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View Full Version : Dutch Ancestry Finder (CoA) results



Don Felipe
08-31-2013, 02:36 PM
Thought this could be an interesting experiment, trying to spot some patterns. Of course there's plenty of caveats when drawing any conclusions from this very small sample.

Firstly AF/CoA results are based on a limited database made up of mostly US based 23andme customers. It's very likely to be skewed towards some overrepresented nationalities, other nationalities might simply not be present in the database or hardly so. Also strictly speaking AF just mentions the nationality of the grandparents of the people with whom you share a DNA segment but it doesn't show the nationality/ethnic background of your alleged shared ancestor which could be either your own nationality, or of the person you're sharing with or just something completely different.

Then there's genuine IBD (Identical By Descent) v.s. random IBS (Identical By State) matches. In the pictures below i just post a top 6 of AF results but typically all the Dutch or even all Europeans i'm sharing with will have about 20-30 countries in their list (when set at 5cM and 4 grandparents), from almost every corner of Europe and usually also a handful of countries outside of Europe, some might make sense because of former historical/colonial ties or known migrations but others are just totally random. They usually disappear though when applying higher settings (>7cM). Which makes me suspect most of them are actually IBS. It might also corroborate the findings of a recent study which found that most Europeans even when in countries from opposite ends of the continent will usually have some shared ancestors when you go back 1000 years. If true i suppose it would make most of the smaller matches quite meaningless when tracing your recent ancestry unless they appear with above average frequency.

Study Suggests Europeans Are Closely Related (http://scitechdaily.com/study-suggests-europeans-are-closely-related/)


Anyways here goes, for each person I'm posting firstly AF results when set at 5cM and 4 grandparents and then when set at 10cM and 4 grandparents.


Some patterns i'm seeing



As is to be expected each person's top 6 is made up chiefly of Northwest European countries and of course the Netherlands itself
The UK, Germany and atl. 1 Scandinavian country is appearing in everyone's list, the UK sometimes even at (shared) first position, they are probably the most overrepresented nationality/ethnicity though besides Americans and Askenazi.
Surprisingly Belgium is only appearing 3 times and only once in someone's top 3. Linguistically speaking the Flemish are of course the closest neighbours of the Dutch. But a recent paper (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/03/population-structure-in-netherlands.html) found some genetic differentiation between Northern and Southern Netherlands which would also extend to Belgium/Flanders. This might provide a partial explanation for the relatively low frequency of Belgian matches. However it's also known that many Flemish and to a lesser extent also Walloon protestants migrated to the Netherlands during the Spanish occupation of Belgium in the 16th/17th century. So there should be some shared ancestry dating from that era especially in the big cities of Holland which received most of these migrants. Perhaps it's also simply to do with Belgians being underrepresented in the AF/CoA database.
Matches with Poland and other Central European countries can often be explained by distant Ashkenazi ancestry but not in all cases.
Matches with Russia can also often be explained by Dutch/German Mennonites hailing from Russia, even though going by nationality they are correct to mention Russia, of course genetically/ethnically they would still be mostly NW European. Endogamy being widely practiced among Mennonite communities even nowadays.
Spain is appearing more often (4x) than France (1x), no idea how to explain this. I tend to believe that Spanish ancestry dating from the (brief and mostly indirect) rule by the Spanish in the 16th/17th century is mostly an urban myth, but perhaps it's more than just hype :biggrin1: In fact there's way more historical proof of French migrations to the Netherlands (protestant Huguenots especially) and French armies were stationed in greater numbers and more recently during the Napoleonic occupation (1795-1815). Perhaps again it just means that the French are relatively underrepresented in AF/CoA's database.



5cM & 4 grandparents


Person 1

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/15cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 2

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/35cM4GP.jpg~original



Person 3

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/45cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 4


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/55cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 5


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/65cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 6

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/75cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 7

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/85cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 8

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/95cM4GP.jpg~original



Person 9

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/105cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 10


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/115cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 11

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/135cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 12

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/145cM4GP.jpg~original

Don Felipe
08-31-2013, 02:49 PM
In same order but this time set at 10cM and 4 grandparent




Matches >10cM are usually just Dutch with 1 other country, only England and Germany appearing regularly and sometimes even with the biggest matches.
Not a single big match with Belgians
These results seem to reflect someone's recent family tree much better as well as any possible recent foreign lineages in it. When set at lower settings of 5 cM you probably get many generalized ancient shared DNA matches with countries you don't have any recent family ties with.




Person 1


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/110cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 2


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/310cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 3

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/410cM4GP.jpg~original

Person 4

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/510cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 5

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/610cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 6


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/710cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 7, from southern province of Limburg, the Bolivian match is most likely because of a shared Spanish ancestor, at lower settings other Latin American countries as well as Spain appear.

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/810cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 8, has some distant Ashkenazi ancestry

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/910cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 9

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/1010cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 10, doesn't have any South European or Iberian in AC

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/1110cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 11

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/1310cM4GP.jpg~original


Person 12, Frisian judging from his family names, interestingly not a single big (>10cM) Dutch match for him

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/1410cM4GP.jpg~original

Scarlet Ibis
09-01-2013, 01:49 AM
As usual, excellent posts, Oditous.

evon
09-01-2013, 11:12 AM
Norwegians and Dutch have any common connections, this is largely due to immigration going both ways, especially to Netherlands from Norway. As only USA received more Norwegian settlement then the Netherlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegians#The_Netherlands

The Netherlands

During the 17th and 18th centuries, many Norwegians emigrated to the Netherlands, particularly Amsterdam. This emigration is regarded as the second of the waves of emigration from Norway (the first being the trek to England, Atlantic islands, Normandy, etc. during the Viking age, and the third was to North America, not counting the Gothic emigrations to Continental Europe in the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD). Loosely estimated, some 10% of the population may have emigrated, in a period when the entire Norwegian population consisted of some 800,000 people.

The Norwegians left with the Dutch trade ships that when in Norway traded for timber, hides, herring and stockfish (dried codfish). Young women took employment as maids in Amsterdam. Young men took employment as sailors. Large parts of the Dutch merchant fleet and navy came to consist of Norwegians and Danes. They took Dutch names, so no trace of Norwegian names can be found in the Dutch population of today. One well-known illustration is that of Admiral Kruys. He was hired in Amsterdam by Peter I to develop the Russian navy, but was originally from Stavanger, Norway (Kruys means "cross", and the Russian maritime flag is today also a blue cross on white background).

The emigration to the Netherlands was so devastating to the homelands that the Danish-Norwegian king issued penalties of death for emigration, but repeatedly had to issue amnesties for those willing to return, announced by posters in the streets of Amsterdam. Increasingly, Dutchmen who search their genealogical roots turn to Norway. Many Norwegians who emigrated to the Netherlands, and often were employed in the Dutch merchant fleet, emigrated further to the many Dutch colonies such as New Amsterdam (New York).

and the other way:

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2F195.159.218.27%2Fnyenordmenn%2Fnett ustillinger%2FNF_ML%2F4%2Fholland%2Findex.htm

Dutch Era

Clogged trade and migration between the Netherlands and Norway can be traced back to the 1500s. The Dutch bought lumber in Norway and sold such salt, herring, cheese, corn, wine, spirits and textiles. Some Dutch merchants and craftsmen settled fast, especially in Bergen and Trondheim. The Dutch were never any major immigrant group, but they had considerable influence. The so-called "Dutchman Time" peaks to 1640 - to the 1670s. When were trade and migration most comprehensive. In those years did the largest immigration flow from Norway to the Netherlands.

Our scores at 5cM and4gp:

Me:
Netherlands 0.6%

Paternal aunt:
Netherlands 0.6%

Maternal Uncle:
Netherlands 0.1%

Maternal grandmother:
Netherlands 0.6%

Don Felipe
09-03-2013, 08:17 PM
Norwegians and Dutch have any common connections, this is largely due to immigration going both ways, especially to Netherlands from Norway. As only USA received more Norwegian settlement then the Netherlands.

That's very fascinating, it's not widely known here in the Netherlands how about in Norway? For those who study the socalled Golden Age of Amsterdam (17th/18th centuries) Norway is bound to pop up though as a very important trading partner . Apparently there used to be an expression that said


‘Amsterdam is standing on Norway’ – a popular saying in the Dutch Republic of
the seventeenth century – is a curious expression, but one that ably captures the
essential point. Amsterdam, the crown jewel of seventeenth century capitalism, was
built atop a veritable underwater forest of Norwegian origin (Sögner 2004, 47).1 To
set foot on an Amsterdam wharf was, in a quite tangible way, to stand on Norway

Taking into account as well the sizable influx of Norwegian labourers and the work they performed adds an additional twist to that expression i suppose.

It's also well reflected in the AF results i think. I'm guessing most of those Norwegian matches would be because of shared ancestry dating back to this period of known migration. However i'm wondering might some matches also be explained by earlier and more ancient shared ancestry?

evon
09-04-2013, 09:29 PM
That's very fascinating, it's not widely known here in the Netherlands how about in Norway? For those who study the socalled Golden Age of Amsterdam (17th/18th centuries) Norway is bound to pop up though as a very important trading partner . Apparently there used to be an expression that said

Taking into account as well the sizable influx of Norwegian labourers and the work they performed adds an additional twist to that expression i suppose.

It's also well reflected in the AF results i think. I'm guessing most of those Norwegian matches would be because of shared ancestry dating back to this period of known migration. However i'm wondering might some matches also be explained by earlier and more ancient shared ancestry?

Most Norwegians whom live on the western coast know about the various migrations, but the most known are by far the German ones, which started earlier then the Dutch...Eastern and Northern Norwegians i dont know about, but my guess is eastern Norwegians will be more ignorant about it since its less a part of their history..

I dont think AF results go much further back then 1000 years, it seems to be around the max, maybe going as far as around 1500, but i doubt it goes much further then that...You might see links from the late Roman era, as many Norwegians served in the roman legions, and we know the Romans had many forts near Holland in those days, but since its so far back, my guess its better to stick with ideas based on known merchant patterns and such..

http://www.aftenposten.no/fakta/innsikt/article1546823.ece#.UiemXONKdk8

translated:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Ffakta%2Finnsik t%2Farticle1546823.ece%23.UiemXONKdk8&act=url

ADW_1981
09-05-2013, 12:57 PM
We're distantly Dutch on my father's side - about 1600-1700's or so. I've even found a connection to Dutch Indonesia which traces back either to Norway or Netherlands. We're also *real* French, Huguenots, but thanks to the Catholics, most of those lineages have likely been extinguished. (I had to throw that jab in there!)

Father's top 5 countries

UK - 2.6%
Netherlands - 0.8%
Germany - 0.6%
Italy - 0.4%
Finland - 0.3%

Mother's top 5

UK - 2.8%
Ireland - 1.8%
Germany - 0.9%
Norway - 0.8%
Netherlands- 0.6%

Don Felipe
09-06-2013, 08:24 PM
I dont think AF results go much further back then 1000 years, it seems to be around the max, maybe going as far as around 1500, but i doubt it goes much further then that...

I'm not that convinced by 23andme's claims that it only captures ancestry dating back from the last 500 years or so. For example the Italian category in AC is clearly not confined to descendants from modernday Italians but rather seems to date back much earlier. Some have even speculated it represents some ancient neolithic med/levantine cluster.

Another interesting finding i've seen is a fully Malagassy guy i'm sharing with. In his AF results there's a (4gp) Philipino guy who's sharing a DNA segment of 5.4 cM. Now it seems highly unlikely that they would be related through some modern age (1500-2000) type of migration, given that both countries hardly have had any direct connections. So speculatingly if indeed it's an IBD segment, it might date from at least before 1000, as usually it's assumed that the Austronesian settlers of Madagascar arrived up till the 8th century. However the guy isn't even Indonesian so it might date back from an even earlier epoch.

Don Felipe
09-06-2013, 08:52 PM
You might see links from the late Roman era, as many Norwegians served in the roman legions, and we know the Romans had many forts near Holland in those days, but since its so far back, my guess its better to stick with ideas based on known merchant patterns and such..

The ancient or deep ancestry connections i'm mostly interested in have to do with pre-Viking seaborne migrations of Scandinavians and especially Danes along the North Sea coast, intermingling with Frisians. I suspect they might have occurred quite frequently for the Netherlands because of its particular geography consisting mostly of marshy/riverine wetlands fit mostly for fishing/seafaring peoples as well as live stock breeding. Not too sure though how much of this might be captured by the small segments seen in AF. Maps showing former spread of Frisian language as well as the socalled North Sea Germanic or Ingvaeonic languages (in red) around AD 1.

http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/images/frisian-map.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png

evon
09-07-2013, 10:06 AM
I'm not that convinced by 23andme's claims that it only captures ancestry dating back from the last 500 years or so. For example the Italian category in AC is clearly not confined to descendants from modernday Italians but rather seems to date back much earlier. Some have even speculated it represents some ancient neolithic med/levantine cluster.

Another interesting finding i've seen is a fully Malagassy guy i'm sharing with. In his AF results there's a (4gp) Philipino guy who's sharing a DNA segment of 5.4 cM. Now it seems highly unlikely that they would be related through some modern age (1500-2000) type of migration, given that both countries hardly have had any direct connections. So speculatingly if indeed it's an IBD segment, it might date from at least before 1000, as usually it's assumed that the Austronesian settlers of Madagascar arrived up till the 8th century. However the guy isn't even Indonesian so it might date back from an even earlier epoch.

You should look at proxies in these cases, so if you found a match in say Philippines, it is likely that this person have some European ancestry, but it need not be Dutch, it could also be related via another linage, but i dont think the segments are much older then 1500 years, as otherwise we would have far more matches in southern regions.. if you want to check out IBD matches for Dutch people, look here (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/eurogenes).


The ancient or deep ancestry connections i'm mostly interested in have to do with pre-Viking seaborne migrations of Scandinavians and especially Danes along the North Sea coast, intermingling with Frisians. I suspect they might have occurred quite frequently for the Netherlands because of its particular geography consisting mostly of marshy/riverine wetlands fit mostly for fishing/seafaring peoples as well as live stock breeding. Not too sure though how much of this might be captured by the small segments seen in AF. Maps showing former spread of Frisian language as well as the socalled North Sea Germanic or Ingvaeonic languages (in red) around AD 1.

http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/images/frisian-map.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png

I am not a fan of the idea of connecting DNA and language, as there are just not any good evidence for such a correlation with regards to North European languages...

Don Felipe
09-07-2013, 10:38 AM
You should look at proxies in these cases, so if you found a match in say Philippines, it is likely that this person have some European ancestry, but it need not be Dutch, it could also be related via another linage.

The Philippino match was not with me but with someone from Madagascar. A European proxy seems unlikely as it's only 0.2% in his AC set at speculative. Otherwise he scores 67.6% East Asian & Native American, 28.0% Sub-Saharan African and 1.4% South Asian.I don't know about the Phillipino guy. But it seems most logical to assume the DNA segment they're sharing is East-Asian. I wish 23andme would provide extra information on regional resultion for the DNA segments you're sharing with matches in RF & AF. That way you could be more sure on how exactly you might be related with someone.





I am not a fan of the idea of connecting DNA and language, as there are just not any good evidence for such a correlation with regards to North European languages...

Perhaps not a perfect correlation because of language replacement but it is a solid indication of the direction of new people flows to some degree at least. Especially since the coastal areas of the Dutch lowlands seems to have been depopulated a couple of times because of rising waterlevels. Creating opportunities for newcomers i suppose.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/North.Sea.Periphery.250.500.jpg/494px-North.Sea.Periphery.250.500.jpg