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ancestryfan1994
11-25-2017, 05:50 PM
Im hoping anybody who's well versed in the history of the Caucasus peoples like the Avars of Dagestan and Ossetians can help shed more light on this supposed link between these groups and Iranians. Supposedly according to some historians, Avars originate from the historical region known as Khorasan which encompasses a wide geography, but for the most part is associated with Iran. The same pattern somewhat emerges with the Ossetians too. The region of Dagestan was part of the Persian empire up until a couple hundred years ago, so there are some links, but is there any substance to these claims of Iranian origins of these groups from a historical, and even genetic perspective?

RCO
11-25-2017, 11:36 PM
We have this old but useful article

Ann Hum Genet. 2004 Nov;68(Pt 6):588-99.
Genetic evidence concerning the origins of South and North Ossetians.
Nasidze I, Quinque D, Dupanloup I, Rychkov S, Naumova O, Zhukova O, Stoneking M.


Ossetians are a unique group in the Caucasus, in that they are the only ethnic group found on both the north and south slopes of the Caucasus, and moreover they speak an Indo-European language in contrast to their Caucasian-speaking neighbours. We analyzed mtDNA HV1 sequences, Y chromosome binary genetic markers, and Y chromosome short tandem repeat (Y-STR) variability in three North Ossetian groups and compared these data to published data for two additional North Ossetian groups and for South Ossetians. The mtDNA data suggest a common origin for North and South Ossetians, whereas the Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other. Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. We suggest that a common origin of Ossetians from Iran, followed by subsequent male-mediated migrations from their Caucasian neighbours, is the most likely explanation for these results. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrations as the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217

ancestryfan1994
11-26-2017, 12:15 AM
We have this old but useful article

Ann Hum Genet. 2004 Nov;68(Pt 6):588-99.
Genetic evidence concerning the origins of South and North Ossetians.
Nasidze I, Quinque D, Dupanloup I, Rychkov S, Naumova O, Zhukova O, Stoneking M.



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217

I remember seeing a couple other studies on Ossetians which repeated the same conclusion. Is there anything similar on the Avar?

AbdoNumen
11-26-2017, 04:05 AM
As far as I know, the Avars are indigenous to the Caucasus, mainly to the highlands of Dagestan. They seem to be confused with the nomadic Pannonian Avars, who were likely of Turkic-Asiatic origin. The Avars speak a language that belongs to the Northeast Caucasian family, unlike the Kumyk people of lowland Dagestan, for example, who speak a Turkic language.

Genetically, the Avars cluster with other Dagestani populations such as Laks and Lezgins, separately from Iranians and Central Asians (see Karafet et al 2016). From the perspective of Y-DNA, Avars predominantly belong to haplogroup J1-M267 (~80%), and looking at the two J1 Avar members in the Dagestan DNA project at FTDNA, they both fall within J-BY100 with TMRCA of 5,100 ybp, and is mostly shared with other Caucasian people like Chechens, Circassians, and Georgians (with the exception of one German). The haplogroup Q that one avar belongs to, Q-YP1226, is likely a Near Eastern clade, also found among a Jordanian, an Iraqi and a Turk.

I've done some research, and it appears that the source for a Persian origin of the Avars is Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, an Azerbaijani writer from the 19th century who supposedly bases his statement on local historical annals and says that 'the inhabitants of vicinities of Agran have been moved here from Khurasan', and the editor of the book saying that the district of Agran corresponds to the Caucasian Avaria. I'll have to research this further.

ancestryfan1994
12-12-2017, 12:03 AM
As far as I know, the Avars are indigenous to the Caucasus, mainly to the highlands of Dagestan. They seem to be confused with the nomadic Pannonian Avars, who were likely of Turkic-Asiatic origin. The Avars speak a language that belongs to the Northeast Caucasian family, unlike the Kumyk people of lowland Dagestan, for example, who speak a Turkic language.

Genetically, the Avars cluster with other Dagestani populations such as Laks and Lezgins, separately from Iranians and Central Asians (see Karafet et al 2016). From the perspective of Y-DNA, Avars predominantly belong to haplogroup J1-M267 (~80%), and looking at the two J1 Avar members in the Dagestan DNA project at FTDNA, they both fall within J-BY100 with TMRCA of 5,100 ybp, and is mostly shared with other Caucasian people like Chechens, Circassians, and Georgians (with the exception of one German). The haplogroup Q that one avar belongs to, Q-YP1226, is likely a Near Eastern clade, also found among a Jordanian, an Iraqi and a Turk.

I've done some research, and it appears that the source for a Persian origin of the Avars is Abbasgulu Bakikhanov, an Azerbaijani writer from the 19th century who supposedly bases his statement on local historical annals and says that 'the inhabitants of vicinities of Agran have been moved here from Khurasan', and the editor of the book saying that the district of Agran corresponds to the Caucasian Avaria. I'll have to research this further.

Did you manage to look more into this supposed link to Iran for Avars? I'm intrigued to see some more sources for this.

Tag Heuer
01-08-2018, 12:05 AM
Avars do not originate from Khorasan, they are indigenous people of Caucasus, and got their name from Turkic rulers. They call the themselves "maarulal", which means "highlanders". There are some people of Persian origin among them, but they moved to Caucasus recently as traders.

asm
03-17-2019, 08:03 PM
I could start new thread about my question but I think it's also ok to write here.As we know overwhelming majority of Avars belong to J1 which indicates their paternal Middle Eastern origin.I know there are should be differences between N.Caucasian and Semitic J1 clades.It is still interesting for me,why Avars and Lezgins autosomally get very low ME and Mediterranean components on K36?Do North/West Caucasian of K36 include these J1/J2 of Nakh-Dagestanians?Bur for recent origin...