PDA

View Full Version : Some Punjabi Ramgarhia/Tarkhan results and Halogroups



Pages : [1] 2

MonkeyDLuffy
12-11-2017, 06:11 PM
I thought I should make a thread since lots of Tarkhan kits have started popping up on Gedmatch.

Mine (Punjabi Tarkhan, Nangal/hoshiyarpur)

1 Baloch 36.49
2 S-Indian 35.15
3 NE-Euro 12.79
4 Caucasian 10.81
5 Siberian 1.72
6 SW-Asian 0.82
7 Beringian 0.75
8 American 0.71
9 NE-Asian 0.62
10 Papuan 0.15

Rip Sohan (Punjabi Tarkhan, Ludhiana)

1 Baloch 40.64
2 S-Indian 31.82
3 Caucasian 12.49
4 NE-Euro 9
5 Mediterranean 1.71
6 SE-Asian 1.57
7 Beringian 1.14
8 American 0.79
9 SW-Asian 0.36
10 San 0.22
11 Papuan 0.17
12 W-African 0.05
13 NE-Asian 0.02
14 E-African 0.01


Punjabi Tarkhan: Amritsar

1 Baloch 38.16
2 S-Indian 32.89
3 NE-Euro 11.48
4 Caucasian 11.2
5 Siberian 1.8
6 NE-Asian 1.28
7 SW-Asian 1.05
8 American 0.94
9 Beringian 0.39
10 Mediterranean 0.32
11 SE-Asian 0.28
12 San 0.19

Punjabi Tarkhan : Amritsar/Jalandhar

1 Baloch 40.14
2 S-Indian 31.51
3 Caucasian 12.78
4 NE-Euro 10.13
5 NE-Asian 2.2
6 Mediterranean 0.99
7 W-African 0.71
8 SW-Asian 0.55
9 American 0.52
10 Beringian 0.26
11 E-African 0.17
12 San 0.04

Punjabi Tarkhan Amritsar/Jalandhar

1 Baloch 40.33
2 S-Indian 32.16
3 Caucasian 11.61
4 NE-Euro 8.62
5 NE-Asian 2.32
6 Mediterranean 1.87
7 Papuan 1.09
8 SW-Asian 1.05
9 Beringian 0.41
10 American 0.38
11 E-African 0.17
12 Siberian 0.01

Punjabi Tarkhan Ambala (Haryana)

1 Baloch 39.77
2 S-Indian 33.32
3 Caucasian 12.55
4 NE-Euro 7.94
5 Mediterranean 1.99
6 NE-Asian 1.44
7 SW-Asian 1.23
8 Beringian 0.84
9 American 0.77
10 San 0.15

Punjabi Tarkhan Hoshiyarpur

1 Baloch 38.67
2 S-Indian 33.1
3 NE-Euro 12.26
4 Caucasian 9.43
5 Mediterranean 1.72
6 American 1.6
7 Beringian 1.32
8 NE-Asian 0.94
9 SE-Asian 0.75
10 E-African 0.19



Some Y-Halogroups I gathered from my DNA relatives on 23andme:

J-M172 (Highest)
J-M241 (Second Highest)
R-M417(Third Highest)
R-M207
T-M70
R-L266
R-M479
C-M356

Xehanort
12-11-2017, 09:50 PM
Thanks for sharing bro, appreciate it! Have they done Davidski's latest test?

MonkeyDLuffy
12-11-2017, 11:51 PM
Thanks for sharing bro, appreciate it! Have they done Davidski's latest test?

Not that I know of, some of them I had to actually convince to upload data on gedmatch. Maybe some people don't want to go too deep like us.

Xehanort
12-12-2017, 12:03 AM
Not that I know of, some of them I had to actually convince to upload data on gedmatch. Maybe some people don't want to go too deep like us.

Alright, I understand. Thanks for letting me know. Have you done David's tests? Would you post your results? Thanks mate.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-12-2017, 12:14 AM
Alright, I understand. Thanks for letting me know. Have you done David's tests? Would you post your results? Thanks mate.

Which one?

Xehanort
12-12-2017, 12:22 AM
Which one?

Fst4 and Steppe EBA K7, here are my results:

David's fst4, for me:

Reference Populations:
Dai
Iran_N
Yamnaya_Samara

Results:
Dai: 0.182 (18.2%)
Iran_N: 0.455 (45.5%)
Yamnaya_Samara 0.362 (36.2%)

David's Admixture Steppe EBA_K7:

Reference Populations:
Steppe_EBA
Southeast_Asian
Anatolia_N
Sub-Saharan
Northeast_Asian
Euro_HG
Iran_N

Results:
Steppe_EBA: 0.239658 (24%)
Southeast_Asian: 0.099714 (10%)
Anatolia_N: 0.078884 (7.9%)
Sub-Saharan: 0.020627 (2.1%)
Northeast_Asian: 0.076556 (7.7%)
Euro_HG: 0.026345 (2.6%)
Iran_N: 0.458216 (45.8%)

Any thoughts?

jortita
12-12-2017, 02:45 AM
Fst4 and Steppe EBA K7, here are my results:

David's fst4, for me:

Reference Populations:
Dai
Iran_N
Yamnaya_Samara

Results:
Dai: 0.182 (18.2%)
Iran_N: 0.455 (45.5%)
Yamnaya_Samara 0.362 (36.2%)

David's Admixture Steppe EBA_K7:

Reference Populations:
Steppe_EBA
Southeast_Asian
Anatolia_N
Sub-Saharan
Northeast_Asian
Euro_HG
Iran_N

Results:
Steppe_EBA: 0.239658 (24%)
Southeast_Asian: 0.099714 (10%)
Anatolia_N: 0.078884 (7.9%)
Sub-Saharan: 0.020627 (2.1%)
Northeast_Asian: 0.076556 (7.7%)
Euro_HG: 0.026345 (2.6%)
Iran_N: 0.458216 (45.8%)

Any thoughts?

Would really appreciate if you could please let me know on how I can contact Davidski about these two calculators.

Xehanort
12-12-2017, 06:40 AM
Would really appreciate if you could please let me know on how I can contact Davidski about these two calculators.

His email is: [email protected]

The store's closed for December, i.e. he's not doing any DNA analyses for December. :)

jortita
12-12-2017, 06:41 AM
His email is: [email protected]

The store's closed for December, i.e. he's not doing any DNA analyses for December. :)

Ok thanks, will request in January

bmoney
12-12-2017, 07:04 AM
I thought I should make a thread since lots of Tarkhan kits have started popping up on Gedmatch.

Interesting dude - much more of a cluster than I thought - I cannot tell a Ramgarhia from a regular non-chamar Sikh but it seems they are a genetic group, what do Jatt samples look like im comparison?

MonkeyDLuffy
12-16-2017, 06:40 PM
Interesting dude - much more of a cluster than I thought - I cannot tell a Ramgarhia from a regular non-chamar Sikh but it seems they are a genetic group, what do Jatt samples look like im comparison?

Punjabi Jatts and Punjabi Ramgarhia only have few points SI difference, during my conversation with sapporo, Punjabi jatts seems to be falling between 29-32% SI range, while Tarkhans seems to be 31-34% so far. I dont have any Jatt gedmatch kits, I'll take a look in my matches if I can find any.

About them clustering together, I'd agree, especially on 23andme. My top matches are Tarkhans/Ramgarhias exclusively with some jatts, and 2-3 Afghans. So Tarkhans do make a cluster.

Xehanort
12-16-2017, 10:50 PM
Punjabi Jatts and Punjabi Ramgarhia only have few points SI difference, during my conversation with sapporo, Punjabi jatts seems to be falling between 29-32% SI range, while Tarkhans seems to be 31-34% so far. I dont have any Jatt gedmatch kits, I'll take a look in my matches if I can find any.

About them clustering together, I'd agree, especially on 23andme. My top matches are Tarkhans/Ramgarhias exclusively with some jatts, and 2-3 Afghans. So Tarkhans do make a cluster.

Yeah, I agree. Tarkhans are similar to Gujjars, very much actually. Our average of ASI is between 30 and 33. Yours is a bit high on Harappa, though, I don't think it has to do with actual higher South Indian component, it's just the way in which the calculator was created. I suggest you do David's latest F4 test.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-16-2017, 11:31 PM
Yeah, I agree. Tarkhans are similar to Gujjars, very much actually. Our average of ASI is between 30 and 33. Yours is a bit high on Harappa, though, I don't think it has to do with actual higher South Indian component, it's just the way in which the calculator was created. I suggest you do David's latest F4 test.

My SI is couple of points more but I score less East asian/Siberian, which other Tarkhans do. So it balances it out I believe. David's tests are usually expensive, around $20 I believe.

Xehanort
12-17-2017, 01:24 AM
My SI is couple of points more but I score less East asian/Siberian, which other Tarkhans do. So it balances it out I believe. David's tests are usually expensive, around $20 I believe.

Yes, they are, and yeah I agree with you, you are correct. David charges 20 USD for us in North America.

Heir of Gandhara
12-17-2017, 11:39 AM
MonkeyDLuffy, do all Sikh Tarkhans self-identify as Ramgarhias? If yes, are all Sikh Tarkhans related to the Misl commander or the fort he rebuilt? If no, why was this identity adopted en masse?

MonkeyDLuffy
12-17-2017, 02:27 PM
MonkeyDLuffy, do all Sikh Tarkhans self-identify as Ramgarhias? If yes, are all Sikh Tarkhans related to the Misl commander or the fort he rebuilt? If no, why was this identity adopted en masse?

Yes Sikh Tarkhans identify as Ramgarhias. But Ramgarhia title does not only covers Tarkhans. There were people of every biradari in the misl, even the founder was a jatt. That differentiates Ramgarhias and Hindu/Muslim tarkhans. That’s why Ramgarhias have lots of same lastnames as Jatts, Rajputs and Khatris.

I’d say the reason Sikh Tarkhans started using the Ramgarhia title was for their new position in newly formed Sikh society. In Hinduism they’re mid tier, in Muslims they’re seen as kaami. But because of Sikhism they flourished and were able to stand at the top with Jatts. Hence Sikh Tarkhans took the title of Ramgarhia after Maharaj Jassa Singh Thoka (Ramgarhia), since he played a big role in changing the status of community.

The Wikipedia article seems to be recently edited and seems to be very biased. So I won’t look at it for information. There is a tension between jat historians who’re trying to show all misls as jatts, and sometimes try to show other biradaris less significant.

Heir of Gandhara
12-17-2017, 11:44 PM
Yes Sikh Tarkhans identify as Ramgarhias. But Ramgarhia title does not only covers Tarkhans. There were people of every biradari in the misl, even the founder was a jatt. That differentiates Ramgarhias and Hindu/Muslim tarkhans. That’s why Ramgarhias have lots of same lastnames as Jatts, Rajputs and Khatris.

I’d say the reason Sikh Tarkhans started using the Ramgarhia title was for their new position in newly formed Sikh society. In Hinduism they’re mid tier, in Muslims they’re seen as kaami. But because of Sikhism they flourished and were able to stand at the top with Jatts. Hence Sikh Tarkhans took the title of Ramgarhia after Maharaj Jassa Singh Thoka (Ramgarhia), since he played a big role in changing the status of community.

The Wikipedia article seems to be recently edited and seems to be very biased. So I won’t look at it for information. There is a tension between jat historians who’re trying to show all misls as jatts, and sometimes try to show other biradaris less significant.

Thanks for the reply. And yes, I am aware that Punjab related topics evoke impassioned, albeit mostly inaccurate, responses from these 'Jat historians' from East Punjab and North America. It almost seems like as if a concerted effort is underway to Jattify the entire online discourse.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-18-2017, 01:20 AM
Thanks for the reply. And yes, I am aware that Punjab related topics evoke impassioned, albeit mostly inaccurate, responses from these 'Jat historians' from East Punjab and North America. It almost seems like as if a concerted effort is underway to Jattify the entire online discourse.

Yea Sikh Era was a very important part of Punjab's history, afterall Maharaja Ranjit singh united and extended Punjab to its full glory by winning Peshawar. The two strongest misls were Ramgarhia and Ahluwalia misls, both led by non jatts. But in past recent years there has been an agenda being pushed to change the history. Even Maharaja Ranjit singh's family history is not confirmed and kinda sketchy yet he is labelled a jatt. Jassa Singh Ramgarhia is stripped from his title of Maharaja in modern history while it is obvious he led the misl and gained control of present day haryana.

This tension for power is the reason which led to different gurudwaras run by different biradaris e.g. Ramgarhia gurudwara, Singh Sabha and Ravidassia gurudwara.

bmoney
12-18-2017, 02:55 AM
Yea Sikh Era was a very important part of Punjab's history, afterall Maharaja Ranjit singh united and extended Punjab to its full glory by winning Peshawar. The two strongest misls were Ramgarhia and Ahluwalia misls, both led by non jatts. But in past recent years there has been an agenda being pushed to change the history. Even Maharaja Ranjit singh's family history is not confirmed and kinda sketchy yet he is labelled a jatt. Jassa Singh Ramgarhia is stripped from his title of Maharaja in modern history while it is obvious he led the misl and gained control of present day haryana.

This tension for power is the reason which led to different gurudwaras run by different biradaris e.g. Ramgarhia gurudwara, Singh Sabha and Ravidassia gurudwara.

I've read Maharaja Ranjit Singh could have been of the Sansi/nomad caste

beemax
12-18-2017, 11:50 AM
lol at the Jatt bashing in some posts above.

beemax
12-18-2017, 12:10 PM
I've read Maharaja Ranjit Singh could have been of the Sansi/nomad caste

He was almost certainly a Jatt. Sansi are a very poor and marginalized group. It is unlikely that a Sansi or Sansi family would have been able to gather a large number of Jatt fighters (and Khatris etc) to operate under them as a Misl leader (i.e. before he was anointed as a Maharajah).

There are some descendents of Ranjit Singh from his daughters, and they state themselves to be Jatts. Also descendents of his relatives all claim to be Jatts. What they say is that his side of the family were poorer than the rest and were therefore nicknamed as "sansi" by other sides of the family. Its also possible his forefathers might have been engaged in dacoity and robbery at some point which could be another possible reason for them to be nicknamed "sansi".

Another possibility (though I would guess less likely) is that his ancesters originally really were from the Sansi group who had moved from another area and over time they might have been able to merge into Jatts after improving their situation, and with their Sansi past ignored by everyone over the course of time.

The bottom line is his descendents and relatives today, and in the past, stated they were Jatts, so I dont see how it can be argued against without concrete evidence they were Sansi. Personally I think it is just more Jatt bashing by some historians from certain groups, and then it gets propogated on the internet.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-18-2017, 02:59 PM
lol at the Jatt bashing in some posts above.

Well the Jat historians are providing enough reasons for them, as noticed by couple of other users as well. If you’d like to talk about history, we can create a separate thread for it.

Heir of Gandhara
12-19-2017, 01:59 AM
lol at the Jatt bashing in some posts above.

General statements contribute nothing to this ongoing discussion. If you think the supposed 'Jatt bashing' is 'lol'-worthy, please put in some effort, start a detailed thread and I will respond. However this thread, imho, should mostly focus on Ramgarhia/Tarkhan genetic results and maybe some background information on that community.

beemax
12-19-2017, 11:30 AM
Thanks for the reply. And yes, I am aware that Punjab related topics evoke impassioned, albeit mostly inaccurate, responses from these 'Jat historians' from East Punjab and North America. It almost seems like as if a concerted effort is underway to Jattify the entire online discourse.

Did I, or any other Jatt member, bring Jatts into this thread?? MDL brought Jatts into it, and then you replied as above without any details to what you said. Who are these "Jatt historians" making a "concerted effort is underway to Jattify the entire online discourse"? You also showed your bias too, just mentioning "East Punjab" in order to omit your own side of Punjab.


General statements contribute nothing to this ongoing discussion. If you think the supposed 'Jatt bashing' is 'lol'-worthy, please put in some effort, start a detailed thread and I will respond[b]. However [B]this thread, imho, should mostly focus on Ramgarhia/Tarkhan genetic results and maybe some background information on that community.

No, its not up to me to start a detailed thread. It is up to person making the point in first place to give some evidence to support what they said.

I have limited time and just registered here to get some genetics info. Also I am not a historian, neither is MDL, but I dont know about you.
Personally I dont want to go into such subjects here and rake up nonsense stuff, but if you feel the need then go ahead. Give proof of what you say, and make a similar thread on Janjua stuff?

MonkeyDLuffy
12-19-2017, 01:20 PM
Did I, or any other Jatt member, bring Jatts into this thread?? MDL brought Jatts into it, and then you replied as above without any details to what you said. Who are these "Jatt historians" making a "concerted effort is underway to Jattify the entire online discourse"? You also showed your bias too, just mentioning "East Punjab" in order to omit your own side of Punjab.



No, its not up to me to start a detailed thread. It is up to person making the point in first place to give some evidence to support what they said.

I have limited time and just registered here to get some genetics info. Also I am not a historian, neither is MDL, but I dont know about you.
Personally I dont want to go into such subjects here and rake up nonsense stuff, but if you feel the need then go ahead. Give proof of what you say, and make a similar thread on Janjua stuff?

My OP is simply stopping people from reading some nonsense written on Wikipedia article. In talk section you can read multiple people with "Jat" surname have tried to edit it. About the history, Jatland can give a nice insight of what these jat historians think, and what's more amazing is that lots of people actually read it and believe it.

I'm not denying the contribution of any Biradari to Sikh empire, but there has been a continuous effort to magnify one community's achievements and killing the other community's achievement. I've been very active on anthrogenica for a good amount of time, and you can go through my post history if I'm biased or not. I accept what we are, and what our history is.

Again if you'd like to talk about history of Punjab, I'd love to discuss either in a separate thread or PM if you'd like.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-19-2017, 01:42 PM
On the thread:

Here is another Tarkhan showed up whom I match with on 23andme. Her gedmatch is M635716

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.22
2 S-Indian 33.16
3 Caucasian 14.22
4 NE-Euro 7.73
5 Mediterranean 2.84
6 NE-Asian 1.04
7 Siberian 0.74
8 American 0.64
9 SW-Asian 0.41


Here's another, he is Sohal, which is common among both Jats and Tarkhans, so he could be either of them. M317791

1 Baloch 37.27
2 S-Indian 32.75
3 NE-Euro 10.41
4 Caucasian 8.66
5 NE-Asian 3.31
6 SW-Asian 1.83
7 American 1.5
8 Papuan 1.44
9 Mediterranean 1.17
10 Siberian 0.95
11 SE-Asian 0.61
12 Beringian 0.11

Another match from both 23andme, she is one of my top matches and has the same name lol. Since she is my 4th top match on 23andme, I'd assume she is Tarkhan. If I'm wrong please correct me. M212759

1 Baloch 38.84
2 S-Indian 29.23
3 NE-Euro 13.54
4 Caucasian 12.15
5 Mediterranean 1.63
6 NE-Asian 1.37
7 Siberian 1.14
8 Beringian 0.89
9 American 0.83
10 Pygmy 0.31
11 Papuan 0.08



I'm just fascinated by how much variation is among the community.

Heir of Gandhara
12-19-2017, 01:52 PM
Did I, or any other Jatt member, bring Jatts into this thread?? MDL brought Jatts into it, and then you replied as above without any details to what you said. Who are these "Jatt historians" making a "concerted effort is underway to Jattify the entire online discourse"? You also showed your bias too, just mentioning "East Punjab" in order to omit your own side of Punjab.

Now that you have gotten a bit more specific, I can respond better. Let me first point out my use of quotation marks with the term you found problematic. I deliberately used quotes, in lieu of the phrase so-called, just so that the term does not sound universal; thereby limiting its application to the agenda peddlers in question.

Anyway, so who are the so-called Jat Historians I am talking about? They are people who contribute to the misinformation wikis such as the Jatland wiki. To keep my argument tighter, I am only naming one such wiki or forum for now. On the said wiki, contributors deliberately invent histories of many clans of note and start calling them Jatts. They give long, often disconnected and falsified information just to make these articles appear legitimate to amateurs. The Punjabi script they use is usually Gurmukhi and this makes me think that most of these frauds belong to Eastern Punjab; for that is where the script is more common. Some of these IPs are Canadian so I threw in North American too.

To what end are such people trying to spread fabricated and revisionist 'histories?' I know not. But the scale of such endeavors is so substantial, often spilling into mainstream domains like the Wikipedia, that a pattern emerges and it starts appearing to me as if these efforts are concerted.




No, its not up to me to start a detailed thread. It is up to the person making the point in first place to give some evidence to support what they said.

I have limited time and just registered here to get some genetics info. Also I am not a historian, neither is MDL, but I dont know about you.
Personally I don't want to go into such subjects here and rake up nonsense stuff, but if you feel the need then go ahead. Give proof of what you say, and make a similar thread on Janjua stuff?

Disclosure: I am not a Historian. But because I am blood proud, generally inquisitive and a regular book reader, I know my tribal lore and history well; in addition to knowing some general history of course. I don't think I completely understand your last sentence, but there already is a thread on at least some of the 'Janjua stuff' that you mention. If you have any specific questions you can raise them in that thread and I will try my best to answer. I do not mind questions as long as they are specific, not loaded and sarcasm free.

Sapporo
12-19-2017, 02:40 PM
Punjabi Jatts and Punjabi Ramgarhia only have few points SI difference, during my conversation with sapporo, Punjabi jatts seems to be falling between 29-32% SI range, while Tarkhans seems to be 31-34% so far. I dont have any Jatt gedmatch kits, I'll take a look in my matches if I can find any.

About them clustering together, I'd agree, especially on 23andme. My top matches are Tarkhans/Ramgarhias exclusively with some jatts, and 2-3 Afghans. So Tarkhans do make a cluster.

Depends on the version of Harappa. On Gedmatch Jatt Sikhs mostly score between 28-31% SI. On Zack's Project official runs, they average around 28% with the range being 27-30%. I get 29% on his official run. Based on the results you've collected, on Gedmatch Tarkhans are mostly in the 31-33% range. Not sure if Zack has any Tarkhans on his official runs (besides you?).

MonkeyDLuffy
12-19-2017, 02:45 PM
Depends on the version of Harappa. On Gedmatch Jatt Sikhs mostly score between 28-31% SI. On Zack's Project official runs, they average around 28% with the range being 27-30%. I get 29% on his official run. Based on the results you've collected, on Gedmatch Tarkhans are mostly in the 31-33% range. Not sure if Zack has any Tarkhans on his official runs (besides you?).

He had only two Ramgarhias in his run with high Baloch, I was not part of it. I got tested way after that.

Sapporo
12-19-2017, 02:50 PM
He had only two Ramgarhias in his run with high Baloch, I was not part of it. I got tested way after that.


Thanks for the clarification. I don't remember much about his sample base. Do you know their project ID's? I wonder if it was before his "update" to the sample base with all the new participants. Project Members prior to around HRP240 (or somewhere around there) had slightly different results to those who came after.

MonkeyDLuffy
12-19-2017, 03:18 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I don't remember much about his sample base. Do you know their project ID's? I wonder if it was before his "update" to the sample base with all the new participants. Project Members prior to around HRP240 (or somewhere around there) had slightly different results to those who came after.

I actually don't, I looked into the Harappa website, but seems like the sheets are not loading up anymore. Also Zack recently updated he has dropped Harappa project. Razib is going to pick from where he left.

Here's a list Razib posted. I'm not sure how he came to average of 35% for Ramgarhias, might be because of only two individual results.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved/#.Wjkqy1WnGCg

MonkeyDLuffy
01-03-2018, 04:38 PM
Mixed Punjabi Ramgarhia (Khatri mixed I believe, since on 23&me she mentions arora as one of the surnames) M111406

1 Baloch 37.14
2 S-Indian 29.73
3 Caucasian 14.97
4 NE-Euro 10.32
5 NE-Asian 2.02
6 Mediterranean 1.79
7 American 1.2
8 SW-Asian 1.08
9 Beringian 0.98
10 Siberian 0.78

EDIT: The other sample has too many muslim matches, it is someone else's sample.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 03:49 AM
Punjabi Ramgarhia (Bachhu)

Kit: A265215

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 35.99
2 S-Indian 35.56
3 Caucasian 11.96
4 NE-Euro 10.59
5 Siberian 2.02
6 Mediterranean 1.15
7 American 1.1
8 NE-Asian 0.8
9 Beringian 0.64
10 Papuan 0.19

__________________________________

Punjabi Ramgarhia (Ghatore) M455455

1 Baloch 35.19
2 S-Indian 32.93
3 Caucasian 13.82
4 NE-Euro 9.78
5 Siberian 2.67
6 American 1.58
7 Beringian 1.2
8 SW-Asian 1.14
9 Papuan 0.94
10 Mediterranean 0.62
11 NE-Asian 0.13
12 W-African 0.01

_________________________________

Punjabi Ramgarhia (Virdee)

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.29
2 S-Indian 34.14
3 Caucasian 11.12
4 NE-Euro 10.68
5 NE-Asian 1.33
6 Mediterranean 1.32
7 SW-Asian 1.2
8 Siberian 0.99
9 Beringian 0.69
10 Papuan 0.5
11 American 0.38
12 San 0.35

______________________________

Punjabi Ramgarhia (Nagra) A342154

1 Baloch 37.55
2 S-Indian 31.4
3 NE-Euro 14.66
4 Caucasian 11.64
5 Beringian 1.77
6 Siberian 1.66
7 NE-Asian 0.68
8 SW-Asian 0.64

___________________________________

Punjabi Ramgarhia (Sondh) M366475

1 Baloch 37.94
2 S-Indian 34.13
3 Caucasian 12.52
4 NE-Euro 8.85
5 Mediterranean 2.13
6 American 1.48
7 NE-Asian 1.45
8 SW-Asian 0.95
9 Siberian 0.55

__________________________________

Punjabi Ramgarhia (Unknown) M250741

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.4
2 S-Indian 35.09
3 NE-Euro 11.87
4 Caucasian 10.37
5 Mediterranean 1.72
6 Siberian 1.53
7 Beringian 1.4
8 Papuan 0.58
9 American 0.57
10 SW-Asian 0.22
11 Pygmy 0.14
12 NE-Asian 0.12

__________________________________

Punjabi Ramgarhia (Rooprai) mixed with Baniya (agarwal): A531477

1 S-Indian 40.03
2 Baloch 39.13
3 Caucasian 7.01
4 NE-Euro 5.55
5 SW-Asian 1.84
6 Siberian 1.84
7 Mediterranean 1.3
8 American 1.24
9 SE-Asian 1
10 Papuan 0.7
11 Beringian 0.33
12 NE-Asian 0.02

_________________________________

Sapporo
02-01-2018, 05:32 AM
Punjabi Ramgarhia (Nagra) A342154

1 Baloch 37.55
2 S-Indian 31.4
3 NE-Euro 14.66
4 Caucasian 11.64
5 Beringian 1.77
6 Siberian 1.66
7 NE-Asian 0.68
8 SW-Asian 0.64


Nagra is Jatt too. Did you confirm their other surnames to verify they're full Ramgarhia? Different biradaris rarely marry with one another but it happens from time to time. One of the members on here has a 1/2 Jatt 1/2 Khatri wife. First, I've come across personally though.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 05:36 AM
Nagra is Jatt too. Did you confirm their other surnames of if they're full Ramgarhia?

I’m sending them an email to confirm. All their top matches are Ramgarhias. Let’s see what they reply.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-14-2019, 10:29 AM
Riyat:


Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.92
2 S-Indian 33.73
3 Caucasian 11.94
4 NE-Euro 10.47
5 Beringian 2.44
6 American 1.36
7 NE-Asian 0.79
8 Siberian 0.72
9 Papuan 0.63

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 2.81
2 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 3.01
3 punjabi (harappa) 3.58
4 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 4.35
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.54
6 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 5.31
7 kashmiri (harappa) 5.37
8 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.53
9 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 5.74
10 up-muslim (harappa) 5.79
11 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.79
12 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.17
13 nepalese-a (xing) 7.45
14 up-brahmin (harappa) 7.88
15 punjabi-arain (xing) 7.94
16 sindhi (harappa) 8.2
17 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.13
18 sindhi (hgdp) 10.51
19 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 10.52
20 pathan (hgdp) 11.08



Mudhan/Riyat (This one scores very much like me, probably more steppe)


# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.31
2 S-Indian 33.09
3 NE-Euro 12.91
4 Caucasian 10
5 Mediterranean 2.2
6 SW-Asian 1.46
7 American 1.45
8 Siberian 1.22
9 Beringian 1.07
10 SE-Asian 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 4.59
2 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.3
3 punjabi (harappa) 5.36
4 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 5.37
5 up-muslim (harappa) 5.59
6 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.88
7 nepalese-a (xing) 6.08
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 6.3
9 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 6.49
10 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 6.57
11 kashmiri (harappa) 6.88
12 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.92
13 up-brahmin (harappa) 7.29
14 haryana-jatt (harappa) 7.61
15 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 8.61
16 punjabi-arain (xing) 9.21
17 sindhi (harappa) 9.26
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 9.66
19 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 10.5
20 pathan (hgdp) 11.57



Sian:


Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.29
2 S-Indian 34.56
3 Caucasian 12.5
4 NE-Euro 9.38
5 Mediterranean 1.56
6 Siberian 1.41
7 American 0.61
8 Beringian 0.56
9 San 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 2.63
2 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 2.81
3 punjabi (harappa) 3.67
4 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.77
5 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 4.14
6 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 4.33
7 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.39
8 kashmiri (harappa) 5.93
9 up-muslim (harappa) 6.23
10 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 6.36
11 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.74
12 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 6.93
13 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 7.29
14 up-brahmin (harappa) 8.04
15 nepalese-a (xing) 8.18
16 sindhi (harappa) 8.33
17 sindhi (hgdp) 9.5
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 10.46
19 bhatia (harappa) 11.12
20 pathan (hgdp) 11.26


Pm me for kit numbers.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-14-2019, 10:53 AM
Sembhi:


Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.76
2 S-Indian 34.02
3 Caucasian 10.75
4 NE-Euro 9.32
5 Mediterranean 2.98
6 Siberian 2.56
7 American 0.64
8 NE-Asian 0.59
9 W-African 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 3.53
2 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.55
3 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 3.67
4 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.78
5 punjabi (harappa) 3.97
6 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 4.16
7 up-muslim (harappa) 5.68
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.89
9 kashmiri (harappa) 6.32
10 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.72
11 nepalese-a (xing) 6.88
12 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.9
13 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.25
14 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 7.29
15 up-brahmin (harappa) 7.64
16 sindhi (harappa) 8.79
17 sindhi (hgdp) 9.51
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 9.98
19 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.67
20 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 10.8


Another Riyat (most likely related to the first riyat)


Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.88
2 S-Indian 33.45
3 Caucasian 11.84
4 NE-Euro 11.71
5 NE-Asian 2.31
6 Siberian 1.39
7 American 1.05
8 Beringian 0.37

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.44
2 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 3.57
3 punjabi (harappa) 4.38
4 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 4.46
5 kashmiri (harappa) 5.21
6 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 5.56
7 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.91
8 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 5.94
9 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.94
10 nepalese-a (xing) 6.2
11 up-muslim (harappa) 6.3
12 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.63
13 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 8.08
14 sindhi (harappa) 8.14
15 up-brahmin (harappa) 8.21
16 punjabi-arain (xing) 8.33
17 haryana-jatt (harappa) 9.47
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 10.59
19 pathan (hgdp) 10.76
20 bhatia (harappa) 10.9

laltota
02-14-2019, 11:22 AM
I’m sending them an email to confirm. All their top matches are Ramgarhias. Let’s see what they reply.

Did they (Nagra) reply to your email by any chance?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-14-2019, 11:28 AM
Did they (Nagra) reply to your email by any chance?

Nope, but she's jatt, Sapporo confirmed it. It was a mistake of surname, Tarkhans have surname *Nagi, Nagri*, so I confused it for Nagra.

Jatt1
02-14-2019, 08:33 PM
Nope, but she's jatt, Sapporo confirmed it. It was a mistake of surname, Tarkhans have surname *Nagi, Nagri*, so I confused it for Nagra.

Do you have a list of Ramgariya yDNA and mtDNA haplogroups?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-14-2019, 11:26 PM
Do you have a list of Ramgariya yDNA and mtDNA haplogroups?

I do, and it's bigger than when I originally started this thread. I'll add those to online sheet, and can PM you.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-15-2019, 10:35 AM
Distant maternal relative, Sembhi:

1 Baloch 35.75
2 S-Indian 32.36
3 Caucasian 14.63
4 NE-Euro 10.95
5 American 1.88
6 Mediterranean 1.4
7 E-African 1.01
8 Siberian 0.98
9 NE-Asian 0.74
10 San 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri (harappa) 4.23
2 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 4.71
3 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.13
4 punjabi (harappa) 5.98
5 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 6.02
6 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 6.13
7 up-muslim (harappa) 6.27
8 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 7.1
9 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.24
10 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 7.52
11 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 7.84
12 sindhi (harappa) 8.25
13 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 8.37
14 nepalese-a (xing) 9.39
15 punjabi-arain (xing) 9.8
16 haryana-jatt (harappa) 9.8
17 pathan (hgdp) 10.29
18 up-brahmin (harappa) 10.53
19 bhatia (harappa) 11.77
20 burusho (hgdp) 12.12

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.7% gujarati (harappa) + 28.3% urkarah (xing) @ 2.15
2 73.8% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 26.2% urkarah (xing) @ 2.15
3 73.3% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 26.7% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.2
4 74.4% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 25.6% lezgin (behar) @ 2.29
5 73.7% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 26.3% lezgin (behar) @ 2.35
6 72.4% gujarati (harappa) + 27.6% lezgin (behar) @ 2.56
7 76% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 24% chechen (yunusbayev) @ 2.58
8 73.1% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 26.9% urkarah (xing) @ 2.62
9 72.7% meghawal (reich) + 27.3% urkarah (xing) @ 2.72
10 71.3% gujarati (harappa) + 28.7% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.76
11 85.2% pathan (hgdp) + 14.8% irula (xing) @ 2.87
12 70.5% iyer-brahmin (harappa) + 29.5% urkarah (xing) @ 2.91
13 85.3% pathan (hgdp) + 14.7% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 2.93
14 75.1% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 24.9% kumyk (yunusbayev) @ 2.93
15 69% kerala-nair (harappa) + 31% urkarah (xing) @ 2.94
16 88.6% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 11.4% romanian-b (behar) @ 2.97
17 71.4% tn-brahmin (xing) + 28.6% urkarah (xing) @ 3
18 93.2% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 6.8% irula (xing) @ 3.02
19 93.3% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 6.7% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 3.02
20 61.7% gujarati-a (hapmap) + 38.3% urkarah (xing) @ 3.07

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-25-2019, 11:42 PM
The Ramgarhia Misl was founded by Jassa Singh.
Source:
RAJ KHALSA PART -I: Rise of Sikh Missals and Khalsa Kingdom Established by MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH
Giani Gian Singh ji
What's the source of your information?

aaronbee2010
10-25-2019, 11:46 PM
Do you have a list of Ramgariya yDNA and mtDNA haplogroups?

Here is a pie-chart of Ramgarhia Y-DNA I have collected:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17HRNLRAfjTz4RAl3A3dcOFgnArnaz5waiipTiW3PSPA/edit#gid=0

I can compile a list of Ramgarhia mtDNA if you like.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-25-2019, 11:57 PM
He is Tarkhan hater.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-26-2019, 12:00 AM
He is Tarkhan hater.

Who's what?

aaronbee2010
10-26-2019, 12:02 AM
The Ramgarhia Misl was founded by Jassa Singh.
Source:
RAJ KHALSA PART -I: Rise of Sikh Missals and Khalsa Kingdom Established by MAHARAJA RANJIT SINGH
Giani Gian Singh ji
What's the source of your information?

MonkeyDLuffy is busy trying to find his lotion so he can intimately appreciate this quality content.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-26-2019, 12:04 AM
No, not all Tarkhans identify with Ramgarhia. Many Tarkhans in Malwa belt identify with Tarkhan such as my family.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-26-2019, 12:04 AM
What?

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-26-2019, 12:15 AM
Razib

MonkeyDLuffy
10-26-2019, 12:18 AM
Razib

Why does he hate Tarkhans? I'm curious.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-26-2019, 12:45 AM
34175
34176

Proof that M. Jassa Singh was the founder of Ramgarhia Misl.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-26-2019, 12:50 AM
34175
34176

Proof that M. Jassa Singh was the founder of Ramgarhia Misl.

Thanks, I was not aware of that. But can you please explain why Razib Khan hates Tarkhans?

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-26-2019, 01:08 AM
Putting Tarkhan ASI at 35 and taking only 2 samples.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-26-2019, 01:40 AM
Putting Tarkhan ASI at 35 and taking only 2 samples.

35 is on higher side but there are a lot of samples who score 35 SI on harappa. Even I'm 34. We have a range from 31-35, and average is 33.

agent_lime
10-26-2019, 02:47 AM
Putting Tarkhan ASI at 35 and taking only 2 samples.

Tarkhans might be under sampled but I'm sure he doesn't care how much ASI y'all are. That's still less ASI than 90% of Indians.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-26-2019, 02:52 AM
Tarkhans might be under sampled but I'm sure he doesn't care how much ASI y'all are. That's still less ASI than 90% of Indians.

There are no academic samples at all, all we've is data of 3 Tarkhans including mine, and rest are samples from gedmatch. If I count all of them, we've about 40+ kits now. So 33SI average seems realistic. We fall within Punjabi biradari levels which is what we are.

agent_lime
10-26-2019, 03:06 AM
There are no academic samples at all, all we've is data of 3 Tarkhans including mine, and rest are samples from gedmatch. If I count all of them, we've about 40+ kits now. So 33SI average seems realistic. We fall within Punjabi biradari levels which is what we are.

Yup, even Punjabi Brahmins are around 31-34%, Arians around 30%, Kashmiris around 32%. Only Jats, Khatris and Kamboj are lower and they are all North Indus populations.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-30-2019, 01:06 PM
Thank you, Dollar Guy.
Please, can you change name from Ramgarhia to Tarkhan or Tarkhan/Ramgarhia.
Also in one of pie charts Q is missing.

laltota
10-30-2019, 01:20 PM
Here is a pie-chart of Ramgarhia Y-DNA I have collected:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17HRNLRAfjTz4RAl3A3dcOFgnArnaz5waiipTiW3PSPA/edit#gid=0

I can compile a list of Ramgarhia mtDNA if you like.


Thank you, Dollar Guy.
Please, can you change name from Ramgarhia to Tarkhan or Tarkhan/Ramgarhia.
Also in one of pie charts Q is missing.

The Six Million Dollar Man. :)

It is better to make a Reply with Quote to the User you are replying to. Then it will be notified to that User in Notifications top line of screen, right side.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-30-2019, 01:24 PM
The Six Million Dollar Man. :)

It is better to make a Reply with Quote to the User you are replying to. Then it will be notified to that User in Notifications top line of screen, right side.

ਧੰਨਵਾਦ
Thank you, Sir.
I'll do it.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-30-2019, 01:25 PM
Here is a pie-chart of Ramgarhia Y-DNA I have collected:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17HRNLRAfjTz4RAl3A3dcOFgnArnaz5waiipTiW3PSPA/edit#gid=0

I can compile a list of Ramgarhia mtDNA if you like.

Thank you.
Please, can you change the name of file from Ramgarhia to Tarkhan or Tarkhan Ramgarhia?
Also, in one of pie charts Q is not labeled.
Thank you

aaronbee2010
10-30-2019, 03:38 PM
Thank you.
Please, can you change the name of file from Ramgarhia to Tarkhan or Tarkhan Ramgarhia?

I changed the title to "Ramgarhia/Tarkhan Y-DNA". You should see it now.


Also, in one of pie charts Q is not labeled.
Thank you

It's a glitch with Google Sheets, I can't really do much about it (I've tried).

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-30-2019, 07:12 PM
Apparently, Tarkhans have surname overlap with Gujjars.
Tarkhan exclusive surnames such as Virdee, Bhamrah.
They've Jabali, Kalas Tarkhans have Jabal, Kalsi.

https://m.facebook.com/GujjarKingdom/photos/a.442841792430259/698749126839523/?type=3

MonkeyDLuffy
10-30-2019, 07:56 PM
Apparently, Tarkhans have surname overlap with Gujjars.
Tarkhan exclusive surnames such as Virdee, Bhamrah.
They've Jabali, Kalas Tarkhans have Jabal, Kalsi.

https://m.facebook.com/GujjarKingdom/photos/a.442841792430259/698749126839523/?type=3

We've overlap with every Punjabi biradari.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-31-2019, 12:50 PM
We've overlap with every Punjabi biradari.

Sure. But these surnames have been thought as Tarkhan exclusive.

Tarkhan Tarkan
10-31-2019, 12:51 PM
34290

Maharaja Jassa Singh Bamrah of Ramgarhia Misl
Tarkhan Sikh

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-02-2019, 03:55 PM
Here is a pie-chart of Ramgarhia Y-DNA I have collected:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17HRNLRAfjTz4RAl3A3dcOFgnArnaz5waiipTiW3PSPA/edit#gid=0

I can compile a list of Ramgarhia mtDNA if you like.

Thank you 🙏

MonkeyDLuffy
11-06-2019, 05:19 AM
Sure. But these surnames have been thought as Tarkhan exclusive.

You'll find these surnames on Jatland too. Doesn't mean much. Especially when it's on a random Facebook page.

agent_lime
11-06-2019, 06:37 AM
You'll find these surnames on Jatland too. Doesn't mean much. Especially when it's on a random Facebook page.

Jatland is run by crazy people.

https://www.jatland.com/home/Khatri


Ram Swarup Joon[5] writes that Khaitri (Lahor) or The Khattris are in abundance in the Punjab and Haryana. Although they do not call themselves so, they are Jats. They consider themselves to be the descendants of king Kailash of Kashmir who is mentioned in Rajatrangini. After the fall of the Kashmir kingdom they came and settled down in Lahore for some time.

They have a few villages, Sonepat, Kulashi, Ismaila etc,. in district Rohtak. One of their branches is called Lohna, who settled down in Sindh. During the conflict. Of the Jats with King Chach, these people took the side of Chach. They are mentioned in Chachnama. They also supported his son Dahir in his conflict with Mohamad Bin Quasim.

According to Bhim Singh Dahiya, they are an ancient tribe mentioned by the Greeks as "Xathroi", corresponding to Sanskrit Kśatri. Kautilya says that they had a a "Vratashāstropjivin" type old sangha or government. K P Jayaswal identifies them with the present Sindhi Khatris. Why not, also, with the Punjabi Khatris and Khatri Jats? It should be remembered that "Kśātra" was the first king of the Persians and the ancient "Hittites" of Turkey, were in fact known to the Egyptians as "Khattis", i.e. 'Khatris'. [6]

Megasthenes has described then as The hill-tribes between the Indus and the Iomanes as Cetriboni (Khatri), along with the Cesi (Khasa), the Megallae (Mukul), the Chrysei (Karesia), the Parasangae (Paraswal), and the Asange (Sangwa) (See Jat clans as described by Megasthenes).

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-06-2019, 02:00 PM
Jatland is run by crazy people.

https://www.jatland.com/home/Khatri

I thought, this thread was for Tarkhan discussion. However, people can't handle it.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-06-2019, 02:12 PM
I thought, this thread was for Tarkhan discussion. However, people can't handle it.

Get used to it, people are free to go a bit off topic on forums. You brought Gujjars into the topic, so be prepared to accept other comparisons too.

And what's not here to handle? We're not special beings, it's an open discussion forum. I'd advise you to be more flexible when it comes to topics.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-06-2019, 02:24 PM
Get used to it, people are free to go a bit off topic on forums. You brought Gujjars into the topic, so be prepared to accept other comparisons too.

And what's not here to handle? We're not special beings, it's an open discussion forum. I'd advise you to be more flexible when it comes to topics.

I brought Gujjars in relation to Tarkhans, not some some random post about bashing someone.

agent_lime
11-06-2019, 02:26 PM
I thought, this thread was for Tarkhan discussion. However, people can't handle it.

Huh? Can't handle? Something special about Tarkhans?

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-06-2019, 02:33 PM
Huh? Can't handle? Something special about Tarkhans?

What's so special about you bashing someone and posting it in totally irrelevant thread?

MonkeyDLuffy
11-06-2019, 02:43 PM
What's so special about you bashing someone and posting it in totally irrelevant thread?

Because it's totally normal to call out something ridiculous. Just like people who like to make random connections and claims. It happens on public forums.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-06-2019, 02:44 PM
Because it's totally normal to call out something ridiculous. Just like people who like to make random connections and claims. It happens on public forums.

Is it really ridiculous, if they believe it?

MonkeyDLuffy
11-06-2019, 02:52 PM
Is it really ridiculous, if they believe it?

Yes, ridiculous and hilarious. Fabricating fake history of your community is laughable at best. Jatland is a laughing stock because of that.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-06-2019, 02:54 PM
Yes, ridiculous and hilarious. Fabricating fake history of your community is laughable at best. Jatland is a laughing stock because of that.

Doesn't matter. Their people believe it. It's their truth.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-06-2019, 03:39 PM
Doesn't matter. Their people believe it. It's their truth.

Sure, but if you openly advertise your fake history, expect to be bashed. It's just like someone thinking they're god, as long as they keep it to themselves, they won't turn into a laughingstock.

Hopefully Tarkhans won't turn into a laughing stock just like that.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-06-2019, 03:58 PM
Here's a list of Tarkhan villages, that I know of, please feel free to correct me or add more villages:

Bhai Rupa
Thathi
Sireyeawala
Sikhwala
Tarkhan Mazra (Amloh)

To be continued..

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-06-2019, 03:59 PM
Although, there are many villages in Punjab named Tarkhan, not all are actually Tarkhan Villages. For example: Tarkhanwala (Muktsar) is not a Tarkhan village.
However, Tarkhan Mazra (Amloh) is a Tarkhan village.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-06-2019, 09:30 PM
Here's a list of Tarkhan villages, that I know of, please feel free to correct me or add more villages:

Bhai Rupa
Thathi
Sireyeawala
Sikhwala
Tarkhan Mazra (Amloh)

To be continued..

Update 1

Kotha (Fazilka)
Kabul Shah
Nehiawala
Dyalpura Bhai Ka
Bagrian

MonkeyDLuffy
11-06-2019, 11:58 PM
Update 1

Kotha (Fazilka)
Kabul Shah
Nehiawala
Dyalpura Bhai Ka
Bagrian

Villages in the sense they control and owe?

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-07-2019, 12:21 AM
Villages in the sense they control and owe?

Tarkhan Majority

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-07-2019, 02:26 AM
Villages in the sense they control and owe?

Also, Bagrian was Kingdom. More like a mini kingdom during era of Ryast's in Malwa region of Punjab while other parts weres slave to British.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-07-2019, 02:34 AM
34421

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2019, 02:51 AM
Also, Bagrian was Kingdom. More like a mini kingdom during era of Ryast's in Malwa region of Punjab while other parts weres slave to British.

Technically all princely Riyasats were slave of British. British let them have their royalty in exchange for them pledging their submission to queen.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-07-2019, 02:59 AM
Technically all princely Riyasats were slave of British. British let them have their royalty in exchange for them pledging their submission to queen.

Yet crowds of people from Malwa were not serving British in any way. Unlike other regions where people were flocking to serve the British

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2019, 05:07 AM
Yet crowds of people from Malwa were not serving British in any way. Unlike other regions where people were flocking to serve the British

Can you provide sources for that? Because the biggest riyasat of Malwa, Patiala, was setup by Abdali for sold out Sidhu King, and then they sold oit to British to keep their kingdom.

British did build Canal system throughout Malwa region, so certainly the local riyasats were with them in their rule.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-07-2019, 10:47 AM
Can you provide sources for that? Because the biggest riyasat of Malwa, Patiala, was setup by Abdali for sold out Sidhu King, and then they sold oit to British to keep their kingdom.

British did build Canal system throughout Malwa region, so certainly the local riyasats were with them in their rule.

I said British. Not Abdali.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-07-2019, 12:29 PM
Estimating Tarkhan Population:
34424

According to 2011 Census of India, In Punjab, Tarkhans along with Sunar, Kamboj, Labana, Kumhar/Prajapati, Arain, Gurjar, Teli, Banjara, Lohar and Bhat make 31.3% of total population of Punjab.

Total population of Punjab is 27.98 million.

Let's suppose that these groups are evenly distributed: Tarkhan would make 2.84% of total population of Punjab.

That puts the Tarkhan population to be about 794,632~ 800,000 or 0.8 Million.

However, since these groups are not evenly distributed for example Kamboj and Gujjar population is less than Tarkhan population in Punjab.

I'd estimate Tarkhan population to be around in 1 million or 1,000,000.

What do you people think?

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2019, 01:05 PM
I said British. Not Abdali.

I'm asking for British time sources. You said they operated freely without any relation with British, so that means they had power and means to fight off the British. Can you provide the source that shows them operating completely free while other regions were cowards and running for participation in army? I couldn't find any.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-07-2019, 02:55 PM
I'm asking for British time sources. You said they operated freely without any relation with British, so that means they had power and means to fight off the British. Can you provide the source that shows them operating completely free while other regions were cowards and running for participation in army? I couldn't find any.

Moreover, how many people from Malwa were in service for British?

Can you comment on Tarkhan population analysis?

Or you want to discuss Non-Tarkhans?

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-07-2019, 05:12 PM
Estimating Tarkhan Population:
34424

According to 2011 Census of India, In Punjab, Tarkhans along with Sunar, Kamboj, Labana, Kumhar/Prajapati, Arain, Gurjar, Teli, Banjara, Lohar and Bhat make 31.3% of total population of Punjab.

Total population of Punjab is 27.98 million.

Let's suppose that these groups are evenly distributed: Tarkhan would make 2.84% of total population of Punjab.

That puts the Tarkhan population to be about 794,632~ 800,000 or 0.8 Million.

However, since these groups are not evenly distributed for example Kamboj and Gujjar population is less than Tarkhan population in Punjab.

I'd estimate Tarkhan population to be around in 1 million or 1,000,000.

What do you people think?


(As of June 2018, the caste population data for each caste in Punjab collected in Socio Economic and Caste Census 2011)

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-08-2019, 07:09 PM
From time to time, efforts are made by majority to expunge Tarkhans from the Sikh history. For example: Baba Sukha Singh Kalsi Ji is being quoted as being Non-Tarkhan.34458

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-11-2019, 03:25 PM
In the 1881 census there were 263,479 Tarkhan Sikhs.

(PERSPECTIVES ON THE SIKH TRADITION
Edited by
GURDEV SINCH
Foreword by
KHUSHWANT SINGH)

MonkeyDLuffy
11-11-2019, 03:35 PM
In the 1881 census there were 263,479 Tarkhan Sikhs.

(PERSPECTIVES ON THE SIKH TRADITION
Edited by
GURDEV SINCH
Foreword by
KHUSHWANT SINGH)

That's a very low number, no wonder we're all genetically related lol.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-11-2019, 04:35 PM
That's a very low number, no wonder we're all genetically related lol.

Considering, these numbers Tarkhans are 4th number, when it comes to Sikh population.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-13-2019, 12:37 AM
I changed the title to "Ramgarhia/Tarkhan Y-DNA". You should see it now.



It's a glitch with Google Sheets, I can't really do much about it (I've tried).

Thank you, sir.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-15-2019, 07:14 PM
List of Tarkhan villages:
Bhai Rupa
Thathi
Sireyeawala
Sikhwala
Tarkhan Mazra (Amloh)
Kotha Rajasthan
Kabul Shah Kuban
Nehiawala
Dyalpura Bhai Ka
Tarkhan Mazra (Jalandhar)
Tolawala
Samadh Bhai Ki
Rawaleri
Lakhnor
Tarkhan Mazra (Sirhind)
Bagrian
Vakilanwala (Ferozepur)

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-15-2019, 11:07 PM
34651

#DHARKHAN, a synonym of #Tarkhán (q.v.) throughout the South-West Punjab.
In Jhang they are all Muhammadans and have Awán, Bharmi, Bhatti, Dhadhi, Gilotar, Jaujúbán, Kari, Khokhar, Saharar, Sáhte and Siál septs. The latter when the first tonsure of a child is performed, cook 2½ bhasarís or cakes, each containing 1¼ sers of wheat-flour, and of these the eldest of the family eats one, the second is given in alms and the third ½ is eaten by the girls of the family.
(A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose)

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-15-2019, 11:28 PM
34652
It seems like many Tarkhans also joined the Bishnoi sect, who in modern times are generally considered a distinct group.
(Panjab castes by Sir Denzil Ibbetson)

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-17-2019, 03:30 AM
Is anyone one of you guys from Malwa Region of Punjab?

client
11-18-2019, 03:58 AM
Tektōn (τέκτων) in Greek mean artisan(particularly carpenter) maybe Tarkhan caste have origin there.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-18-2019, 03:57 PM
Tektōn (τέκτων) in Greek mean artisan(particularly carpenter) maybe Tarkhan caste have origin there.

Maybe.
However, Tarkhans never had fixed occupation. Tarkhans were involved in all kinds of work such as Carpentry, Bricklaying, Metal Works and Farming. In a Hindu Varna/Caste system these things are done by different groups. Also, we're a small minority among Punjabis, usually clustered together with Sikhs or lower castes or higher castes.

parasar
11-18-2019, 05:10 PM
Maybe.
However, Tarkhans never had fixed occupation. Tarkhans were involved in all kinds of work such as Carpentry, Bricklaying, Metal Works and Farming. In a Hindu Varna/Caste system these things are done by different groups. Also, we're a small minority among Punjabis, usually clustered together with Sikhs or lower castes or higher castes.

Yes no doubt Tarqans were an artisan class. But the specific artisan occupation that gave them immense prestige was metal working. At one time they were at the near top of the food-chain due their tax exempt designation.

"(historical) An ancient Central Asian title used by various Turkic (i.e. Hunnic, Xiongnu, Khazar), Mongolic and Indo-European peoples (i.e. Scythian and Tokharian), especially in the medieval era, and prominent among the successors of the Mongol Empire.
(historical) An emblem during the Mongol Empire denoting a man freed of all kind of civil services.
(historical) A Turkic term denoting a 'blacksmith' and later a 'tax-exempt man'.
(historical) A privileged estate or class; hereditary nobility in the Kazanian society."
https://www.yourdictionary.com/tarkhan

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-18-2019, 07:39 PM
Yes no doubt Tarqans were an artisan class. But the specific artisan occupation that gave them immense prestige was metal working. At one time they were at the near top of the food-chain due their tax exempt designation.

"(historical) An ancient Central Asian title used by various Turkic (i.e. Hunnic, Xiongnu, Khazar), Mongolic and Indo-European peoples (i.e. Scythian and Tokharian), especially in the medieval era, and prominent among the successors of the Mongol Empire.
(historical) An emblem during the Mongol Empire denoting a man freed of all kind of civil services.
(historical) A Turkic term denoting a 'blacksmith' and later a 'tax-exempt man'.
(historical) A privileged estate or class; hereditary nobility in the Kazanian society."
https://www.yourdictionary.com/tarkhan

Yes.
However, historian tend to Tarkhans to a occupation of carpentary. When in reality Tarkhans have been doing all kinds of occupation.
Also, there was Tarkhan dynasty in Gilgit.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-18-2019, 07:41 PM
34729

Tarkhan dyansty of GILGIT

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-18-2019, 07:42 PM
34730

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-18-2019, 07:43 PM
Even genetically Tarkhans form a cluster.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-18-2019, 07:46 PM
Also, anyone please tell me how to delete a post?
Thank you

laltota
11-18-2019, 08:28 PM
Also, anyone please tell me how to delete a post?
Thank you

For some time you can use Edit Post function seen at bottom of post, and remove anything in the post or everything in the post. After a time period you cant edit the post. You would have to send a msg to the moderator to edit the post or delete it.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-18-2019, 09:44 PM
For some time you can use Edit Post function seen at bottom of post, and remove anything in the post or everything in the post. After a time period you cant edit the post. You would have to send a msg to the moderator to edit the post or delete it.


Thank you

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-23-2019, 12:25 AM
Interesting article about Barhais 34842from Glossary of Tribes of Punjab by HA Rose

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-23-2019, 08:04 PM
According to Atinderpal Singh Khalistani (Member of Parliament), total Tarkhan population is 1,091,000 (or 1.09 million).

Tarkhans are about a 0.073% of total Indian population and 4.04% of total Sikh Population.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2002478909796240&id=100001024502237

http://www.oxfordsikhs.com/SikhAwareness/Sikh-Population-Around-The-World_159.aspx

laltota
11-23-2019, 08:16 PM
According to Atinderpal Singh Khalistani (Member of Parliament), total Tarkhan population is 1,091,000 (or 1.09 million).

Tarkhans are about a 0.073% of total Indian population and 4.04% of total Sikh Population.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2002478909796240&id=100001024502237

http://www.oxfordsikhs.com/SikhAwareness/Sikh-Population-Around-The-World_159.aspx

Sikh population figures for Canada are totally wrong, and no mention of USA, Australia, Italy etc.

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-23-2019, 08:18 PM
Sikh population figures for Canada are totally wrong, and no mention of USA, Australia, Italy etc.

I've taken total sikh population to be 27 million.

What do you think it is? 28 million?

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-23-2019, 08:58 PM
34651

#DHARKHAN, a synonym of #Tarkhán (q.v.) throughout the South-West Punjab.
In Jhang they are all Muhammadans and have Awán, Bharmi, Bhatti, Dhadhi, Gilotar, Jaujúbán, Kari, Khokhar, Saharar, Sáhte and Siál septs. The latter when the first tonsure of a child is performed, cook 2½ bhasarís or cakes, each containing 1¼ sers of wheat-flour, and of these the eldest of the family eats one, the second is given in alms and the third ½ is eaten by the girls of the family.
(A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province by Horace Arthur Rose)

Muslim scholar Dr Tahir Ul-Qadri is from Jhang

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-23-2019, 10:48 PM
34853
A Pakistan Government document showing land holdings of some Tarkhans

Tarkhan Tarkan
11-23-2019, 10:49 PM
34855

MonkeyDLuffy
08-31-2020, 03:09 PM
Found some information about Tarkhans in Himachal, as I suspected they're outsiders, hence fell down to Dalit status in Himachal. That'd also explain their fall in heirchy to Dalits in other northern states despite not being one genetically:

39287

39288

discreetmaverick
09-01-2020, 01:49 AM
Found some information about Tarkhans in Himachal, as I suspected they're outsiders, hence fell down to Dalit status in Himachal. That'd also explain their fall in heirchy to Dalits in other northern states despite not being one genetically:

39287

39288

Tarkhans in HP are listed in OBC, not SC. Not sure, I do not understand what the article is actually referring to, is their plea by the community for SC Status or the state government working to get them SC status.

http://himachalservices.nic.in/hbcfdc/list.htm

http://himachalservices.nic.in/hpscstdc/CastesEng(sc).htm

MonkeyDLuffy
09-01-2020, 02:10 AM
Tarkhans in HP are listed in OBC, not SC. Not sure, I do not understand what the article is actually referring to, is their plea by the community for SC Status or the state government working to get them SC status.

http://himachalservices.nic.in/hbcfdc/list.htm

http://himachalservices.nic.in/hpscstdc/CastesEng(sc).htm

Some Tarkhans also do Iron work, hence sometimes are referred as "Tarkhan Lohara". Lohars are under SC, while Tarkhans under OBC, so it is weird gray area. There is no request from Tarkhans to be included into SC list, they actually use surnames like "Sharma, Bhardawaj" in Himachal. All communities in OBC list do not enjoy the equal status as each other in society. In Punjab's OBC list, Mirassi, Nai, Tarkhan, Sikh Rajput, Arain, Kamboh, Saini all come under Backward castes yet have very different social standing from each other. The article talks about Tarkhans not being native to Himachal but recent arrival to hills, hence them being treated as Dalits in society of Himachal (not allowed in upper caste people houses). It also talks about them falling at bottom of society in Greater Punjab due to being their trade occupation.

desi
01-28-2021, 11:07 AM
He was almost certainly a Jatt. Sansi are a very poor and marginalized group. It is unlikely that a Sansi or Sansi family would have been able to gather a large number of Jatt fighters (and Khatris etc) to operate under them as a Misl leader (i.e. before he was anointed as a Maharajah).

There are some descendents of Ranjit Singh from his daughters, and they state themselves to be Jatts. Also descendents of his relatives all claim to be Jatts. What they say is that his side of the family were poorer than the rest and were therefore nicknamed as "sansi" by other sides of the family. Its also possible his forefathers might have been engaged in dacoity and robbery at some point which could be another possible reason for them to be nicknamed "sansi".

Another possibility (though I would guess less likely) is that his ancesters originally really were from the Sansi group who had moved from another area and over time they might have been able to merge into Jatts after improving their situation, and with their Sansi past ignored by everyone over the course of time.

The bottom line is his descendents and relatives today, and in the past, stated they were Jatts, so I dont see how it can be argued against without concrete evidence they were Sansi. Personally I think it is just more Jatt bashing by some historians from certain groups, and then it gets propogated on the internet.


He was a Sansi as per his own descendants (Duleep Singh’s daughters). What could they gain by making such a claim if it was false? However, his wife, Maharani Jind Kaur, was indeed a Jatt.

desi
01-28-2021, 11:10 AM
Tektōn (τέκτων) in Greek mean artisan(particularly carpenter) maybe Tarkhan caste have origin there.

That seems too outlandish.

A TA at my uni, who’s a Kashmiri (Raina) Sikh actually has a very interesting theory about Ramgharias (or specifically the Tarkhans). Will share it once he’s come up with something substantial.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 04:14 PM
That seems too outlandish.

A TA at my uni, who’s a Kashmiri (Raina) Sikh actually has a very interesting theory about Ramgharias (or specifically the Tarkhans). Will share it once he’s come up with something substantial.

What's the theory? That we're bahmans?

desi
01-28-2021, 07:22 PM
What's the theory? That we're bahmans?

Yes, more or less. He's basing this off of genetics (as Ramgharias/Tarkhans score very similar to Punjabi/Kashmiri Brahmins) and historical/genealogical information. I'll make a post about it once he's actually given me something to talk about, but he has been quite confident about this.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 09:45 PM
Yes, more or less. He's basing this off of genetics (as Ramgharias/Tarkhans score very similar to Punjabi/Kashmiri Brahmins) and historical/genealogical information. I'll make a post about it once he's actually given me something to talk about, but he has been quite confident about this.

If he's going over the Genetic results, he probably saw all the results I've posted over 7 years. Hindu Tarkhans claim Brahmin lineage, but I doubt it, some can score very different from brahmins. Although I do believe the community did move from Northern Punjab somewhere before 1500s and took over the trades, replacing the local "Khati/Jhangid" community.

I highly doubt a community offshoot of Brahmins would end up at dalit status, at the bottom of society.

desi
01-28-2021, 09:58 PM
If he's going over the Genetic results, he probably saw all the results I've posted over 7 years. Hindu Tarkhans claim Brahmin lineage, but I doubt it, some can score very different from brahmins. Although I do believe the community did move from Northern Punjab somewhere before 1500s and took over the trades, replacing the local "Khati/Jhangid" community.

Yeah he frequents your posts. There's unfortunately not a lot of Tarkhan samples in comparison to other Punjabi biraderis, but that's obviously because of the relative numbers. I wasn't aware Hindu Tarkhans claim a Brahmin lineage, but apparently his reasoning is steeped in Vedic texts and historiography paired with scoring.

I'm not aware of Khati/Jhangid communities, any samples for them?

Hindu Khatris are also known to mix with other neighbouring communities like Nais, Julahas in recent times, so it may be that their results diverge as a result of that. I believe Sikh Tarkhans are more endogamous.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 10:04 PM
Yeah he frequents your posts. There's unfortunately not a lot of Tarkhan samples in comparison to other Punjabi biraderis, but that's obviously because of the relative numbers. I wasn't aware Hindu Tarkhans claim a Brahmin lineage, but apparently his reasoning is steeped in Vedic texts and historiography paired with scoring.

I'm not aware of Khati/Jhangid communities, any samples for them?

Hindu Khatris are also known to mix with other neighbouring communities like Nais, Julahas in recent times, so it may be that their results diverge as a result of that. I believe Sikh Tarkhans are more endogamous.

Yes we do not marry outside, but times are changing now, especially in urban areas and in diaspora communities. I have posted a couple Khati results over the years, I'll post them here later if I can find them. They score different.

You're right about small numbers of Tarkhans. They're highly inbred for a community. Which only means they practiced strict endogamy for generations.

And yes Hindu Tarkhans claim to be Brahmins who fell in status due to worshippers of "Vishwakarma". They also use surnames like Sharma/Bhardawaj. As I said, I highly doubt the Brahmin claims tho, a brahmin offshoot community would never be considered dalits, like tarkhans are considered.

desi
01-28-2021, 10:05 PM
I highly doubt a community offshoot of Brahmins would end up at dalit status, at the bottom of society.

Punjabi Tarkhans were never Dalit lol. They may be designated as such now in places like Pakistan (kaami) or other parts of India, but I don't think I've seen this be the case in Punjab.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 10:09 PM
Punjabi Tarkhans were never Dalit lol. They may be designated as such now in places like Pakistan (kaami) or other parts of India, but I don't think I've seen this be the case in Punjab.

That's what I used to believe too lol, but yea the Kaami thing and lower status thing I heard surprised me. Then in past some users have claimed Tarkhans were seen as low class, in punjabi society, so I started questioning what I've seen growing up lol. I mean the first tarkhan ever mentioned in Historical text, Bhai Lalo, were shown as poor, and unclean.

desi
01-28-2021, 10:26 PM
That's what I used to believe too lol, but yea the Kaami thing and lower status thing I heard surprised me. Then in past some users have claimed Tarkhans were seen as low class, in punjabi society, so I started questioning what I've seen growing up lol. I mean the first tarkhan ever mentioned in Historical text, Bhai Lalo, were shown as poor, and unclean.

Which users state they're low class? Tarkhans in modern Punjab, at least the Sikhs, have a fairly alright position. I mean they're not as wealthy as Jatts, but they're nowhere near the Dalits/chamars.

desi
01-28-2021, 10:35 PM
Me (Majhail Tarkhan, grandparents originally from KPK):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 37.15
2 S-Indian 32.72
3 Caucasian 14.17
4 NE-Euro 11.09
5 Mediterranean 2.2
6 SW-Asian 1.05
7 Beringian 0.16
8 American 0.53
9 W-African 0.31


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri (harappa) 3.28
2 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 4.17
3 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.45
4 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.81
5 punjabi (harappa) 6.01
6 up-muslim (harappa) 6.04
7 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 6.09
8 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 6.75
9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 7.1
10 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 7.5
11 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 8.01
12 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 8.5
13 sindhi (harappa) 8.58
14 punjabi-arain (xing) 9.62
15 nepalese-a (xing) 10.36
16 up-brahmin (harappa) 10.52
17 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.47
18 pathan (hgdp) 10.82
19 sindhi (hgdp) 12.37
20 bhatia (harappa) 12.29

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 10:36 PM
Which users state they're low class? Tarkhans in modern Punjab, at least the Sikhs, have a fairly alright position. I mean they're not as wealthy as Jatts, but they're nowhere near the Dalits/chamars.

I agree with what you're saying. Hence some discussions we've had over the years were different from what I've felt growing up. In some books we've been written as lower status, so it's all over the place.

poi
01-28-2021, 10:44 PM
I highly doubt a community offshoot of Brahmins would end up at dalit status, at the bottom of society.

Ancient texts were pretty inconsistent when it comes to castes, but widely-adopted classical/medieval socio-religious texts like Manu Smriti:

15. Twice-born men who, in their folly, wed wives of the low (Sudra) caste, soon degrade their families and their children to the state of Sudras.
16. According to Atri and to (Gautama) the son of Utathya, he who weds a Sudra woman becomes an outcast, according to Saunaka on the birth of a son, and according to Bhrigu he who has (male) offspring from a (Sudra female, alone).

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu03.htm

The "twice born" man would become an outcast, if that rule was followed.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 10:51 PM
Ancient texts were pretty inconsistent when it comes to castes, but widely-adopted classical/medieval socio-religious texts like Manu Smriti:

15. Twice-born men who, in their folly, wed wives of the low (Sudra) caste, soon degrade their families and their children to the state of Sudras.
16. According to Atri and to (Gautama) the son of Utathya, he who weds a Sudra woman becomes an outcast, according to Saunaka on the birth of a son, and according to Bhrigu he who has (male) offspring from a (Sudra female, alone).

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu03.htm

The "twice born" man would become an outcast, if that rule was followed.

That'd only make sense if it showed in the genetic results though. If a brahmin married a dalit from punjab, the results would be drastically different, we had a user "Serena" in past. The Y haplo groups do not match either, so I just think it was a made up story to lift up their status in society.

Jatt1
01-28-2021, 11:13 PM
That'd only make sense if it showed in the genetic results though. If a brahmin married a dalit from punjab, the results would be drastically different, we had a user "Serena" in past. The Y haplo groups do not match either, so I just think it was a made up story to lift up their status in society.

Not only that but also to stay genetically pure.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 11:16 PM
Not only that but also to stay genetically pure.

It only creates bottleneck effects, as I've seen in Tarkhans or some brahmin groups. Not the healthiest thing if your numbers are low lol.

desi
01-28-2021, 11:32 PM
Ancient texts were pretty inconsistent when it comes to castes, but widely-adopted classical/medieval socio-religious texts like Manu Smriti:

15. Twice-born men who, in their folly, wed wives of the low (Sudra) caste, soon degrade their families and their children to the state of Sudras.
16. According to Atri and to (Gautama) the son of Utathya, he who weds a Sudra woman becomes an outcast, according to Saunaka on the birth of a son, and according to Bhrigu he who has (male) offspring from a (Sudra female, alone).

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu03.htm

The "twice born" man would become an outcast, if that rule was followed.

It doesn't even have to do with marriage, it can be just as simple as taking an offering:


चण्डालान्त्यस्त्रियो गत्वा भुक्त्वा च प्रतिगृह्य च ।
पतत्यज्ञानतो विप्रो ज्ञानात् साम्यं तु गच्छति ॥ १७५ ॥

caṇḍālāntyastriyo gatvā bhuktvā ca pratigṛhya ca |
patatyajñānato vipro jñānāt sāmyaṃ tu gacchati || 175 ||

If a Brāhmaṇa unintentionally approaches a woman of the Caṇḍāla or other lowest-born castes,—or eats her food, or receives her presents,—he becomes an outcast; but if he does it intentionally, he becomes her equal.—(175)

Also, interesting you mentioned Bhrigu, because my friend states that's the rishi branch that Tarkhans probably descend from.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 11:36 PM
It doesn't even have to do with marriage, it can be just as simple as taking an offering:



Also, interesting you mentioned Bhrigu, because my friend states that's the rishi branch that Tarkhans probably descend from.

Maybe picking up the manual work, which was considered "not clean" can also be linked to downfall in status. In Guru Nanak's story of Bhai Lalo, he was called Shudra.

One of the other reasons I doubt brahmin link for us, is due to lack of surname overlap with Brahmins. We overlap way more with jatts or Rajputs than Brahmins in terms of surnames.

desi
01-28-2021, 11:41 PM
Maybe picking up the manual work, which was considered "not clean" can also be linked to downfall in status. In Guru Nanak's story of Bhai Lalo, he was called Shudra.

One of the other reasons I doubt brahmin link for us, is due to lack of surname overlap with Brahmins. We overlap way more with jatts or Rajputs than Brahmins in terms of surnames.

It actually doesn't have to do with manual work. Carpentry was sacred during the Vedic times. My friend simply said that Tarkhans missed their position in the solidification of the varna/caste system around the beginning of the Gupta Empire due to various reasons.

Regarding last names, I heard Devgan is an overlap. But also, most Brahmin and Tarkhan surnames are actually very recent apart from the ones that use the rishi names (Bhardvaja, Bhargava et al). I think the Jatt/Rajput surnames are a result of Sikhs who joined the Ramgharia misl rather than have a true Tarkhan origin.

poi
01-28-2021, 11:51 PM
Maybe picking up the manual work, which was considered "not clean" can also be linked to downfall in status. In Guru Nanak's story of Bhai Lalo, he was called Shudra.

One of the other reasons I doubt brahmin link for us, is due to lack of surname overlap with Brahmins. We overlap way more with jatts or Rajputs than Brahmins in terms of surnames.

The origin of surnames would be a relatively recent phenomenon in non-Islamic South Asia, wouldn’t it? If there was a turnover of a previously higher caste group due to ritual(rather than marriage) offenses, those folks would not have surnames , just the story of their previous caste... then later they would take up surnames for administrative purposes.

Btw, I am purely speaking from my modern perspectives and not within the context of any particular Punjabi group. I do know from my ethnic group that caste rules were pretty rigid and there had been instances of “losing caste”(Jaat Jaane) altogether.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2021, 11:55 PM
It actually doesn't have to do with manual work. Carpentry was sacred during the Vedic times. My friend simply said that Tarkhans missed their position in the solidification of the varna/caste system around the beginning of the Gupta Empire due to various positions.

Regarding last names, I heard Devgan is an overlap. But also, most Brahmin and Tarkhan surnames are actually very recent apart from the ones that use the rishi names (Bhardvaja, Bhargava et al). I think the Jatt/Rajput surnames are a result of Sikhs who joined the Ramgharia misl rather than have a true Tarkhan origin.

Surnames like ghatore, Bhamra, Panesar, Sembhi, Kalsi and Khokhar predates the Sikh empire. Devgan is indeed a shared surname with brahmins. My massi's family are devgan, going to test her son soon.

I'm not sure if same varna system can be applied in Punjab and west of it, that is prevalent in rest of India.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2021, 12:00 AM
The origin of surnames would be a relatively recent phenomenon in non-Islamic South Asia, wouldn’t it? If there was a turnover of a previously higher caste group due to ritual(rather than marriage) offenses, those folks would not have surnames , just the story of their previous caste... then later they would take up surnames for administrative purposes.

Btw, I am purely speaking from my modern perspectives and not within the context of any particular Punjabi group. I do know from my ethnic group that caste rules were pretty rigid and there had been instances of “losing caste”(Jaat Jaane) altogether.

Yes I'm aware of people kicked out of bahun status if they're result of brahmin and non brahmin marriage. Know a Chhetri guy who's dad is bahun, mom chhetri. And it must be true for rest of subcontinent too.

The issue with our history is, there is no record pre sikhism at all. While other biradaris, even Nais and chhimbas show up in record's of Mughal invasions, we are just completely absent. So there is no way to know anything pre Sikh era. Although we do know certain surnames existed during Sikh era due to some big names being from Tarkhan community.

The level of inbreeding the community shows, and the small numbers we've, it'd also rule out a lot of "absorbed into the community over time" argument. It's a shame no one bothered to record our history.

desi
01-29-2021, 12:05 AM
Surnames like ghatore, Bhamra, Panesar, Sembhi, Kalsi and Khokhar predates the Sikh empire. Devgan is indeed a shared surname with brahmins. My massi's family are devgan, going to test her son soon.

I'm not sure if same varna system can be applied in Punjab and west of it, that is prevalent in rest of India.

I can attest Ghatore predates the Sikh Empire. Bhai Lalo was a Ghatore. But you also have to take into account that a lot of these surnames are just taken from places where people lived or even from tribes they left.

In the case of Bhai Lalo (who btw was not referred to as Shudra, but a non-Kshatriya in Sikh historiography), even though he lived in Eminabad, Ghatore are believed to have come from Ghator (modern Faisalabad). I'm guessing after the intial Tarkhans (referred to as Rathakaras in the Vedas) were outcast, they clung to regional or tribal identities.

Also, the varna system was prevalent in Punjab for a very little time. I'm guessing it was only relevant until the late-Vedic period, after which the expansion happened eastwards towards Kuru. After that Punjab became heavily Buddhist, reverted back into Hinduism (which I'm guessing is a reason why many individuals lost their varna/caste and became outcastes) and then Islam took over, and finally in the medieval times, Sikhism took hold.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2021, 12:11 AM
I can attest Ghatore predates the Sikh Empire. Bhai Lalo was a Ghatore. But you also have to take into account that a lot of these surnames are just taken from places where people lived or even from tribes they left.

In the case of Bhai Lalo (who btw was not referred to as Shudra, but a non-Kshatriya in Sikh historiography), even though he lived in Eminabad, Ghatore are believed to have come from Ghator (modern Faisalabad). I'm guessing after the intial Tarkhans (referred to as Rathakaras in the Vedas) were outcast, they clung to regional or tribal identities.

Also, the varna system was prevalent in Punjab for a very little time. I'm guessing it was only relevant until the late-Vedic period, after which the expansion happened eastwards towards Kuru. After that Punjab became heavily Buddhist, reverted back into Hinduism (which I'm guessing is a reason why many individuals lost their varna/caste and became outcastes) and then Islam took over, and finally in the medieval times, Sikhism took hold.

What's the reference of Rathakaras being Tarkhans? I'm really curious and excited at the same time.

Koonger
01-29-2021, 03:34 AM
Tatkhan/vishkarmas are most probably descended from brahmins. Brahmins used to do carpentry in vedic time and it was a more respected profession in comparison of agriculture. Probably tarkhans used to enjoy higher class status in Punjab before British. British helped shudra , landless jatts to get some ground.

Jatt1
01-29-2021, 04:08 AM
Yes I'm aware of people kicked out of bahun status if they're result of brahmin and non brahmin marriage. Know a Chhetri guy who's dad is bahun, mom chhetri. And it must be true for rest of subcontinent too.

The issue with our history is, there is no record pre sikhism at all. While other biradaris, even Nais and chhimbas show up in record's of Mughal invasions, we are just completely absent. So there is no way to know anything pre Sikh era. Although we do know certain surnames existed during Sikh era due to some big names being from Tarkhan community.

The level of inbreeding the community shows, and the small numbers we've, it'd also rule out a lot of "absorbed into the community over time" argument. It's a shame no one bothered to record our history.

Pre Sikhism? Check the records at Haridwar.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2021, 04:12 AM
Pre Sikhism? Check the records at Haridwar.

My family did, the oldest it went to was around 1500s, atleast for us.

laltota
01-29-2021, 04:06 PM
Tatkhan/vishkarmas are most probably descended from brahmins. Brahmins used to do carpentry in vedic time and it was a more respected profession in comparison of agriculture. Probably tarkhans used to enjoy higher class status in Punjab before British. British helped shudra , landless jatts to get some ground.

Jatt are never "Shudra". What makes you say that? I only learnt of this Shudra word when we migrated, and that was by reading stuff. I never heard shudra being used in normal everyday speech by people in villages of Punjab for anyone.

I do not believe British gave any land to landless Jatts, or at least I have not heard of that.

Koonger
01-29-2021, 04:24 PM
Jatt are never "Shudra". What makes you say that? I only learnt of this Shudra word when we migrated, and that was by reading stuff. I never heard shudra being used in normal everyday speech by people in villages of Punjab for anyone.

I do not believe British gave any land to landless Jatts, or at least I have not heard of that.
I believe "desi" and others are from Punjab itself. Please read last few posts one by one or probably it was mentioned "the Punjab" thread

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2021, 08:21 PM
Jatt are never "Shudra". What makes you say that? I only learnt of this Shudra word when we migrated, and that was by reading stuff. I never heard shudra being used in normal everyday speech by people in villages of Punjab for anyone.

I do not believe British gave any land to landless Jatts, or at least I have not heard of that.

While I do not agree with his points, Jatts and most of biradaris do fall under shudra due to manual work. Any farmer, craftsmen that work with their hands, especially with soil, is a shudra. People tend to confuse "shudra" with Dalit a lot.

In past, the shudras were not allowed to wear the sacred thread, which both Khatris and Brahmins did wear.

The Jat sabha claimed OBC status based on farming being a shudra occupation:

http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/three-theories-on-which-jats-base-their-claim-of-being-obc/951734/

And no it is not used today, but was used in past.

Jatt1
01-29-2021, 08:38 PM
While I do not agree with his points, Jatts and most of biradaris do fall under shudra due to manual work. Any farmer, craftsmen that work with their hands, especially with soil, is a shudra. People tend to confuse "shudra" with Dalit a lot.

And no it is not used today, but was used in past.

All work with their hands, show me which varna doesn't? Shudra is craftsmens plus other supporting communities like kahars etc., But those who end up doing all the dirty work like chamar, chura and srera fall into the dalit/untouchable category.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2021, 08:52 PM
All work with their hands, show me which varna doesn't? Shudra is craftsmens plus other supporting communities like kahars etc., But those who end up doing all the dirty work like chamar, chura and srera fall into the dalit/untouchable category.

Working with hands mean manual labour. A brahmin doesn't do manual labour, nor does a khatri or a baniya. I already posted a link regarding it. A farmer is a peasant that works with soil. A farmer supports the society by providing grains.

The textbook definition of shudra includes Peasants and artisans in it. Not sure what to dispute about it.


Traditionally, Shudras were peasants and artisans. The ancient texts designate the Shudra as a peasant. Shudras were described as the giver of grain and ancient texts describe a Shudra's mode of earning as being "by the sickle and ears of corn". The ancient precept, "Vedas are destroyer of agriculture and agriculture is destroyer of Vedas", is shown as one of the reasons as to why the Shudras were not allowed to learn Vedas. The fact that peasants were held as Shudras is also documented by Chinese traveller Xuanzang in the 7th century. Also, an "outcaste" who entered the profession of agriculture would be absorbed in the Shudra varna.

Couple of sources on Farmers being peasants hence Shudra:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=guhtAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y


In same texts, the pure Shudras were described as giver of grain (annada) and householder (grhastha). The reason was that the actual work of cultivation was generally done by peasants belonging to the Shudras caste

J. S. Grewal; Project of History of Indian Science, Philosophy, and Culture (2005)
https://books.google.com/books?id=cgluAAAAMAAJ


At its beginning or a little before the millennium, the Manusmriti considers the pursuit of agriculture blameworthy because the 'wooden [plough] with the iron point injures the earth and the [beings] living in the earth'. Thus, by an appeal to the doctrine of ahimsa, so much promoted by Buddhism and Jainism, the plough became unclean, and the peasant who worked the plough earned opprobrium that has stuck till our own times. R. S. Sharma shows how in the legal texts peasants came generally to be regarded not as Vaishyas as earlier, but as Shudras. This is confirmed in the seventh century by Xuan Zhuang (Hsuan Tsang) who found that in India peasants were held to be Shudras. Such varna ranking of most peasant castes (now usually given the designation of 'Other Backward Castes') is thus more than 1300 years old, and was in place by the early medieval times. If certain older communities were thus reduced in status, it is possible that other communities, previously held to be outside the pale of the varna system, were absorbed as Shudra castes once they took to agriculture. We have such an example in the Kaivartas.

Jatt1
01-29-2021, 09:11 PM
delete.........

Jatt1
01-29-2021, 09:40 PM
Working with hands mean manual labour. A brahmin doesn't do manual labour, nor does a khatri or a baniya. I already posted a link regarding it. A farmer is a peasant that works with soil. A farmer supports the society by providing grains.

The textbook definition of shudra includes Peasants and artisans in it. Not sure what to dispute about it.



Couple of sources on Farmers being peasants hence Shudra:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=guhtAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y



J. S. Grewal; Project of History of Indian Science, Philosophy, and Culture (2005)
https://books.google.com/books?id=cgluAAAAMAAJ

By peasants you mean farm worker or farm owner? Did Manu say that? "by the sickle and ears of corn", when did corn reach India?

A Brahmin does Havan with hands, a Khatriya uses weapons with hands and a Baniya hands you purchases with his hands, do you disagree?

desi
01-29-2021, 10:24 PM
By peasants you mean farm worker or farm owner? Did Manu say that? "by the sickle and ears of corn", when did corn reach India?

Corn in British translations of ancient texts always refers to generic grains, not specifically maize, although that is what corn means nowadays:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corn

See the British (3) definition as well:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corn


I think the whole delineation of who constitutes what in the varna/caste system is redundant and was everchanging/fluid. However, Jats/Jatts do have a very well documented history in comparison to other tribes.

When the Arabs under MBQasim met them in Sindh, they were described as being similar to "chandalas."


When in 711-14, the Arabs conquered Sind, their commander Mohammad Bin Qasim readily approved all the constraints placed upon the Jatts under the previous regime, very similar to those prescribed for the Chandalas by the Manusmriti.

Then, after fighting Mahmud Ghaznavi, they were folded into the varna system after previously being outcasts, this is attested by Alberuni. And in the late Mughal period, had evolved into vaisya status.


A historically singular case is that of the Jatts, a pastoral Chandala-like tribe in eighth century Sind, who attained Sudra status by the eleventh century (Alberuni), and had become peasants par excellence (of vaisya status) by the seventeenth century (Dabistani-i Mazahib).

Now the vaisya status was awarded to them by the Mughals, and not necessarily Brahmins who still considered them Shudras.

Sources: Irfan Habib, Chachnama, Tārīkh al-Hind, Dabistani-i Mazahib

So, it seems like they have a fluid identity, but were originally outcastes/shudras.

Sapporo
01-30-2021, 05:19 AM
I believe "desi" and others are from Punjab itself. Please read last few posts one by one or probably it was mentioned "the Punjab" thread

I believe laltota is as well alongside many of the other members as well. I don't really care about the whole "shudra" discussion but what's your point?

Koonger
01-30-2021, 05:49 AM
I believe laltota is as well alongside many of the other members as well. I don't really care about the whole "shudra" discussion but what's your point?

Apart from brahmins(few exceptions), varna status was fluid. there are many communities shuffled back and forth in remaining three varnas. North West is widely considered a land of avarnas. But amazingly , many Punjabi communities who lies in the lower strata even today they keep claiming their past varna status hardly with any evidence so north West is not much far from varna trap. By the way, any idea about chachnama and Albiruni writings as wrote in the post at the top of yours?

And I have nothing against jatts or any other community

Sapporo
01-30-2021, 06:50 AM
Apart from brahmins(few exceptions), varna status was fluid. there are many communities shuffled back and forth in remaining three varnas. North West is widely considered a land of avarnas. But amazingly , many Punjabi communities who lies in the lower strata even today they keep claiming their past varna status hardly with any evidence so north West is not much far from varna trap. By the way, any idea about chachnama and Albiruni writings as wrote in the post at the top of yours?

And I have nothing against jatts or any other community

I don't really understand the relevance of your point around varna status being fluid or not with regards to my comment. I was merely pointing out (albeit indirectly) that there are multiple members here who have ancestry from Punjab or are actually from Punjab itself and not a multi-generational diaspora descendant. So, I wouldn't necessarily appeal to one (that was my impression at least) over the other with regards to authority on information or experiences regarding "the Punjab."

agent_lime
01-30-2021, 06:51 AM
This Shudra discussion is moot. Punjab really doesn't work like that. The reason Khatris were considered an upward caste is because they basically paid the Brahmins to declare them so even if they were allegedly Kashtriyas. The Rajputs are the same as well, bribed the Brahmins to declare them Rajputs. Punjab was not under the Gangetic system, even our Hinduism was more Vedic in nature before the UP/Bihar holy men spread their toolkit of Santam Dharm.

Everyone except Punjabi Brahmins are avarna in Punjab, which is Shudra when they come in the fold. Brahmins had limited power in Punjab. The king makers were the Muslim Zaamindars/ Rajputs/ Khatris and these days it's mostly the Jatts(in Eastern Punjab) and Rajputs, Jats, Arians, Gujjars (in Western Punjab).

Jatt1
01-30-2021, 06:55 AM
Corn in British translations of ancient texts always refers to generic grains, not specifically maize, although that is what corn means nowadays:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corn

See the British (3) definition as well:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cornWhere is that original text, let us see that first?


I think the whole delineation of who constitutes what in the varna/caste system is redundant and was everchanging/fluid. However, Jats/Jatts do have a very well documented history in comparison to other tribes.

When the Arabs under MBQasim met them in Sindh, they were described as being similar to "chandalas."

Then, after fighting Mahmud Ghaznavi, they were folded into the varna system after previously being outcasts, this is attested by Alberuni. And in the late Mughal period, had evolved into vaisya status.

Now the vaisya status was awarded to them by the Mughals, and not necessarily Brahmins who still considered them Shudras.

Sources: Irfan Habib, Chachnama, Tārīkh al-Hind, Dabistani-i Mazahib

So, it seems like they have a fluid identity, but were originally outcastes/shudras.


Where is that original text that the English translated, let us see that first?


And then they were hired as soldiers and taken to Iraq. So chandals became Kshatryas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandala . Do you even understand what a Chandala is, castes are by profession, do you not understand that?

So Muslims, not the Brahmins decides what an outcaste's Hindu varna is? That is very enlightening, indeed.

Can an outcaste have a varna, either he is an outcaste or he is a Shudra, do you disagree?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2021, 07:01 AM
Guys let's take this shudra/caste dynamics of punjab discussion to The Punjab thread. Honestly, agent lime summed everything pretty well. We are going way offtopic now from the purpose of this thread.

desi
01-30-2021, 07:18 AM
Where is that original text that the English translated, let us see that first?


And then they were hired as soldiers and taken to Iraq. So chandals became Kshatryas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandala . Do you even understand what a Chandala is, castes are by profession, do you not understand that?

So Muslims, not the Brahmins decides what an outcaste's Hindu varna is? That is very enlightening, indeed.

Can an outcaste have a varna, either he is an outcaste or he is a Shudra, do you disagree?

1) That quote is from a Pali Buddhist text called Majjimi Nikaya:

42953

2) I am completely aware of what a chandala is, however that is what the Chachnama describes them as being similar to. I did not make this up or make these assertions.

2) The Dabistani-i Mazahib documented the Mughal perspective on South Asian society/religions. However the author is in fact believed to be a Persian Zoroastrian and not Muslim, so that is why I stated that the Brahmins did not outright state Jats/Jatts were vaishyas, but that's how this individual/Mughals saw them as they began to trickle into their sphere of influence as zamindars, which was previously occupied by Rajputs. This is agreed upon by historian Irfan Habib as well.

3) Like I said before, these talks of varna/avarna seem very fluid, so as history shows many Brahmin groups became outcasts and outcasts became a part of the fold. I personally don't subscribe to this system, however, as talks of varna were brought in this thread and assertions were being made about certain Punjabi biraderis belonging to certain varnas and others not, I was just attempting to clarify that using a historical perspective. I agree with agent_lime that for whatever reason Punjab, except for Brahmins, is avarna, and so all these talks are redundant anyway.

laltota
01-30-2021, 07:51 AM
Guys let's take this shudra/caste dynamics of punjab discussion to The Punjab thread. Honestly, agent lime summed everything pretty well. We are going way offtopic now from the purpose of this thread.

We can ask a Moderator to move some posts from here to the Punjab thread.

btw reason Jatts dont wear a "sacred" thread is because they don't want to, not because they are not allowed to wear it or were not allowed to wear it. There is nothing sacred about a thread. I can wear my own thread even if a Brahmin does not give to me, and then call my thread "sacred". Who will prevent me to wear my own "sacred" thread?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2021, 07:59 AM
We can ask a Moderator to move some posts from here to the Punjab thread.

btw reason Jatts dont wear a "sacred" thread is because they don't want to, not because they are not allowed to wear it or were not allowed to wear it. There is nothing sacred about a thread. I can wear my own thread even if a Brahmin does not give to me, and then call my thread "sacred". Who will prevent me to wear my own "sacred" thread?

There is nothing about wanting to wear it or not. I posted sources that talk about varna, caste system and where farmers sit. If you'd like to ask this question, ask those historians. According to vedas and these historians, a farmer, whatever community is from, is a shudra. I go with the sources.

Jatt1
01-30-2021, 08:56 AM
There is nothing about wanting to wear it or not. I posted sources that talk about varna, caste system and where farmers sit. If you'd like to ask this question, ask those historians. According to vedas and these historians, a farmer, whatever community is from, is a shudra. I go with the sources.

Jhoot hai sab tareekh hamesha apne ko dohraati hai
achcha mera khwaab-e-jawani thoda sa dohraaye to
- Andaleeb Shadani

Let us see what your Vedas say, if it is different than that Buddhist source, the Buddhist source makes distinction between a farmer and a farm laborer. I wanted to see the original one in Pali which he didn't provide. It is difficult to believe that a cowboy's varna be higher than the farmer, but it is possible, because IA were basically cowboys and they would prefer their own over the IVC agriculturists.

Koonger
01-30-2021, 09:33 AM
I don't really understand the relevance of your point around varna status being fluid or not with regards to my comment. I was merely pointing out (albeit indirectly) that there are multiple members here who have ancestry from Punjab or are actually from Punjab itself and not a multi-generational diaspora descendant. So, I wouldn't necessarily appeal to one (that was my impression at least) over the other with regards to authority on information or experiences regarding "the Punjab."

I regret for not understanding your indirect contention. I have experiences on several social platforms as communities like Saini, Kamboj etc are enforcing their Rajput identity though they have hardly any connections with actual Rajputs who came under the fold of this term just few hundreds years before. Similarily few other communities claiming Brahmin origin. I just intended to ask whether it is attested by historical records? And probably people here may have other evidences apart from grandmother/ grandfather stories or their havelis/ zaildari of recent times.
As far as jats are concerned, this chachnama and Albiruni narrative does not hold much ground.
- in chachnama , Jat word is mentioned with Lohana, Lakha and samma. Lakha, samma and Lohana are also mentioned as towns/places. These jats or Samma/lohanas etc probably were shamans practising kinda Buddhism. Few centuries later, lohanas and Samna established as separate castes. Samms, sumra etc mentioned as jats in eight century adopted Rajput identity later. Jadeja Rajput of Gujarat are sammas. Sumras ruled sindh for few centuries. So it is not attested how firmly these chachnama jats are identical to jats of north West including jats of Haryana/Rajasthan.On one hand, Even today there are garasia, maldharis jats established in kachh-gujarat and migrated from sindh who are pastoralists and camel care takers but in the same sindh region there are ruling jat clans like malhi who fought against alexander and wounded him. There is even contention on etymology of "Jat" word used for these pastoralists in comparison of agriculturalists jats.
- Albiruni also mentioned that Shri Krishna was born in shudra Jat caste but Mahabharat does not speak like this on Shri krishns. Shri Krishna was a yadav. Albiruni writings can be nowhere taken as authority.

Koonger
01-30-2021, 09:48 AM
Jhoot hai sab tareekh hamesha apne ko dohraati hai
achcha mera khwaab-e-jawani thoda sa dohraaye to
- Andaleeb Shadani

Let us see what your Vedas say, if it is different than that Buddhist source, the Buddhist source makes distinction between a farmer and a farm laborer. I wanted to see the original one in Pali which he didn't provide. It is difficult to believe that a cowboy's varna be higher than the farmer, but it is possible, because IA were basically cowboys and they would prefer their own over the IVC agriculturists.
Can you please help to point where in vedas agriculture is mentioned as shudra profession?
Bhagwat Geeta clearly says that agriculture and trading cones under vaishya varna
"Agriculture, cattle-rearing and trade form the duty of the Vaisya springing from his own nature, while the natural duty of a Sudra consists in subordinate service under others. [Gita 18.44]"

Koonger
01-30-2021, 09:54 AM
By the way, can anyone help me in pointing out few Yadavs samples?

deuterium_1
01-30-2021, 02:38 PM
Did anyone here from the UK got a chance to watch this BBC documentary on Sikh opposition to marriages outside their faith in a Gurdwara?:


https://splicepost.com/work/documentary/young-sikh-and-proud

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000dv1b

It was quite interesting, I wonder if any of this strict endogamy is culturally derived from groups such as the Tarkhans or Ramgarhia?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2021, 05:14 PM
Jhoot hai sab tareekh hamesha apne ko dohraati hai
achcha mera khwaab-e-jawani thoda sa dohraaye to
- Andaleeb Shadani

Let us see what your Vedas say, if it is different than that Buddhist source, the Buddhist source makes distinction between a farmer and a farm laborer. I wanted to see the original one in Pali which he didn't provide. It is difficult to believe that a cowboy's varna be higher than the farmer, but it is possible, because IA were basically cowboys and they would prefer their own over the IVC agriculturists.

Good shayari, not sure what was the purpose here. My vedas? You're being worked up for nothing. I don't recall writing them nor embracing them. I already posted the sources, the books and historian references. I dislike varna system and nor do I believe in it. But I don't get worked up when someone calls us low caste or shudra. The reality is reality. As I replied to Laltota, if you have issues with history and those historians, debate with historians. Don't forget Jat Association of India that tried to prove Jats as shudras to get the OBC status.

And the argument of farm labour and farm landlord is so ridiculous. Not every farmer is landlord, owning hundreds of acres. The small scale farmers outnumber these big farmers. Else every single Farmer would be called "Lambardar". There is whole protest going on right now where farmers are trying to prove they are not big landlords but farmers who work with hands.

Jatt1
01-30-2021, 10:02 PM
Good shayari, not sure what was the purpose here. My vedas? You're being worked up for nothing. I don't recall writing them nor embracing them. I already posted the sources, the books and historian references. I dislike varna system and nor do I believe in it. But I don't get worked up when someone calls us low caste or shudra. The reality is reality. As I replied to Laltota, if you have issues with history and those historians, debate with historians. Don't forget Jat Association of India that tried to prove Jats as shudras to get the OBC status.

And the argument of farm labour and farm landlord is so ridiculous. Not every farmer is landlord, owning hundreds of acres. The small scale farmers outnumber these big farmers. Else every single Farmer would be called "Lambardar". There is whole protest going on right now where farmers are trying to prove they are not big landlords but farmers who work with hands.


History is generally heavily biased, you do not need to go back in time to realize that, everyone's version of certain event is different and that is an every day occurrence, just read newspaper or listen to the news.

We are talking about olden days when the varna system was created. Originally those farms were very big because they end up divided each generation so the lots become smaller. Why you bring Jat Association of India into this, it is obvious when a system is not fair the affected lot will try to get it remedied in one way or the other.

You said you don't get worked up, really? Just read your response to know yourself better.

Either one is an avarna or one is a shudra, the varna system doesn't apply to avarna.

I was looking for a real qoute from Vedas and in those references it is clear they are talking about landless farm workers.

Moreover I think we should stick to Genetics etc. on these forums, that is all what I am here for, I hope you agree.

Rahuls77
01-30-2021, 10:03 PM
Good shayari, not sure what was the purpose here. My vedas? You're being worked up for nothing. I don't recall writing them nor embracing them. I already posted the sources, the books and historian references. I dislike varna system and nor do I believe in it. But I don't get worked up when someone calls us low caste or shudra. The reality is reality. As I replied to Laltota, if you have issues with history and those historians, debate with historians. Don't forget Jat Association of India that tried to prove Jats as shudras to get the OBC status.

And the argument of farm labour and farm landlord is so ridiculous. Not every farmer is landlord, owning hundreds of acres. The small scale farmers outnumber these big farmers. Else every single Farmer would be called "Lambardar". There is whole protest going on right now where farmers are trying to prove they are not big landlords but farmers who work with hands.

I don't think this is a forum for discussions on the ongoing politics, major social media platforms are a better platform for doing all of that. :)
However Rig Veda has one Hymn, Volume 4, Hymn 57, which talks about the role of the cultivator. And through the rest of the Rig Veda, farming, or tilling of earth is viewed as somewhat noble. The myth of Sita and Janak, which are most likely archaic symbols of earth and tilling, later incorporated into the myth of Ramayana, were held sacred in the period when there was a pastoral-agricultural state in the society.
Whatever might have happened during the period when the new caste system emerged, had nothing much in common with the original period.

Here's the hymn:
1. WE through the Master of the Field, even as through a friend, obtain
What nourisheth our kine and steeds. In such may he be good to us.
2 As the cow yieldeth milk, pour for us freely, Lord of the Field, the wave that beareth sweetness,
Distilling meath, well-purified like butter, and let the. Lords of holy Law be gracious.
3 Sweet be the plants for us. the heavens, the waters, and full of sweets for us be air's mid-region.
May the Field's Lord for us be full of sweetness, and may we follow after him uninjured.
4 Happily work our steers and men, may the plough furrow happily.
Happily be the traces bound; happily may he ply the goad.
5 Śuna and Sīra, welcome ye this laud, and with the milk which ye have made in heaven
Bedew ye both this earth of ours.
6 Auspicious Sītā, come thou near: we venerate and worship thee
That thou mayst bless and prosper us and bring us fruits abundantly.
7 May Indra press the furrow down, may Pūṣan guide its course aright.
May she, as rich in milk, be drained for us through each succeeding year.
8 Happily let the shares turn up the plough-land, happily go the ploughers with the oxen.
With meath and milk Parjanya make us happy. Grant us prosperity, Śuna and Sīra.

Rahuls77
01-30-2021, 10:06 PM
Besides, if the Vedic people had been sitting on their chairs and avoiding farming, which was practiced in the BMAC, in the Srubnaya, they would not have survived, and at that time the size of the population wasn't as huge as it became, about 2400-2000 ybp.

desi
01-30-2021, 10:14 PM
I don't think this is a forum for discussions on the ongoing politics, major social media platforms are a better platform for doing all of that. :)
However Rig Veda has one Hymn, Volume 4, Hymn 57, which talks about the role of the cultivator. And through the rest of the Rig Veda, farming, or tilling of earth is viewed as somewhat noble. The myth of Sita and Janak, which are most likely archaic symbols of earth and tilling, later incorporated into the myth of Ramayana, were held sacred in the period when there was a pastoral-agricultural state in the society.
Whatever might have happened during the period when the new caste system emerged, had nothing much in common with the original period.

Here's the hymn:
1. WE through the Master of the Field, even as through a friend, obtain
What nourisheth our kine and steeds. In such may he be good to us.
2 As the cow yieldeth milk, pour for us freely, Lord of the Field, the wave that beareth sweetness,
Distilling meath, well-purified like butter, and let the. Lords of holy Law be gracious.
3 Sweet be the plants for us. the heavens, the waters, and full of sweets for us be air's mid-region.
May the Field's Lord for us be full of sweetness, and may we follow after him uninjured.
4 Happily work our steers and men, may the plough furrow happily.
Happily be the traces bound; happily may he ply the goad.
5 Śuna and Sīra, welcome ye this laud, and with the milk which ye have made in heaven
Bedew ye both this earth of ours.
6 Auspicious Sītā, come thou near: we venerate and worship thee
That thou mayst bless and prosper us and bring us fruits abundantly.
7 May Indra press the furrow down, may Pūṣan guide its course aright.
May she, as rich in milk, be drained for us through each succeeding year.
8 Happily let the shares turn up the plough-land, happily go the ploughers with the oxen.
With meath and milk Parjanya make us happy. Grant us prosperity, Śuna and Sīra.

Yeah, the Vedic ideas in the Northwest seem to be very different from the Gangetic ones where the caste system originated. This is why I believe it would be wrong to use that system to ascribe or equate a varna status to the Northwest tribes.

Rahuls77
01-31-2021, 05:45 AM
Yeah, the Vedic ideas in the Northwest seem to be very different from the Gangetic ones where the caste system originated. This is why I believe it would be wrong to use that system to ascribe or equate a varna status to the Northwest tribes.

My own lot had land and tilling was normal. However since there wasn't a very wide network of canals for irrigation, it was a little challenging and most men would also enlist in the army, speaking of the British period. The urban business classes and the money-lending lot wasn't into farming, however. In fact the early partition riots in Pindi were against Hindu and Sikh business people.

Rahuls77
01-31-2021, 06:21 AM
Yeah, the Vedic ideas in the Northwest seem to be very different from the Gangetic ones where the caste system originated. This is why I believe it would be wrong to use that system to ascribe or equate a varna status to the Northwest tribes.

By the way, a lot of Hindi heartland people, brahmins and such believe people like ourselves to be Shudars.

desi
01-31-2021, 06:31 AM
By the way, a lot of Hindi heartland people, brahmins and such believe people like ourselves to be Shudars.

Yeah I've encountered some Bhumihars/Pandey/Dubey/Tiwari types in the Bay Area and they don't hold very high opinions of us Northwesterners. I suppose the feeling is mutual on a general scale.

vishankar
01-31-2021, 06:52 AM
Hats off to the punjabi biradari who stood their ground against brahmin hegemony and superimposition of caste hierarchy....i have read and heard that the Jats are contemptous of the Brahmins and Banias,,,,and dont consider them ( especially banias) manly enough!.....Kshatriyas are generally expected to toe the brahmin line....and i guess Jats ,,tarkhans et al were too independent minded to do that!...... also as mentioned some of the landowning and soldier castes"" graduated"" to Kshatriyahood by offerings of gold and kindred objects...much like some nairs in kerala graduated to kshatriyahood by the same route!

Kirtan24
01-31-2021, 07:23 AM
By the way, a lot of Hindi heartland people, brahmins and such believe people like ourselves to be Shudars.

This is surprising! Don't know about the Punjabi/Potohari Brahmins, but a few Haryanvi Brahmins I am friends with and who have settled in Gujarat do not intermarry with us Gujarati Brahmins, but have no problems marrying UP/Uttarakhand/Punjabi/Rajasthani Brahmins. A similar mentality prevails in the UP Brahmins living in Ahmedabad/Baroda/Anand area. They would marry the Haryanvi/Rajasthani/Bihari ones, but Gujarati Brahmins are too "different" and too "unorthodox" for them (just quoting my Brahmin friend from UP).

Sorry for digressing!

MonkeyDLuffy
01-31-2021, 09:22 AM
My own lot had land and tilling was normal. However since there wasn't a very wide network of canals for irrigation, it was a little challenging and most men would also enlist in the army, speaking of the British period. The urban business classes and the money-lending lot wasn't into farming, however. In fact the early partition riots in Pindi were against Hindu and Sikh business people.

Both sides of my family had decent land, and my uncles primarily do farming (hence also active in farmer movement right now). We abandoned carpentry as primary income source long time ago, my grandpa was the last generation that knew it, but they still didn't do it primarily. I think pretty much all biradaris had a bit of land and did some farming (not commercial). Some relatives did farming as primary income source, some did carpentry.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-31-2021, 09:24 AM
This is surprising! Don't know about the Punjabi/Potohari Brahmins, but a few Haryanvi Brahmins I am friends with and who have settled in Gujarat do not intermarry with us Gujarati Brahmins, but have no problems marrying UP/Uttarakhand/Punjabi/Rajasthani Brahmins. A similar mentality prevails in the UP Brahmins living in Ahmedabad/Baroda/Anand area. They would marry the Haryanvi/Rajasthani/Bihari ones, but Gujarati Brahmins are too "different" and too "unorthodox" for them (just quoting my Brahmin friend from UP).

Sorry for digressing!

Doesn't that sound ridiculous though? It's 2021 and people are caring about castes or even regional differences when it comes to marriage. I wonder if Genetic tests become mainstream in future, people will be marrying based on how much steppe or iran N one has.

"Sorry we can't give our daughter to your son, his top population in oracle is patel".

Kirtan24
01-31-2021, 10:19 AM
Doesn't that sound ridiculous though? It's 2021 and people are caring about castes or even regional differences when it comes to marriage. I wonder if Genetic tests become mainstream in future, people will be marrying based on how much steppe or iran N one has.

"Sorry we can't give our daughter to your son, his top population in oracle is patel".

Hah yeah, it does. But on the other hand, it is also understandable if one puts oneself in their shoes. Breaking a "tradition" that has went on for thousands of years requires a huge leap out of the comfort zone.
As the saying goes, better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.
So it will take time till things change completely. The generation of our parents (I am 24, so people who are in their late 40s and older) will be, according to me, the last one to pose such restrictions. And even in that demographic the winds of change are already blowing, especially in urban and educated areas.
I speculate that the percentage of intercaste and interstate marriages in our children's generation will easily exceed 50%.

Haha thankfully, the genetic tests most probably won't become mainstream! If they do, that will create a whole new bunch of problems! The whole thing will be politicized endlessly.

Rahuls77
01-31-2021, 10:43 AM
Doesn't that sound ridiculous though? It's 2021 and people are caring about castes or even regional differences when it comes to marriage. I wonder if Genetic tests become mainstream in future, people will be marrying based on how much steppe or iran N one has.

"Sorry we can't give our daughter to your son, his top population in oracle is patel".

Gall serf shaadi vyah tikan mehdood nei, kaein saray banday specialist ne, bandyan di zaat te waqaar da hesaab lagaan ch, as is the case with most human groups, generalisations still rule our thoughts heavily.

Rahuls77
01-31-2021, 10:50 AM
Hah yeah, it does. But on the other hand, it is also understandable if one puts oneself in their shoes. Breaking a "tradition" that has went on for thousands of years requires a huge leap out of the comfort zone.
As the saying goes, better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.
So it will take time till things change completely. The generation of our parents (I am 24, so people who are in their late 40s and older) will be, according to me, the last one to pose such restrictions. And even in that demographic the winds of change are already blowing, especially in urban and educated areas.
I speculate that the percentage of intercaste and interstate marriages in our children's generation will easily exceed 50%.

Haha thankfully, the genetic tests most probably won't become mainstream! If they do, that will create a whole new bunch of problems! The whole thing will be politicized endlessly.

Not very likely.

Anyhow, as Desi said, there is a lot of mutual 'no love lost'.

Reza
01-31-2021, 11:21 AM
We're digressing onto quite a tangent in this thread.

I appreciate that the history of tarkhans is clearly relevant to discussing their admixture and haplogroup results, but can we please try to remain on topic.

Discussions re caste prejudices and other more tangential subjects are not appropriate for this thread.

laltota
02-02-2021, 12:19 AM
There is nothing about wanting to wear it or not. I posted sources that talk about varna, caste system and where farmers sit. If you'd like to ask this question, ask those historians. According to vedas and these historians, a farmer, whatever community is from, is a shudra. I go with the sources.


There are Brahmins who are farmers (who actually do farming work), but they do not become shudra due to that.
We have to be careful about what has been written. Just because it is written somewhere or by someone, does not mean it is really so true.
We can discuss it further, but there has to be a thread or forum that allows such a discussion.

Tarkhan Tarkan
02-04-2021, 05:57 AM
Baba Ala Singh (ancestor of Captain Amrinder Singh, founder of Patiala State) used to wear sacred thread (Qazi Nur Mohammad's Jangnama).

Tarkhan Tarkan
02-04-2021, 05:58 AM
𝗠𝗮𝗷𝗼𝗿 𝗧𝗮𝗿𝗸𝗵𝗮𝗻 𝗖𝗹𝗮𝗻𝘀 ਗੋਤ

𝗔𝗷𝗶𝗺𝗮𝗹/𝗔𝗴𝗶𝗺𝗮𝗹

Assal

𝗕𝗮𝗵𝗮𝗿𝗮/𝗕𝗮𝗵𝗿𝗮

𝗕𝗵𝗮𝗺𝗿𝗮/𝗕𝗮𝗺𝗿𝗮𝗵/𝗕𝗵𝘂𝗺𝗿𝗮𝗵/Babrah

𝗕𝗶𝗹𝗸𝗵𝘂/𝗪𝗶𝗹𝗸𝗵𝘂/𝗩𝗶𝗹𝗸𝗵𝘂

Bhurjee/Bhurji

𝗕𝗵𝗼𝗴𝗮𝗹

𝗖𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗮/𝗖𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗻𝗶/𝗖𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗻𝗲𝘆

Chaggar/Chagger/Chagar

Chela

𝗗𝗲𝗲𝗴𝘂𝗻/𝗗𝗲𝗼𝗴𝘂𝗻/𝗗𝗲𝘃𝗴𝘂𝗻

𝗗𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗷𝗮𝗹

𝗗𝗵𝗮𝗺𝗺𝘂/𝗗𝗵𝗮𝗺𝘂

𝗙𝗹𝗼𝗿𝗮/𝗣𝗵𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗿𝗮

𝗚𝗵𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗮𝘂𝗿𝗮/𝗚𝗵𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿𝗵𝗮

𝗚𝗵𝗮𝗹𝗲𝘆/𝗚𝗮𝗵𝗹𝗲𝘆/𝗚𝗵𝗮𝗹𝗲

𝗛𝘂𝗻𝗷𝗮𝗻/𝗛𝗼𝗼𝗻𝗷𝗮𝗻/𝗛𝗼𝗼𝗻𝗴𝗮𝗻/𝗛𝘂𝗻𝗷𝗵𝗮

Jabbal/Jabal

𝗝𝗵𝗲𝗲𝘁𝗮/𝗝𝗵𝗶𝘁𝘁𝗮

𝗝𝗵𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗻𝘁/𝗝𝗵𝗶𝗼𝘂𝗻𝘁

𝗝𝗮𝗴𝗱𝗲𝘃/𝗝𝗮𝗴𝗱𝗲𝗼

Kundi

Lall/Layal/Loyal

Lassoi

𝗚𝗮𝗶𝗱𝘂/Gade

𝗞𝗮𝗹𝘀𝗶/𝗞𝗮𝗹𝘀𝘆/𝗞𝗮𝗹𝗮𝘀𝗶

Ladhroya/Ladroia

𝗟𝗼𝘁𝗮/𝗟𝗼𝘁𝗲𝘆

𝗠𝗮𝘀𝗼𝗻/𝗠𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗼𝗻

Man/Main

𝗡𝗼𝘁𝘁𝗮/𝗡𝗼𝘁𝗲𝘆

Osahan

𝗥𝗶𝗮𝘁/𝗥𝗮𝘆𝗮𝘁/𝗥𝗲𝘆𝗮𝘁

Reelh/Rehal/Reehal

𝗣𝗮𝗻𝗲𝘀𝗮𝗿/𝗣𝗮𝗻𝗮𝘀𝗮𝗿

𝗣𝗵𝘂𝗹𝗹

𝗣𝗹𝗮𝗵𝗮/𝗣𝗮𝗹𝗮𝗵𝗮

𝗣𝗮𝗱𝗮𝗺

Rattan

𝗥𝗼𝗼𝗽𝗿𝗮𝗶/𝗥𝗼𝗼𝗽𝗿𝗮/𝗥𝘂𝗽𝗿𝗮

𝗥𝗮𝗷𝗽𝗮𝗹

Sandal/Sandaal

𝗦𝗮𝘂𝗻𝗱𝗵/𝗦𝗼𝗻𝗱

Sui/Sooi ਸੂਈ

Sokhi/Sokhey

𝗦𝗮𝗹𝗹/𝗦𝗮𝗹𝗵/𝗦𝗮𝗹𝗮𝗵

Taggar/Tagarh/Tagar

Thoka

𝗠𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗶𝗮𝗿

𝗦𝗮𝗴𝗼𝗼/𝗦𝗮𝗴𝗴𝘂

𝗦𝗶𝗮𝗻/𝗦𝗶𝘆𝗮𝗻/𝗦𝗲𝗲𝘆𝗮𝗻

𝗦𝗲𝗵𝗿𝗮/𝗦𝗲𝗲𝗵𝗿𝗮/𝗦𝗶𝗿𝗮

𝗩𝗶𝗿𝗱𝗶/𝗩𝗶𝗿𝗱𝗲𝗲/𝗩𝗲𝗿𝗱𝗶/𝗩𝗶𝗿𝗱𝘆/𝗕𝗶𝗿𝗱𝗶

𝗠𝗮𝘁𝗵𝗮𝗿𝘂/𝗠𝗮𝘁𝗵𝗮𝗿𝗼𝗼

𝗞𝗵𝗶𝘃𝗲/𝗞𝗵𝗲𝗲𝘃𝗮/𝗞𝗵𝗶𝘃𝗮

𝗨𝗯𝗵𝗶/𝗨𝗯𝗯𝗶

𝗦𝗲𝗵𝗺𝗯𝗶/𝗦𝗲𝗵𝗺𝗶/Sehmbey

𝗩𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗮𝗻/𝗪𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗮𝗻

𝗠𝗮𝗻𝗸𝗼𝗼/𝗠𝗮𝗻𝗸𝘂

Wasir/Wazir/Vazeer

Tarkhan clan overlap with other communities is less than 10%. Most of Tarkhans have Tarkhan exclusive clans (ਗੋਤ).

Tarkhan Tarkan
02-04-2021, 06:10 AM
One must also consider the population size Tarkhans are an ethnic minority. Most of Population of Punjab or Sikh is either Jat or Dalit. Despite being a minority contribution of Tarkhans in Sikhi and Sikh Diaspora can't be ignored. For example: Judge Dalip Singh Saund is reason that people of Sounth Asian descent can become citizens in USA.

Judge Dalip Singh Saund

(September 20, 1899- April 22, 1973)

First: Sikh, Asian, Indian to be elected in US Congress

First Asian Jugde in USA

They were trailblazers like Dalip Singh Saund – a young man from India who, in 1920, came to study agriculture, stayed to become a farmer, and took on the cause of citizenship for all people of South Asian descent
- Barack Obama, President of United States of America in 2012 at Asian Pacific American Institute for Congressional Studies gala in Washington, DC.

He was an American politician who was a member of the United States House of Representatives. He served the 29th District of California from January 3, 1957 to January 3, 1963.

In November 1956, D. S. Saund, who everyone simply called “#Judge,” became the first person of Asian descent elected to serve as a United States Representative. He was a tireless champion of his southern California district and the farmers who called it home. But his unique backstory—born in India, naturalized U.S. citizen, successful businessman, county judge—also catapulted him to the international stage. During his career in the House of Representatives, at the height of the Cold War, Saund became something of a transcendent politician who had the singular ability to engage audiences abroad. Although he frequently confronted discrimination during his life in the United States, Saund maintained his belief in the promises of American democracy.

in 1956 Saund, whose career would span the vocations of mathematician, farmer, author, activist and judge, became the first Indian-American elected to the U.S. House of Representatives, as well as the first – and so far only – Sikh member of Congress.

His son Dalip Saund Jr served as Lieutenant in US Army during Korean war (1947-1950).

In the 1940s, Saund helped launch a successful effort to convince the U.S. Congress to pass the Luce-Celler Act of 1946, which granted naturalization rights to Indian immigrants (then sometimes referred to as “Hindus”). After becoming a citizen himself, Saund was elected to a local judgeship in 1952 and then to the U.S. House in 1956. Saund served almost three full terms in Congress before suffering a debilitating stroke in 1962. He died in 1973.
43031

MonkeyDLuffy
02-04-2021, 01:45 PM
���������� �������������� ���������� ਗੋਤ

������������/������������

Assal

������������/����������

������������/������������/��������������/Babrah

������������/������������/������������

Bhurjee/Bhurji

������������

����������/������������/��������������

Chaggar/Chagger/Chagar

Chela

������������/������������/������������

��������������

������������/����������

����������/��������������

������������������/����������������

������������/������������/����������

������������/��������������/��������������/������������

Jabbal/Jabal

������������/������������

��������������/��������������

������������/������������

Kundi

Lall/Layal/Loyal

Lassoi

����������/Gade

����������/����������/������������

Ladhroya/Ladroia

��������/����������

����������/������������

Man/Main

����������/����������

Osahan

��������/����������/����������

Reelh/Rehal/Reehal

��������������/��������������

����������

����������/������������

����������

Rattan

��������������/������������/����������

������������

Sandal/Sandaal

������������/��������

Sui/Sooi ਸੂਈ

Sokhi/Sokhey

��������/��������/����������

Taggar/Tagarh/Tagar

Thoka

��������������

����������/����������

��������/����������/������������

����������/������������/��������

����������/������������/����������/����������/����������

��������������/����������������

����������/������������/����������

��������/��������

������������/����������/Sehmbey

������������/������������

������������/����������

Wasir/Wazir/Vazeer

Tarkhan clan overlap with other communities is less than 10%. Most of Tarkhans have Tarkhan exclusive clans (ਗੋਤ).

Yo my surname is missing from the list lmao

karnalIroh
02-05-2021, 02:08 AM
Yo my surname is missing from the list lmao

whats ur surname??

MonkeyDLuffy
02-05-2021, 02:08 AM
whats ur surname??

Dad side Kalyan, mom side Sembhi.

karnalIroh
02-05-2021, 02:09 AM
Dad side Kalyan, mom side Sembhi.

lmao that was fast

MonkeyDLuffy
02-05-2021, 02:12 AM
lmao that was fast

Speedy Singh.

karnalIroh
02-05-2021, 03:09 AM
Speedy Singh.

singh is king

aaronbee2010
02-05-2021, 01:31 PM
Speedy Singh.

G O T T A
S I N G H
F A S T

https://i.gyazo.com/4a07068596ee930380673536efb1f074.png

MonkeyDLuffy
02-05-2021, 01:41 PM
G O T T A
S I N G H
F A S T

https://i.gyazo.com/4a07068596ee930380673536efb1f074.png

Me when langar sewa is short on volunteers.

karnalIroh
02-09-2021, 02:32 AM
was wondering if we have any pakistani mughal samples

MonkeyDLuffy
02-09-2021, 11:20 AM
was wondering if we have any pakistani mughal samples

I have posted some, not different from their Sikh/Hindu counterpart. The unmixed ones.

deuterium_1
02-09-2021, 04:24 PM
I have posted some, not different from their Sikh/Hindu counterpart. The unmixed ones.

They were Tarkhans basically?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-09-2021, 04:33 PM
They were Tarkhans basically?

Yup, but these kits were provided by their relative. So they're confirmed Tarkhans with tarkhan clan name, just use "mughal" and "Baig" as surnames now.

deuterium_1
02-09-2021, 06:00 PM
Yup, but these kits were provided by their relative. So they're confirmed Tarkhans with tarkhan clan name, just use "mughal" and "Baig" as surnames now.

I am guessing that a lot of the Baigs here in the UK are also of Tarkhan origin too.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-09-2021, 06:44 PM
I am guessing that a lot of the Baigs here in the UK are also of Tarkhan origin too.

It's a possibility. But it's hard to confirm since a lot of them have completely forgot their biradari and legit believe they're Baigs/Mughals.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-09-2021, 11:17 PM
I am guessing that a lot of the Baigs here in the UK are also of Tarkhan origin too.

There is a baig sample that closely matches with other Tarkhans/Ramgarhias:

Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.55
2 S-Indian 31.11
3 NE-Euro 11.86
4 Caucasian 11.52
5 Siberian 1.94
6 SW-Asian 1.19
7 Beringian 0.98
8 Papuan 0.76
9 American 0.75
10 NE-Asian 0.35


On the lower end of SI for Tarkhans, but within range.

pegasus
02-09-2021, 11:57 PM
Yup, but these kits were provided by their relative. So they're confirmed Tarkhans with tarkhan clan name, just use "mughal" and "Baig" as surnames now.

I assume the same would apply to "Chughtai" because the one person I met with this surname said they are related to "Mughal"

Chagger-->Chughtai

MonkeyDLuffy
02-10-2021, 12:11 AM
I assume the same would apply to "Chughtai" because the one person I met with this surname said they are related to "Mughal"

Chagger-->Chughtai

While Chughtai might be used by Muslim Tarkhans, and it seems so based on quick search, I doubt Chagger became Chugtai.

desi
02-10-2021, 12:16 AM
Could it be that carpenters were upheld by the Mughals and that's why many Muslim Tarkhans took on their surnames? Even the word "Tarkhan" is of Turkic origin and was not the original word used for carpenters in the history of India. Usually it was "rathakara" or "takṣan".

MonkeyDLuffy
02-10-2021, 12:18 AM
Could it be that carpenters were upheld by the Mughals and that's why many Muslim Tarkhans took on their surnames? Even the word "Tarkhan" is of Turkic origin and was not the original word used for carpenters in the history of India. Usually it was "rathakara" or "takṣan".

Never heard the term Rathakara, but Tarkhan seem to be bastardised version of "Darkhan" or "Dar-kar". Dar comes from "Darkht", means tree.

desi
02-10-2021, 12:33 AM
Never heard the term Rathakara, but Tarkhan seem to be bastardised version of "Darkhan" or "Dar-kar". Dar comes from "Darkht", means tree.

Interestingly also a Central Asian word:


Its more related to Mongolian term дархан (darkhan) meaning the craftsman who works with the wood from a tree (Darakht)

pegasus
02-10-2021, 12:36 AM
While Chughtai might be used by Muslim Tarkhans, and it seems so based on quick search, I doubt Chagger became Chugtai.

Baig seems pretty common though.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-10-2021, 12:39 AM
Interestingly also a Central Asian word:

I have always speculated there was some absorption of Central asian folks in the biradari. Some Tarkhans results do show the traces of such mixture. Be it elevated Siberian or NE asian.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-10-2021, 12:39 AM
Baig seems pretty common though.

Did you notice any "Brahmin" connection of Tarkhans on G25?

desi
02-10-2021, 12:45 AM
I have always speculated there was some absorption of Central asian folks in the biradari. Some Tarkhans results do show the traces of such mixture. Be it elevated Siberian or NE asian.

Is it actually more elevated than other biraderis? I've never seen a comparison on here it done before.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-10-2021, 12:48 AM
Is it actually more elevated than other biraderis? I've never seen a comparison on here it done before.

Yes, more NE Asian than other Sikhs, and very high Siberian in some kits. Hence Kashmiri-pahari and Kashmiri-Pandit are the top result for majority of us on oracles. I can do the comparison, but the amount of kits I have, it will take long ass time to post an average lol.

Koonger
02-10-2021, 06:03 PM
Any idea about namdhari sect? I have heard that this sect was formed by a tarkhan Bhai ram Singh kuka. Namdhari includes only tarkhans or other Sikh people all merged in and it is casteless? I have seen few namdharis who excels in their area of work, business or agriculture, animal husbandry..though they are less in numbers

MonkeyDLuffy
02-10-2021, 06:16 PM
Any idea about namdhari sect? I have heard that this sect was formed by a tarkhan Bhai ram Singh kuka. Namdhari includes only tarkhans or other Sikh people all merged in and it is casteless? I have seen few namdharis who excels in their area of work, business or agriculture, animal husbandry..though they are less in numbers

Namdhari or Kukas are overwhelmingly Tarkhans and mostly concentrated in Ludhiana/Jagraon area. There are namdharis of other biradaris too, just not in majority. I have sample of 1 namdhari, he's Tarkhan from both sides.

Jatt1
02-11-2021, 06:53 AM
Any idea about namdhari sect? I have heard that this sect was formed by a tarkhan Bhai ram Singh kuka. Namdhari includes only tarkhans or other Sikh people all merged in and it is casteless? I have seen few namdharis who excels in their area of work, business or agriculture, animal husbandry..though they are less in numbers

Their leader was a Jatt in the beginning, don't know anything about their present leader. They also have presence in UP.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-11-2021, 03:26 PM
Their leader was a Jatt in the beginning, don't know anything about their present leader. They also have presence in UP.

Satguru ram singh was Jatt? After Guru Gobind Singh ji, Sri Balak Singh ji branched off into namdhari sect, who was Batra Arora Sikh. After him Satguru Ram Singh became the 12th guru of sect and he was Tarkhan. Which beginning leader was jatt? Couldn't find any info on it.

Koonger
02-11-2021, 05:12 PM
Satguru ram singh was Jatt? After Guru Gobind Singh ji, Sri Balak Singh ji branched off into namdhari sect, who was Batra Arora Sikh. After him Satguru Ram Singh became the 12th guru of sect and he was Tarkhan. Which beginning leader was jatt? Couldn't find any info on it.

Namdharis are known for kuka rebellion against British and more than 60 namdharis laid down their life opposing cow butchering. I found this info about namdharis demographic profile. Jatts and ramgarhia dominate in numbers in namdhari sect. Bhai ram Singh kuka was most probably a tatkhan.
"The Namdhari Sikhs form a small religious community in Punjab. Outside
Punjab, they are microscopic in Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Delhi
and Uttar Pradesh. Outside India, hundreds of their families have settled in
Thailand, Australia, African countries, USA, Canada and England since the
beginning of Punjabi diaspora in late nineteenth century. In and outside
Punjab, they belong to agriculturist, artisan and menial castes. At present, more
than half of the Namdhari following in Punjab belong to the agriculturist
castes: Jats, Sainis, Rajputs and Kambojs. The artisans comprise Ramgarhias,
Parjapats, Chhembas, Suniaras, Nais, Julahas, Mehras and
Ramdasias/Mazhabis. There is marginal but important segment of Aroras and
Khatris whereas the Brahmins and Banias are exceptions.
This demographic status is the result of the response of the various Sikh
occupational castes since late 19th century. During this period, the Jat Sikhs responded to the mission of Namdhari Guru Ram Singh in a big way and their
rate of conversion was 32% but in due course of time, this rate declined to
14% whereas the rate of conversion of the Ramgarhia Sikhs doubled i.e. from
12 to 22%. Nevertheless, throughout the period, the Jat and Ramgarhia castes
maintained their numerical hegemony. The Namdhari agriculturists and
artisans, by and large, belonged to the deprived section of the agrarian society
of Punjab. This can be inferred from the police list of influential Kukas which
states that the Kuka converts came from the ‘poor Jat Sikh cultivators,
Tarkhans, Chamars and Mazhabis’.
9 Nevertheless, the police report does not
refer to the Kuka converts from the ‘minor’ agriculturist castes like Saini,
Rajput and Kamboj. Similarly, it does not enlist the converts from Arora,
Khatri and Bania castes. In the Census Report of 1881 and District Gazetteers
of Rawalpindi and Ludhiana, we find references to the prominent Kukas of
mercantile as well as minor agriculturist castes. For instance, the founder of
Namdhari mission was Baba Balak Singh, who was Arora by caste. His
followers too were Aroras and Khatris. The prominent among them was Suba
Gurcharan Singh (Arora) who ‘travelled all over Afghanistan, visiting
Kandhar, Ghazni, Bokhara and Kabul, and met with considerable proselytizing
success amongst Aroras and Suniars’. Another prominent Namdhari Arora was
Bhai Kahn Singh who was nephew of Namdhari Guru Balak Singh. Among
the Namdhari Khatris were Baba Jagat Singh, Baba Kanhiya Singh, Suba
Kartar Singh Bedi, Sodhi Hira Singh and Sardar Lehna Singh.10
Majority of the agriculturists under the colonial rule suffered in terms of
mortgaging their landholdings to the sahukars (moneylanders) for paying land
revenue in cash and meeting their social requirements. Consequently, the
Namdhari agriculturists too (like their counterparts) went under debt. They
further suffered from the agrarian legislation of the colonial rulers. Similarly,
the artisan and menial castes were too victims of this legislation. Moreover,
both agriculturists and non-agriculturalists were victims of social evils,
customs of sati (a ritual of wife-burning on husband’s pyre), female infanticide
and dowry. As we shall note, Namdhari Guru Ram Singh and his successors
addressed to the socio-economic problems of their followers belonging to
these occupational castes. However, effects of colonial agrarian legislation on
these followers were primary factors which determined the rate of their
conversion to the Namdhari mission. As a result, their numerical strength, as
noted above, varied from time to time.
The partition of Punjab in 1947 radically transformed the demography of
the Namdhari community. Thousands of Namdhari agriculturists and artisans
were forced to quit their native villages and towns of the West Punjab
(Pakistan) and migrate and resettle in the villages and towns of the East Punjab
(India). More than 80% of the Namdhari migrants came from District Sialkot.
The patterns of their migration and settlement were not different from their
counterparts- Hindus and Sikhs. They were victims of communal violence,
financial and physical hardships. However, it was Namdhari Guru Partap
Singh who played an important role in the processes of resettlement of these
migrants. He purchased thousands of acres of land in the present District of Sirsa (Haryana), developed a headquarters known as Jiwan Nagar, got special
permission from the then Rehabilitation Commissioner to allow Namdhari
migrants to settle there and distributed landholdings to the agriculturists as
well as artisans. Similarly, he distributed landholdings to his followers in Bir
Bhamarsi, District Patiala. He also prevailed upon the then ruler of Mandi
town (Himachal Pardesh) to allow his followers, mostly Khatri and Aroras, to
stay in this town permanently. Similarly, he prevailed upon the Deputy
Commissioner of Kapurthala to assign small plots in Bhulath for his migrant
followers. Nevertheless, the resettlement of the Namdhari agriculturists in the
Districts of Hoshiarpur, Gurdaspur, Kapurthala, Fatehgarh Sahib and
Ferozepur was motivated by the spirit of bhaichara and availability of
agriculture land. The official policy of group-settlement was too
complimentary to their pattern of rehabilitation.11 Similarly, the pattern of
resettlement of migrant artisan families was marked by the spirit of bhaichara
(caste brotherhood) religious brotherhood and availability of sources of
livelihood. They were helped by their relatives and gurbhais (co-religionists)
who lived in the urban centres of the East Punjab. Moreover, the official policy
of building camps and towns for these migrant families helped the migrant
Namdhari families to come together and live in the same localities. Preet
Nagar in Jalandhar city is an example of this pattern of re-settlement. "

deuterium_1
02-11-2021, 05:18 PM
Namdharis are known for kuka rebellion against British and more than 60 namdharis laid down their life opposing cow butchering. I found this info about namdharis demographic profile. Jatts and ramgarhia dominate in numbers in namdhari sect. Bhai ram Singh kuka was most probably a tatkhan.
"The Namdhari Sikhs form a small religious community in Punjab. Outside
Punjab, they are microscopic in Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Delhi
and Uttar Pradesh. Outside India, hundreds of their families have settled in
Thailand, Australia, African countries, USA, Canada and England since the
beginning of Punjabi diaspora in late nineteenth century. In and outside
Punjab, they belong to agriculturist, artisan and menial castes. At present, more
than half of the Namdhari following in Punjab belong to the agriculturist
castes: Jats, Sainis, Rajputs and Kambojs. The artisans comprise Ramgarhias,
Parjapats, Chhembas, Suniaras, Nais, Julahas, Mehras and
Ramdasias/Mazhabis. There is marginal but important segment of Aroras and
Khatris whereas the Brahmins and Banias are exceptions.
This demographic status is the result of the response of the various Sikh
occupational castes since late 19th century. During this period, the Jat Sikhs responded to the mission of Namdhari Guru Ram Singh in a big way and their
rate of conversion was 32% but in due course of time, this rate declined to
14% whereas the rate of conversion of the Ramgarhia Sikhs doubled i.e. from
12 to 22%. Nevertheless, throughout the period, the Jat and Ramgarhia castes
maintained their numerical hegemony. The Namdhari agriculturists and
artisans, by and large, belonged to the deprived section of the agrarian society
of Punjab. This can be inferred from the police list of influential Kukas which
states that the Kuka converts came from the ‘poor Jat Sikh cultivators,
Tarkhans, Chamars and Mazhabis’.
9 Nevertheless, the police report does not
refer to the Kuka converts from the ‘minor’ agriculturist castes like Saini,
Rajput and Kamboj. Similarly, it does not enlist the converts from Arora,
Khatri and Bania castes. In the Census Report of 1881 and District Gazetteers
of Rawalpindi and Ludhiana, we find references to the prominent Kukas of
mercantile as well as minor agriculturist castes. For instance, the founder of
Namdhari mission was Baba Balak Singh, who was Arora by caste. His
followers too were Aroras and Khatris. The prominent among them was Suba
Gurcharan Singh (Arora) who ‘travelled all over Afghanistan, visiting
Kandhar, Ghazni, Bokhara and Kabul, and met with considerable proselytizing
success amongst Aroras and Suniars’. Another prominent Namdhari Arora was
Bhai Kahn Singh who was nephew of Namdhari Guru Balak Singh. Among
the Namdhari Khatris were Baba Jagat Singh, Baba Kanhiya Singh, Suba
Kartar Singh Bedi, Sodhi Hira Singh and Sardar Lehna Singh.10
Majority of the agriculturists under the colonial rule suffered in terms of
mortgaging their landholdings to the sahukars (moneylanders) for paying land
revenue in cash and meeting their social requirements. Consequently, the
Namdhari agriculturists too (like their counterparts) went under debt. They
further suffered from the agrarian legislation of the colonial rulers. Similarly,
the artisan and menial castes were too victims of this legislation. Moreover,
both agriculturists and non-agriculturalists were victims of social evils,
customs of sati (a ritual of wife-burning on husband’s pyre), female infanticide
and dowry. As we shall note, Namdhari Guru Ram Singh and his successors
addressed to the socio-economic problems of their followers belonging to
these occupational castes. However, effects of colonial agrarian legislation on
these followers were primary factors which determined the rate of their
conversion to the Namdhari mission. As a result, their numerical strength, as
noted above, varied from time to time.
The partition of Punjab in 1947 radically transformed the demography of
the Namdhari community. Thousands of Namdhari agriculturists and artisans
were forced to quit their native villages and towns of the West Punjab
(Pakistan) and migrate and resettle in the villages and towns of the East Punjab
(India). More than 80% of the Namdhari migrants came from District Sialkot.
The patterns of their migration and settlement were not different from their
counterparts- Hindus and Sikhs. They were victims of communal violence,
financial and physical hardships. However, it was Namdhari Guru Partap
Singh who played an important role in the processes of resettlement of these
migrants. He purchased thousands of acres of land in the present District of Sirsa (Haryana), developed a headquarters known as Jiwan Nagar, got special
permission from the then Rehabilitation Commissioner to allow Namdhari
migrants to settle there and distributed landholdings to the agriculturists as
well as artisans. Similarly, he distributed landholdings to his followers in Bir
Bhamarsi, District Patiala. He also prevailed upon the then ruler of Mandi
town (Himachal Pardesh) to allow his followers, mostly Khatri and Aroras, to
stay in this town permanently. Similarly, he prevailed upon the Deputy
Commissioner of Kapurthala to assign small plots in Bhulath for his migrant
followers. Nevertheless, the resettlement of the Namdhari agriculturists in the
Districts of Hoshiarpur, Gurdaspur, Kapurthala, Fatehgarh Sahib and
Ferozepur was motivated by the spirit of bhaichara and availability of
agriculture land. The official policy of group-settlement was too
complimentary to their pattern of rehabilitation.11 Similarly, the pattern of
resettlement of migrant artisan families was marked by the spirit of bhaichara
(caste brotherhood) religious brotherhood and availability of sources of
livelihood. They were helped by their relatives and gurbhais (co-religionists)
who lived in the urban centres of the East Punjab. Moreover, the official policy
of building camps and towns for these migrant families helped the migrant
Namdhari families to come together and live in the same localities. Preet
Nagar in Jalandhar city is an example of this pattern of re-settlement. "

I visited a Namdari Gurdwara here in the UK in the 1990s, I remember that they all wore white.

Aren't they considered a fringe movement within Sikhism?.

Koonger
02-11-2021, 05:22 PM
I visited a Namdari Gurdwara here in the UK in the 1990s, I remember that they all wore white.

Aren't they considered a fringe movement within Sikhism?.

Yes, I have also seen them always in white turbans. For another query jatt1, monkeydluffy and laltota can reply better . You seem correct to some extent.
PDF attached.
"
The militant movement in the last quarter of twentieth century became a
major catalyst of rural to urban migration. The people, irrespective of their
caste and creed affiliations, lived under the dread of terrorists when they
indulged in threats, abductions, extortions and rapes. Situation took the worst
turn when the leaders of terrorist outfits vied with one another to glorify their
so called achievements. The quick way of self-adulation was sought through
the infliction of punishment to the mukhbars (informers) and dokhis (enemies)
of the Panth and Khalistan. For the Khalistanis, the Namdhari Sikhs like the
Nirankaris were too Panth dokhis (enemies of the community) as they
indulged in manmat (self-orientation) and worshiped dehdhari guru (embodied
guru) and performed ardas (supplication) in the name of twelfth guru. Several
Namdhari mahants (priests) and leaders (subas and pardhans) became victims"


43224

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2021, 02:59 PM
2 more Tarkhans with T Y haplo appeared in DNA relatives.

1 is T-Z709, 1 is T-L446. So in total 9% of Tarkhans have T Ydna so far.

desi
02-13-2021, 07:23 PM
2 more Tarkhans with T Y haplo appeared in DNA relatives.

1 is T-Z709, 1 is T-L446. So in total 9% of Tarkhans have T Ydna so far.

How did T come into South Asia?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2021, 07:29 PM
How did T come into South Asia?

It is a BMAC Haplogroup from what I've heard. But Tarkhans have pretty much all major lines of T amongst them, just not 1. I've asked some people to look into it.

Jatt1
02-14-2021, 03:25 AM
It is a BMAC Haplogroup from what I've heard. But Tarkhans have pretty much all major lines of T amongst them, just not 1. I've asked some people to look into it.

It is early farmers haplogroup, I guess, along with E, G and J2.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-14-2021, 03:28 AM
It is early farmers haplogroup, I guess, along with E, G and J2.

Did they find different Clades of T in IVC?

Jatt1
02-14-2021, 03:32 AM
Did they find different Clades of T in IVC?

Don't know, but T is from fertile crescent as you mentioned to BMAC.

Koonger
02-14-2021, 05:25 AM
Don't know, but T is from fertile crescent as you mentioned to BMAC.
It is a West Asian haplogroup. Related to horn of Africa and nautifian, Spread somewhat similar as E. In ancient samples it is found in ebla and alalakh and Jordan.

Jatt1
02-14-2021, 05:54 AM
It is a West Asian haplogroup. Related to horn of Africa and nautifian, Spread somewhat similar as E. In ancient samples it is found in ebla and alalakh and Jordan.

I think both of them are part of some back migration just like R1b and then back to Fertile Crescent and then off to other places, First Farmers.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-14-2021, 06:07 AM
I think both of them are part of some back migration just like R1b and then back to Fertile Crescent and then off to other places, First Farmers.

E seems to be even more rare that T. The fertile crescent farmer theory makes sense. One of aaronbee's Sindhi friend is also T.

Jatt1
02-14-2021, 06:09 AM
E seems to be even more rare that T. The fertile crescent farmer theory makes sense. One of aaronbee's Sindhi friend is also T.

Could be a part of the Bloch migration too.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-14-2021, 06:14 AM
Could be a part of the Bloch migration too.

I'm not sure if T shows up in Balochs. Aren't they R1a mostly?

Jatt1
02-14-2021, 06:21 AM
I'm not sure if T shows up in Balochs. Aren't they R1a mostly?

I think Bloch have all kinds of Haplogroups, they are not rich in NE Euro even if R1a, but they also have some Kurd element in them plus they are supposed to be from NW Iran and probably went to BMAC and then back to Balochistan. I think you might be right about Baloch though.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2?iframe=yresults

tipirneni
02-14-2021, 04:05 PM
T is big in Andhra among Rajus and Malas. Looks like some ancient African farmer lineage who backmigrated from Levant even long ago

davit
02-14-2021, 04:20 PM
T is big in Andhra among Rajus and Malas. Looks like some ancient African farmer lineage who backmigrated from Levant even long ago

Interesting. What makes T an ancient African farmer lineage?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-14-2021, 04:43 PM
T is big in Andhra among Rajus and Malas. Looks like some ancient African farmer lineage who backmigrated from Levant even long ago

Can you post the study where T is high amongst Rajus and Malas. Also if it's possible the clades as well. I'm curious about the haplo.

ThaYamamoto
02-14-2021, 05:11 PM
T in this context is just from the East-Iran/Irano-Indic HGs. When they pop up and get sequenced T will be in there.

tipirneni
02-14-2021, 05:33 PM
Interesting. What makes T an ancient African farmer lineage?

It is a levant farmer lineage that migrated to Somalia and Bantus.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/50938316_Increased_Resolution_of_Y_Chromosome_Hapl ogroup_T_Defines_Relationships_among_Populations_o f_the_Near_East_Europe_and_Africa

In our sample of 34 Lemba, we found six chromosomes (17.6%) thatbelong to T1b-L131* (Figure 2). Chromosomes in this cluster share a recentcommon ancestor at about 5.5 Ky based on Td, which may reflect a recentfounder effect. This result is similar to the estimate of an expansion time of 3.3kya based on a sample of T chromosomes found at a frequency of 10% in aSomalia (Sanchez et al. 2005). The hypothesis that contemporary Lemba trace toan ancient Jewish population predicts that their Y chromosomes cluster withJewish haplotypes. However, Jewish and Lemba T chromosomes tend to fall intodifferent subclades (T1a and T1b, respectively), and STR data show that theclosest relationship of Lemba T chromosomes is with a Turk (Figure 2). Ofcourse, it is possible that Y chromosomal lineages that became prevalent inLemba went extinct in current Jewish populations, or are at low frequency andhave not been sampled

ThaYamamoto
02-14-2021, 05:38 PM
It is a levant farmer lineage that migrated to Somalia and Bantus.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/50938316_Increased_Resolution_of_Y_Chromosome_Hapl ogroup_T_Defines_Relationships_among_Populations_o f_the_Near_East_Europe_and_Africa

In our sample of 34 Lemba, we found six chromosomes (17.6%) thatbelong to T1b-L131* (Figure 2). Chromosomes in this cluster share a recentcommon ancestor at about 5.5 Ky based on Td, which may reflect a recentfounder effect. This result is similar to the estimate of an expansion time of 3.3kya based on a sample of T chromosomes found at a frequency of 10% in aSomalia (Sanchez et al. 2005). The hypothesis that contemporary Lemba trace toan ancient Jewish population predicts that their Y chromosomes cluster withJewish haplotypes. However, Jewish and Lemba T chromosomes tend to fall intodifferent subclades (T1a and T1b, respectively), and STR data show that theclosest relationship of Lemba T chromosomes is with a Turk (Figure 2). Ofcourse, it is possible that Y chromosomal lineages that became prevalent inLemba went extinct in current Jewish populations, or are at low frequency andhave not been sampled

Lemba have ancestry from Swahili-Arab traders, not from Jews or from a back-migration. Their origin myth is Jewish but it isn't true.

tipirneni
02-14-2021, 05:39 PM
Can you post the study where T is high amongst Rajus and Malas. Also if it's possible the clades as well. I'm curious about the haplo.

Some of it showed up in one of the published studies but there is not much interest to do further in-depth study.

tipirneni
02-14-2021, 05:40 PM
Lemba have ancestry from Swahili-Arab traders, not from Jews or from a back-migration. Their origin myth is Jewish but it isn't true.

what about Somalis, Ethiopians, Libyans etc...

ThaYamamoto
02-14-2021, 05:42 PM
what about Somalis, Ethiopians, Libyans etc...

Of course, but Horn of Africans, their ethnogenesis and uniparental lineages have nothing to do with Bantu peoples. The Lemba are just a case of an origin myth supported by coincidental mixing with Swahili-traders but on further investigation is nonsensical typical of origin mythos.

tipirneni
02-14-2021, 05:48 PM
Of course, but Horn of Africans, their ethnogenesis and uniparental lineages have nothing to do with Bantu peoples. The Lemba are just a case of an origin myth supported by coincidental mixing with Swahili-traders but on further investigation is nonsensical typical of origin mythos.

True, but those lineage of Lemba might have disaappeared in Levant over time. However T-M70 and downstream is has Horners and north africans. The further branches down there you find Middleeasterners and Andhras

ThaYamamoto
02-14-2021, 05:57 PM
True, but those lineage of Lemba might have disaappeared in Levant over time. However T-M70 and downstream is has Horners and north africans. The further branches down there you find Middleeasterners and Andhras

Yeah its very interesting regardless. I see a Kuwati sharing a branch with IND-Andhra on yfull. Wouldn't this further support it being present in the mesolithic Irano-Indic HGs?

tipirneni
02-14-2021, 07:28 PM
Yeah its very interesting regardless. I see a Kuwati sharing a branch with IND-Andhra on yfull. Wouldn't this further support it being present in the mesolithic Irano-Indic HGs?

Based on high presence in Yerukula tribe (kurru or kuruvar) who cluster differently from other tribes it was said that haplogroup T is foreign to that region probably induced in one of the migrations
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs41935-019-0132-8/MediaObjects/41935_2019_132_Fig3_HTML.png?as=webp

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321216655_Ethnographic_Profile_of_Yerukula_Tribe_o f_Andhra_Pradesh

ThaYamamoto
02-14-2021, 08:05 PM
Based on high presence in Yerukula tribe (kurru or kuruvar) who cluster differently from other tribes it was said that haplogroup T is foreign to that region probably induced in one of the migrations
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs41935-019-0132-8/MediaObjects/41935_2019_132_Fig3_HTML.png?as=webp

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321216655_Ethnographic_Profile_of_Yerukula_Tribe_o f_Andhra_Pradesh

Where can we find the uniparental information for said groups?