View Full Version : The R-BY3604 thread

12-03-2017, 04:01 PM
This thread is mainly to give guidance to testers, who have tested BY3604+ at FTDNA, Yseq or any other testing company.

BY3604 is located here on the haplotree: R-P312 > U152 > L2 > Z367 > Z34 > Z33 (or Z35) > BY3604

The current "Big tree" for all Z33 testers can be seen here: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1616

Under BY3604, there are currently two kits from the "1K Genomes" (1.000 Genomes) study and all that we know is that they are "CEU = Utah residents with Northern and Western European ancestry".
These are kits NA11994 and NA07347. Together with the "Patterson" sample, they form the Z275 subgroup and then the CTS7352 subgroup.
The Patterson sample can trace his ancestry back to a brick wall in America, 1765.

Then there is the "Scandinavian cluster" with currently 3 samples - Nilsson (203953), Nielsen (329117) and Göransson (475016).
All three of us have roots in Southernmost Sweden and Easternmost Denmark. The Nilsson sample has his paternal line documented and DNA-proven by a lucky Y37 sample back to a man born in Blekinge, Sweden about 1580!
This "Scandinavian cluster" is isolated by 2.500 years from the other BY3604 samples and is represented by 23 unique SNPs. Below these 23 SNPs there are two recent haplogroups: R-A14636 (at least 400 years old) and R-A14635 (about 700 years old).
We would be very pleased to have more BigYs that would break those 23 SNPs up into new haplogroups, so we strongly hope that new BY3604+ testers will go for BigY.

The same kits are seen on Yfull here: https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z35/

If you have tested BY3604+ and have a kit at FTDNA, please join the "U152 and subclades (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/background)" project at FTDNA.
If you have already done BigY (or any other WGS test) please join the free Big Tree (http://www.ytree.net/Instructions.html) and if possible also Yfull (https://yfull.com/) (49$ fee).

For more information about BY3604 and its upper clades, please see these good links:

The very good Eupedia article on R-M343 (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml)
The FTDNA U152 project map of the most distant paternal ancestor of all L2+ testers (https://www.google.dk/maps/@50.8362118,3.1857119,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1s1lQrsuJ401Pfc9G1Fg0bQjPV1Y Kg)
The FTDNA U152 project map of the most distant paternal ancestor of all L2 > Z367+ testers (https://www.google.dk/maps/@50.5911703,3.5806741,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1s1Mh_tNzR0y0cSs8vk-K0AL-W-JUc)
The FTDNA U152 project map of the most distant paternal ancestor of all L2 > Z367 > Z34+ testers (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1E0yK-ViqExz6-HfwfxLUU8Ph7Co&ll=52.1878586590167%2C3.29399714000499&z=4)

This thread will be updated as new information on BY3604 is gathered.
Please join this thread if you have tested BY3604+ and tell us about your results and your paternal line!

St. Pierre
12-05-2017, 05:30 PM
I can trace my direct paternal line to Pierre de Saint Pierre who was born in 1643 in Rouen, Normandy, France and immigrated to Quebec, Canada in 1664. His father and mother were Michel de Saint Pierre and Francoise Engren, his grandparents were Guillaume/Gilles de Saint Pierre and Marie Philippes/Queval and his great grandparents were Colin de Saint Pierre and Jehanne of Gouy, Normandy and Rouen in the mid to late 1500's. The family has been documented as a noble family in Normandy since atleast the 1200's and are also the original surname of the Bunbury family of Cheshire, England, the story is that a younger son of the noble de Saint Pierre family went to England with Hugh Lupus(William the Conqueror's cousin) and his family started being called Bunbury after that. Also the de Saint Pierre family was supposed to have had their castles in the area of St. Lo, Normandy.

12-06-2017, 11:26 AM
And we now from another thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11657-Z367-positive) that St. Pierre is BY3604+ after running through an SNP-panel at Yseq ;)

It could be really interesting to trace a living descendant in another direct male line directly from Pierre de Saint Pierre as well as maybe even a Bunbury descendant in direct male line and then test them for BY3604 at Yseq (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=38003) for 22 USD (kit included).
If they happen to be BY3604+ you have a 99% certainity that this male line is correct - both historically and biologically.
If not, the line is either wrong or an NPE happened along the way (the risks increases with so many generations at play).

Why 99% certainty? Because BY3604 is 3.000 years old and by extreme (un)luck, a person could be BY3604+ without neccesary being a direct line descendant from Pierre de Saint Pierre or the Bunbury in question...
For 100% certainty, you would need at BigY on yourself and either a BigY on the other descendant or multiple SNP tests on him to identify the newest SNP of the St. Pierre / Bunbury lines (it is called "triangulation").
But honestly - a BY3604 test for 22 USD would get you nearly to the same conclusion for a much more reasonable budget...

St. Pierre
12-06-2017, 11:13 PM
Hi Anders, can I join and put my results on FTDNA after only being tested at YSEQ for haplogroup by SNP's and not STR's?

Adam R. St. Pierre

12-07-2017, 04:58 AM
Hi Adam!

Unfortunately not!
Yseq is cheap partly because they don't have the big and free online matching structure that FTDNA has.
So FTDNA is not going to give "free rides" to Yseq customers - and I do understand them.

My best advice for beginners who are sure they are ready do go "all in" on Y-DNA is FTDNA Y37 + BigY.

And for less interested testers who have started off with Y37 at FTDNA and just want to know more about their haplogroup, I advice them to take the cheaper and deeper panels at Yseq.
If they then want to "import" their Yseq result back to FTDNA they can always order a single SNP test for their final Yseq haplogroup at FTDNA (currently 39$ at FTDNA), but that does not really add much to thier FTDNA results.

There is a 3rd way, which is to take the expensive WGS test at Yseq, which basically includes BigY, mtDNA and nearly a complete "Y500".
The problem is that Yseq does not have any good matching interface, so you are pretty much on your own from there...

Kind regards

04-23-2018, 04:11 PM
Im PH137 - downstream from BY3604. My family came to the US via Ireland and were Quakers. I have a close DNA relation in the FTDNA Hadley surname project who is from Utah (Mormon) but we cannot determine our genealogical connection from England. Does anyone know of a way to connect the dots so to speak?
We also have a 2 brothers who are likely Hadley's via an NPE in the surname project who are also PH137.

04-25-2018, 08:15 PM
Hi Hadley!

Welcome to this thread and the BY3604 group!
I can see you at Ytree (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1616) and I assume that you are kit YF13370 at Yfull (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY3604/)? (Thanks for joining!)

You are in the "British Isles" Z275 group of BY3604, and I am trying to find out how we in the "Scandinavian cluster" are related to you.
I believe that Adam St. Pierre might give some clues ;-)

Best regards

04-26-2018, 03:04 AM
Yes, I agree. I’d be interested in comparing the 3 of us using GEDMatch. My account is: A647997 or if either of you want specific information my contact information is ross dot hadley at g mail dot com.

05-16-2018, 06:17 PM
Hi Ross!

Sorry for this late answer, but I somehow missed your reply.
I did a comparison at Gedmatch between your kit and my fathers kit and there is absolutely no match - not even at 3 cM threshold.

But that does not surprise me - autosomal DNA matches are at their very best 12 generations back.
According to Yfull (https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY3604/), the common ancestor between your Z275 group and "the Scandinavian cluster" (both under BY3604) is some 3.000 years old.

Y-DNA works on much longer timespans than autosomal DNA - both a blessing and a source of frustration :)

Best regards

02-19-2019, 08:51 AM
Hi all BY3604 testers!

My new homepage with the latest developments and news on BY3604 is up and running!


Questions are of course also answered here, but the page above is a good start, if you want to know more about BY3604!

/ Anders

05-30-2019, 09:08 AM
Officially a member of the BY3604 club, via YSEQ!

11-20-2020, 10:01 PM
Erwangery let me know that inside the Matthews project on FTDNA a Spaniard from the XVIIIth Century is labelled BY3604-Z275:
N50869 MATIZ, Alberto matiz y Prado ca 1670 Islas canarias -1720 Spain
Anders, are you informed of that?

08-06-2021, 01:52 PM
Hello again Anglesqueville,

We're still working on our Hadley YDNA surname project at FTDNA and now that the BY3604 tree has been built out a bit more over the last two years, I thought it would be good reach out to you again. The Z275 branch of the tree remains relatively undertested, with only about 5-6 men besides those in my Hadley project having done any testing there. I was hoping now that testing prices have come down and there is a sale going on right now, that you might consider the Big Y test at $399 USD. We could do some more piecemeal SNP testing to see if you fit into an existing subbranch of Z275, but I think it would just end up being costly without results if you do in fact represent a new branch. I am also going to reach out to the owner of kit N50869 you mention above. I have seen his name before, but he strangely has such a wide STR difference at the Y12 level, that we've likely overlooked him in the past.

Regardless of which path you would like to take regarding testing, it would be great if we could resume our correspondence here and get others who are interested in their Norman ancestry involved as well.

Ross Hadley

08-06-2021, 03:58 PM
A while back, I actually did test for Z275 at YSEQ but it turns out I am negative. So I do not share the same subclade as anglesqueville, despite the similar location of our paternal ancestry.

08-06-2021, 08:48 PM
A while back, I actually did test for Z275 at YSEQ but it turns out I am negative. So I do not share the same subclade as anglesqueville, despite the similar location of our paternal ancestry.

Hey Alchemist223,

We've been tracking the results for the more distant matches under Z34 as well. I maintain a comparison sheet for many of the kits in our region of the YDNA haplotree. As we continue to see a lack of matches in the UK, we're trying to find ways to expand testing of these branches among families who can tie their lineages to Normandy and surrounding areas. At this point, we're hoping to just increase the sample of participants, but any Z275+ testers would be among my Hadley lineage's closest matches out there.


08-11-2021, 04:50 AM
Around half of the testers under BY3604 are PH137. PH137 is ideal for YSNP prediction and charting with SAPP. As sample sizes under BY3604 continue to grow, other parts will become predictable and chartable as well. Below are three files of my analysis of PH137. The first file is the EXCEL spreadsheet that is the source file for all information. It includes formulas for the PH134 signature match, the PH134 genetic distance from the signature and even a binary logistic regression model which currently has 100 % accuracy. All these formulas can be copy and pasted to new rows if new testers are added (the row numbers update automatically and no other changes are required):


This file is produced using the charting tool SAPP. Since the number of testers is pretty small, it will not reveal too much information but will improve as the sample size increases. The original input file to SAPP is found under the SAPP worksheet:


Below is a four page executive summary of the analysis:


I have analyzed over 50 haplogroups under haplogroup R in the last year. YSNP prediction allows you quickly verify the PH137 status very quickly and eliminates bad data being introduced into any analysis. Feel free to ask questions. I took around four hours to pull the data (75 % of the time) and create the files above. I made a YouTube explaining this process for haplogroup analysis:


09-24-2021, 09:11 PM
R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 > Z34/S368 > Z33/S212 > ZZ71 > S9635 > 20207296-G-C > R-BY34134