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View Full Version : R-BY3508, L135 and BY3506 Update Thread



DillonResearcher
11-26-2017, 11:23 AM
I'm posting fairly regularly on the L2 board with different threads often relating to by terminal SNP BY3506 or it's parent clades L135 and BY3508 so to stop clogging up the board with endless threads I'll use this as an update thread.

Having noticed recently that the NEVGEN haplogroup predictor can predict the BY1145 SNP (which is in the same "block" as L135) I had a look at the STR results in the U152 project for those who are L2+ by Z49- and Z367-.

Fortunately the very first tester (SW France) in this group was predicted with 100% probability to be BY1145+, I then went through all the otehr testers and had one American tester who was estimated to be BY1445+ with 72% probability. Most interestingly of all though was a tester from Azerbaijan who was predicted to be BY1145 with 99.63% probability.

I'll try and get in touch with these testers to confirm the predictions with a SNP test and it will be very interesting to hear about the tester from Azerbaijan in particular.

I have had YSEQ put together my own custom SNP pack for BY3508 so this could be a good opportunity to test this perhaps.

It's a shame that you can't put batches of results through NEVGEN since I had had to do each one manually and so although there are probably other predicted BY1145+ results in the project it's an awful lot of work.

Litz
11-26-2017, 01:53 PM
Nice work Dillon!

Hopefully you can get a few of them to test just for BY3506. I noticed this week that on big tree, the estimate for it is now around 160BC (was around 500BC before).

DillonResearcher
11-26-2017, 02:13 PM
Nice work Dillon!

Hopefully you can get a few of them to test just for BY3506. I noticed this week that on big tree, the estimate for it is now around 160BC (was around 500BC before).

I would be cautious with that age estimate on the Big Tree, I think that it still describes the aging as a work in progress and it is a long way off YFull or Dr McDonald's estimates. Great if it is correct though as that means less of a gap between our DNA tree and paper trail tree!

DillonResearcher
11-26-2017, 02:19 PM
Just to add onto my last post Litz there are more samples on the Big Tree than any of the other aging estimates were able to use which may account for the difference but to be honest I'd have thought that more samples are likely to increase the TMRCA estimate.

Litz
11-29-2017, 04:28 AM
I see a Farrar (England) in the FTDNA U152 group now. Is that a new BY3506 one, or was he there before?

Also, two of the kits from before are not there anymore. Quadling (England) and Michel/Michels (Luxembourg). They were both confirmed BY3506 before. Are they now in another grouping, or did both just happen to change their privacy settings at same time?

DillonResearcher
11-29-2017, 07:24 PM
I saw that yesterday as well, there are actually two Ferrars there who both trace their ancestry back to the same person although the other Ferrar tester has not filled out the MDKA bit for the U152 project so I found this info on the Ferrar surname project.

With regards to the Quadling and Michel testers disappearing they are still there but they seem to have their privacy settings set so that only project members can see their results so if you are not logged into your FTDNA account when you open up the U152 results page you won't see them.

DillonResearcher
12-02-2017, 02:39 PM
20168
Here is the current distribution of the R-L135 haplogroup, this is produced with data from The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project and the FTDNA U152 project.

At present there seems to be quite a concentration around the Netherlands/north-east France/west Germany area, although this may be due to a testing bias in the databases used. It is worth mentioning that although there are more people who have tested L135+ these testers have been excluded since they either have not stated their MDKA location or this location was too vague, e.g. just a country stated.

Litz
12-03-2017, 01:34 AM
So far, its not that different from the L2 distribution in general, except L2 has more showing up around the Switzerland and Germany border area.

DillonResearcher
12-03-2017, 01:18 PM
So far, its not that different from the L2 distribution in general, except L2 has more showing up around the Switzerland and Germany border area.

Yes, I would agree broadly speaking although it is very hard with such a relatively small number of samples to draw conclusions.

DillonResearcher
01-27-2018, 12:55 PM
Interestingly the L135 et al. block seems to have been split further with the re-analysis by FTDNA on a pre-Hg38 Big Y. This seems to have resulted in the new SNP R-BY31149 being discovered so perhaps we are going to see some benefit from the Hg37 to 38 swap.

DillonResearcher
01-27-2018, 01:59 PM
Regarding the new branch discovered which I discussed in the above post I have made an updated tree for BY3508

(All information on the tree is publicly available on FTDNA results pages)

21046

DillonResearcher
01-27-2018, 04:11 PM
I took the longitude and latitudes for all R-L135 people that I know MDKA location information for and initially this produced a mid-point in Luxembourg.

However, interestingly when I removed the British samples and an outlier in the far North of Norway this gave me a mid-point in the Black Forest which seems very plausible as a location where R-L135 may have first appeared.

21051

I would be very interested to hear peoples thoughts on how useful such analysis might be? Unfortunately I only had 15 samples (each a unique surname) once I took two Irish, two English and one northern Norwegian family out of the map.

DillonResearcher
01-28-2018, 05:44 PM
*Correction*

To correct the updated tree which I posted yesterday the placement of the newly discovered SNP was incorrect, see the following amended tree.

21069

Also, since many of the BY3506 testers have not taken the Big Y I have used STR analysis to also produce a hypothesis tree which is a prediction of SNPs and SNP groupings which future Big Y tests may reveal. The predictions are colour coded in red. I would not place a huge amount of confidence in this tree, in particular the Hardouin tester was a little puzzling but it will to be interesting to compare it to the results we will have over the next few years.

21070

Litz
01-28-2018, 06:39 PM
As of now, is Bormans the closest to us (Lützinger) at 111 markers? I remember I compared with the other BY3506 people several months ago but don't know if I looked at Bormans.

DillonResearcher
01-28-2018, 06:45 PM
As of now, is Bormans the closest to us (Lützinger) at 111 markers? I remember I compared with the other BY3506 people several months ago but don't know if I looked at Bormans.

The tester has their surname stated on the results map but not on the results page which might be the source of confusion.

The analysis was using the tool at: http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

The tool allows you to cut and paste directly from the U152 project results and then the website does the STR analysis for you.

DillonResearcher
01-28-2018, 06:47 PM
Without a Lutzinger Big Y test I don't think we could prove if my prediction is correct or not and as I mentioned in my earlier post I would be cautious when looking at the hypothesis tree since the STRs could mutuate both forwards and back to where they started off over the large time period.

Litz
01-28-2018, 07:06 PM
How many of the nine BY3506 people have done the BigY already?

DillonResearcher
01-28-2018, 07:13 PM
4 Big Y tests, so just under half.

Litz
01-29-2018, 05:17 PM
Just using the 111 STR markers and manually counting a difference at any location as one, even if mutated by more than one, I got about 20 differences between us and Borlands (The Netherlands), 24 for us and you/Dillon (Ireland), 24 for us and Michaels (Luxembourg), and 26 for us and Mende (Poland). 15 differences just at 37 markers for Weber (Luxembourg) and White (USA).

Which is the closest for you? Weber and Quadling?

I don't think it is a link to our Liutzen/Lucinc/Lützen/Lützingen origins, but interestingly, the original name of Luxembourg was actually Lützelburg.

DillonResearcher
01-29-2018, 11:56 PM
Just using the 111 STR markers and manually counting a difference at any location as one, even if mutated by more than one, I got about 20 differences between us and Borlands (The Netherlands), 24 for us and you/Dillon (Ireland), 24 for us and Michaels (Luxembourg), and 26 for us and Mende (Poland). 15 differences just at 37 markers for Weber (Luxembourg) and White (USA).

Which is the closest for you? Weber and Quadling?

I don't think it is a link to our Liutzen/Lucinc/Lützen/Lützingen origins, but interestingly, the original name of Luxembourg was actually Lützelburg.

I am actually closest to the Lutzingers (but very distantly) followed by Michels and then White (Brackstone).

Curiously the Farrar and Hardouin testers seem very close. Also, although the Harden project is quite large only the BY3506 genetic family contains those with the spelling Hardouin (as opposed to Harden/Hardin etc) and Hardouin seems to have been a fairly prominent name in France.

DillonResearcher
01-31-2018, 12:14 AM
Which is the closest for you? Weber and Quadling?



Curiously, I had another look at this tonight and when I added in the Azerbaijan tester which NEVGEN predicts to be BY3508+ he was my closest match and I was his closest match, still distant for both of us but closer than the others.

Litz
04-15-2018, 08:41 PM
I see we have a new BY3506 person: Schaal b.1505 Germany. Map marker is Reutlingen, Germany

amschaal
04-25-2018, 08:12 PM
Greetings. That would be me. I have a fairly well researched paternal tree back to about 1505 Germany. The family moved around the towns of Reutlingen; Geradstetten, Schlat, and Alb-Donau-Kreis area. Eventually moving to Brietenfurst before emigrating to the U.S. about 1850.

Am I correct in understanding that the BY3506 designation is essentially the most disaggregated result to date?
Is there anything I can do to assist with further analysis/refinement of this designation?

Best Regards

Litz
04-27-2018, 07:11 PM
Nice to meet you Amschaal. Have you done the Big Y test? I haven't yet, but probably will in the near future. Once more of the BY3506 people have taken it, it will break us up into more subgroups, filling in the gap between the 300BC where we currently all sit at and start to bring us up to the 111 STR markers (~1600BC).

My Lützingers were around the Koblenz area of Germany back to the 1000s. Will be interesting to eventually find out when our common ancestor was.

Litz
04-27-2018, 08:20 PM
It looks like 20 Y-111 differences between us, Lützinger (Germany), and Borlands (The Netherlands) is still the closest, and then 24 between us and you, Schaal (Germany), 24 for us and Dillon (Ireland), 24 for us and Michaels (Luxembourg), and 26 for us and Mende (Poland)

DillonResearcher
04-28-2018, 11:50 AM
Hello amschall,

It's great to have another BY3506 person here on the forum. I would really recommend the Big Y test as Litz has already done, I have taken it and would say that it represents great value for money as even after you have your own results these can keep being enhanced without further cost as others test and more recent SNPs are discovered.

The Big Y is the only way to discover new SNPs and I believe that it is still on sale until the end of Saturday and so if you can I would really recommend it.

amschaal
04-28-2018, 09:50 PM
Thanks for the advice. Done!

I look forward to collaborating with you in the future.

amschaal
08-18-2018, 02:50 PM
Thanks for the advice. Done!

I look forward to collaborating with you in the future.

It took a while, but the results are in.

DillonResearcher
08-18-2018, 03:04 PM
Brilliant! The next step is to send the raw BAM file to http://www.haplogroup-r.org/instructions.html This will get much more analysis and help with dating BY3506 and producing trees like this: https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1126&star=false

amschaal
09-24-2018, 11:05 PM
I am still trying to get through the process of getting everything uploaded.

Dillon, would it be possible for you to make the request? I can't post yet (not enough posts). I updated the Y-DNA wharehouse.

THanks!

Litz
09-24-2018, 11:30 PM
Schaal, it looks like you are listed in the Big Tree now. Click through the link in Dillon's post above.

amschaal
09-25-2018, 02:35 AM
Thanks, not fully analyzed but making progress

Litz
11-27-2018, 04:53 PM
I see we still don't have a date estimate for the new subgroup (shared by Schaal and Wetzstein) yet on the Big Tree. So how many subgroups underneath R-BY3506 do we think there will eventually be? ...4 or 5?

Litz
10-18-2019, 05:39 PM
I saw in the FTDNA project that we got four more R-BY3508 people since the summer Big Y 700 sales. Two Willberger/Wildbergers (Switzerland), a Mangini (Italy), and no name given (Scotland). I guess all four were negative for BY3506. I'm going to finally pull the trigger and order a Big Y 700 once the year end sale starts the third week in Nov.. Maybe we'll start to break up that BY3506 block some more.

billpg
01-08-2020, 11:41 AM
I also thank Dillon and will return in a couple weeks (after Y700) gets us further than U152 and I know where I belong. I am trying to differentiate Irish-Scot distribution and yes Eupedia shows a rather odd U152 frequency with co. Kerry and Down peaking.

Carrutn
11-02-2020, 07:54 PM
Hello, new person here. I recently took BigY and it has come back with R-L135. I have no matches. Should I expect to match other L135, and if not, I suppose there is even less chance of matching anyone who is not L135?
I'd be grateful if someone could take a look at my kit and advise next steps. (kit 711682)