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jdean
08-28-2013, 04:50 PM
I placed my brothers HT in a cluster of Guys that I researched back in Nov 2011. They are mostly English.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNYmpYMkVLQ3VuTm8/edit?usp=sharing

These match your Z18 website cluster of:
08. Z18+ Z14+ Z372- "Cumberland" Cluster (25-11-22-11)
108758
46452
56417
90390

G45316<<<<< my brother's Haplotype from 23andme matches this Cluster but has not tested yet.

D393,D390,D19,D391,D385a,D385b,D426,D388,D439,D389 i,D392,D389b,D459a,D459b,D455,D454,D447,D437,D448, D449,D464a,D464b,D464c,YCA-a,YCA-b,D456,D442,D438,D531,D557,D446

13,25,14,11,11,11,12,12,12,13,13,17, 9,10,11,11,24,15,19,30,15,16,17,19,22,15,12,11,12, 16,13

Here are some addition suggested Z18>Z14's

109582
124936
45367
96037
57369

So I do have a vested interest in U106 TMRCA and origin and whether they are Celtic or not AND in Z18 whether they are in your project or the entire U106 realm.

MJost

Thanks for your thoughts Mark

Kits 109582, 45367, 96037, 108758, 56417, 90390 are all clear candidates for the Cumberland cluster and were contacted in Dec 2011, half of them responded and are in the project.

46452 looked to be a good candidate for the cluster as well but tested Z18-

I'll have to look at the other two again, I have both in a spreadsheet I did in 2009 whist researching the East Anglia cluster so presumably would have also looked at them when we were hunting for candidates for the other Z18 clusters but for whatever reason decided against contacting them.

MJost
08-28-2013, 05:06 PM
My U106 siblings have seven GD from 56417 William F. Thomas, b. 1841, VA, at a YBP of 1691 to a MRCA with a simple TMRCA using 3.5 GD with my sibling of 427 ybp.

The Fluxus uses Rho GD's and these 9 HTs down to kit 45367 have a Rho GD of 3.3. So my step Dad's line appears to have stayed in NW Germany and some when to England with the MRCA node at around 389 +- 436 AD and stayed as a possible start of the Anglo-Saxon settlement period of Britain. Just for FYI, 45367 has a MDKA John Elmes b c 1533 Northamptonshire, England.


So the Home boys that stayed and/or those who went to England and came back to the Continental fold leaving Z14 as a variance higher in England maybe as a founder effect. Along with the next subclade Z372 has a higher variance in Netherlands. So the Continental's that stay home flurish as Z372 to create a higher variance. Larger number of children, but who knows for sure. The entire north coastal area of the Continent was mainly Anglo-Saxon's which maximized their invasion with the departure of Roman troops in 410 AD. This Z18 group, I would think were Germantic in nature as a Tribal based society with the bulk of the population either peasants.


MJost

jdean
08-28-2013, 05:14 PM
Best bet is wait and see how DF95 pans out then either order that or Z14, I wouldn't worry too much about Z372 unless you really want to nail that terminal SNP.

MJost
08-28-2013, 05:23 PM
Thanks for your thoughts Mark

Kits 109582, 45367, 96037, 108758, 56417, 90390 are all clear candidates for the Cumberland cluster and were contacted in Dec 2011, half of them responded and are in the project.

46452 looked to be a good candidate for the cluster as well but tested Z18-

I'll have to look at the other two again, I have both in a spreadsheet I did in 2009 whist researching the East Anglia cluster so presumably would have also looked at them when we were hunting for candidates for the other Z18 clusters but for whatever reason decided against contacting them.

90390 then has a converged HT shown on my tree since he has a negative SNP result. 45367 and 57369 should consider Z18 testing to define the bottom of this tree SNP branch. My tree only had ten HTs in it including my brother's HT.

MJost

jdean
08-28-2013, 06:05 PM
I'm sorry but you're loosing me here '90390 then has a converged HT shown on my tree since he has a negative SNP result' ? 90390 is Z18+

The current terminal SNP for the cluster is well understood, it's Z14, but we're exploring DF95 which we think this cluster has the best chance of being positive for but will of course test against all the clusters plus a Z372+ individual and be suggesting it to all Z14+ unclustered folk.


BTW I think we are probably going to stretch Mike's patience with this if we aren't careful, if you would like to continue this conversation perhaps you could email me.

TigerMW
08-28-2013, 06:20 PM
I'm sorry but you're loosing me here '90390 then has a converged HT shown on my tree since he has a negative SNP result' ? 90390 is Z18+

The current terminal SNP for the cluster is well understood, it's Z14, but we're exploring DF95 which we think this cluster has the best chance of being positive for but will of course test against all the clusters plus a Z372+ individual and be suggesting it to all Z14+ unclustered folk.


BTW I think we are probably going to stretch Mike's patience with this if we aren't careful, if you would like to continue this conversation perhaps you could email me.

There is a Z18 category on this forum where this tangent probably belongs. There is no need to delete anything but I'll move over these posts that are getting deeper into the Z18 woods. If I move over one that really has important content for this thread please repost that part of it here.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?117-R1b-Z18

TigerMW
08-28-2013, 06:24 PM
I'm moving a couple of posts over here that get into testing Z14 versus Z372 as it relates to various clusters.

Mark, this excerpt from one of your posts looks possibly be related to understand U106's origin and participation in Germanic tribes. If so, please repost the relevant part over on the P312/U106 Celtic/Germanic thread. Thanks.


... So the Home boys that stayed and/or those who went to England and came back to the Continental fold leaving Z14 as a variance higher in England maybe as a founder effect. Along with the next subclade Z372 has a higher variance in Netherlands. So the Continental's that stay home flurish as Z372 to create a higher variance. Larger number of children, but who knows for sure. The entire north coastal area of the Continent was mainly Anglo-Saxon's which maximized their invasion with the departure of Roman troops in 410 AD. This Z18 group, I would think were Germantic in nature as a Tribal based society with the bulk of the population either peasants.

MJost
08-28-2013, 06:46 PM
I'm sorry but you're loosing me here '90390 then has a converged HT shown on my tree since he has a negative SNP result' ? 90390 is Z18+

The current terminal SNP for the cluster is well understood, it's Z14, but we're exploring DF95 which we think this cluster has the best chance of being positive for but will of course test against all the clusters plus a Z372+ individual and be suggesting it to all Z14+ unclustered folk.


BTW I think we are probably going to stretch Mike's patience with this if we aren't careful, if you would like to continue this conversation perhaps you could email me.

Nix kit 90390 who was negative for Z18, I meant 46452 is a convergence into Z14 cluster. And the entire group that I am speaking of is the Z14 subclade.


Yes Mike made his move. All the stuff I used to build up my entire 15 minute case to show that z18 is major branch was and is mainly Germanic and was not a Celtic based society but of a similar tribal organizational confined in northern Europe.

MJost

jdean
08-28-2013, 07:12 PM
Nix kit 90390 who was negative for Z18, I meant 46452 is a convergence into Z14 cluster. And the entire group that I am speaking of is the Z14 subclade.


Yes Mike made his move. All the stuff I used to build up my entire 15 minute case to show that z18 is major branch was and is mainly Germanic and was not a Celtic based society but of a similar tribal organizational confined in northern Europe.

MJost

46352 was a bit of a surprise, I even asked Thomas to double check it but it does happen, there's a good example in the Z2961 category in the DF49 project.

Yep Peter and I have been saying that about Z18 from the beginning, as I said even the East Anglia cluster has German and Scandinavian matches and as I said that's the only one that could have an Isles origin.

The Cumberland Cluster is very big and spread out, including two Polish members who have a GD of 9 from each other at 37 loci, of course this cluster has got the advantage of being identifiable at 37 loci, most need 67.

MJost
08-29-2013, 01:45 AM
Mike is reloading his U106 so maybe that will help parse out Z18 further. A phylogram with the new datasetswould be very helpful for each subclade to see the clusters work out.

MJost

Huntergatherer1066
01-11-2015, 02:23 AM
My maternal uncle has been confirmed Z18, his direct paternal line is of very recent origin in the United States from Devon. He's up to 111 markers and in the relevant FTDNA projects; I'm curious how he'll shape up further down the tree once I'm able to do more SNP testing on him. One of his close matches is Z14+ but that's about it as far as high level matches doing useful SNP testing.

jdean
01-11-2015, 11:06 AM
My maternal uncle has been confirmed Z18, his direct paternal line is of very recent origin in the United States from Devon. He's up to 111 markers and in the relevant FTDNA projects; I'm curious how he'll shape up further down the tree once I'm able to do more SNP testing on him. One of his close matches is Z14+ but that's about it as far as high level matches doing useful SNP testing.

What's your uncles kit no. ?

Z14 has now been shown to be equivalent to Z18, the earlier Z18+, Z14- results turned out to be false reads unfortunately.

For the best understanding of development for Z18 x L257 check out Peter M's work

http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=121

Huntergatherer1066
01-11-2015, 07:51 PM
What's your uncles kit no. ?

Z14 has now been shown to be equivalent to Z18, the earlier Z18+, Z14- results turned out to be false reads unfortunately.

For the best understanding of development for Z18 x L257 check out Peter M's work

http://l257.groenebeverbv.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=121

Yeah that's why I didn't bother testing Z14. I'm guessing he'll be DF95 since one of his close matches is negative for Z372 and DF95 seems to be the other common branch. FTDNA should be adding DF95 to their haplotree soon so that should help with getting more people tested for it. My uncle is 323104.

jdean
01-11-2015, 08:13 PM
Yeah that's why I didn't bother testing Z14. I'm guessing he'll be DF95 since one of his close matches is negative for Z372 and DF95 seems to be the other common branch. FTDNA should be adding DF95 to their haplotree soon so that should help with getting more people tested for it. My uncle is 323104.

DF95 is predictable from STR results, there is also another relatively large group that we nicknamed the 'East Anglia cluster because a lot of he earlier members identified seemed to come from roughly that neck of the woods. This is also reasonably predictable from STR results.

Huntergatherer1066
01-12-2015, 11:36 PM
DF95 is predictable from STR results, there is also another relatively large group that we nicknamed the 'East Anglia cluster because a lot of he earlier members identified seemed to come from roughly that neck of the woods. This is also reasonably predictable from STR results.

I'll have to study the charts on Peter M's site, I see he does have my uncle incorporated into the STR results page now.

Huntergatherer1066
03-13-2015, 09:32 PM
Ordered BigY earlier this week for my uncle, should yield some interesting results since none of his close matches have done BigY or much SNP testing period. A 33/37 match with no common ancestor in a genealogical timegrame (shared ancestry from Devon though) did Geno 2 and was negative for Z372 and L257 and a 60/67 match individually tested negative for those two as well.

Cofgene
03-13-2015, 11:23 PM
Ordered BigY earlier this week for my uncle, should yield some interesting results since none of his close matches have done BigY or much SNP testing period. A 33/37 match with no common ancestor in a genealogical timegrame (shared ancestry from Devon though) did Geno 2 and was negative for Z372 and L257 and a 60/67 match individually tested negative for those two as well.

We look forward to running the comparison in the U106 project once his results are posted.

Jester7
04-01-2015, 02:11 PM
Hello
I am new to the site and this thread. I have been confirmed as DF95 Haplotype and grouped in Cumberland B cluster. As a newbie, I am looking for some clarification of what this implies? Germanic/Viking roots have been suggested. Can anyone put this into lay person terms and suggest other SNP's for testing?

Huntergatherer1066
04-20-2015, 11:58 PM
My uncle's results came in today, I had a quick look at which Z18 subclade he falls in and he is in the S11601 subclade.

Huntergatherer1066
04-21-2015, 01:14 AM
It looks like he is the second person in the U106 project to be S11601 and be 10 rather than 11 at DYS511. He is positive for the S11601 equivalent SNPs as well as S19726 downstream so that is interesting, I guess it is illustrative of how predicting SNPs from STRs is not perfect. The other 511=11- person is not close enough of a Y-DNA match on FTDNA to show up at any level, I haven't checked what the full genetic distance is. They are also S19726+ though.

Ar Wasgar
04-29-2015, 02:54 AM
Not sure if I posted twice. Sorry. But I am Z14, 10 at DYS511, and positive for S11601 as well as S19726. I'm waiting for Big Y, but tested positive on these with Chromo 2 (and Y-DNA111).

Huntergatherer1066
04-29-2015, 03:09 AM
Not sure if I posted twice. Sorry. But I am Z14, 10 at DYS511, and positive for S11601 as well as S19726. I'm waiting for Big Y, but tested positive on these with Chromo 2 (and Y-DNA111).

I wonder if you are one of my uncle's matches. He would be the Richards Z18 match you would see. If you don't want to post that info here feel free to PM me. You'll certainly be BigY matches with him, I'm curious to see if you share any singletons with him so that we can start building beneath S19726.

Ar Wasgar
04-29-2015, 04:24 AM
I tried sending you a PM, but I just joined so am not allowed the feature yet.
I have other S SNP via Chromo 2, but am waiting for my Big Y.
What info could I give you. I am new to this.

Ar Wasgar
04-29-2015, 04:44 AM
I think your uncle is the closest match I have found on Y-Search. I know my Y-line back at least to 1700s, since I grew up in the place of origin. I am going home in a few months to dig further back since I need to be in situ. However, I grew up in a place where I know that 62/64 of my 4 X ggps were born. I have clues on my Y-line further back to 1200 - 1400s. The surname was different to what it became (for cultural reasons).

Ar Wasgar
04-29-2015, 05:29 AM
Maybe you can contact me via the U106 project.

Ar Wasgar
04-29-2015, 07:23 PM
Hi,

I just spoke to P. van de Velde Boot, and he said he would do an analysis of your uncle's and my results. I have a bunch of new SNPs from Chromo 2. What studies did your uncle do?

Cheers. JT

Peter M
04-29-2015, 09:35 PM
The S11601+ group is a subgroup of Z18. The R-Z18 Project call this group East Anglia Cluster as the first members of this group were found there. The group has a four marker motif, one of the markers in this motif is DYS511=11, but obviously people could have DYS511=10 as well (most likely, this is a back mutation; but there are other possibilities). The group as such is relatively common; we have (far) more than 150 profiles in our M269 database which fit in this cluster. Like most tight clusters, the East Anglia cluster has a cascade round the defining SNP. Therefore there are a few equivalents to S11601. And It's therefore needed to bring together all results of test that cover more SNPs in this cascade, so that we can see which SNPs are part of the cascade and which SNPs might define sub-groups of S11601. These tests include Chromo-2, Big-Y and FGC's Elite test. If all people in S11601 join the FT-DNA R-Z18 Project and make their results of the tests I mentioned available to me, I will run these results through our analysis software and report on the results. The best outcome would be for us to find one or more SNPs that cut this significant group in a few smaller sub-groups. Given the age of S11601, there most certainly must be a number of subgroups.

If there's any interest I can create a geographic map of all East Anglia Cluster members in our database (both tested and candidates) and put that map on the R-Z18 web site (for historic reasons called www.L257.org).

If there are any questions about R-Z18, S11601 or any of the tests I mention, I'm the administrator of the R-Z18 Project and I might be able to help.

IMPORTANT: my tip to Huntergatherer1066 and Ar Wasgar: the best thing to do at this moment would be to search the internet and find other people who did the Chromo-2 test and were found to be S11601+. Make sure these people send their raw Chromo-2 results to me and I will have a look. The chances are reasonably good, this way we'll find one or more SNPs that split up the big S11601 group. To date, we know 16 S-SNPs in S11601, but in the results I've seen so far, people are either all positive or all negative for each of those SNPs, i.e. these 16 SNPs appear to be equivalent. There's one SNP that's positive in one, but that's a singleton, albeit a named singleton (and therefore seen before). Having more Chromo-2 results available, we get a chance of discovering a meaningful SNP.

Huntergatherer1066
04-30-2015, 10:58 PM
I think your uncle is the closest match I have found on Y-Search. I know my Y-line back at least to 1700s, since I grew up in the place of origin. I am going home in a few months to dig further back since I need to be in situ. However, I grew up in a place where I know that 62/64 of my 4 X ggps were born. I have clues on my Y-line further back to 1200 - 1400s. The surname was different to what it became (for cultural reasons).

I will PM you, you should be able to initiate PMs yourself once you hit 5 or 10 posts. My uncle has YDNA111 and BigY.

Ar Wasgar
04-30-2015, 11:49 PM
Huntergatherer, the forum will not let me reply to PMs until I post 10 items. Silly rule, especially as I cannot reply to your PM either.

Ar Wasgar
04-30-2015, 11:54 PM
Peter - Chromo 2 must also have a phylogenetic tree based on their results and of course since they have named these SNPs.

Ar Wasgar
04-30-2015, 11:56 PM
Do you think it is something Britain's DNA keep close to the vest?

Huntergatherer1066
05-01-2015, 12:55 AM
Huntergatherer, the forum will not let me reply to PMs until I post 10 items. Silly rule, especially as I cannot reply to your PM either.

Well you're almost there I guess.

Scarlet Ibis
05-01-2015, 03:52 AM
Huntergatherer, the forum will not let me reply to PMs until I post 10 items. Silly rule, especially as I cannot reply to your PM either.

Welcome to Anthrogenica. The 10 post minimum wasn't meant to add to difficulty; it was rather implemented to flush out certain people who were signing up at the forum to do nothing but use the PM system to harass certain people off the record. In the meantime, visitor messaging on your profiles are always available.

Ar Wasgar
05-01-2015, 04:03 AM
Thanks. Didn't mean to be rude. And that makes 10.

Cofgene
05-01-2015, 11:27 AM
Note that while Peter does a good job of administering the Z18 project that region falls within the R-U106 haplogroup. We request that anything you submit to Peter be submitted to the U106 project administrators for inclusion and analysis within the U106 region data set.

Wing Genealogist
05-01-2015, 10:57 PM
The U106 Project maintains a Tree online at: https://app.box.com/s/afqsrrnvv2d51msqcz2o This tree has been updated earlier today and should have all of the SNPs included in the recent FTDNA Z18 panel. The tree also tries to correlate the private ZP SNPs with other SNPs (such as the FGC and A series SNPs).

EDIT: Please feel free to send any additions or corrections to me. Email wing_genealogist (AT) yahoo (DOT) com

can't_lurk_no_mo'
05-09-2015, 03:53 PM
Is there an snp label we can use to confirm or rule at R-Z18 at 23andme.com?

can't_lurk_no_mo'
06-10-2015, 02:54 AM
There'a a lot of ungrouped testees who tested positive for Z18 and/or its subclades at the the FTDNA Z18 website. Has the project been abandoned?

Peter M
06-10-2015, 09:40 AM
There'a a lot of ungrouped testees who tested positive for Z18 and/or its subclades at the the FTDNA Z18 website. Has the project been abandoned?
Are you out of your mind ??

You apparently are not very up to date on the R-Z18 Project. We have our own web site and that site IS up to date. The problem with the FT-DNA page is there are too many restrictions to use it in practice (I'm a professional software developer and small details DO matter). On our own web site we can do anything we like and show the information using 2015 technology. Therefore, we don't worry too much about "Ungroup"-eds on the FT-DNA page.

Everybody in the project regularly gets email explaning things and thus watches the web site.

The web site shows the R-Z18 branch of the Y-Tree; the diagram is generated from our SNP-database. Any further questions about Z18 ??

xlockx
09-27-2015, 06:00 PM
Hi new here, I am also Z18. And as for Peter M, of all the projects I belong to he has been the most helpful and has responded to my questions. :)

Topcat
10-03-2015, 12:25 PM
I'm also new. Z18>FGC5798. Looking forward to finding out who are my new family!