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Principe
12-04-2017, 02:13 PM
This is meant to look at the overall findings of J2 in ancient dna, since not many samples were found and hopefully some upcoming papers will find more samples. If I miss any please inform.

I will split it for J2a and J2b

The oldest J2a sample so far is from Mesolithic Iran along with the oldest J2b also being found in Early Neolithic Western Iran both being basal clades suggesting a birth from around there, this is exactly during the time of the Zarzian Culture, it is very likely that J1 and J2 were both present and expanded initially from this culture. There was extensive contacts between the Zarzian Culture and the Caucasus, possibly the Levant as well.

J2a

J2a-Z6049>SK1321 appears in Mesolithic Caucasus at Kotias Kide, being anywhere from 700-1000 years younger than the Mesolithic Iranian J2a.

J2a-Z6049>Z6048 was found in Neolithic Farmers from the site of Barcin in Anatolia.

J2a-Z6055 was found in Neolithic Farmers in Hungary, his autosomal was 95% Neolithic Farmer.

J2a2-PF5008 was in Copper Age West Iran, is associated with Iran Chalcolithic.

J2a-M319 was found in 2 Minoans

J2a-L26 Basal was found in a Mycenaean from Troezon

J2a-Z7671>Z30685 was found in the late Bronze Age Kyjatice Culture in Hungary (BR2), the line itself was probably entered Europe in the Early Bronze Age.

J2a2-PF5008>PF4993 was found in Sary-Bel Kurgan (Russian Altai) during the Iron Age, most likely a Scythian, and this line was very likely picked up from Iran.

J2a2-PF5008>PF4993 was also found again in Kytmanovo Altai in the early Medieval Age.

There is also 2 J2a-M67's and a J2b? found in Merovingian samples unfortunately no further analysis was done.

There is also 2 Neolithic Hungarian and 2 Neolithic Austrian farmers that belong to J2a but no further analysis has been done, they will likely belong either to J2a-Z6055 or J2a-Z6048 based on the 2 Neolithic Farmers that belonged to these clades.

There is also a Khazar J2a that has not been further tested that dates to the early medieval era.

Seeing how very little J2a has been found in ancient samples and the diversity of subclades being even smaller makes the upcoming findings even more interesting, at the moment it looks like J2a-PF5008 and J2a-M319 spread with Iran Neolithic/Chalcolithic expansions, it is very likely that J2a-Z30685 also spread with this component seeing that it is also found in Samaritans and in Armenians. As for J2a-SK1321 is still found primarily in the Caucasus. J2a-Z6048 and J2a-Z6055 are Neolithic farmer lineages and expanded in all directions as they are found in Europe, the Middle East and South Asia.

J2b

J2b-M205 was found in Ain Ghazal Bronze Age Jordan

J2b-L283 was found in Bronze Age Croatia, being very likely a proto Illyrian.

J2b-M205 was found in Bronze Age Sidon Lebanon

J2b-L283>Z600 was found in late Bronze Age Armenia, he is also Western shifting

J2b-M205 was found in 1st Millennium BC Egypt

J2b-M205 was found in Roman Gladiator and was of Middle Eastern origin (either Levantine or Egyptian, with Egyptian being more likely based on his autosomal).

Like J2a, J2b has been rarely found especially in the J-M241 lineages, there is only 2 J2b-L283 samples found so far and it really seems that J2b-L283 lineages expanded with the Indo-Europeans, it probably got absorbed from the Maykop Culture (My prediction). As for J2b-M205 it is very clear this line expanded with Semitic speakers especially where it was found and the dates as well.

Trojet
12-06-2017, 03:38 PM
Great thread Principe!

As you know, I'm more interested in J2b-L283, and I pretty much agree with what you said about this branch considering what's known so far. Besides the theory that J2b-L283 expanded as an Indo-European marker (Maykop?), the alternative hypothesis I have is that it expanded from the Italian territory or the area around the Adriatic. However, this would mean that J2b-L283 (TMRCA 6000 ybp) came to Europe in the Neolithic and the LBA Armenian is a back-migration from Balkan/Europe, which seems unlikely, and therefore the Bronze Age I-E expansion makes more sense at the moment.

You mentioned that the LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600* is "Western" shifted. I find this interesting. I'm not too good with Autosomal, but I wonder if this could mean he migrated from further West or even North.

Principe
12-06-2017, 04:28 PM
Great thread Principe!

As you know, I'm more interested in J2b-L283, and I pretty much agree with what you said about this branch considering what's known so far. Besides the theory that J2b-L283 expanded as an Indo-European marker (Maykop?), the alternative hypothesis I have is that it expanded from the Italian territory or the area around the Adriatic. However, this would mean that J2b-L283 (TMRCA 6000 ybp) came to Europe in the Neolithic and the LBA Armenian is a back-migration from Balkan/Europe, which seems unlikely, and therefore the Bronze Age I-E expansion makes more sense at the moment.

You mentioned that the LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600* is "Western" shifted. I find this interesting. I'm not too good with Autosomal, but I wonder if this could mean he migrated from further West or even North.

Thanks very much Trojet :)

Autosomal is not my forte either, but the LBA Armenian does have Western or Steppe DNA, his Gedmatch kit is M263493, you can see on various calculators he comes out 30% EHG like which is a lot and on Gedrosia Neolithic K13 his 3 way population has him coming off as half Albanian plus a quarter Georgian and a quarter Steppe and all of his 2 way populations give him as part Turkish or Armenian and half Steppe. But what's interesting also is the J2b-L283 found in Bronze Age Croatia also comes out as 30% EHG/Steppe. In my opinion Maykop makes a lot of sense, probably was originally a Caucasian/Iran Neolithic marker and once in Maykop it got Indo-Europeanized and spread afterwards, this would easily explain why they haven't found it in the Pontic Steppe because it was more South in Caucasus.

I forgot to write that the closest population that resembles LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600 is Abkhasian and Adygei which is roughly the 2 populations that inhabit the areas that was the Maykop culture.

Kanenas
12-06-2017, 10:30 PM
Thanks very much Trojet :)

Autosomal is not my forte either, but the LBA Armenian does have Western or Steppe DNA, his Gedmatch kit is M263493, you can see on various calculators he comes out 30% EHG like which is a lot and on Gedrosia Neolithic K13 his 3 way population has him coming off as half Albanian plus a quarter Georgian and a quarter Steppe and all of his 2 way populations give him as part Turkish or Armenian and half Steppe. But what's interesting also is the J2b-L283 found in Bronze Age Croatia also comes out as 30% EHG/Steppe. In my opinion Maykop makes a lot of sense, probably was originally a Caucasian/Iran Neolithic marker and once in Maykop it got Indo-Europeanized and spread afterwards, this would easily explain why they haven't found it in the Pontic Steppe because it was more South in Caucasus.

I forgot to write that the closest population that resembles LBA Armenian J2b-L283>Z600 is Abkhasian and Adygei which is roughly the 2 populations that inhabit the areas that was the Maykop culture.

What is the Gedmatch kit of the BA Croatian one?

Gravetto-Danubian
12-07-2017, 12:24 AM
delete

Gravetto-Danubian
12-07-2017, 12:26 AM
I'm not sure which one is the J2b, but here are MLBA as well as earlier ancient Armenians modelled on the basic ancient sources with nMonte PCoA, for an overview.

20274

The MLBA certainly have EHG admixture, as already pointed out in the paper.
However some of EHG was also present in the Chalcolithic, but fell away completely during the EBA, to come back again after 2200 BC.

It suggests that (i) there was an early contact between Armenia and north of Caucasus since 4000 BC, perhaps 5000BC, corresponding with EHG appearing south and CHG north.
EHG drops away during to zero in the EBA (Kura-Araxes culture), suggesting it represents the expansion of a new group with notably different affinity.
The return of steppe admixture parallels the appearance of kurgan type burials in the middle Bronze Age, in parts of Armenia, etc.

Trojet
12-07-2017, 11:43 AM
What is the Gedmatch kit of the BA Croatian one?

That sample comes from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616

The raw data is not available yet. The components come from what was reported on the paper.

Piquerobi
12-07-2017, 01:09 PM
Quite informative, thanks!

Piquerobi
12-07-2017, 10:53 PM
It would be interesting for comparison a post on "the history of J1". :)

Agamemnon
12-08-2017, 12:06 AM
It would be interesting for comparison a post on "the history of J1". :)

I'll probably open that thread when the upcoming Chalcolithic and Bronze Age data from Israel is released.

Kelmendasi
12-08-2017, 10:39 PM
I'll probably open that thread when the upcoming Chalcolithic and Bronze Age data from Israel is released.
When will they be released? J1-Z2313 will most probably show up imo

Agamemnon
12-09-2017, 01:04 AM
When will they be released? J1-Z2313 will most probably show up imo

I was expecting them in October, it's taking longer than I expected (I hope they included samples from other sites).

Kelmendasi
12-09-2017, 01:53 PM
I was expecting them in October, it's taking longer than I expected (I hope they included samples from other sites).
Damn, it's December now xD. Hopefully they release them soon

Principe
01-05-2018, 03:39 PM
This is all theory but I have been looking at the Yfull chart of J2 and looking at the formation and TMRCA dates, with additions to looking at the surrounding cultures to put into historical context.

To start there seems to be a migration of J2 into South Asia around 8000-6500 ybp, the following lines correlate with this J2b-Z2433 (J2b-M241),J2a-M68 (J2a-Z6057), J2a-Y15604 (J2a-F3133) and J2a-YSC246 (J2a-PF5197). Some R2a lines and G1 seem to expand with J2 in this particular migration, well at least formations and TMRCA matches.

Then I took a look at what could have expanded during the Shulaveri-Shomu culture which lasted pretty long and all of these J2's have lines expanded throughout the duration. The lines are J-M92 (J2a-Z500) which alone is a large line, J-Y11200 (J2a-Z7671), J-CTS6804 (J2a-Z7671) essentially most J-Z7671, and J-Y20569 (J2a-L198). What's interesting is that G-M406 lineages are also expanding around this time and these 4 J2a's and G-M406 are usually found together, so there may be more to it.

Then there is the lineages which could be potentially linked with Halaf/Hassuna/Ubaid culture expansion, which doesn't follow the exact same patterns as the lineages above but is nevertheless expanding to the South. J-L243 (J2a-PF4888), J-M205 (J2b-M205) extremely likely basically 100% based on ancient dna, J-F3133 lineages, and J-PF5177 lineages. Coincide with J1-L817 and J1-Z1853.

Then we have Kura Araxes Culture expansion, what's interesting is that following J2's have huge bottlenecks before this era, they mostly belong to J-Z6065 and J-Z467 lineages, we have J-Y37496 (J2a-Z6065), J-S21160 (J2a-Z467), J-P279 (J2a2-L581), J-L210 (J2a-Z467), J-M47 (J2a-Z6065), and J2a-FGC15901 (J2a-Z6065). Now it doesn't necessarily mean these are guaranteed Kura Araxes lines but it is interesting that these lines emerge during this period, and J-M47 is a good candidate for a Sumerian line and J-P279 for Elamite, but well have to wait and see.

These are not all the lineages as for some I had a hard time placing. This is merely theory and observation.

ddugas
01-11-2018, 03:22 PM
Very intersting Principe. Thanks. I manage a surname project with a F3133 lineage and a P279 lineage (same last name). My data has always suggested that the P279 might have existed in a geographical area more associated with the Halaf/Hassuna/Ubaid while the F3133 would be a great candidate for Elamite...sort of the opposite of what you propose above. I was wondering what specifically drew you to the conclusions on F3133 and P279.

For me, I see quite a bit of P279 in Lebanese, while I suspect the highest frequencies of F3133 are Iran and Arabian Gulf as well as being a bit less frequent in areas like Lebanon. In short, I see F3133 frequencies and likely variance spiking much further east than P279.

Principe
01-11-2018, 04:39 PM
Very intersting Principe. Thanks. I manage a surname project with a F3133 lineage and a P279 lineage (same last name). My data has always suggested that the P279 might have existed in a geographical area more associated with the Halaf/Hassuna/Ubaid while the F3133 would be a great candidate for Elamite...sort of the opposite of what you propose above. I was wondering what specifically drew you to the conclusions on F3133 and P279.

For me, I see quite a bit of P279 in Lebanese, while I suspect the highest frequencies of F3133 are Iran and Arabian Gulf as well as being a bit less frequent in areas like Lebanon. In short, I see F3133 frequencies and likely variance spiking much further east than P279.

My pleasure ddugas. Really good points thanks. Well for me what was part of my conclusion (not 100% set in stone a BigY or ancient dna can change my opinion) was that J-P279 suffered a large bottleneck of 4000 years with its father clade PF4993, while F3133 is expanding during the same time of this bottleneck, the J-Y17404's oldest member is found in a Syrian at 6300 ybp, though I agree that it seems F3133 was born in the East probably Central Iran and had branches expanding in both directions. There is branches in F3133 that can be Elamite and Hassuna/Halaf/Ubaid.

ddugas
01-11-2018, 05:46 PM
The timing of these clades is so critical to understanding their dispersal. Also something I have not focused on as much as geography and frequency. Thanks for those comments. I keep a map of FGC9961 which is a subset of F3133 here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1YOL-YUiWEcn8HZL9lcGS0_ZCgnE&hl=en&ll=35.20183173820512%2C-0.6221008499999243&z=3

Of course the map suffers from sample bias. Iran is the big piece missing. It is likely the source of FGC9961 but Grugni 2012, which was a good paper for L24 overall, did not type any further downstream.

I do have access to geno data and noted that J-F3369 was found in a Parsi Zoroastrian participant. Also here is a draft map I have been playing with-its a work in progress but is in line with your comments above.

https://imgur.com/a/KoiST


PS...I'm in Ottawa. You?

Best,

Principe
01-11-2018, 07:39 PM
The timing of these clades is so critical to understanding their dispersal. Also something I have not focused on as much as geography and frequency. Thanks for those comments. I keep a map of FGC9961 which is a subset of F3133 here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1YOL-YUiWEcn8HZL9lcGS0_ZCgnE&hl=en&ll=35.20183173820512%2C-0.6221008499999243&z=3

Of course the map suffers from sample bias. Iran is the big piece missing. It is likely the source of FGC9961 but Grugni 2012, which was a good paper for L24 overall, did not type any further downstream.

I do have access to geno data and noted that J-F3369 was found in a Parsi Zoroastrian participant. Also here is a draft map I have been playing with-its a work in progress but is in line with your comments above.

https://imgur.com/a/KoiST


PS...I'm in Ottawa. You?

Best,

Your maps are stunning, great job! B)

Iran is definitely key, I would also include Iraq and Syria which not many samples have been taken, these areas are crucial for the understanding of J2.

My pleasure,

And I'm from Montreal.

Edward J
01-11-2018, 10:13 PM
Any thoughts on Z387 and associated subclades?

Cheers!

Principe
01-12-2018, 02:00 AM
Any thoughts on Z387 and associated subclades?

Cheers!

J-Z387 lineages are one of the harder ones to put a theory on, J-L70 is really the difficult one, J-FGC35503 lineages had a large bottleneck 2700 years, it can be a Kura Araxes or Ubaid lineage seeing that oldest samples seem to be Lebanon its likely a Iran Chalco lineage that spread West and South.

Edward J
01-12-2018, 02:06 PM
J-Z387 lineages are one of the harder ones to put a theory on, J-L70 is really the difficult one, J-FGC35503 lineages had a large bottleneck 2700 years, it can be a Kura Araxes or Ubaid lineage seeing that oldest samples seem to be Lebanon its likely a Iran Chalco lineage that spread West and South.

Thanks Principe! It will be interesting in the coming years to see the Y-Tree blossom closer to the genealogical age.

My subclade under FGC 35503 is J-Z39973 (TMRA 2200 YBP), and using YFull tree, FTDNA projects, and STR matching, potential members seem to largely be a mix of western European and northern Caucasus dwellers. I think we will be able to further define splits as full sequencing becomes more affordable.

Principe
01-12-2018, 03:22 PM
Thanks Principe! It will be interesting in the coming years to see the Y-Tree blossom closer to the genealogical age.

My subclade under FGC 35503 is J-Z39973 (TMRA 2200 YBP), and using YFull tree, FTDNA projects, and STR matching, potential members seem to largely be a mix of western European and northern Caucasus dwellers. I think we will be able to further define splits as full sequencing becomes more affordable.

My Pleasure :)

I agree with your points, would also be nice if they find an ancient sample of FGC35503 too would certainly help find the origin.

jkochiss
01-26-2018, 03:44 AM
Hi Principe,
I am a Y37496 from the z6065 you mentioned earlier. We are just now getting on Yfull and there are about 50 of us in the Cluster. My group comes from England along the Welsh Border and some into Scotland. Our closest STR matches are all of the Armenians and some Georgians and ethnic Armenians in Turkey. Any ideas as to why that is? Some research shows that we could be Norman but i would love to know our migration out of Armenia. The Armenian we are closest to in STRs comes from a place that is now central Turkey. We have more big y’s coming through that should help the dating.

Principe
01-26-2018, 04:07 AM
Hi Principe,
I am a Y37496 from the z6065 you mentioned earlier. We are just now getting on Yfull and there are about 50 of us in the Cluster. My group comes from England along the Welsh Border and some into Scotland. Our closest STR matches are all of the Armenians and some Georgians and ethnic Armenians in Turkey. Any ideas as to why that is? Some research shows that we could be Norman but i would love to know our migration out of Armenia. The Armenian we are closest to in STRs comes from a place that is now central Turkey. We have more big y’s coming through that should help the dating.

Hi jkochiss,

That is great news to hear that many BigY are on their way! :)

Well when it comes to Z6065 branches all seem to be expanding from roughly the same time frame of the Kura Araxes Culture which expanded in all directions East, West and South. So your ancestor could have been in Armenia or East/Central Turkey, maybe the Levant for some time probably until the Roman times, then probably migrated to France (in the case it turns out to be Norman).

J Man
01-28-2018, 02:10 AM
Hi jkochiss,

That is great news to hear that many BigY are on their way! :)

Well when it comes to Z6065 branches all seem to be expanding from roughly the same time frame of the Kura Araxes Culture which expanded in all directions East, West and South. So your ancestor could have been in Armenia or East/Central Turkey, maybe the Levant for some time probably until the Roman times, then probably migrated to France (in the case it turns out to be Norman).

I am also Z6065+ and I belong to the J-YP879* sub-clade.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6065/

Principe
01-28-2018, 04:01 AM
I am also Z6065+ and I belong to the J-YP879* sub-clade.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6065/

Cool B)

Why don’t you put J2a-FGC15901 or YP879 as under your Y-DNA!

J Man
01-28-2018, 05:11 AM
Cool B)

Why don’t you put J2a-FGC15901 or YP879 as under your Y-DNA!

Done! :)

Principe
02-23-2018, 05:31 PM
Thanks to Trojet we have an update on the J2b-L283 from Bronze Age Dalmatia who turned out to be J-Y15058

Trojet
02-23-2018, 05:50 PM
Thanks to Trojet we have an update on the J2b-L283 from Bronze Age Dalmatia who turned out to be J-Y15058

Considering the Bronze Age Dalmatian sample and modern diversity, I think J-L283>>Z2507 (TMRCA 4400 ybp) was already in the (Western) Balkans when it expanded into Z638 and Y15058. If we look at some cultures in the region, I think Vucedol or Cetina would be very good candidates.

J Man
02-23-2018, 05:51 PM
Thanks to Trojet we have an update on the J2b-L283 from Bronze Age Dalmatia who turned out to be J-Y15058

An early relative of many modern day Albanians. ;)

Principe
02-23-2018, 06:06 PM
Considering the Bronze Age Dalmatian sample and modern diversity, I think J-L283>>Z2507 (TMRCA 4400 ybp) was already in the (Western) Balkans when it expanded into Z638 and Y15058. If we look at some cultures in the region, I think Vucedol or Cetina would be very good candidates.

Yeah does seem to be the case even with early splits of Z2507, I think Cetina Culture could be the result of J2b-L283 arrival to the area and Vucedol is a good candidate for the oldest J2b-L283 in Europe.

Principe
02-23-2018, 06:07 PM
An early relative of many modern day Albanians. ;)

He sure is and gives stronger evidence to the Albanian-Illyrian connection B)

Principe
02-24-2018, 04:15 AM
Thanks to the great work of Trojet :) we have 2 confirmed J2a-Z6048’s in Neolithic Austria, samples I5068 and I5207. This confirms that J2a-Z6048’s were among the Anatolian Neolithic Farmer lineages.

Arslanbek
03-05-2018, 08:21 PM
🤔 very interesting

Arslanbek
03-05-2018, 08:23 PM
My subclade under FGC 35503 is J-Z39973 (TMRA 2200 YBP), and using YFull tree, FTDNA projects, and STR matching, potential members seem to largely be a mix of western European and northern Caucasus dwellers. I think we will be able to further define splits as full sequencing becomes more affordable.

Hi, Edward!
It seems to me that you are the one of my closest neighbors on Yfull tree)
I’m J-Z39975*
(J2 – J-M410 – J-PF4610 – J-L26 – J-PF5087 – J-PF5160 – J-L24 – J-L25 – J-Z438 – J-Z387 – J-Y17949 – J-FGC35461 – J-FGC35489 – J-Z39975 – J-Z43045 – J-Z39975*)
I’m on Facebook - Arslan Kodzokua

Principe
03-07-2018, 04:58 AM
A big thank you to Trojet for running the snps for sample I5078 from Sopot Neolithic :) I5078 turned out to be J2a-Y13128 under J2a-Z6055>Z6057, now being the second Neolithic farmer sample under J2a-Z6055 other being found in Neolithic Hungary. Which based on these results that J2a-Z6055 along with J2a-Z6048 were involved in the Anatolian Neolithic Farmer migrations. This matches previous finds and concludes that both J2a-Z6055 and J2a-Z6048 were involved with the diffusion of Farming.

Davide
04-15-2018, 05:10 PM
Hi !
I'm Y-18039 (CTS8204).
Any information about ?

TuaMan
04-15-2018, 05:23 PM
Does anyone have any theories on where J1 and J2 may have diverged?

J Man
04-15-2018, 05:43 PM
Does anyone have any theories on where J1 and J2 may have diverged?

Based on what we have so far likely somewhere in the area of northern Iran to the South Caucasus.

Principe
04-15-2018, 08:10 PM
Hi !
I'm Y-18039 (CTS8204).
Any information about ?

In ancient dna it hasn’t been found yet, looking at Yfull looks like a Middle Eastern line.

Principe
05-13-2018, 07:34 PM
Well there is some updates

Big News for J2a-FGC9962 and special thanks to ddugas and open genomes for processing the samples from 137 genomes across Eurasian Steppes.

From this paper we have 7 samples under J2a-FGC9962 and 1 under J2a-PF4993.

We have 3 Tian Shan Saka (Scythians) including one who belongs to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and the other 2 staying at the FGC9962 level.

We have 2 Karakhanids that are also under J2a-FGC9962.

And finally 2 Karluks belonging to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32507.

Additionally from the paper we have a medieval Nomad from Tian Shan that carries J2a2-L581>PF4993.

In terms of what this all means in their history and how it relates to the History of J2, well seeing that FGC9962 was found and there is 2 downstreams of it found throughout the ages would suggest that J2a-FGC9962 is from the area or near by. Thus the best candidate would be the original inhabitants of the BMAC or Oxus civilization. This was a very civilized culture that had an extensive trading routes with near by cultures such as IVC and Elamites. They also had a profound influence on the incoming Indo Aryans and Indo Iranians.

The History of BMAC or Oxus Civilization is very interesting and I'll post the wiki article just for a base in understanding its history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

I will also post the Full Tree of J2a-FGC9962

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y14698/

As for Medieval Nomad that was J2a-PF4993 at the moment its historical presence is not really understood based on the age of the sample and hopefully further ancient dna papers will find more samples under this subclade to understand its history.

Principe
05-13-2018, 10:25 PM
Further updates in light of the new paper involving the first horse herders and Bronze Age Anatolia.

We have 5 new J2a's from this paper and thanks to the work of Open Genomes and 167273 we have further snp analysis.

The first older two come from the Chalcolithic site of Namazga and one belongs to J2a-PF5197>YSC0000253, unfortunately the other sample is of lower coverage but could be deduced to belong to J2a-L24.

Yfull Tree of J2a-YSC0000253

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YSC0000253/

Historically this would make J2a-YSC0000253 a lineage of the original BMAC or Oxus civilization before Indo-Ayran and Indo-Iranian expansions, and thus with the results from the 137 genomes from the Eurasian Steppe we now know that J2a-YSC0000253 and J2a-FGC9962 (Y14698) were lineages of the original BMAC people. It will be possible that more branches of J2a and possibly J2b will discovered in belonging to the original Oxus or BMAC civilization, this will definitely be updated once the Central and South Asian paper samples will be released.

As for their spread into the area, it is very likely but will need ancient dna to confirm, is the Jeitun Culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitun

The next three come from Bronze Age Anatolia, the first 2 date to the old Hittite period and the other is from Early Bronze Age Anatolia II. The results for them are two J2a-Z467>Z6271 (S21160) and the other belongs to J2a-Z6065>Y37496.

These three results are the remnants of the previous Early Bronze Age and Chalcolithic Anatolian Cultures, and it is very likely with high confidence that they are the first three Hattic samples that we have, there is of course the possibility that they may belong to the Kura Araxes Culture but more sampling of the area will be needed to see.

The Yfull charts of both J2a-Z6271 and J2a-Y37496

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z6271/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y37496/

I am also posting the wiki article of the Hattians as they are an interesting civilization, as well as the article on the Hittites in which the samples belonging in this era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

I am hopeful that more samples from the area and surrounding areas will be published so a more complete history can be told of the expansion of J2a-PF5116 lineages.

J Man
05-14-2018, 05:15 PM
Well there is some updates

Big News for J2a-FGC9962 and special thanks to ddugas and open genomes for processing the samples from 137 genomes across Eurasian Steppes.

From this paper we have 7 samples under J2a-FGC9962 and 1 under J2a-PF4993.

We have 3 Tian Shan Saka (Scythians) including one who belongs to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and the other 2 staying at the FGC9962 level.

We have 2 Karakhanids that are also under J2a-FGC9962.

And finally 2 Karluks belonging to J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32741 and J2a-Z7706>FGC9962>FGC32507.

Additionally from the paper we have a medieval Nomad from Tian Shan that carries J2a2-L581>PF4993.

In terms of what this all means in their history and how it relates to the History of J2, well seeing that FGC9962 was found and there is 2 downstreams of it found throughout the ages would suggest that J2a-FGC9962 is from the area or near by. Thus the best candidate would be the original inhabitants of the BMAC or Oxus civilization. This was a very civilized culture that had an extensive trading routes with near by cultures such as IVC and Elamites. They also had a profound influence on the incoming Indo Aryans and Indo Iranians.

The History of BMAC or Oxus Civilization is very interesting and I'll post the wiki article just for a base in understanding its history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

I will also post the Full Tree of J2a-FGC9962

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y14698/

As for Medieval Nomad that was J2a-PF4993 at the moment its historical presence is not really understood based on the age of the sample and hopefully further ancient dna papers will find more samples under this subclade to understand its history.

Here is a link to the archaeological description of the Eurasian Steppe Y-DNA haplogroup J2a samples burials. The DA124 Issyk Medieval Nomad burial and the DA203 and DA204 Karakhanid samples are the only ones where the actual individual burials are described in detail. The Baskiya-1 burial ground where the J2a DA57, DA58 and DA59 Tian Shan Saka remains are found is described but the individual burials for some reason are not described in detail which is rather unfortunate. Also I can't find any information about the DA222 and DA230 Karluk samples burials anywhere.

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41586-018-0094-2/MediaObjects/41586_2018_94_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

J Man
05-16-2018, 06:00 PM
Here is the description of the DA124 Medieval Issyk Nomad sample that belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a....Not much information is given about the skull or skeleton that this DNA sample was taken from though for some reason.

''The Medieval Issyk nomad
By Gulmira Mukhtarova
Bone samples were taken from a skull found in a burial site in the territory of Issyk Mogilnik, located
50-55 km east of the city of Almaty, that spans both sides of the Issyk River in the immediate vicinity
of the town of Issyk at the center of the Enbekshikazakh district of the Almaty region.
Recent data has shown that the cemetery covers a larger area than previously thought, including both
banks of the river Issyk, extending for up to 10 km. More than 300 medium and large burial mounds
have been identified in this necropolis, together with a large number of smaller ones (i.e. <0.5 m in
height). One of the four parts of the cemetery has been completely covered by the residential and
commercial buildings of the city of Issyk. Other parts have also been subjected to demolition or
modification in the course of human activities.
The location of the Issyk necropolis has been known since 1936. The most significant expedition to the
site was that of 1969-70. Arising from rescue excavations following construction of a parking lot, a
royal burial ground was found that had been undisturbed by robbers. This burial site is known as the
"Golden Man".''

Jack Johnson
11-25-2018, 03:38 AM
I know this is an older thread, but I have been interested as of late as to the origins of J2 in Europe, especially J2a. I have looked at a few ancient samples and one that sticks out to me is the FEB3 and FEB3a/I1902 samples. Now I have looked at both of the papers these samples were reported in and it appears that these two may be the same person, for in the first paper Szecsenyi-Nagy 2015, FEB3 was reported as having just mtdna haplogroup H, and now in the most recent paper Lipson et al 2017, FEB3a/I1902 is reported as having H44, and a more specific subclade of J2 (J2a-L152). Also being reported as FEB3a leads me to believe that this is more of an updated sample, rather than a new sample.

Principe
12-28-2018, 04:48 PM
Alright guys further updates on J2 based on ancient samples, the first sample to mention is an update on the Mycenaean sample that is solely classified as J2a-L26 from the Mycenaean site of Troezen, it turns out that he is positive for Z6057 but the sample is of lower quality and thus further downstream analysis is not possible. What does this mean in terms of history, well seeing how Z6057 has appeared in the Neolithic Sopot culture and Lengyel Cultures of Croatia and Hungary respectively , its possible that Z6057 could have been a Neolithic marker in Greece as well and makes this sample a local inhabitants that admixed with the new incoming Greek speakers, a second option can be that as the ancestors of the Mycenaeans came down to Greece they mixed with the local farmers of Carpathian mountain range bring Z6057 down with them.

Principe
12-28-2018, 06:24 PM
Now an update with samples from the Greater Caucasus paper.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/16/322347?rss=1&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

At the moment we have 5 confirmed J2 samples from this paper 4 of which have been further analyzed and 1 which we are awaiting the final results I2051 which is J2a. Amongst the 4 analyzed samples we have 1 J2b and 3 J2a. We can thank Trojet for excellent work on doing the Y snp calls. :)

The J2b belongs to J2b-L283*, this is a huge result, the sample is KDC001 and belongs to the Middle Bronze Age Northern Caucasus, this is now the third time we J2b-L283 in ancient dna, we have another L283* amongst the later Late Bronze Age Armenian samples and amongst the Middle Bronze Age Croatia in which the sample belongs to J2b-L283>Y15058*. What this result proves is that L283 sometime in past merged into the Steppe populations and became an IE marker and was important in the IE migrations into the Balkans, in fact the Croatian result would suggest that it is a Proto-Illyrian. L283 came in via the North whereas majority of J2 spread with Iran Neo/CHL/CHG, the mystery remains when L283 entered the Steppe population a Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age entry would be the most plausible, the most reasonable scenario would include somewhere between Z600 and Z615 (somewhere around 5400-4700 ybp) would make the most sense as the result of KDC001 seems to be closer related to the local Caucasian groups and the LBA Armenian sample is over 30% Steppe and at the same terminal clade, in other words we have 2 extinct branches at the same level and we the Croatian sample that has further designation, we know that 2 branches under L283 entered the Pontic Steppe. L283 entering can be similar to how R1b-V1636 which was found in the Chalcholithic Steppe made it into further Kura Araxes samples later on, L283 could have been brought in through cultural interactions either via Maykop proper or through Leyla Tepe which is bound to have been similar to Haji Faruz (samples awaiting to be published but 2 J2b's have been found).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

As for our three analyzed J2a samples they all belong J2a-Y11200 which is under the J2a-Z7671 branch. This comes to no surprise as today Z7671 is by far the most common J2a branch in the Caucasus followed by J2a-Z6048>SK1321 (which was found in Kotias Kide). The samples include I6266 and I6268 which are Maykop samples and I2056 which is a Chalcolithic sample dating from roughly 6477 or 6500 ybp this would suggest that Y11200 has an old presence in the Caucasus and that the Z30677 branch was born in the Caucasus, the results of the Maykop samples make the TMRCA of Z30677 a bit dubious since the Maykop samples are younger than Z30677's TMRCA its possible that Z30677 is in fact younger than estimated. The Chalcolithic sample also suggests that the original language of the Y11200 was not Northeast Caucasian as this language family was likely brought in by the Kura Araxes Culture, Y11200 original cultural language could have been Northwestern Caucasian or Kartvelian, apart from the linguistic association the migration of Y11200 is not associated with the migration of Kura Araxes and was brought in earlier, Shulaveri-Shomu Culture is a likely candidate as it is believed to be influenced by Halaf and Hassuna which would make sense with the increased Iran Neolithic admixture, as we see this component is associated with the movement of J lineages during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age periods.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y11200/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulaveri-Shomu_culture

sheepslayer
12-29-2018, 10:35 PM
Neat stuff. The one thing that puzzles me is the extent of the "MRCA horizon", or when J2a branches began forming in the Caucasus, and when they formed elsewhere. I'd like to figure out which SNP definitively marked the dawn of the Caucasian branches, whether it was as old as Z7671 or as new as Z30677.
YFull's tree makes clear distinctions for this set of SNPs. It's obvious which branches are Chechen, Saudi, and Caribbean. For this reason Y23162* sticks out like a sore thumb with its exclusively West Euro results. I'm too poor to afford a full sequence, but I have little doubt that's where I would fall. My curiosity is unbounded regarding just how this branch made it into Europe unlike its brothers.

Principe
12-29-2018, 10:50 PM
Neat stuff. The one thing that puzzles me is the extent of the "MRCA horizon", or when J2a branches began forming in the Caucasus, and when they formed elsewhere. I'd like to figure out which SNP definitively marked the dawn of the Caucasian branches, whether it was as old as Z7671 or as new as Z30677.
YFull's tree makes clear distinctions for this set of SNPs. It's obvious which branches are Chechen, Saudi, and Caribbean. For this reason Y23162* sticks out like a sore thumb with its exclusively West Euro results. I'm too poor to afford a full sequence, but I have little doubt that's where I would fall. My curiosity is unbounded regarding just how this branch made it into Europe unlike its brothers.

Honestly we'll more ancient samples to clear this out, Y11200 has been in the Caucasus for some as it's been there before Z30677's ancestor, and even that they found an ancient Y17946 in Bronze Age Hungary makes it even more difficult to be certain, the ancestor surely was born in the area and probably travelled West via Turkey and entered Southern Europe sometime during the Early Bronze Age from where it moved into Balkans and Central Europe, I doubt it came via the Steppe because we would see it much more defined like L283. There seems to have been a earlier migration from Caucasus and Fertile Crescent that brought some J2a branches into Turkey during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age.

J Man
12-30-2018, 12:26 AM
Now an update with samples from the Greater Caucasus paper.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/16/322347?rss=1&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

At the moment we have 5 confirmed J2 samples from this paper 4 of which have been further analyzed and 1 which we are awaiting the final results I2051 which is J2a. Amongst the 4 analyzed samples we have 1 J2b and 3 J2a. We can thank Trojet for excellent work on doing the Y snp calls. :)

The J2b belongs to J2b-L283*, this is a huge result, the sample is KDC001 and belongs to the Middle Bronze Age Northern Caucasus, this is now the third time we J2b-L283 in ancient dna, we have another L283* amongst the later Late Bronze Age Armenian samples and amongst the Middle Bronze Age Croatia in which the sample belongs to J2b-L283>Y15058*. What this result proves is that L283 sometime in past merged into the Steppe populations and became an IE marker and was important in the IE migrations into the Balkans, in fact the Croatian result would suggest that it is a Proto-Illyrian. L283 came in via the North whereas majority of J2 spread with Iran Neo/CHL/CHG, the mystery remains when L283 entered the Steppe population a Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age entry would be the most plausible, the most reasonable scenario would include somewhere between Z600 and Z615 (somewhere around 5400-4700 ybp) would make the most sense as the result of KDC001 seems to be closer related to the local Caucasian groups and the LBA Armenian sample is over 30% Steppe and at the same terminal clade, in other words we have 2 extinct branches at the same level and we the Croatian sample that has further designation, we know that 2 branches under L283 entered the Pontic Steppe. L283 entering can be similar to how R1b-V1636 which was found in the Chalcholithic Steppe made it into further Kura Araxes samples later on, L283 could have been brought in through cultural interactions either via Maykop proper or through Leyla Tepe which is bound to have been similar to Haji Faruz (samples awaiting to be published but 2 J2b's have been found).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

As for our three analyzed J2a samples they all belong J2a-Y11200 which is under the J2a-Z7671 branch. This comes to no surprise as today Z7671 is by far the most common J2a branch in the Caucasus followed by J2a-Z6048>SK1321 (which was found in Kotias Kide). The samples include I6266 and I6268 which are Maykop samples and I2056 which is a Chalcolithic sample dating from roughly 6477 or 6500 ybp this would suggest that Y11200 has an old presence in the Caucasus and that the Z30677 branch was born in the Caucasus, the results of the Maykop samples make the TMRCA of Z30677 a bit dubious since the Maykop samples are younger than Z30677's TMRCA its possible that Z30677 is in fact younger than estimated. The Chalcolithic sample also suggests that the original language of the Y11200 was not Northeast Caucasian as this language family was likely brought in by the Kura Araxes Culture, Y11200 original cultural language could have been Northwestern Caucasian or Kartvelian, apart from the linguistic association the migration of Y11200 is not associated with the migration of Kura Araxes and was brought in earlier, Shulaveri-Shomu Culture is a likely candidate as it is believed to be influenced by Halaf and Hassuna which would make sense with the increased Iran Neolithic admixture, as we see this component is associated with the movement of J lineages during the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age periods.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y11200/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulaveri-Shomu_culture

So then J2a-Z6048>SK1321 may be of local Mesolithic hunter-gatherer origin while J2a-Y11200 may have come to the Caucasus with Neolithic Shulaveri-Shomu migrants. Of course we need actual DNA from Shulaveri-Shomu remains to prove that.

Jack Johnson
01-03-2019, 09:30 AM
Great information and thanks for creating this J2 forum. I was wondering if there is an up to date list of all prehistoric J/J2 samples online. I was once a frequent reader of Jean Marco’s ancestral journeys website, and it was a great database but it seems to have been taken offline since her unfortunate passing. Also do you agree that FEB3 and FEB3a are the same and are the two Minoan J2 samples J2a-Z6055 aswell?

Principe
01-04-2019, 04:39 PM
Great information and thanks for creating this J2 forum. I was wondering if there is an up to date list of all prehistoric J/J2 samples online. I was once a frequent reader of Jean Marco’s ancestral journeys website, and it was a great database but it seems to have been taken offline since her unfortunate passing. Also do you agree that FEB3 and FEB3a are the same and are the two Minoan J2 samples J2a-Z6055 aswell?

I am not sure about FEB3 and FEB3a, and it is my pleasure :)

The two Minoan samples are J2a-M319 and they are the direct influence of Iran Neolithic/CHG movements across the Aegean during the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. This wave likely brought the speakers of the Minoan language or Linear A.

Principe
01-04-2019, 04:43 PM
An update from the Greater Caucasus paper as 2 more J2a’s were found. The J2a’s are samples I2051 and I2055.

Unfortunately I2051 is a sample of low quality and he remains at the M410 level, where as I2055 belongs to J2a-CTS900 and most likely Y11200 like the other three samples, this sample is also Chalcolithic in age and dates to 6500 ybp again this is further confirmation that Y11200 has been in the Caucasus since the Chalcolithic and that major branches were borm there.

Principe
04-13-2019, 04:56 PM
Thanks to poster 167273 for bring light to me this sample and for the molgen crew to analyze it. :)

We have a Crimean Ostrogoth who belongs to J2a1-Z500>Y6240, it is sample KER_1.

Autosomally he clusters with Anatolian Greeks so perhaps the paternal line thus Y62140* is related to the Greek colonies of Crimea, since it is from the Medieval ages and is not a downstream clade it will be hard to determine an origin or with which ancestral component Y6240 is a part of, nevertheless it is the first confirmed ancient sample under Z500.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6240/

Principe
04-13-2019, 05:14 PM
The large Iberian paper was quite informative producing 9 J samples of which 5 were identified as J2a.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Olalde_Science_IberiaTransect_0.pdf

These samples are somewhat special to me since these are the first samples that I analyzed myself, sadly three of the five J2a are not of great quality so downstreams were not able to be determined. The Greek Empurias samples I8202, I8205 and I8216 could not produce anything further than J as well as sample I8145.

Samples I12514 and I12515 belong to J2a-L26>PF4610>PF5119>L558>M319>Y16819, I12514 and I12514 are estimated to be alive between 900-1150 ybp and are listed as Muslim from Palau Castell de Betxi in Valencia. These samples are very likely to be directly related to a Middle Eastern Arab branch because Y16819 is an extremely rare branch of M319 and is the only M319 which seems to have a Middle Eastern origin, of course the sample is roughly 1000 years old and it belonging to an earlier wave can be excluded.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16819/

Sadly I3983 and I4054 are only positive until the Z1847 branch, Z1847 includes large branches like Z467, Z500 and Z7671 and these samples surely belong to a downstream but because of the quality it is impossible to know. Judging from the autosomal profile and the location of where they are from these samples they very likely represent a branch brought by the Phoenicians or their offshoot the Carthaginians.

The last J2a sample would be I12162 which was a Visigoth, that itself is fascinating and might somehow be related to the J2a seen in the Ostrogoth sample from the Crimea, though unfortunately sample I12162 is a very poor quality and seems to be negative for every branch under J2a which is impossible, so due to low coverage I was unable to accurately determine a J2a branch.

Principe
04-13-2019, 05:40 PM
A J2a1-L26 was found in the Huns, Avars and Conquering Hungarian paper. The J2a sample is identified as SH/81 and it is unfortunately a low quality sample and remains at the L26 level, according to its autosomal profile SH/81 should be of local origin perhaps representing a Pannonian lineage.