good amount of NW Indian and Pakistani populations who are almost identical to urban South Indian populations, go look at Khana's Malayali samples and compare with some of the Lahore PJL samples. If Pania are creating bad fits ( they are the most "ASI" and are South Asians ) , how are Dai who are basically Chinese going to be a better fit. East Eurasians exhibit the same complexities as West Eurasians, its like me reducing anything West Eurasian as "basal" when it could be UHG , WHG, SHG or ANE.

pegasus
11-22-2017, 11:03 PM
Wait, so Maghrebis don't have actual SSA ancestry, as was long believed? I used to think that the SSA came after the Arab invasions, much like how it did in Egypt. Could you provide the necessary evidence for this? Also, 40% Yamnaya is actually a solid estimate, quite frankly.

Neolithic Maghrebis were 20-30% SSA , even more so than most Moazabites. I have seen your other scores and you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with having higher steppe, your results are very typical for the region. You even scored lower Steppe in admixture than the other Punjabi members on here. 40% Yamnaya for any South Asian living in the Indus Gangetic plains is living in a fool's paradise.

pegasus
11-22-2017, 11:12 PM
My thinking is that among Iran Neolithics the Indus Valley will be more WC1 like.
https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/353/6298/499/F4.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Let's see if this is supported now that Iran Neolithic has been shown to an independent region of neolithic development with no genetic connection to the Levant and Anatolia in the neolithic time-frame.
"The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia ... The prehistoric site of Mehrgarh in Baluchistan (modern Pakistan) is the earliest Neolithic site in the north-west Indian subcontinent, dated as early as 8500 BCE.
Neolithic domesticated crops in Mehrgarh include more than 90% barley and a small amount of wheat. There is good evidence for the local domestication of barley and the zebu cattle at Mehrgarh [19], [20], but the wheat varieties are suggested to be of Near-Eastern origin, as the modern distribution of wild varieties of wheat is limited to Northern Levant and Southern Turkey"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012948/

I think it will be more on the Iran_N-->Hotu cline , leaning towards Hotu.
Because even when I modelled Tajiks and Pashtuns with Hotu, you get pretty damn good fits. While most Zagrosian farmers are found in and around the Zagros, the earliest type is found in NE Iran (Hotu) , S/ SE Iran I think will yield samples more specific to South Asia. Also Hotu has an East Eurasian shift ,which WC lacks.

Xehanort
11-22-2017, 11:40 PM
I see where your logic is going with this. FYI there are good amount of NW Indian and Pakistani populations who are almost identical to urban South Indian populations, go look at Khana's Malayali samples and compare with some of the Lahore PJL samples. If Pania are creating bad fits ( they are the most "ASI" and are South Asians ) , how are Dai who are basically Chinese going to be a better fit. East Eurasians exhibit the same complexities as West Eurasians, its like me reducing anything West Eurasian as "basal" when it could be UHG , WHG, SHG or ANE.

Good point, but Dai are not actually Chinese, but Southeast Asians. I guess we cannot say anything until we get our hands on IVC samples.

Xehanort
11-22-2017, 11:44 PM
Neolithic Maghrebis were 20-30% SSA , even more so than most Moazabites. I have seen your other scores and you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with having higher steppe, your results are very typical for the region. You even scored lower Steppe in admixture than the other Punjabi members on here. 40% Yamnaya for any South Asian living in the Indus Gangetic plains is living in a fool's paradise.

No I don't, and I already recognized that Jatts and Brahmins have higher Steppe than me (although, more ASI). What's not typical for the region is my reduced Dai admixture and increased Iran Neolithic admixture, which leads me to conclude that the IVC was almost entirely Iran Neolithic, and the Dai/ASI came in later. Furthermore, the Chamar are recent arrivals in my opinion, not ancient remnants. I can guarantee you on this one. They have no Steppe. Also, there are not many of them at all. The PJL samples are mainly Chammar. Finally, Neolithic Maghrebis were not 20 to 30% SSA, they were 20 to 30% similar to a population which best fits SSA. It's like saying South Asians are part Onge, when that's not true. South Asians have ancestry from a population which best fits Onge.

South Asians from high castes have 35 to 45% Yamnaya ancestry, whether you like it or not. No ifs or buts.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2017/06/ancient-herders-from-pontic-caspian.html

pegasus
11-23-2017, 01:52 AM
No I don't, and I already recognized that Jatts and Brahmins have higher Steppe than me (although, more ASI). What's not typical for the region is my reduced Dai admixture and increased Iran Neolithic admixture, which leads me to conclude that the IVC was almost entirely Iran Neolithic, and the Dai/ASI came in later. Furthermore, the Chamar are recent arrivals in my opinion, not ancient remnants. I can guarantee you on this one. They have no Steppe. Also, there are not many of them at all. The PJL samples are mainly Chammar. Finally, Neolithic Maghrebis were not 20 to 30% SSA, they were 20 to 30% similar to a population which best fits SSA. It's like saying South Asians are part Onge, when that's not true. South Asians have ancestry from a population which best fits Onge.

South Asians from high castes have 35 to 45% Yamnaya ancestry, whether you like it or not. No ifs or buts.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2017/06/ancient-herders-from-pontic-caspian.html

There are no ancient genomes from South Asia , but when you have treemix models using SC Asians you can infer a lot, because they have far better fits . A Punjabi CHamar can also be modelled as 35-45% Steppe but problem is it produces bad fits , in fact ALL South Asians do. That model he used btw has a poor fit, and its because of the issues South Asians have. Learn some statistics before making petulant statements. Also if you actually do look at the posts of other members they are confounded as to the poor fits of South Asians.

1)You have a muddled understanding, the point of demonstrating AIM, was to show you the need of unique ancient genomes to fill the gaps, ie so you can get better statistical fits not equating Onge to SSA.
2) PJL samples are Punjabi, being Chamar does not make them any less local to the area, just because they are closely genetically related to many Central and Southern Indians. Also they seem to form 30-35% of the population in the Punjab, it seems a bit higher in Western Punjab.
http://welfarepunjab.gov.in/Static/SCPopulation.html

Also you have serious delusions of grandeur, thinking SA group have that much Steppe at levels near Central Asian Tajiks.

If you are trying to make a conclusive point try and use published articles and papers rather than blogs

pegasus
11-23-2017, 01:56 AM
Good point, but Dai are not actually Chinese, but Southeast Asians. I guess we cannot say anything until we get our hands on IVC samples.

They are Southern Chinese , again you missed the point is you cannot assume all East Eurasians are of one type, if u take the 10-15% ZNF out , Pania are something unique, for that you need mesolithic and neolithic samples.

bmoney
11-23-2017, 02:05 AM
My thinking is that among Iran Neolithics the Indus Valley will be more WC1 like.
https://d2ufo47lrtsv5s.cloudfront.net/content/sci/353/6298/499/F4.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Let's see if this is supported now that Iran Neolithic has been shown to an independent region of neolithic development with no genetic connection to the Levant and Anatolia in the neolithic time-frame.
"The Near-Eastern Roots of the Neolithic in South Asia ... The prehistoric site of Mehrgarh in Baluchistan (modern Pakistan) is the earliest Neolithic site in the north-west Indian subcontinent, dated as early as 8500 BCE.
Neolithic domesticated crops in Mehrgarh include more than 90% barley and a small amount of wheat. There is good evidence for the local domestication of barley and the zebu cattle at Mehrgarh [19], [20], but the wheat varieties are suggested to be of Near-Eastern origin, as the modern distribution of wild varieties of wheat is limited to Northern Levant and Southern Turkey"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012948/

What does WC1 and Bar8 represent?

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 03:06 AM
There are no ancient genomes from South Asia , but when you have treemix models using SC Asians you can infer a lot, because they have far better fits . A Punjabi CHamar can also be modelled as 35-45% Steppe but problem is it produces bad fits , in fact ALL South Asians do. That model he used btw has a poor fit, and its because of the issues South Asians have. Learn some statistics before making petulant statements. Also if you actually do look at the posts of other members they are confounded as to the poor fits of South Asians.

1)You have a muddled understanding, the point of demonstrating AIM, was to show you the need of unique ancient genomes to fill the gaps, ie so you can get better statistical fits not equating Onge to SSA.
2) PJL samples are Punjabi, being Chamar does not make them any less local to the area, just because they are closely genetically related to many Central and Southern Indians. Also they seem to form 30-35% of the population in the Punjab, it seems a bit higher in Western Punjab.
http://welfarepunjab.gov.in/Static/SCPopulation.html

Also you have serious delusions of grandeur, thinking SA group have that much Steppe at levels near Central Asian Tajiks.

If you are trying to make a conclusive point try and use published articles and papers rather than blogs

I don't know man, it seems to me that you are making a lot of excuses and a lot of assumptions. There's no way a Chamar can be modeled as 35 to 45% Steppe. Furthermore, professional studies are biased against the IE migration theory, this is a known fact. Also, I didn't say that the Chamar were not locals, I said that they are not native to the Indus Valley. Many of them were imported en masse later on, during the Turkic dynasties, primarily from Bengal and the Deccan. You can look this up yourself, there's a lot of information on this. Many well known medieval historians, including Al-Biruni, made note of the vast amounts of slaves in North India during the medieval era. Most of these "chamars" are new arrivals. And FYI, Chamar is an insult to these people. It's best to call them, simply, Punjabis. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you any further. There also also thousands of Sheedis and Makranis in Pakistan, it doesn't mean that they are also indigenous to the region.

And no, I don't consider Steppe ancestry to be superior or anything, and never claimed such a thing. If anything, the Neolithic Iranians of the IVC were much more superior to the Steppe populations, considering that the nomads borrowed much of their civilization from the original inhabitants of the Indus, as well as those of BMAC and Yaz.

Finally, it's not all South Asians who have the same Steppe levels as the Tajiks. It's only a minority of groups, who in total make no more than 5 to 10% of the Subcontinent's population.

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 03:09 AM
They are Southern Chinese , again you missed the point is you cannot assume all East Eurasians are of one type, if u take the 10-15% ZNF out , Pania are something unique, for that you need mesolithic and neolithic samples.

They're basically Southeast Asians in China, not actual Han Chinese. I think you're the one who missed the point.

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 03:10 AM
What does WC1 and Bar8 represent?

WC1 is a Neolithic Iranian sample, and Bar8/Barcin is a Neolithic European sample. I just think that they refer to the locations where the samples were found, although I do not know, quite frankly.

pegasus
11-23-2017, 06:42 AM
They're basically Southeast Asians in China, not actual Han Chinese. I think you're the one who missed the point.

If this is your attempt at trolling your doing a piss poor job of it.

pegasus
11-23-2017, 06:55 AM
What does WC1 and Bar8 represent?

Wazmeh sample and Bar8 is Barcin ANF, but this paper was flawed in it showed Zoroastrians as relic Iran_N populations, when actually South Iranians/Bandaris along with Brahui and Baloch. There was a big forum discussion on it here from 1.5 year back
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7459-The-genetic-landscape-of-Iran-and-the-legacy-of-Zoroastrianism

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 06:56 AM
If this is your attempt at trolling your doing a piss poor job of it.

No, not trolling. The Dai inhabit the border between Vietnam and China, and have considerable admixture (80 to 90%) from a Taiwanese Aborigine-like population, i.e. Austronesian. Hence, the similarity between them and the original ASI.

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 06:58 AM
Wazmeh sample and Bar8 is Barcin ANF, but this paper was flawed in it showed Zoroastrians as relic Iran_N populations, when actually South Iranians/Bandaris along with Brahui and Baloch. There was a big forum discussion on it here from 1.5 year back
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7459-The-genetic-landscape-of-Iran-and-the-legacy-of-Zoroastrianism

Finally, I agree with you for once, specifically on the manner in which the article handled Zoroastrians. Although, I have to disagree with the Bandaris being a relic population. They're likely just descendants of imported Baloch populations by the Omanis, with 5 to 40% SSA ancestry. They are certainly not a relic population of any sort.

passion
11-23-2017, 07:02 AM
I don't know man, it seems to me that you are making a lot of excuses and a lot of assumptions. There's no way a Chamar can be modeled as 35 to 45% Steppe. Furthermore, professional studies are biased against the IE migration theory, this is a known fact. Also, I didn't say that the Chamar were not locals, I said that they are not native to the Indus Valley. Many of them were imported en masse later on, during the Turkic dynasties, primarily from Bengal and the Deccan. You can look this up yourself, there's a lot of information on this. Many well known medieval historians, including Al-Biruni, made note of the vast amounts of slaves in North India during the medieval era. Most of these "chamars" are new arrivals. And FYI, Chamar is an insult to these people. It's best to call them, simply, Punjabis. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you any further. There also also thousands of Sheedis and Makranis in Pakistan, it doesn't mean that they are also indigenous to the region.

And no, I don't consider Steppe ancestry to be superior or anything, and never claimed such a thing. If anything, the Neolithic Iranians of the IVC were much more superior to the Steppe populations, considering that the nomads borrowed much of their civilization from the original inhabitants of the Indus, as well as those of BMAC and Yaz.

Finally, it's not all South Asians who have the same Steppe levels as the Tajiks. It's only a minority of groups, who in total make no more than 5 to 10% of the Subcontinent's population.
British brought lot of menial castes from North India during Canal construction in west Punjab

pegasus
11-23-2017, 07:13 AM
I don't know man, it seems to me that you are making a lot of excuses and a lot of assumptions. There's no way a Chamar can be modeled as 35 to 45% Steppe. Furthermore, professional studies are biased against the IE migration theory, this is a known fact. Also, I didn't say that the Chamar were not locals, I said that they are not native to the Indus Valley. Many of them were imported en masse later on, during the Turkic dynasties, primarily from Bengal and the Deccan. You can look this up yourself, there's a lot of information on this. Many well known medieval historians, including Al-Biruni, made note of the vast amounts of slaves in North India during the medieval era. Most of these "chamars" are new arrivals. And FYI, Chamar is an insult to these people. It's best to call them, simply, Punjabis. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you any further. There also also thousands of Sheedis and Makranis in Pakistan, it doesn't mean that they are also indigenous to the region.

And no, I don't consider Steppe ancestry to be superior or anything, and never claimed such a thing. If anything, the Neolithic Iranians of the IVC were much more superior to the Steppe populations, considering that the nomads borrowed much of their civilization from the original inhabitants of the Indus, as well as those of BMAC and Yaz.

Finally, it's not all South Asians who have the same Steppe levels as the Tajiks. It's only a minority of groups, who in total make no more than 5 to 10% of the Subcontinent's population.

Again your going off on different tangents and doing a poor job of trolling. What you think is of little consequence to me, but twisting and misconstruing facts to suit your narrative is where I will correct it and I have done it countless times with ex/banned members, familiarize yourself with the advanced search button to find out. You said upper caste South Asians, thats a pretty large demographic to have that much Steppe. It makes sense for SC Asian groups, for 2 reasons, these are the first groups these Steppe Nomads mixed with and secondly the region experiences wave after wave of them until antiquity.
NO South Asian group has Steppe levels comparable with Pamiri Tajiks, but even they show substantial Zagrosian ancestry.

pegasus
11-23-2017, 07:27 AM
British brought lot of menial castes from North India during Canal construction in west Punjab

That would be true if the formed a small portion of the population, but not when they comprise a good 1/3 of the population, those 'menial' castes are largely local. Perhaps Khana can elaborate more on this as he has travelled Pakistan extensively. Also Duffy has mentioned more on them so he can say more but based of the genetics alone, they form a substantial part of the population in the Punjab region (both in Pakistan and India).

pegasus
11-23-2017, 07:35 AM
Finally, I agree with you for once, specifically on the manner in which the article handled Zoroastrians. Although, I have to disagree with the Bandaris being a relic population. They're likely just descendants of imported Baloch populations by the Omanis, with 5 to 40% SSA ancestry. They are certainly not a relic population of any sort.

Many Bandaris and all Larestanis have no SSA and they are not imports what are you talking? The ones in Hormozogan do have minor SSA and your confusing Bandaris with Zanj people, who live in Khuzestan.

passion
11-23-2017, 07:44 AM
That would be true if the formed a small portion of the population, but not when they comprise a good 1/3 of the population, those 'menial' castes are largely local. Perhaps Khana can elaborate more on this as he has travelled Pakistan extensively. Also Duffy has mentioned more on them so he can say more but based of the genetics alone, they form a substantial part of the population in the Punjab region (both in Pakistan and India).

of course they make substantial portion of population, according to my estimate by travelling in Pak Punjab atleast 20-30% of people belong to these type of groups based on phenotype. they are mostly concentrated in urban centers .Thats why I always say you can fit any type of South Asian in Punjab without much difficulty.

passion
11-23-2017, 07:53 AM
That would be true if the formed a small portion of the population, but not when they comprise a good 1/3 of the population, those 'menial' castes are largely local. Perhaps Khana can elaborate more on this as he has travelled Pakistan extensively. Also Duffy has mentioned more on them so he can say more but based of the genetics alone, they form a substantial part of the population in the Punjab region (both in Pakistan and India).

Here is study on Pak Punjab

http://www.researchcollective.org/Documents/Class_caste_and_housing_in_Punjab.pdf

according to it

Chuhra all religions = 1.3%
Mussalli = 3.3%
Muslim kammi = 20.6%
Muslim cultivator castes = 42.8%
Others = 32%


Muslim cultivator castes are for sure High castes(arains ,jatts, etc) now "others" are Khatris or Pashtun/Baloch/kashmiris settled in Punjab (Niazis, Lagharis, Burkis etc). and people who claim foreign origin like Quereshi/gilani(many low castes also claim foreign/Sheikh origin). Muslim Kammis are real low castes but they can also include Tarkhan and Gujjers who are genetically high caste. All in All it is safe to say the 20-30% of Pak Punjab belong to menial/chammar/dalit type population

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 08:27 AM
Many Bandaris and all Larestanis have no SSA and they are not imports what are you talking? The ones in Hormozogan do have minor SSA and your confusing Bandaris with Zanj people, who live in Khuzestan.

No, Bandaris have 5 to 40% SSA. This is common knowledge at this point.

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 08:30 AM
Here is study on Pak Punjab

http://www.researchcollective.org/Documents/Class_caste_and_housing_in_Punjab.pdf

according to it

Chuhra all religions = 1.3%
Mussalli = 3.3%
Muslim kammi = 20.6%
Muslim cultivator castes = 42.8%
Others = 32%


Muslim cultivator castes are for sure High castes(arains ,jatts, etc) now "others" are Khatris or Pashtun/Baloch/kashmiris settled in Punjab (Niazis, Lagharis, Burkis etc). and people who claim foreign origin like Quereshi/gilani(many low castes also claim foreign/Sheikh origin). Muslim Kammis are real low castes but they can also include Tarkhan and Gujjers who are genetically high caste. All in All it is safe to say the 20-30% of Pak Punjab belong to menial/chammar/dalit type population

The Arains and Jatts from where I am from are considered Kammis. Just because Gujjars are Kammis in one region, doesn't necessarily mean that we're Kammis all over Pakistan. Anyway, Massalis and Chuhras are the real Chammars, and they are a small, small minority. My great grandfather owned 100 acres of land, how does this mean that he was a Kammi? Please be careful, your choices of words can and do easily offend some people.

passion
11-23-2017, 08:48 AM
The Arains and Jatts from where I am from are considered Kammis. Just because Gujjars are Kammis in one region, doesn't necessarily mean that we're Kammis all over Pakistan. Anyway, Massalis and Chuhras are the real Chammars, and they are a small, small minority. My great grandfather owned 100 acres of land, how does this mean that he was a Kammi? Please be careful, your choices of words can and do easily offend some people.

I know , here is a gujjer farmer from Potohar , can easily pass in Gilgit Baltistan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTJJJvV-Hiw

pegasus
11-23-2017, 09:25 AM
No, Bandaris have 5 to 40% SSA. This is common knowledge at this point.

Jesus and DMXX are the main sources of info here on all things Iran related
Even Jesus noted most Bandari samples didn't have more than 2-3% SSA, so you yet again your misinformed as usual.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12544-Religious-impact-of-genetics-in-South-Asia&p=307409&viewfull=1#post307409

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 09:27 AM
I know , here is a gujjer farmer from Potohar , can easily pass in Gilgit Baltistan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTJJJvV-Hiw

I think these castes are pretty arbitrary, but there is always a genetic factor.

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 09:30 AM
Jesus and DMXX are the main sources of info here on all things Iran related
Even Jesus noted most Bandari samples didn't have more than 2-3% SSA, so you yet again your misinformed as usual.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12544-Religious-impact-of-genetics-in-South-Asia&p=307409&viewfull=1#post307409

Just ask Davidski and take a look at his samples. Under his calculations, Bandaris had between 3 and 19% SSA, with an average of 7. Still considerable, but Davidski told me that it took be much higher in the port cities, i.e. Bandar Abbas and Bushehr. One thing is certain, Bandaris are more Baloch-like, and less Iran-like, and are the most like Makranis.

pegasus
11-23-2017, 09:37 AM
Here is study on Pak Punjab

http://www.researchcollective.org/Documents/Class_caste_and_housing_in_Punjab.pdf

according to it

Chuhra all religions = 1.3%
Mussalli = 3.3%
Muslim kammi = 20.6%
Muslim cultivator castes = 42.8%
Others = 32%


Muslim cultivator castes are for sure High castes(arains ,jatts, etc) now "others" are Khatris or Pashtun/Baloch/kashmiris settled in Punjab (Niazis, Lagharis, Burkis etc). and people who claim foreign origin like Quereshi/gilani(many low castes also claim foreign/Sheikh origin). Muslim Kammis are real low castes but they can also include Tarkhan and Gujjers who are genetically high caste. All in All it is safe to say the 20-30% of Pak Punjab belong to menial/chammar/dalit type population

But the PJL Lahore samples paint a very different picture. They might not call themselves a 'chamar" or "dalit" in Pakistani Punjab, but the proof is in the pudding. Also logically it makes sense, a large portion of the population is like them . Khana posted them again recently , you can look at them. West of the Indus, its a different story though. East of the Indus, where most of the population lives, there is no dearth of these Pan South Asian genetic type profiles.

pegasus
11-23-2017, 09:44 AM
Just ask Davidski and take a look at his samples. Under his calculations, Bandaris had between 3 and 19% SSA, with an average of 7. Still considerable, but Davidski told me that it took be much higher in the port cities, i.e. Bandar Abbas and Bushehr. One thing is certain, Bandaris are more Baloch-like, and less Iran-like, and are the most like Makranis.

Thats quite a ridiculous statement and I know your trolling.
Jesus is from Iran, and is very familiar with that region. I will leave it at that.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-23-2017, 12:19 PM
Here is study on Pak Punjab

http://www.researchcollective.org/Documents/Class_caste_and_housing_in_Punjab.pdf

according to it

Chuhra all religions = 1.3%
Mussalli = 3.3%
Muslim kammi = 20.6%
Muslim cultivator castes = 42.8%
Others = 32%


Muslim cultivator castes are for sure High castes(arains ,jatts, etc) now "others" are Khatris or Pashtun/Baloch/kashmiris settled in Punjab (Niazis, Lagharis, Burkis etc). and people who claim foreign origin like Quereshi/gilani(many low castes also claim foreign/Sheikh origin). Muslim Kammis are real low castes but they can also include Tarkhan and Gujjers who are genetically high caste. All in All it is safe to say the 20-30% of Pak Punjab belong to menial/chammar/dalit type population

I don’t know about Tarkhan’s muslim version, but Hindu Tarkhans are seen mid caste (OBC) like jatts, kambojs, sainis and arains etc here. While Sikh Tarkhans are second in power after Jatts.

Here’s something I’ll point out, Punjabi Tarkhans don’t share any surnames with Carpenters of any other region of south asia. Even Pahari tarkhans or harayanvi tarkhans have different surnames and these groups don’t intermarry as Punjabi tarkhans look down on them.

So we’re natuve to Punjab I’d say.

ancestryfan1994
11-23-2017, 04:58 PM
Thats quite a ridiculous statement and I know your trolling.
Jesus is from Iran, and is very familiar with that region. I will leave it at that.

I have personally seen some Bandari samples uploaded by khanabadoshi which reflect xehanorts comments, if im not mistaken. So the comments he made are sort of valid, but not to the extent where everybody from Bandar Abbas and Bushehr will be of that genetic profile. My family have strong roots in Bushehr as an example, and we have for the most part a very regular ethnic Persian profile.

Xehanort
11-23-2017, 06:58 PM
I have personally seen some Bandari samples uploaded by khanabadoshi which reflect xehanorts comments, if im not mistaken. So the comments he made are sort of valid, but not to the extent where everybody from Bandar Abbas and Bushehr will be of that genetic profile. My family have strong roots in Bushehr as an example, and we have for the most part a very regular ethnic Persian profile.

Thanks for pointing it out mate. It's obvious that the Bandaris do carry significant SSA ancestry by Iranian standards. I appreciate your reply, but this man is just way too ignorant to realize the realities.

pegasus
11-24-2017, 02:24 AM
Thanks for pointing it out mate. It's obvious that the Bandaris do carry significant SSA ancestry by Iranian standards. I appreciate your reply, but this man is just way too ignorant to realize the realities.

Coming after a month with trollish posts with inane assumptions, you make bizarre statements which are quite puzzling.

pegasus
11-24-2017, 02:39 AM
I have personally seen some Bandari samples uploaded by khanabadoshi which reflect xehanorts comments, if im not mistaken. So the comments he made are sort of valid, but not to the extent where everybody from Bandar Abbas and Bushehr will be of that genetic profile. My family have strong roots in Bushehr as an example, and we have for the most part a very regular ethnic Persian profile.

Some are Zanj shifted , his point is that the Omani's brought them there lol, . Also because of archaic basal affinities , it does come out out as SSA on admixture calculators and it does hover between 1-3% , those are the samples Jesus talking about.
Even Iran_N has that issue, it does not mean he has Zanj ancestry, it means their basal portion is archaic. I looked at other samples of other Bandaris and ran them , Iranian and SC Asians work best on nmonte. You get a very good fit and look and behold , no SSA.
distance%=0.4488 / distance=0.004488

Iranian_Bandari

Iran_N 50.6
Andronovo 23.4
Levant_N 16.0
Paniya 10.0
CHG 0.0
Kyrgyz 0.0

ancestryfan1994
11-24-2017, 02:48 AM
Some are Zanj shifted , his point is that the Omani's brought them there lol, . Also because of archaic basal affinities , it does come out out as SSA on admixture calculators and it does hover between 1-3% , those are the samples Jesus talking about.
Even Iran_N has that issue, it does not mean he has Zanj ancestry, it means their basal portion is archaic. I looked at other samples of other Bandaris and ran them , Iranian and SC Asians work best on nmonte. You get a very good fit and look and behold , no SSA.
distance%=0.4488 / distance=0.004488

Iranian_Bandari

Iran_N 50.6
Andronovo 23.4
Levant_N 16.0
Paniya 10.0
CHG 0.0
Kyrgyz 0.0

Honestly you should ask khanabadoshi to chime in, as he was the one who uploaded some Bandari samples to GEDmatch genesis, maybe he can pull up their admixture results again in case I'm missing something. I just ran the kits through a few admixture calculators to see how those specific ones stack up against other southern Iranians like myself, they seemed like pretty large outliers, and not representative of southern Iranians as a whole. Most likely this is due to some recent Zanj shift of those samples like you mentioned.

khanabadoshi
11-24-2017, 03:00 AM
Some are Zanj shifted , his point is that the Omani's brought them there lol, . Also because of archaic basal affinities , it does come out out as SSA on admixture calculators and it does hover between 1-3% , those are the samples Jesus talking about.
Even Iran_N has that issue, it does not mean he has Zanj ancestry, it means their basal portion is archaic. I looked at other samples of other Bandaris and ran them , Iranian and SC Asians work best on nmonte. You get a very good fit and look and behold , no SSA.
distance%=0.4488 / distance=0.004488

Iranian_Bandari

Iran_N 50.6
Andronovo 23.4
Levant_N 16.0
Paniya 10.0
CHG 0.0
Kyrgyz 0.0


Honestly you should ask khanabadoshi to chime in, as he was the one who uploaded some Bandari samples to GEDmatch genesis, maybe he can pull up their admixture results again in case I'm missing something. I just ran the kits through a few admixture calculators to see how those specific ones stack up against other southern Iranians like myself, they seemed like pretty large outliers, and not representative of southern Iranians as a whole. Most likely this is due to some recent Zanj shift of those samples like you mentioned.

I haven't run them yet. I'll do it tonight on puntK13. I have a 2 Emirati Baloch as well, an Omani Baloch, an Omani "Al-Kashmiri" that plots like Baloch, and a few Persian Gulf Islanders. They'll make good comparisons.


EDIT: Also, I'm not sure if I've uploaded the entire Iranian set I have. I think I've only done half. I don't have Iranian Mazandarani, Lur, etc... If anyone can point me to a plink set with them, I'll upload them.

pegasus
11-24-2017, 03:02 AM
Honestly you should ask khanabadoshi to chime in, as he was the one who uploaded some Bandari samples to GEDmatch genesis, maybe he can pull up their admixture results again in case I'm missing something. I just ran the kits through a few admixture calculators to see how they stack up against other southern Iranians like myself, they seemed like pretty large outliers, and not representative of southern Iranians as a whole. Most likely this is due to some recent Zanj shift of those samples like you mentioned.

The ones he has our more SSA shifted, my guess from Hormuzogan , that being said , this notion that all of Southern Iran is awash with Zanj ancestry is very wrong. The one Larestani (people living on the border between Fars and Hormozogan) sample I remember seeing was a lot like the Bandaris, in other words , there is a continuum which stretches all the way into SW Pakistan. In any case , Jesus can elaborate more.

ancestryfan1994
11-24-2017, 03:02 AM
I haven't run them yet. I'll do it tonight on puntK13. I have a 2 Emirati Baloch as well, an Omani Baloch, an Omani "Al-Kashmiri" that plots like Baloch, and a few Persian Gulf Islanders. They'll make good comparisons.

If my memory serves me right, the ones you uploaded to genesis had substantial SSA and South Asian admixture.

ancestryfan1994
11-24-2017, 03:07 AM
The ones he has our more SSA shifted, my guess from Hormuzogan , that being said , this notion that all of Southern Iran is awash with Zanj ancestry is very wrong. The one Larestani (people living on the border between Fars and Hormozogan) sample I remember seeing was a lot like the Bandaris, in other words , there is a continuum which stretches all the way into SW Pakistan. In any case , Jesus can elaborate more.

I agree with you, and would be the first one to rebuff such a statement (all southern Iranians are heavily admixed with SSA and south asian), but such admixture patterns probably do exist to some small degree in a small number of people from the south, not just from the genetic profiles i saw on GEDmatch genesis, but I've seen very small pockets of minorities of people from the south that clearly looked admixed, and atypical of what you would expect for most regular Iranians in the south, which in all honesty, don't differ much from any Iranian up north etc.

khanabadoshi
11-24-2017, 03:18 AM
The ones he has our more SSA shifted, my guess from Hormuzogan , that being said , this notion that all of Southern Iran is awash with Zanj ancestry is very wrong. The one Larestani (people living on the border between Fars and Hormozogan) sample I remember seeing was a lot like the Bandaris, in other words , there is a continuum which stretches all the way into SW Pakistan. In any case , Jesus can elaborate more.


If my memory serves me right, the ones you uploaded to genesis had substantial SSA and South Asian admixture.

These are the Iranian samples I have:

Iranian_GMII7
Iranian_GMII16
Iranian_GMII18
Iranian_GMII19
Iranian_GMII20
Iranian_GMII22
Iranian_GMII29
Iranian_GMII36
Iranian_GMII54
Iranian_GMII79
Iranian_iran2
Iranian_iran3
Iranian_iran11
Iranian_iran14
Iranian_iran16
Iranian_iran17
Iranian_iran19
Iranian_iran20
Iranian_LORII9
Iranian_LORII19
Iranian_LORII34
Iranian_LORII36
Iranian_LORII44
Iranian_LORII48
Iranian_LORII50
Iranian_LORII51
Iranian_LORII52
Iranian_LORII58
Iranian_SHII20
Iranian_SHII25
Iranian_SHII27
Iranian_SHII37
Iranian_SHII51
Iranian_SHII66
Iranian_SHII72
Iranian_SHII87
Iranian_SHII91
Iranian_SHII94
Iranians_Iran3
Iranians_Iran4
Iranian_Bandari_BanII4
Iranian_Bandari_BanII30
Iranian_Bandari_BanII38
Iranian_Bandari_BanII40
Iranian_Bandari_BanII47
Iranian_Bandari_BanII55
Iranian_Bandari_BanII80
Iranian_Bandari_BanII90


Total of 8 Bandaris. If there is another study with Bandaris it must be the one that also has the Mazandaranis etc... but Kurd sent me some more samples, Like Iranian Fars. There might be more Bandaris in that set. I'll check.

Xehanort
11-24-2017, 10:36 PM
The ones he has our more SSA shifted, my guess from Hormuzogan , that being said , this notion that all of Southern Iran is awash with Zanj ancestry is very wrong. The one Larestani (people living on the border between Fars and Hormozogan) sample I remember seeing was a lot like the Bandaris, in other words , there is a continuum which stretches all the way into SW Pakistan. In any case , Jesus can elaborate more.

Stop making stupid excuses and stop lying. You're a complete idiot who has no sense of what he's saying. All you do is insult people.

Xehanort
11-24-2017, 10:37 PM
I agree with you, and would be the first one to rebuff such a statement (all southern Iranians are heavily admixed with SSA and south asian), but such admixture patterns probably do exist to some small degree in a small number of people from the south, not just from the genetic profiles i saw on GEDmatch genesis, but I've seen very small pockets of minorities of people from the south that clearly looked admixed, and atypical of what you would expect for most regular Iranians in the south, which in all honesty, don't differ much from any Iranian up north etc.

I agree, and I rebuff such a notion as well. The majority of Iranians are not mixed, but Bandaris are most certainly, and undoubtedly, mixed with SSA and South Asians.

Xehanort
11-24-2017, 10:39 PM
These are the Iranian samples I have:

Iranian_GMII7
Iranian_GMII16
Iranian_GMII18
Iranian_GMII19
Iranian_GMII20
Iranian_GMII22
Iranian_GMII29
Iranian_GMII36
Iranian_GMII54
Iranian_GMII79
Iranian_iran2
Iranian_iran3
Iranian_iran11
Iranian_iran14
Iranian_iran16
Iranian_iran17
Iranian_iran19
Iranian_iran20
Iranian_LORII9
Iranian_LORII19
Iranian_LORII34
Iranian_LORII36
Iranian_LORII44
Iranian_LORII48
Iranian_LORII50
Iranian_LORII51
Iranian_LORII52
Iranian_LORII58
Iranian_SHII20
Iranian_SHII25
Iranian_SHII27
Iranian_SHII37
Iranian_SHII51
Iranian_SHII66
Iranian_SHII72
Iranian_SHII87
Iranian_SHII91
Iranian_SHII94
Iranians_Iran3
Iranians_Iran4
Iranian_Bandari_BanII4
Iranian_Bandari_BanII30
Iranian_Bandari_BanII38
Iranian_Bandari_BanII40
Iranian_Bandari_BanII47
Iranian_Bandari_BanII55
Iranian_Bandari_BanII80
Iranian_Bandari_BanII90


Total of 8 Bandaris. If there is another study with Bandaris it must be the one that also has the Mazandaranis etc... but Kurd sent me some more samples, Like Iranian Fars. There might be more Bandaris in that set. I'll check.

Thanks, please prove this Pegasus guy wrong. He continuously insults people and accuses others of trolling, denies the Aryan Invasion, and acts like a douche overall. All he does is insult others. I have been very tolerable of him but it is hard to tolerate.

jesus
11-24-2017, 11:22 PM
These are the Iranian samples I have:

Iranian_GMII7
Iranian_GMII16
Iranian_GMII18
Iranian_GMII19
Iranian_GMII20
Iranian_GMII22
Iranian_GMII29
Iranian_GMII36
Iranian_GMII54
Iranian_GMII79
Iranian_iran2
Iranian_iran3
Iranian_iran11
Iranian_iran14
Iranian_iran16
Iranian_iran17
Iranian_iran19
Iranian_iran20
Iranian_LORII9
Iranian_LORII19
Iranian_LORII34
Iranian_LORII36
Iranian_LORII44
Iranian_LORII48
Iranian_LORII50
Iranian_LORII51
Iranian_LORII52
Iranian_LORII58
Iranian_SHII20
Iranian_SHII25
Iranian_SHII27
Iranian_SHII37
Iranian_SHII51
Iranian_SHII66
Iranian_SHII72
Iranian_SHII87
Iranian_SHII91
Iranian_SHII94
Iranians_Iran3
Iranians_Iran4
Iranian_Bandari_BanII4
Iranian_Bandari_BanII30
Iranian_Bandari_BanII38
Iranian_Bandari_BanII40
Iranian_Bandari_BanII47
Iranian_Bandari_BanII55
Iranian_Bandari_BanII80
Iranian_Bandari_BanII90


Total of 8 Bandaris. If there is another study with Bandaris it must be the one that also has the Mazandaranis etc... but Kurd sent me some more samples, Like Iranian Fars. There might be more Bandaris in that set. I'll check.


There are no other studies with Iranian Bandaris. Only one study. BTW, the GMII samples are all Mazandaranis.

khanabadoshi
11-24-2017, 11:32 PM
There are no other studies with Iranian Bandaris. Only one study. BTW, the GMII samples are all Mazandaranis.

Thanks!

GMII = Mazandarani and LOR = Lur? SH = Shirazi or Shi'a? (Study said it named by location/religion).

Pagini et. al has 2 Kerman samples which I should group as separate?



Iran1
GS000013747-ASM
1
1
West_Asia_Armenia
0
male
J2a8
Iranians
Kerman
Iran


Iran2
GS000014475-ASM
1
1
West_Asia_Armenia
0
male
G2a4
Iranians
Kerman
Iran


Iran3
GS000016875-ASM
1
1
West_Asia_Armenia
0
male
R1a2
Iranians
Iran
Iran


Iran4
GS000016179-ASM
1
1
West_Asia_Armenia
0
male
E2a3
Iranians
Iran
Iran




There are also 2 Kuwaiti Iranians:



LP6005442-DNA_C04
iran17
iran17
S_Iranian-1
Iranian
WestEurasia
Iran
migrants_collected_in_Kuwait
Mait Metspalu / Ene Metspalu / Richard Villems / JŸri Parik


LP6005443-DNA_B10
iran11
iran11
S_Iranian-2
Iranian
WestEurasia
Iran
migrants_collected_in_Kuwait
Mait Metspalu / Ene Metspalu / Richard Villems / JŸri Parik

parasar
11-24-2017, 11:33 PM
Does it mean ASI = "Ancestral" ASI+ANE ?

Ancestral ASI = ancestors of ASI, ANE, East Asian, Australian etc., or in other terms ENA + WHG +ANE that form a clade with respect to Basal.
Ust Ishim is essentially Ancestral ASI.

jesus
11-24-2017, 11:51 PM
Just ask Davidski and take a look at his samples. Under his calculations, Bandaris had between 3 and 19% SSA, with an average of 7. Still considerable, but Davidski told me that it took be much higher in the port cities, i.e. Bandar Abbas and Bushehr. One thing is certain, Bandaris are more Baloch-like, and less Iran-like, and are the most like Makranis.

Those Bandaris are all from coastal cities. All are from Bandar Abbas itself.

Makranis are a bit more western shifted than Balochis and Brahuis. All of these Baloch groups look like eastern shifted Iranians anyways.

Bandaris are usually closer to other Iranians and in many cases Afghans before proper Baloch groups. There is definitely a lot of ancient shared ancestry in the region. It could be Marhashi related.

Marhashi (Marhasi / Barashe / Warahshe)


This was a very poorly attested but clearly important state or confederation which lay immediately to the east of Elam in Iran, bordering it closely near Anshan. Its eastern borders are unknown, and even its exact location cannot be pinpointed specifically, although it is recorded as having been south of Gutium, which was in the central Zagros Mountain range. The archaeological site of Jiroft has been put forward as the polity's capital city. Its language was only very partially related to Elamite, but may have been in use as far east as the modern Iranian border, just west of Baluchistan.

During the twenty-third century BC Marhashi (or Warahshe in earlier records) was a major opponent of the Akkadian empire, and seemed to have overrun Elam for a time, uniting local efforts against the Akkadians. In fact, it may have been the incessant military campaigns of Akkad which brought about the greater cohesion of Marhashi as a state as local rulers joined forces in a defensive reaction.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/EasternMarhashi.htm

Not sure how legit this map is, but it looks fairly decent when it comes to eastern Iran.

https://s28.postimg.org/idjbe34kd/Ancient_ME_Languages_B.png

Let's go back to Bandaris. The average SSA is 6-7% because 2 of the 8 samples score more than 10% SSA(Around 10% and 18%). While others score 3% and less. The region is diverse, and many will score 0%. Also, you'll find pockets of unmixed Africans but they're a dwindling minority because most ended up mixing with the locals or were already mixed before their arrival to Iran. The are well documented historical alliances/marriages between Shirazi/Sirafi Persian traders/colonizers and local African kingdoms and tribes in south east Africa(Largely in modern day Kenya and Tanzania).

I found these 6 bandari samples on Gedmatch. Humza can pos the kit number of the other lost 2 samples lol.

Bandari 1


Kit DS2185028

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 41.77
2 Indian 35.64
3 Steppe 8.6
4 NearEast 4.83
5 Neolithic 4.19
6 EastAfrican 1.39
7 NorthEastEuropean 1.32
8 Subsaharian 1.11
9 NorthAfrican 0.89
10 Oceanic 0.26

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 6.66
2 Makrani (Pakistan) 9.9
3 Pashtun (Afganistan) 9.94
4 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 12.93
5 Pashtun (Pakistan) 13.29
6 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 13.57
7 Balochi (Baluchistan) 13.68
8 Brahui (Baluchistan) 13.71
9 Iranian (Kerman) 14.75
10 Iranian (Fars) 15.26
11 Zoroastrian (Iran) 15.38
12 Iranian (Iran) 15.46
13 Jew (Mumbai) 16.6
14 Iran_Lor (Lor) 16.82
15 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 17.29
16 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 17.57
17 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 17.9
18 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 18.02
19 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 18.63
20 Pathan (Punjab) 18.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 34.1% Armenian (Yerevan) @ 1.52
2 65.9% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 34.1% Armenian (Yerevan) @ 1.54
3 64.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Martuni) @ 1.54
4 64.9% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Martuni) @ 1.57
5 64.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Dprabak) @ 1.58
6 65% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 35% Armenian (Dprabak) @ 1.61
7 64.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Chambarak) @ 1.62
8 66.6% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 33.4% Assyrian (Armenia) @ 1.69
9 64.9% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Chambarak) @ 1.71
10 55.2% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 44.8% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 1.74
11 55.2% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 44.8% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 1.77
12 58.9% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 41.1% Kurd (Syria) @ 1.82
13 58.8% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 41.2% Kurd (Syria) @ 1.82
14 52.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 47.1% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 1.9
15 53.1% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 46.9% Iranian (Iran) @ 1.92
16 64.8% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 35.2% Assyrian (Turkey) @ 1.93
17 52.7% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 47.3% Iranian (Fars) @ 1.99
18 53% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 47% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 2
19 52.8% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 47.2% Iranian (Fars) @ 2.02
20 61.2% Makrani (Pakistan) + 38.8% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 2.08



Bandari 2



Kit RA4087483

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 33.91
2 Indian 23.02
3 Subsaharian 13.92
4 Steppe 6.65
5 NearEast 6.35
6 EastAfrican 4.17
7 NorthEastEuropean 4
8 Neolithic 2.77
9 Ancestor 2.32
10 Amerindian 1.73
11 Oceanic 0.69
12 Australian 0.36
13 NorthAfrican 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 13.09
2 Iranian (Kerman) 16.82
3 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 18.84
4 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 19.28
5 Pashtun (Afganistan) 19.38
6 Tajik (Tajikistan) 19.39
7 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 19.42
8 Iranian (Iran) 19.69
9 Zoroastrian (Iran) 19.85
10 Iranian (Fars) 19.9
11 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 20.33
12 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 20.36
13 Turkmens (Turkmenistan) 20.4
14 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 20.55
15 Iran_Lor (Lor) 20.7
16 Shugnan (Badachshan) 20.75
17 Roma (Gypsy) 20.89
18 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 20.93
19 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 21.05
20 Azeri (Azerbaijan) 21.12

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 14.8% Luo (Kenya) @ 4.44
2 85.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 14.6% Luhya (Kenya) @ 4.5
3 82.5% Iranian (Bandari) + 17.5% Kikuyu (Kenya) @ 4.86
4 86.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 13.8% Bantu (SA_Zulu) @ 5.16
5 80.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 19.3% Maasai (Ayodo) @ 5.16
6 85.3% Iranian (Bandari) + 14.7% Afroamerican (Denver) @ 5.17
7 87.1% Iranian (Bandari) + 12.9% Bantu (SA_Herero) @ 5.45
8 88.5% Iranian (Bandari) + 11.5% Mende (Sierra_Leone) @ 6.07
9 88.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 11.6% Gambian (Gambia) @ 6.12
10 81.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 18.3% Siddi (Makran) @ 6.14
11 88.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 11.6% Mandenka (Gambia) @ 6.15
12 89% Iranian (Bandari) + 11% Yoruba (Nigeria) @ 6.3
13 89% Iranian (Bandari) + 11% Esan (Nigeria) @ 6.32
14 72.1% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 27.9% Siddi (Makran) @ 6.42
15 73.4% Zoroastrian (Iran) + 26.6% Siddi (Makran) @ 6.85
16 86.8% Iranian (Bandari) + 13.2% Congo (Pygmy) @ 7.18
17 66.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 33.1% Yemeni (Yemen) @ 7.35
18 78.3% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 21.7% Luo (Kenya) @ 7.39
19 72.7% Iran_Lor (Lor) + 27.3% Siddi (Makran) @ 7.56
20 78.6% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 21.4% Luhya (Kenya) @ 7.


Bandari 3


Kit GZ9303501

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 42.23
2 Indian 32.47
3 Steppe 9.96
4 NearEast 6.94
5 Subsaharian 2.22
6 Neolithic 1.67
7 EastAfrican 1.05
8 SouthEastAsian 0.81
9 NorthAfrican 0.7
10 Oceanic 0.67
11 Ancestor 0.42
12 Australian 0.39
13 Arctic 0.39
14 Amerindian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 5.14
2 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 10.94
3 Pashtun (Afganistan) 11.95
4 Makrani (Pakistan) 12.16
5 Iranian (Kerman) 12.72
6 Iranian (Fars) 13.4
7 Iranian (Iran) 13.43
8 Zoroastrian (Iran) 13.85
9 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 13.88
10 Iran_Lor (Lor) 14.86
11 Pashtun (Pakistan) 15.07
12 Brahui (Baluchistan) 16.36
13 Balochi (Baluchistan) 16.37
14 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 17.12
15 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 17.74
16 Kurd (Syria) 17.8
17 Azeri (Azerbaijan) 18.08
18 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 18.27
19 Jew (Mumbai) 18.47
20 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 18.47

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 47.3% Iranian (Iran) @ 3.21
2 55.3% Makrani (Pakistan) + 44.7% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 3.23
3 52.6% Makrani (Pakistan) + 47.4% Iranian (Fars) @ 3.35
4 62.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 37.3% Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) @ 3.46
5 52.9% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 47.1% Makrani (Pakistan) @ 3.52
6 55.2% Iranian (Iran) + 44.8% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 3.57
7 55.2% Iranian (Iran) + 44.8% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 3.64
8 60.1% Makrani (Pakistan) + 39.9% Kurd (Syria) @ 3.69
9 53.5% Makrani (Pakistan) + 46.5% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 3.71
10 52.5% Iran_Lor (Lor) + 47.5% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 3.72
11 63.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 36.2% Azerbaijani (Azerbaijan) @ 3.73
12 68.5% Makrani (Pakistan) + 31.5% Georgian (Kakheti) @ 3.77
13 52.6% Iran_Lor (Lor) + 47.4% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 3.8
14 73.9% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 26.1% Sindhi (Sindh) @ 3.8
15 60.8% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 39.2% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 3.84
16 66.5% Makrani (Pakistan) + 33.5% Assyrian (Turkey) @ 3.87
17 60.9% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 39.1% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 3.89
18 76.2% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 23.8% Brahmin (Tamil_Nadu) @ 3.89
19 74% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 26% Meena (Rajasthan) @ 3.9
20 79.1% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 20.9% Velama (Andhra_Pradesh) @ 3.91




Bandari 4


Kit RG5774773

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 40.4
2 Indian 32.29
3 Steppe 9.45
4 NearEast 6.14
5 Neolithic 3.16
6 Subsaharian 2.8
7 NorthEastEuropean 1.56
8 SouthEastAsian 0.86
9 NorthAfrican 0.83
10 Oceanic 0.75
11 Australian 0.6
12 Ancestor 0.58
13 EastAfrican 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 3.47
2 Pashtun (Afganistan) 9.94
3 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 11.71
4 Makrani (Pakistan) 11.92
5 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 12.17
6 Iranian (Kerman) 12.38
7 Iranian (Fars) 13.4
8 Iranian (Iran) 13.53
9 Zoroastrian (Iran) 13.58
10 Pashtun (Pakistan) 13.77
11 Iran_Lor (Lor) 14.98
12 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 15.5
13 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 15.88
14 Balochi (Baluchistan) 16.02
15 Brahui (Baluchistan) 16.05
16 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 16.53
17 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 16.58
18 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 16.78
19 Jew (Mumbai) 17.14
20 Shugnan (Badachshan) 17.35

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.6% Iranian (Kerman) + 43.4% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 2.36
2 56.6% Iranian (Kerman) + 43.4% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 2.38
3 51% Makrani (Pakistan) + 49% Iranian (Kerman) @ 2.54
4 63.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 36.3% Azerbaijani (Azerbaijan) @ 2.63
5 53.4% Makrani (Pakistan) + 46.6% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 2.69
6 62.9% Makrani (Pakistan) + 37.1% Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) @ 2.76
7 53.1% Makrani (Pakistan) + 46.9% Iranian (Fars) @ 2.87
8 60.2% Makrani (Pakistan) + 39.8% Azeri (Azerbaijan) @ 2.93
9 56% Makrani (Pakistan) + 44% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 2.97
10 60.2% Makrani (Pakistan) + 39.8% Kurd (Syria) @ 2.99
11 90.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 9.1% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 3.1
12 91% Iranian (Bandari) + 9% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 3.1
13 86.1% Iranian (Bandari) + 13.9% Pashtun (Afganistan) @ 3.12
14 62.3% Makrani (Pakistan) + 37.7% Azerbaijani_Khachmaz (Azerbaijan_Khachmaz) @ 3.12
15 64.5% Makrani (Pakistan) + 35.5% Azerbaijani_Agdzhabedi (Azerbaijan_Agdzhabedi) @ 3.19
16 56.3% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 43.7% Azerbaijani (Azerbaijan) @ 3.2
17 89.6% Iranian (Bandari) + 10.4% Makrani (Pakistan) @ 3.21
18 91.1% Iranian (Bandari) + 8.9% Pashtun (Pakistan) @ 3.22
19 93.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 6.1% Pathan (Punjab) @ 3.23
20 95% Iranian (Bandari) + 5% Gujjar (Punjab) @ 3.24




Bandari 5


Kit TH5701310

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 40.31
2 Indian 29.6
3 Subsaharian 10.4
4 Steppe 8.47
5 NearEast 5.06
6 Neolithic 3.66
7 SouthEastAsian 0.66
8 EastAfrican 0.52
9 Ancestor 0.5
10 NorthEastEuropean 0.49
11 Oceanic 0.32

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 5.97
2 Iranian (Kerman) 13.51
3 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 14.68
4 Pashtun (Afganistan) 15.09
5 Iranian (Iran) 15.56
6 Makrani (Pakistan) 15.65
7 Iranian (Fars) 15.77
8 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 15.9
9 Zoroastrian (Iran) 15.91
10 Iran_Lor (Lor) 16.99
11 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 18
12 Pashtun (Pakistan) 18.53
13 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 18.55
14 Azeri (Azerbaijan) 18.67
15 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 19.13
16 Kurd (Syria) 19.25
17 Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) 19.3
18 Tajik (Tajikistan) 19.41
19 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 19.52
20 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 19.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.8% Esan (Nigeria) @ 3.18
2 95.1% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.9% Yoruba (Nigeria) @ 3.18
3 95% Iranian (Bandari) + 5% Mende (Sierra_Leone) @ 3.26
4 95% Iranian (Bandari) + 5% Gambian (Gambia) @ 3.3
5 95% Iranian (Bandari) + 5% Mandenka (Gambia) @ 3.31
6 94.8% Iranian (Bandari) + 5.2% Bantu (SA_Herero) @ 3.52
7 94.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 5.8% Afroamerican (Denver) @ 3.58
8 92.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 7.1% Siddi (Makran) @ 3.93
9 94.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 5.3% Luhya (Kenya) @ 3.95
10 94.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 5.3% Luo (Kenya) @ 4.02
11 95.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.1% Congo (Pygmy) @ 4.92
12 95.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.8% Kikuyu (Kenya) @ 4.97
13 96.5% Iranian (Bandari) + 3.5% Biaka (Pygmy) @ 5.19
14 95.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.6% Maasai (Ayodo) @ 5.23
15 92.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 7.6% Yemeni (Yemen) @ 5.44
16 97.5% Iranian (Bandari) + 2.5% Moroccan (Morocco) @ 5.87
17 98.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 1.1% Mbuti (Pygmy) @ 5.88
18 96.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 3.1% Abhkasian (Abkhasia) @ 5.91
19 98.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 1.3% Hadza (Tanzania) @ 5.91
20 97.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 2.3% Georgian (Tbilisi) @ 5.92



Bandari 6



Kit ZV4093715

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 43.02
2 Indian 35.16
3 Steppe 6.29
4 NearEast 5.85
5 NorthEastEuropean 1.81
6 Subsaharian 1.77
7 Neolithic 1.53
8 Amerindian 1.13
9 NorthAfrican 1.11
10 Australian 0.64
11 Ancestor 0.57
12 EastAfrican 0.47
13 SouthEastAsian 0.41
14 Oceanic 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 6.35
2 Makrani (Pakistan) 9.8
3 Pashtun (Afganistan) 11.73
4 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 12.77
5 Brahui (Baluchistan) 14.21
6 Balochi (Baluchistan) 14.25
7 Pashtun (Pakistan) 14.46
8 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 14.78
9 Iranian (Kerman) 14.92
10 Iranian (Fars) 15.47
11 Iranian (Iran) 15.57
12 Zoroastrian (Iran) 15.95
13 Iran_Lor (Lor) 17.07
14 Jew (Mumbai) 17.42
15 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 18.4
16 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 19.05
17 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 19.34
18 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 19.4
19 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 19.54
20 Kurd (Syria) 19.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.3% Makrani (Pakistan) + 31.7% Azerbaijani (Baku) @ 2.3
2 75.9% Makrani (Pakistan) + 24.1% Jew (Georgia) @ 2.36
3 69.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 30.3% Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) @ 2.49
4 56.9% Makrani (Pakistan) + 43.1% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) @ 2.51
5 61.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 38.2% Iranian (Fars) @ 2.67
6 64.2% Makrani (Pakistan) + 35.8% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 2.8
7 68.2% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 31.8% Jew (Georgia) @ 2.83
8 59.5% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 40.5% Azerbaijani (Baku) @ 2.88
9 72.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 27.2% Assyrian (Turkey) @ 2.93
10 67.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 32.2% Kurd (Syria) @ 2.97
11 76.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 23.3% Armenian (Armenia) @ 2.97
12 74.1% Makrani (Pakistan) + 25.9% Adjar (Adjaria) @ 2.98
13 68.2% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 31.8% Jew (Georgia) @ 2.98
14 77.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 22.3% Druze (Mount_Carmel) @ 2.98
15 69.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 30.2% Jew (Uzbekistan) @ 3.06
16 72.4% Makrani (Pakistan) + 27.6% Assyrian (Iraq) @ 3.11
17 62.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 37.2% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 3.13
18 75.3% Makrani (Pakistan) + 24.7% Lebanese (Lebanon) @ 3.14
19 59.5% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 40.5% Azerbaijani (Baku) @ 3.14
20 72.9% Makrani (Pakistan) + 27.1% Jew (Azerbaijan) @ 3.16


As you can see, many of them are closer to Mazandarnis(And in many cases other Iranians) than to Balochi groups. However, diversity exists in the region. There is also a good number of Balochis that live in the Bandar Abbas region. The similarities to Afghan Pashtuns is quite intriguing as well.

jesus
11-24-2017, 11:55 PM
Thanks!

GMII = Mazandarani and LOR = Lur? SH = Shirazi or Shi'a? (Study said it named by location/religion).

Pagini et. al has 2 Kerman samples which I should group as separate?



Iran1
GS000013747-ASM
1
1
West_Asia_Armenia
0
male
J2a8
Iranians
Kerman
Iran


Iran2
GS000014475-ASM
1
1
West_Asia_Armenia
0
male
G2a4
Iranians
Kerman
Iran


Iran3
GS000016875-ASM
1
1
West_Asia_Armenia
0
male
R1a2
Iranians
Iran
Iran


Iran4
GS000016179-ASM
1
1
West_Asia_Armenia
0
male
E2a3
Iranians
Iran
Iran




There are also 2 Kuwaiti Iranians:



LP6005442-DNA_C04
iran17
iran17
S_Iranian-1
Iranian
WestEurasia
Iran
migrants_collected_in_Kuwait
Mait Metspalu / Ene Metspalu / Richard Villems / Jri Parik


LP6005443-DNA_B10
iran11
iran11
S_Iranian-2
Iranian
WestEurasia
Iran
migrants_collected_in_Kuwait
Mait Metspalu / Ene Metspalu / Richard Villems / Jri Parik



Yup you're right. SH stands for Shiraz. Kermanis are a bit far geographically from the other Iranian samples so grouping them separately is a good idea. Same applies to the Kuwaiti Iranians. Did you upload them to GEDmatch?

parasar
11-25-2017, 12:11 AM
I think it will be more on the Iran_N-->Hotu cline , leaning towards Hotu.
Because even when I modelled Tajiks and Pashtuns with Hotu, you get pretty damn good fits. While most Zagrosian farmers are found in and around the Zagros, the earliest type is found in NE Iran (Hotu) , S/ SE Iran I think will yield samples more specific to South Asia. Also Hotu has an East Eurasian shift ,which WC lacks.

Yes that is possible. The higher EHG shift and Basal point to it. Basal is "6613% in the likely Mesolithic sample" and it "was shifted towards EHG"
Its date is slightly suspect though.

khanabadoshi
11-25-2017, 12:22 AM
Yup you're right. SH stands for Shiraz. Kermanis are a bit far geographically from the other Iranian samples so grouping them separately is a good idea. Same applies to the Kuwaiti Iranians. Did you upload them to GEDmatch?

Not yet. I had some computer issues. Reinstalling stuff. I will probably upload a bunch of samples tonight. Depends on my mood.

Xehanort
11-25-2017, 12:42 AM
Those Bandaris are all from coastal cities. All are from Bandar Abbas itself.

Makranis are a bit more western shifted than Balochis and Brahuis. All of these Baloch groups look like eastern shifted Iranians anyways.

Bandaris are usually closer to other Iranians and in many cases Afghans before proper Baloch groups. There is definitely a lot of ancient shared ancestry in the region. It could be Marhashi related.

Marhashi (Marhasi / Barashe / Warahshe)


http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/EasternMarhashi.htm

Not sure how legit this map is, but it looks fairly decent when it comes to eastern Iran.

https://s28.postimg.org/idjbe34kd/Ancient_ME_Languages_B.png

Let's go back to Bandaris. The average SSA is 6-7% because 2 of the 8 samples score more than 10% SSA(Around 10% and 18%). While others score 3% and less. The region is diverse, and many will score 0%. Also, you'll find pockets of unmixed Africans but they're a dwindling minority because most ended up mixing with the locals or were already mixed before their arrival to Iran. The are well documented historical alliances/marriages between Shirazi/Sirafi Persian traders/colonizers and local African kingdoms and tribes in south east Africa(Largely in modern day Kenya and Tanzania).

I found these 6 bandari samples on Gedmatch. Humza can pos the kit number of the other lost 2 samples lol.

Bandari 1


Kit DS2185028

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 41.77
2 Indian 35.64
3 Steppe 8.6
4 NearEast 4.83
5 Neolithic 4.19
6 EastAfrican 1.39
7 NorthEastEuropean 1.32
8 Subsaharian 1.11
9 NorthAfrican 0.89
10 Oceanic 0.26

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 6.66
2 Makrani (Pakistan) 9.9
3 Pashtun (Afganistan) 9.94
4 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 12.93
5 Pashtun (Pakistan) 13.29
6 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 13.57
7 Balochi (Baluchistan) 13.68
8 Brahui (Baluchistan) 13.71
9 Iranian (Kerman) 14.75
10 Iranian (Fars) 15.26
11 Zoroastrian (Iran) 15.38
12 Iranian (Iran) 15.46
13 Jew (Mumbai) 16.6
14 Iran_Lor (Lor) 16.82
15 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 17.29
16 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 17.57
17 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 17.9
18 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 18.02
19 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 18.63
20 Pathan (Punjab) 18.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 65.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 34.1% Armenian (Yerevan) @ 1.52
2 65.9% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 34.1% Armenian (Yerevan) @ 1.54
3 64.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Martuni) @ 1.54
4 64.9% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Martuni) @ 1.57
5 64.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Dprabak) @ 1.58
6 65% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 35% Armenian (Dprabak) @ 1.61
7 64.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Chambarak) @ 1.62
8 66.6% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 33.4% Assyrian (Armenia) @ 1.69
9 64.9% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 35.1% Armenian (Chambarak) @ 1.71
10 55.2% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 44.8% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 1.74
11 55.2% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 44.8% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 1.77
12 58.9% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 41.1% Kurd (Syria) @ 1.82
13 58.8% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 41.2% Kurd (Syria) @ 1.82
14 52.9% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 47.1% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 1.9
15 53.1% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 46.9% Iranian (Iran) @ 1.92
16 64.8% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 35.2% Assyrian (Turkey) @ 1.93
17 52.7% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 47.3% Iranian (Fars) @ 1.99
18 53% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 47% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 2
19 52.8% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 47.2% Iranian (Fars) @ 2.02
20 61.2% Makrani (Pakistan) + 38.8% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 2.08



Bandari 2



Kit RA4087483

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 33.91
2 Indian 23.02
3 Subsaharian 13.92
4 Steppe 6.65
5 NearEast 6.35
6 EastAfrican 4.17
7 NorthEastEuropean 4
8 Neolithic 2.77
9 Ancestor 2.32
10 Amerindian 1.73
11 Oceanic 0.69
12 Australian 0.36
13 NorthAfrican 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 13.09
2 Iranian (Kerman) 16.82
3 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 18.84
4 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 19.28
5 Pashtun (Afganistan) 19.38
6 Tajik (Tajikistan) 19.39
7 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 19.42
8 Iranian (Iran) 19.69
9 Zoroastrian (Iran) 19.85
10 Iranian (Fars) 19.9
11 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 20.33
12 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 20.36
13 Turkmens (Turkmenistan) 20.4
14 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 20.55
15 Iran_Lor (Lor) 20.7
16 Shugnan (Badachshan) 20.75
17 Roma (Gypsy) 20.89
18 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 20.93
19 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 21.05
20 Azeri (Azerbaijan) 21.12

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 14.8% Luo (Kenya) @ 4.44
2 85.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 14.6% Luhya (Kenya) @ 4.5
3 82.5% Iranian (Bandari) + 17.5% Kikuyu (Kenya) @ 4.86
4 86.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 13.8% Bantu (SA_Zulu) @ 5.16
5 80.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 19.3% Maasai (Ayodo) @ 5.16
6 85.3% Iranian (Bandari) + 14.7% Afroamerican (Denver) @ 5.17
7 87.1% Iranian (Bandari) + 12.9% Bantu (SA_Herero) @ 5.45
8 88.5% Iranian (Bandari) + 11.5% Mende (Sierra_Leone) @ 6.07
9 88.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 11.6% Gambian (Gambia) @ 6.12
10 81.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 18.3% Siddi (Makran) @ 6.14
11 88.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 11.6% Mandenka (Gambia) @ 6.15
12 89% Iranian (Bandari) + 11% Yoruba (Nigeria) @ 6.3
13 89% Iranian (Bandari) + 11% Esan (Nigeria) @ 6.32
14 72.1% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 27.9% Siddi (Makran) @ 6.42
15 73.4% Zoroastrian (Iran) + 26.6% Siddi (Makran) @ 6.85
16 86.8% Iranian (Bandari) + 13.2% Congo (Pygmy) @ 7.18
17 66.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 33.1% Yemeni (Yemen) @ 7.35
18 78.3% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 21.7% Luo (Kenya) @ 7.39
19 72.7% Iran_Lor (Lor) + 27.3% Siddi (Makran) @ 7.56
20 78.6% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 21.4% Luhya (Kenya) @ 7.


Bandari 3


Kit GZ9303501

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 42.23
2 Indian 32.47
3 Steppe 9.96
4 NearEast 6.94
5 Subsaharian 2.22
6 Neolithic 1.67
7 EastAfrican 1.05
8 SouthEastAsian 0.81
9 NorthAfrican 0.7
10 Oceanic 0.67
11 Ancestor 0.42
12 Australian 0.39
13 Arctic 0.39
14 Amerindian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 5.14
2 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 10.94
3 Pashtun (Afganistan) 11.95
4 Makrani (Pakistan) 12.16
5 Iranian (Kerman) 12.72
6 Iranian (Fars) 13.4
7 Iranian (Iran) 13.43
8 Zoroastrian (Iran) 13.85
9 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 13.88
10 Iran_Lor (Lor) 14.86
11 Pashtun (Pakistan) 15.07
12 Brahui (Baluchistan) 16.36
13 Balochi (Baluchistan) 16.37
14 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 17.12
15 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 17.74
16 Kurd (Syria) 17.8
17 Azeri (Azerbaijan) 18.08
18 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 18.27
19 Jew (Mumbai) 18.47
20 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 18.47

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 47.3% Iranian (Iran) @ 3.21
2 55.3% Makrani (Pakistan) + 44.7% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 3.23
3 52.6% Makrani (Pakistan) + 47.4% Iranian (Fars) @ 3.35
4 62.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 37.3% Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) @ 3.46
5 52.9% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 47.1% Makrani (Pakistan) @ 3.52
6 55.2% Iranian (Iran) + 44.8% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 3.57
7 55.2% Iranian (Iran) + 44.8% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 3.64
8 60.1% Makrani (Pakistan) + 39.9% Kurd (Syria) @ 3.69
9 53.5% Makrani (Pakistan) + 46.5% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 3.71
10 52.5% Iran_Lor (Lor) + 47.5% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 3.72
11 63.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 36.2% Azerbaijani (Azerbaijan) @ 3.73
12 68.5% Makrani (Pakistan) + 31.5% Georgian (Kakheti) @ 3.77
13 52.6% Iran_Lor (Lor) + 47.4% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 3.8
14 73.9% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 26.1% Sindhi (Sindh) @ 3.8
15 60.8% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 39.2% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 3.84
16 66.5% Makrani (Pakistan) + 33.5% Assyrian (Turkey) @ 3.87
17 60.9% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 39.1% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 3.89
18 76.2% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 23.8% Brahmin (Tamil_Nadu) @ 3.89
19 74% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 26% Meena (Rajasthan) @ 3.9
20 79.1% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) + 20.9% Velama (Andhra_Pradesh) @ 3.91




Bandari 4


Kit RG5774773

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 40.4
2 Indian 32.29
3 Steppe 9.45
4 NearEast 6.14
5 Neolithic 3.16
6 Subsaharian 2.8
7 NorthEastEuropean 1.56
8 SouthEastAsian 0.86
9 NorthAfrican 0.83
10 Oceanic 0.75
11 Australian 0.6
12 Ancestor 0.58
13 EastAfrican 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 3.47
2 Pashtun (Afganistan) 9.94
3 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 11.71
4 Makrani (Pakistan) 11.92
5 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 12.17
6 Iranian (Kerman) 12.38
7 Iranian (Fars) 13.4
8 Iranian (Iran) 13.53
9 Zoroastrian (Iran) 13.58
10 Pashtun (Pakistan) 13.77
11 Iran_Lor (Lor) 14.98
12 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 15.5
13 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 15.88
14 Balochi (Baluchistan) 16.02
15 Brahui (Baluchistan) 16.05
16 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 16.53
17 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 16.58
18 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 16.78
19 Jew (Mumbai) 17.14
20 Shugnan (Badachshan) 17.35

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.6% Iranian (Kerman) + 43.4% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 2.36
2 56.6% Iranian (Kerman) + 43.4% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 2.38
3 51% Makrani (Pakistan) + 49% Iranian (Kerman) @ 2.54
4 63.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 36.3% Azerbaijani (Azerbaijan) @ 2.63
5 53.4% Makrani (Pakistan) + 46.6% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 2.69
6 62.9% Makrani (Pakistan) + 37.1% Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) @ 2.76
7 53.1% Makrani (Pakistan) + 46.9% Iranian (Fars) @ 2.87
8 60.2% Makrani (Pakistan) + 39.8% Azeri (Azerbaijan) @ 2.93
9 56% Makrani (Pakistan) + 44% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 2.97
10 60.2% Makrani (Pakistan) + 39.8% Kurd (Syria) @ 2.99
11 90.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 9.1% Balochi (Baluchistan) @ 3.1
12 91% Iranian (Bandari) + 9% Brahui (Baluchistan) @ 3.1
13 86.1% Iranian (Bandari) + 13.9% Pashtun (Afganistan) @ 3.12
14 62.3% Makrani (Pakistan) + 37.7% Azerbaijani_Khachmaz (Azerbaijan_Khachmaz) @ 3.12
15 64.5% Makrani (Pakistan) + 35.5% Azerbaijani_Agdzhabedi (Azerbaijan_Agdzhabedi) @ 3.19
16 56.3% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 43.7% Azerbaijani (Azerbaijan) @ 3.2
17 89.6% Iranian (Bandari) + 10.4% Makrani (Pakistan) @ 3.21
18 91.1% Iranian (Bandari) + 8.9% Pashtun (Pakistan) @ 3.22
19 93.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 6.1% Pathan (Punjab) @ 3.23
20 95% Iranian (Bandari) + 5% Gujjar (Punjab) @ 3.24




Bandari 5


Kit TH5701310

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 40.31
2 Indian 29.6
3 Subsaharian 10.4
4 Steppe 8.47
5 NearEast 5.06
6 Neolithic 3.66
7 SouthEastAsian 0.66
8 EastAfrican 0.52
9 Ancestor 0.5
10 NorthEastEuropean 0.49
11 Oceanic 0.32

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 5.97
2 Iranian (Kerman) 13.51
3 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 14.68
4 Pashtun (Afganistan) 15.09
5 Iranian (Iran) 15.56
6 Makrani (Pakistan) 15.65
7 Iranian (Fars) 15.77
8 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 15.9
9 Zoroastrian (Iran) 15.91
10 Iran_Lor (Lor) 16.99
11 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 18
12 Pashtun (Pakistan) 18.53
13 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 18.55
14 Azeri (Azerbaijan) 18.67
15 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 19.13
16 Kurd (Syria) 19.25
17 Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) 19.3
18 Tajik (Tajikistan) 19.41
19 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 19.52
20 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 19.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.8% Esan (Nigeria) @ 3.18
2 95.1% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.9% Yoruba (Nigeria) @ 3.18
3 95% Iranian (Bandari) + 5% Mende (Sierra_Leone) @ 3.26
4 95% Iranian (Bandari) + 5% Gambian (Gambia) @ 3.3
5 95% Iranian (Bandari) + 5% Mandenka (Gambia) @ 3.31
6 94.8% Iranian (Bandari) + 5.2% Bantu (SA_Herero) @ 3.52
7 94.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 5.8% Afroamerican (Denver) @ 3.58
8 92.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 7.1% Siddi (Makran) @ 3.93
9 94.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 5.3% Luhya (Kenya) @ 3.95
10 94.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 5.3% Luo (Kenya) @ 4.02
11 95.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.1% Congo (Pygmy) @ 4.92
12 95.2% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.8% Kikuyu (Kenya) @ 4.97
13 96.5% Iranian (Bandari) + 3.5% Biaka (Pygmy) @ 5.19
14 95.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 4.6% Maasai (Ayodo) @ 5.23
15 92.4% Iranian (Bandari) + 7.6% Yemeni (Yemen) @ 5.44
16 97.5% Iranian (Bandari) + 2.5% Moroccan (Morocco) @ 5.87
17 98.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 1.1% Mbuti (Pygmy) @ 5.88
18 96.9% Iranian (Bandari) + 3.1% Abhkasian (Abkhasia) @ 5.91
19 98.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 1.3% Hadza (Tanzania) @ 5.91
20 97.7% Iranian (Bandari) + 2.3% Georgian (Tbilisi) @ 5.92



Bandari 6



Kit ZV4093715

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 43.02
2 Indian 35.16
3 Steppe 6.29
4 NearEast 5.85
5 NorthEastEuropean 1.81
6 Subsaharian 1.77
7 Neolithic 1.53
8 Amerindian 1.13
9 NorthAfrican 1.11
10 Australian 0.64
11 Ancestor 0.57
12 EastAfrican 0.47
13 SouthEastAsian 0.41
14 Oceanic 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian (Bandari) 6.35
2 Makrani (Pakistan) 9.8
3 Pashtun (Afganistan) 11.73
4 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 12.77
5 Brahui (Baluchistan) 14.21
6 Balochi (Baluchistan) 14.25
7 Pashtun (Pakistan) 14.46
8 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 14.78
9 Iranian (Kerman) 14.92
10 Iranian (Fars) 15.47
11 Iranian (Iran) 15.57
12 Zoroastrian (Iran) 15.95
13 Iran_Lor (Lor) 17.07
14 Jew (Mumbai) 17.42
15 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan ) 18.4
16 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 19.05
17 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 19.34
18 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 19.4
19 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 19.54
20 Kurd (Syria) 19.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.3% Makrani (Pakistan) + 31.7% Azerbaijani (Baku) @ 2.3
2 75.9% Makrani (Pakistan) + 24.1% Jew (Georgia) @ 2.36
3 69.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 30.3% Azerbaijani_Dagestan (Azerbaijan_Dagestan) @ 2.49
4 56.9% Makrani (Pakistan) + 43.1% Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) @ 2.51
5 61.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 38.2% Iranian (Fars) @ 2.67
6 64.2% Makrani (Pakistan) + 35.8% Iran_Lor (Lor) @ 2.8
7 68.2% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 31.8% Jew (Georgia) @ 2.83
8 59.5% Brahui (Baluchistan) + 40.5% Azerbaijani (Baku) @ 2.88
9 72.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 27.2% Assyrian (Turkey) @ 2.93
10 67.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 32.2% Kurd (Syria) @ 2.97
11 76.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 23.3% Armenian (Armenia) @ 2.97
12 74.1% Makrani (Pakistan) + 25.9% Adjar (Adjaria) @ 2.98
13 68.2% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 31.8% Jew (Georgia) @ 2.98
14 77.7% Makrani (Pakistan) + 22.3% Druze (Mount_Carmel) @ 2.98
15 69.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 30.2% Jew (Uzbekistan) @ 3.06
16 72.4% Makrani (Pakistan) + 27.6% Assyrian (Iraq) @ 3.11
17 62.8% Makrani (Pakistan) + 37.2% Zoroastrian (Iran) @ 3.13
18 75.3% Makrani (Pakistan) + 24.7% Lebanese (Lebanon) @ 3.14
19 59.5% Balochi (Baluchistan) + 40.5% Azerbaijani (Baku) @ 3.14
20 72.9% Makrani (Pakistan) + 27.1% Jew (Azerbaijan) @ 3.16


As you can see, many of them are closer to Mazandarnis(And in many cases other Iranians) than to Balochi groups. However, diversity exists in the region. There is also a good number of Balochis that live in the Bandar Abbas region. The similarities to Afghan Pashtuns is quite intriguing as well.

Thanks, but why Mazandaranis? Are Mazandaranis mixed with South Asians? Also, isn't there a great deal of genetic continuity in Iran from the Chalcolithic to now? Furthermore, I never new that Dravidians had a colony in Afghanistan, very interesting to say the least. Is it safe to say that there is at least 90 to 95% genetic continuity between Iron Age Iran or is it much less now? Thanks, and I guess I was wrong, although I think many Bandaris may be more SSA shifted than others, and also, they seem to be very Indian, compared to Iranians.

parasar
11-25-2017, 01:04 AM
Thanks, but why Mazandaranis? Are Mazandaranis mixed with South Asians? Also, isn't there a great deal of genetic continuity in Iran from the Chalcolithic to now? Furthermore, I never new that Dravidians had a colony in Afghanistan, very interesting to say the least. Is it safe to say that there is at least 90 to 95% genetic continuity between Iron Age Iran or is it much less now? Thanks, and I guess I was wrong, although I think many Bandaris may be more SSA shifted than others, and also, they seem to be very Indian, compared to Iranians.

That's the Indus Valley connection - not known if it was Dravidian.
eg. Shortugai, Mundigak, Altyn Depe, etc.

Kurd
11-25-2017, 02:39 AM
Thanks, but why Mazandaranis? Are Mazandaranis mixed with South Asians? .

Not any more than other northern Iranians or Kurds. They cluster with Lors and Kurds, and in fact share a very high amount of haplotypes with Kurds. I had posted a chromopainter haplotype sharing heat map I believe in the Persian section and by coincidence I had included Mazendaranis. To the east of them in Khorasan there are about 1.5 million Kurds. Some of them may have migrated west to Mazenderan.

Various websites on Khorasani Kurds:

http://www.kurmanj.org/en/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6


Kurds who are considered to be very determined and jingoistic people by nature did the job and pushed the warriors back to where they belong to and consequently the politic of Shah abbas Safavi had worked to perfection by using Kurds in order to preserve the integrity of the country and his ruling at the time. Therefore, Khorasani Kurds have rescued Iran from foreign occupation and continued to do so till today.

Currently about more than 1.5 million Kurds are living in Khorasan (60% in villages, 35% in Cities and 5% as Nomadic migrants people / kober), the most majority of them talks in Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish language.

In Northern Khorasan (with total population of 850.000); the population of Kurds is about 70% of the Province (about 595.000), Turks (who are the remnant of Uzbeks and Kazaks invaders of Iran, 16 Centaury) about 18% of the Province (about 153.000), Fars about 7% of the Province (about 60.000), and Turkmen is about 5% of the Province (about 45.000) who are in Jargalan rural district / border with Turkmenistan. About 600.000 Kurds live in the west and Northwest of the Razavi Khorasan Province.

About 13 to 15% of Mashhad population (Capital of Razavi Province, with the population of about 3.000.000) is Kurds, which in figure becomes about 400.000 as estimates. The total population of Kurds in Khorasan estimates slightly more than 1.5 million.

The main Kurdish inhabited cities in Khorasan are: Quchan, Shirvan, Esfarayen, Bojnurd (Bozenkurd), Kalat, Lain, Daregaz & dorungar, Faroj, Bajgiran, Chenaran, Ashkhane, Mane-u-Similqan, Joveyn, Raz, Radkan, Sabzivar (rural district in northern part), Sarakhs, also there is a large number of Kurds who live in Mashhad.


http://www.zazaki.net/haber/the-kurds-in-khorasan,-north-east-of-iran-1376.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_of_Khorasan


There is a ton of videos on the Kurds of Khorasan on youtube. Here is a nice one in Kurdish:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJC1p3xO2Y

BMG
11-25-2017, 04:08 AM
Not yet. I had some computer issues. Reinstalling stuff. I will probably upload a bunch of samples tonight. Depends on my mood.

Khana can you upload 1000 genomes ITU and STU samples to gedmatch genesis

Xehanort
11-25-2017, 08:15 AM
Thanks for the help, Pajee! Appreciate it! I did not know, lol. I thought that Mazandaranis might be a bit South Asian shifted. Thanks for clarifying that for me. Also, are Khorassani Kurds as pure as Kurds from western Iran, Iraq, and Turkey? Or are they mixed now?

Xehanort
11-25-2017, 08:15 AM
Khana can you upload 1000 genomes ITU and STU samples to gedmatch genesis

Are Malayalis genetically Dravidian?

BMG
11-25-2017, 08:25 AM
Are Malayalis genetically Dravidian?

Dravidian is a language family and malayalis speak a dravidian language .Genetically dravidian doesn't mean anything

Kurd
11-25-2017, 12:31 PM
Thanks for the help, Pajee! Appreciate it! I did not know, lol. I thought that Mazandaranis might be a bit South Asian shifted. Thanks for clarifying that for me. Also, are Khorassani Kurds as pure as Kurds from western Iran, Iraq, and Turkey? Or are they mixed now?

They are largely endogomous and to date speak Kurmanji Kurdi (I get the jist of what they are talking about for the most part) and thus I would expect them to cluster with other Kurds, although my analysis of Kurds with IBS and formal stats (not Gedmatch calculators) shows quite a bit of variation within them, just like other ethnic groups (again not with Gedmatch). Will there be a geographical effect? Perhaps, just as is the case with Kurds in Turkey, vs Iraq vs Iran, but I cant say untill a large number of them get genotyped.

khanabadoshi
11-25-2017, 05:12 PM
They are largely endogomous and to date speak Kurmanji Kurdi (I get the jist of what they are talking about for the most part) and thus I would expect them to cluster with other Kurds, although my analysis of Kurds with IBS and formal stats (not Gedmatch calculators) shows quite a bit of variation within them, just like other ethnic groups (again not with Gedmatch). Will there be a geographical effect? Perhaps, just as is the case with Kurds in Turkey, vs Iraq vs Iran, but I can’t say untill a large number of them get genotyped.

Maybe MfA has access to some samples? He seems to have curated quite a large list of Kurdish people. Most seem to be from Turkey/Iraq though.

Kurd
11-25-2017, 05:31 PM
Maybe MfA has access to some samples? He seems to have curated quite a large list of Kurdish people. Most seem to be from Turkey/Iraq though.

That would be nice, but I somehow doubt anyone has any. A large number would be needed to get accurate averages. I tried getting some from the medical department of the University in Mashad, and also from the University at Zahidan ( for the Kurds in Iranian Balochistan) to no avail.