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Heir of Gandhara
12-04-2017, 08:57 PM
Hello,

I used 23&me services to get tested and I just want to share my results with you guys.

Into/history first: I belong to a quintessential salt range/pothwar Rajput tribe. I hail from a village situated in Jhelum district of the Pakistani Punjab. My 28th ancestor Raja Mal Dev embraced Islam in the 12th Century; and I come from the line of his second son Raja Jodh through his decendant Malik Darwesh Khan of Darapur. Being a general in the Mughal imperial army, Malik Darwesh Khan was involved in Mirza Hakim campaign, among many others. The current chief of the tribe also comes from this line.

Since we accepted Islam such a long time ago, we have been mostly marrying within the tribe for centuries. Outside the tribe, we marry among the Gakhars traditionally and among the Chibhs of Jammu rarely. Within the last 4 generations only one female ancestor(my maternal great mother's mother was a Gakhar) of mine was from outside the tribe. This lady and my 27th Great Grandfather Raja Jodh's mother (also Gakhar) are the only women, that I know for sure, who were from outside the tribe. From this knowledge we can extrapolate that I overwhelmingly belong to just one stock; with slight colorations primarily coming from the Gakhar gene pool.



Now to my DNA results:

My Y-DNA haplogroup is R-M417.
My mtDNA haplogroup is M52a.



My GenePlaze K-12 admixtures are as follow:

Western Euro Farmers: 2.2
Levant: 5.8
Neolithic Iran CHG: 23.8
Eastern Euro Farmer: 5.6
Total Ancient farmer: 37.4

Scythian: 14.5
Andronova: 13.5
Yamnaya: 7.4
Total Steppe: 35.3

Southeast Eurasia: 24.3

East African: 1.9
Total African: 1.9

Eastern Non African 1.2




My Harappa GEDMatch results are as follow:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2017, 09:01 PM
Hello,

I used 23&me services to get tested and I just want to share my results with you guys.

Into/history first: I belong to a quintessential salt range/pothwar Rajput tribe. I hail from a village situated in Jhelum district of the Pakistani Punjab. My 28th ancestor Raja Mal Dev embraced Islam in the 12th Century; and I come from the line of his second son Raja Jodh through his decendant Malik Darwesh Khan of Darapur. Being a general in the Mughal imperial army, Malik Darwesh Khan was involved in Mirza Hakim campaign, among many others. The current chief of the tribe also comes from this line.

Since we accepted Islam such a long time ago, we have been mostly marrying within the tribe for centuries. Outside the tribe, we marry among the Gakhars traditionally and among the Chibhs of Jammu rarely. Within the last 4 generations only one female ancestor(my maternal great mother's mother was a Gakhar) of mine was from outside the tribe. This lady and my 27th Great Grandfather Raja Jodh's mother (also Gakhar) are the only women, that I know for sure, who were from outside the tribe. From this knowledge we can extrapolate that I overwhelmingly belong to just one stock; with slight colorations primarily coming from the Gakhar gene pool.



Now to my DNA results:

My Y-DNA haplogroup is R-M417.
My mtDNA haplogroup is M52a.



My GenePlaze K-12 admixtures are as follow:

Western Euro Farmers: 2.2
Levant: 5.8
Neolithic Iran CHG: 23.8
Eastern Euro Farmer: 5.6
Total Ancient farmer: 37.4

Scythian: 14.5
Andronova: 13.5
Yamnaya: 7.4
Total Steppe: 35.3

Southeast Eurasia: 24.3

East African: 1.9
Total African: 1.9

Eastern Non African 1.2




My Harappa GEDMatch results are as follow:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

Another Punjabi Bhra! R-M417 brotherhood mate.

About your results, It is very similar to Punjabi Khatris and Arains except you have higher East asian, which is expected of Potohar/kashmir/Jammu region. Other users from that regions score similar. Fairly typical results for a Northern punjabi.

Here's my K12 results for comparison, I'm Punjabi Sikh tarkhan (also known as Ramgarhia):

steppe cultures - 38.1%
karasuk-e scythian (2000-3000 years) - 20.2%
andronovo-srubnaya (3000-4000 years) - 8.4%
yamnaya-afanasievo-poltavka (4000-5000 years) - 9.5%

ancient farmers - 35.0%
west european farmers (4000-5000 years) - 0.0%
levant (4000-8000 years) - 5.1%
neolithic-chalcolithic iran-chg (5000-12000 years) - 15.6%
east european farmers (5000-8000 years) - 14.3%

southeast Eurasian - 21.3%

eastern non africans (modern) - 3.5%

western european & scandinavian hunter gatherers (4000-5000 years) - 1.0%

african - 1.0%
east african (modern) - 0.5%
west african (modern) - 0.5%

Heir of Gandhara
12-04-2017, 09:23 PM
Thanks a lot bro!

Did your family migrate from West Punjab?

Any insight on why my Neolithic Iran CHG is so high?

MonkeyDLuffy
12-04-2017, 10:07 PM
Thanks a lot bro!

Did your family migrate from West Punjab?

Any insight on why my Neolithic Iran CHG is so high?

Iran CHG is very ancient in the subcontinent, and seeing the location of Potohar, which is in middle of IVC civilizations, so it is kind of expected. Iran CHG even peaked in some users from South India.

And my Paternal grandfather moved from Chaman, balochistan. My mom and grandmom are both from East Punjab.

redifflal
12-04-2017, 11:11 PM
We have the same mtDNA. But I was under the impression mine was something in the eastern and northeastern part of subcontinent and also found among the Aeta tribe of Philippines (essentially a Negrito marker). The furthest my direct maternal line I've traced to is Tripura state.

Fascinating history btw. Welcome to the forum.

Heir of Gandhara
12-05-2017, 12:03 AM
We have the same mtDNA. But I was under the impression mine was something in the eastern and northeastern part of subcontinent and also found among the Aeta tribe of Philippines (essentially a Negrito marker). The furthest my direct maternal line I've traced to is Tripura state.

Fascinating history btw. Welcome to the forum.


Thanks bro! Apparently women carrying this haplogroup moved east and gradually made their way into the Indo-China region and onward to Philippines.

parasar
12-05-2017, 04:57 AM
We have the same mtDNA. But I was under the impression mine was something in the eastern and northeastern part of subcontinent and also found among the Aeta tribe of Philippines (essentially a Negrito marker). The furthest my direct maternal line I've traced to is Tripura state.

Fascinating history btw. Welcome to the forum.

Yes I recall we had discussed this Aeta connection before.
There is a post from a Filipino who is P295. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12866-y-DNA-Haplogroup-P-(P-P295)&p=320578&viewfull=1#post320578
His line may be basal to all of us R, Q. I wonder if he is related to the Aeta.

parasar
12-05-2017, 05:01 AM
Hello,

I used 23&me services to get tested and I just want to share my results with you guys.

Into/history first: I belong to a quintessential salt range/pothwar Rajput tribe. I hail from a village situated in Jhelum district of the Pakistani Punjab. My 28th ancestor Raja Mal Dev embraced Islam in the 12th Century; and I come from the line of his second son Raja Jodh through his decendant Malik Darwesh Khan of Darapur. Being a general in the Mughal imperial army, Malik Darwesh Khan was involved in Mirza Hakim campaign, among many others. The current chief of the tribe also comes from this line.

Since we accepted Islam such a long time ago, we have been mostly marrying within the tribe for centuries. Outside the tribe, we marry among the Gakhars traditionally and among the Chibhs of Jammu rarely. Within the last 4 generations only one female ancestor(my maternal great mother's mother was a Gakhar) of mine was from outside the tribe. This lady and my 27th Great Grandfather Raja Jodh's mother (also Gakhar) are the only women, that I know for sure, who were from outside the tribe. From this knowledge we can extrapolate that I overwhelmingly belong to just one stock; with slight colorations primarily coming from the Gakhar gene pool.



Now to my DNA results:

My Y-DNA haplogroup is R-M417.
My mtDNA haplogroup is M52a.



My GenePlaze K-12 admixtures are as follow:

Western Euro Farmers: 2.2
Levant: 5.8
Neolithic Iran CHG: 23.8
Eastern Euro Farmer: 5.6
Total Ancient farmer: 37.4

Scythian: 14.5
Andronova: 13.5
Yamnaya: 7.4
Total Steppe: 35.3

Southeast Eurasia: 24.3

East African: 1.9
Total African: 1.9

Eastern Non African 1.2




My Harappa GEDMatch results are as follow:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

Are you a Janjua? I was wondering if you are able to test for downstream markers - Y40, Z2124, L657, Y9, Y7 etc.

Heir of Gandhara
12-05-2017, 05:17 AM
Yes, I am a Janjua. How do I get tested for those markers? Costs?

parasar
12-05-2017, 03:14 PM
Yes, I am a Janjua. How do I get tested for those markers? Costs?

A Z93 pack - http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=11867

I'm on the Y2388 branch (terminal SNP Y2392). https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9/

redifflal
12-05-2017, 03:29 PM
Yes I recall we had discussed this Aeta connection before.
There is a post from a Filipino who is P295. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12866-y-DNA-Haplogroup-P-(P-P295)&p=320578&viewfull=1#post320578
His line may be basal to all of us R, Q. I wonder if he is related to the Aeta.

Is there any way of knowing whether the defining mutation arose in the subcontinent or in Southeast Asia? My gut feeling is that it represents a reverse migration westward in modern populations.

parasar
12-05-2017, 04:11 PM
Is there any way of knowing whether the defining mutation arose in the subcontinent or in Southeast Asia? My gut feeling is that it represents a reverse migration westward in modern populations.

The subcontinent is possible. But based on what we know as of now - SE Asia.

Y-K
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xIyCVSPSm3I/U5LqVD5nawI/AAAAAAAACsM/TEjs1OTRu7k/s1600/Karafet-Y-DNA-K-tree-annotated.png

For mtDNA M
Carriers of human mitochondrial DNA macrohaplogroup M colonized India from southeastern Asia
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5105315/

Heir of Gandhara
01-30-2018, 06:46 AM
I am just going to post all my GEDMatch results and single population oracles here in one place just in case someone wants to see them for comparison.

MDLP K23b Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Central_Asian 38.46
2 South_Indian 31.32
3 Caucasian 10.84
4 Ancestral_Altaic 6.26
5 European_Hunters_Gatherers 3.59
6 Near_East 2.68
7 South_East_Asian 2.37
8 Arctic 1.5
9 Amerindian 0.7
10 Subsaharian 0.49
11 Archaic_African 0.42
12 North_African 0.34
13 Australoid 0.33
14 East_Siberian 0.3
15 East_African 0.23
16 Paleo_Siberian 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jatt_Pahari ( ) 5.25
2 Punjabi_Gujjar ( ) 5.35
3 Pathan ( ) 7.69
4 Jatt_Haryana ( ) 8.48
5 Burusho ( ) 8.72
6 Pakistani ( ) 9.06
7 Jatt_Muslim ( ) 9.76
8 Sindhi ( ) 9.79
9 GujaratiA_GIH ( ) 10.69
10 Tiwari ( ) 16.71
11 Pakistani_Pushtun ( ) 17.23
12 GujaratiB_GIH ( ) 17.91
13 Cochin_Jew ( ) 18.58
14 Mumbai_Jew ( ) 19.39
15 Hindi ( ) 19.65
16 Marathi ( ) 20.99
17 Brahmin_Tamil ( ) 21.13
18 Pashtun_Afghani ( ) 21.6
19 Kshatriya ( ) 22.07
20 Vaish ( ) 22.11


MDLP World-22 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West-Asian 38.43
2 Indian 30.41
3 North-East-European 6.8
4 Indo-Iranian 6.53
5 Near_East 3.62
6 East-South-Asian 3.56
7 Samoedic 2.58
8 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 1.81
9 North-European-Mesolithic 1.57
10 Indo-Tibetan 1.18
11 East-Siberean 0.98
12 Sub-Saharian 0.75
13 Mesoamerican 0.72
14 South-America_Amerind 0.44
15 Austronesian 0.33
16 Arctic-Amerind 0.17
17 Paleo-Siberian 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pathan (derived) 5.48
2 Burusho (derived) 5.62
3 Sindhi (derived) 9.14
4 Balochi (derived) 10.44
5 Pashtun (derived) 13.05
6 Brahui (derived) 15.13
7 Makrani (derived) 15.35
8 Jew_India (derived) 16.59
9 Parsi (derived) 17.14
10 Tadjik (derived) 20.01
11 Turkmen (derived) 24.87
12 Hindu (derived) 27.07
13 Roma (derived) 28.25
14 Iranian (derived) 29.8
15 Uzbek (derived) 29.99
16 Azeri (derived) 31.13
17 Kumyk (derived) 31.83
18 Hazara (derived) 32.36
19 Kurd (derived) 32.69
20 Nogai (derived) 32.71

Dodecad V3 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 40.88
2 West_Asian 25.26
3 West_European 10.92
4 East_European 6.23
5 Mediterranean 5.2
6 Southeast_Asian 5
7 Southwest_Asian 3.34
8 Northeast_Asian 2.38
9 East_African 0.42
10 Palaeo_African 0.24
11 Neo_African 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) 4.51
2 Pathan (HGDP) 4.55
3 Burusho (HGDP) 5.25
4 Pakistani (Xing) 5.82
5 Sindhi (HGDP) 7.1
6 Bnei_Menashe_Jews (Behar) 12.16
7 Balochi (HGDP) 12.53
8 Brahui (HGDP) 13.76
9 Cochin_Jews (Behar) 15.37
10 Vaish (Reich) 15.69
11 Meghawal (Reich) 15.73
12 Makrani (HGDP) 17.22
13 Kalash (HGDP) 17.4
14 TN_Brahmin (Xing) 18.98
15 Srivastava (Reich) 19.6
16 AP_Brahmin (Xing) 19.87
17 Indian (Dodecad) 22.31
18 Nepalese (Xing) 22.57
19 Velama (Reich) 23.81
20 Tharu (Reich) 24.4

Dodecad K12b Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Gedrosia 40.4
2 South_Asian 30.61
3 Caucasus 10.59
4 North_European 9.19
5 Southwest_Asian 2.83
6 Siberian 2.33
7 Southeast_Asian 1.99
8 Atlantic_Med 1.58
9 East_Asian 0.32
10 Sub_Saharan 0.16
11 East_African 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pathan (HGDP) 8.87
2 Jatt (Dodecad) 9.12
3 Burusho (HGDP) 11.25
4 Sindhi (HGDP) 11.75
5 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh (Metspalu) 16.03
6 Cochin_Jews (Behar) 17.95
7 Kshatriya (Metspalu) 18.59
8 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu (Metspalu) 19.2
9 Bnei_Menashe_Jews (Behar) 19.35
10 Indian (Dodecad) 19.91
11 Iyer (Dodecad) 21.61
12 Iyengar (Dodecad) 22.65
13 GIH30 (Dodecad) 25.29
14 INS30 (SGVP) 26.62
15 Tharus (Metspalu) 26.92
16 Tajiks (Yunusbayev) 27.04
17 Dharkars (Metspalu) 27.53
18 Muslim (Metspalu) 28.08
19 Kanjars (Metspalu) 28.43
20 Velamas (Metspalu) 29.54


Dodecad World9 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus_Gedrosia 43.78
2 South_Asian 36.91
3 Atlantic_Baltic 8.46
4 Southern 5.14
5 Siberian 2.49
6 East_Asian 1.38
7 Amerindian 1.06
8 Australasian 0.49
9 African 0.3

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sindhi (HGDP) 5.26
2 Pathan (HGDP) 6.24
3 Burusho (HGDP) 7.4
4 Indian (Dodecad) 14.97
5 Bnei_Menashe_Jews 15.03
6 Brahmins_from_Uttar_Pradesh (Metspalu) 15.22
7 Cochin_Jews (Behar) 16.58
8 Kshatriya (Metspalu) 17.29
9 Brahmins_from_Tamil_Nadu (Metspalu) 17.94
10 Balochi (HGDP) 18.07
11 GIH30 (Dodecad) 19.97
12 Brahui (HGDP) 20.02
13 Makrani 21.77
14 Kalash 22.06
15 Tharus (Metspalu) 22.41
16 INS30 (SGVP) 24.89
17 Muslim (Metspalu) 25.11
18 Tajiks (Yunusbayev) 25.27
19 Dharkars (Metspalu) 26.06
20 Velamas (Metspalu) 28.11

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 44.53
2 West_Asian 35.51
3 Baltic 6.05
4 East_Med 4.73
5 North_Atlantic 2.75
6 Amerindian 1.41
7 East_Asian 1.36
8 Siberian 1.26
9 Red_Sea 1
10 Sub-Saharan 0.99
11 Northeast_African 0.35
12 Oceanian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sindhi 4.45
2 Pathan 6.53
3 Punjabi_Jat 7.02
4 Burusho 10.6
5 Kalash 12.83
6 Gujarati 14.51
7 Brahmin_UP 15.26
8 Kshatriya 16.31
9 Afghan_Pashtun 18.78
10 Makrani 20.62
11 Balochi 20.67
12 Bangladeshi 20.88
13 Brahui 20.92
14 Dharkar 23.76
15 Kanjar 24.91
16 Afghan_Tadjik 26.28
17 Velamas 26.37
18 Tadjik 26.6
19 Kurumba 27.61
20 Uttar_Pradesh 28.03


Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 47.13
2 West_Asian 24.8
3 Eastern_Euro 10.03
4 East_Med 8.6
5 North_Sea 4.45
6 Amerindian 1.22
7 Sub-Saharan 1.17
8 Siberian 1.07
9 Baltic 0.79
10 Southeast_Asian 0.73

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sindhi 3.59
2 Pathan 6.92
3 Punjabi_Jat 7.17
4 Burusho 12.51
5 Kalash 13.85
6 Brahmin_UP 14.92
7 Gujarati 15.08
8 Kshatriya 16.5
9 Brahui 16.86
10 Balochi 17.07
11 Makrani 19.56
12 Afghan_Pashtun 19.65
13 Bangladeshi 20.27
14 Dharkar 24.12
15 Kanjar 25.33
16 Afghan_Uzbeki 26.85
17 Velamas 27.17
18 Tadjik 27.28
19 Afghan_Tadjik 27.3
20 Uttar_Pradesh 28.04

puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asia 39.97
2 South_Asia 34.64
3 NE_Europe 9.8
4 SW_Asia 3.84
5 Siberia 3.15
6 SW_Europe 2.78
7 SE_Asia 1.94
8 Americas 1.31
9 Oceania 1.09
10 East_Africa 0.77
11 West_Africa 0.71

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sindhi 5.07
2 Punjabi 5.53
3 Kashmir_Pandit 6.86
4 Burusho 9.54
5 Pathan 11.56
6 Balochi 11.68
7 Pakistan_Pashtun 11.77
8 Makrani 11.87
9 Brahui 12.04
10 Afghan_Pashtun 14.8
11 Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin 16.64
12 Bengali 20.04
13 Velamas 22.7
14 Tadjik 23.51
15 UP_Muslim 26.21
16 Tamil_Nadu_Caste 26.26
17 Afghan_Uzbeki 26.58
18 Kurumba 26.73
19 Piramalai_Kallars 27.82
20 Chenchus 29.32


puntDNAL K15 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S_Indian 39.36
2 Caucasian 37.11
3 NE_European 10.33
4 Siberian 2.58
5 Mediterranean 2.47
6 SW_Asian 2.17
7 Omo_River 1.35
8 Beringian 1.19
9 E_Asian 1.07
10 Horn_Of_Africa 0.97
11 Oceanian 0.65
12 Amerindian 0.55
13 W_African 0.17
14 Wht_Nile_River 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kashmiri 3.51
2 Sindhi 5.53
3 Burusho 8.14
4 Pathan 8.9
5 UP_Brahmin 13.37
6 UP_Muslim 14.38
7 Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin 15.18
8 Pashtun 18.51
9 Bengali 19.6
10 Kanjar 21.71
11 Balochi 21.79
12 Brahui 22.08
13 Tharus 22.66
14 Makrani 24.38
15 Tadjik 26.83
16 Romani 27.6
17 Tamil_Nadu_SC 29.51
18 Uttar_Pradesh_SC 29.55
19 Turkmen 31.67
20 Uzbek 33.42

Eurasia K9 ASI Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 52.24
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 12.92
3 SE_Asian 8.49
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 8.48
5 SW_Asian 7.12
6 WHG 4.64
7 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 3.45
8 Siberian_E_Asian 2.65

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pathan 5.66
2 Burusho 6.24
3 Punjabi 6.42
4 Pashtun_Afghan 9.18
5 Kurd_SE 11.86
6 Kalash 12.08
7 Balochi 12.2
8 Brahui 13.19
9 Makrani 14.25
10 Tajik_Afghan 16.3
11 Tajik_Pomiri 17.66
12 Uzbek_Afghan 17.93
13 Bengali 20.44
14 KOTIAS 23.82
15 Hazara_Afghan 25.32
16 Lezgin 25.44
17 Azeri_Dagestan 25.66
18 Iranian 25.8
19 Chechen 27.34
20 Kurd_C 27.83

Gedrosia Near East Neolithic K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 39.28
2 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 32.53
3 CHG_EEF 9.95
4 EHG 8.73
5 NATUFIAN 3.89
6 KARITIANA 1.31
7 POLAR 1.09
8 PAPUAN 1.03
9 SIBERIAN 0.87
10 SHG_WHG 0.74
11 SUB_SAHARAN 0.57

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pathan 5.13
2 Sindhi 6.16
3 Burusho 7
4 GujaratiA 8.79
5 Kalash 10.02
6 Kurd_SE 10.31
7 Balochi 12.72
8 GujaratiB 13.49
9 Brahui 13.93
10 Pashtun_Afghan 14.66
11 Punjabi 15.11
12 Makrani 15.78
13 Iranian_Bandari 19.24
14 GujaratiC 19.75
15 GujaratiD 23.49
16 Tajik 23.67
17 Bengali 26.66
18 Iranian_Shirazi 27.79
19 Iranian_Mazandarani 28.08
20 Iranian 28.77

Rayaan
03-24-2018, 07:31 PM
It would certainly be interesting to know who your top matches are and which tribe in vicinity they live in.

Kulin
03-24-2018, 09:36 PM
We have the same mtDNA. But I was under the impression mine was something in the eastern and northeastern part of subcontinent and also found among the Aeta tribe of Philippines (essentially a Negrito marker). The furthest my direct maternal line I've traced to is Tripura state.

Fascinating history btw. Welcome to the forum.

My dad's village is on the border of Tripura currently, but it was historically part of the Tripura kingdom. But, my mom's village is in Chittagong. Coming to think of it, I need to create a family tree before lot of older members pass away. My Zamindar Great grandfather died before I was born, and his wife died when I was little.

Amber29
09-23-2018, 07:35 PM
I am from Potohar region Kallar Kahar area of Chakwal district. These are my results:

I have 3 kits but Ill post my ancestry as that was the first thing come infront of me lol. 23andMe gave abit of slight different compared to ancestry and myheritage.

Ancestry
Baloch 42.21
S-Indian 31.55
Caucasian 10.47
NE-Euro 9.94
Mediterranean 1.92
SW-Asian 1.62

Rahuls77
09-23-2018, 09:02 PM
I am from Potohar region Kallar Kahar area of Chakwal district. These are my results:

I have 3 kits but Ill post my ancestry as that was the first thing come infront of me lol. 23andMe gave abit of slight different compared to ancestry and myheritage.

Ancestry
Baloch 42.21
S-Indian 31.55
Caucasian 10.47
NE-Euro 9.94
Mediterranean 1.92
SW-Asian 1.62

Hey, what are your roots? As in, what specific social group/community?

Saad2016
09-23-2018, 10:05 PM
my guess is that amber is an awaan. Chakwal has lots of awaan.

Rahuls77
09-23-2018, 10:14 PM
my guess is that amber is an awaan. Chakwal has lots of awaan.

There are Rajputs, Jatts as well, in and around Chakwal. I know a few of them.

Amber29
09-24-2018, 12:11 AM
There are Rajputs, Jatts as well, in and around Chakwal. I know a few of them.


I been told I am a chohan rajput and we use the Malik as a title. Ive been told awan aswell BUT im not so sure..

Amber29
09-24-2018, 12:18 AM
Also I seem to have a high baloch component is that normal? because the rest seem to have 36 to 39% and do you know anyone with Haplogroup mtdna of W1C? i seem like the odd one out for not having R L M typical ones lol.

bol_nat
09-24-2018, 12:58 AM
I been told I am a chohan rajput and we use the Malik as a title. Ive been told awan aswell BUT im not so sure..

Likely awan because of malik title.

bol_nat
09-24-2018, 01:06 AM
Also I seem to have a high baloch component is that normal? because the rest seem to have 36 to 39% and do you know anyone with Haplogroup mtdna of W1C? i seem like the odd one out for not having R L M typical ones lol.

Your baloch is normal.

my results, from Kharian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 40.75
2 S-Indian 31.24
3 Caucasian 12.19
4 NE-Euro 7.83
5 Beringian 2.45
6 Mediterranean 1.89
7 Papuan 1.47
8 SW-Asian 1.37
9 SE-Asian 0.33
10 Siberian 0.26
11 NE-Asian 0.18
12 American 0.04

Amber29
09-24-2018, 01:17 AM
Your baloch is normal.

my results, from Kharian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 40.75
2 S-Indian 31.24
3 Caucasian 12.19
4 NE-Euro 7.83
5 Beringian 2.45
6 Mediterranean 1.89
7 Papuan 1.47
8 SW-Asian 1.37
9 SE-Asian 0.33
10 Siberian 0.26
11 NE-Asian 0.18
12 American 0.04

Thank you for confirming!

Amber29
09-24-2018, 01:23 AM
Likely awan because of malik title.

You see when I go to my village, I see people with chohan rajput and bhatti on the walls, but when I ask my cousin he says Awaan. I then discussed it with another cousin, he says we are chohan rajput. Apparantly the people who are actually awans have called everyone malik etc and never mistaken it and some rajputs do apparantly have titles of malik too. I dont know if I have made any sense here but, but if someone can tell me something informative would be great. I am not into this caste thing. We are already mixed people. I have pathans (women mostly) aswell as others amongst the probably other biradaris too. My father says, Malik/Raja everytime i ask.

Saad2016
09-24-2018, 01:55 AM
I been told I am a chohan rajput and we use the Malik as a title. Ive been told awan aswell BUT im not so sure..

the title malik and chouhan are not very compatible. Awaans use the title malik in Pakistan specially in your area.

bol_nat
09-24-2018, 02:06 AM
You see when I go to my village, I see people with chohan rajput and bhatti on the walls, but when I ask my cousin he says Awaan. I then discussed it with another cousin, he says we are chohan rajput. Apparantly the people who are actually awans have called everyone malik etc and never mistaken it and some rajputs do apparantly have titles of malik too. I dont know if I have made any sense here but, but if someone can tell me something informative would be great. I am not into this caste thing. We are already mixed people. I have pathans (women mostly) aswell as others amongst the probably other biradaris too. My father says, Malik/Raja everytime i ask.

Yes malik could be used by anyone. I know this can get very confusing as not much importance is given. On anthrogenica its only to see how similar different biradaris are genetically.

Rahuls77
09-24-2018, 05:27 AM
You see when I go to my village, I see people with chohan rajput and bhatti on the walls, but when I ask my cousin he says Awaan. I then discussed it with another cousin, he says we are chohan rajput. Apparantly the people who are actually awans have called everyone malik etc and never mistaken it and some rajputs do apparantly have titles of malik too. I dont know if I have made any sense here but, but if someone can tell me something informative would be great. I am not into this caste thing. We are already mixed people. I have pathans (women mostly) aswell as others amongst the probably other biradaris too. My father says, Malik/Raja everytime i ask.

In Rajouri, I have met Maliks who identify as Rajputs. While a friend, a Pakistani, who has roots in Uri, and is a Malik, is an Awan.

The bottomline is that Potoharis, on the whole, appear to have a similar genetic admixture. These castes, ascribed identities and such are not very old, and way too distinct from the differences you observe among other populations in Punjab and elsewhere in the South Asia south of Punjab.

Amber29
09-24-2018, 12:08 PM
In Rajouri, I have met Maliks who identify as Rajputs. While a friend, a Pakistani, who has roots in Uri, and is a Malik, is an Awan.

The bottomline is that Potoharis, on the whole, appear to have a similar genetic admixture. These castes, ascribed identities and such are not very old, and way too distinct from the differences you observe among other populations in Punjab and elsewhere in the South Asia south of Punjab.

So your saying that potoharis are genetically different from other punjabis?
I also read somewhere we arent real punjabis looool

Amber29
09-24-2018, 12:10 PM
Yes malik could be used by anyone. I know this can get very confusing as not much importance is given. On anthrogenica its only to see how similar different biradaris are genetically.

I agree,

MonkeyDLuffy
09-24-2018, 02:14 PM
So your saying that potoharis are genetically different from other punjabis?
I also read somewhere we arent real punjabis looool

We've Punjabis from mainland like central Punjab or east Punjab scoring exactly like potoharis and Jammuites, especially Punjabi Brahmins, Sainis, Suniyar (goldsmith) and Tarkhans.

The only groups that stand out in Punjab so far are Punjabi Jatts (central and east punjab), Punjabi Khatri and Punjabi Arains.

Here, check this sheet out, it has different tabs for different biradaris:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit?usp=drivesdk

Amber29
09-24-2018, 03:03 PM
We've Punjabis from mainland like central Punjab or east Punjab scoring exactly like potoharis and Jammuites, especially Punjabi Brahmins, Sainis, Suniyar (goldsmith) and Tarkhans.

The only groups that stand out in Punjab so far are Punjabi Jatts (central and east punjab), Punjabi Khatri and Punjabi Arains.

Here, check this sheet out, it has different tabs for different biradaris:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit?usp=drivesdk

i just went through it and i can see the difference and you are right. but its funny how the area you are from as a major impact on these I see the people from my area score similar to me. and i seen someone elses result she scored way different from gujranwala and now i see why because i found her result different to me. but thanks for the insight to these results! biradari and area makes a big difference.

Rahuls77
09-24-2018, 05:02 PM
i just went through it and i can see the difference and you are right. but its funny how the area you are from as a major impact on these I see the people from my area score similar to me. and i seen someone elses result she scored way different from gujranwala and now i see why because i found her result different to me. but thanks for the insight to these results! biradari and area makes a big difference.

Need to look at the numbers in the spreadsheet carefully. Potoharis are distinct in two aspects, Their SI and SEA are < The Indian elements MdL referred to, and the Indian groups are low in NE Asian, NE Euro and Siberians. Potoharis cluster closer to Kashmiris than to Indian Punjabi castes. And I don't understand why I have been classed as a Punjabi Brahman, in the sheet. I have come across three additional profiles of Potohari Brahmans, that do not stand anywhere in proximity to these many punjabi caste groups MdL speaks of.

Rahuls77
09-24-2018, 05:24 PM
We've Punjabis from mainland like central Punjab or east Punjab scoring exactly like potoharis and Jammuites, especially Punjabi Brahmins, Sainis, Suniyar (goldsmith) and Tarkhans.

The only groups that stand out in Punjab so far are Punjabi Jatts (central and east punjab), Punjabi Khatri and Punjabi Arains.

Here, check this sheet out, it has different tabs for different biradaris:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit?usp=drivesdk

Here is one Potohari Brahman Profile.
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.05
2 S-Indian 31.57
3 Caucasian 12.83
4 NE-Euro 11.57
5 Siberian 1.91
6 Beringian 1.71
7 American 1.37
8 Mediterranean 1.12
9 SE-Asian 0.44
10 SW-Asian 0.41

And here is the Second one
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.17
2 S-Indian 30.86
3 NE-Euro 12.99
4 Caucasian 12.76
5 SW-Asian 2.14
6 American 1.82
7 Siberian 1.55
8 Mediterranean 1.06
9 NE-Asian 0.33
10 Papuan 0.17
11 San 0.16

And a third
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.56
2 S-Indian 29.56
3 Caucasian 12.37
4 NE-Euro 11.06
5 SW-Asian 2.91
6 Siberian 1.72
7 Mediterranean 1.64
8 Beringian 1.05
9 American 0.6
10 NE-Asian 0.53

What distinguishes them from Punjabi Brahmans is high Siberian, NE Asian, Beringian and American.

This is exactly what you had remarked upon noticing my admixture numbers.

bol_nat
09-24-2018, 09:58 PM
Here is one Potohari Brahman Profile.
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.05
2 S-Indian 31.57
3 Caucasian 12.83
4 NE-Euro 11.57
5 Siberian 1.91
6 Beringian 1.71
7 American 1.37
8 Mediterranean 1.12
9 SE-Asian 0.44
10 SW-Asian 0.41

And here is the Second one
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.17
2 S-Indian 30.86
3 NE-Euro 12.99
4 Caucasian 12.76
5 SW-Asian 2.14
6 American 1.82
7 Siberian 1.55
8 Mediterranean 1.06
9 NE-Asian 0.33
10 Papuan 0.17
11 San 0.16

And a third
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.56
2 S-Indian 29.56
3 Caucasian 12.37
4 NE-Euro 11.06
5 SW-Asian 2.91
6 Siberian 1.72
7 Mediterranean 1.64
8 Beringian 1.05
9 American 0.6
10 NE-Asian 0.53

What distinguishes them from Punjabi Brahmans is high Siberian, NE Asian, Beringian and American.

This is exactly what you had remarked upon noticing my admixture numbers.

To be fair these brahmins don't really score like people from Jhelum and Chakwal. Samples from potohar score more like musims of neighbour districts which are not potohar but of similar biradaris and even 1 sample from south punjab had similar profile . Low NE euro, high baloch/caucasian, and bit higher SI as well. Generic west punjab muslim results apart from arains who score very high caucasian like and some jatt muslims like Zuran who may score above 11-12% NE euro.

bored
09-24-2018, 10:42 PM
To be fair these brahmins don't really score like people from Jhelum and Chakwal. Samples from potohar score more like musims of neighbour districts which are not potohar but of similar biradaris and even 1 sample from south punjab had similar profile . Low NE euro, high baloch/caucasian, and bit higher SI as well. Generic west punjab muslim results apart from arains who score very high caucasian like and some jatt muslims like Zuran who may score above 11-12% NE euro.

Don't Potoharis score elevated East Asian/Siberian/American on Harappa?

MonkeyDLuffy
09-24-2018, 11:10 PM
Here is one Potohari Brahman Profile.
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.05
2 S-Indian 31.57
3 Caucasian 12.83
4 NE-Euro 11.57
5 Siberian 1.91
6 Beringian 1.71
7 American 1.37
8 Mediterranean 1.12
9 SE-Asian 0.44
10 SW-Asian 0.41

And here is the Second one
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.17
2 S-Indian 30.86
3 NE-Euro 12.99
4 Caucasian 12.76
5 SW-Asian 2.14
6 American 1.82
7 Siberian 1.55
8 Mediterranean 1.06
9 NE-Asian 0.33
10 Papuan 0.17
11 San 0.16

And a third
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.56
2 S-Indian 29.56
3 Caucasian 12.37
4 NE-Euro 11.06
5 SW-Asian 2.91
6 Siberian 1.72
7 Mediterranean 1.64
8 Beringian 1.05
9 American 0.6
10 NE-Asian 0.53

What distinguishes them from Punjabi Brahmans is high Siberian, NE Asian, Beringian and American.

This is exactly what you had remarked upon noticing my admixture numbers.

Are they confirmed potohari bromins? Did you emailed them and confirmed?

Raza94
09-25-2018, 12:15 AM
What groups would have lower NE Euro?

Rahuls77
09-25-2018, 01:50 AM
Are they confirmed potohari bromins? Did you emailed them and confirmed?

I have confirmation about the first and the second, and the third one is related to the second.

bol_nat
09-26-2018, 09:46 PM
Don't Potoharis score elevated East Asian/Siberian/American on Harappa?

Confirmed samples from Jhelum and Chalwal districts. I think with Amber we have 3 now.

Mughal

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.09
2 S-Indian 31.07
3 Caucasian 13.31
4 NE-Euro 7.13
5 Siberian 2.23
6 American 0.86
7 Beringian 0.84
8 SW-Asian 0.48

Amber/Rajput?

Ancestry
Baloch 42.21
S-Indian 31.55
Caucasian 10.47
NE-Euro 9.94
Mediterranean 1.92
SW-Asian 1.62

Heir Gandhara/janjua

My Harappa GEDMatch results are as follow:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

Rahuls77
09-26-2018, 10:04 PM
Confirmed samples from Jhelum and Chalwal districts. I think with Amber we have 3 now.

Mughal

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.09
2 S-Indian 31.07
3 Caucasian 13.31
4 NE-Euro 7.13
5 Siberian 2.23
6 American 0.86
7 Beringian 0.84
8 SW-Asian 0.48

Amber/Rajput?

Ancestry
Baloch 42.21
S-Indian 31.55
Caucasian 10.47
NE-Euro 9.94
Mediterranean 1.92
SW-Asian 1.62

Heir Gandhara/janjua

My Harappa GEDMatch results are as follow:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

Do we have any samples from Kahuta, Hazara etc? The kit from which I had posted, belongs to the Sassan clan, and they usually hailed from Kahuta, Muzaffarabad and even Haripur-Hazro-Havelian.
While I have roots near Gujar Khan, with one half from Kahuta.

bored
09-26-2018, 10:46 PM
Confirmed samples from Jhelum and Chalwal districts. I think with Amber we have 3 now.

Mughal

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.09
2 S-Indian 31.07
3 Caucasian 13.31
4 NE-Euro 7.13
5 Siberian 2.23
6 American 0.86
7 Beringian 0.84
8 SW-Asian 0.48

Amber/Rajput?

Ancestry
Baloch 42.21
S-Indian 31.55
Caucasian 10.47
NE-Euro 9.94
Mediterranean 1.92
SW-Asian 1.62

Heir Gandhara/janjua

My Harappa GEDMatch results are as follow:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

Yea these are different from Rahuls's results and the other Potohari Bromins

Do we have any results from Sialkot?

Rahuls77
09-27-2018, 12:07 AM
The Janjua was close, except for the Low SI, compensated with high Caucasian.

bol_nat
09-27-2018, 01:02 AM
Yea these are different from Rahuls's results and the other Potohari Bromins

Do we have any results from Sialkot?

I think we only have one confirmed kit from Sialkot. I contacted him long time ago on 23andme.

cheema jatt

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 40.94
2 S-Indian 31.95
3 Caucasian 11.88
4 NE-Euro 9.74
5 Siberian 1.76
6 Mediterranean 1.57
7 SW-Asian 1.01
8 American 0.86
9 Beringian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 2.51
2 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 2.91
3 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.39
4 punjabi (harappa) 3.46
5 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 3.89
6 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 4.07
7 punjabi-arain (xing) 4.59
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.71
9 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.02
10 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.02
11 kashmiri (harappa) 5.54
12 sindhi (harappa) 6.04
13 sindhi (hgdp) 7.2
14 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.39
15 up-muslim (harappa) 7.56
16 bhatia (harappa) 8.28
17 nepalese-a (xing) 8.29
18 pathan (hgdp) 8.89
19 up-brahmin (harappa) 9.7
20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 9.94

bored
09-27-2018, 01:24 AM
I think we only have one confirmed kit from Sialkot. I contacted him long time ago on 23andme.

cheema jatt

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 40.94
2 S-Indian 31.95
3 Caucasian 11.88
4 NE-Euro 9.74
5 Siberian 1.76
6 Mediterranean 1.57
7 SW-Asian 1.01
8 American 0.86
9 Beringian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 2.51
2 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 2.91
3 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.39
4 punjabi (harappa) 3.46
5 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 3.89
6 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 4.07
7 punjabi-arain (xing) 4.59
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.71
9 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.02
10 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.02
11 kashmiri (harappa) 5.54
12 sindhi (harappa) 6.04
13 sindhi (hgdp) 7.2
14 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.39
15 up-muslim (harappa) 7.56
16 bhatia (harappa) 8.28
17 nepalese-a (xing) 8.29
18 pathan (hgdp) 8.89
19 up-brahmin (harappa) 9.7
20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 9.94

His Harappa oracle is really interesting.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-27-2018, 02:05 AM
I think we only have one confirmed kit from Sialkot. I contacted him long time ago on 23andme.

cheema jatt

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 40.94
2 S-Indian 31.95
3 Caucasian 11.88
4 NE-Euro 9.74
5 Siberian 1.76
6 Mediterranean 1.57
7 SW-Asian 1.01
8 American 0.86
9 Beringian 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 2.51
2 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 2.91
3 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.39
4 punjabi (harappa) 3.46
5 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 3.89
6 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 4.07
7 punjabi-arain (xing) 4.59
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.71
9 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.02
10 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.02
11 kashmiri (harappa) 5.54
12 sindhi (harappa) 6.04
13 sindhi (hgdp) 7.2
14 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.39
15 up-muslim (harappa) 7.56
16 bhatia (harappa) 8.28
17 nepalese-a (xing) 8.29
18 pathan (hgdp) 8.89
19 up-brahmin (harappa) 9.7
20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 9.94

I know Sikh Cheema family that migrated from Sialkot. I wonder if the muslim cheema is from same lineage somewhere in their family tree.

Raza94
09-27-2018, 02:09 AM
Hey guys, just wondering if there is something in the results that points toward a salt range/potohar lineage? Would it be lower NE Euro and higher Caucasian?

bol_nat
09-27-2018, 02:48 AM
Hey guys, just wondering if there is something in the results that points toward a salt range/potohar lineage? Would it be lower NE Euro and higher Caucasian?

Not admixture wise but some tribes like Janjuas have their origins in pindi/jhelum. So janjuas found in other districs of punjab like we got user here from Gujrat who was janjua, who's ancestors likely migrated from their origin point in Jhelum or Pindi.

With just admixture results it will be hard to tell.

Sapporo
09-27-2018, 02:58 AM
I know Sikh Cheema family that migrated from Sialkot. I wonder if the muslim cheema is from same lineage somewhere in their family tree.

I have the results of a Jatt Sikh Cheema in my spreadsheet. It's possible they have the same paternal lineage but the Muslim Cheema is probably slightly mixed with non Central Punjab Jatts. The Muslim Cheema actually scores fairly similar to a Muslim Rai and Mann I have results for as well. They look sort of like blends of Jatt Sikhs + some Pahari like populations such as Gujjars or Pahari Rajputs.

hj111
09-27-2018, 03:23 AM
Must say, the Potohari samples appear quite close to the ancient Saidu Sharif sample from the Central Asian/S Asian thread, i.e high Siberian and Caucasian. Here's the Harappadna gedmatch result of the Saidu Sharif sample from 800-500 BC Swat Valley:

Saidu_Sharif_IA S7720.E1.L1
gedmatch kit Z639605:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.27
2 S-Indian 30.79
3 Caucasian 14.64
4 NE-Euro 6.85
5 Siberian 2.66
6 NE-Asian 1.81
7 Beringian 1.24
8 Papuan 1.04
9 SW-Asian 0.67
10 W-African 0.59
11 American 0.36
12 Pygmy 0.08


Seems like the Potoharis might be the population closest to the ancient Swat-Valley people or Gandharans. I would imagine Potoharis, Paharis of Azad Kashmir and Hindko speakers to be very similar in their DNA profile. I have another theory on the topic; maybe the Potoharis and Kashmiris avoided intermixing with Indo-Scythians, who could account for the higher NE-Euro in Central Punjab and Haryana Jatt/Jats. Perhaps the Scythians crossed from the Khyber Pass and avoided the mountainous/hilly areas altogether?

bol_nat
09-27-2018, 04:31 AM
I have the results of a Jatt Sikh Cheema in my spreadsheet. It's possible they have the same paternal lineage but the Muslim Cheema is probably slightly mixed with non Central Punjab Jatts. The Muslim Cheema actually scores fairly similar to a Muslim Rai and Mann I have results for as well. They look sort of like blends of Jatt Sikhs + some Pahari like populations such as Gujjars or Pahari Rajputs.

From where are rai and mann? just saw them in your spreadsheet.

Sapporo
09-27-2018, 04:44 AM
From where are rai and mann? just saw them in your spreadsheet.

No idea to be honest as I never contacted them. Or do you mean how I found them? I forgot where I came across the Rai (though using their gedmatch one to one matches might help). The Mann is from my mother's matches (my mother is Mann) on GEDMatch.

bol_nat
09-27-2018, 04:47 AM
Do we have any samples from Kahuta, Hazara etc? The kit from which I had posted, belongs to the Sassan clan, and they usually hailed from Kahuta, Muzaffarabad and even Haripur-Hazro-Havelian.
While I have roots near Gujar Khan, with one half from Kahuta.

Closest thing to Hindko/hazara was that Abbasi kit from Murree. Abbasis are dominant group in that region, they used to be known as dhund in older time. I think they now claim arab abbasi origin perhaps, anyway abbasi kit was H1a. Language spoken in that region tend to be more closer to pahari of AJK or hindko compared to potohari of Jhelum/Gujar khan.

bol_nat
09-27-2018, 04:54 AM
No idea to be honest as I never contacted them. Or do you mean how I found them? I forgot where I came across the Rai (though using their gedmatch one to one matches might help). The Mann is from my mother's matches (my mother is Mann) on GEDMatch.

I meant which district, they are probably from Sialkot or Gujranwala. Results similar to cheema or even saad2016.

mann

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 42.54
2 S-Indian 29.9
3 Caucasian 13.61
4 NE-Euro 9.59
5 Beringian 1.79
6 Mediterranean 1.7
7 SW-Asian 0.49
8 Siberian 0.29
9 E-African 0.05
10 Pygmy 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 4.59
2 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 4.74
3 punjabi-arain (xing) 4.97
4 sindhi (harappa) 5.11
5 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.29
6 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.42
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.53
8 punjabi (harappa) 5.69
9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.74
10 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 5.83
11 kashmiri (harappa) 6.28
12 sindhi (hgdp) 6.55
13 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 6.57
14 bhatia (harappa) 6.77
15 pathan (hgdp) 7.16
16 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 8.62
17 kalash (hgdp) 9.1
18 up-muslim (harappa) 9.97
19 burusho (hgdp) 10.13
20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.41

rai

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.37
2 S-Indian 31.41
3 Caucasian 11.18
4 NE-Euro 10.6
5 Mediterranean 2.41
6 SW-Asian 2.08
7 NE-Asian 1.77
8 Siberian 0.89
9 American 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi (harappa) 3.57
2 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.57
3 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.57
4 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 3.7
5 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 4.29
6 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 4.51
7 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.79
8 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 4.84
9 kashmiri (harappa) 4.93
10 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.11
11 punjabi-arain (xing) 5.88
12 sindhi (harappa) 6.11
13 up-muslim (harappa) 6.61
14 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.02
15 nepalese-a (xing) 7.09
16 sindhi (hgdp) 8.24
17 haryana-jatt (harappa) 8.8
18 bhatia (harappa) 8.84
19 pathan (hgdp) 8.96
20 up-brahmin (harappa) 9.5

Rahuls77
09-27-2018, 10:44 AM
Must say, the Potohari samples appear quite close to the ancient Saidu Sharif sample from the Central Asian/S Asian thread, i.e high Siberian and Caucasian. Here's the Harappadna gedmatch result of the Saidu Sharif sample from 800-500 BC Swat Valley:

Saidu_Sharif_IA S7720.E1.L1
gedmatch kit Z639605:

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.27
2 S-Indian 30.79
3 Caucasian 14.64
4 NE-Euro 6.85
5 Siberian 2.66
6 NE-Asian 1.81
7 Beringian 1.24
8 Papuan 1.04
9 SW-Asian 0.67
10 W-African 0.59
11 American 0.36
12 Pygmy 0.08


Seems like the Potoharis might be the population closest to the ancient Swat-Valley people or Gandharans. I would imagine Potoharis, Paharis of Azad Kashmir and Hindko speakers to be very similar in their DNA profile. I have another theory on the topic; maybe the Potoharis and Kashmiris avoided intermixing with Indo-Scythians, who could account for the higher NE-Euro in Central Punjab and Haryana Jatt/Jats. Perhaps the Scythians crossed from the Khyber Pass and avoided the mountainous/hilly areas altogether?

Stands to reason, the Indus probably was a major obstacle, and as such most of the incursions have been via Multan instead. As such the Salt Ranges would also prevent mixing in the past.

bol_nat
09-27-2018, 03:04 PM
Stands to reason, the Indus probably was a major obstacle, and as such most of the incursions have been via Multan instead. As such the Salt Ranges would also prevent mixing in the past.

But they had to cross Indus either way even if from Multan route :\

Rahuls77
09-27-2018, 03:54 PM
But they had to cross Indus either way even if from Multan route :\

A Tumultuous Indus in the north was a better barrier to entry / incursions, and then you have the landscape which may have prevented them, along with the richness of Punjab in the plains.

Rahuls77
09-27-2018, 04:03 PM
Besides the density of Pashtuns, who are the most recent migrants from the North West, is higher in Multan, Mianwali than it is in Potohar, although there have been settlements of Turkics such as the Pakhli Sarkar in Haripur-Hazaro about 6 centuries ago. And of course we have a lot of Pashtuns settling in and around the Modern Islamabad.

bol_nat
09-27-2018, 06:14 PM
A Tumultuous Indus in the north was a better barrier to entry / incursions, and then you have the landscape which may have prevented them, along with the richness of Punjab in the plains.

Maybe they had to cross 5 rivers from north instead of just indus in south. Punjab was divided in rivers and thats why one see different dialects today as in older days it was not straightforward to cross rivers. These big and small rivers tend to act as district and provincial boundaries with in punjab today.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eMd8xMMApBU/TLNfveNeVtI/AAAAAAAAAB8/N2NaJXbTpDM/s1600/Punjab_map_(topographic).png

Rahuls77
09-27-2018, 06:59 PM
Maybe they had to cross 5 rivers from north instead of just indus in south. Punjab was divided in rivers and thats why one see different dialects today as in older days it was not straightforward to cross rivers. These big and small rivers tend to act as district and provincial boundaries with in punjab today.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eMd8xMMApBU/TLNfveNeVtI/AAAAAAAAAB8/N2NaJXbTpDM/s1600/Punjab_map_(topographic).png

I think Mianwali and Multan formed a natural route, this looks more likely when you review the incursions over the past 300 years.

R2d2
04-13-2020, 11:59 PM
Hello,

I used 23&me services to get tested and I just want to share my results with you guys.

Into/history first: I belong to a quintessential salt range/pothwar Rajput tribe. I hail from a village situated in Jhelum district of the Pakistani Punjab. My 28th ancestor Raja Mal Dev embraced Islam in the 12th Century; and I come from the line of his second son Raja Jodh through his decendant Malik Darwesh Khan of Darapur. Being a general in the Mughal imperial army, Malik Darwesh Khan was involved in Mirza Hakim campaign, among many others. The current chief of the tribe also comes from this line.

Since we accepted Islam such a long time ago, we have been mostly marrying within the tribe for centuries. Outside the tribe, we marry among the Gakhars traditionally and among the Chibhs of Jammu rarely. Within the last 4 generations only one female ancestor(my maternal great mother's mother was a Gakhar) of mine was from outside the tribe. This lady and my 27th Great Grandfather Raja Jodh's mother (also Gakhar) are the only women, that I know for sure, who were from outside the tribe. From this knowledge we can extrapolate that I overwhelmingly belong to just one stock; with slight colorations primarily coming from the Gakhar gene pool.



Now to my DNA results:

My Y-DNA haplogroup is R-M417.
My mtDNA haplogroup is M52a.



My GenePlaze K-12 admixtures are as follow:

Western Euro Farmers: 2.2
Levant: 5.8
Neolithic Iran CHG: 23.8
Eastern Euro Farmer: 5.6
Total Ancient farmer: 37.4

Scythian: 14.5
Andronova: 13.5
Yamnaya: 7.4
Total Steppe: 35.3

Southeast Eurasia: 24.3

East African: 1.9
Total African: 1.9

Eastern Non African 1.2




My Harappa GEDMatch results are as follow:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.96
2 S-Indian 29.59
3 Caucasian 14.13
4 NE-Euro 7.99
5 SW-Asian 2.38
6 SE-Asian 1.93
7 Beringian 1.44
8 Siberian 1.42
9 Papuan 0.46
10 American 0.4
11 San 0.32

Almost all Janjuas claiming Darapur lineage should be sharing the same paternal haologroup but it seems there are Haplogroups L1a , H and J2 amongst them.
Another point of interest applies to Gakhars being L1 J2, R2, G2a etc. The claim that they are from one male ancestor can not hold up.

hj111
04-16-2020, 01:03 AM
Almost all Janjuas claiming Darapur lineage should be sharing the same paternal haologroup but it seems there are Haplogroups L1a , H and J2 amongst them.
Another point of interest applies to Gakhars being L1 J2, R2, G2a etc. The claim that they are from one male ancestor can not hold up.

Where did you find the haplogroups of Darapur Janjuas and Gakhars? I have only discovered one apparent Gakhar and Janjua here on Anthrogenica. Do you have more samples from North-Punjab based Janjua and Gakhars?

R2d2
05-01-2020, 01:08 AM
Found at least 3 on 23andme. J2, L1 and a H all claiming links to Mal Dev via Jhelum and then beyond. With regards to Gakhars there are L1 hailing from AJK, a G2 from Abbotobad Hazara, R2 AJK and at least another 2 on my Heritage whose haplogroups were not on display. There were at least another 3 on Ged match whose kits were never restored after the takeover by another company.
I may still have their emails as I did correspond with them back a few years ago.
If you've tested with 23andme, you may have matched some distantly but with different haplogroups.

Amber29
05-01-2020, 04:13 PM
talking about Gakhars I have one R-L266 - the other is R1a with the surname Kiani - just if you guys are interested in haplogroup thingy. there was one more - but no on display. lol

R2d2
05-02-2020, 10:32 AM
Where did you find the haplogroups of Darapur Janjuas and Gakhars? I have only discovered one apparent Gakhar and Janjua here on Anthrogenica. Do you have more samples from North-Punjab based Janjua and Gakhars?

Who is the Gakhar on here you've discovered? It would be interesting to compare results with others who may show interest.
It seems these tribes are a loose collection of various lineages and not as claimed descendents of one male lineage.

Ahmed Ali
05-02-2020, 03:51 PM
Hi, I just thought i'd chime in with a bit of new info I picked up today (related to the subject of this thread).

I never knew my maternal grandfather but my grandmother (an Awan) tells me he was fiercely proud of being a Bais/Bhains Rajput and would always mention it at the dinner table haha.. anyways, his family were from Akalgarh in AJK, Pakistan. I recently picked up a book on the history of the clan which was authored by a British man who spent time Bais/Bhains elders in the villages in Northern Punjab/AJK and asked them to recount their origins to him.

Interestingly, the Bais/Bhains say they descend from Raja Mal Khan. The book produces a shajra/family tree and shows (allegedly) that amongst Raja Mal Khan's sons were Judh (the ancestor of Janjuas proper) and one Raja Bhir (the ancestor of the Bhains, whose descendants settled in AJK). That would make the Bais/Bhains of AJK an offshoot of the Salt Range Janjuas - does anyone know anything about this or have any thoughts? This is the first time I'm encountering this, and whilst I'm unsure if there's anything to it, I wonder whether it does make more sense than the other account of the Bais' history (which is that they came from Awadh and are direct cousins of the Indian Bais Rajputs who are of the 'Chattis Rajkul')..

The book also says the Bais are related to Janjuas/Minhas and intermarried with Gakhar..

parasar
05-02-2020, 04:21 PM
Hi, I just thought i'd chime in with a bit of new info I picked up today (related to the subject of this thread).

I never knew my maternal grandfather but my grandmother (an Awan) tells me he was fiercely proud of being a Bais/Bhains Rajput and would always mention it at the dinner table haha.. anyways, his family were from Akalgarh in AJK, Pakistan. I recently picked up a book on the history of the clan which was authored by a British man who spent time Bais/Bhains elders in the villages in Northern Punjab/AJK and asked them to recount their origins to him.

Interestingly, the Bais/Bhains say they descend from Raja Mal Khan. The book produces a shajra/family tree and shows (allegedly) that amongst Raja Mal Khan's sons were Judh (the ancestor of Janjuas proper) and one Raja Bhir (the ancestor of the Bhains, whose descendants settled in AJK). That would make the Bais/Bhains of AJK an offshoot of the Salt Range Janjuas - does anyone know anything about this or have any thoughts? This is the first time I'm encountering this, and whilst I'm unsure if there's anything to it, I wonder whether it does make more sense than the other account of the Bais' history (which is that they came from Awadh and are direct cousins of the Indian Bais Rajputs who are of the 'Chattis Rajkul')..

The book also says the Bais are related to Janjuas/Minhas and intermarried with Gakhar..

Not sure if if there any connection to the Salt Range or AJK clans, but the great Bhuiya of Bangal - Isa Afghan - was a Bais.
"Its breadth from the northern range of mountains to the southern
frontier of the Sarkar of Mandaran, is two hundred kos, and
when the country of Orissa was added to this Subah, the
additional length was forty-three kos and the breadth
twenty-three. It is bounded on the east by the sea, on the
north and south by mountains and on the west by the Subah
of Behar. The tract of country on the east called Bhati, is
reckoned a part of this province. It is ruled by Isa Afghan ...."
Ain-i-akbari Of Abul Fazl I Allami Vol. 2

"In 1874, James Wise collected a little information about the early life and family history of Isa Khan. He writes as follows : "The family tradition is that during the reign of Husain Shah ( 1493 to 1520 )6 Kali Das Gajdani, a Bais Rajput of Oudh ...""

Akbarnama, Abul Fazl: Isa's father was a Bais Rajput whose name was Kali Das Gajdani, and that when he became a Muhammadan he received the title of Sulaiman Khan.

Wikipedia summary:
"Bhagirath, grandfather of Isa Khan... of the Bais clan. He came to Bengal from Ayodhya and took the job of Dewan under the Sultan of Bengal Ghiyasuddin Mahmud Shah (reigned 1533–1538).[1] His son Kalidas Gazdani inherited the post after his death. Later, Kalidas converted to Islam and took the Muslim name Sulaiman Khan. Sulaiman married the Sultan's daughter Syeda Momena Khatun and received the Zamindari of Sarail (present-day Sarail Upazila, Brahmanbaria, Bangladesh) in the Bhati region. Their son, Isa Khan, was born in Sarail.[1] Following the death of Sultan Ghiyasuddin, Sulaiman declared himself as the legal successor and revolted against the newly established Afghan rule. He was later killed in battle.[1]"

Ahmed Ali
05-02-2020, 06:15 PM
Not sure if if there any connection to the Salt Range or AJK clans, but the great Bhuiya of Bangal - Isa Afghan - was a Bais.
"Its breadth from the northern range of mountains to the southern
frontier of the Sarkar of Mandaran, is two hundred kos, and
when the country of Orissa was added to this Subah, the
additional length was forty-three kos and the breadth
twenty-three. It is bounded on the east by the sea, on the
north and south by mountains and on the west by the Subah
of Behar. The tract of country on the east called Bhati, is
reckoned a part of this province. It is ruled by Isa Afghan ...."
Ain-i-akbari Of Abul Fazl I Allami Vol. 2

"In 1874, James Wise collected a little information about the early life and family history of Isa Khan. He writes as follows : "The family tradition is that during the reign of Husain Shah ( 1493 to 1520 )6 Kali Das Gajdani, a Bais Rajput of Oudh ...""

Akbarnama, Abul Fazl: Isa's father was a Bais Rajput whose name was Kali Das Gajdani, and that when he became a Muhammadan he received the title of Sulaiman Khan.

Wikipedia summary:
"Bhagirath, grandfather of Isa Khan... of the Bais clan. He came to Bengal from Ayodhya and took the job of Dewan under the Sultan of Bengal Ghiyasuddin Mahmud Shah (reigned 1533–1538).[1] His son Kalidas Gazdani inherited the post after his death. Later, Kalidas converted to Islam and took the Muslim name Sulaiman Khan. Sulaiman married the Sultan's daughter Syeda Momena Khatun and received the Zamindari of Sarail (present-day Sarail Upazila, Brahmanbaria, Bangladesh) in the Bhati region. Their son, Isa Khan, was born in Sarail.[1] Following the death of Sultan Ghiyasuddin, Sulaiman declared himself as the legal successor and revolted against the newly established Afghan rule. He was later killed in battle.[1]"

Very interesting. I do wonder whether there is an ancestral connection between the Awadh Bais and the AJK Bais/Bhains. The author of the book seems to suggest they're one and the same; but he simultaneously states that the AJK Bais are linked to Raja Mal Dev (which is where the family tree he's adduced comes into play). To me, the AJK Bais being the same as the Awadh Bais whilst also being descended from the founders of the Janjua tribe appears incompatible as (from what I've read) Raja Mal Dev was a Rathore not a Bais; and in fact the two tribes were known to dislike one another historically..

I did some more reading and the author suggests that Raja Mal Dev's son by a Gakhar princess, Raja Bhir, settled near Jhelum, and his family proliferated from there into the AJK villages where the Bais enjoy a majority today (places like Islamgarh, Kalyal Bhainsi) before moving in Chib territory.. interesting stuff.

Also, in case of interest, I've found two male relatives who are AJK Bais/Bhains Rajputs on 23andme, who I've managed to work out are definitely close-ish relatives on my maternal grandfather (his cousins' kids, on different sides of the family but within the same extended family network) and their y-haplos are R1a and J2b2, respectively.. so pretty much in line with Punjab, from what I know (and also, I guess, compatible with the discussion on the haplos of Janjuas, above). In terms of admix, I don't know what their harappa scores are, but my own aunt scores high-ish Caucasian (15%) (versus her mum at 13%), so I'm assuming my grandfather is higher in caucasian and lower in NE Euro, in line with Potoharis/Khatris and Kashmiri Rajas generally.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-03-2020, 01:03 AM
Wait, is Bais)Bhains pronounced same as Bains? Because in Sikhs Bains are jatts. And my region (Ropar, Anandpur) has biggest population of them (similar to Grewals of Ludhiana).

parasar
05-03-2020, 01:09 AM
Very interesting. I do wonder whether there is an ancestral connection between the Awadh Bais and the AJK Bais/Bhains. The author of the book seems to suggest they're one and the same; but he simultaneously states that the AJK Bais are linked to Raja Mal Dev (which is where the family tree he's adduced comes into play). To me, the AJK Bais being the same as the Awadh Bais whilst also being descended from the founders of the Janjua tribe appears incompatible as (from what I've read) Raja Mal Dev was a Rathore not a Bais; and in fact the two tribes were known to dislike one another historically..

I did some more reading and the author suggests that Raja Mal Dev's son by a Gakhar princess, Raja Bhir, settled near Jhelum, and his family proliferated from there into the AJK villages where the Bais enjoy a majority today (places like Islamgarh, Kalyal Bhainsi) before moving in Chib territory.. interesting stuff.

Also, in case of interest, I've found two male relatives who are AJK Bais/Bhains Rajputs on 23andme, who I've managed to work out are definitely close-ish relatives on my maternal grandfather (his cousins' kids, on different sides of the family but within the same extended family network) and their y-haplos are R1a and J2b2, respectively.. so pretty much in line with Punjab, from what I know (and also, I guess, compatible with the discussion on the haplos of Janjuas, above). In terms of admix, I don't know what their harappa scores are, but my own aunt scores high-ish Caucasian (15%) (versus her mum at 13%), so I'm assuming my grandfather is higher in caucasian and lower in NE Euro, in line with Potoharis/Khatris and Kashmiri Rajas generally.

I have not read much on the NW Bais, but I had read the history told by the Janjohas to Griffin in The Panjab Chiefs, and a Rathore connection is indicated.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Q0ABAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA602
"But the traditions of the Janjoahs themselves do not point to a very ancient occupancy of the Panjab. They all trace their descent from a Raja Mal, a descendant of the Pandus and of the Rahtore Rajput race, who, about the year 980 A. D., emigrated to the Panjab from Jodhpur or Kanouj, which latter country was then ruled by a Rahtore prince. Hearing that the Pandus had once taken shelter in the hills to the north of the Jhelam, he journeyed there with his followers and founded the village of Rajghar, now famous under the name of Mulot. There he ruled in peace till the invasion of India by Mahmud of Ghazni, when that monarch summoned him to his presence. Raja Mal refused to attend; so Mahmud sent a force against him, which defeated and took him prisoner, and to save his life and regain his liberty he was compelled to renounce his Hindu faith and adopt Islamism. The name of the tribe is said to have arisen from this conversion, when the ' janju ' or thread worn by Raja Mal and all Hindus, and denoting his caste, was broken. The Janjoahs are unanimous in thus placing the advent of their great ancestor into the Panjab in the tenth century, which is the more remarkable as it is certainly erroneous. Their genealogies also confirm their story. The longeat are those of the families of Natel, which gives 23 generations from Raja Mal; of Chuhar Saidan Shah and Baghanwala, which allow 22 and 21 respectively. There are families, as the Mulot and Dilwal, whose genealogical trees take only 17 and 18 generations to arrive at the same ancestor. Allowing 30 years for a generation, which is too liberal on average, the longest of these genealogies does not extend over more than seven hundred years."

Griffin collected the information in about ~1860 and going back 700 years takes us to ~1160.
That was the close to the time that the Rathores were the paramount power in India.

Surat grant of Trilochanapala, of 1151 A.D.
Kanyakubje Maharaja Rastrakutaya kanyakam \
labdhra sukhaya tasi/dm tvam Cauluky-apnuhi santatim \\

Soon after that though by 1200AD their power completely collapsed, Kannauj fell, and much of the clan moved west, mainly to the Jodhpur area.

Is it possible that for the Bais the pivotal person is Man and not Mal?
A Man Bais is mentioned in Unnao Bais annals as having left for Delhi.
"The western Bais say that thirteen generations ago Bikai Sah immigrated into the pargana from some place in Baiswara on the banks of the Ganges, and founded a village which he named after his son ... Man Sah, the fifth in descent from Maichan, took service at Delhi, and became a favourite of the emperor; but it does not appear that he was ever advanced to particular rank, and he made no attempt to use his influence to the advantage of his kinsmen ... These Bais say, quite frankly, that it was the custom at that time for each taluqdar to have a son made Muhammadan in the hope that in the most disastrous case a bigoted emperor might not wholly deprive the family of their lands, and that in more ordinary times they might have a near and certain friend privileged with the entree of the Musalman courts. Many taluqdars, it is said, showed similar caution at a more modern date by sending one relative to the British force and another to the rebels ..."

Traditionally, the Awadh Bais have claimed descent from Shalivahan/Salbahan - one of the most important emperors of India who used to rule from Paithan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalivahana

Kapisa
10-03-2020, 02:39 AM
Hello,

I used 23&me services to get tested and I just want to share my results with you guys.

Into/history first: I belong to a quintessential salt range/pothwar Rajput tribe. I hail from a village situated in Jhelum district of the Pakistani Punjab. My 28th ancestor Raja Mal Dev embraced Islam in the 12th Century; and I come from the line of his second son Raja Jodh through his decendant Malik Darwesh Khan of Darapur. Being a general in the Mughal imperial army, Malik Darwesh Khan was involved in Mirza Hakim campaign, among many others. The current chief of the tribe also comes from this line.

Since we accepted Islam such a long time ago, we have been mostly marrying within the tribe for centuries. Outside the tribe, we marry among the Gakhars traditionally and among the Chibhs of Jammu rarely. Within the last 4 generations only one female ancestor(my maternal great mother's mother was a Gakhar) of mine was from outside the tribe. This lady and my 27th Great Grandfather Raja Jodh's mother (also Gakhar) are the only women, that I know for sure, who were from outside the tribe. From this knowledge we can extrapolate that I overwhelmingly belong to just one stock; with slight colorations primarily coming from the Gakhar gene pool.



Now to my DNA results:

My Y-DNA haplogroup is R-M417.
My mtDNA haplogroup is M52a.



My GenePlaze K-12 admixtures are as follow:

Western Euro Farmers: 2.2
Levant: 5.8
Neolithic Iran CHG: 23.8
Eastern Euro Farmer: 5.6
Total Ancient farmer: 37.4

Scythian: 14.5
Andronova: 13.5
Yamnaya: 7.4
Total Steppe: 35.3

Southeast Eurasia: 24.3

East African: 1.9
Total African: 1.9

Eastern Non African 1.2


Hey, My family ancestry at least from historic record is from the same area. Specifically, Salt Range village of Khotaka(Ahmedabad). My ancestry reaches back (at least in terms of oral and written tradition) to Raja Bhir (Vir) the elder brother of Raja Jodh both sons of Mal Dev.
In terms of genetics, my Paternal haplogroup is R-Y7 and maternal mitochondrial haplogroup is R30b. R30b I have read is common among Punjabis.

Geneplaze K-35 Bronze and Iron Age Admixture is:
Indus Valley Iron Age = 38.2%
--Saidu Sharif =17.6%
--Leobanr =16%
--Uregram =4.6%
Uzbekistan Bronze Age (BMAC) = 16.8%
--Sappali Tepe = 9.3%
--Dzarkutan =7.6%
Saka/Hun/Sarmatians = 13.3%
--Saka/Hun Tien ShanB = 10.4%
--Saka/Hun Tien ShanA= 1.2%
--Sarmatians = 1.7%
Steppe MLBA West=8.8%
Steppe MLBA East =4.8%
European Bronze Age(Balkans/SE Europe)=1.8%
West Asian+NE Iranian(Chalcolithic_BronzeAge)=3.1%
Recent Ancestry:
--South East Asian =4.9%
--Ancestral South Indian = 4.8%
--East African =2.1%

MonkeyDLuffy
10-03-2020, 05:13 AM
Hey, My family ancestry at least from historic record is from the same area. Specifically, Salt Range village of Khotaka(Ahmedabad). My ancestry reaches back (at least in terms of oral and written tradition) to Raja Bhir (Vir) the elder brother of Raja Jodh both sons of Mal Dev.
In terms of genetics, my Paternal haplogroup is R-Y7 and maternal mitochondrial haplogroup is R30b. R30b I have read is common among Punjabis.

Geneplaze K-35 Bronze and Iron Age Admixture is:
Indus Valley Iron Age = 38.2%
--Saidu Sharif =17.6%
--Leobanr =16%
--Uregram =4.6%
Uzbekistan Bronze Age (BMAC) = 16.8%
--Sappali Tepe = 9.3%
--Dzarkutan =7.6%
Saka/Hun/Sarmatians = 13.3%
--Saka/Hun Tien ShanB = 10.4%
--Saka/Hun Tien ShanA= 1.2%
--Sarmatians = 1.7%
Steppe MLBA West=8.8%
Steppe MLBA East =4.8%
European Bronze Age(Balkans/SE Europe)=1.8%
West Asian+NE Iranian(Chalcolithic_BronzeAge)=3.1%
Recent Ancestry:
--South East Asian =4.9%
--Ancestral South Indian = 4.8%
--East African =2.1%

Fellow R1a-Y7 Punjabi here. Welcome to the forum brother. What's your Harappa scores?

Kapisa
10-03-2020, 12:44 PM
Fellow R1a-Y7 Punjabi here. Welcome to the forum brother. What's your Harappa scores?

Population Admixture:
Baloch=44.35%
South Indian=28.75%
Caucasian=12.52%
NE European=6.14%
Siberian=2.3%
American=1.4%
South West Asian=3.28%

Also, I am particularly interested in the prevalence of Y7,Y6 and mitochondrial R30b geographically. I known R30b has been identified in Punjab, Gujrat and Nepal. Any specifics??

MonkeyDLuffy
10-03-2020, 07:33 PM
Population Admixture:
Baloch=44.35%
South Indian=28.75%
Caucasian=12.52%
NE European=6.14%
Siberian=2.3%
American=1.4%
South West Asian=3.28%

Also, I am particularly interested in the prevalence of Y7,Y6 and mitochondrial R30b geographically. I known R30b has been identified in Punjab, Gujrat and Nepal. Any specifics??

Are you Gujjar by any chance?

agent_lime
10-03-2020, 08:46 PM
Are you Gujjar by any chance?

He is in the Bhatia range too.

Kapisa
10-03-2020, 10:11 PM
Are you Gujjar by any chance?

No bro. Janjua Rajput, similar to 'Heir of Gandhara.' Though I have read census reports from British Raj 1841, 1901 and 1911 of Janjuas counted in Hoshiarpur, Sialkot, Jehlum, Attock and Rawalpindi.

Rahuls77
10-04-2020, 06:59 AM
No bro. Janjua Rajput, similar to 'Heir of Gandhara.' Though I have read census reports from British Raj 1841, 1901 and 1911 of Janjuas counted in Hoshiarpur, Sialkot, Jehlum, Attock and Rawalpindi.

What specific part of Pothwar does your family come from?

Kapisa
10-04-2020, 12:20 PM
What specific part of Pothwar does your family come from?

Ancestoral village is Khotaka(known as Ahmedabad) now. But the larger family lives in villages in Salt range areas of District Khushab, District Chakwal, Pind Dadan Khan and urban areas of Punjab principally Islamabad/Pindi.

Rahuls77
10-04-2020, 02:39 PM
Ancestoral village is Khotaka(known as Ahmedabad) now. But the larger family lives in villages in Salt range areas of District Khushab, District Chakwal, Pind Dadan Khan and urban areas of Punjab principally Islamabad/Pindi.

Thank, asked you for I know a lot of Janjuas from Kahuta area, but only a few from Chakwal and south.

Kapisa
10-04-2020, 05:26 PM
Thank, asked you for I know a lot of Janjuas from Kahuta area, but only a few from Chakwal and south.

It's good you asked. We are all the same bunch. Although with recent admixtures genetically speaking: I can recall marital links to Awans in my side of the family.That is why I take the admixture results with a grain of salt unless we have large enough data. Other groups might have married into Gakhars etc. Marital relation with Syeds are also common.

Rahuls77
10-05-2020, 03:13 AM
It's good you asked. We are all the same bunch. Although with recent admixtures genetically speaking: I can recall marital links to Awans in my side of the family.That is why I take the admixture results with a grain of salt unless we have large enough data. Other groups might have married into Gakhars etc. Marital relation with Syeds are also common.

Yes, Janjuas have been through the span of Pothwar for at least a thousand years. And yes, in North Eastern Pothwar, Janjuas do intermarry with the Gakhars. One of my Janjua friends married a girl from a Punjabi Pathan family, Gen Hamid Gul's.

hj111
10-05-2020, 04:06 PM
@Kapisa: Would you be willing to share your harappadna oracle results? It would be interesting to see the populations you match closely with.

hj111
10-05-2020, 04:07 PM
Population Admixture:
Baloch=44.35%
South Indian=28.75%
Caucasian=12.52%
NE European=6.14%
Siberian=2.3%
American=1.4%
South West Asian=3.28%

Also, I am particularly interested in the prevalence of Y7,Y6 and mitochondrial R30b geographically. I known R30b has been identified in Punjab, Gujrat and Nepal. Any specifics??

PS: your original comment

Rahuls77
10-06-2020, 02:05 PM
Hey, My family ancestry at least from historic record is from the same area. Specifically, Salt Range village of Khotaka(Ahmedabad). My ancestry reaches back (at least in terms of oral and written tradition) to Raja Bhir (Vir) the elder brother of Raja Jodh both sons of Mal Dev.
In terms of genetics, my Paternal haplogroup is R-Y7 and maternal mitochondrial haplogroup is R30b. R30b I have read is common among Punjabis.

Geneplaze K-35 Bronze and Iron Age Admixture is:
Indus Valley Iron Age = 38.2%
--Saidu Sharif =17.6%
--Leobanr =16%
--Uregram =4.6%
Uzbekistan Bronze Age (BMAC) = 16.8%
--Sappali Tepe = 9.3%
--Dzarkutan =7.6%
Saka/Hun/Sarmatians = 13.3%
--Saka/Hun Tien ShanB = 10.4%
--Saka/Hun Tien ShanA= 1.2%
--Sarmatians = 1.7%
Steppe MLBA West=8.8%
Steppe MLBA East =4.8%
European Bronze Age(Balkans/SE Europe)=1.8%
West Asian+NE Iranian(Chalcolithic_BronzeAge)=3.1%
Recent Ancestry:
--South East Asian =4.9%
--Ancestral South Indian = 4.8%
--East African =2.1%

A Matori, Kahutaywal!

Kapisa
10-06-2020, 02:53 PM
A Matori, Kahutaywal!

Though not original form there, most of my relatives now live in the Islamabad metro area. I have heard about Janjuas living in Matore, which I believe is somewhere on the road from Kahuta, coming from Rawalpindi.

Kapisa
10-06-2020, 03:07 PM
@Kapisa: Would you be willing to share your harappadna oracle results? It would be interesting to see the populations you match closely with.

My oracle results, though I did some with ancient populations to get a clear pic.
1:MLDP K23
40077
MLDP World22
40080
Dodecad K12b
40081

Kapisa
10-06-2020, 03:24 PM
My oracle results, though I did some with ancient populations to get a clear pic.
1:MLDP K23
40077
MLDP World22
40080
Dodecad K12b
40081

I keep seeing an EAsian/ANEurasian related admixture in all my calculators between approx 5-8%. Now I know ANE admixture is present in ancient Indus periphery samples from the Reich papers (correct me if I am wrong) but I have a reason to suspect a recent (post Iron Age:800BC-1CE) admixture. My Geneplaza K35 shows Saka/Hun/Sarmatian related ancestry at 13% from 2000-2800 yrs from now. The Tien Shan Saka and Hun samples from https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Analyses-of-Iron-Age-clusters-a-PCA-of-Iron-Age-nomads-and-ancestral-sources-explaining_fig7_325047876/actions
this paper shows an EAsian Admixture along with Neolithic Iranic and European farmer related. Could this be significant enough to believe that its from late Iron Age Steppe Saka admixture? Other members from Pothwar and Punjab also show Scythian admixture from 2000 yrs ago. I am attaching my Geneplaza K35 and the admixture results from the paper.
40082
40097
40083

Rahuls77
10-06-2020, 07:04 PM
Though not original form there, most of my relatives now live in the Islamabad metro area. I have heard about Janjuas living in Matore, which I believe is somewhere on the road from Kahuta, coming from Rawalpindi.

Given you are a descendant of Raja Mal through his son Raja Bhir, and Matore was where his Mother's family were from.

Actually, Pindi to Matore has two routes, one of which goes through Kahuta and the other via Rawat(the village of Thoha Khalsa is on the way, minutes before you reach Matore). My friend showed me that turn to the left of the road, when were driving to Mandra, from Islamabad.

Kapisa
10-08-2020, 05:12 AM
You see when I go to my village, I see people with chohan rajput and bhatti on the walls, but when I ask my cousin he says Awaan. I then discussed it with another cousin, he says we are chohan rajput. Apparantly the people who are actually awans have called everyone malik etc and never mistaken it and some rajputs do apparantly have titles of malik too. I dont know if I have made any sense here but, but if someone can tell me something informative would be great. I am not into this caste thing. We are already mixed people. I have pathans (women mostly) aswell as others amongst the probably other biradaris too. My father says, Malik/Raja everytime i ask.

My dad says Rajputs in that area have historically used Raja, Malik, Sultan and even Khan as title. One difference is that titles of Khan/Malik/Sultan are usually for those lines descending from the Tribal Head, the rest use the title Raja. Now a days its probably a mix. This system of head of clan vs other tribe members reminds me of the Scotish clans.

Kapisa
10-08-2020, 05:35 AM
Not admixture wise but some tribes like Janjuas have their origins in pindi/jhelum. So janjuas found in other districs of punjab like we got user here from Gujrat who was janjua, who's ancestors likely migrated from their origin point in Jhelum or Pindi.

With just admixture results it will be hard to tell.

Janjuas like other Rajputs I know in the area tend to be endogamous or marry within the region. At least that's historically been the case. So unless their is an admixture from out of tribe, my guess is genetic admixture would not change much just by migration. Ofcourse there are anomalies in every case. Attached paper shows the level of endogamy among various British Pakistani groups. It has admixtures as well. Though it's a preprint n not peer reviewed.http://https://europepmc.org/article/ppr/ppr208712

Amber29
10-08-2020, 07:28 AM
My dad says Rajputs in that area have historically used Raja, Malik, Sultan and even Khan as title. One difference is that titles of Khan/Malik/Sultan are usually for those lines descending from the Tribal Head, the rest use the title Raja. Now a days its probably a mix. This system of head of clan vs other tribe members reminds me of the Scotish clans.

I just got told about this from my cousin yday haha. Khan most of my grandfathers do carry this surname and yes its relevant to chieftain etc

hj111
10-08-2020, 10:13 PM
My oracle results, though I did some with ancient populations to get a clear pic.
1:MLDP K23
40077
MLDP World22
40080
Dodecad K12b
40081

Thanks for sharing. I was interested in seeing your closest matches in harappadna calculator. If I'm not mistaken, they tend to be the most accurate right?

Also, here's how you compare with OP on harappa:

OP "Heir of Gandhara" :

# Population Percent
Baloch 39.96
S-Indian 29.59
Caucasian 14.13
NE-Euro 7.99
SW-Asian 2.38
SE-Asian 1.93
Beringian 1.44
Siberian 1.42
Papuan 0.46
American 0.4
San 0.32

Yours:

Baloch=44.35%
South Indian=28.75%
Caucasian=12.52%
NE European=6.14%
Siberian=2.3%
American=1.4%
South West Asian=3.28%

Interesting results. The OP claimed Gakhar admixture and you have Awan admix? Is your ancestral village in Chakwal or Khushab districts?

PS: Anyone know why some south asians show a high "south east asian" admix on some calculators like OP did?

Kapisa
10-08-2020, 11:59 PM
Thanks for sharing. I was interested in seeing your closest matches in harappadna calculator. If I'm not mistaken, they tend to be the most accurate right?

Also, here's how you compare with OP on harappa:

OP "Heir of Gandhara" :

# Population Percent
Baloch 39.96
S-Indian 29.59
Caucasian 14.13
NE-Euro 7.99
SW-Asian 2.38
SE-Asian 1.93
Beringian 1.44
Siberian 1.42
Papuan 0.46
American 0.4
San 0.32

Yours:

Baloch=44.35%
South Indian=28.75%
Caucasian=12.52%
NE European=6.14%
Siberian=2.3%
American=1.4%
South West Asian=3.28%

Interesting results. The OP claimed Gakhar admixture and you have Awan admix? Is your ancestral village in Chakwal or Khushab districts?

PS: Anyone know why some south asians show a high "south east asian" admix on some calculators like OP did?

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 sindhi_hgdp @ 4.622879
2 punjabi-arain_xing @ 4.783829
3 sindhi_harappa @ 5.756065
4 bhatia_harappa @ 7.141368
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 7.753761
6 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 7.789177
7 punjabi_harappa @ 7.859626
8 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 8.027186
9 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 8.181544
10 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 8.634720
11 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 8.722095
12 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 8.874183
13 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 8.946310
14 kashmiri_harappa @ 8.962938
15 pathan_hgdp @ 8.967070
16 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 9.806120
17 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 10.252122
18 kalash_hgdp @ 11.027546
19 burusho_hgdp @ 11.302428
20 up-muslim_harappa @ 12.725288

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% sindhi_harappa +50% sindhi_hgdp @ 3.163950


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% kalash_hgdp +25% makrani_hgdp +25% naidu_reich @ 2.773324


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 brahui_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + meghawal_metspalu + sindhi_harappa @ 2.213294
2 balochi_hgdp + bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + tamil_harappa @ 2.233131
3 brahui_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + pathan_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.235631
4 balochi_hgdp + bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.256083
5 balochi_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + pathan_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.280992
6 brahui_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + naidu_reich @ 2.284815
7 bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + makrani_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.284934
8 balochi_hgdp + bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + meghawal_metspalu @ 2.300093
9 balochi_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + meghawal_metspalu + sindhi_harappa @ 2.316076
10 brahui_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + sindhi_harappa + velama_reich @ 2.319000
11 balochi_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + pathan_hgdp + velama_metspalu @ 2.340857
12 brahui_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + meghawal_metspalu + punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 2.357655
13 balochi_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + kurmi_metspalu + sindhi_harappa @ 2.387939
14 brahui_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + kurumba_metspalu @ 2.389601
15 brahui_hgdp + pathan_hgdp + pathan_hgdp + velama_reich @ 2.414135
16 andhra-pradesh_harappa + balochi_hgdp + bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp @ 2.426470
17 brahui_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + pathan_hgdp + velama_metspalu @ 2.432445
18 balochi_hgdp + bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + velama_metspalu @ 2.449776
19 brahui_hgdp + kalash_hgdp + kashmiri_harappa + meghawal_metspalu @ 2.453677
20 balochi_hgdp + bhatia_harappa + kalash_hgdp + karnataka_harappa @ 2.454075

From Zach's post on Harappa Oracle:
"While HarappaOracle is a great tool, it has its limitations.

First of all, do not think of the mixed mode results as showing which populations you are descended from. Use HarappaOracle to get an idea of which populations are similar to you in their admixture results. This function is especially important since admixture results should be understood in relative terms, as I have been stressing.

Sometimes, for mixed-race people, the Oracle might sometimes provide a correct result like it does for me. For others, the known ancestral mix might not show up.

There is also the fact that the Oracle calculator is sensitive to your admixture percentages and sometimes small changes can change the Oracle mixed mode results radically."

My ancestral village is in the Salt Range. I cannot disclose exact locations unfortunately since my family still lives nearby.

parasar
10-12-2020, 07:49 PM
No bro. Janjua Rajput, similar to 'Heir of Gandhara.' Though I have read census reports from British Raj 1841, 1901 and 1911 of Janjuas counted in Hoshiarpur, Sialkot, Jehlum, Attock and Rawalpindi.

Is he Y7 too?
Good to see another Janjua. It occurs to me that the history of Janjuas and some Muhial clans is related going back to the Arab invasion period.


My dad says Rajputs in that area have historically used Raja, Malik, Sultan and even Khan as title. One difference is that titles of Khan/Malik/Sultan are usually for those lines descending from the Tribal Head, the rest use the title Raja. Now a days its probably a mix. This system of head of clan vs other tribe members reminds me of the Scotish clans.

In our babhan case we do not use Malik and Sultan, but Singh, Thakur, and Sahi are very common.
Raja (In the past per Buchanan Hamilton. The Raja is said to date to the Licchavi period where each Licchavi family head considered himself to be a Rajan), Sen, and Mall have disappeared. The Licchavis too were similar to Scotish clans.

Kapisa
10-12-2020, 09:13 PM
Is he Y7 too?
Good to see another Janjua. It occurs to me that the history of Janjuas and some Muhial clans is related going back to the Arab invasion period.



In our babhan case we do not use Malik and Sultan, but Singh, Thakur, and Sahi are very common.
Raja (In the past per Buchanan Hamilton. The Raja is said to date to the Licchavi period where each Licchavi family head considered himself to be a Rajan), Sen, and Mall have disappeared. The Licchavis too were similar to Scotish clans.

He is R-M417(R1a1a1). Which is upstream of R1aY7. He did not test for subclades. R-M417 is 5800 yrs old i.e. 3800BC. Y7 is 3900 ybp or 1900BC. Both are abundant in NW India. Except Y7 is India specific probably originated among IndoIranians.

Its always good to hear about family traditions similar to ours. In my family genealogy the last names before the 1000AD Ghaznavid invasion are Pal, Dev and Sen. Though there is a tendency for certain genealogies to trace back to Rajputana, (mine goes back to Mathura!!!) Best estimate in my opinion is that we were indigenous chieftains in and around lower Himalayas and Pothwar that have been mentioned in Rajatarangini that had marital relations with other chieftains of Kashmir and Himanchal. And after the Ghaznavite invasions came under their suzerainty. Genetically we are similar to NW Indians because of martial relations going back ages.

parasar
10-12-2020, 10:13 PM
He is R-M417(R1a1a1). Which is upstream of R1aY7. He did not test for subclades. R-M417 is 5800 yrs old i.e. 3800BC. Y7 is 3900 ybp or 1900BC. Both are abundant in NW India. Except Y7 is India specific probably originated among IndoIranians.

...
Yes quite possible.

Y7 has a presence in Arabia. The holder of the Kaaba's key is Y7.
Also seen in Iran, Iraq, Kazakh Babasan, and even in parts of China. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y7/
Some Jews and Algerians are also possibly Y7.

My line is Y9(xY7) [I'm from Bihar], and has been seen to date in Gujarat, Lanka, and Andhra with the closest common SNPs Y2392/3 in Andhra.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2351/

Interestingly there are some reported M780xM634xB163 lines in India and there is one Y3* in Brazil! (possibly a Jew/Marrano from Minas Gerais).

Kapisa
10-12-2020, 10:27 PM
Yes quite possible.

Y7 has a presence in Arabia. The holder of the Kaaba's key is Y7.
Also seen in Iran, Iraq, Kazakh Babasan, and even in parts of China. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y7/
Some Jews and Algerians are also possibly Y7.

My line is Y9(xY7) [I'm from Bihar], and has been seen to date in Gujarat, Lanka, and Andhra with the closest common SNPs Y2392/3 in Andhra.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2351/

Interestingly there are some reported M780xM634xB163 lines in India and there is one Y3* in Brazil! (possibly a Jew/Marrano from Minas Gerais).

What I meant was its around the time period when IndoIranian group hasn't split into Iranian and IndoAryan branches. It might have ended up in West Asia (Arabia/Levant) and Central and East Asia though countless speakers of Iranian family like the Sythians, Persians, Medians etc.

parasar
10-12-2020, 11:16 PM
What I meant was its around the time period when IndoIranian group hasn't split into Iranian and IndoAryan branches. It might have ended up in West Asia (Arabia/Levant) and Central and East Asia though countless speakers of Iranian family like the Sythians, Persians, Medians etc.

Yes that is what I uderstood you to be saying. I tend not to use modern linguistic designations such as Indo-Iranian or Balto-Slavic, but at least they are not as bad as complete misnomers such as Tokharians and Dardics.

Another sample that may be of interest to L657 folk is from the Khazar period:
Sample 1986, Mongoloid, mtDNA C4a1c, Pazyryk IA type
Kurgan burial ground Talovy II is in the Orlovsky district of the Rostov region. It was excavated in 2004 by the expedition of the Archaeological Research Bureau, Rostov-on-Don. Sample 1986 was the primary grave of Kurgan 3. It belonged to a male, aged 35 - 45 years. The man was buried along with a horse and a camel. The grave is of the pit type with niches in the southern and western walls. The burial was not robbed, providing multiple artifacts, including arrowheads, ivory bow overlays, and a flail. The main finding is a reliquary made from a carved deer antler, showing combat scenes between a rider and a foot soldier. Considering the item’s complexity and level of craftsmanship, it is a rare find worldwide, and the only one found in the Lower Don area. The burial is dated between the second half of the VIIIth - and early IXth century.

We do not have SNP confirmation unfortunately, only STRs.
1986: 13 25 16 11 11 15 10 13 11 32—16 24 14 20 32 13 15 18 11 23
Projected by Nevgen:
R1a-Z93>Z94>L657>Y9

Kapisa
10-12-2020, 11:31 PM
Yes that is what I uderstood you to be saying. I tend not to use modern linguistic designations such as Indo-Iranian or Balto-Slavic, but at least they are not as bad as complete misnomers such as Tokharians and Dardics.

Another sample that may be of interest to L657 folk is from the Khazar period:
Sample 1986, Mongoloid, mtDNA C4a1c, Pazyryk IA type
Kurgan burial ground Talovy II is in the Orlovsky district of the Rostov region. It was excavated in 2004 by the expedition of the Archaeological Research Bureau, Rostov-on-Don. Sample 1986 was the primary grave of Kurgan 3. It belonged to a male, aged 35 - 45 years. The man was buried along with a horse and a camel. The grave is of the pit type with niches in the southern and western walls. The burial was not robbed, providing multiple artifacts, including arrowheads, ivory bow overlays, and a flail. The main finding is a reliquary made from a carved deer antler, showing combat scenes between a rider and a foot soldier. Considering the item’s complexity and level of craftsmanship, it is a rare find worldwide, and the only one found in the Lower Don area. The burial is dated between the second half of the VIIIth - and early IXth century.

We do not have SNP confirmation unfortunately, only STRs.
1986: 13 25 16 11 11 15 10 13 11 32—16 24 14 20 32 13 15 18 11 23
Projected by Nevgen:
R1a-Z93>Z94>L657>Y9

Its interesting you point this out since last I checked Swat Iron Age samples dont show R1a and its subclades...Does that mean a later admixture?

parasar
10-12-2020, 11:50 PM
Its interesting you point this out since last I checked Swat Iron Age samples dont show R1a and its subclades...Does that mean a later admixture?

In their latest iteration - the one published - there were a couple of Iron Age Z93.
R5a2 R1a1a1b 431-168 calBCE I2955
W3a1 R1a1a1b 1044-922 calBCE I12457
M3a2 R1a1a1 824-792 calBCE I12450

But nothing like the high %ages at the present.
So there are two possibilities - an extreme expansion of some clans or a later intrusion.

The earliest confirmed L657 is from Roopkund.

parasar
10-13-2020, 12:02 AM
In their latest iteration - the one published - there were a couple of Iron Age Z93.
R5a2 R1a1a1b 431-168 calBCE I2955
W3a1 R1a1a1b 1044-922 calBCE I12457
M3a2 R1a1a1 824-792 calBCE I12450

But nothing like the high %ages at the present.
So there are two possibilities - an extreme expansion of some clans or a later intrusion.

The earliest confirmed L657 is from Roopkund.

See also:
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,12152.45.html

Rahuls77
10-13-2020, 02:05 AM
Is he Y7 too?
Good to see another Janjua. It occurs to me that the history of Janjuas and some Muhial clans is related going back to the Arab invasion period.


Its NOT Arab but the Turkic period, coinciding with the times of Sabuktayin and his son Sultan Mahmood, and according to one friend, Janjuas themselves are descendants of the Shahiyas, with some Turkic and Scythian ancestry.
Whether the Mohyal clan of Balis, the offshoot which came to be known as Bamniyals, are related to the Janjuas, its very difficult to say that with certainty as it is to deny it.

Coldmountains
10-13-2020, 05:51 AM
What I meant was its around the time period when IndoIranian group hasn't split into Iranian and IndoAryan branches. It might have ended up in West Asia (Arabia/Levant) and Central and East Asia though countless speakers of Iranian family like the Sythians, Persians, Medians etc.

Y7 and generally L657 don't have any clades, which i would associate with Proto-Iranic ancestry. There is today L657 among Iranics and Arabs but this can easier be explained by Indo-Aryan substrates or migration of people from South Asia and Gedrosia. L657, Y4 and Y9 branched off around 4000-5000 years ago and in my opinion rather around 4500-5000 years ago if not slightly earlier. So L657 and likely even Y4/Y9 started to grew around the phase of the early Indo-Iranian split, which was also around 4000-4500 years ago. That would also explain why L657 is so far absent among all Iron Age Saka/Scythian/Hun samples. We actually have a big sample size for Sarmatians, Huns, Scythians, Saka and Iron Age North Iranics and nowhere was any L657 found yet. L657 would be already almost entirely restricted to South Asia and South-Central Asia (Afghanistan,..) during this time. It is also unlikely that L657 played a big role among ancient Persians or Medians because L657 has a very low frequency in Iran/Kurdistan outside of Balochistan and Khorasan ( around 1-3%).

L657 and Y9 arrived with the earliest Indo-Iranian migrations and likely played a major if not dominant role among earliest Indo-Aryans. Swat IA lacking it is misleading because this region makes only a tiny part of the Indian subcontinent and even today natives in the region are not that rich in L657. Kalash for example lack it today too.

Coldmountains
10-13-2020, 07:39 AM
Its NOT Arab but the Turkic period, coinciding with the times of Sabuktayin and his son Sultan Mahmood, and according to one friend, Janjuas themselves are descendants of the Shahiyas, with some Turkic and Scythian ancestry.
Whether the Mohyal clan of Balis, the offshoot which came to be known as Bamniyals, are related to the Janjuas, its very difficult to say that with certainty as it is to deny it.

I expect L657 to be born in early Corded Ware (around the Dnjepr and Don) or very late Sredny Stog. We have a sample positive for Z94+ and likely even Y3+ (ancestral to L657) from Sredny Stog around 6000 years ago. Y6 and Y9 would be born later in early Abashevo or Fatyanovo i think. So somewhere between the Don and Ural. Z94 is confrimed for Fatyanovo and many rumours talk about it in Abashevo,too. But we will need very much luck to find the sites of our Y3 and L657 ancestors in these cultures because both cultures had probably a Z94>Z2124 majority and have not that many studied archaelogical sites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abashevo_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatyanovo%E2%80%93Balanovo_culture

parasar
10-27-2020, 03:38 PM
Its NOT Arab but the Turkic period, coinciding with the times of Sabuktayin and his son Sultan Mahmood, and according to one friend, Janjuas themselves are descendants of the Shahiyas, with some Turkic and Scythian ancestry.
Whether the Mohyal clan of Balis, the offshoot which came to be known as Bamniyals, are related to the Janjuas, its very difficult to say that with certainty as it is to deny it.

I am referring to the Muhiyal period of history in Sindh, Gurjara, Malwa, and Mathura.

The Muhiyal kabits reference a battle on the river Amravati which the British writers construed as being the Ravi as that is the whereabouts of Muhiyals presently.

"Tradition also declares that Raja Dahar defeated a Sultan on the banks of the Amravati across which river the beaten Army fled; and Dahar's victory was proclaimed at[sic] Gujarat."

Rose discounts this and says: "Clearly the Ravi is meant" https://books.google.com/books?id=Th3Mu-_RwjQC&pg=PA134

But the Muhiyals are referring to the battle of Nausari on the Amravati (the river near Broach has dried up for the most part and is now a seasonal drainage/overflow channel https://www.google.com/maps/place/AMRAVATI+RIVER,+DADHAL/@21.6354579,72.7936225,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x7f08e6054364b15c!8m2!3d21.63 53797!4d73.0650351 ).

Kapisa
11-01-2020, 06:53 PM
Its NOT Arab but the Turkic period, coinciding with the times of Sabuktayin and his son Sultan Mahmood, and according to one friend, Janjuas themselves are descendants of the Shahiyas, with some Turkic and Scythian ancestry.
Whether the Mohyal clan of Balis, the offshoot which came to be known as Bamniyals, are related to the Janjuas, its very difficult to say that with certainty as it is to deny it.

I would expect Janjuas themselves to have more than one paternal Y-clade not just Y7. @Rahuls77: I have heard a lot about Janjuas being connected to HinduShahis but not sure if the evidence is conclusive: I am referring to a reference in Islamic sources of a Rai Jahaj quoted by British historians, but no other source corroborates that even Alberuni doesn't.
However, I do think there seems to be an alliance between the Mohiyals (esp. Bali and Bhimwals) and Janjuas. I would be interested in knowing the Mohiyal history in the region. Brahmins most likely were an integral part of the Hindu Shahi period, there seems to be a disagreement in scholars whether Shahis were Brahmins or not. Tilla Jogian, Katas Raj, Amb Shareef, Kafirkot all had been integral part of the community until about the time of late Mughals when significant population had converted.

parasar
11-14-2020, 07:02 PM
... The funny part is that my mother's ancestor was his cousin, and they adopted or had a Brahman identity, some known as Bamniyals and a few Raniyals. They lived in and around Matore for centuries until 1947. My cousin once told me that they even had the Samadhi of that ancestor besides the Mazaar of Dada Peer Kala.


...
Whether the Mohyal clan of Balis, the offshoot which came to be known as Bamniyals, are related to the Janjuas, its very difficult to say that with certainty as it is to deny it.

Do we know the Bamniyal Y line?

Rahuls77
11-14-2020, 09:25 PM
Do we know the Bamniyal Y line?

I can try asking any of my cousins to get a test, however I am not sure if anybody will seriously consider doing it.