PDA

View Full Version : P314.2 (R1b-L21>DF13>DF21>P314.2)



alan
09-05-2013, 01:24 PM
There has been very little talk of P314.2 on this site. There was an interested group of people which had a great combination of energy and skills involved in this a year or so back but its gone very quiet. There is a yahoo group on this but I think it would be great if we could get some of the people and the info over onto this site. If anyone has date etc that they could paste or link into this thread it would be much appreciated.

The yahoo group is http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RP314Project/info

I have forgoten my login details though

razyn
09-05-2013, 01:36 PM
One of several WF threads about it:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9347.0

alan
09-05-2013, 01:54 PM
Thanks for digging that out. I think on the yahoo group site there are some very nice trees and calculations. Like I said, I have long ago forgotten my login details so I cannot get back in.

The clade is interesting because although there is a fairly tight isles cluster there are also some serious STR outliers on the northern continent who I presume are responsible for a lot of the age of the SNP


One of several WF threads about it:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9347.0

TigerMW
09-06-2013, 02:26 PM
I just invited about 16 people from the old P314.2 yahoo group to this thread.

A key person is Nigel. He did a lot of the work.

You might ask David Reynolds or one of the other admins on the DF21 project to send a broadcast email to the P314.2 subgroup in the project. That is probably the most comprehensive list.

Here is the URL for this thread so you can forward it to people.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1297-P314-2-%28R1b-L21-gt-DF13-gt-DF21-gt-P314-2%29

RobertCasey
09-06-2013, 03:18 PM
Here is the extensive chart that Nigel created around six months ago. With his permission, I included a link to his chart at my web site under my analysis of L362. There is a lot of speculation of the evolution the YSTR mutations, but this is excellent work. The only thing that I could not convince Nigel as an improvement was to add surname cluster nodes into the descendancy chart. The discovery of L362 really helped with this analysis and future YSNP discoveries should firm up these connections. This is one the best attempts to take on the complex task of connecting all submissions under a YSNP that is about as old as can be done (around 1,500 to 2,000 years old):

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/L362&P314.2_Phylogenetic_Tree_20130305.pdf

alan
09-06-2013, 11:22 PM
That great Mike. I just couldnt remember my password and couldnt get back in. That was a good little group of people. You are right there were several great contributors and Nigel was superb.


I just invited about 16 people from the old P314.2 yahoo group to this thread.

A key person is Nigel. He did a lot of the work.

You might ask David Reynolds or one of the other admins on the DF21 project to send a broadcast email to the P314.2 subgroup in the project. That is probably the most comprehensive list.

Here is the URL for this thread so you can forward it to people.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1297-P314-2-%28R1b-L21-gt-DF13-gt-DF21-gt-P314-2%29

McCarthygen
09-09-2013, 09:01 PM
I have just updated the P314.2 tree referenced by others, and have sent a copy to Robert Casey for his site. It is also posted on Skibb Girl's Cork Genealogy site. As it claims copyright it may not be possible to post here but you have the links. I will consider Robert's comments on node points for future updates.

alan
09-09-2013, 09:20 PM
Can anyone link or paste the most up to date interpretations on the dating of P314.2 and its subdivisions?

McCarthygen
09-11-2013, 07:24 PM
Alan,

I have presented a simplistic (and transparent) assessment of dating of P314.2 and its subdivisions at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/McCarthySurnameStudy/default.aspx?section=results. Scroll down to "HAPLOGROUP R - GROUP B: McCARTHYS AND SNPs R-P314.2 AND R-L362" then to: "The timeline derived on the above basis is as follows:" This is based on the tree referenced in previous e-mails of this thread. Note that I suggest SNP P314.2 itself could have occurred at any time during the sequence which includes eight STR mutations. I give this is 1600 B.C to 230 B.C., give or take a century or two. Intuitively, the final date in the sequence offered (1230 A.D.) seems a century or two too late, but is within the suggested limits of accuracy. It may be that a century or more needs to be knocked off first millenium dates, but let's not take it too seriously. It was intended for guidance only!

alan
09-11-2013, 09:15 PM
There were a number of reasons why I did wonder about a Viking connection of some sort. I am not sure I fully understand why that is thought unlikely, given the need to allow wide margins of error in dating etc. I am not saying I think that it is Viking linked, its just I am not clear why this is thought unlikely.


Alan,

I have presented a simplistic (and transparent) assessment of dating of P314.2 and its subdivisions at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/McCarthySurnameStudy/default.aspx?section=results. Scroll down to "HAPLOGROUP R - GROUP B: McCARTHYS AND SNPs R-P314.2 AND R-L362" then to: "The timeline derived on the above basis is as follows:" This is based on the tree referenced in previous e-mails of this thread. Note that I suggest SNP P314.2 itself could have occurred at any time during the sequence which includes eight STR mutations. I give this is 1600 B.C to 230 B.C., give or take a century or two. Intuitively, the final date in the sequence offered (1230 A.D.) seems a century or two too late, but is within the suggested limits of accuracy. It may be that a century or more needs to be knocked off first millenium dates, but let's not take it too seriously. It was intended for guidance only!

Dubhthach
04-23-2014, 10:28 AM
Alan,

You might be interested in Alex Williamson's latest tree it looks like P314.2 and the "Little Scottish Cluster" are united together by a SNP called:
FGC3213

http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html

Now that's a widespread clade!

-Paul
(DF41+)

Williamson
04-23-2014, 12:45 PM
Alan,

You might be interested in Alex Williamson's latest tree it looks like P314.2 and the "Little Scottish Cluster" are united together by a SNP called:
FGC3213

http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html

Now that's a widespread clade!

-Paul
(DF41+)

I'd like to add that FGC3213 is one of those SNPs that isn't tested well by the Big Y. It was found in my FGC test, and has so far only shown up in some of the LSC men, and in Leahy's (P314.2) Big Y results. I haven't seen any BAM files yet from the P314.2 men to help validate this. If one of the P314.2 men was interested, this might be a good SNP to order from the Father's day sale at YSEQ. It is available there, and currently on sale for just $25.

Alex
Little Scottish Cluster (R-S190)

alan
04-23-2014, 01:25 PM
Can I ask what YSEQ and BAM stands for. Sorry for my ignorance on this.


I'd like to add that FGC3213 is one of those SNPs that isn't tested well by the Big Y. It was found in my FGC test, and has so far only shown up in some of the LSC men, and in Leahy's (P314.2) Big Y results. I haven't seen any BAM files yet from the P314.2 men to help validate this. If one of the P314.2 men was interested, this might be a good SNP to order from the Father's day sale at YSEQ. It is available there, and currently on sale for just $25.

Alex
Little Scottish Cluster (R-S190)

Dubhthach
04-23-2014, 01:30 PM
Can I ask what YSEQ and BAM stands for. Sorry for my ignorance on this.

BAM = Binary Alignment Map

When you do a NGC test (FGC or BigY) you can request your BAM file which is the raw results.

YSEQ = http://www.yseq.net/

Thomas Krahn's new DNA testing company. He's quite quick on developing new primers etc. for some of new SNP's found in NGS tests.

-Paul
(DF41+)

alan
04-23-2014, 01:36 PM
Thanks! That is very interesting. I dont know much about the LSC but P314.2, although more common in western Ireland, there is a noticeable minority of Scots from the west Highlands and islands. So, there is already some kind of Scottish connection even within P314.2. A link between LSC and P314.2 again shows some sort of link with Scotland. In which direction though?


Alan,

You might be interested in Alex Williamson's latest tree it looks like P314.2 and the "Little Scottish Cluster" are united together by a SNP called:
FGC3213

http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html

Now that's a widespread clade!

-Paul
(DF41+)

alan
04-23-2014, 01:57 PM
So is the table implying that only one SNP - FGC3213 - lies between DF21 upstream and P314.2 and S424 downstream or is it just implying this is the one shared SNP?

alan
04-23-2014, 02:05 PM
So is the table implying that only one SNP - FGC3213 - lies between DF21 upstream and P314.2 and S424 downstream or is it just implying this is the one shared SNP?

alan
04-23-2014, 02:09 PM
All my previous SNP test (not done one for years) was with FTDNA. If I was to do this with YSEQ would I need to send another DNA sample?


BAM = Binary Alignment Map

When you do a NGC test (FGC or BigY) you can request your BAM file which is the raw results.

YSEQ = http://www.yseq.net/

Thomas Krahn's new DNA testing company. He's quite quick on developing new primers etc. for some of new SNP's found in NGS tests.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
04-23-2014, 02:34 PM
All my previous SNP test (not done one for years) was with FTDNA. If I was to do this with YSEQ would I need to send another DNA sample?

That would indeed be the case. I believe though that FTDNA might be announcing something this Friday, I've seen some email on discussion lists about an update ytree. Yseq have some nice packages, they have a bundle of all the M222 related SNP's found in Chromo2 for example (something on order of 25 snp's for about $350). They have a sale price of $25 a snp at moment, I believe FTDNA are announcing a 20% off SNP sale in next couple days as well.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Dubhthach
04-23-2014, 02:37 PM
So is the table implying that only one SNP - FGC3213 - lies between DF21 upstream and P314.2 and S424 downstream or is it just implying this is the one shared SNP?

Going on the data in Alex tree it looks like, FGC3213 marks a subclade directly underneath DF21 (one step down). This clade is divided in turn into P314.2 and S3058.

Under S3058 you have the "Little Scots cluster" defined by several SNP's one of which is S424.

Basically:

DF21 -> FGC3213 -> P314.2
vs.
DF21 -> FGC3213 -> S3058 -> S424

-Paul
(DF41+)

alan
04-23-2014, 03:00 PM
Is DF21 directly below DF13? I am just trying to get my head straight about the likely age of these SNPs.


Going on the data in Alex tree it looks like, FGC3213 marks a subclade directly underneath DF21 (one step down). This clade is divided in turn into P314.2 and S3058.

Under S3058 you have the "Little Scots cluster" defined by several SNP's one of which is S424.

Basically:

DF21 -> FGC3213 -> P314.2
vs.
DF21 -> FGC3213 -> S3058 -> S424

-Paul
(DF41+)

nc.irish
04-23-2014, 03:49 PM
The results for Leahy found on line 31608 in the variants vcf.xlsx file are:
#CHROM POS ID REF ALT QUAL FILTER INFO FORMAT 3465672e- ~ ~
chrY 26722140 . A C 99.4176 REJECTED . GT 0/1

So Big Y has found the FGC3213 SNP at position 26722140 where A>C , but rejected it because of “poor” quality; Qual=99.4176.
Inclined to wait for the third P314.2 test (Porter) to see how he tests.
Jim

Dubhthach
04-23-2014, 04:06 PM
Is DF21 directly below DF13? I am just trying to get my head straight about the likely age of these SNPs.

As far as we know yes, no SNP has been discovered let that unites DF21 with another one of major DF13 subclades.

alan
04-26-2014, 12:13 PM
So, as the evidence stands DF21 would seem close in age to DF13 and L21. P314.2 line is only 2 SNPs below DF21. That would imply that P314.2's line was only the third SNP below DF13 in its line, 4th below L21 and 5th below P312.

In some of the discussions on average intervals between SNPs figures between about 80 and 200 years seemed to be the main ones considered. I tend to favour spans of approaching 150 years per SNP based on discussions - the lowest end suggestions for average SNP interval doesnt seem compatible for a beaker origin for pan European P312 'all' IMO. Such a correlation between P312 and beaker cannot place place P312 much younger than

However, a lot seem to depend on which SNPs are counted and which are rejected as the SNP count for modern individuals in the L21 subclades seems to be interpreted as averaging anywhere between 30 and 40.

So if P312 dated to 3000-2600BC P314.2 would be about 6 SNPs below indicting in the period c. 600-900 years after P312 and therefore most likely dating to c. 2400- 1700BC - IMO probably towards the more younger end of the scale is more likely.


As far as we know yes, no SNP has been discovered let that unites DF21 with another one of major DF13 subclades.

nc.irish
05-02-2014, 11:40 AM
SNPs above and below P314.2
1. The Porter N28007 BIG Y results confirm that FGC3213 is above P314.2. This was a questionable call in the other two P314.2 BIG Y results: Kennedy 169021 and Leahy 207157. P314.2 and the Little Scottish Cluster do appear to have FGC3213 in common.
2. All three BIG Y results have 3545203 G>C {or Z1654 ??} as positive below P314.2 and above all of the shared SNP's for Kennedy and Leahy, and also above Porters SNP's.
Nigel looks like your Group B Tree may have a new SNP in parallel with L362.
Waiting to see how Alex shows this in The Big Tree.
Jim

rms2
05-02-2014, 11:58 AM
As an aside, I want to say that I like FTDNA's decision to drop the decimal point in reference to SNPs like P314.2, which FTDNA now calls simply "P314".

It is pretty obvious, after all, which P314 one is talking about in the context of R1b and DF21, so the decimal point really isn't necessary.

McCarthygen
06-16-2014, 06:10 PM
SNP P314.2 defines one of the branches of the DF21 tree. I maintain a tree for this - until recently based almost entirely on STR results - at http://tinyurl.com/McCarthyScrapbook (see the detailed tree under Group B). Up until Big Y testing the only known subclade under P314.2 was that defined by SNP L362. Many in this latter subclade are McCarthys (it accounts for 28% of all McCarthys, thus my interest, although I am not one of them).

During the first round of Big Y testing three P314.2 +ve, L362 -ve kits tested, and results are consistent with the established tree. One of these belongs to Jim Leahy, and Jim and I have been working together to promote further testing to build on the development of the tree.

We are now aware that the following kits have tested for Big Y. If your kit is on this tree and you have tested Big Y (or FGC) would you kindly keep Jim and I informed so that we can coordinate and share with you analysis of data?

140297 Lyons
169021 Kennedy
207157 Leahy
N28007 Porter
10119 McCarthy
177666 McCarthy
222616 McCarthy

We would also love to see some Big Y testing by a participant or two in the Kelley / Sullivan / Peck group (in the bottom left hand corner) and in L362 -ve groups other than that labelled "Munster Branch 3?".

Nigel McCarthy
Administrator, McCarthy Surname Study

Reith
08-06-2014, 09:48 PM
With me being positive for DF21 and "pre 314.2", could I test FGC3213?