View Full Version : Z18 vs. Z381

Wing Genealogist
12-05-2017, 01:34 AM
Z18 is the second largest subclade below U106, but Z18 is entirely dwarfed by Z381. What I find somewhat remarkable is that the second largest subclade of Z381 (Z156) appears to be older and larger than Z18.

Recently, the Z156 clade has been broken down into three different SNP Packs (DF96, DF98, & Z156 xDF96xDF98) and all three SNP Packs are bursting at the seams with SNPs. Z18 is currently comprised of only one SNP pack. It is up to the Z18 & Subclades Project to decide whether the Z18 clade should be broken up into two SNP Packs.

Wing Genealogist
09-14-2018, 07:57 PM
Hello everyone
I have just been rated RZ18 + I am RZ156-
RZ381 has not been tested (it is this one that interested me the most because of my 37 STR Y r very close to RZ381 +) my question is the following: can one be RZ18 + and RZ381 + at the same time?
Thanks for your help

If you are Z18+ then you HAVE to be Z381-.

If you don't mind my asking, where did you receive your Z18+ result from? Am I correct in believing it is from a test like 23andMe or LivingDNA?

For U106 (which covers both Z18 & Z381) I do try to keep track of what SNPs are appearing in what DNA tests.

To a degree, U106 can be thought of as mammals while Z18 can be a cat & Z381 a dog. Z18 (cat) and Z381 (dog) are both U106 (mammal) but Z18 (cat) cannot be Z381 (dog)


Wing Genealogist
09-19-2018, 12:33 AM
Sometimes STR results can be misleading, especially for R1b-M269. Z18 & Z381 split almost 5,000 years ago, so it is simply a coincidence you match 28/37 of the Bourbon markers.

09-20-2018, 02:18 AM
Merci beaucoup pour votre réponse
C’est un test via Igenea sous groupe de famillytree dna États Unis
J’etair Particulierment interresse du RZ381 a cause de ma grande proximité des 37 marqueurs STR avec les Bourbons ( 28 identiques les autres très proches )
Mais je suis RZ18+ désormais je ne sais pas si il y a des liens généalogiques communs

Being that you are Z18+... some ancient/medieval samples that you DO match at the Z18 level (though do we know what subgroups under Z18 you are positive for by chance?):

SZ 4: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z18>Z372/S375 by A. Williamson: male aged 30-40 years of age. Skull shape Dolichocrany. Height: 166.0 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance and rectangular enclosures surrounding graves 4 and 5 are also worth mentioning and suggest that there was some sort of a relationship between the deceased. While only a few parallels are known in the West [18], such features may point to Roman traditions [19]; given that the site was situated within the former Roman Empire, this would be an element specific to Szólád. Stress markers etc: Cribra orbitalia; enamel hypoplasia; sharp-force trauma right os parietale; periosteal lesions right maxilla; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; caries; periapical lesions. Autosomal: 90% GEU+GBR 10% FIN - this sample is from the Longobard burial site at Szolad, Hungary.

VDP-A7: R-U106/S21 > Z2265 > Z18 > FGC5817 > Y141019 (positive for Z2396 and FGC5798 per Philip Stead and Yfull bam analysis - additionally positive for variant Y141019 shared with Storrie kit #281067 per Philip Stead). Circa about 950 AD. Male skeleton aged 35-45 years. No C4 dating. Typology dating: 850-1050 AD. Buried in a pagan boat grave with four women and two other men (and a dog skeleton) at Vatnsdalur in North West Iceland. Excavators think that one woman was the original burial in the boat grave, and that later grave robbers placed the other bones into the boat grave after they had robbed those graves and then robbed the boat grave. Still many items left in the boat grave, such as a silver Thor’s Hammer pendant, signifying this grave and burial ground as pagan. VDP-A7 was probably a local according to his isotope analysis. Perhaps first generation? One autosomal PCA has him at about half Norse and half Gaelic ancestry, while another in the same paper has almost 80% Norse and 20% Gaelic. Maternal haplogroup: H4a1a1. Woman buried with him and tested: VDP-A5: Maternal haplogroup is H3 and similar in autosomal to him: about 80/20. VDP-A6 was a male buried with him with the Y-DNA haplogroup R1a and maternal haplogroup H1c3a. About 50/50 Norse/Gaelic in his autosomal ancestry. D-stat for pop 1 Norse and pop 2 Gaelic: D-stat = 0.0003. For pop 1 Norse and pop 2 Icelandic: D-stat = 0.001. For pop 1 Gaelic and pop 2 Icelandic: D-stat = 0.0013. Note: Negative values indicate more pop 1 ancestry and positive values indicate more pop 2 ancestry, whereas values close to zero indicate mixed ancestry (as the contemporary Norse and Gaelic are the two best candidate source populations for Icelanders). This sample is from the early Icelandic settlers paper here.

Urm160: R-U106/S21 > Z2265 > Z18 > BY18986 (per Alex Williamson, also R-U106/S21>Z2265>Z18>Z17>S17032 (via equivalent BY18986 per Ray Wing) buried at church 1 (St. Gertrud and the Urmakaren block). Most likely local according to strontium values. Remains from first burial phase (late 10th to 12th the century) in Sigtuna… according to carbon dating: 885 ±35BP. MtDNA: H1q. Autosomal and Isotopes: Local - Swedish/Nowegian? This sample from is from the recent paper on the Swedish trading town of Sigtuna.

These samples are taken from and recorded at my ancient/medieval U106+ sample google doc here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6ZFaJe9gUtwl2r2Iu33B5_kCc6er5n9oEthCe25wV0/edit?usp=sharing

Links to the respective papers for each sample are listed in my google docs etc...