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Principe
12-04-2017, 02:13 PM
This is meant to look at the overall findings of J2 in ancient dna, since not many samples were found and hopefully some upcoming papers will find more samples. If I miss any please inform.

I will split it for J2a and J2b

The oldest J2a sample so far is from Mesolithic Iran along with the oldest J2b also being found in Early Neolithic Western Iran both being basal clades suggesting a birth from around there, this is exactly during the time of the Zarzian Culture, it is very likely that J1 and J2 were both present and expanded initially from this culture. There was extensive contacts between the Zarzian Culture and the Caucasus, possibly the Levant as well.

J2a

J2a-Z6049>SK1321 appears in Mesolithic Caucasus at Kotias Kide, being anywhere from 700-1000 years younger than the Mesolithic Iranian J2a.

J2a-Z6049>Z6048 was found in Neolithic Farmers from the site of Barcin in Anatolia.

J2a-Z6055 was found in Neolithic Farmers in Hungary, his autosomal was 95% Neolithic Farmer.

J2a2-PF5008 was in Copper Age West Iran, is associated with Iran Chalcolithic.

J2a-M319 was found in 2 Minoans

J2a-L26 Basal was found in a Mycenaean from Troezon

J2a-Z7671>Z30685 was found in the late Bronze Age Kyjatice Culture in Hungary (BR2), the line itself was probably entered Europe in the Early Bronze Age.

J2a2-PF5008>PF4993 was found in Sary-Bel Kurgan (Russian Altai) during the Iron Age, most likely a Scythian, and this line was very likely picked up from Iran.

J2a2-PF5008>PF4993 was also found again in Kytmanovo Altai in the early Medieval Age.

There is also 2 J2a-M67's and a J2b? found in Merovingian samples unfortunately no further analysis was done.

There is also 2 Neolithic Hungarian and 2 Neolithic Austrian farmers that belong to J2a but no further analysis has been done, they will likely belong either to J2a-Z6055 or J2a-Z6048 based on the 2 Neolithic Farmers that belonged to these clades.

There is also a Khazar J2a that has not been further tested that dates to the early medieval era.

Seeing how very little J2a has been found in ancient samples and the diversity of subclades being even smaller makes the upcoming findings even more interesting, at the moment it looks like J2a-PF5008 and J2a-M319 spread with Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic expansions, it is very likely that J2a-Z30685 also spread with this component seeing that it is also found in Samaritans and in Armenians. As for J2a-SK1321 is still found primarily in the Caucasus. J2a-Z6048 and J2a-Z6055 are Neolithic farmer lineages and expanded in all directions as they are found in Europe, the Middle East and South Asia.

J2b

J2b-M205 was found in Ain Ghazal Bronze Age Jordan

J2b-L283 was found in Bronze Age Croatia, being very likely a proto Illyrian.

J2b-M205 was found in Bronze Age Sidon Lebanon

J2b-L283>Z600 was found in late Bronze Age Armenia, he is also Western shifting

J2b-M205 was found in 1st Millennium BC Egypt

J2b-M205 was found in Roman Gladiator and was of Middle Eastern origin (either Levantine or Egyptian, with Egyptian being more likely based on his autosomal).

Like J2a, J2b has been rarely found especially in the J-M241 lineages, there is only 2 J2b-L283 samples found so far and it really seems that J2b-L283 lineages expanded with the Indo-Europeans, it probably got absorbed from the Maykop Culture (My prediction). As for J2b-M205 it is very clear this line expanded with Semitic speakers especially where it was found and the dates as well.

Trojet
12-06-2017, 03:38 PM
Great thread Principe!

As you know, I'm more interested in J2b-L283, and I pretty much agree with what you said about this branch considering what's known so far. Besides the theory that J2b-L283 expanded as an Indo-European marker (Maykop?), the alternative hypothesis I have is that it expanded from the Italian territory or the area around the Adriatic. However, this would mean that J2b-L283 (TMRCA 6000 ybp) came to Europe in the Neolithic and the LBA Armenian is a back-migration from Balkan/Europe, which seems unlikely, and therefore the Bronze Age I-E expansion makes more sense at the moment.

You mentioned that the LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600* is "Western" shifted. I find this interesting. I'm not too good with Autosomal, but I wonder if this could mean he migrated from further West or even North.

Principe
12-06-2017, 04:28 PM
Great thread Principe!

As you know, I'm more interested in J2b-L283, and I pretty much agree with what you said about this branch considering what's known so far. Besides the theory that J2b-L283 expanded as an Indo-European marker (Maykop?), the alternative hypothesis I have is that it expanded from the Italian territory or the area around the Adriatic. However, this would mean that J2b-L283 (TMRCA 6000 ybp) came to Europe in the Neolithic and the LBA Armenian is a back-migration from Balkan/Europe, which seems unlikely, and therefore the Bronze Age I-E expansion makes more sense at the moment.

You mentioned that the LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600* is "Western" shifted. I find this interesting. I'm not too good with Autosomal, but I wonder if this could mean he migrated from further West or even North.

Thanks very much Trojet :)

Autosomal is not my forte either, but the LBA Armenian does have Western or Steppe DNA, his Gedmatch kit is M263493, you can see on various calculators he comes out 30% EHG like which is a lot and on Gedrosia Neolithic K13 his 3 way population has him coming off as half Albanian plus a quarter Georgian and a quarter Steppe and all of his 2 way populations give him as part Turkish or Armenian and half Steppe. But what's interesting also is the J2b-L283 found in Bronze Age Croatia also comes out as 30% EHG/Steppe. In my opinion Maykop makes a lot of sense, probably was originally a Caucasian/Iran Neolithic marker and once in Maykop it got Indo-Europeanized and spread afterwards, this would easily explain why they haven't found it in the Pontic Steppe because it was more South in Caucasus.

I forgot to write that the closest population that resembles LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600 is Abkhasian and Adygei which is roughly the 2 populations that inhabit the areas that was the Maykop culture.

Kanenas
12-06-2017, 10:30 PM
Thanks very much Trojet :)

Autosomal is not my forte either, but the LBA Armenian does have Western or Steppe DNA, his Gedmatch kit is M263493, you can see on various calculators he comes out 30% EHG like which is a lot and on Gedrosia Neolithic K13 his 3 way population has him coming off as half Albanian plus a quarter Georgian and a quarter Steppe and all of his 2 way populations give him as part Turkish or Armenian and half Steppe. But what's interesting also is the J2b-L283 found in Bronze Age Croatia also comes out as 30% EHG/Steppe. In my opinion Maykop makes a lot of sense, probably was originally a Caucasian/Iran Neolithic marker and once in Maykop it got Indo-Europeanized and spread afterwards, this would easily explain why they haven't found it in the Pontic Steppe because it was more South in Caucasus.

I forgot to write that the closest population that resembles LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600 is Abkhasian and Adygei which is roughly the 2 populations that inhabit the areas that was the Maykop culture.

What is the Gedmatch kit of the BA Croatian one?

Gravetto-Danubian
12-07-2017, 12:24 AM
delete

Gravetto-Danubian
12-07-2017, 12:26 AM
I'm not sure which one is the J2b, but here are MLBA as well as earlier ancient Armenians modelled on the basic ancient sources with nMonte PCoA, for an overview.

20274

The MLBA certainly have EHG admixture, as already pointed out in the paper.
However some of EHG was also present in the Chalcolithic, but fell away completely during the EBA, to come back again after 2200 BC.

It suggests that (i) there was an early contact between Armenia and north of Caucasus since 4000 BC, perhaps 5000BC, corresponding with EHG appearing south and CHG north.
EHG drops away during to zero in the EBA (Kura-Araxes culture), suggesting it represents the expansion of a new group with notably different affinity.
The return of steppe admixture parallels the appearance of kurgan type burials in the middle Bronze Age, in parts of Armenia, etc.

Trojet
12-07-2017, 11:43 AM
What is the Gedmatch kit of the BA Croatian one?

That sample comes from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616

The raw data is not available yet. The components come from what was reported on the paper.

Piquerobi
12-07-2017, 01:09 PM
Quite informative, thanks!

Piquerobi
12-07-2017, 10:53 PM
It would be interesting for comparison a post on "the history of J1". :)

Agamemnon
12-08-2017, 12:06 AM
It would be interesting for comparison a post on "the history of J1". :)

I'll probably open that thread when the upcoming Chalcolithic and Bronze Age data from Israel is released.

Kelmendasi
12-08-2017, 10:39 PM
I'll probably open that thread when the upcoming Chalcolithic and Bronze Age data from Israel is released.
When will they be released? J1-Z2313 will most probably show up imo

Agamemnon
12-09-2017, 01:04 AM
When will they be released? J1-Z2313 will most probably show up imo

I was expecting them in October, it's taking longer than I expected (I hope they included samples from other sites).

Kelmendasi
12-09-2017, 01:53 PM
I was expecting them in October, it's taking longer than I expected (I hope they included samples from other sites).
Damn, it's December now xD. Hopefully they release them soon

Principe
01-05-2018, 03:39 PM
This is all theory but I have been looking at the Yfull chart of J2 and looking at the formation and TMRCA dates, with additions to looking at the surrounding cultures to put into historical context.

To start there seems to be a migration of J2 into South Asia around 8000-6500 ybp, the following lines correlate with this J2b-Z2433 (J2b-M241),J2a-M68 (J2a-Z6057), J2a-Y15604 (J2a-F3133) and J2a-YSC246 (J2a-PF5197). Some R2a lines and G1 seem to expand with J2 in this particular migration, well at least formations and TMRCA matches.

Then I took a look at what could have expanded during the Shulaveri-Shomu culture which lasted pretty long and all of these J2's have lines expanded throughout the duration. The lines are J-M92 (J2a-Z500) which alone is a large line, J-Y11200 (J2a-Z7671), J-CTS6804 (J2a-Z7671) essentially most J-Z7671, and J-Y20569 (J2a-L198). What's interesting is that G-M406 lineages are also expanding around this time and these 4 J2a's and G-M406 are usually found together, so there may be more to it.

Then there is the lineages which could be potentially linked with Halaf/Hassuna/Ubaid culture expansion, which doesn't follow the exact same patterns as the lineages above but is nevertheless expanding to the South. J-L243 (J2a-PF4888), J-M205 (J2b-M205) extremely likely basically 100% based on ancient dna, J-F3133 lineages, and J-PF5177 lineages. Coincide with J1-L817 and J1-Z1853.

Then we have Kura Araxes Culture expansion, what's interesting is that following J2's have huge bottlenecks before this era, they mostly belong to J-Z6065 and J-Z467 lineages, we have J-Y37496 (J2a-Z6065), J-S21160 (J2a-Z467), J-P279 (J2a2-L581), J-L210 (J2a-Z467), J-M47 (J2a-Z6065), and J2a-FGC15901 (J2a-Z6065). Now it doesn't necessarily mean these are guaranteed Kura Araxes lines but it is interesting that these lines emerge during this period, and J-M47 is a good candidate for a Sumerian line and J-P279 for Elamite, but well have to wait and see.

These are not all the lineages as for some I had a hard time placing. This is merely theory and observation.

ddugas
01-11-2018, 03:22 PM
Very intersting Principe. Thanks. I manage a surname project with a F3133 lineage and a P279 lineage (same last name). My data has always suggested that the P279 might have existed in a geographical area more associated with the Halaf/Hassuna/Ubaid while the F3133 would be a great candidate for Elamite...sort of the opposite of what you propose above. I was wondering what specifically drew you to the conclusions on F3133 and P279.

For me, I see quite a bit of P279 in Lebanese, while I suspect the highest frequencies of F3133 are Iran and Arabian Gulf as well as being a bit less frequent in areas like Lebanon. In short, I see F3133 frequencies and likely variance spiking much further east than P279.

Principe
01-11-2018, 04:39 PM
Very intersting Principe. Thanks. I manage a surname project with a F3133 lineage and a P279 lineage (same last name). My data has always suggested that the P279 might have existed in a geographical area more associated with the Halaf/Hassuna/Ubaid while the F3133 would be a great candidate for Elamite...sort of the opposite of what you propose above. I was wondering what specifically drew you to the conclusions on F3133 and P279.

For me, I see quite a bit of P279 in Lebanese, while I suspect the highest frequencies of F3133 are Iran and Arabian Gulf as well as being a bit less frequent in areas like Lebanon. In short, I see F3133 frequencies and likely variance spiking much further east than P279.

My pleasure ddugas. Really good points thanks. Well for me what was part of my conclusion (not 100% set in stone a BigY or ancient dna can change my opinion) was that J-P279 suffered a large bottleneck of 4000 years with its father clade PF4993, while F3133 is expanding during the same time of this bottleneck, the J-Y17404's oldest member is found in a Syrian at 6300 ybp, though I agree that it seems F3133 was born in the East probably Central Iran and had branches expanding in both directions. There is branches in F3133 that can be Elamite and Hassuna/Halaf/Ubaid.

ddugas
01-11-2018, 05:46 PM
The timing of these clades is so critical to understanding their dispersal. Also something I have not focused on as much as geography and frequency. Thanks for those comments. I keep a map of FGC9961 which is a subset of F3133 here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1YOL-YUiWEcn8HZL9lcGS0_ZCgnE&hl=en&ll=35.20183173820512%2C-0.6221008499999243&z=3

Of course the map suffers from sample bias. Iran is the big piece missing. It is likely the source of FGC9961 but Grugni 2012, which was a good paper for L24 overall, did not type any further downstream.

I do have access to geno data and noted that J-F3369 was found in a Parsi Zoroastrian participant. Also here is a draft map I have been playing with-its a work in progress but is in line with your comments above.

https://imgur.com/a/KoiST


PS...I'm in Ottawa. You?

Best,

Principe
01-11-2018, 07:39 PM
The timing of these clades is so critical to understanding their dispersal. Also something I have not focused on as much as geography and frequency. Thanks for those comments. I keep a map of FGC9961 which is a subset of F3133 here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1YOL-YUiWEcn8HZL9lcGS0_ZCgnE&hl=en&ll=35.20183173820512%2C-0.6221008499999243&z=3

Of course the map suffers from sample bias. Iran is the big piece missing. It is likely the source of FGC9961 but Grugni 2012, which was a good paper for L24 overall, did not type any further downstream.

I do have access to geno data and noted that J-F3369 was found in a Parsi Zoroastrian participant. Also here is a draft map I have been playing with-its a work in progress but is in line with your comments above.

https://imgur.com/a/KoiST


PS...I'm in Ottawa. You?

Best,

Your maps are stunning, great job! B)

Iran is definitely key, I would also include Iraq and Syria which not many samples have been taken, these areas are crucial for the understanding of J2.

My pleasure,

And I'm from Montreal.

Edward J
01-11-2018, 10:13 PM
Any thoughts on Z387 and associated subclades?

Cheers!

Principe
01-12-2018, 02:00 AM
Any thoughts on Z387 and associated subclades?

Cheers!

J-Z387 lineages are one of the harder ones to put a theory on, J-L70 is really the difficult one, J-FGC35503 lineages had a large bottleneck 2700 years, it can be a Kura Araxes or Ubaid lineage seeing that oldest samples seem to be Lebanon its likely a Iran Chalco lineage that spread West and South.

Edward J
01-12-2018, 02:06 PM
J-Z387 lineages are one of the harder ones to put a theory on, J-L70 is really the difficult one, J-FGC35503 lineages had a large bottleneck 2700 years, it can be a Kura Araxes or Ubaid lineage seeing that oldest samples seem to be Lebanon its likely a Iran Chalco lineage that spread West and South.

Thanks Principe! It will be interesting in the coming years to see the Y-Tree blossom closer to the genealogical age.

My subclade under FGC 35503 is J-Z39973 (TMRA 2200 YBP), and using YFull tree, FTDNA projects, and STR matching, potential members seem to largely be a mix of western European and northern Caucasus dwellers. I think we will be able to further define splits as full sequencing becomes more affordable.

Principe
01-12-2018, 03:22 PM
Thanks Principe! It will be interesting in the coming years to see the Y-Tree blossom closer to the genealogical age.

My subclade under FGC 35503 is J-Z39973 (TMRA 2200 YBP), and using YFull tree, FTDNA projects, and STR matching, potential members seem to largely be a mix of western European and northern Caucasus dwellers. I think we will be able to further define splits as full sequencing becomes more affordable.

My Pleasure :)

I agree with your points, would also be nice if they find an ancient sample of FGC35503 too would certainly help find the origin.

jkochiss
01-26-2018, 03:44 AM
Hi Principe,
I am a Y37496 from the z6065 you mentioned earlier. We are just now getting on Yfull and there are about 50 of us in the Cluster. My group comes from England along the Welsh Border and some into Scotland. Our closest STR matches are all of the Armenians and some Georgians and ethnic Armenians in Turkey. Any ideas as to why that is? Some research shows that we could be Norman but i would love to know our migration out of Armenia. The Armenian we are closest to in STRs comes from a place that is now central Turkey. We have more big y’s coming through that should help the dating.

Principe
01-26-2018, 04:07 AM
Hi Principe,
I am a Y37496 from the z6065 you mentioned earlier. We are just now getting on Yfull and there are about 50 of us in the Cluster. My group comes from England along the Welsh Border and some into Scotland. Our closest STR matches are all of the Armenians and some Georgians and ethnic Armenians in Turkey. Any ideas as to why that is? Some research shows that we could be Norman but i would love to know our migration out of Armenia. The Armenian we are closest to in STRs comes from a place that is now central Turkey. We have more big y’s coming through that should help the dating.

Hi jkochiss,

That is great news to hear that many BigY are on their way! :)

Well when it comes to Z6065 branches all seem to be expanding from roughly the same time frame of the Kura Araxes Culture which expanded in all directions East, West and South. So your ancestor could have been in Armenia or East/Central Turkey, maybe the Levant for some time probably until the Roman times, then probably migrated to France (in the case it turns out to be Norman).

J Man
01-28-2018, 02:10 AM
Hi jkochiss,

That is great news to hear that many BigY are on their way! :)

Well when it comes to Z6065 branches all seem to be expanding from roughly the same time frame of the Kura Araxes Culture which expanded in all directions East, West and South. So your ancestor could have been in Armenia or East/Central Turkey, maybe the Levant for some time probably until the Roman times, then probably migrated to France (in the case it turns out to be Norman).

I am also Z6065+ and I belong to the J-YP879* sub-clade.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6065/

Principe
01-28-2018, 04:01 AM
I am also Z6065+ and I belong to the J-YP879* sub-clade.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6065/

Cool B)

Why don’t you put J2a-FGC15901 or YP879 as under your Y-DNA!

J Man
01-28-2018, 05:11 AM
Cool B)

Why don’t you put J2a-FGC15901 or YP879 as under your Y-DNA!

Done! :)

Principe
02-23-2018, 05:31 PM
Thanks to Trojet we have an update on the J2b-L283 from Bronze Age Dalmatia who turned out to be J-Y15058

Trojet
02-23-2018, 05:50 PM
Thanks to Trojet we have an update on the J2b-L283 from Bronze Age Dalmatia who turned out to be J-Y15058

Considering the Bronze Age Dalmatian sample and modern diversity, I think J-L283>>Z2507 (TMRCA 4400 ybp) was already in the (Western) Balkans when it expanded into Z638 and Y15058. If we look at some cultures in the region, I think Vucedol or Cetina would be very good candidates.

J Man
02-23-2018, 05:51 PM
Thanks to Trojet we have an update on the J2b-L283 from Bronze Age Dalmatia who turned out to be J-Y15058

An early relative of many modern day Albanians. ;)

Principe
02-23-2018, 06:06 PM
Considering the Bronze Age Dalmatian sample and modern diversity, I think J-L283>>Z2507 (TMRCA 4400 ybp) was already in the (Western) Balkans when it expanded into Z638 and Y15058. If we look at some cultures in the region, I think Vucedol or Cetina would be very good candidates.

Yeah does seem to be the case even with early splits of Z2507, I think Cetina Culture could be the result of J2b-L283 arrival to the area and Vucedol is a good candidate for the oldest J2b-L283 in Europe.

Principe
02-23-2018, 06:07 PM
An early relative of many modern day Albanians. ;)

He sure is and gives stronger evidence to the Albanian-Illyrian connection B)

Principe
02-24-2018, 04:15 AM
Thanks to the great work of Trojet :) we have 2 confirmed J2a-Z6048’s in Neolithic Austria, samples I5068 and I5207. This confirms that J2a-Z6048’s were among the Anatolian Neolithic Farmer lineages.

Arslanbek
03-05-2018, 08:21 PM
🤔 very interesting

Arslanbek
03-05-2018, 08:23 PM
My subclade under FGC 35503 is J-Z39973 (TMRA 2200 YBP), and using YFull tree, FTDNA projects, and STR matching, potential members seem to largely be a mix of western European and northern Caucasus dwellers. I think we will be able to further define splits as full sequencing becomes more affordable.

Hi, Edward!
It seems to me that you are the one of my closest neighbors on Yfull tree)
I’m J-Z39975*
(J2 – J-M410 – J-PF4610 – J-L26 – J-PF5087 – J-PF5160 – J-L24 – J-L25 – J-Z438 – J-Z387 – J-Y17949 – J-FGC35461 – J-FGC35489 – J-Z39975 – J-Z43045 – J-Z39975*)
I’m on Facebook - Arslan Kodzokua

Principe
03-07-2018, 04:58 AM
A big thank you to Trojet for running the snps for sample I5078 from Sopot Neolithic :) I5078 turned out to be J2a-Y13128 under J2a-Z6055>Z6057, now being the second Neolithic farmer sample under J2a-Z6055 other being found in Neolithic Hungary. Which based on these results that J2a-Z6055 along with J2a-Z6048 were involved in the Anatolian Neolithic Farmer migrations. This matches previous finds and concludes that both J2a-Z6055 and J2a-Z6048 were involved with the diffusion of Farming.

Davide
04-15-2018, 05:10 PM
Hi !
I'm Y-18039 (CTS8204).
Any information about ?

TuaMan
04-15-2018, 05:23 PM
Does anyone have any theories on where J1 and J2 may have diverged?

J Man
04-15-2018, 05:43 PM
Does anyone have any theories on where J1 and J2 may have diverged?

Based on what we have so far likely somewhere in the area of northern Iran to the South Caucasus.

Principe
04-15-2018, 08:10 PM
Hi !
I'm Y-18039 (CTS8204).
Any information about ?

In ancient dna it hasn’t been found yet, looking at Yfull looks like a Middle Eastern line.

Principe
05-13-2018, 07:34 PM
Well there is some updates

Big News for J2a-FGC9962 and special thanks to ddugas and open genomes for processing the samples from 137 genomes across Eurasian Steppes.

From this paper we have 7 samples under J2a-FGC9962 and 1 under J2a-PF4993.

We have 3 Tian Shan Saka (Scythians) including one who belongs to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and the other 2 staying at the FGC9962 level.

We have 2 Karakhanids that are also under J2a-FGC9962.

And finally 2 Karluks belonging to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32507.

Additionally from the paper we have a medieval Nomad from Tian Shan that carries J2a2-L581>PF4993.

In terms of what this all means in their history and how it relates to the History of J2, well seeing that FGC9962 was found and there is 2 downstreams of it found throughout the ages would suggest that J2a-FGC9962 is from the area or near by. Thus the best candidate would be the original inhabitants of the BMAC or Oxus civilization. This was a very civilized culture that had an extensive trading routes with near by cultures such as IVC and Elamites. They also had a profound influence on the incoming Indo Aryans and Indo Iranians.

The History of BMAC or Oxus Civilization is very interesting and I'll post the wiki article just for a base in understanding its history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

I will also post the Full Tree of J2a-FGC9962

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y14698/

As for Medieval Nomad that was J2a-PF4993 at the moment its historical presence is not really understood based on the age of the sample and hopefully further ancient dna papers will find more samples under this subclade to understand its history.

Principe
05-13-2018, 10:25 PM
Further updates in light of the new paper involving the first horse herders and Bronze Age Anatolia.

We have 5 new J2a's from this paper and thanks to the work of Open Genomes and 167273 we have further snp analysis.

The first older two come from the Chalcolithic site of Namazga and one belongs to J2a-PF5197>YSC0000253, unfortunately the other sample is of lower coverage but could be deduced to belong to J2a-L24.

Yfull Tree of J2a-YSC0000253

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000253/

Historically this would make J2a-YSC0000253 a lineage of the original BMAC or Oxus civilization before Indo-Ayran and Indo-Iranian expansions, and thus with the results from the 137 genomes from the Eurasian Steppe we now know that J2a-YSC0000253 and J2a-FGC9962 (Y14698) were lineages of the original BMAC people. It will be possible that more branches of J2a and possibly J2b will discovered in belonging to the original Oxus or BMAC civilization, this will definitely be updated once the Central and South Asian paper samples will be released.

As for their spread into the area, it is very likely but will need ancient dna to confirm, is the Jeitun Culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitun

The next three come from Bronze Age Anatolia, the first 2 date to the old Hittite period and the other is from Early Bronze Age Anatolia II. The results for them are two J2a-Z467>Z6271 (S21160) and the other belongs to J2a-Z6065>Y37496.

These three results are the remnants of the previous Early Bronze Age and Chalcolithic Anatolian Cultures, and it is very likely with high confidence that they are the first three Hattic samples that we have, there is of course the possibility that they may belong to the Kura Araxes Culture but more sampling of the area will be needed to see.

The Yfull charts of both J2a-Z6271 and J2a-Y37496

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6271/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y37496/

I am also posting the wiki article of the Hattians as they are an interesting civilization, as well as the article on the Hittites in which the samples belonging in this era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

I am hopeful that more samples from the area and surrounding areas will be published so a more complete history can be told of the expansion of J2a-PF5116 lineages.

J Man
05-14-2018, 05:15 PM
Well there is some updates

Big News for J2a-FGC9962 and special thanks to ddugas and open genomes for processing the samples from 137 genomes across Eurasian Steppes.

From this paper we have 7 samples under J2a-FGC9962 and 1 under J2a-PF4993.

We have 3 Tian Shan Saka (Scythians) including one who belongs to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and the other 2 staying at the FGC9962 level.

We have 2 Karakhanids that are also under J2a-FGC9962.

And finally 2 Karluks belonging to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32507.

Additionally from the paper we have a medieval Nomad from Tian Shan that carries J2a2-L581>PF4993.

In terms of what this all means in their history and how it relates to the History of J2, well seeing that FGC9962 was found and there is 2 downstreams of it found throughout the ages would suggest that J2a-FGC9962 is from the area or near by. Thus the best candidate would be the original inhabitants of the BMAC or Oxus civilization. This was a very civilized culture that had an extensive trading routes with near by cultures such as IVC and Elamites. They also had a profound influence on the incoming Indo Aryans and Indo Iranians.

The History of BMAC or Oxus Civilization is very interesting and I'll post the wiki article just for a base in understanding its history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

I will also post the Full Tree of J2a-FGC9962

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y14698/

As for Medieval Nomad that was J2a-PF4993 at the moment its historical presence is not really understood based on the age of the sample and hopefully further ancient dna papers will find more samples under this subclade to understand its history.

Here is a link to the archaeological description of the Eurasian Steppe Y-DNA haplogroup J2a samples burials. The DA124 Issyk Medieval Nomad burial and the DA203 and DA204 Karakhanid samples are the only ones where the actual individual burials are described in detail. The Baskiya-1 burial ground where the J2a DA57, DA58 and DA59 Tian Shan Saka remains are found is described but the individual burials for some reason are not described in detail which is rather unfortunate. Also I can't find any information about the DA222 and DA230 Karluk samples burials anywhere.

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41586-018-0094-2/MediaObjects/41586_2018_94_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

J Man
05-16-2018, 06:00 PM
Here is the description of the DA124 Medieval Issyk Nomad sample that belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a....Not much information is given about the skull or skeleton that this DNA sample was taken from though for some reason.

''The Medieval Issyk nomad
By Gulmira Mukhtarova
Bone samples were taken from a skull found in a burial site in the territory of Issyk Mogilnik, located
50-55 km east of the city of Almaty, that spans both sides of the Issyk River in the immediate vicinity
of the town of Issyk at the center of the Enbekshikazakh district of the Almaty region.
Recent data has shown that the cemetery covers a larger area than previously thought, including both
banks of the river Issyk, extending for up to 10 km. More than 300 medium and large burial mounds
have been identified in this necropolis, together with a large number of smaller ones (i.e. <0.5 m in
height). One of the four parts of the cemetery has been completely covered by the residential and
commercial buildings of the city of Issyk. Other parts have also been subjected to demolition or
modification in the course of human activities.
The location of the Issyk necropolis has been known since 1936. The most significant expedition to the
site was that of 1969-70. Arising from rescue excavations following construction of a parking lot, a
royal burial ground was found that had been undisturbed by robbers. This burial site is known as the
"Golden Man".''

Jack Johnson
11-25-2018, 03:38 AM
I know this is an older thread, but I have been interested as of late as to the origins of J2 in Europe, especially J2a. I have looked at a few ancient samples and one that sticks out to me is the FEB3 and FEB3a/I1902 samples. Now I have looked at both of the papers these samples were reported in and it appears that these two may be the same person, for in the first paper Szecsenyi-Nagy 2015, FEB3 was reported as having just mtdna haplogroup H, and now in the most recent paper Lipson et al 2017, FEB3a/I1902 is reported as having H44, and a more specific subclade of J2 (J2a-L152). Also being reported as FEB3a leads me to believe that this is more of an updated sample, rather than a new sample.

Principe
12-28-2018, 04:48 PM
Alright guys further updates on J2 based on ancient samples, the first sample to mention is an update on the Mycenaean sample that is solely classified as J2a-L26 from the Mycenaean site of Troezen, it turns out that he is positive for Z6057 but the sample is of lower quality and thus further downstream analysis is not possible. What does this mean in terms of history, well seeing how Z6057 has appeared in the Neolithic Sopot culture and Lengyel Cultures of Croatia and Hungary respectively , its possible that Z6057 could have been a Neolithic marker in Greece as well and makes this sample a local inhabitants that admixed with the new incoming Greek speakers, a second option can be that as the ancestors of the Mycenaeans came down to Greece they mixed with the local farmers of Carpathian mountain range bring Z6057 down with them.

Principe
12-28-2018, 06:24 PM
Now an update with samples from the Greater Caucasus paper.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/16/322347?rss=1&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

At the moment we have 5 confirmed J2 samples from this paper 4 of which have been further analyzed and 1 which we are awaiting the final results I2051 which is J2a. Amongst the 4 analyzed samples we have 1 J2b and 3 J2a. We can thank Trojet for excellent work on doing the Y snp calls. :)

The J2b belongs to J2b-L283*, this is a huge result, the sample is KDC001 and belongs to the Middle Bronze Age Northern Caucasus, this is now the third time we J2b-L283 in ancient dna, we have another L283* amongst the later Late Bronze Age Armenian samples and amongst the Middle Bronze Age Croatia in which the sample belongs to J2b-L283>Y15058*. What this result proves is that L283 sometime in past merged into the Steppe populations and became an IE marker and was important in the IE migrations into the Balkans, in fact the Croatian result would suggest that it is a Proto-Illyrian. L283 came in via the North whereas majority of J2 spread with Iran Neo/CHL/CHG, the mystery remains when L283 entered the Steppe population a Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age entry would be the most plausible, the most reasonable scenario would include somewhere between Z600 and Z615 (somewhere around 5400-4700 ybp) would make the most sense as the result of KDC001 seems to be closer related to the local Caucasian groups and the LBA Armenian sample is over 30% Steppe and at the same terminal clade, in other words we have 2 extinct branches at the same level and we the Croatian sample that has further designation, we know that 2 branches under L283 entered the Pontic Steppe. L283 entering can be similar to how R1b-V1636 which was found in the Chalcholithic Steppe made it into further Kura Araxes samples later on, L283 could have been brought in through cultural interactions either via Maykop proper or through Leyla Tepe which is bound to have been similar to Haji Faruz (samples awaiting to be published but 2 J2b's have been found).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

As for our three analyzed J2a samples they all belong J2a-Y11200 which is under the J2a-Z7671 branch. This comes to no surprise as today Z7671 is by far the most common J2a branch in the Caucasus followed by J2a-Z6048>SK1321 (which was found in Kotias Kide). The samples include I6266 and I6268 which are Maykop samples and I2056 which is a Chalcolithic sample dating from roughly 6477 or 6500 ybp this would suggest that Y11200 has an old presence in the Caucasus and that the Z30677 branch was born in the Caucasus, the results of the Maykop samples make the TMRCA of Z30677 a bit dubious since the Maykop samples are younger than Z30677's TMRCA its possible that Z30677 is in fact younger than estimated. The Chalcolithic sample also suggests that the original language of the Y11200 was not Northeast Caucasian as this language family was likely brought in by the Kura Araxes Culture, Y11200 original cultural language could have been Northwestern Caucasian or Kartvelian, apart from the linguistic association the migration of Y11200 is not associated with the migration of Kura Araxes and was brought in earlier, Shulaveri-Shomu Culture is a likely candidate as it is believed to be influenced by Halaf and Hassuna which would make sense with the increased Iran Neolithic admixture, as we see this component is associated with the movement of J lineages during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age periods.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y11200/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulaveri-Shomu_culture

sheepslayer
12-29-2018, 10:35 PM
Neat stuff. The one thing that puzzles me is the extent of the "MRCA horizon", or when J2a branches began forming in the Caucasus, and when they formed elsewhere. I'd like to figure out which SNP definitively marked the dawn of the Caucasian branches, whether it was as old as Z7671 or as new as Z30677.
YFull's tree makes clear distinctions for this set of SNPs. It's obvious which branches are Chechen, Saudi, and Caribbean. For this reason Y23162* sticks out like a sore thumb with its exclusively West Euro results. I'm too poor to afford a full sequence, but I have little doubt that's where I would fall. My curiosity is unbounded regarding just how this branch made it into Europe unlike its brothers.

Principe
12-29-2018, 10:50 PM
Neat stuff. The one thing that puzzles me is the extent of the "MRCA horizon", or when J2a branches began forming in the Caucasus, and when they formed elsewhere. I'd like to figure out which SNP definitively marked the dawn of the Caucasian branches, whether it was as old as Z7671 or as new as Z30677.
YFull's tree makes clear distinctions for this set of SNPs. It's obvious which branches are Chechen, Saudi, and Caribbean. For this reason Y23162* sticks out like a sore thumb with its exclusively West Euro results. I'm too poor to afford a full sequence, but I have little doubt that's where I would fall. My curiosity is unbounded regarding just how this branch made it into Europe unlike its brothers.

Honestly we'll more ancient samples to clear this out, Y11200 has been in the Caucasus for some as it's been there before Z30677's ancestor, and even that they found an ancient Y17946 in Bronze Age Hungary makes it even more difficult to be certain, the ancestor surely was born in the area and probably travelled West via Turkey and entered Southern Europe sometime during the Early Bronze Age from where it moved into Balkans and Central Europe, I doubt it came via the Steppe because we would see it much more defined like L283. There seems to have been a earlier migration from Caucasus and Fertile Crescent that brought some J2a branches into Turkey during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age.

J Man
12-30-2018, 12:26 AM
Now an update with samples from the Greater Caucasus paper.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/16/322347?rss=1&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

At the moment we have 5 confirmed J2 samples from this paper 4 of which have been further analyzed and 1 which we are awaiting the final results I2051 which is J2a. Amongst the 4 analyzed samples we have 1 J2b and 3 J2a. We can thank Trojet for excellent work on doing the Y snp calls. :)

The J2b belongs to J2b-L283*, this is a huge result, the sample is KDC001 and belongs to the Middle Bronze Age Northern Caucasus, this is now the third time we J2b-L283 in ancient dna, we have another L283* amongst the later Late Bronze Age Armenian samples and amongst the Middle Bronze Age Croatia in which the sample belongs to J2b-L283>Y15058*. What this result proves is that L283 sometime in past merged into the Steppe populations and became an IE marker and was important in the IE migrations into the Balkans, in fact the Croatian result would suggest that it is a Proto-Illyrian. L283 came in via the North whereas majority of J2 spread with Iran Neo/CHL/CHG, the mystery remains when L283 entered the Steppe population a Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age entry would be the most plausible, the most reasonable scenario would include somewhere between Z600 and Z615 (somewhere around 5400-4700 ybp) would make the most sense as the result of KDC001 seems to be closer related to the local Caucasian groups and the LBA Armenian sample is over 30% Steppe and at the same terminal clade, in other words we have 2 extinct branches at the same level and we the Croatian sample that has further designation, we know that 2 branches under L283 entered the Pontic Steppe. L283 entering can be similar to how R1b-V1636 which was found in the Chalcholithic Steppe made it into further Kura Araxes samples later on, L283 could have been brought in through cultural interactions either via Maykop proper or through Leyla Tepe which is bound to have been similar to Haji Faruz (samples awaiting to be published but 2 J2b's have been found).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

As for our three analyzed J2a samples they all belong J2a-Y11200 which is under the J2a-Z7671 branch. This comes to no surprise as today Z7671 is by far the most common J2a branch in the Caucasus followed by J2a-Z6048>SK1321 (which was found in Kotias Kide). The samples include I6266 and I6268 which are Maykop samples and I2056 which is a Chalcolithic sample dating from roughly 6477 or 6500 ybp this would suggest that Y11200 has an old presence in the Caucasus and that the Z30677 branch was born in the Caucasus, the results of the Maykop samples make the TMRCA of Z30677 a bit dubious since the Maykop samples are younger than Z30677's TMRCA its possible that Z30677 is in fact younger than estimated. The Chalcolithic sample also suggests that the original language of the Y11200 was not Northeast Caucasian as this language family was likely brought in by the Kura Araxes Culture, Y11200 original cultural language could have been Northwestern Caucasian or Kartvelian, apart from the linguistic association the migration of Y11200 is not associated with the migration of Kura Araxes and was brought in earlier, Shulaveri-Shomu Culture is a likely candidate as it is believed to be influenced by Halaf and Hassuna which would make sense with the increased Iran Neolithic admixture, as we see this component is associated with the movement of J lineages during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age periods.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y11200/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulaveri-Shomu_culture

So then J2a-Z6048>SK1321 may be of local Mesolithic hunter-gatherer origin while J2a-Y11200 may have come to the Caucasus with Neolithic Shulaveri-Shomu migrants. Of course we need actual DNA from Shulaveri-Shomu remains to prove that.

Jack Johnson
01-03-2019, 09:30 AM
Great information and thanks for creating this J2 forum. I was wondering if there is an up to date list of all prehistoric J/J2 samples online. I was once a frequent reader of Jean Marco’s ancestral journeys website, and it was a great database but it seems to have been taken offline since her unfortunate passing. Also do you agree that FEB3 and FEB3a are the same and are the two Minoan J2 samples J2a-Z6055 aswell?

Principe
01-04-2019, 04:39 PM
Great information and thanks for creating this J2 forum. I was wondering if there is an up to date list of all prehistoric J/J2 samples online. I was once a frequent reader of Jean Marco’s ancestral journeys website, and it was a great database but it seems to have been taken offline since her unfortunate passing. Also do you agree that FEB3 and FEB3a are the same and are the two Minoan J2 samples J2a-Z6055 aswell?

I am not sure about FEB3 and FEB3a, and it is my pleasure :)

The two Minoan samples are J2a-M319 and they are the direct influence of Iran Neolithic/CHG movements across the Aegean during the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. This wave likely brought the speakers of the Minoan language or Linear A.

Principe
01-04-2019, 04:43 PM
An update from the Greater Caucasus paper as 2 more J2a’s were found. The J2a’s are samples I2051 and I2055.

Unfortunately I2051 is a sample of low quality and he remains at the M410 level, where as I2055 belongs to J2a-CTS900 and most likely Y11200 like the other three samples, this sample is also Chalcolithic in age and dates to 6500 ybp again this is further confirmation that Y11200 has been in the Caucasus since the Chalcolithic and that major branches were borm there.

Principe
04-13-2019, 04:56 PM
Thanks to poster 167273 for bring light to me this sample and for the molgen crew to analyze it. :)

We have a Crimean Ostrogoth who belongs to J2a1-Z500>Y6240, it is sample KER_1.

Autosomally he clusters with Anatolian Greeks so perhaps the paternal line thus Y62140* is related to the Greek colonies of Crimea, since it is from the Medieval ages and is not a downstream clade it will be hard to determine an origin or with which ancestral component Y6240 is a part of, nevertheless it is the first confirmed ancient sample under Z500.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6240/

Principe
04-13-2019, 05:14 PM
The large Iberian paper was quite informative producing 9 J samples of which 5 were identified as J2a.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_0.pdf

These samples are somewhat special to me since these are the first samples that I analyzed myself, sadly three of the five J2a are not of great quality so downstreams were not able to be determined. The Greek Empurias samples I8202, I8205 and I8216 could not produce anything further than J as well as sample I8145.

Samples I12514 and I12515 belong to J2a-L26>PF4610>PF5119>L558>M319>Y16819, I12514 and I12514 are estimated to be alive between 900-1150 ybp and are listed as Muslim from Palau Castell de Betxi in Valencia. These samples are very likely to be directly related to a Middle Eastern Arab branch because Y16819 is an extremely rare branch of M319 and is the only M319 which seems to have a Middle Eastern origin, of course the sample is roughly 1000 years old and it belonging to an earlier wave can be excluded.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16819/

Sadly I3983 and I4054 are only positive until the Z1847 branch, Z1847 includes large branches like Z467, Z500 and Z7671 and these samples surely belong to a downstream but because of the quality it is impossible to know. Judging from the autosomal profile and the location of where they are from these samples they very likely represent a branch brought by the Phoenicians or their offshoot the Carthaginians.

The last J2a sample would be I12162 which was a Visigoth, that itself is fascinating and might somehow be related to the J2a seen in the Ostrogoth sample from the Crimea, though unfortunately sample I12162 is a very poor quality and seems to be negative for every branch under J2a which is impossible, so due to low coverage I was unable to accurately determine a J2a branch.

Principe
04-13-2019, 05:40 PM
A J2a1-L26 was found in the Huns, Avars and Conquering Hungarian paper. The J2a sample is identified as SH/81 and it is unfortunately a low quality sample and remains at the L26 level, according to its autosomal profile SH/81 should be of local origin perhaps representing a Pannonian lineage.

Principe
04-20-2019, 05:21 PM
Update on our 2 Minoan samples as they belong to the further downstream of M319>S17259*

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S17259/

Which now makes 3 of the 4 M319 branches being found in ancient and modern Aegean populations, M319 was very likely among the first wave of Iran Neo admixed peoples to arrive in the Aegean.

Bl1tzTurk
06-24-2019, 01:38 PM
A J2a1-L26 was found in the Huns, Avars and Conquering Hungarian paper. The J2a sample is identified as SH/81 and it is unfortunately a low quality sample and remains at the L26 level, according to its autosomal profile SH/81 should be of local origin perhaps representing a Pannonian lineage.

Hello Principe.

Can you give some information about Meskheti Turks? We live in Caucasus for centuries. Most of us belong to J-M172 but there is no further information about our possible origin..

asm
07-06-2019, 07:48 PM
Hello Principe.

Can you give some information about Meskheti Turks? We live in Caucasus for centuries. Most of us belong to J-M172 but there is no further information about our possible origin..

As far as I can see from the results of Ahiska Turks on Gedmatch, your atDNA is not so different from native populations.

Principe
10-15-2019, 03:31 PM
So Big Updates on J2's history based on Ancient samples.

Before I commence I would like to thank Pribislav and Trojet for all their hard work, its a team effort and it makes the most accurate calls.

Alright so we have a Mesolithic J2a sample from Iran, sample is I2312 and the sample was found in the Belt Cave near Behshahr in the Albroz Mountains, the sample dates to roughly 11 950 ybp or you can round off to 12 000 ybp, the branch is J2a2-PF5008 which in itself dates to 16 000 ybp, perhaps the PF5008 was born around the area.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5008/

We then have our 2 Hijji Firuz samples dating to roughly 7900 ybp and 7700 ybp, both samples I4241 and I4349 belong to the J2b-Z1825>Z2453>PreBY22519 branch which today seems to be exclusively found in Jordanians and Palestinians.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY22519/

Principe
10-15-2019, 04:23 PM
We then have our Tepe Hissar C period sample I2337 dating to roughly 5530 ybp, represented by the J2a-F3133>F3369>Z40298 branch which has a TMRCA of 6000 ybp being roughly close to the date.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z40298/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tepe_Hissar

The Tepe Hissar C period is marked by a proto-urban phase and significant wealth, it appears there might be some connections with the developing BMAC culture.

There is an additional Tepe Hissar C sample which dates much young, sample I2927 which dates to roughly 4400 ybp, and the sample belongs to J2a-F3133.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/

alchemist223
10-15-2019, 04:43 PM
So Big Updates on J2's history based on Ancient samples.

Before I commence I would like to thank Pribislav and Trojet for all their hard work, its a team effort and it makes the most accurate calls.

Alright so we have a Mesolithic J2a sample from Iran, sample is I2312 and the sample was found in the Belt Cave near Behshahr in the Albroz Mountains, the sample dates to roughly 11 950 ybp or you can round off to 12 000 ybp, the branch is J2a2-PF5008 which in itself dates to 16 000 ybp, perhaps the PF5008 was born around the area.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5008/



Isn't this the sample from the "World's First Farmers" paper by Lazaridis?

Principe
10-15-2019, 05:28 PM
We have samples from the Jiroft Culture which is extremely fascinating they are represented by the Shahr-i Sokhta site, the Jiroft Culture was the Bronze Age Culture of Eastern Iran and Afghanistan. A fascinating Culture which should be read up on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiroft_culture

In any case we have Jiroft proper and Jiroft Indus Periphery samples, for a total of 8 samples of which 2 are of lower quality and remains at the J2 and J2a-L26 level, 1 belongs to J2b and the remaining 5 belong to J2a.

1. I8726, which dates to 5000 ybp and belongs to J2a>F3133>Y15604 (Indus Periphery Sample) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15604/

2. I8725, which dates to 4900 ybp and belongs to J2a-YSC253* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000253/

3. I8724, which dates to 4900 ybp and belongs to J2a-L26 (low quality sample)

4. I11480, which dates to 4800 ybp and belongs to J2b-Z2432>Y22893 (Indus Periphery Sample) https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y33893/

5. I11460, which dates to 4600 ybp and belongs to J2 (low quality sample)

6. I11474, which dates to 4600 ybp and belongs to J2a2-P279>Y25795 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y25795/

7. I11478, which dates to 4500 ybp and belongs to J2a-F3133>Y15604>PreY15598 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y15598/

8. I8728, which dates to 4500 ybp and belongs to J2a-PF5172>Z6082 (Indus Periphery Sample) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6082/

Principe
10-15-2019, 05:31 PM
Isn't this the sample from the "World's First Farmers" paper by Lazaridis?

It is but I have updated by putting more information.

Principe
10-15-2019, 06:21 PM
Now to BMAC, which cannot be stressed how significant this culture was and its role in the Bronze Age Silk road, the BMAC samples come from the sites of Bustan, Gonur Tepe and Sappali Tepe. The total number of samples in 11. BMAC has been mentioned here before, if readers want to go back and check it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

1. I11028, which dates to 5100 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Y15604>PreY17404 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y17404/

2. I1792, which dates to 4300 ybp, from Gonur, and belongs to J2a-L24>Y22662 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22662/

3. I10411, which dates to 4200 ybp, from Gonur, and belongs to J2a2-PF4993>PreP279 https://yfull.com/tree/J-P279/

4. I2128, which dates to 4100 ybp, from Gonur, and belongs to J2a-F3133 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/ (Probably a lower quality sample)

5. I7494, which dates to 3900 ybp, from Sappali, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Z7706>L192 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L192/

6. I7421, which dates to 3800 ybp, from Sappali, and belongs to J2a2-PF5008* https://yfull.com/tree/J-PF5008/

7. I11027, which dates to 3500 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Z7661* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z7661/

8. I4899, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-M410 (low quality sample)

9. I4157, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2b-Z2432 (low quality) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

10. I4159, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-PF5172>PF5177>PF5252 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5252/

11. I4794, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Aktobe, Kazashkstan, sample is part of Steppe BMAC, and belongs to J2a-F3133 (low quality sample) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/

We also have a sample from Aigyrzhal, Kyrgyzstan which has the same Y line as the oldest sample from Bustan dating to the Chalcolithic so pre BMAC.

12. I11527, which dates to 4000 ybp, from Aigyrzhal, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Y15604>PreY17404 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y17404/

Principe
10-15-2019, 07:06 PM
Now to Geoksyur Tepe which is a Chalcolithic site located in Turkmenistan, the reason for its significance is that it is connected to Namazaga Culture which is also pre BMAC Culture. There is one J2a sample from this Culture, the sample is I12482 and belongs to J2a2-PF4993.

https://yfull.com/tree/J-PF4993/

The other older sample reported in a previous paper of the Namzaga Culture belongs to J2a-YSC253, the significance of these finds are huge, because we see YSC253 and P279 (branch of PF4993) appear in the Jiroft Culture, coupled with the Y15604 branch found in Chalcolithic Bustan which also links the later BMAC Culture and Jiroft together. Also appears to have links with the Indus Periphery samples as well. What seems to be happening is that a culture predating BMAC, Jiroft and maybe IVC brought in these lineages and the common denominator would be the Jeitun culture and the Anau Culture, the Anau Culture would also link Tepe Hissar into the mix and as it belongs to a J2a-F3133 branch this makes total sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anau,_Turkmenistan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitun

With this scenario we have a Neolithic and Chalcolithic wave of J2 branches moving Eastwards, now which branches might be associated with a Neolithic Wave or Chalcolithic wave might be hard to pick apart and all ultimately coming from the Iranian plateau. At least 5 J2 branches were involved in forming at least BMAC and Jiroft, along with potentially IVC hopefully we get more samples. There might also be a distant connection with Elam that should be considered as well, with undiscovered ancient branches of PF5160 representing the Elamites.

They include 4 branches of J2a and 1 of J2b

1. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/

2. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000253/

3. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5174/

4. https://yfull.com/tree/J-PF4993/

5. https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

Principe
10-15-2019, 07:48 PM
Now last from the Central and South Asian paper we have our Swat Valley samples which date to the Iron Age through Medieval and in total represents 9 samples. Coming from multiple sites such as Butkara, Udegram, Loebanr, Katelai, and Parwak.

1. I12465, which dates to 2800 ybp, from Katelai, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Z7706 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z7706/

2. I12453, which dates to 2800 ybp, from Katelai, and belongs to J2a-L26 (low quality sample)

3. I12463, which dates to 2800 ybp, from Katelai, and belongs to J2a-PF5174>Z7308>CTS667 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS667/

4. I5396, which dates to 2800 ybp, from Katelai, and belongs to J2a-PF5174>PreZ7308 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z7308/

5. I12458, which dates to 2800 ybp, from Loebanr, and belongs to J2b-Z2432>Y950 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y950/

6. I12982, which dates to 2800 ybp, from Loebanr, and belongs to J2b-Z2432>Y950>Y2155 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y2155/

7. I12451, which dates to 2800 ybp, from Butkara, and belongs to J2a-L25 (low quality sample)

8. I1808, which dates to 1100 ybp, from Parwak, and belongs to J2b-M102 (low quality sample)

9. I7716, which dates to 700 ybp, from Udegram, and belongs to J2a-F3133>FGC9942>Y14698 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y14698/

Principe
10-19-2019, 03:05 PM
Big update!! I re-looked at the Visigothic Sample from Spain, and it turns out he belongs to J2a-L70>Z2177*

So sample I12162, Visigoth Spain is J2a-Z2177, https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2177/

I will relook at the other two samples

I3983 remains at J2a-Z1847 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1847/

SUPREEEEEME
10-25-2019, 08:21 AM
I belong to J-L70. My paternal line is Ashkenazi Jewish (Judean/Levantine). I have noticed that my subclade is found all the way from Saudi Arabia to the British Isles.

Principe
12-05-2019, 05:16 PM
Now there will be some updates with the J2 samples from the Antonio et al. Roman paper

To start we have 2 Neolithic J2a samples from Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche dating to 5300-5200 BC or 7300-7200 ybp.

The samples are

R17, which belongs to J2a2-PreY29673 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y29673/

R19, which belongs to J2a-S11842* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-S11842/

Both these samples came as shocks really, as J2a2 clades up until now have been exclusively found in ancient Iranian and Central Asian samples and all S11842 samples to date have been found in Middle Bronze Age Anatolian samples so it was unexpected. The Neolithic samples from Ripabianca di Monterado do contain Iran Neo like admixture which would suggest they came from a different source Neolithic Farmer population and perhaps may be linked to the J2a-Z6057 samples that keep appearing in later Neolithic Balkan groups. This can maybe lead to future surprising finds in terms of some lineages, but until then this is what is known.

Principe
12-05-2019, 05:31 PM
The only Y chromosome from any Etruscan samples in this paper is surprisingly a J2b-L283 branch which to date has been found in Chalcolithic Caucasus, LBA Armenia and MBA Croatia. The Etruscans are a fascinating ancient culture which their origins have been debated for millennia, this paper offers clues to their genetic makeup.

Our Etruscan sample which dates from 700-600 BCE or 2700-2600 ybp

Sample R474 belongs to J2b-L283>CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

Judging from the date of CTS6190's TMRCA it is likely that all branches under CTS6190 owe their origins to an Etruscan one if the dates from Yfull are 100% accurate. The first ever Etruscan Y line discovered is a J2b-L283 branch. CTS6190 has been discussed quite a bit before its ancient sample has been discovered, and an Etruscan or Central Italian origin has been predicted, so this is confirmed.

hartaisarlag
12-05-2019, 05:43 PM
The only Y chromosome from any Etruscan samples in this paper is surprisingly a J2b-L283 branch which to date has been found in Chalcolithic Caucasus, LBA Armenia and MBA Croatia. The Etruscans are a fascinating ancient culture which their origins have been debated for millennia, this paper offers clues to their genetic makeup.

Our Etruscan sample which dates from 700-600 BCE or 2700-2600 ybp

Sample R474 belongs to J2b-L283>CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

Judging from the date of CTS6190's TMRCA it is likely that all branches under CTS6190 owe their origins to an Etruscan one if the dates from Yfull are 100% accurate. The first ever Etruscan Y line discovered is a J2b-L283 branch. CTS6190 has been discussed quite a bit before its ancient sample has been discovered, and an Etruscan or Central Italian origin has been predicted, so this is confirmed.

Commented on this on our cohanim thread. There is a branch of Ashkenazi kohanim with a TMRCA of 200 CE, nested directly under CTS6190. We now can be reasonably confident that their origin is Etruscan/Roman/Central Italian. I just shared the news with a J2b-L283 kohen friend of mine.

Principe
12-05-2019, 06:29 PM
Before I continue on, I would like to thank Trojet and Pribislav for the help in making the Y calls, its a team effort and gives the best results :thumb:

Also a shout out to Michalis Moriopoulos for the autosomal breakdown of the various groups which will help determine the origins of at least the foreign born samples, the ones that cluster with Southern Italians and Greeks (aka East Med Continuum) will need further ancient samples from Greece, Southern Italy and Western Anatolian to further determine origins.

To start the foreign Middle Eastern Imperial samples

The Syro-Mesoptamian like sample dating from 100-300 AD or 1700-1900 ybp

R68 belongs to J2a-F3133>Y13534 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y13534/

In terms of adna other samples under Y13534 have been found predominately in Scythian groups and the dates are young enough that this branch could have been brought to Syro-Mesopomtamian area by the Persians or Medes, although this is jumping the gun as to date there are no ancient dna samples from Iraq nor Syria, so it will remain to be seen.

We then have the Pontic or for simplicity Eastern Anatolian like sample which dates from 50-200 CE or 1800-1950 ybp.

R1551 belongs to J2a-Z7671>Z30677 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z30677/

This is quite an old branch and considering downstreams have been found in other ancient dna samples, ultimately Z30677 would have its origins in the Early Bronze Age Caucasus, so its movement to the area of Southeastern Anatolian could have came from a various mix of groups, of course more Ancient dna from Anatolia would be great in the near future.

Then we have our Levantine sample which dates to 50 BCE-300 CE or 2050-1700 ybp

R1550 belongs to J2a-Y6240>Z6264* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6264/

I am glad for this result as I predicted a Levantine origin for this branch in the past and my prediction came true :) We'll have to wait and see if Z6264 is Syrian or Phoenician specific or it is native for both, odds are the latter.

Next up we have our Anatolian samples which are R44 and R76 which respectively date to 0-400 AD or 2000-1600 ybp and 0-200 CE or 2000-1800 ybp.

R44 belongs to J2a-Z6271 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6271/

So it is now our third ancient Z6271 sample to date and all three have an Anatolian origin, the other two were either Hattian or Hittite in origin, this sample also has some Greek ancestry so it is possible that R44 could have been Ionian or part Ionian in origin.

R76 belongs to J2a-Y47649* (PH1222) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y47649/

This sample appears to have an affinity with Southeastern Anatolia (possible Cilician origin) or roughly around the area, a Cypriot or Hellenistic Greek Syrian can be possible as well. PH1222 itself can be found in modern Armenia, Turkey, Greece (Pontic and other Greek populations), Southern Italy, Arabian Gulf and Austria. More ancient samples of PH1222 would be interesting to find out the ancestral origin of this interesting J2a branch.

Principe
12-05-2019, 07:15 PM
Now we have our Eastern Mediterranean cluster of J2's

The Eastern Mediterranean cluster of modern day includes the following populations which are Western Jews, Southern Italians, Maltese and most Greek groups. Depending on who is asked Cyprus may or may not be included in this grouping (like Y in the vowel system).

The exact origins of the Eastern Mediterranean cluster is still not 100% known to date, however there is a fair knowledge into what groups formed this cluster. The main three ancestral groups would be Southern European (Greek), Levantine and an Anatolian/Armenian as the foundation; with additional minor ancestral components coming from Central Europe, Eastern Europe, the Balkans and North Africa which are all relevant depending on which East Med population is looked at. This is a heavily debated topic on Anthrogenica and appears to be also catching the eye of the Scientific community.

Samples included in the J2 Eastern Mediterranean Cluster amongst the Imperial samples and Late Antiquity Samples include R81, R115, R34, R117, R136, and R50, the dates range from 100-900 CE or 1900-1100 ybp.

R81 belongs to J2a-Y15913 (SK1336) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15913/

This is a huge find since SK1336 is one of the 5 largest J2a branch found amongst Southern Italians, and it is interesting to see our first SK1336 sample found in ancient dna is already in the Eastern Mediterranean Cluster, further adna samples might help determine the ultimate origins of where this branch originates.

R115 belongs to J2a-M92>Z515>PH672* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH672/

Interesting find to see an M92>Z515 branch found in this Cluster.

R34 belongs to J2a2-L581* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L581*/

There is likely an undiscovered branch under L581 that has been fleshed out yet by modern samples.

R117 belongs to J2a-M319* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

J2a-M319 in ancient dna has been found in Minoan samples, M319 has always had a Greek origin attributed to it.

R136 belongs to J2a-L70>PF5456>Z40772* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z40772/

J2a-PF5456 and L70 in general is amongst one of the most interesting branches that exist in J2a because of its wide distribution, unfortunately to date this is the oldest PF5456 sample found and not much can be said about its origins, Iron Age samples under L70 will likely help determine the origin of the spread of L70 and its branches.

R50 belongs to J2b-M205>Y134194 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/

Not to much mystery surrounding M205 and its subsequent branches, as based on all other J2b-M205 ancient samples this J2 branch owes its origins to the Levant and is associated with Semitic speakers.

Principe
12-05-2019, 07:43 PM
Last up there is the Celtic or Western European like cluster which dates from 0-200 CE or 2000-1800 ybp

R116 belongs to J2b-L283>Z1295>Z631 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

The distribution of the downstreams of Z631 would highly suggest a Celtic origin for the branch so the result is not that surprising, in all likelihood Z631 may originate amongst Illyrian speakers in the Northwestern portion of the Balkans and could have entered the Halstatt population from an early date, ancient dna would be needed to confirm this.

The remaining J2 samples belong to the Medieval period and onwards so determining an origin is fairly impossible

R54 which dates to roughly 700 ybp (1300) belongs to J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y23094/

R1283 which dates to 750-950 AD or 1250-1050 ybp belongs to J2b-M205>PF7321* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF7321/ (direct paternal ancestry originally from the Levant 100%)

R970 which dates to 300-400 ybp (1600-1700) belongs to J2a-L70>Z435* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z435/

R1221 which dates to 500 ybp (1480-1490) belongs to J2a-L70>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC32147/

R969 which dates to 300-400 ybp (1600-1700) belongs to J2a-Y6240>PF7394* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF7394/

Agamemnon
12-05-2019, 11:25 PM
Now we have our Eastern Mediterranean cluster of J2's

The Eastern Mediterranean cluster of modern day includes the following populations which are Western Jews, Southern Italians, Maltese and most Greek groups. Depending on who is asked Cyprus may or may not be included in this grouping (like Y in the vowel system).

The exact origins of the Eastern Mediterranean cluster is still not 100% known to date, however there is a fair knowledge into what groups formed this cluster. The main three ancestral groups would be Southern European (Greek), Levantine and an Anatolian/Armenian as the foundation; with additional minor ancestral components coming from Central Europe, Eastern Europe, the Balkans and North Africa which are all relevant depending on which East Med population is looked at. This is a heavily debated topic on Anthrogenica and appears to be also catching the eye of the Scientific community.

Samples included in the J2 Eastern Mediterranean Cluster amongst the Imperial samples and Late Antiquity Samples include R81, R115, R34, R117, R136, and R50, the dates range from 100-900 CE or 1900-1100 ybp.

R81 belongs to J2a-Y15913 (SK1336) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15913/

This is a huge find since SK1336 is one of the 5 largest J2a branch found amongst Southern Italians, and it is interesting to see our first SK1336 sample found in ancient dna is already in the Eastern Mediterranean Cluster, further adna samples might help determine the ultimate origins of where this branch originates.

R115 belongs to J2a-M92>Z515>PH672* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH672/

Interesting find to see an M92>Z515 branch found in this Cluster.

R34 belongs to J2a2-L581* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L581*/

There is likely an undiscovered branch under L581 that has been fleshed out yet by modern samples.

R117 belongs to J2a-M319* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

J2a-M319 in ancient dna has been found in Minoan samples, M319 has always had a Greek origin attributed to it.

R136 belongs to J2a-L70>PF5456>Z40772* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z40772/

J2a-PF5456 and L70 in general is amongst one of the most interesting branches that exist in J2a because of its wide distribution, unfortunately to date this is the oldest PF5456 sample found and not much can be said about its origins, Iron Age samples under L70 will likely help determine the origin of the spread of L70 and its branches.

R50 belongs to J2b-M205>Y134194 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y134194/

Not to much mystery surrounding M205 and its subsequent branches, as based on all other J2b-M205 ancient samples this J2 branch owes its origins to the Levant and is associated with Semitic speakers.

Excellent post, I'd wager that SK1336 is potentially Greek in origin but only ancient data will allow us to confirm this (with some luck, this should be coming soon enough).

If you look at L70's tree after the recent update, I think it's quite clear that it originated in the Fertile Crescent, its age however does make an introduction with Kura-Araxes less likely than previously assumed (though still plausible I guess). Judging from the joint Portuguese-Tunisian branch under Z2177 and other similar branches that seem to have roots in the Levant, it's bound to track Phoenician settlement to some extent... Though here too, only Iron Age data can sort this one out, this result has muddied the waters so to speak!

Finally, regarding J2b1-M205: As you said, there is no mystery here, it is almost always found alongside J1-L862/Z2331 in the Near East and in contexts that tie it to early Semitic dispersals. Also notice how its TMRCA (previously around 6,000 yBP IIRC) came down to 5,700 yBP with the recent update on YFull, this is directly comparable to L862's TMRCA which is still around ~5,600 years old (and is very likely to come closer to 5,700 yBP as new results are added). Out of all the lineages under J2, M205 is the one that resembles J1-L862 the most.

Trojet
12-06-2019, 01:04 PM
Excellent posts Principe! Thanks for updating this thread.

J.delajara
12-06-2019, 01:53 PM
Last up there is the Celtic or Western European like cluster which dates from 0-200 CE or 2000-1800 ybp

R116 belongs to J2b-L283>Z1295>Z631 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

The distribution of the downstreams of Z631 would highly suggest a Celtic origin for the branch so the result is not that surprising, in all likelihood Z631 may originate amongst Illyrian speakers in the Northwestern portion of the Balkans and could have entered the Halstatt population from an early date, ancient dna would be needed to confirm this.

The remaining J2 samples belong to the Medieval period and onwards so determining an origin is fairly impossible

R54 which dates to roughly 700 ybp (1300) belongs to J2b-L283>Z1297>Y23094* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y23094/

R1283 which dates to 750-950 AD or 1250-1050 ybp belongs to J2b-M205>PF7321* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF7321/ (direct paternal ancestry originally from the Levant 100%)

R970 which dates to 300-400 ybp (1600-1700) belongs to J2a-L70>Z435* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z435/

R1221 which dates to 500 ybp (1480-1490) belongs to J2a-L70>Z2177>PH185>FGC32147 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC32147/

R969 which dates to 300-400 ybp (1600-1700) belongs to J2a-Y6240>PF7394* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF7394/

Thanks for your work Principe. It's very interesting for all of us.
regards

J.delajara
12-06-2019, 04:16 PM
Thanks for your interesting comments, Agamemnon. Regarding L-70 clades, I think the evidence we have so far, considering R136 sample of the Antonio paper (southern Italian admixture) and the paper made by A. Finocchio and published last year, regarding Phoenicians and Greek colonizations on the Mediterranean, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9 , I think at least PF5456 under CTS3601, should be southern Italian, and related to the greek colonization of Magna Graecia. The huge expansion of this clade could be explained by roman presence in Central Northern Europe, northern Africa and the Middle East. For sure we need to wait for further samples, although I think this Hypothesis has a good base. Regards

SUPREEEEEME
12-08-2019, 07:22 AM
Thanks for your interesting comments, Agamemnon. Regarding L-70 clades, I think the evidence we have so far, considering R136 sample of the Antonio paper (southern Italian admixture) and the paper made by A. Finocchio and published last year, regarding Phoenicians and Greek colonizations on the Mediterranean, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9 , I think at least PF5456 under CTS3601, should be southern Italian, and related to the greek colonization of Magna Graecia. The huge expansion of this clade could be explained by roman presence in Central Northern Europe, northern Africa and the Middle East. For sure we need to wait for further samples, although I think this Hypothesis has a good base. Regards

I'm not sure if I'd attribute it to Greek colonization, for example regarding Sicily:

J-L70 is found at high frequencies on the coast of West Sicily, while being rare on the Eastern coast and inland areas of the island.

"One of the more interesting subclades, referred to as J2a1k (DYS445=6) showed an interesting non-random distribution in Sicily. This subclade is also commonly referred to as J2a1h (ISOGG) or J2a-Lambda (J2 DNA Project). Most striking was differences in frequencies between Mazara Del Vallo and Sciacca. Mazara Del Vallo is a port city established by the Phoenicians in the 9th century B.C. while Sciacca, known as Thermae in Greek times, was founded in the 5th century B. C. by the Greeks. These 2 cities, founded by different groups are only 57 KM apart. Yet 11.11% of the Y chromosomes in Mazara del Vallo were J2 M172 with DYS 445=6 while this subclade was absent from the sample data from Sciacca. Trapani, another port city in Western Sicily also exhibited high levels of J2-M172 with DYS 445=6 at 9.09%. This subclade was absent from the inland cities of Santa Ninfa and Piazza Armerina and the northern Sicily town of Caccamo. The data seems to suggest that J2a1h (J2a1k)'s distribution is stronger in coastal regions of Western Sicily and more rare in inland and Eastern parts of the island. The sole exception to this trend was the data from Troina which did report 10% J2 M172 with DYS 445=6. Overall the non-random and high levels of J2 on the island of Sicily seem to reflect the complex history of the island and might represent multiple migrations by multiple groups over various periods of the islands history."

- http://m172.blogspot.com/2008/11/y-chromosomes-of-sicily.html?m=1

J.delajara
12-09-2019, 12:32 AM
I'm not sure if I'd attribute it to Greek colonization, for example regarding Sicily:

J-L70 is found at high frequencies on the coast of West Sicily, while being rare on the Eastern coast and inland areas of the island.

"One of the more interesting subclades, referred to as J2a1k (DYS445=6) showed an interesting non-random distribution in Sicily. This subclade is also commonly referred to as J2a1h (ISOGG) or J2a-Lambda (J2 DNA Project). Most striking was differences in frequencies between Mazara Del Vallo and Sciacca. Mazara Del Vallo is a port city established by the Phoenicians in the 9th century B.C. while Sciacca, known as Thermae in Greek times, was founded in the 5th century B. C. by the Greeks. These 2 cities, founded by different groups are only 57 KM apart. Yet 11.11% of the Y chromosomes in Mazara del Vallo were J2 M172 with DYS 445=6 while this subclade was absent from the sample data from Sciacca. Trapani, another port city in Western Sicily also exhibited high levels of J2-M172 with DYS 445=6 at 9.09%. This subclade was absent from the inland cities of Santa Ninfa and Piazza Armerina and the northern Sicily town of Caccamo. The data seems to suggest that J2a1h (J2a1k)'s distribution is stronger in coastal regions of Western Sicily and more rare in inland and Eastern parts of the island. The sole exception to this trend was the data from Troina which did report 10% J2 M172 with DYS 445=6. Overall the non-random and high levels of J2 on the island of Sicily seem to reflect the complex history of the island and might represent multiple migrations by multiple groups over various periods of the islands history."

- http://m172.blogspot.com/2008/11/y-chromosomes-of-sicily.html?m=1

Thanks for your comment Supreeeeeme. The Di Gaetano paper you quoted is from 2008, and considered only Sicily, were Phoenician settlements were small 'emporiums', not as big as greek colonies, so I don't think is conclusive, specially considering that Phoenicians didn't have colonies on southern Italy ( besides Western Sicily), were L-70 is abundant, specially its clade CTS3601. The Finocchio paper, from 2018, considered samples from different parts of the Mediterranean and had the chance to make an accurate analysis of ancient alleles considering Turkey, Greece and Italy, their conclusion regarding L-70 (J2a-L397) is the following:
"Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature. We resolved the J2a-L397 clade to an unprecedented precision, with three internal markers which allow a finer discrimination than STRs. The ages of the three lineages (2.0–3.0 kya) are compatible with the beginning of the Greek colonial period, in the 8th century BCE. The three subclades have different distributions (Fig. 2B), with two (branches 57, 59) found both East and West to Greece, and one only in Italy (branch 58). As to Mediterranean Islands, J2a-L397 was found in Cyprus56 and Crete43. Its presence as one of the three branches 57–59 will represent an important test. In Italy all three variants were found mainly along the Western coast (18/25), which hosted the preferred Greek trade cities. The finding of all three differentiated lineages in Locri excludes a local founder effect of a single genealogy. Interestingly, an important Greek colony was established in this location, with continuity of human settlement until modern times. The sample composed of the same subjects displayed genetic affinities with Eastern Greece and the Aegean also at autosomal markers57. In summary, the distributions of branches 57–59 mirror the variety of the cities of origin and geographic ranges during the phases of the colonization process58.".
For what explained above, I concluded from this paper, that the Anatolian Greek hypotesis, at least for CTS3601 (Branch 59 on the paper) and its subclades, is much solid than others, I'm sure further ancient samples analysis will help us to have a clearer picture. Regards.

J.delajara
12-09-2019, 01:12 AM
Another interesting point regarding the Di Gaetano paper, besides analyzing only DYS445=6, is to include DYS390=9, as part of the data to be consider, as the King paper does on the 2011 paper: https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69 ( the same as the already quoted Finocchio paper), regarding the Greek colonization in Provence and Corsica.
DYS 390=9, on the Di Gaetano paper is more common and widely distributed in the whole Sicily, on the contrary, DYS 390=10 has a more northern concentration, exclusively in cities like Trapani, who was one of the only cities on Western Sicily, that remained only Phoenician-Punic, and didn't pass to Greek control, like Mazzara del Vallo for example, and passed directly to roman rule only after the Punic wars on the III century BC.

Kelmendasi
12-28-2019, 11:35 PM
The only Y chromosome from any Etruscan samples in this paper is surprisingly a J2b-L283 branch which to date has been found in Chalcolithic Caucasus, LBA Armenia and MBA Croatia. The Etruscans are a fascinating ancient culture which their origins have been debated for millennia, this paper offers clues to their genetic makeup.

Our Etruscan sample which dates from 700-600 BCE or 2700-2600 ybp

Sample R474 belongs to J2b-L283>CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

Judging from the date of CTS6190's TMRCA it is likely that all branches under CTS6190 owe their origins to an Etruscan one if the dates from Yfull are 100% accurate. The first ever Etruscan Y line discovered is a J2b-L283 branch. CTS6190 has been discussed quite a bit before its ancient sample has been discovered, and an Etruscan or Central Italian origin has been predicted, so this is confirmed.
Trojet made a post on Eupedia that is relevant to this:

"New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic."

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34165-J2b2-L283-(proto-illyrian)/page19?p=593892#post593892

Beast
12-29-2019, 01:13 AM
The only Y chromosome from any Etruscan samples in this paper is surprisingly a J2b-L283 branch which to date has been found in Chalcolithic Caucasus, LBA Armenia and MBA Croatia. The Etruscans are a fascinating ancient culture which their origins have been debated for millennia, this paper offers clues to their genetic makeup.

Our Etruscan sample which dates from 700-600 BCE or 2700-2600 ybp

Sample R474 belongs to J2b-L283>CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

Judging from the date of CTS6190's TMRCA it is likely that all branches under CTS6190 owe their origins to an Etruscan one if the dates from Yfull are 100% accurate. The first ever Etruscan Y line discovered is a J2b-L283 branch. CTS6190 has been discussed quite a bit before its ancient sample has been discovered, and an Etruscan or Central Italian origin has been predicted, so this is confirmed.

This is very interesting because the Etruscan language has been linked to Albanian by many. And some other languages such as Armenian which has also been linked to Albanian.

Today's Tuscans also seem to show genetic similarity with Albanians to some extent.

ArmandoR1b
12-29-2019, 04:03 PM
Trojet made a post on Eupedia that is relevant to this:

"New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic."

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34165-J2b2-L283-(proto-illyrian)/page19?p=593892#post593892

My interest in this is a comparison of the 14C dating and the YFull estimate since I4331 (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2040790) is a sample that has high enough resolution that enough SNPs had coverage, due to petrous bone testing, to show it is in a subclade that has a YFull formed date and TMRCA date that are fairly close to each other (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp). The 14C dating is 1631-1521 calBCE. If the YFull dates are from the current year then they can also be expressed as formed 1881 BCE, TMRCA 1781 BCE. So at most the difference between the 14C dating and the YFull TMRCA estimate is 260 years. If I4331 is ancestral for Z38240 then the difference is 360 years since the formed and TMRCA would be the same for FT92472, 3900 ybp, and FT92472 would be upstream of Z38240. However, I assume that there is no coverage of Z38240 since there is no mention of it. Therefore the max possible difference should be 360 years.

Jack Johnson
01-01-2020, 09:05 AM
Good evening everyone and Happy New Year 2020. As of late I have been studying cases of Y-DNA haplogroup J2 in Europe before the classical age (pre-Phoenician). If I am missing any samples, or made any errors, I would appreciate some assistance. This is what I have turned up so far:

1. R19 Y-DNA: J2a-L26, mtDNA: U5b3a1. Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Italy, 5345-5221 BCE. Source: Antonio et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hH1c-vKI6kdkXRrPKiYmD3ICkDpMjaO_fixBA0iGAxo/edit#gid=0

2. I5068 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xS15572), originally reported as J2, mtDNA: T2b23, LBK Austria, 5500-4775 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et al&p=354282&viewfull=1#post354282

3. I5207 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xFGC61600,S15572), originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H67, LBK Austria, 5500-4500 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al&p=354318#post354318

4. I5078 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6055>SK1363(xZ36827,Y14435), originally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: H10, Sopot MN, Croatia, 5000-4800 BCE/4692-4546 BCE. Sources: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al&p=359864&viewfull=1#post359864

5. I1902/FEB3a Y-DNA: J2a-Z6055, originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H44b, Lengyel LN, Hungary, 4800-4500 BCE. Source: Lipson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1902/

6. I0070/Lasithi2 Y-DNA: J2a-M319*, originally reported as J2a-M319, mtDNA: H13a1a, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0070/

7. I0073/Lasithi7 Y-DNA: J2a-M319*, originally repoted as J2a(xab1b2cehi), mtDNA: H1bm, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0073/

8. I4331 Y-DNA: J2b-Z38240,FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225), originally reported as J2b2a-L283, mtDNA: I1a1, Croatia EMBA, 1700-1500 BCE/1631-1521 BCE. Sources: Mathieson et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

9. I9041/Galatas4 Y-DNA: J2a-L26(xM322,M92,M166,L210,M68,M339,P81,L24,L198), mtDNA: X2, Mycenaean Greece, 1700-1200 BCE. Source: Lazaridis et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i9041/

10. I1504/BR2/HUNG381 Y-DNA: J2a-Y17946*, orginally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: K1a1a, Kyjatice Culture, Hungary LBA, 1270-1110 BCE. Sources: Gamba et al. 2014, Mathieson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/

Trojet
01-06-2020, 02:10 PM
My interest in this is a comparison of the 14C dating and the YFull estimate since I4331 (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS2040790) is a sample that has high enough resolution that enough SNPs had coverage, due to petrous bone testing, to show it is in a subclade that has a YFull formed date and TMRCA date that are fairly close to each other (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp). The 14C dating is 1631-1521 calBCE. If the YFull dates are from the current year then they can also be expressed as formed 1881 BCE, TMRCA 1781 BCE. So at most the difference between the 14C dating and the YFull TMRCA estimate is 260 years. If I4331 is ancestral for Z38240 then the difference is 360 years since the formed and TMRCA would be the same for FT92472, 3900 ybp, and FT92472 would be upstream of Z38240. However, I assume that there is no coverage of Z38240 since there is no mention of it. Therefore the max possible difference should be 360 years.

Yeah, I4331 has no reads for Z38240. But I suspect he is positive for it as well, considering the positive call for the equivalent FT92472 and lived 200-300 years after the formation of these SNPs.

Trojet
01-06-2020, 02:37 PM
The only Y chromosome from any Etruscan samples in this paper is surprisingly a J2b-L283 branch which to date has been found in Chalcolithic Caucasus, LBA Armenia and MBA Croatia. The Etruscans are a fascinating ancient culture which their origins have been debated for millennia, this paper offers clues to their genetic makeup.

Our Etruscan sample which dates from 700-600 BCE or 2700-2600 ybp

Sample R474 belongs to J2b-L283>CTS6190 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/

Judging from the date of CTS6190's TMRCA it is likely that all branches under CTS6190 owe their origins to an Etruscan one if the dates from Yfull are 100% accurate. The first ever Etruscan Y line discovered is a J2b-L283 branch. CTS6190 has been discussed quite a bit before its ancient sample has been discovered, and an Etruscan or Central Italian origin has been predicted, so this is confirmed.

A minor correction here :) If you're speaking of KDC001.A0101, Kudachurt, North Caucasus J-L283* sample, he comes from ~3900 ybp, so that would be Bronze Age.

BTW, the new Armenian J-L283* on YFull is negative for ~7 J-L283 SNPs (Z622, Z577 and a few more), so he splits the current J-L283 node at ~6000 ybp. This means the European branches, J-YP91 and J-Z600 will fall below J-L283>Z622,Z577 with a TMRCA of ~5500 ybp. The MBA sample from North Caucuses unfortunately has no reads for Z622, Z577, etc. I think this ancient sample likely represents some remnant who stayed behind before J-L283>Z622,Z577 migrated to Balkans/Europe and likely around northern shores of the Black Sea, but this would've been ~1500 years before this sample lived considering the TMRCA of the European branches.

rafc
01-06-2020, 04:38 PM
Also interesting to see the Albanian YP29 appear on Yfull, but the age calculations for YP29 and subclades should improve a lot with the next update, now they are only based on 1 sample and seem far too young.

Trojet
01-06-2020, 05:10 PM
Also interesting to see the Albanian YP29 appear on Yfull, but the age calculations for YP29 and subclades should improve a lot with the next update, now they are only based on 1 sample and seem far too young.

Yes, the whole J-YP91 TMRCA is currently being estimated by a single sample. I would guess the J-YP91 TMRCA to be around 5000 ybp (close to its brother J-Z600), and the downstream J-YP29 probably around 3000 ybp, currently made up of an Albanian, Sardinian, and an American. So we have another Albanian - Sardinian connection here :)

Jack Johnson
01-10-2020, 07:21 AM
Here's a little update folks based on some recent posts on this forum. I will also link this great online resource for ancient J2 samples: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/. Well here's the slightly altered list:

1. R19 Y-DNA: J2a-S11842*, originally reported as J2a-L26, mtDNA: U5b3a1. Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, 5345-5221 BCE. Sources: Antonio et al. 2019, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hH1c-vKI6kdkXRrPKiYmD3ICkDpMjaO_fixBA0iGAxo/edit#gid=0. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=628211&viewfull=1#post628211

2. R17 Y-DNA: J2a-PreY29673, originally reported as J-M304, mtDNA: U8b1b, Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, 5324-5223 BCE. Sources: Antonio et al. 2019, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hH1c-vKI6kdkXRrPKiYmD3ICkDpMjaO_fixBA0iGAxo/edit#gid=0. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=628211&viewfull=1#post628211

3. I5068 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xS15572), originally reported as J2, mtDNA: T2b23, LBK Austria, 5500-4775 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al&p=354282&viewfull=1#post354282

4. I5207 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xFGC61600,S15572), originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H67, LBK Austria, 5500-4500 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al&p=354318#post354318

5. I5078 Y-DNA: J2a-SK1363(xZ36827,Y14435), originally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: H10, Sopot MN, Croatia, 5000-4800 BCE/4692-4546 BCE. Sources: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al&p=359864&viewfull=1#post359864

6. I1902/FEB3a Y-DNA: J2a-Z6055, originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H44b, Lengyel LN, Hungary, 4800-4500 BCE. Source: Lipson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1902/

7. I0070/Lasithi2 Y-DNA: J2a-S17259*, originally reported as J2a-M319, mtDNA: H13a1a, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0070/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=562822&viewfull=1#post562822

8. I0073/Lasithi7 Y-DNA: J2a-S17259*, originally repoted as J2a(xab1b2cehi), mtDNA: H1bm, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0073/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=562822&viewfull=1#post562822

9. I4331 Y-DNA: J2b-FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225), originally reported as J2b2a-L283, mtDNA: I1a1, Croatia EMBA, 1700-1500 BCE/1631-1521 BCE. Sources: Mathieson et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

10. I9041/Galatas4 Y-DNA: J2a-L26(xM322,M92,M166,L210,M68,M339,P81,L24,L198), mtDNA: X2, Mycenaean Greece, 1700-1200 BCE. Source: Lazaridis et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i9041/

11. I1504/BR2/HUNG381 Y-DNA: J2a-Y17946*, orginally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: K1a1a, Kyjatice Culture, Hungary LBA, 1270-1110 BCE. Sources: Gamba et al. 2014, Mathieson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/

Principe
01-10-2020, 06:17 PM
Everybody there is an update on the 2 Minoan samples I0070 and I0073, thanks to the new updated of Yfull they can be placed into the new branch under S17259.

Both I0070 and I0073 belong to J2a-M319>S17259>Y92462>Y151557 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y151557/

Principe
01-12-2020, 06:03 PM
Well there is some updates from the Marcus et al. Sardinia paper as we have 3 new J2b-L283 samples coming from the Nuragic Culture. The Nuragic Culture was the MLBA-LBA culture of Sardinia and an interesting one at the most. For further simple overview of the Nuragic Culture the wiki page will follow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuragic_civilization

The following samples are

ORC003 dating from 3350-3150 ybp or 1350-1150 BC, which belongs to J2b-L283>Z627>YP157 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP157/

ORC007 dating from 3300-3100 ybp or 1300-1100 BC, which belongs to J2b-L283>YP91 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP91/

ORC008 dating from 3200-3000 ybp or 1200-1000 BC, which belongs to J2b-L283>Z600* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/

In terms of how it got there and its relation to other L283 branches it would be hard to say with certainty, however since there was no J2b-L283 in the Neolithic, Chalcolithic nor Early Bronze Age Sardinia, at the moment it would be safe to hypothesize a Middle Bronze Age migration into Sardinia, since these are old branches and the oldest known L283 is coming from the Caucasus it's migration into Sardinia might look like Caucasus>Balkans>Sardinia similar to how branches under Z597 migrated into the Balkans with I-E populations.

Trojet
01-12-2020, 06:30 PM
Well there is some updates from the Marcus et al. Sardinia paper as we have 3 new J2b-L283 samples coming from the Nuragic Culture. The Nuragic Culture was the MLBA-LBA culture of Sardinia and an interesting one at the most. For further simple overview of the Nuragic Culture the wiki page will follow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuragic_civilization

The following samples are

ORC003 dating from 3350-3150 ybp or 1350-1150 BC, which belongs to J2b-L283>Z627>YP157 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP157/

ORC007 dating from 3300-3100 ybp or 1300-1100 BC, which belongs to J2b-L283>YP91 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP91/

ORC008 dating from 3200-3000 ybp or 1200-1000 BC, which belongs to J2b-L283>Z600* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/

In terms of how it got there and its relation to other L283 branches it would be hard to say with certainty, however since there was no J2b-L283 in the Neolithic, Chalcolithic nor Early Bronze Age at the moment it would be safe to hypothesize a Middle Bronze Age migration, since these are old branches and the oldest known L283 is coming from the Caucasus it's migration into Sardinia might look like Caucasus>Balkans>Sardinia similar to how branches under Z597 migrated into the Balkans with I-E populations.

My prediction is J2b-L283 was in the Balkans since Early Bronze Age. The J-Z597 branch (formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybp) gives us a good indication as is has a clear Balkan/European structure. And the two upstream J-Z615* samples are also well within European territory. The MBA North Caucasus was negative for Z627 and YP91, and he might well represent the same split as the new Armenian on YFull (Z577- Z622-), however, I couldn't find any shared SNPs between them. So the European branches have no connection for at least 5500 years to these samples from the Caucasus region.

Principe
01-12-2020, 06:47 PM
My prediction is J-L283 was in the Balkans since Early Bronze Age. The J-Z597 branch (formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4400 ybp) gives us a good indication as is has a clear Balkan/European structure. And the two upstream J-Z615* samples are also well within European territory. The MBA North Caucasus was negative for Z627 and YP91, and he might well represent the same split as the new Armenian on YFull, however, I couldn't find any shared SNPs between them. So the European branches have no connection for at least ~5500 years to these samples from Transcaucasia.

Thanks for chiming in Trojet, was hoping you were going to write, I see you as the expert on L283. I should also mention that the Middle Bronze Age migration was specific to Sardinia. I edited my post so that it shows I meant Sardinia.

Trojet
01-12-2020, 07:18 PM
Thanks for chiming in Trojet, was hoping you were going to write, I see you as the expert on L283. I should also mention that the Middle Bronze Age migration was specific to Sardinia. I edited my post so that it shows I meant Sardinia.

Thanks for the clarification/edit :) as I thought you meant L283 itself migrated into Balkans/Europe during MBA.

Principe
01-12-2020, 07:35 PM
Thanks for the clarification/edit :) as I thought you meant L283 itself migrated into Balkans/Europe during MBA.

My pleasure :D

Jack Johnson
01-14-2020, 07:46 AM
Do you have any calls from Fernandes et al 2019? I know there were some Nuragic BA and Sicilian EBA samples in that paper. Though checking the supplementary material, there was unfortunately, contamination in some of the samples deemed to belong to Y-DNA J. Hopefully these individuals can be retested like Cheddar Man. The samples I am specifically talking about are I10553/S10553.E1 (Sardinia Nuragic BA, 1226-1056 calBCE), Y-DNA J2b2a, mtDNA J1c2, I7772 (Sicily EBA_lowcov, 3000-1600 BCE), Y-DNA J, mtDNA T2, and I7796 (Sicily EBA, 3000-1600 BCE), Y-DNA J, mtDNA H. There are a few others on the supplementary file, labeled as contaminated but still retain the J designation, one of them even being J2a1. Any further insights would be appreciated. Link to the supplementary data table from the paper:https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/03/21/584714/DC2/embed/media-2.xlsx?download=true

Principe
01-14-2020, 04:37 PM
Do you have any calls from Fernandes et al 2019? I know there were some Nuragic BA and Sicilian EBA samples in that paper. Though checking the supplementary material, there was unfortunately, contamination in some of the samples deemed to belong to Y-DNA J. Hopefully these individuals can be retested like Cheddar Man. The samples I am specifically talking about are I10553/S10553.E1 (Sardinia Nuragic BA, 1226-1056 calBCE), Y-DNA J2b2a, mtDNA J1c2, I7772 (Sicily EBA_lowcov, 3000-1600 BCE), Y-DNA J, mtDNA T2, and I7796 (Sicily EBA, 3000-1600 BCE), Y-DNA J, mtDNA H. There are a few others on the supplementary file, labeled as contaminated but still retain the J designation, one of them even being J2a1. Any further insights would be appreciated. Link to the supplementary data table from the paper:https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/03/21/584714/DC2/embed/media-2.xlsx?download=true

The raw data hasn’t been released yet, when it is the J2 samples will be analyzed.

Jack Johnson
01-20-2020, 07:14 PM
Thanks to Principe, I have now updated my original post. The Mycenaean sample is now J2a-Z6057. There have been a few other slight changes as well:

1. R17 Y-DNA: J2a-PreY29673, originally reported as J-M304, mtDNA: U8b1b, Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, 5324-5223 BCE. Sources: Antonio et al. 2019, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hH1c-vKI6kdkXRrPKiYmD3ICkDpMjaO_fixBA0iGAxo/edit#gid=0. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=628211&viewfull=1#post628211

2. R19 Y-DNA: J2a-S11842*, originally reported as J2a-L26, mtDNA: U5b3a1, Neolithic, Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, 5345-5221 BCE. Sources: Antonio et al. 2019, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hH1c-vKI6kdkXRrPKiYmD3ICkDpMjaO_fixBA0iGAxo/edit#gid=0. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=628211&viewfull=1#post628211

3. I5068 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xS15572), originally reported as J2, mtDNA: T2b23, LBK Austria, 5500-4775 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al&p=354282&viewfull=1#post354282

4. I5207 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6048(xFGC61600,S15572), originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H67, LBK Austria, 5500-4500 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al&p=354318#post354318

5. I5078 Y-DNA: J2a-SK1363(xZ36827,Y14435), originally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: H10, Sopot MN, Croatia, 5000-4800 BCE/4692-4546 BCE. Source: Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10564-The-Genomic-History-of-Southeastern-Europe-Mathieson-Reich-et-al&p=359864&viewfull=1#post359864

6. I1902/FEB3a Y-DNA: J2a-Z6055, originally reported as J2a, mtDNA: H44b, Lengyel LN, Hungary, 4800-4500 BCE. Source: Lipson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1902/

7. I0070/Lasithi2 Y-DNA: J2a-Y151557, originally reported as J2a-M319, mtDNA: H13a1a, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0070/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=636750&viewfull=1#post636750

8. I0073/Lasithi7 Y-DNA: J2a-Y151557, originally repoted as J2a1(xab1ab2cehi), mtDNA: H1bm, Minoan Lasithi, Greece, 2400-1700 BCE/2000-1700 BCE. Sources: Lazaridis et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0073/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=636750&viewfull=1#post636750

9. I4331 Y-DNA: J2b-FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225), originally reported as J2b2a-L283, mtDNA: I1a1, Croatia EMBA, 1700-1500 BCE/1631-1521 BCE. Sources: Mathieson et al. 2017, Mathieson et al. 2018. Raw data check: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

10. I9041/Galatas4 Y-DNA: J2a-Z6057, originally reported as J2a1(xab1b2ceghi), mtDNA: X2, Mycenaean Greece, 1700-1200 BCE. Source: Lazaridis et al. 2017. Raw data checks: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i9041/, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=531745&viewfull=1#post531745

11. ORC003 Y-DNA: J2b-YP157, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: K1a4a1, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1369-1128 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=637286&viewfull=1#post637286

12. ORC007 Y-DNA: J2b-YP91, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: H1e1a, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1285-1127 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=637286&viewfull=1#post637286

13. I1504/BR2/HUNG381 Y-DNA: J2a-Y17946*, originally reported as J2a1, mtDNA: K1a1a, Kyjatice Culture, Hungary LBA, 1270-1110 BCE. Sources: Gamba et al. 2014, Mathieson et al. 2017. Raw data check: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/

14. ORC008 Y-DNA: J2b-Z600*, originally reported as J2b2a1, mtDNA: H1, Nuragic Culture, Sardinia, Italy, 1191-999 BCE. Source: Marcus et al. 2019. Raw data check: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2&p=637286&viewfull=1#post637286

Dorkymon
01-28-2020, 03:03 PM
Do we know which cultures spread J-M67 to Europe? I know that at least some of the M67 in Europe was determined as a founder lineage of non-Indian origin in Roma, so they picked it up somewhere. But which culture spread it before them?

"Three non-Indian lineages (I-P259, J-M92, and J-M67) were defined as founders. The founder lineages J-M92 and J-M67 are present in both Roma and hosts, as well as in the populations found in the Roma migration way out-of-India." Source (https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201)

And by migration way populations, they refer to those primarily in Caucasus and Turkey, quoting this study from below.

"The J-M67*, J-M92, and J-M102 representatives reflect more distinctive origins and dispersal patterns. Whereas J-M67* and J-M92 show higher frequencies and variances in Europe (0.40 and 0.32, respectively) and in Turkey (0.32 and 0.30, respectively than in the Middle East (0.17 and 0.09, respectively), J-M102 shows its maximum frequency in the Balkans.

J-M67* and J-M92 could have arrived in Europe from Anatolia via the Bosphorus isthmus, as well as by seafaring Neolithic populations who reached southern Italy. J-M67* and J-M92 could represent, at least in part, the Y-chromosome component that found to correlate with the distribution, from Anatolia toward Europe, of archaeological painted pottery and anthropomorphic figurines.
On the other hand, J-M67– and J-M102–related lineages have been observed in Pakistan and India; thus, they probably have marked other migratory events." Source (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/)


The supplementary data from Finnochio et al., 2018 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/) suggests that J-M67+ is quite popular around Greece, Italy and Turkey.

https://i.imgur.com/udtpzXk.png

Principe
01-28-2020, 03:39 PM
Do we know which cultures spread J-M67 to Europe? I know that at least some of the M67 in Europe was determined as a founder lineage of non-Indian origin in Roma, so they picked it up somewhere. But which culture spread it before them?

"Three non-Indian lineages (I-P259, J-M92, and J-M67) were defined as founders. The founder lineages J-M92 and J-M67 are present in both Roma and hosts, as well as in the populations found in the Roma migration way out-of-India." Source (https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015201)

And by migration way populations, they refer to those primarily in Caucasus and Turkey, quoting this study from below.

"The J-M67*, J-M92, and J-M102 representatives reflect more distinctive origins and dispersal patterns. Whereas J-M67* and J-M92 show higher frequencies and variances in Europe (0.40 and 0.32, respectively) and in Turkey (0.32 and 0.30, respectively than in the Middle East (0.17 and 0.09, respectively), J-M102 shows its maximum frequency in the Balkans.

J-M67* and J-M92 could have arrived in Europe from Anatolia via the Bosphorus isthmus, as well as by seafaring Neolithic populations who reached southern Italy. J-M67* and J-M92 could represent, at least in part, the Y-chromosome component that found to correlate with the distribution, from Anatolia toward Europe, of archaeological painted pottery and anthropomorphic figurines.
On the other hand, J-M67– and J-M102–related lineages have been observed in Pakistan and India; thus, they probably have marked other migratory events." Source (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/)


The supplementary data from Finnochio et al., 2018 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/) suggests that J-M67+ is quite popular around Greece, Italy and Turkey.

https://i.imgur.com/udtpzXk.png

Well M67 itself is quite diverse, so not 1 culture introduced M67 branches, in the case of ancient dna we have one S11842* in Neolithic Italy, although we don’t know if any descendant branches exist. Along the S11842 branch we have Z6271 which has been found in Bronze Age Anatolia, and 1 Imperial Roman of Anatolian origin (according to Autosomal dna), so in the case of the Z6271 branch Bronze Age and Iron Age Anatolian migrations. The BR2 individual belongs to Z7671>Y17946* although its LBA its parent clade has been found in Maykop Culture, might of accompanied J2b-L283 into the Balkans around EBA. All other branches discovered are quite young, so we need more ancient samples to sort out this information.

sheepslayer
01-28-2020, 03:56 PM
Well M67 itself is quite diverse, so not 1 culture introduced M67 branches, in the case of ancient dna we have one S11842* in Neolithic Italy, although we don’t know if any descendant branches exist. Along the S11842 branch we have Z6271 which has been found in Bronze Age Anatolia, and 1 Imperial Roman of Anatolian origin (according to Autosomal dna), so in the case of the Z6271 branch Bronze Age and Iron Age Anatolian migrations. The BR2 individual belongs to Z7671>Y17946* although its LBA its parent clade has been found in Maykop Culture, might of accompanied J2b-L283 into the Balkans around EBA. All other branches discovered are quite young, so we need more ancient samples to sort out this information.

Maykop culture was a facet of the greater goings on in the Transcaucasian area, which most Z7671+ individuals have ties to. I think people from that branch brought the Neolithic past those mountains, and they scattered around the Black Sea during the Bronze Age, judging from all the Pontics (Rome paper), Arabs, and Hebrew lineages we encounter amid the Nakh the further we go downstream. The prevalence of the Nakh in M67 is brought to you by these branches, and I feel like this may enlighten some discussion about "nouthern/southern routes," etc. in the future ;)

J Man
02-06-2020, 01:02 AM
Now to BMAC, which cannot be stressed how significant this culture was and its role in the Bronze Age Silk road, the BMAC samples come from the sites of Bustan, Gonur Tepe and Sappali Tepe. The total number of samples in 11. BMAC has been mentioned here before, if readers want to go back and check it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

1. I11028, which dates to 5100 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Y15604>PreY17404 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y17404/

2. I1792, which dates to 4300 ybp, from Gonur, and belongs to J2a-L24>Y22662 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22662/

3. I10411, which dates to 4200 ybp, from Gonur, and belongs to J2a2-PF4993>PreP279 https://yfull.com/tree/J-P279/

4. I2128, which dates to 4100 ybp, from Gonur, and belongs to J2a-F3133 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/ (Probably a lower quality sample)

5. I7494, which dates to 3900 ybp, from Sappali, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Z7706>L192 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L192/

6. I7421, which dates to 3800 ybp, from Sappali, and belongs to J2a2-PF5008* https://yfull.com/tree/J-PF5008/

7. I11027, which dates to 3500 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Z7661* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z7661/

8. I4899, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-M410 (low quality sample)

9. I4157, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2b-Z2432 (low quality) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

10. I4159, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-PF5172>PF5177>PF5252 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5252/

11. I4794, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Aktobe, Kazashkstan, sample is part of Steppe BMAC, and belongs to J2a-F3133 (low quality sample) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-F3133/

We also have a sample from Aigyrzhal, Kyrgyzstan which has the same Y line as the oldest sample from Bustan dating to the Chalcolithic so pre BMAC.

12. I11527, which dates to 4000 ybp, from Aigyrzhal, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Y15604>PreY17404 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y17404/

UZB_Bustan_En:I11028 is the same as this sample below correct?

I11028, which dates to 5100 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Y15604>PreY17404 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y17404/

Principe
02-08-2020, 01:48 PM
UZB_Bustan_En:I11028 is the same as this sample below correct?

I11028, which dates to 5100 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2a-F3133>Y15604>PreY17404 https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y17404/

I believe so yes!

Jack Johnson
03-07-2020, 07:38 AM
Are there any more specifics on the reported J2 samples from Bronze Age Sicily such as I7796 (Early Bronze Age, 1879-1691 calBCE)?

Principe
03-07-2020, 05:31 PM
I7796, Contrada Paolina, Castelluccio Culture, 1900-1700 BC or 3900-3700 ybp, is J2a-PF5160 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5160/

Unfortunately the sample is of low quality and cannot go past PF5160, seems to be negative for L24 and all branches, lots of no calls for branches PF5197. Just want to say I called it that Castelluccio culture would have J2a and it makes sense as this culture represents a migration from Western Anatolia to Sicily and Malta. Perhaps when better quality samples come out we can see specific clades under PF5160.

There is a guaranteed movement of J2 into Sicily during the Early-Middle Bronze Age, hopefully more samples to come

J Man
03-07-2020, 09:17 PM
I7796, Contrada Paolina, Castelluccio Culture, 1900-1700 BC or 3900-3700 ybp, is J2a-PF5160 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5160/

Unfortunately the sample is of low quality and cannot go past PF5160, seems to be negative for L24 and all branches, lots of no calls for branches PF5197. Just want to say I called it that Castelluccio culture would have J2a and it makes sense as this culture represents a migration from Western Anatolia to Sicily and Malta. Perhaps when better quality samples come out we can see specific clades under PF5160.

There is a guaranteed movement of J2 into Sicily during the Early-Middle Bronze Age, hopefully more samples to come

Is this sample part of any defined archaeological culture?

Principe
03-07-2020, 10:09 PM
Is this sample part of any defined archaeological culture?

Yeah the Castelluccio Culture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castelluccio_culture

J Man
03-08-2020, 05:30 AM
Yeah the Castelluccio Culture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castelluccio_culture

Stupid me I should have seen that in your first post.

Pribislav
03-15-2020, 02:27 PM
It seems Yfull started adding 1240K sequenced ancient samples to their tree:

J2b2-BY22519 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY22519/)

The sample in question is I4349, but their methodology doesn't seem right to me. Looking at their tree people would assume this sample has 70+ derived SNPs at BY22519 level, when in fact it has only 9, with the rest of them not being covered. IMO it makes more sense to leave not covered SNPs at the level below (Y150492).


Both I4349 and I4241 are Z1825>Z2453>Y18039>Y31143>pre-BY22519 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY22519/). They have 9 and 6 derived SNPs at this level, respectively.

I4349:

BY22522 C>A (1 read)

BY22530 C>A (5 reads)

Y128853 C>A (1 read)

BY22545 G>A (1 read)

BY22546 T>C (1 read)

BY22549 T>G (5 reads)

Y126076/FT22761 T>C (2 reads)

BY22578 C>T (5 reads)

BY22585 C>T (1 read)


I4241:

Y83764 A>T (1 read)

BY22555 A>G (1 read)

BY22522 C>A (1 read)

Y128853 C>A (2 reads)

BY22549 T>G (1 read)

BY22578 C>T (1 read)

Jack Johnson
03-15-2020, 08:13 PM
Interesting thank you. May I ask where I can locate the data on these samples?

Jack Johnson
04-10-2020, 03:12 AM
Interesting finds indeed, is there any new info out there concerning ancient European J2? I have seen more J2b samples from Nuragic Sardinia, there is also those J2s (J2a's?) from Bronze Age Sicily correct?

Principe
05-09-2020, 08:18 PM
Alright so there is some updates on 2 samples from the Ancient Roman paper they are on R34 and R117,

R34 was previously reported as J-L581* and R117 was previously reported as J-M319*

This is exactly how it was reported on page 8 of this thread by me

R34 belongs to J2a2-L581* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L581*/

There is likely an undiscovered branch under L581 that has been fleshed out yet by modern samples.

R117 belongs to J2a-M319* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

J2a-M319 in ancient dna has been found in Minoan samples, M319 has always had a Greek origin attributed to it.

Now the updates

R34 belongs to J2a2-P279>PreY36973 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y36973/

R117 belongs to J2a-M319>Y151557 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y151557/

Interesting to note that R117 belongs to the same branch as the Minoans, and in this paper has a genetic profile of the Eastern Mediterranean cluster, at this point J-M319>Y151557 can be safely placed as a Greek lineage

Sorcelow
05-19-2020, 10:56 PM
The large Iberian paper was quite informative producing 9 J samples of which 5 were identified as J2a.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_0.pdf

These samples are somewhat special to me since these are the first samples that I analyzed myself, sadly three of the five J2a are not of great quality so downstreams were not able to be determined. The Greek Empurias samples I8202, I8205 and I8216 could not produce anything further than J as well as sample I8145.

Samples I12514 and I12515 belong to J2a-L26>PF4610>PF5119>L558>M319>Y16819, I12514 and I12514 are estimated to be alive between 900-1150 ybp and are listed as Muslim from Palau Castell de Betxi in Valencia. These samples are very likely to be directly related to a Middle Eastern Arab branch because Y16819 is an extremely rare branch of M319 and is the only M319 which seems to have a Middle Eastern origin, of course the sample is roughly 1000 years old and it belonging to an earlier wave can be excluded.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16819/

Sadly I3983 and I4054 are only positive until the Z1847 branch, Z1847 includes large branches like Z467, Z500 and Z7671 and these samples surely belong to a downstream but because of the quality it is impossible to know. Judging from the autosomal profile and the location of where they are from these samples they very likely represent a branch brought by the Phoenicians or their offshoot the Carthaginians.

The last J2a sample would be I12162 which was a Visigoth, that itself is fascinating and might somehow be related to the J2a seen in the Ostrogoth sample from the Crimea, though unfortunately sample I12162 is a very poor quality and seems to be negative for every branch under J2a which is impossible, so due to low coverage I was unable to accurately determine a J2a branch.

Wow, I wasn't aware of these samples, I am also Y16819. I am listed in Y full as the sample from Greece. I am separated from two individuals from Arabia by roughly 4,300 years, which leads me to believe that our lineages probably split somewhere around the Syrian region, with one branch going west and the other going east. Would love to get your further thoughts on this branch.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

There are also four more individuals who are on the M319 FTDNA project who have not tested with Yfull, but are likely Y16819. Two are from the USA with origins from Germany, one is from Spain, and the last one is from Sicily.

Principe
05-20-2020, 07:54 PM
Wow, I wasn't aware of these samples, I am also Y16819. I am listed in Y full as the sample from Greece. I am separated from two individuals from Arabia by roughly 4,300 years, which leads me to believe that our lineages probably split somewhere around the Syrian region, with one branch going west and the other going east. Would love to get your further thoughts on this branch.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

There are also four more individuals who are on the M319 FTDNA project who have not tested with Yfull, but are likely Y16819. Two are from the USA with origins from Germany, one is from Spain, and the last one is from Sicily.

Sorcelow thank you, unfortunately these samples were analyzed by me when I had just learnt how to analyze BAM files, I relooked at them now and they are not Y16819, they belong under a different branch under M319. As for your particular Y16819 branch it is hard to know, seeing from the other thread you trace your paternal ancestry from the Peloponnese, Greece is extremely undertested, so it is possible that your branch is quite common, in general M319 has a good diversity in Greece, as with the three other M319>Y151557 which would be ancient Greek via Minoan, I had the privilege of being taught in university by one of the leading archaeologists on Minoan Crete, for the Y151557 the Late Bronze Age Anatolian migration makes sense (would work for the Cycladic Civilization as well), for other branches it could be the same story, or there could be a Neolithic origin as well as some J2a did appear to enter during this period. J-M319 is 11 000 years old, so I would fully expect each of the 5 branches to have different ancient migratory path.

Principe
05-20-2020, 07:59 PM
As noted I12514 and I12515 have been re analyzed and belong to another M319 branch.

I12514,Palau Castell de Betxi, Valencia, 950-1150 CE, belongs to J2a-M319>Y21862* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21862/

I12515,Palau Castell de Betxi, Valencia, 950-1150 CE, belongs to J2a-M319>Y21862* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21862/

J Man
06-14-2020, 04:30 PM
It is interesting to note that so far ancient Semitic samples do not seem to have much J2a among them at all. There is some but not nearly as much as I thought there would be.

PureNonsense
06-22-2020, 03:50 PM
Please see this map of the path of J2a-SK1363:
38110
Note that SNP Tracker puts the lineage J2a-SK1363 in Eastern Italy, before the neolithic farmer expansion (ca. 11,000 BCE). Then there is the J2a-SK1363 sample #I5078 (Sopot_MN; dated ca. 4619 BCE), and discussed previously in this thread. I raise the question of how to interpret these two data? What is the connection between the early NL Eastern Italy SK1363 and the late NL Balkan SK1363? Are these simply two different migratory patterns or did the earlier occurrence lead to the later one?

Principe
06-22-2020, 04:07 PM
It is interesting to note that so far ancient Semitic samples do not seem to have much J2a among them at all. There is some but not nearly as much as I thought there would be.

We will have to wait for ancient samples, odds are there will be more as more sites become tested, but J2a is more associated with Near Eastern cultures that weren’t Semitic speakers like the Hurrians, Hattians, etc... they were on the periphery so we’ll wait.

Principe
06-22-2020, 04:13 PM
Please see this map of the path of J2a-SK1363:
38110
Note that SNP Tracker puts the lineage J2a-SK1363 in Eastern Italy, before the neolithic farmer expansion (ca. 11,000 BCE). Then there is the J2a-SK1363 sample #I5078 (Sopot_MN; dated ca. 4619 BCE), and discussed previously in this thread. I raise the question of how to interpret these two data? What is the connection between the early NL Eastern Italy SK1363 and the late NL Balkan SK1363? Are these simply two different migratory patterns or did the earlier occurrence lead to the later one?

J-SK1363/Y13128 was not in Eastern Italy before Neolithic, snp tracker is an algorithm mostly based off modern samples which won’t give the most accurate migratory path. J-SK1363 was born somewhere in the Middle East about 8400 ybp as seen as the basal Saudi at J-Z36834, it came into Europe with the Neolithic wave that had Iran Neo admix, that we see in Krepost, Bulgaria and Neolithic Peloponnese, as well as Monterotondo in Italy. The Cardial Ware or Impressed ware, the Sopot sample was likely initially from these areas, as Sopot neighboured it.

J Man
06-22-2020, 04:43 PM
J-SK1363/Y13128 was not in Eastern Italy before Neolithic, snp tracker is an algorithm mostly based off modern samples which won’t give the most accurate migratory path. J-SK1363 was born somewhere in the Middle East about 8400 ybp as seen as the basal Saudi at J-Z36834, it came into Europe with the Neolithic wave that had Iran Neo admix, that we see in Krepost, Bulgaria and Neolithic Peloponnese, as well as Monterotondo in Italy. The Cardial Ware or Impressed ware, the Sopot sample was likely initially from these areas, as Sopot neighboured it.

Interesting to note that there are a few J2a samples from the LBK culture in Austria as well.

Principe
06-22-2020, 05:31 PM
Interesting to note that there are a few J2a samples from the LBK culture in Austria as well.

Those are related to another wave, it is under Z6048, the same branch has also been found in Neolithic Barcin, J-Z6048 coincides with G-PF3148, both were also found in Mesolithic Caucasus.

J Man
06-22-2020, 06:39 PM
Those are related to another wave, it is under Z6048, the same branch has also been found in Neolithic Barcin, J-Z6048 coincides with G-PF3148, both were also found in Mesolithic Caucasus.

Yes very interesting! I'm not aware though of any G-PF3148 from the Mesolithic Caucasus.

Agamemnon
06-23-2020, 04:28 PM
It is interesting to note that so far ancient Semitic samples do not seem to have much J2a among them at all. There is some but not nearly as much as I thought there would be.

While it seems unlikely J2a ever was a major marker among the Proto-Semites, this does not preclude an earlier presence, even as far back as the stage of Common Semitic unity. What we're seeing in the BA Levantine results in terms of Y-Chromosomal data is sharp substructure from one area to the next. Because it is the most common so far, J1-P58 illustrates this quite clearly, if you look at the samples from the last three studies (see here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/drive?state=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%221yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkO vU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G%22%5D%2C%22action%22%3A%22open%22%2C%22userId%22 %3A%22108213545188297672475%22%7D&usp=sharing)) you will notice a specific pattern, namely samples from a single site tend to carry the same branch. So for example, we have Z1853* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1853/) among the EBA Eblaites (possibly an unknown branch, tied to East Semitic-speaking groups), MF35937 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-MF35937/) in a LBA Amorite from Alalakh, a MBA individual from Hazor that is Z27681 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27681/), a dozen LBA samples from Al Baq'a (Jordan) which all seem to be Y2919 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y2919/), another three YSC76 samples from IA Beirut and finally two Y3081 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081/) individuals from Megiddo, one dating back to the MBA and the other to the Early Iron Age (it's likely several of the other P58 individuals from Megiddo are Y3081 as well).

In other words, each site seems to have a different branch, so there is very sharp Y-Chromosomal substructure from one area to the next (keep in mind that several of those sites are quite close to each other, Ebla for instance is just about 60 kilometers away from Alalakh, same thing for Hazor and Megiddo), a crucial detail that is missed if we wish to focus on J1-P58 in a superficial manner as if it were a monolith.

So the reason why we're not seeing much J2a (save two or three samples from Megiddo that seem to be M92) probably has more to do with this local substructure than anything else, it is quite plausible that we will see sites where the majority of the samples carry different branches of J2a.

J Man
06-23-2020, 04:55 PM
While it seems unlikely J2a ever was a major marker among the Proto-Semites, this does not preclude an earlier presence, even as far back as the stage of Common Semitic unity. What we're seeing in the BA Levantine results in terms of Y-Chromosomal data is sharp substructure from one area to the next. Because it is the most common so far, J1-P58 illustrates this quite clearly, if you look at the samples from the last three studies (see here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/drive?state=%7B%22ids%22%3A%5B%221yOAdOcVbdDR7UpkO vU_ZI7UbbHQAHK-G%22%5D%2C%22action%22%3A%22open%22%2C%22userId%22 %3A%22108213545188297672475%22%7D&usp=sharing)) you will notice a specific pattern, namely samples from a single site tend to carry the same branch. So for example, we have Z1853* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1853/) among the EBA Eblaites (possibly an unknown branch, tied to East Semitic-speaking groups), MF35937 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-MF35937/) in a LBA Amorite from Alalakh, a MBA individual from Hazor that is Z27681 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27681/), a dozen LBA samples from Al Baq'a (Jordan) which all seem to be Y2919 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y2919/), another three YSC76 samples from IA Beirut and finally two Y3081 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081/) individuals from Megiddo, one dating back to the MBA and the other to the Early Iron Age (it's likely several of the other P58 individuals from Megiddo are Y3081 as well).

In other words, each site seems to have a different branch, so there is very sharp Y-Chromosomal substructure from one area to the next (keep in mind that several of those sites are quite close to each other, Ebla for instance is just about 60 kilometers away from Alalakh, same thing for Hazor and Megiddo), a crucial detail that is missed if we wish to focus on J1-P58 in a superficial manner as if it were a monolith.

So the reason why we're not seeing much J2a (save two or three samples from Megiddo that seem to be M92) probably has more to do with this local substructure than anything else, it is quite plausible that we will see sites where the majority of the samples carry different branches of J2a.

Yes time will tell...I am really looking forward to seeing some more Kura-Araxes samples tested as well.

J Man
06-28-2020, 04:51 PM
Those are related to another wave, it is under Z6048, the same branch has also been found in Neolithic Barcin, J-Z6048 coincides with G-PF3148, both were also found in Mesolithic Caucasus.

Did you ever get a chance to look at the J2 Megiddo samples?

Ahmed Ali
07-10-2020, 02:32 PM
Hi there,

I'm looking for some help with my y-dna. I just did y-seq and I'm positive for MF10470+ which makes my position on Y-full J-Y182822 (downstream of J2a2).

Does anyone know anything more about this particular clade? By way of background, my paternal grandfather is from Lahore, Pakistan, but says his own great grandfather (on the paternal line) was a migrant to the subcontinent during the Mughal era. I would be fascinated to know whether this clade represents a local or potentially central asian origin. I see that, so far, its shared by one Pakistani and one Russian Tatar.

Any thoughts or guidance would be gratefully received. I've been trying to crack this conundrum for a while!

J Man
07-14-2020, 01:58 PM
A Medieval J2 result from the Ural region has appeared in this new paper. The sample Uyelgi11 seems to be J2 although in the main part of the paper they mention that they were not able to refine the subclade further down from J2 but in a table down near the bottom he is labeled as J2b1.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.13.200154v1.full.pdf

J Man
07-14-2020, 10:16 PM
I emailed one of the authors and got this response about the Uyelgi11 sample.

"thank you for highlighting this misinterpretation of Y-chromosomal haplogroup!

We classified the Y-haplogroups based on Y-SNPs as well as Y-STRs (both were incomplete), so based on SNP set we were able to determine only the J2, and based on STRs it could be J2b1 M205 (or J2a1 M31)9. But the correct result is the J2*, we will revise the Fig.4."

Hopefully the raw data will be released at some point. I think that it is more likely to be J2b1-M205 than J2a-M319 though.

Principe
07-14-2020, 11:59 PM
I emailed one of the authors and got this response about the Uyelgi11 sample.

"thank you for highlighting this misinterpretation of Y-chromosomal haplogroup!

We classified the Y-haplogroups based on Y-SNPs as well as Y-STRs (both were incomplete), so based on SNP set we were able to determine only the J2, and based on STRs it could be J2b1 M205 (or J2a1 M31)9. But the correct result is the J2*, we will revise the Fig.4."

Hopefully the raw data will be released at some point. I think that it is more likely to be J2b1-M205 than J2a-M319 though.

Thanks Jman for the update, I appreciate it!

Principe
11-30-2020, 10:42 PM
A little update now on the Bronze Age Sicilian sample

I7796, Contrada Paolina, Castelluccio Culture, 1900-1700 BC or 3900-3700 ybp, is now J2a-P5197>PF5174 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5174/

Unfortunately nothing really could be called further

Main negatives are: PF7421, Z3708

No calls for PF5177, PF5252

Its hard to know if any further branches would be called if the sample quality was better, though odds are based on the main negatives would likely fall under PF5252.

Principe
12-01-2020, 12:44 AM
Now to start with the samples from a Fascinating paper, The Southern Levant paper, which has 8 J2 samples, interestingly all 8 samples are found in 2 locations separated over time, Megiddo and Yehud. The samples split into 3 J2a's and 5 J2b's, this is so far the oldest J2a samples found in Israel and Southern Levant.

The J2a's will be shown first

I10266, Tel Megiddo, MLBA, 1600-1400 BCE or 3600-3400 ybp, is J2a2-L581>PF5000 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5000/

Main Negatives: P279, Y29673
Ambiguous Negative: PF4993


I2190, Tel Megiddo, MLBA, 1500-1300 BCE or 3500-3300 ybp, is J2a-PF5119>M67>Z500>M92 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M92/

Main Negatives: Z8096 (CTS2906), PH672, Y18411
No calls: Z508, Z504, PF7412, SK1344, Z515

I4519, Tel Megiddo, MLBA, 1500-1400 BCE or 3500-3400 ybp, is J2a-PF5119>M67>Z500>M92 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M92/

No calls: Z508, Z504, PF7412, SK1344, Z515, Z8096 (CTS2906)

I will post later for the J2b's.

Principe
12-04-2020, 06:35 PM
For the J2b, we have 5 samples, with four coming from Yehud and 1 coming from Megiddo

I4521, Tel Megiddo, EBA, 2300-2100 BCE or 4300-4100 ybp, is J2b-M205 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

I7182, Tel Yehud, EBA, 2500-2100 BCE or 4500-4100 ybp, is J2b-M205 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

I7003, Tel Yehud, EBA, 2500-2100 BCE or 4500-4100 ybp, is J2b-M205 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

I6923, Tel Yehud, EBA, 2500-2100 BCE or 4500-4100 ybp, is J2b-M205 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

I6928, Tel Yehud, EBA, 2500-2100 BCE or 4500-4100 ybp, is J2b-M205 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

Unfortunately I was not able to find any positives snps downstream

I have found a couple of negatives: Y47134, Y134194

These samples further reinforces J2b-M205's role in Semitic speakers, and is one of the foundational Semitic branches, J2b-M205 seems to have been a hugely important branch for the Levant region, with now Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and neighbouring Egypt all having ancient dna individuals in this branch.

J Man
12-21-2020, 05:17 PM
An interesting post on the haplogroup J2 group on Facebook about a modern Uyghur sample that shares some SNP markers with both modern day Turkish samples and ancient Turkic samples.

"The Turkish Uyghur sample from China, HGDP01304 from the global HGDP project, was analyzed by Yfull, and it was found that it is within J-BY114993 and this sample is important in knowing the history of the original branch J2-L581 and the history of the Turkish language
Since the sample has a common ancestor with current Turkish samples and old samples, this indicates migrations from Central Asia towards Anatolia and present-day Turkey.
There is a possibility of the relationship of the Elamite language with the Proto-Turkish language and a migration from the Iranian plateau to Central Asia due to drought or the spread of agriculture and the relationship of the Haplogroups to the Agglutinative language

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY114993/"

davit
12-21-2020, 05:23 PM
An interesting post on the haplogroup J2 group on Facebook about a modern Uyghur sample that shares some SNP markers with both modern day Turkish samples and ancient Turkic samples.

"The Turkish Uyghur sample from China, HGDP01304 from the global HGDP project, was analyzed by Yfull, and it was found that it is within J-BY114993 and this sample is important in knowing the history of the original branch J2-L581 and the history of the Turkish language
Since the sample has a common ancestor with current Turkish samples and old samples, this indicates migrations from Central Asia towards Anatolia and present-day Turkey.
There is a possibility of the relationship of the Elamite language with the Proto-Turkish language and a migration from the Iranian plateau to Central Asia due to drought or the spread of agriculture and the relationship of the Haplogroups to the Agglutinative language

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY114993/"

Nice. I've never seen so much nonsense in one statement. Surprised they didn't claim Sumerian, yamnaya and corded ware weren't related to Proto turkish in addition to elamite.

Johnny ola
12-21-2020, 05:35 PM
An interesting post on the haplogroup J2 group on Facebook about a modern Uyghur sample that shares some SNP markers with both modern day Turkish samples and ancient Turkic samples.

"The Turkish Uyghur sample from China, HGDP01304 from the global HGDP project, was analyzed by Yfull, and it was found that it is within J-BY114993 and this sample is important in knowing the history of the original branch J2-L581 and the history of the Turkish language
Since the sample has a common ancestor with current Turkish samples and old samples, this indicates migrations from Central Asia towards Anatolia and present-day Turkey.
There is a possibility of the relationship of the Elamite language with the Proto-Turkish language and a migration from the Iranian plateau to Central Asia due to drought or the spread of agriculture and the relationship of the Haplogroups to the Agglutinative language

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY114993/"

Turkocentrism blog? Elamites were prolly heavily Iran N people. Some scholars have suggested the Elamo-darvidian relation BTW.

J Man
12-21-2020, 05:55 PM
Nice. I've never seen so much nonsense in one statement. Surprised they didn't claim Sumerian, yamnaya and corded ware weren't related to Proto turkish in addition to elamite.

Yeah I don't think that Elamite is related in any way to the origins of the Turkic language either. I'm more interested in this Uyghur samples Y-DNA link to both modern day and ancient Turkic samples.

Principe
12-21-2020, 06:17 PM
@Johnny Ola, Davit, and Jman

The branch in question very likely entered the Turkic gene pool via Saka (Eastern Scythians), it was likely originally a pre IE BMAC marker, Kazakhstan still doesn't have that much coverage, it is likely where we'll find it, along with FGC9961.

Principe
01-23-2021, 09:08 PM
I just wanted to make a correction, MA2200 has originally been posted as J-Z6271 per the person who did the analysis, since then it has been uploaded to Yfull and has shown to be instead under J-Y15913*, I have checked the other samples and the calls appear to be right

Here is MA2200 represented by Yfull

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15913/

David Bush
01-23-2021, 09:48 PM
Yeah I don't think that Elamite is related in any way to the origins of the Turkic language either. I'm more interested in this Uyghur samples Y-DNA link to both modern day and ancient Turkic samples.

"kill": achE hal-ba-, cf. forms like hal-ba-qa 'is killed', hal-ba 'dead, killed', hal-pi-i 'he
struck down' (the meanings 'to strike' and 'to kill' go hand in hand for the root). Cf. also the forms
for 'die'.
+ Nostratic: assuming that Elamite -b- is of suffixal nature, one could compare PA *lV 'to
destroy, kill' > Proto-Turkic *Alk- 'to finish, destroy, be exhuasted', Proto-Mongolian *ala- 'to
kill', Proto-Tungus *li- 'to crumble; to kill an animal'. Cf. also in Dravidian,
Proto-Kolami-Gadba *al-- 'to kill' > Kolami alg-, Naikri ala- id. (DED 309), maybe also Parji
andkip- 'to destroy, kill', Salur anukci key- id. (DED 277; a few cases of irregular nasalisation of
lateral resonants are found in this subgroup, cf. PDR *kal 'stone' > Ollari kand, Salur kandu, etc.).
? Afroasiatic: Blaek compares the root with PAA *d-b-l > Semitic *dbl 'to ruin, destroy', Eg.

https://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/elam.pdf

Principe
01-23-2021, 10:07 PM
Now for the large Filling Important Gaps in the Genomic History of Southwest Asia paper which had many ancient J2a samples, across several sites! I will start off with the samples from Arslantepe, which there was originally 8 posted, and based on relooking at all the samples it is actually 7, as ART027 has several key negatives at upstream levels of J2a. Arslantepe is an extremely interesting archaeological phenomena, as it truly was a cross roads location in the Near East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melid

Shout out to Pribislav for many calls, and the help he provides

ART022 Arslantepe, Turkey, 3600-3100 BC (5600-5100 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3020/

ART001 Arslantepe, Turkey, 2500-2300 BC (4500-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z500>Y6240>Z6264* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6264/

ART019 Arslantepe, Turkey, 3500-3300 BC (5500-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z500* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z500/

ART011 Arslantepe, Turkey, 2600-2300 BC (4600-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020>Y17946* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/

This is the second sample found under J-Y17946, interestingly the other is from the Kyjatice Culture in LBA Hungary (BR2), seems that J-Y17946 has extensively travelled, a Caucasus homeland for this branch makes sense that it would spread, it is likely that the Kura Araxes Culture has brought this branch to Arslantepe along with J-Z6264.

ART023 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-PF5087* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5087/

It pains me to say but the call I had for L210 was a false positive, the sample is of lower quality

ART020 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-M319* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

My personal apology to Sorcelow, as this is the second time I had originally called J-Y16819 and it turned out to be a mix of negatives and false positives, it was the only "positive" I got under the 5 J-M319 branches, it happens, I called mine wrong for ART023

ART017 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z467>Y15193* (J-SK1336) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15913/

With J-Y15913 being found in Chalcolithic Arslantepe and the Middle Bronze Age Hittite era samples it is clear that it had an important history in Anatolia, likely being born somewhere along the Taurus Mountains.

I will continue on with the other 3 sites at a later date.

Johnny ola
01-23-2021, 10:54 PM
Now for the large Filling Important Gaps in the Genomic History of Southwest Asia paper which had many ancient J2a samples, across several sites! I will start off with the samples from Arslantepe, which there was originally 8 posted, and based on relooking at all the samples it is actually 7, as ART027 has several key negatives at upstream levels of J2a. Arslantepe is an extremely interesting archaeological phenomena, as it truly was a cross roads location in the Near East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melid

Shout out to Pribislav for many calls, and the help he provides

ART022 Arslantepe, Turkey, 3600-3100 BC (5600-5100 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3020/

ART001 Arslantepe, Turkey, 2500-2300 BC (4500-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z500>Y6240>Z6264* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6264/

ART019 Arslantepe, Turkey, 3500-3300 BC (5500-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z500* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z500/

ART011 Arslantepe, Turkey, 2600-2300 BC (4600-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020>Y17946* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/

This is the second sample found under J-Y17946, interestingly the other is from the Kyjatice Culture in LBA Hungary (BR2), seems that J-Y17946 has extensively travelled, a Caucasus homeland for this branch makes sense that it would spread, it is likely that the Kura Araxes Culture has brought this branch to Arslantepe along with J-Z6264.

ART023 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-PF5087* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5087/

It pains me to say but the call I had for L210 was a false positive, the sample is of lower quality

ART020 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-M319* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

My personal apology to Sorcelow, as this is the second time I had originally called J-Y16819 and it turned out to be a mix of negatives and false positives, it was the only "positive" I got under the 5 J-M319 branches, it happens, I called mine wrong for ART023

ART017 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z467>Y15193* (J-SK1336) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15913/

With J-Y15913 being found in Chalcolithic Arslantepe and the Middle Bronze Age Hittite era samples it is clear that it had an important history in Anatolia, likely being born somewhere along the Taurus Mountains.

I will continue on with the other 3 sites at a later date.

@ Principe

Keep up the good work mate.More anatolian Ydna if its possible. B):)

J Man
01-24-2021, 12:35 AM
Now for the large Filling Important Gaps in the Genomic History of Southwest Asia paper which had many ancient J2a samples, across several sites! I will start off with the samples from Arslantepe, which there was originally 8 posted, and based on relooking at all the samples it is actually 7, as ART027 has several key negatives at upstream levels of J2a. Arslantepe is an extremely interesting archaeological phenomena, as it truly was a cross roads location in the Near East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melid

Shout out to Pribislav for many calls, and the help he provides

ART022 Arslantepe, Turkey, 3600-3100 BC (5600-5100 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3020/

ART001 Arslantepe, Turkey, 2500-2300 BC (4500-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z500>Y6240>Z6264* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6264/

ART019 Arslantepe, Turkey, 3500-3300 BC (5500-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z500* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z500/

ART011 Arslantepe, Turkey, 2600-2300 BC (4600-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020>Y17946* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/

This is the second sample found under J-Y17946, interestingly the other is from the Kyjatice Culture in LBA Hungary (BR2), seems that J-Y17946 has extensively travelled, a Caucasus homeland for this branch makes sense that it would spread, it is likely that the Kura Araxes Culture has brought this branch to Arslantepe along with J-Z6264.

ART023 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-PF5087* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5087/

It pains me to say but the call I had for L210 was a false positive, the sample is of lower quality

ART020 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-M319* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

My personal apology to Sorcelow, as this is the second time I had originally called J-Y16819 and it turned out to be a mix of negatives and false positives, it was the only "positive" I got under the 5 J-M319 branches, it happens, I called mine wrong for ART023

ART017 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z467>Y15193* (J-SK1336) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15913/

With J-Y15913 being found in Chalcolithic Arslantepe and the Middle Bronze Age Hittite era samples it is clear that it had an important history in Anatolia, likely being born somewhere along the Taurus Mountains.

I will continue on with the other 3 sites at a later date.

Very interesting stuff for sure...It looks like only of these samples from Arslantepe may be associated with the Kura-Araxes culture. The Kura-Araxes culture arrived there just before 3000 BC I think although there could have been some earlier Kura-Araxes movements there as well in smaller numbers.

Principe
01-24-2021, 10:04 PM
To continue from previous post, we have an additional 6 ancient J2 samples from this paper, with 4 from Alalakh, 1 from Iziktepe and 1 from Titris Hoyuk. With a perfect split between 3 J2a's and 3 J2b's. I will provide a link for all three sites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alalakh

http://www3.uakron.edu/titris/overview.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0kiztepe

Unfortunately the samples from Titris Hoyuk and Iziktepe are of lower quality and no meaningful downstreams could be found

TIT021 Titris Hoyuk, Turkey, 2300-2100 BC (4300-4100 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2b-M102

IKI024 Iziktepe, Turkey, 4000-3000 BC (6000-5000 ybp); Chalcolithic; belongs to J2a-PF4610

Luckily the 4 samples from Alalakh provided interesting calls, I'll start off with the 2 J2a's and then the 2 J2b's

ALA011 Alalakh, Turkey, 2100-1300 BC (4100-3300 ybp); Middle Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020>CTS6804* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6804/

Negative for all Downstreams, very interesting position

ALA004 Alalakh, Turkey, 2100-1300 BC (4100-3300 ybp); Middle Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z500>Y6240* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6240/

Has no calls for all Downstreams

ALA014 Alalakh, Turkey, 2100-1300 BC (4100-3300 ybp); Middle Bronze Age, belongs to J2b-M205>CTS1969>Y22075* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22075/

Main Negatives: FT57341, Y128487 and Y22059

ALA095 Alalakh, Turkey, 2100-1300 BC (4100-3300 ybp); Middle Bronze Age, belongs to J2b-Z2453>Y31143* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y31143/

Negative for both Downstreams.

Principe
01-24-2021, 10:26 PM
It is exciting that we finally got an ancient sample from the Cycladic Culture, and turned out to be J2a. The Cycladic Culture was a crucial Early Bronze Age civilization that came directly from Anatolia, they were the first true Bronze Age Culture in Mediterranean Europe. I highly suggest for anyone who is interested in Bronze Age Cultures to give them a read up, I will post the Wiki article for them, it does not do the full the justice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycladic_culture#:~:text=Cycladic%20culture%20(als o%20known%20as,Cyclades%20in%20the%20Aegean%20Sea.

Kou01 Koufonisi, Greece, 2500-2300 BC (4500-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z6057>Y13128>Z36834* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z36834*/

The sample is uploaded to Yfull

Hopefully this is the beginning of a slew of papers from both the Cycladic and Minoan Cultures.

Jack Johnson
01-30-2021, 06:48 AM
This is very cool, so now we have 4 J2a-Z6055 samples from pre-Classical Age Europe. There's I5078 who belongs to J2a-SK1363(xZ36827,Y14435) from Sopot MN, Croatia, 5000-4800 BCE/4692-4546 BCE, then I1902/FEB3a with J2a-Z6055, from Lengyel LN, Hungary, 4800-4500 BCE, and finally the Mycenaean sample I9041/Galatas4 1700-1200 BCE, also with J2a-Z6057. I'd be willing to bet that Mycenaean sample belongs to a clade closely related to this Cycladic one. Seems like there were multiple migrations of various Anatolian Farmer groups into Southern Europe throughout the Neolithic, though these later waves of farmers would have more Iranian Neolithic Farmer/CHG related ancestry, and to a lesser extent, Neolithic Levant ancestry. I bet some G2, J1, E1b1b/E-M34, T, H, and L tagged along too, along with other J2a/J2b clades. Thank you for your work, I wonder if we will get more results from Sardinia, Sicily, or possibly Mycenaean colonists; more from Mesolithic-Neolithic Southern Europe and West Asia would be nice too.

J Man
01-30-2021, 01:32 PM
This is very cool, so now we have 4 J2a-Z6055 samples from pre-Classical Age Europe. There's I5078 who belongs to J2a-SK1363(xZ36827,Y14435) from Sopot MN, Croatia, 5000-4800 BCE/4692-4546 BCE, then I1902/FEB3a with J2a-Z6055, from Lengyel LN, Hungary, 4800-4500 BCE, and finally the Mycenaean sample I9041/Galatas4 1700-1200 BCE, also with J2a-Z6057. I'd be willing to bet that Mycenaean sample belongs to a clade closely related to this Cycladic one, seems like a later neolithic movement from Anatolia, with more Iranian Neolithic Farmer/CHG related ancestry. I bet some G2, J1, E1b1b/E-M34, T, H, and L tagged along too, along with other J2a/J2b clades. Thank you for your work, I wonder if we will get more results from Sardinia, Sicily, or possibly Mycenaean colonists; more from Mesolithic-Neolithic Southern Europe and West Asia would be nice too.

There are also a couple of Neolithic J2a samples from Italy but I can't remember which subclade they belong to.

Jack Johnson
01-31-2021, 04:39 AM
Yes you are correct. The samples I believe you are referring to are R17, who belonged to J2a-PreY29673, and R19, who had J2a-S11842*. Both were from the Neolithic site at Ripabianca di Monterado, Marche, Italy, and both samples were dated between 5345-5221 BCE. There are two more Neolithic, Early European Farmer J2a samples that we know of, and these come from the Linear Pottery culture (LBK) in Austria, both were J2a-Z6048 and are dated between 5500-4500 BCE. They are I5068, who belonged to J2a-Z6048(xS15572), and I5207 who had J2a-Z6048(xFGC61600,S15572).

Helves
02-20-2021, 08:08 PM
Now for the large Filling Important Gaps in the Genomic History of Southwest Asia paper which had many ancient J2a samples, across several sites! I will start off with the samples from Arslantepe, which there was originally 8 posted, and based on relooking at all the samples it is actually 7, as ART027 has several key negatives at upstream levels of J2a. Arslantepe is an extremely interesting archaeological phenomena, as it truly was a cross roads location in the Near East.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melid

Shout out to Pribislav for many calls, and the help he provides

ART022 Arslantepe, Turkey, 3600-3100 BC (5600-5100 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3020/

ART001 Arslantepe, Turkey, 2500-2300 BC (4500-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z500>Y6240>Z6264* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6264/

ART019 Arslantepe, Turkey, 3500-3300 BC (5500-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z500* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z500/

ART011 Arslantepe, Turkey, 2600-2300 BC (4600-4300 ybp); Early Bronze Age, belongs to J2a-Z7671>CTS900>Y3020>Y17946* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/

This is the second sample found under J-Y17946, interestingly the other is from the Kyjatice Culture in LBA Hungary (BR2), seems that J-Y17946 has extensively travelled, a Caucasus homeland for this branch makes sense that it would spread, it is likely that the Kura Araxes Culture has brought this branch to Arslantepe along with J-Z6264.

ART023 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-PF5087* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5087/

It pains me to say but the call I had for L210 was a false positive, the sample is of lower quality

ART020 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-M319* https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M319/

My personal apology to Sorcelow, as this is the second time I had originally called J-Y16819 and it turned out to be a mix of negatives and false positives, it was the only "positive" I got under the 5 J-M319 branches, it happens, I called mine wrong for ART023

ART017 Arslantepe, Turkey, 5900-5300 BC (5900-5300 ybp); Chalcolithic, belongs to J2a-Z467>Y15193* (J-SK1336) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15913/

With J-Y15913 being found in Chalcolithic Arslantepe and the Middle Bronze Age Hittite era samples it is clear that it had an important history in Anatolia, likely being born somewhere along the Taurus Mountains.

I will continue on with the other 3 sites at a later date.

J2 is such a fascinating clade. I'd like to hear your opinion on how it spread in West Asia. J2 is quite evenly distributed throughout the region outside of the Arabian penninsula. How far apart are the clades that say Iranians and Levantines carry? I know there's a fascination with dumping everything that's not E into Iran and saying that it spread from there, but I'm assuming some clades are linked to CHG and Anatolian farmers?

Principe
02-20-2021, 11:39 PM
J2 is such a fascinating clade. I'd like to hear your opinion on how it spread in West Asia. J2 is quite evenly distributed throughout the region outside of the Arabian penninsula. How far apart are the clades that say Iranians and Levantines carry? I know there's a fascination with dumping everything that's not E into Iran and saying that it spread from there, but I'm assuming some clades are linked to CHG and Anatolian farmers?

Thanks and no problem, from the beginning J2 likely covered Mesopotamia, Iran and Caucasus as Hunter Gatherers, there is already samples for proof of the latter two, I am 99% confident Mesopotamia HG was also rich in J2. Each area likely gave rise to their respective branches, and then during the Neolithic everything moved around, I think ultimately the Fertile Crescent was the vector from which vast majority moved, maybe the Zagros mountain range could be said as a good central location, with the J-PF5119 being West of the Zagros and the J-PF5160 being East of it originally, we should see this pattern across even earlier split offs and J2b clades, with J-M205 being West of the Zagros and J-M241 being East of it. In the Caucasus so far it seems the J-Z6046 might be the only one, J1 also was found above the Caucasus so there had to be a Mesolithic J move to the area. Now for how close is the Iranian and Levantine clades? Generally pretty close and the same goes for all J2, even the ones in Europe and South Asia all share ancestors within the last 5000 years general. Lots of historic cultures and empires likely carried J2 and helped it spread around, it is honestly branch by branch deep dive if you would, there was always a clear movement it seems from all locations.

Helves
02-21-2021, 12:37 AM
Thanks and no problem, from the beginning J2 likely covered Mesopotamia, Iran and Caucasus as Hunter Gatherers, there is already samples for proof of the latter two, I am 99% confident Mesopotamia HG was also rich in J2. Each area likely gave rise to their respective branches, and then during the Neolithic everything moved around, I think ultimately the Fertile Crescent was the vector from which vast majority moved, maybe the Zagros mountain range could be said as a good central location, with the J-PF5119 being West of the Zagros and the J-PF5160 being East of it originally, we should see this pattern across even earlier split offs and J2b clades, with J-M205 being West of the Zagros and J-M241 being East of it. In the Caucasus so far it seems the J-Z6046 might be the only one, J1 also was found above the Caucasus so there had to be a Mesolithic J move to the area. Now for how close is the Iranian and Levantine clades? Generally pretty close and the same goes for all J2, even the ones in Europe and South Asia all share ancestors within the last 5000 years general. Lots of historic cultures and empires likely carried J2 and helped it spread around, it is honestly branch by branch deep dive if you would, there was always a clear movement it seems from all locations.

Yeah that's the general idea I got just by looking at yfull and the ftdna haplotree, like you said very few Levantine, Iranian, or even European/South Asian clades(I'm thinking the Semitic J-M205 and the European J-L283 are one of the few who seem to have clear geographical restrictions) that are older than say the Bronze Age which is why I asked you since you obviously know a lot more about the phylogeny of J2 than most people.

Btw what do we know so far about this particular clade: J-Y17946 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/)
It seems to pop up among several of my distant relatives.

Ahmed Ali
02-21-2021, 01:01 AM
Thanks and no problem, from the beginning J2 likely covered Mesopotamia, Iran and Caucasus as Hunter Gatherers, there is already samples for proof of the latter two, I am 99% confident Mesopotamia HG was also rich in J2. Each area likely gave rise to their respective branches, and then during the Neolithic everything moved around, I think ultimately the Fertile Crescent was the vector from which vast majority moved, maybe the Zagros mountain range could be said as a good central location, with the J-PF5119 being West of the Zagros and the J-PF5160 being East of it originally, we should see this pattern across even earlier split offs and J2b clades, with J-M205 being West of the Zagros and J-M241 being East of it. In the Caucasus so far it seems the J-Z6046 might be the only one, J1 also was found above the Caucasus so there had to be a Mesolithic J move to the area. Now for how close is the Iranian and Levantine clades? Generally pretty close and the same goes for all J2, even the ones in Europe and South Asia all share ancestors within the last 5000 years general. Lots of historic cultures and empires likely carried J2 and helped it spread around, it is honestly branch by branch deep dive if you would, there was always a clear movement it seems from all locations.

This is really interesting. Thanks so much for the insight. Do you have any information on the origin/spread of J-Pf5008 by any chance? I'm struggling to find much at all online.

J Man
02-21-2021, 01:16 AM
Yeah that's the general idea I got just by looking at yfull and the ftdna haplotree, like you said very few Levantine, Iranian, or even European/South Asian clades(I'm thinking the Semitic J-M205 and the European J-L283 are one of the few who seem to have clear geographical restrictions) that are older than say the Bronze Age which is why I asked you since you obviously know a lot more about the phylogeny of J2 than most people.

Btw what do we know so far about this particular clade: J-Y17946 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/)
It seems to pop up among several of my distant relatives.

Are your distant relatives that belong to J-Y17946 all Assyrians?

Helves
02-21-2021, 01:30 AM
Are your distant relatives that belong to J-Y17946 all Assyrians?

Yes, atleast paternally.

J Man
02-21-2021, 03:41 AM
Yes, atleast paternally.

Interesting...There is not as much J2 in the Assyrian DNA Project as I thought there would be.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject?iframe=yresults

subzero85
02-21-2021, 03:47 AM
Is there any insight on J2-PF5169?

Once we get further downstream, it seems to have a European cluster, Arabic cluster, and a South Asian cluster.

Principe
02-21-2021, 03:50 PM
Yeah that's the general idea I got just by looking at yfull and the ftdna haplotree, like you said very few Levantine, Iranian, or even European/South Asian clades(I'm thinking the Semitic J-M205 and the European J-L283 are one of the few who seem to have clear geographical restrictions) that are older than say the Bronze Age which is why I asked you since you obviously know a lot more about the phylogeny of J2 than most people.

Btw what do we know so far about this particular clade: J-Y17946 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/)
It seems to pop up among several of my distant relatives.

Yeah and you see that even J-M205 and J-L283 spring up in all directions despite one being Semitic and the other being Balkanic.

So far its appeared in 2 ancient samples the older one being in Early Bronze Age Arslantepe and the other being the BR2 samples in Late Bronze Age Hungary. I’m sure we’ll get more samples, my honest thoughts it was a key Hurrian lineage, so a key marker in the Fertile Crescent, makes sense since your Assyrian probably lends more to the Hurrian theory with your cousins being located in this branch.

Principe
02-21-2021, 03:53 PM
This is really interesting. Thanks so much for the insight. Do you have any information on the origin/spread of J-Pf5008 by any chance? I'm struggling to find much at all online.

Luckily there are several samples in ancient dna for J-PF5008, this branch has been found in 2 separate Mesolithic Iranian samples, so West of Zagros region. There was a paper on Central Asia and South Asia which a lot of J2a2 was found, I have all the branches analysis here, do you where you fall under J-PF5008?

Principe
02-21-2021, 03:58 PM
Is there any insight on J2-PF5169?

Once we get further downstream, it seems to have a European cluster, Arabic cluster, and a South Asian cluster.


J-PF5169 is probably one of the toughest ones to know in all honesty, some of it appears to be tided to Central Asia BMAC Culture, was even found in Bronze Age Pakistan iirc, as well as Bronze Age Sicily. It spread very far and wide, it seems to have been a major marker of the Iran Neolithic admix profile farmers based on the TMRCA and branch splitting nature, so I guess for PF5169 each branch might have its own unique story.

Ahmed Ali
02-21-2021, 04:00 PM
Luckily there are several samples in ancient dna for J-PF5008, this branch has been found in 2 separate Mesolithic Iranian samples, so West of Zagros region. There was a paper on Central Asia and South Asia which a lot of J2a2 was found, I have all the branches analysis here, do you where you fall under J-PF5008?

That is fascinating. Would you be able to share that paper with me? I am trying to research my clade MF10475+ but sadly to no avail so far. The best I can find is very occasional mentions by people on social media. It seems to be extremely obscure. Its phylogeny is J-PF5008 > J-MF10470 > J-MF10501 > J-MF10475. Any additional information you have would be much appreciated. Thank you so much!

Principe
02-21-2021, 04:33 PM
That is fascinating. Would you be able to share that paper with me? I am trying to research my clade MF10475+ but sadly to no avail so far. The best I can find is very occasional mentions by people on social media. It seems to be extremely obscure. Its phylogeny is J-PF5008 > J-MF10470 > J-MF10501 > J-MF10475. Any additional information you have would be much appreciated. Thank you so much!

Yes indeed it is fascinating. I’ll link the paper and the pages where the analysis was done

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/292581v1

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2/page6

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2/page7

You belong to a basal branch, and right now its not that well represented in the tree, so its hard to find out any additional information, seeing where you are and that the most basals are in and around Iran, I would have think an ultimately its an Eastern Iranian J2 branch.

Ahmed Ali
02-21-2021, 05:14 PM
Yes indeed it is fascinating. I’ll link the paper and the pages where the analysis was done

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/292581v1

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2/page6

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12858-The-History-of-J2/page7

You belong to a basal branch, and right now its not that well represented in the tree, so its hard to find out any additional information, seeing where you are and that the most basals are in and around Iran, I would have think an ultimately its an Eastern Iranian J2 branch.

Thanks very much for sharing the resources. That sounds interesting. I guess I'll have to wait until more samples are recovered before we can gain more clarity on a likely point of origin. But I share your view that an Eastern Iranian origin is, on the available evidence, credible. A group admin in another forum suggested that J-PF5008 is ultimately a Caspian Sea clade that was likely spread by Sarmatians and Scythians. Do you mind me asking how tenable you think that could be?

RCO
02-21-2021, 05:23 PM
When we compare J1 and J2 movements we can find a stunning difference. They had more or less the same Mesolithic origins in more or less the same broad places but the distribution is almost thoroughly completely different. J1 is usually separated by space, language, culture and religion for a long time. In the beggining I thought Medieval sectarian lines of divisions from Western Iberia, in Portugal, where we can find different J1 clades related to different origins, languages and religions, in my clade I think we were Indo-European, Christians with remote Iranian origins while we can find other J1 clades as Semitic, Muslim, Jew and from the Levant or Arabia, but the same can be seen in the entire J1 history in the Middle East, where we can find different clades related to different languages and usually they don't mix or had not been carried together by the same historical cultures and Empires or religions because they are still completely separated after 12000 ybp. The probable reason is that J1 was not an ancient Neolithic haplogroup but an ancient Pastoralist haplogroup and different clades preserved different geographies, languages, cultures and religions.


Thanks and no problem, from the beginning J2 likely covered Mesopotamia, Iran and Caucasus as Hunter Gatherers, there is already samples for proof of the latter two, I am 99% confident Mesopotamia HG was also rich in J2. Each area likely gave rise to their respective branches, and then during the Neolithic everything moved around, I think ultimately the Fertile Crescent was the vector from which vast majority moved, maybe the Zagros mountain range could be said as a good central location, with the J-PF5119 being West of the Zagros and the J-PF5160 being East of it originally, we should see this pattern across even earlier split offs and J2b clades, with J-M205 being West of the Zagros and J-M241 being East of it. In the Caucasus so far it seems the J-Z6046 might be the only one, J1 also was found above the Caucasus so there had to be a Mesolithic J move to the area. Now for how close is the Iranian and Levantine clades? Generally pretty close and the same goes for all J2, even the ones in Europe and South Asia all share ancestors within the last 5000 years general. Lots of historic cultures and empires likely carried J2 and helped it spread around, it is honestly branch by branch deep dive if you would, there was always a clear movement it seems from all locations.

Principe
02-21-2021, 05:31 PM
Thanks very much for sharing the resources. That sounds interesting. I guess I'll have to wait until more samples are recovered before we can gain more clarity on a likely point of origin. But I share your view that an Eastern Iranian origin is, on the available evidence, credible. A group admin in another forum suggested that J-PF5008 is ultimately a Caspian Sea clade that was likely spread by Sarmatians and Scythians. Do you mind me asking how tenable you think that could be?

Absolute pleasure, yeah unfortunately J2 is not a clear cut haplogroup like several others, and ancient dna is more valuable to understanding our ancestors origins/migration path. J-PF5008 seems to be born around the modern province of Gilan in Iran or somewhere close by, I personally don’t think for your clade a Samaritan or Scythian origin is likely, so far only the J-PF5016 branch under J-PF5008 seems to be associated with Caspian Sea, and even there it is not entirely clear yet. Though majority of J-PF5008 is not associated with it in my honest opinion, the J-FGC9962 branch would be the Samaritan and Scythian primary J2 branch.

Agamemnon
02-21-2021, 05:51 PM
Btw what do we know so far about this particular clade: J-Y17946 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946/)
It seems to pop up among several of my distant relatives.

Y17946 (Y27539) is also one of the two branches of J2a found among Samaritans, more specifically it is the subclade carried by the Danfi clan (tribe of Ephraim). This is actually the only Y-Chromosomal line which might suggest some sort of gene flow between Samaritans and Assyrians, whether Assyrian (as suggested in the narrative of 2 Kings 17) or Israelite in origin (more likely IMO).

hartaisarlag
02-21-2021, 05:56 PM
Y17946 (Y27539) is also one of the two branches of J2a found among Samaritans, more specifically it is the subclade carried by the Danfi clan (tribe of Ephraim). This is actually the only Y-Chromosomal line which might suggest some sort of gene flow between Samaritans and Assyrians, whether Assyrian (as suggested in the narrative of 2 Kings 17) or Israelite in origin (more likely IMO).

Its presence among Ashkenazim and (particularly because of phylogenetic closeness,) Palestinians definitely seems to me to favor a Bronze Age, rather than Assyrian-mediated, arrival in Canaan/Israel.

Agamemnon
02-21-2021, 06:03 PM
Its presence among Ashkenazim and (particularly because of phylogenetic closeness, Palestinians) definitely seems to me to favor a Bronze Age, rather than Assyrian-mediated, arrival in Canaan/Israel.

Precisely, it's also one of the branches which is bound to have arrived in Judah with refugees fleeing the destruction of the northern kingdom circa 720 BCE, so a prime contender as an Israelite/northern lineage among Jews (not the only one).

Helves
02-21-2021, 06:27 PM
Y17946 (Y27539) is also one of the two branches of J2a found among Samaritans, more specifically it is the subclade carried by the Danfi clan (tribe of Ephraim). This is actually the only Y-Chromosomal line which might suggest some sort of gene flow between Samaritans and Assyrians, whether Assyrian (as suggested in the narrative of 2 Kings 17) or Israelite in origin (more likely IMO).

That's interesting so the Samaritan clan and the Assyrian(from Nineveh) on yfull fall under J-Y23162 with a TMRCA of 3300 ybp, under two different sisterclades. Considering the TMRCA maybe it's Amorite in origin spreading to Mesopotamia with the Amorite dynasty of Babylonia? I would imagine Judean lineages that we carry would date later to the Assyrian Iron Age and the Persian era.

sheepslayer
02-21-2021, 08:32 PM
That's interesting so the Samaritan clan and the Assyrian(from Nineveh) on yfull fall under J-Y23162 with a TMRCA of 3300 ybp, under two different sisterclades. Considering the TMRCA maybe it's Amorite in origin spreading to Mesopotamia with the Amorite dynasty of Babylonia? I would imagine Judean lineages that we carry would date later to the Assyrian Iron Age and the Persian era.

My chief remaining question is the origins of those positive for Y17946 who identify with ancient Arabian tribes. This is the case for the only two East Caucasian kits who show up here in YFull; these Chechen testers are listed in FTDNA as "Arboy Quraysh" or Qurayshi Arabs even though they share the same 1300s BC ancestor with others positive for Y23163. I think there's also someone from Kuwait under FT29661, having split earlier in the Bronze Age.

I am extremely naïve concerning the history of West Asia and am curious if anyone more knowledgeable than I has any advice

Agamemnon
02-22-2021, 02:11 AM
When we compare J1 and J2 movements we can find a stunning difference. They had more or less the same Mesolithic origins in more or less the same broad places but the distribution is almost thoroughly completely different. J1 is usually separated by space, language, culture and religion for a long time. In the beggining I thought Medieval sectarian lines of divisions from Western Iberia, in Portugal, where we can find different J1 clades related to different origins, languages and religions, in my clade I think we were Indo-European, Christians with remote Iranian origins while we can find other J1 clades as Semitic, Muslim, Jew and from the Levant or Arabia, but the same can be seen in the entire J1 history in the Middle East, where we can find different clades related to different languages and usually they don't mix or had not been carried together by the same historical cultures and Empires or religions because they are still completely separated after 12000 ybp. The probable reason is that J1 was not an ancient Neolithic haplogroup but an ancient Pastoralist haplogroup and different clades preserved different geographies, languages, cultures and religions.

On the contrary, the archeogenetic evidence so far seems to be strongly hinting at J1 and J2 migrating together, both stemming from a common set of Neolithic migrations around the Fertile Crescent, with the major differences in distribution being due to post-Neolithic founder effects, the clearest example of this being P58's branches spreading with early Semitic dispersals. While the MRCAs of some of the branches indeed go back to the Mesolithic or early Neolithic, there's no reason to assume they didn't migrate together in most cases. Think of how J2b1-M205 keeps showing up alongside J1-Z2331 in most burials (EBA Jordan, MLBA Canaan, pre-Ptolemaic Egypt), I think the same might be true of other clades as well (think of how J1-Z1842 is found alongside branches of J2a-M67 like Y3612 or V2639 among Northeast Caucasian groups, though M67 clades seem limited to the Nakh branch). Also, while the Iranian plateau indeed is a prime contender for J-M267's original homeland, keep in mind that the haplogroup is absent from all ancient individuals from Iran so far, one explanation might be that J1 was more common in the north around the southern slopes of the Caucasus while J2 had a more broadly Caspian distribution, just a thought.


That's interesting so the Samaritan clan and the Assyrian(from Nineveh) on yfull fall under J-Y23162 with a TMRCA of 3300 ybp, under two different sisterclades. Considering the TMRCA maybe it's Amorite in origin spreading to Mesopotamia with the Amorite dynasty of Babylonia? I would imagine Judean lineages that we carry would date later to the Assyrian Iron Age and the Persian era.

3300 ybp is a bit young for an Amorite origin, we're not far removed from the LBA collapse here. It might well be an Amorite branch originally, though the distribution of Y17946 (found in BA Hungary) does this model a great disfavour. It might otherwise be broadly Canaanite, and Hurrian before that.

RCO
02-22-2021, 03:50 AM
Semitic is a subset of Afroasiatic and not associated with basal J1 clades. We have five basal J1 clades and none is Semitic, so the ancient population where J1 developed and branched was placed in the North Middle East. Iran is completely undersampled for its historical importance and territorial extension. When we have J1 in core ancient Iranian archaeological cultures like BMAC we know J1/J2 had a complex web from Central Asia to Eastern Anatolia associated with the first Indo-European speaking populations in the South of the Caucasus.

Lupriac
02-22-2021, 05:47 PM
One of the ironies that often comes to my mind is the absence of ancient J2a samples from Lebanon, ironically the country where J2a is most common (25%) in the Levant :lol: A coincidence perhaps?
Fascinating thread btw.

Lupriac
03-18-2021, 03:48 PM
I will split it for J2a and J2b


Principe, what's your take on J-FGC64029? It's primarily found in Lebanon (there is also an Italian in the cluster in the J-M241 project on FamilyTreeDNA), and upstream of it there's a Kerala Syrian Christian at ~800 BC.

Principe
03-18-2021, 05:40 PM
Hard to say with certainty, imho all J-Z615 was born somewhere in the Balkans, so it would require a move from Southeastern Europe to the Levant by 800 BC, honestly could actually reflect some Sea People like movement, probably entered via late Bronze Age. I know its not really a satisfying answer, but that would be the most likely with the scenario presented.

Johnny ola
03-18-2021, 06:22 PM
Hard to say with certainty, imho all J-Z615 was born somewhere in the Balkans, so it would require a move from Southeastern Europe to the Levant by 800 BC, honestly could actually reflect some Sea People like movement, probably entered via late Bronze Age. I know its not really a satisfying answer, but that would be the most likely with the scenario presented.

G people need someone like you immediately :pray::rolleyes::lol:

Principe
03-18-2021, 06:26 PM
G people need someone like you immediately :pray::rolleyes::lol:

All jokes aside I was actually hoping me creating this thread would prompt other members of Y haplo's do to the same, G needs someone there is so much ancient dna :biggrin1:

Stefanie
03-18-2021, 08:18 PM
Thanks for this thread. I’m not sure where my dad’s haplogroup fits in. He got his big Y results a few days ago. At first it was J-Z459, right down from L210. It said J-L227 was downstream. Yesterday it changed to J-By63165, and now J-L227 is presumed negative. Apparently nothing is downstream from BY63165. And both he and the Egyptian tester were moved from J-Z459 to BY63165. So, that’s about all I know about that. I hadn’t even thought about J2 in Egypt. And have no idea how dad’s got to Philadelphia. I still think his ancestors were from Germany. He has no matches at any level, except 2 at GD1 on the 12 level. One is from Germany and one from Spain. I don’t know who they are though. I can’t see matches at that level. Interesting but baffling stuff. The wait is on for matches. :)

Principe
03-18-2021, 08:44 PM
Thanks for this thread. I’m not sure where my dad’s haplogroup fits in. He got his big Y results a few days ago. At first it was J-Z459, right down from L210. It said J-L227 was downstream. Yesterday it changed to J-By63165, and now J-L227 is presumed negative. Apparently nothing is downstream from BY63165. And both he and the Egyptian tester were moved from J-Z459 to BY63165. So, that’s about all I know about that. I hadn’t even thought about J2 in Egypt. And have no idea how dad’s got to Philadelphia. I still think his ancestors were from Germany. He has no matches at any level, except 2 at GD1 on the 12 level. One is from Germany and one from Spain. I don’t know who they are though. I can’t see matches at that level. Interesting but baffling stuff. The wait is on for matches. :)

Wow so its your Dad who is at that level, I was actually trying to figure out who it was! :) Impossible to know honestly at the moment, very diverged upstream, I think your Dad's branch separated from the main J-L227 branch some 6000-7000 years ago. Does your dad get any BigY matches as in the Egyptian?

Stefanie
03-18-2021, 08:58 PM
Wow so its your Dad who is at that level, I was actually trying to figure out who it was! :) Impossible to know honestly at the moment, very diverged upstream, I think your Dad's branch separated from the main J-L227 branch some 6000-7000 years ago. Does your dad get any BigY matches as in the Egyptian?

No, unfortunately he has no matches. This kind of testing is new to me. Hopefully, he’ll get a match over time.

Principe
03-18-2021, 09:06 PM
No, unfortunately he has no matches. This kind of testing is new to me. Hopefully, he’ll get a match over time.

I am sure he will :) with rarer branches it takes a little bit more patience, are you going to upload your father's kit to Yfull?

Stefanie
03-18-2021, 09:19 PM
I am sure he will :) with rarer branches it takes a little bit more patience, are you going to upload your father's kit to Yfull?

I will give that a try. Thank you.

Vognejar
05-04-2021, 07:15 AM
My result J-Y167175 (J2b). By autosomes, I am a native and typical Ukrainian (Kyivan Rus, east slavs). According to the history of the clan - the Zaporozhye grassroots Cossacks of the 17th century. Are there any theories about how the haplogroup could get to Ukraine?

Principe
05-05-2021, 01:56 PM
My result J-Y167175 (J2b). By autosomes, I am a native and typical Ukrainian (Kyivan Rus, east slavs). According to the history of the clan - the Zaporozhye grassroots Cossacks of the 17th century. Are there any theories about how the haplogroup could get to Ukraine?

Its a relatively rare branch and ultimately an interesting one. At this point its hard to know but I would guess Scythian/Sarmatian at the moment, considering there is an Iranian there, probably Iran Neolithic>Central Asia>Indo-Iranian>Ukraine as your ancestors possible broad route. Maybe if we get more individuals and ancient dna the picture can change!

altvred
05-06-2021, 11:48 AM
A new public dataset of 780 genomes with 45x-65x sequencing coverage from the Turkish population (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJNA674530) has just been published on SRA and ENA. So far, one sample has been uploaded to YFull, with probably more to follow.

I've only examined about 8 random male samples, a few exotic likely Central Asian in origin haplogroups detected. Still, it looks like many J2's, some with rather basal branch positions (TMRCA's dating to approximately the Neolithic), will be added by YFull to their tree over the next few months.

https://i.imgur.com/AB22srn.png

https://i.imgur.com/yAuZSps.png

https://i.imgur.com/xPZVdF0.png

Principe
05-06-2021, 02:02 PM
A new public dataset of 780 genomes with 45x-65x sequencing coverage from the Turkish population (https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJNA674530) has just been published on SRA and ENA. So far, one sample has been uploaded to YFull, with probably more to follow.

I've only examined about 8 random male samples, a few exotic likely Central Asian in origin haplogroups detected. Still, it looks like many J2's, some with rather basal branch positions (TMRCA's dating to approximately the Neolithic), will be added by YFull to their tree over the next few months.

https://i.imgur.com/AB22srn.png

https://i.imgur.com/yAuZSps.png

https://i.imgur.com/xPZVdF0.png

Yeah I know exciting!! The first upload was under L210 B) There doesn’t seem to be any indication of where geographically the samples are from in Turkey, I expect the codes should be relevant but who knows?

Principe
05-06-2021, 02:23 PM
So far these are the ones posted

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS2282/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY197963/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC30776/

altvred
05-06-2021, 02:47 PM
Yeah I know exciting!! The first upload was under L210 B) There doesn’t seem to be any indication of where geographically the samples are from in Turkey, I expect the codes should be relevant but who knows?

The preprint or published study will probably show the geographic origin of each sample, a very similar type of article about Ukraine published earlier this year did that.

It's definitely an exciting dataset in terms of YDNA. Many lineages have roots in the Anatolian Neolithic, and they expanded west and east along with the advent of agriculture. There are very likely basal subclades in modern Turkey that can be especially insightful with the broader phylogeny of each clade.

I barely went through 10 samples before encountering rare haplogroups, like R-PH155

https://i.imgur.com/qZHcKq0.png

Not to mention that due to more historic population movements into Anatolia there are plenty of exotic haplogroups for this part of the world. Like this basal O-F117

https://i.imgur.com/6ut8VCq.png

slamberty
05-07-2021, 04:35 PM
Just got my updated YFULL test results, the Belgian sample is mine.44586

slamberty
05-07-2021, 08:15 PM
Based on everything I've read and everyone I've talked to who has knowledge of J-Y23094, the general consensus is it's most likely a western Balkan lineage, so Illyrian/ Proto-Illyrian/Thracian. At the present time we just need to wait for more information to be sure.

slamberty
05-07-2021, 08:17 PM
In my case I've been looking into Roman Legions/Auxiliary units from the Balkan region because that's the most likely scenario as to how my lineage got to where it did.

vettor
05-08-2021, 10:24 PM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-021-00897-8

this paper shows J2-L283 origins in southern Poland

https://i.postimg.cc/SK1cGWp9/j2b2.png (https://postimages.org/)

Principe
05-09-2021, 01:01 AM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-021-00897-8

this paper shows J2-L283 origins in southern Poland

https://i.postimg.cc/SK1cGWp9/j2b2.png (https://postimages.org/)

J-L283 based on ancient dna comes from the Caucasus, and it moved into the Balkans during the EBA and MBA, you can’t base origin based on modern samples, but thanks for the graphs, interesting theory.

Johane Derite
05-09-2021, 08:39 AM
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-021-00897-8

this paper shows J2-L283 origins in southern Poland

https://i.postimg.cc/SK1cGWp9/j2b2.png (https://postimages.org/)

can you provide the map of EV13-CTS1273 also?

Polska
05-09-2021, 12:24 PM
44617

Johane Derite
05-09-2021, 02:02 PM
44617

Thank you kindly polska.

vettor
05-09-2021, 04:43 PM
J-L283 based on ancient dna comes from the Caucasus, and it moved into the Balkans during the EBA and MBA, you can’t base origin based on modern samples, but thanks for the graphs, interesting theory.

yes....the caucasus

https://i.postimg.cc/C1yPBHz9/L283.png (https://postimg.cc/wtVcnN5k)