PDA

View Full Version : South Asian Genotype Project - Razib Khan



Sapporo
01-02-2018, 12:02 PM
Razib Khan, well known for his South Asian genome blogging in the past, has recently started the South Asian Genotype Project to sort of take over Zack's Harappa Project which he has now put aside completely.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/12/02/south-asian-genotype-project/


Looks like he is starting from scratch and not sure as of right now how dedicated he will be to it. Here are his spreadsheet results (both group averages + individual participants) for his first calculator:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=1109543936


If you want to add yourself to the project, follow these rules:

The way it works is simple: send me a 23andMe, Ancestry, or Family Tree DNA raw genotype file to contactgnxp -at- gmail.com (though 23andMe’s new chip has far less overlap with other platforms earlier, so probably best if you were typed before August 2017).

In the subject please put:

“South Asian Genotype Project”
The state/province your family is from
Ethnolinguistic group
If applicable, caste
In the body of the email you can put Y and mtDNA and any other information you want. Obviously your data is confidential and I won’t identify you by name, just ethnolinguistic group and such

I haven't sent him my data yet as I feel like waiting until his calculators are more fine tuned. Especially, since the "Punjabi Jatt" sample he has is scoring the following:

23% Armenian
35% Belorussian
1% Dai
41% NW Indian

It's not even remotely similar to the other NW South Asian project participants he has so far.

:confused:

bmoney
01-02-2018, 12:23 PM
Razib Khan, well known for his South Asian genome blogging in the past, has recently started the South Asian Genotype Project to sort of take over Zack's Harappa Project which he has now put aside completely.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/12/02/south-asian-genotype-project/


Looks like he is starting from scratch and not sure as of right now how dedicated he will be to it. Here are his spreadsheet results (both group averages + individual participants) for his first calculator:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=1109543936


If you want to add yourself to the project, follow these rules:

The way it works is simple: send me a 23andMe, Ancestry, or Family Tree DNA raw genotype file to contactgnxp -at- gmail.com (though 23andMe’s new chip has far less overlap with other platforms earlier, so probably best if you were typed before August 2017).

In the subject please put:

“South Asian Genotype Project”
The state/province your family is from
Ethnolinguistic group
If applicable, caste
In the body of the email you can put Y and mtDNA and any other information you want. Obviously your data is confidential and I won’t identify you by name, just ethnolinguistic group and such

I haven't sent him my data yet as I feel like waiting until his calculators are more fine tuned. Especially, since the "Punjabi Jatt" sample he has is scoring the following:

23% Armenian
35% Belorussian
1% Dai
41% NW Indian

It's not even remotely similar to the other NW South Asian project participants he has so far.

:confused:

ive sent him my kit - interested in what he finds

Reza
01-02-2018, 03:32 PM
I sent him my family data which he ran in the first calculator.

The Punjabi Jatt results really did stand out as very odd - I think he said himself that he didn't think the components were very robust yet.

He said he'd have another look at the calculator over the holiday period.

Will definitely be interesting to see his take on matters.

Who knows how different it'll all look post the IVC ancient DNA samples..!

MonkeyDLuffy
01-02-2018, 03:55 PM
I'll send him mine today, his selection of components is interesting.

parasar
01-02-2018, 06:58 PM
Razib Khan, well known for his South Asian genome blogging in the past, has recently started the South Asian Genotype Project to sort of take over Zack's Harappa Project which he has now put aside completely.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/12/02/south-asian-genotype-project/


Looks like he is starting from scratch and not sure as of right now how dedicated he will be to it. Here are his spreadsheet results (both group averages + individual participants) for his first calculator:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=1109543936


If you want to add yourself to the project, follow these rules:

The way it works is simple: send me a 23andMe, Ancestry, or Family Tree DNA raw genotype file to contactgnxp -at- gmail.com (though 23andMe’s new chip has far less overlap with other platforms earlier, so probably best if you were typed before August 2017).

In the subject please put:

“South Asian Genotype Project”
The state/province your family is from
Ethnolinguistic group
If applicable, caste
In the body of the email you can put Y and mtDNA and any other information you want. Obviously your data is confidential and I won’t identify you by name, just ethnolinguistic group and such

I haven't sent him my data yet as I feel like waiting until his calculators are more fine tuned. Especially, since the "Punjabi Jatt" sample he has is scoring the following:

23% Armenian
35% Belorussian
1% Dai
41% NW Indian

It's not even remotely similar to the other NW South Asian project participants he has so far.

:confused:

To paraphrase khanabadoshi's quip - as long as it adds up to 100% it's good!

nuplix
01-02-2018, 10:43 PM
I just sent him my data. Thanks!

Sapporo
01-03-2018, 02:36 AM
I just sent him my data. Thanks!

Nice! I might send mine shortly. Still mulling it over.

Reza
01-03-2018, 02:39 AM
Nice! I might send mine shortly. Still mulling it over.

What are you mulling over lol?

bmoney
01-03-2018, 05:07 AM
What are you mulling over lol?

Saps mulling over mulled wine or desi daru, one of the 2

Sapporo
01-03-2018, 12:49 PM
What are you mulling over lol?

Sending over my data when it looks like his calculator still needs a lot of work. 58% combined Belorussian and Armenian for a member of my ethno-linguistic group seems way off.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-03-2018, 01:02 PM
Sending over my data when it looks like his calculator still needs a lot of work. 58% combined Belorussian and Armenian for a member of my ethno-linguistic group seems way off.

It's only possible if the rest of the percentage is some tribal from South India, which doesnt seem like, since the rest percentage is NW Indian which should be a heavy west eurasian sample. I sent him my data btw.

Kaido
01-21-2018, 03:01 PM
Saw my results were updated today (version 2)

Cambodians - 0%
Iranians - 45%
Japanese - 1%
Lithuanians - 10%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 44%
YemeniteJews - 0%

MonkeyDLuffy
01-21-2018, 03:20 PM
Saw my results were updated today (version 2)

Cambodians - 0%
Iranians - 45%
Japanese - 1%
Lithuanians - 10%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 44%
YemeniteJews - 0%

Mine showed up as well:

Cambodians - 0%
Iranians - 27%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 13%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 59%
YemeniteJews - 0%


Also one of that Punjabi jatt is half Euro for sure. He stands out a lot.

parasar
01-21-2018, 05:32 PM
Babhan (Bihar):

Cambodians - 1%
Iranians - 23%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 10%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 65%
YemeniteJews - 0%

MonkeyDLuffy
01-21-2018, 05:57 PM
Babhan (Bihar):

Cambodians - 1%
Iranians - 23%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 10%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 65%
YemeniteJews - 0%

I was wondering who is Bihari Babhan as results are very west shifted. Also I still don't understand the use of Tamil unless we are focusing on Modern admixture rather than ancient.

kush
01-21-2018, 07:15 PM
Wow, I have the second highest tamil percentage after the tamil mudailiar sample. Makes sense I guess but still shocking to see 94% Tamil.

Telugu Reddy 1

Cambodians - 1%
Iranians - 0%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 3%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 94%
YemeniteJews - 3%

MonkeyDLuffy
01-21-2018, 07:16 PM
Wow, I have the second highest tamil percentage after the tamil mudailiar sample. Makes sense I guess but still shocking to see 94% Tamil.

Telugu Reddy 1

Cambodians - 1%
Iranians - 0%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 3%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 94%
YemeniteJews - 3%

I'm more surprised about Yemenite jew tbh.

kush
01-21-2018, 07:23 PM
I'm more surprised about Yemenite jew tbh.

lol yeah true.. Kinda random I feel like. None of y'all have any yemanite jew. Also I have lithuanian but no iranian. First time getting more euro than west asian. It usually doesn't happen on any calculator for me.

bmoney
01-22-2018, 01:26 AM
high_caste_nair_1

Cambodians - 0%
Iranians - 17%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 8%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 75%
YemeniteJews - 0%

bmoney
01-22-2018, 01:27 AM
Wow, I have the second highest tamil percentage after the tamil mudailiar sample. Makes sense I guess but still shocking to see 94% Tamil.

Telugu Reddy 1

Cambodians - 1%
Iranians - 0%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 3%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 94%
YemeniteJews - 3%

The Tamil reference would capture ANI and ASI

Sapporo
01-22-2018, 01:39 AM
I'm going to send Razib my data tonight and also tell him that the Punjabi Jatt is obviously half European if he is scoring 35% Belorussian, 23% Armenian and 40%+ NW Indian. He needs to be relabeled.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-22-2018, 01:45 AM
I'm going to send Razib my data tonight and also tell him that the Punjabi Jatt is obviously half European if he is scoring 35% Belorussian, 23% Armenian and 40%+ NW Indian. He needs to be relabeled.

I'd expect you to be scoring more Iranian, but same euro as me.

bmoney
01-22-2018, 01:52 AM
That Guju Solanki result is baffling - 2% Iran and 87% Tamil

Solanki is a princely Rajput caste - one of the most renowned

Sapporo
01-22-2018, 01:54 AM
That Guju Solanki result is baffling - 2% Iran and 87% Tamil

Solanki is a princely Rajput caste - one of the most renowned

What an interesting result. A few members should you know what I'm alluding to. ;)

Also, Rajput status doesn't seem to much with regards to genetics. For example, Punjabi Rajputs are like other non Rajput Punjabis for the most part. I haven't seen Rajput results from any other regions to suggest Rajput populations have any specific admixture profiles.

poi
01-22-2018, 02:15 AM
The Nepali_brahmin_1 was mine.. sent him my 23andmeV5 although he said the data was not ideal.

@pnb123, you should send your data to Razib for more accurate picture. I will do so when(or if, at this point) I get my FTDNA.

FWIW



Cambodians 0%
Iranians 24%
Japanese 7%
Lithuanians 12%
Papuans 0%
Tamils 57%
YemeniteJews 0%

MonkeyDLuffy
01-22-2018, 02:23 AM
What an interesting result. A few members should you know what I'm alluding to. ;)

Also, Rajput status doesn't seem to much with regards to genetics. For example, Punjabi Rajputs are like other non Rajput Punjabis for the most part. I haven't seen Rajput results from any other regions to suggest Rajput populations have any specific admixture profiles.

Lmao, I have a feeling this Solanki guy is that Gujarati Christian dude from youtube.

Reza
01-22-2018, 02:58 AM
Various results:

Reza


Cambodians 9%
Iranians 3%
Japanese 6%
Lithuanians 7%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 75%
YemeniteJews 0%


Reza Mother


Cambodians 9%
Iranians 8%
Japanese 4%
Lithuanians 6%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 73%
YemeniteJews 0%


Reza Father


Cambodians 8%
Iranians 0%
Japanese 5%
Lithuanians 6%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 81%
YemeniteJews 0%


Reza Wife


Cambodians 4%
Iranians 9%
Japanese 9%
Lithuanians 3%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 74%
YemeniteJews 0%


Reza Maternal Cousin


Cambodians 8%
Iranians 3%
Japanese 5%
Lithuanians 7%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 76%
YemeniteJews 2%


Slightly better run than the previous version.

Agree about the Tamil component being unhelpful - Tamils to Gujaratis to Bengalis scoring >80% into 90s!

The Yemenite Jew is another odd component. To be fair, my cousin is also tested on v5 so may explain that.

Iranian seems to have that West to East cline that's been hinted at in the other thread. Similar to how Caucasian works in the old harappaworld / extra Iran_N outside of Tamil.

parasar
01-22-2018, 03:39 AM
That Guju Solanki result is baffling - 2% Iran and 87% Tamil

Solanki is a princely Rajput caste - one of the most renowned

A proper Solanki line perhaps.
True Solanki = Karnat Chalukya
We also ahave a Kashmir Rathore whose numbers indicate true Karnat Rashtrakut influence.

Sapporo
01-22-2018, 03:48 AM
With such a limited set of reference populations, South Asian members have such uniform results. I can probably predict my own results just using MonkeyDLuffy and poi’s results.

Heir of Gandhara
01-22-2018, 03:58 AM
What an interesting result. A few members should you know what I'm alluding to. ;)

Also, Rajput status doesn't seem to much with regards to genetics. For example, Punjabi Rajputs are like other non Rajput Punjabis for the most part. I haven't seen Rajput results from any other regions to suggest Rajput populations have any specific admixture profiles.


In Western Punjab at least, Rajput identity can get very confusing very fast. Many tribes claim Rajput origins but only a few can qualify those with evidence. This is where the confusion arises from. Tribes with ambiguous Rajput status were called quasi-Rajputs by the British; which is the best description for such clans in my opinion.

Do we have any Haryana Rajput samples here? I wonder how they would score.

Edit: Rajputs in Punjab should be closer to Khatris for origin stories to make sense. Plus most Rajputs claim very ancient origins and as such should have a high Andronovo-Yamnaya. This assuming that such origin stories are true. For example my tribe claims descent from Arjun, the Chariot riding hero from the Mahabharath. Even if these claims are exaggerated, they still point towards ancient arrival. I think I can tell a Jatt from a Rajput/Khatri from their Harappa DNA profile.

bmoney
01-22-2018, 04:09 AM
A proper Solanki line perhaps.
True Solanki = Karnat Chalukya
We also ahave a Kashmir Rathore whose numbers indicate true Karnat Rashtrakut influence.

Those are high numbers even for a Kannadiga - a Bunt or Coorgi would have less Tamil than that, Id bet my house on it

I think a more likely scenario is the sample provider is not Solanki or partially Solanki and mostly Gujarati D

bmoney
01-22-2018, 04:14 AM
Various results:

Reza


Cambodians 9%
Iranians 3%
Japanese 6%
Lithuanians 7%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 75%
YemeniteJews 0%


Reza Mother


Cambodians 9%
Iranians 8%
Japanese 4%
Lithuanians 6%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 73%
YemeniteJews 0%


Reza Father


Cambodians 8%
Iranians 0%
Japanese 5%
Lithuanians 6%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 81%
YemeniteJews 0%


Reza Wife


Cambodians 4%
Iranians 9%
Japanese 9%
Lithuanians 3%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 74%
YemeniteJews 0%


Reza Maternal Cousin


Cambodians 8%
Iranians 3%
Japanese 5%
Lithuanians 7%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 76%
YemeniteJews 2%


Slightly better run than the previous version.

Agree about the Tamil component being unhelpful - Tamils to Gujaratis to Bengalis scoring >80% into 90s!

The Yemenite Jew is another odd component. To be fair, my cousin is also tested on v5 so may explain that.

Iranian seems to have that West to East cline that's been hinted at in the other thread. Similar to how Caucasian works in the old harappaworld / extra Iran_N outside of Tamil.

Interesting how the Bengali E Asian (Cambodian + Japanese) scores are consistent @ 13 to 15% - obviously these samples are family wonder if other Bengali samples score the same, thoughts?

Poi and I tested on v5 and didnt get any Yemenite Jew - wonder what it represents

bmoney
01-22-2018, 04:19 AM
In Western Punjab at least, Rajput identity can get very confusing very fast. Many tribes claim Rajput origins but only a few can qualify those with evidence. This is where the confusion arises from. Tribes with ambiguous Rajput status were called quasi-Rajputs by the British; which is the best description for such clans in my opinion.

Do we have any Haryana Rajput samples here? I wonder how they would score.

Edit: Rajputs in Punjab should be closer to Khatris for origin stories to make sense. Plus most Rajputs claim very ancient origins and as such should have a high Andronovo-Yamnaya. This assuming that such origin stories are true. For example my tribe claims descent from Arjun, the Chariot riding hero from the Mahabharath. Even if these claims are exaggerated, they still point towards ancient arrival. I think I can tell a Jatt from a Rajput/Khatri from their Harappa DNA profile.

Are Jatts more Caucasus shifted? I didnt notice anything outstanding about the Harappa Khatri samples

Heir of Gandhara
01-22-2018, 04:25 AM
Are Jatts more Caucasus shifted? I didnt notice anything outstanding about the Harappa Khatri samples

From what I have observed: Jatts consistently show higher Euro while Rajputs and Khatris show higher Caucuses, and outliers can probably be pinned on the quasi-Rajputs.

pnb123
01-22-2018, 04:30 AM
Are Jatts more Caucasus shifted? I didnt notice anything outstanding about the Harappa Khatri samples

Here's spreadsheet for individual samples:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XGY-UIBC2GcUWGl1FizNvu9ofle4ZPHvfNmbrVYxGMo/edit#gid=6

khanabadoshi
01-22-2018, 04:39 AM
Should I send the data of my family + co.? What's the verdict, what's the process?

poi
01-22-2018, 04:54 AM
Should I send the data of my family + co.? What's the verdict, what's the process?

I think it is interesting and would be good to see where everybody stands, but I did not get much information out of it. The title is a bit ambitious, "south asian genotype project", I give him that.

Reza
01-22-2018, 05:12 AM
Interesting how the Bengali E Asian (Cambodian + Japanese) scores are consistent @ 13 to 15% - obviously these samples are family wonder if other Bengali samples score the same, thoughts?

Poi and I tested on v5 and didnt get any Yemenite Jew - wonder what it represents

Yeah it's pretty fixed in non-brahmin Bengalis [13-17%]:



Cousin 13%
Father 13%
Mother 13%
Wife 13%
Reza 15%
Zayd 14%
Tanzil 15%
Tanzil Uncle 17%
Searcher 16%
Bengali_Kayastha_1 14%
West_East_Bengal_Brahmin_1 2%


Similar for the Lithuanian component. We're a pretty homogenous group, us Bengalis!

The one good thing about Razib's run is that he did break down the population averages by each individual academic sample. Quite the spread in some of the results.




Group ID Cambodians Iranians Japanese Lithuanians Papuan Tamil YemeniteJews
Punjabi HG03667 5% 0% 0% 1% 0% 93% 1%
Punjabi HG03619 0% 41% 0% 10% 0% 49% 0%

Reza
01-22-2018, 05:13 AM
With such a limited set of reference populations, South Asian members have such uniform results. I can probably predict my own results just using MonkeyDLuffy and poi’s results.

Let's hear it ..

bmoney
01-22-2018, 05:57 AM
Yeah it's pretty fixed in non-brahmin Bengalis [13-17%]:
Similar for the Lithuanian component. We're a pretty homogenous group, us Bengalis!

True for Bangladesh, wonder what the variance is in West Bengal

West Bengal *Westside gang sign*

EDIT: just noticed that Punjabi HG03667 sample - very different, must be the Punjabi PJL reference

Sapporo
01-22-2018, 10:33 AM
Let's hear it ..

Cambodians - 0%
Iranians - 30-34%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 10-14%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 51-54%
YemeniteJews - 0%

I will certainly not get higher Lithuanian than 14% (likely less) and I doubt I get higher Tamil than 54%. The other Punjabi Jatt_2 (1 is the mixed person) got 48% Tamil and 39% Iranian so I think my Iranian could possibly be higher than 34% ever so slightly. Since the Tamil component is a mix of ANI and ASI, people get notable differences for those of the same ethnic group and/or biraderi. The component is probably pretty volatile.


Should I send the data of my family + co.? What's the verdict, what's the process?

I just sent him my data. Perhaps send yourself and 2-3 other samples? I just want to see his participant base grow and what reference populations he plans to add as he tweaks his calculators.

@bmoney

There is a Rajasthani Rajput participant. See line 36. His admixture breakdown:

Cambodians 2%
Iranians 30%
Japanese 0%
Lithuanians 9%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 60%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=2076417393

I suspect a Rajasthani Brahmin would score very similar but with higher Lithuanian and slightly lower Tamil. Rajputs probably very drastically based on sub-clans and region without a consistent admixture profile. The exception is Punjabi Rajputs who score quite similar to other Punjabi tribes or biraderis.

bmoney
01-22-2018, 12:17 PM
Cambodians - 0%
Iranians - 30-34%
Japanese - 0%
Lithuanians - 10-14%
Papuan - 0%
Tamil - 51-54%
YemeniteJews - 0%

I will certainly not get higher Lithuanian than 14% (likely less) and I doubt I get higher Tamil than 54%. The other Punjabi Jatt_2 (1 is the mixed person) got 48% Tamil and 39% Iranian so I think my Iranian could possibly be higher than 34% ever so slightly. Since the Tamil component is a mix of ANI and ASI, people get notable differences for those of the same ethnic group and/or biraderi. The component is probably pretty volatile.



I just sent him my data. Perhaps send yourself and 2-3 other samples? I just want to see his participant base grow and what reference populations he plans to add as he tweaks his calculators.

@bmoney

There is a Rajasthani Rajput participant. See line 36. His admixture breakdown:

Cambodians 2%
Iranians 30%
Japanese 0%
Lithuanians 9%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 60%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=2076417393

I suspect a Rajasthani Brahmin would score very similar but with higher Lithuanian and slightly lower Tamil. Rajputs probably very drastically based on sub-clans and region without a consistent admixture profile. The exception is Punjabi Rajputs who score quite similar to other Punjabi tribes or biraderis.

Which Punjabi samples is he using Sapp, his representative average is 71% Tamil

Re your results, I think your Iranian will be higher at the expense of Tamil

Sapporo
01-22-2018, 12:27 PM
Which Punjabi samples is he using Sapp, his representative average is 71% Tamil

Re your results, I think your Iranian will be higher at the expense of Tamil

Looks like he is using the PJL (Punjabi Lahore) samples. Though, not all of them it seems. There were over 100 in everest's spreadsheet. These are the individual scores. Individuals with high Tamil scores dominant. I counted 30 samples with Tamil scores of 62% and below. 15/30 had Tamil scores of 56% and below. The notable amount of individuals scoring 80%+ are causing it to average out around 71%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=749478938

MonkeyDLuffy
01-22-2018, 01:04 PM
In Western Punjab at least, Rajput identity can get very confusing very fast. Many tribes claim Rajput origins but only a few can qualify those with evidence. This is where the confusion arises from. Tribes with ambiguous Rajput status were called quasi-Rajputs by the British; which is the best description for such clans in my opinion.

Do we have any Haryana Rajput samples here? I wonder how they would score.

Edit: Rajputs in Punjab should be closer to Khatris for origin stories to make sense. Plus most Rajputs claim very ancient origins and as such should have a high Andronovo-Yamnaya. This assuming that such origin stories are true. For example my tribe claims descent from Arjun, the Chariot riding hero from the Mahabharath. Even if these claims are exaggerated, they still point towards ancient arrival. I think I can tell a Jatt from a Rajput/Khatri from their Harappa DNA profile.

I have a Haryanvi Rajput on 23andme matches, his last name is Rai. He is R2 and used to plot next to me on 23andme PCA plot, so I'd guess him scoring similar to me.

parasar
01-22-2018, 05:53 PM
Those are high numbers even for a Kannadiga - a Bunt or Coorgi would have less Tamil than that, Id bet my house on it

I think a more likely scenario is the sample provider is not Solanki or partially Solanki and mostly Gujarati D

For one, Razib's N Kannadi reference sample is 98% Tamil and 2% Dai - perhaps a north Kannara tribal.

Gujarati D is supposedly from a well off village headmen (cf. Patil, Patidar, Patel, etc.) group living in Houston.

bmoney
01-22-2018, 06:30 PM
For one, Razib's N Kannadi reference sample is 98% Tamil and 2% Dai - perhaps a north Kannara tribal.

Gujarati D is supposedly from a well off village headmen (cf. Patil, Patidar, Patel, etc.) group living in Houston.

Point 1 - North_Kannadiga tribals would not be representative of Chalukyas, just like Bihari Bhumihars are not representative of the vast majority of Biharis/Eastern UPites - its an irrelevant point

Point 2 - Maybe Gujarati D is not the best label - but I mean this category which seem pretty common in Gujarat - are these all Chalukya related?:

Group ID Cambodians Iranians Japanese Lithuanians Papuan Tamil
Gujrati NA20897 2% 0% 0% 2% 1% 94%
Gujrati NA21090 0% 4% 0% 5% 0% 91%
Gujrati NA21143 0% 6% 0% 3% 0% 91%
Gujrati NA20861 0% 6% 0% 4% 0% 90%
Gujrati NA21095 0% 4% 0% 6% 0% 90%
Gujrati NA20884 1% 9% 0% 1% 0% 89%
Gujrati NA20906 3% 5% 0% 2% 0% 89%
Gujrati NA20908 2% 4% 0% 4% 1% 89%
Gujrati NA21087 0% 9% 0% 3% 0% 89%
Gujrati NA21093 0% 11% 0% 0% 0% 89%
Gujrati NA21104 0% 5% 0% 6% 0% 89%
Gujrati NA20867 0% 11% 0% 1% 0% 88%
Gujrati NA20868 0% 12% 0% 0% 0% 88%
Gujrati NA20875 0% 6% 0% 6% 0% 88%
Gujrati NA21086 0% 5% 0% 6% 1% 88%
Gujrati NA21103 0% 10% 0% 1% 0% 88%
Gujrati NA21113 0% 5% 0% 6% 0% 88%
Gujrati NA21141 0% 12% 0% 0% 0% 88%
Gujrati NA21144 1% 11% 0% 0% 0% 88%
Gujrati NA20899 0% 6% 0% 7% 1% 87%
Gujrati NA21106 0% 12% 0% 0% 0% 87%
Gujrati NA21114 0% 4% 0% 9% 0% 87%
Gujrati NA21129 1% 12% 0% 0% 0% 87%
Gujrati NA21133 0% 5% 0% 7% 1% 87%
Gujrati NA21135 0% 13% 0% 0% 0% 87%
Gujrati NA20853 0% 13% 0% 1% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA20859 1% 9% 0% 4% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA20876 0% 14% 0% 1% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA20877 0% 9% 0% 5% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA20878 0% 8% 0% 6% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA20892 0% 12% 0% 1% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA20896 1% 12% 0% 0% 1% 86%
Gujrati NA20902 0% 14% 0% 0% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21088 0% 6% 0% 7% 1% 86%
Gujrati NA21089 0% 14% 0% 0% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21091 0% 12% 0% 2% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21094 0% 14% 0% 0% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21109 1% 12% 0% 2% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21111 1% 6% 0% 6% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21112 1% 10% 0% 3% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21119 0% 14% 0% 0% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21125 0% 9% 1% 5% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA21142 0% 10% 0% 4% 0% 86%
Gujrati NA20847 0% 15% 0% 0% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA20863 2% 10% 0% 2% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA20869 0% 8% 0% 6% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA20888 0% 13% 1% 1% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA21100 0% 14% 0% 1% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA21102 0% 12% 0% 3% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA21110 0% 10% 0% 5% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA21123 0% 15% 0% 0% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA21126 1% 13% 0% 2% 0% 85%
Gujrati NA21127 0% 14% 0% 0% 0% 85%

bmoney
01-23-2018, 04:06 AM
Razibs latest South Asian post with some of his observations:

But I’m posting this because there was a section on the genetic purity of Gaud Saraswat Brahmin’s of Karnataka. It caught my attention because I knew it was likely false. I’ve looked at South Indian Brahmins, and they generally look like they have gene flow from other South Indians. Also, if you use something called your eyes you can see that some South Indian Brahmins do not look like pure Indo-Aryan specimens at all. -Bmoney comment - Karnataka Brahmins and Dravidian speaking middle-castes of Karnataka can be strikingly fair skinned, Tamil Brahmins on the other hand are more diverse. I bet autosomal analysis will prove it if we had more samples. @Varun care to comment?

Jatts are different. I don’t know much about Jatts personally, aside from the fact that they are quite proud of being Jatt onlin. But in Zack’s data, and my own analysis in the SAGP, Jatts are highly inflated for “European-like” ancestry compared to populations around them. They have the highest proportions in their part of South Asia. Even higher than Pathans. If you asked me to say why, at this I do think Jatts do have a more recent gene flow than other groups in South Asia. If you talk to Jatts online about their history, you will know what their hypothesis for this exotic element is. (LOL Sapporo defs your mates)

Brahmins are different from other South Asians, and from each other. It will surprise no one that Brahmins are often somewhat different from non-Brahmins genetically. But, they also differ from each other.

Both South Indian and Bengali Brahmins mixed with the local population. Probably on the order of ~25% of the ancestry of these two Brahmin communities can be attributed to the local substrate. But, if you correct for East Asian admixture Bengali Brahmins are actually quite similar to the Brahmins of the Gangetic plains to the west. This comports with history.

A similar fraction seems reasonable for South Indian Brahmins, though perhaps more. The key issue that I have in this case is that the “European-like” proportion of South Indian Brahmins is about half of that of North Indian Brahmins. This would indicate half dilution. The admixture was probably from the higher end of the non-Brahmin caste hierarchy.

Some groups that think they are special are not so special. Kashmiri Pandits, for example, fancy themselves as somewhat better than other South Asians, often because of their West Asian or even European physical appearance. But the genetic data indicates ancestrally they’re not surprising in any way in the context of their geographic locale.

Geography is not that predictive. Well, it sort of is. But you see that groups like Chamars in Uttar Pradesh are similar to South Indian populations. Bmoney comment - want to see UP middle-caste samples

bmoney
01-23-2018, 04:44 AM
Another post of Razibs got me thinking about clines - the Iran_N to Steppe_EMBA ratio confirming the West to East Iran_N cline from Baluchistan to Gujarat and then to other parts of India.

The steppe_EMBA (Indo-Aryan) cline is north-north (probably entering SA from Gilgit-Baltistan) spreading south to the Gangetic-Plain via Punjab then moving in both east and west directions - as the signal is equally strong east as west in the IG Plain - see Razibs comment below

Sorted by Iran_N:Steppe_EMBA ratio

Group Iran_N Steppe_EMBA Ratio
Jew_Cochin 0.53 0.23 2.27
Brahui 0.60 0.30 1.98
Kharia 0.13 0.07 1.97
Balochi 0.57 0.32 1.75
Mala 0.23 0.18 1.25
Vishwabrahmin 0.25 0.20 1.21
GujaratiD 0.29 0.28 1.04
Sindhi 0.38 0.38 1.00
Bengali 0.22 0.25 0.91
Pathan 0.36 0.45 0.81
Punjabi 0.24 0.33 0.72
GujaratiB 0.27 0.38 0.72
Lodhi 0.21 0.29 0.72
Burusho 0.27 0.43 0.64
GujaratiC 0.23 0.37 0.61
Kalash 0.29 0.50 0.58
GujaratiA 0.26 0.46 0.57
Brahmin_Tiwari 0.23 0.44 0.51

Any way you slice it, a group like the Tiwari Brahmins of Northern India have more Onge-like ancestry than most of the groups in Pakistan. But also observe that the ratio toward Steppe_EMBA is more skewed in them than among even Pathans or Kalash. The Lodhi, a non-upper caste population from Uttar Pradesh in north-central South Asia are more skewed toward Steppe_EMBA than Pathans.

khanabadoshi
01-23-2018, 05:10 AM
Another post of Razibs got me thinking about clines - the Iran_N to Steppe_EMBA ratio confirming the West to East Iran_N cline from Baluchistan to Gujarat and then to other parts of India.

The steppe_EMBA (Indo-Aryan) cline is north-north (probably entering SA from Gilgit-Baltistan) spreading south to the Gangetic-Plain via Punjab then moving in both east and west directions - as the signal is equally strong east as west in the IG Plain - see Razibs comment below

Sorted by Iran_N:Steppe_EMBA ratio

Group Iran_N Steppe_EMBA Ratio
Jew_Cochin 0.53 0.23 2.27
Brahui 0.60 0.30 1.98
Kharia 0.13 0.07 1.97
Balochi 0.57 0.32 1.75
Mala 0.23 0.18 1.25
Vishwabrahmin 0.25 0.20 1.21
GujaratiD 0.29 0.28 1.04
Sindhi 0.38 0.38 1.00
Bengali 0.22 0.25 0.91
Pathan 0.36 0.45 0.81
Punjabi 0.24 0.33 0.72
GujaratiB 0.27 0.38 0.72
Lodhi 0.21 0.29 0.72
Burusho 0.27 0.43 0.64
GujaratiC 0.23 0.37 0.61
Kalash 0.29 0.50 0.58
GujaratiA 0.26 0.46 0.57
Brahmin_Tiwari 0.23 0.44 0.51

Any way you slice it, a group like the Tiwari Brahmins of Northern India have more Onge-like ancestry than most of the groups in Pakistan. But also observe that the ratio toward Steppe_EMBA is more skewed in them than among even Pathans or Kalash. The Lodhi, a non-upper caste population from Uttar Pradesh in north-central South Asia are more skewed toward Steppe_EMBA than Pathans.

Are these Lodhis the same as Lodhi-Pashtun-Dehli-Sultanate Lodhis?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodi_dynasty

bmoney
01-23-2018, 05:15 AM
Are these Lodhis the same as Lodhi-Pashtun-Dehli-Sultanate Lodhis?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lodi_dynasty

No those were Pashtun - these ones are OBC and native to UP/MP and claim Rajput status

EDIT: too many acronyms - OBC - disadvantaged caste determined by the government as deserving benefits/reservations due to their situation
UP- Uttar Pradesh
MP - Madhya Pradesh

Sidenote: There are Pashtun descendants in UP such as the Rohilla - who came as part of mercenary armies and were given land by the rulers in return

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohilla

MonkeyDLuffy
01-23-2018, 01:06 PM
No those were Pashtun - these ones are OBC and native to UP/MP and claim Rajput status

EDIT: too many acronyms - OBC - disadvantaged caste determined by the government as deserving benefits/reservations due to their situation
UP- Uttar Pradesh
MP - Madhya Pradesh

Sidenote: There are Pashtun descendants in UP such as the Rohilla - who came as part of mercenary armies and were given land by the rulers in return

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohilla

There are Hindu and Sikh Rohilla rajputs in Punjab and Rohilla jats in Haryana. Not positive if they are from the same strain.

parasar
01-23-2018, 04:26 PM
Point 1 - North_Kannadiga tribals would not be representative of Chalukyas, just like Bihari Bhumihars are not representative of the vast majority of Biharis/Eastern UPites - its an irrelevant point

Point 2 - Maybe Gujarati D is not the best label - but I mean this category which seem pretty common in Gujarat - are these all Chalukya related?:


No of course not by the time the Chalukyas came into fore they were not tribals. Earlier, who knows. I think they were related to Kadambas - chuttu or velkul Ayar. See also: Uraiyur, Trichinopoly Taluk, Trichinopoly District; on the south wall of the central shrine, Panchavaranesvara temple - Velkula-Bhima [Chalukya]-Vayakkal

The earliest mention of velkul is in the Purananuru written around 1st century A.D. This mentions a velkul named Irunkovel, where the ancestors of Irunkovel "ruled distant Tuvarai … the city that appeared in sacrificial pit of a northern sage”
Irunkovel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irunkōvēl

Others have derived the Chalukyas from the Seleucids.


But no matter their earlier genesis - Greek or tribal - the north Kannara region was the point of origin of the historical Chalukyas. We can't be sure of their genetic makeup unless we have ancient DNA.

At the when the Rajputs came into being - close in time to the Arab invasion of the south (DakshinaPatha), the Chalukyas and their feudatories the Rathores of north Kannara were in occupation of Gujarat. The soldier class of South Asia was pretty much Kannara in that period, and that is why we see Karnat Rajput everywhere - Bengal, Nepal, Bihar, UP, Gujarat, Sindh, Rajasthan, Ceylon etc.

The Chalukya soldiers that established kingdoms in Nepal (Someshwara & Nanyadeva), Bihar (Tirhut-Nanyadeva), and Bengal (Sena) were all Karnatas.

Kanheri Caves: "The close affinity between the Hálí Kanara letters and those of Cave inscriptions justifies the conclusion [movement from the south to north]. The Cave temples on the Island of Salsette are yet called the Caves of Kanara"

Ceylon Kulavamsa: "Kannáta - The name given in the Cúlavamsa to the Kanarese of South India. They are often mentioned as mercenary soldiers in Ceylon. E.g., Cv.lv.12; lx.24, 26; lxx.230."

Ghaznavid army: "Mahmud... large portions of which were Hindus under Hindu officers (Elliot, ii. 109; some fought in Karman, Khwarizm, and before Merw for their Muslim master, ib. ii. 130, 131). Part of these troops were Kannara, i.e. natives of KarnatadeSa (here i. 173)... "the Karnata, used in Karnatadesa, whence those troops come which in the armies are known as Kannara.”"

Over the past 1300 years or so they would have merged into local populations of the same standing, and pretty much look like their neighboring high castes. Though they still could have some traces of their Kannara origin.

BMG
01-23-2018, 07:06 PM
I am Kerala Nasrani2
Iranians 7%
Japanese 1%
Lithuanians 7%
Tamil 85%

Kerala nasrani1 have slightly different results
Iranians 17%
Japanese 1%
Lithuanians 2%
Tamil 80%

Not surprising though. I tend to score more South Asian and less west Asian than average in Harappa and various eurogenes calculators. I think it is due to the fact that most of my ancestors are from poorer background and they tend to be more mixed than the elite who.are much more strict in marrying within the community

bmoney
01-24-2018, 01:40 AM
Over the past 1300 years or so they would have merged into local populations of the same standing, and pretty much look like their neighboring high castes. Though they still could have some traces of their Kannara origin.

Interesting - had no idea the Kannadiga soldiers had such a wide range or were known as mercenaries. Wonder if some of these had Tulu or Kodava origins as they have a stronger military tradition than the Kannadigas themselves

Even if they preserve their Kannarese origin however, the military castes in the south are usually derived from the upper echelons - tribals would have minimal input

Yep youre right in that a lot of Kshatriya castes in north and south had unknown origins inc Rajputs - but due to hypergamy they generally absorb a lot of high caste substrate and end up looking nothing like how they started

prashantvaidwan
01-24-2018, 08:39 AM
Interesting - had no idea the Kannadiga soldiers had such a wide range or were known as mercenaries. Wonder if some of these had Tulu or Kodava origins as they have a stronger military tradition than the Kannadigas themselves

Even if they preserve their Kannarese origin however, the military castes in the south are usually derived from the upper echelons - tribals would have minimal input

Yep youre right in that a lot of Kshatriya castes in north and south had unknown origins inc Rajputs - but due to hypergamy they generally absorb a lot of high caste substrate and end up looking nothing like how they started

Rajput was just a title adopted by ruling class in entire India and later it became a fanciful thing to cling on this title. Though not enough autosomal results are seen for rajputs but definitely, extreme variances will be seen in rajput results. Rajasthani rajputs, considered most loyal, have more than 25% H in their male lineage. Bundela rajputs of UP have origin from Bhar adivasi tribe...chandels from Gond tribe....sisodia probably from Bhils/meena....Solanki and rathore have ancestory in south (probably chalukays and rastrakutas)..jadeja of gujarat from sammas of sindh...they are extremely diverse population....

bmoney
01-24-2018, 09:51 AM
Rajput was just a title adopted by ruling class in entire India and later it became a fanciful thing to cling on this title. Though not enough autosomal results are seen for rajputs but definitely, extreme variances will be seen in rajput results. Rajasthani rajputs, considered most loyal, have more than 25% H in their male lineage. Bundela rajputs of UP have origin from Bhar adivasi tribe...chandels from Gond tribe....sisodia probably from Bhils/meena....Solanki and rathore have ancestory in south (probably chalukays and rastrakutas)..jadeja of gujarat from sammas of sindh...they are extremely diverse population....

Interesting yes agree Rajput was a title - where did you get the haplogroup H statistic of Rajputs?

bmoney
01-24-2018, 09:52 AM
I am Kerala Nasrani2
Iranians 7%
Japanese 1%
Lithuanians 7%
Tamil 85%

Kerala nasrani1 have slightly different results
Iranians 17%
Japanese 1%
Lithuanians 2%
Tamil 80%

Not surprising though. I tend to score more South Asian and less west Asian than average in Harappa and various eurogenes calculators. I think it is due to the fact that most of my ancestors are from poorer background and they tend to be more mixed than the elite who.are much more strict in marrying within the community

Have you seen any Ezhava or Thiyya results before? curious

prashantvaidwan
01-24-2018, 10:07 AM
Interesting yes agree Rajput was a title - where did you get the haplogroup H statistic of Rajputs?

I read a study on Y haplo of rajputs in past, will try to find a link for you.

Heir of Gandhara
01-24-2018, 10:26 AM
If Rajput is just a title adopted by a wide range of diverse populations all across the subcontinent, why are they concentrated in the erstwhile Rajputana? There are some later day Rajputs like the Parmaras, and possibly also the Chauhans, but many could also be very old but related populations.

Also, what does prevalence of a certain Y Haplogroup among a community prove? For example, autosomally Jatts seem to be of Scythian stock, but Y Haplogroup wise they show Haplotype L most frequently.

Edit: Rajput is not a title but has very obvious genealogical connotation. Rana, Raja and Rao are the titles used by Rajputs.
Edit 2: Now that I think about it, for Rajputs the Haplotype is probably central to the claim because they are effectively tracing their lineage to a King.

prashantvaidwan
01-24-2018, 10:44 AM
bmoney, In sample size of 29, Y haplo H was 20.5%. among rajputs. Start from line-38 in table with id raj-02

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/

bmoney
01-24-2018, 01:08 PM
bmoney, In sample size of 29, Y haplo H was 20.5%. among rajputs. Start from line-38 in table with id raj-02

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/

Thanks for that, based on this study alone (small sample sizes) - Prashant has a point, especially when comparing to other NW groups

However we have no idea where these Rajputs are sampled from, study mentions Rajputs sampled are from India with no further detail

SA Native Haplogroup % for Rajputs (C H O F) 9/29 = 31%

Just H = 20%

Comparison:

Chamar 50% Native (H + C)

Baloch - 4% (H)

Kalash - 20% (H)

Pathan (Study sampled Pakistan 'Pathans') 19% (H + C)

Sindhi 0%

Vellalar - Tamil Agriculturalist - 29% (H)

Maratha - 69% (H + C + O)

Uttar Pradesh Brahmin - 14% (H)

Tamil Brahmin (Iyer + Iyengar) 12% (H+C)

Konkan Brahmin - 12% (H)

Irula - Dravidian Tribal - 77% (F+H+C)

Santhal - 100% (H + O)

Toda - Dravidian ancient ANI tribe - 13% (1 out of 8 was C)

bmoney
01-24-2018, 01:12 PM
If Rajput is just a title adopted by a wide range of diverse populations all across the subcontinent, why are they concentrated in the erstwhile Rajputana? There are some later day Rajputs like the Parmaras, and possibly also the Chauhans, but many could also be very old but related populations.

Also, what does prevalence of a certain Y Haplogroup among a community prove? For example, autosomally Jatts seem to be of Scythian stock, but Y Haplogroup wise they show Haplotype L most frequently.

Edit: Rajput is not a title but has very obvious genealogical connotation. Rana, Raja and Rao are the titles used by Rajputs.
Edit 2: Now that I think about it, for Rajputs the Haplotype is probably central to the claim because they are effectively tracing their lineage to a King.

Theres no doubt about the connection to status - genealogically however Sapporo has mentioned Rajputs resemble other high castes in their areas, im pretty sure you would score different to a Gujarat Rajput

parasar
01-24-2018, 03:05 PM
Thanks for that, based on this study alone (small sample sizes) - Prashant has a point, especially when comparing to other NW groups

However we have no idea where these Rajputs are sampled from, study mentions Rajputs sampled are from India with no further detail
...
Uttar Pradesh
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC403703/bin/68194-18f3_F4TT.jpg

Sapporo
01-24-2018, 05:35 PM
If Rajput is just a title adopted by a wide range of diverse populations all across the subcontinent, why are they concentrated in the erstwhile Rajputana? There are some later day Rajputs like the Parmaras, and possibly also the Chauhans, but many could also be very old but related populations.

Also, what does prevalence of a certain Y Haplogroup among a community prove? For example, autosomally Jatts seem to be of Scythian stock, but Y Haplogroup wise they show Haplotype L most frequently.

Edit: Rajput is not a title but has very obvious genealogical connotation. Rana, Raja and Rao are the titles used by Rajputs.
Edit 2: Now that I think about it, for Rajputs the Haplotype is probably central to the claim because they are effectively tracing their lineage to a King.

Actually, Jatts are often R1a1a (R-M417) just as much as they are L (which is usually just L1c-M357; so there might be a founder effect) if not more so. I've rarely seen any other L sub-type. Also, even if we were to assume Jatts had Indo-Scythian ancestry, the vast majority of their ancestry still hails from Iran N type Neolithic farmers. Since, it's very possible L originates from the Iranian Plateau, that is not surprising. I think if we sampled enough Punjabis or other Northwestern South Asians, we would find L1c-357 is very common. It was even found among Pamiris (see the spreadsheet for that as well) and is frequent among certain Pashtun tribes as well.

See Jatt Y-DNA on the spreadsheet below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?usp=sharing

MonkeyDLuffy
01-24-2018, 05:42 PM
Actually, Jatts are often R1a1a (R-M417) just as much as they are L (which is usually just L1c-M357; so there might be a founder effect) if not more so. I've rarely seen any other L sub-type. Also, even if we were to assume Jatts had Indo-Scythian ancestry, the vast majority of their ancestry still hails from Iran N type Neolithic farmers. Since, it's very possible L originates from the Iranian Plateau, that is not surprising. I think if we sampled enough Punjabis or other Northwestern South Asians, we would find L1c-357 is very common. It was even found among Pamiris (see the spreadsheet for that as well) and is frequent among certain Pashtun tribes as well.

See Jatt Y-DNA on the spreadsheet below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?usp=sharing

Yo sap, that S.D. surender dhiman guy is F, not H. you might want to fix that. I'll P.M. you more Tarkhan halogroups

Sapporo
01-24-2018, 05:44 PM
Yo sap, that S.D. surender dhiman guy is F, not H. you might want to fix that. I'll P.M. you more Tarkhan halogroups

I didn't update him. It might have been McNinja. I believe 23andMe updated haplogroups and most if not all F's became H. Double check your 23andMe to see what is showing for him.

pnb123
01-24-2018, 05:59 PM
Actually, Jatts are often R1a1a (R-M417) just as much as they are L (which is usually just L1c-M357; so there might be a founder effect) if not more so. I've rarely seen any other L sub-type. Also, even if we were to assume Jatts had Indo-Scythian ancestry, the vast majority of their ancestry still hails from Iran N type Neolithic farmers. Since, it's very possible L originates from the Iranian Plateau, that is not surprising. I think if we sampled enough Punjabis or other Northwestern South Asians, we would find L1c-357 is very common. It was even found among Pamiris (see the spreadsheet for that as well) and is frequent among certain Pashtun tribes as well.

See Jatt Y-DNA on the spreadsheet below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?usp=sharing

I’ve one Nepali relative with surname Dangi (Chhetri) and he’s L-M357, which is pretty rare in Nepal. I know he’s Nepali because of his elevated East Asian levels. When I looked up Dangi surname on internet, i found out that some Jatts can have this surname.

poi
01-24-2018, 08:52 PM
I’ve one Nepali relative with surname Dangi (Chhetri) and he’s L-M357, which is pretty rare in Nepal. I know he’s Nepali because of his elevated East Asian levels. When I looked up Dangi surname on internet, i found out that some Jatts can have this surname.

Daangi, in Nepali context, is -of-Daang(place name). Interesting that there are L. Is he your 23andme relative or GedMatch?

pnb123
01-24-2018, 10:47 PM
Daangi, in Nepali context, is -of-Daang(place name). Interesting that there are L. Is he your 23andme relative or GedMatch?

23andme.

Heir of Gandhara
01-24-2018, 11:29 PM
Theres no doubt about the connection to status - genealogically however Sapporo has mentioned Rajputs resemble other high castes in their areas, im pretty sure you would score different to a Gujarat Rajput

When I say genealogy, I mean it in a strictly NW subcontinent's sense. Geneology means tracing of one's ancestral line back to an individual of yore. In the north at least, this line is strictly patriarchal and only tracks father to male child relationship. Thus, by its very nature, cannot be expected to be responsible for one's entire genetic makeup. Moreover, this genealogy recording thing is not a very old tradition, hence we can only guess about how the society was before the records started getting written down or remembered. In the case of the Rajput community, the word itself is derived from 'Raja-Putra' or 'Sons of a King'; so a proper Rajput should be able to trace his genealogy back to an earlier King. For this reason, I claimed that Rajput is not a title, but rather the name has strong genealogical connotations.



Actually, Jatts are often R1a1a (R-M417) just as much as they are L (which is usually just L1c-M357; so there might be a founder effect) if not more so. I've rarely seen any other L sub-type. Also, even if we were to assume Jatts had Indo-Scythian ancestry, the vast majority of their ancestry still hails from Iran N type Neolithic farmers. Since, it's very possible L originates from the Iranian Plateau, that is not surprising. I think if we sampled enough Punjabis or other Northwestern South Asians, we would find L1c-357 is very common. It was even found among Pamiris (see the spreadsheet for that as well) and is frequent among certain Pashtun tribes as well.

See Jatt Y-DNA on the spreadsheet below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?usp=sharing

Yes, I am aware of this. In the study I read, it also said L was the most common followed by R. My question was: what does the presence of a certain Y-DNA Haplogroup in a group prove according to the person who shared that stat. I also qualified my statement with my second edit, where I said that for Rajputs it might be important because people claiming descent from Prithvi Raj Chauhan, for example, should all have the same Y-DNA haplogroup.

Now some comments regarding the health of the study. As Parasar shared earlier, the Rajput samples were taken from UP. Well if I were to carry out that research, the bulk of my samples I would take from the Rajputana region. Not UP, not Punjab, but Rajputana cos that's where the bulk of the community resides.

Also, I wonder why 95% of all samples have Y-DNA and mtDNA in strict pairs. Like H always has M052, R1 has M017, R2 has M124 and so on and so forth.

bmoney
01-25-2018, 12:50 AM
Actually, Jatts are often R1a1a (R-M417) just as much as they are L (which is usually just L1c-M357; so there might be a founder effect) if not more so. I've rarely seen any other L sub-type. Also, even if we were to assume Jatts had Indo-Scythian ancestry, the vast majority of their ancestry still hails from Iran N type Neolithic farmers. Since, it's very possible L originates from the Iranian Plateau, that is not surprising. I think if we sampled enough Punjabis or other Northwestern South Asians, we would find L1c-357 is very common. It was even found among Pamiris (see the spreadsheet for that as well) and is frequent among certain Pashtun tribes as well.

See Jatt Y-DNA on the spreadsheet below:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?usp=sharing

I think you have a point about L1c in regards to Punjab, but the overall South Central Asian picture is different.

My thoughts are that L1c came from the BMAC as its higher closer to the BMAC whereas L1a is higher closer to Baluchistan. L1c seems to have a more NE distribution whereas L1a has a more western distribution

Also leads me to believe L1a is older in SA than L1c and came with the Iran_N pop - Interestingly the Toda - the ancient ANI tribe I referred to in the earlier post, have L1 as the most common haplogroup (presumably L1a) followed by J - L & J must have come together a long time ago

Looking at Cristofaro 2013, ive categorised L1a vs L1c among samples by % - keep in mind L is <10% all sampled pops except the Baloch, Makrani & Hazara Balkh (L1a majority among L) Kalash, Burusho, Kyrgyztan Uyghur, Uzbek Balkh (L1c majority among L)

L1a higher
Baloch
Makrani
Esfahan
Iran Unknown
Hazara Balkh
Hazara Bamyan
Pashtun Kunduz
Tajik Balkh
Turkmen Jawzjan
Uzbek Jawzjan
Uzbek overall
Kyrgyz Central
Kyrgyz Overall

L1a - L1c equal or similar
Brahui
Pathan
Pakistan overall
Khorasan
Kordestan
Iranian overall
Tajik overall
Uzbek Sar-e-Poi

L1c higher
Burusho
Kalash
Sindhi
East Azeri
South Iran
Teheran
Pashtun Baghlan
Tajik Badakshan
Tajik Samangan
Uzbek Balkh
Dungan
Uyghur
Kyrgyz NW
Kyrgyz overall

bmoney
01-25-2018, 01:22 AM
When I say genealogy, I mean it in a strictly NW subcontinent's sense. Geneology means tracing of one's ancestral line back to an individual of yore. In the north at least, this line is strictly patriarchal and only tracks father to male child relationship. Thus, by its very nature, cannot be expected to be responsible for one's entire genetic makeup. Moreover, this genealogy recording thing is not a very old tradition, hence we can only guess about how the society was before the records started getting written down or remembered. In the case of the Rajput community, the word itself is derived from 'Raja-Putra' or 'Sons of a King'; so a proper Rajput should be able to trace his genealogy back to an earlier King. For this reason, I claimed that Rajput is not a title, but rather the name has strong genealogical connotations.




Yes, I am aware of this. In the study I read, it also said L was the most common followed by R. My question was: what does the presence of a certain Y-DNA Haplogroup in a group prove according to the person who shared that stat. I also qualified my statement with my second edit, where I said that for Rajputs it might be important because people claiming descent from Prithvi Raj Chauhan, for example, should all have the same Y-DNA haplogroup.

Now some comments regarding the health of the study. As Parasar shared earlier, the Rajput samples were taken from UP. Well if I were to carry out that research, the bulk of my samples I would take from the Rajputana region. Not UP, not Punjab, but Rajputana cos that's where the bulk of the community resides.

Also, I wonder why 95% of all samples have Y-DNA and mtDNA in strict pairs. Like H always has M052, R1 has M017, R2 has M124 and so on and so forth.

Would be interesting to see Rajasthan samples - but the point were making is if 30% of Rajaputras can trace their lineage back to a native SA lineage even if sampled in just one area - it just means that Rajput is a sign of descent but not necessarily of foreign descent. Maybe an ancient tribal elite for example or a native lineage that found social success

prashantvaidwan
01-25-2018, 04:43 AM
I’ve one Nepali relative with surname Dangi (Chhetri) and he’s L-M357, which is pretty rare in Nepal. I know he’s Nepali because of his elevated East Asian levels. When I looked up Dangi surname on internet, i found out that some Jatts can have this surname.

Yes...three villages of Dangi clan are just few km away from my village...these dangi are jats....

prashantvaidwan
01-25-2018, 05:01 AM
Would be interesting to see Rajasthan samples - but the point were making is if 30% of Rajaputras can trace their lineage back to a native SA lineage even if sampled in just one area - it just means that Rajput is a sign of descent but not necessarily of foreign descent. Maybe an ancient tribal elite for example or a native lineage that found social success

It is a well established fact that rajput as a caste became prominent after 16th century. Rajput is not even an ethnic group , it is just a social class. Any community/tribe in central india who attained power in late medieval period started calling themselves rajput and bards did a wonderful job in linking their ancestry to suryavanshi, chandravanhsi, yaduvanshi.

Heir of Gandhara
01-25-2018, 05:38 AM
@bmoney

Oh absolutely. There definitely are some later day Rajputs like the ones I mentioned by name in a previous post. But saying that all people belonging to the community basically started assuming that name after they achieved prominence within their communities would also imply that they should be represented in equal numbers throughout India, and not have the bulk of their population concentrated in just one region. Moreover, all claims to Rajput hood are not universally accepted. There is much debate about many UP and Punjabi Rajputs to this day. Also in the case of Punjab, most Rajput claimants would go at lengths to somehow trace a bona fide link to the Rajput nerve center of erstwhile Rajputana.

bmoney
01-25-2018, 05:41 AM
@bmoney

Oh absolutely. There definitely are some later day Rajputs like the ones I mentioned by name in a previous post. But saying that all people belonging to the community basically started assuming that name after they achieved prominence within their communities would also imply that they should be represented in equal numbers throughout India, and not have the bulk of their population concentrated in just one region. Moreover, all claims to Rajput hood are not universally accepted. There is much debate about many UP and Punjabi Rajputs to this day. Also in the case of Punjab, most Rajput claimants would go at lengths to somehow trace a bona fide link to the Rajput nerve center of erstwhile Rajputana.

A lot of Jat castes claim Rajput lineage

Heir of Gandhara
01-25-2018, 05:51 AM
A lot of Jat castes claim Rajput lineage

I have read such claims being made online. But I also have many Jatt friends in real life who vehemently deny such claims.

prashantvaidwan
01-25-2018, 06:34 AM
Just 6% population in rajasthan, 8% in UP. I don't know where are they centered? Rajputs are almost equally divided in all northern/central states (except haryana, punjab) UP, HP, MP, Uttarakhand, Bihar,Gujarat Jharkhand, Chattisgarh etc. Rajputs in rajasthan/gujarat rose to prominence in mid medieval period. Even marathas of today linked their 92 clans to rajput ancestry. Rajputs in bihar, UP had some petty states in late medieval so their claim was refuted. rajputs in each state are the influential people of those states who claimed rajput status over the time, they are descendants of many ethnic groups, one of the most diverse populations in India. Let us wait for a detailed DNA study on rajputs, real picture will come out.
Though few last names are common. but jat clans having rajput ancestry is just bard stories, no truth in that. Even few jat kings (bharatpur, patiala etc) of late medieval period traced their lineage to yaduvanshi :), the same obsession of ruling class....

MonkeyDLuffy
01-25-2018, 02:14 PM
Even if Rajputs originated in Rajputana aka Rajasthan, we seem to forget they were traditionally warriors, and wherever warriors move in armies, they usually marry local women, which in long term can make them similar to their neighboring tribes. Be it a Rajput from west punjab or rajput from gujarat or from Bihar, they all share majority of surnames, tracing back to Rajputana.

On the topic Jats claiming rajput ancestry, I have only heard it from Rajasthani and some Haryanvi jats. but hey I have heard some Haryanvi jats claiming maratha ancestry, so anything can be claimed lol.

Sapporo
01-25-2018, 04:28 PM
I have read such claims being made online. But I also have many Jatt friends in real life who vehemently deny such claims.

I think it's an internet phenomenon. My paternal clan supposedly claims Chandela Rajput origin according to various unsubstantiated internet sources but no one I've ever spoken to among my family, friends or acquaintances has claimed any affinity or relation toward Rajputs. We certainly don't associate with them in terms of culture nor kinship.

Even among Rajputs, is there a feeling of kinship to Rajputs throughout the subcontinent? I'd imagine it depends on the region because my interaction with Punjabi Rajputs has led me to believe they feel closer to a Punjabi Jat, Arain, Tarkhan or Khatri than to a UP or Gujarati Rajput.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-25-2018, 04:40 PM
I am curious though, do Muslim Rajputs from Pakistan trace their lineage to Rajputana kingdoms or they claim Persian/Arabic ancestry like their neighbors?

parasar
01-25-2018, 07:37 PM
I think it's an internet phenomenon. My paternal clan supposedly claims Chandela Rajput origin according to various unsubstantiated internet sources but no one I've ever spoken to among my family, friends or acquaintances has claimed any affinity or relation toward Rajputs. We certainly don't associate with them in terms of culture nor kinship.

Even among Rajputs, is there a feeling of kinship to Rajputs throughout the subcontinent? I'd imagine it depends on the region because my interaction with Punjabi Rajputs has led me to believe they feel closer to a Punjabi Jat, Arain, Tarkhan or Khatri than to a UP or Gujarati Rajput.

What is your clan, if I may ask?
The Grewal Jats indeed have a tradition that they are are from the Bilaspur area and link themselves to Chandels. The Chandels when they lost power in central India migrated north. The name Grewal itself appears closer to Gahirwar rather than Chandel, but then the Chandel themselves have a Gahirwar connection as per a story told in the Raso of Chand Bardai.

I was wondering if any these folk have tested their Y line.
"Raja SANGAR CHAND, 16th Raja of Kahlur 1197/1220, married and had issue, ten sons, seven of whom founded jagiri families"
http://members.iinet.net.au/~royalty/ips/b/bilaspur.html

I recall a Grewal who is L1c I believe.

Sapporo
01-25-2018, 08:10 PM
What is your clan, if I may ask?
The Grewal Jats indeed have a tradition that they are are from the Bilaspur area and link themselves to Chandels. The Chandels when they lost power in central India migrated north. The name Grewal itself appears closer to Gahirwar rather than Chandel, but then the Chandel themselves have a Gahirwar connection as per a story told in the Raso of Chand Bardai.

I was wondering if any these folk have tested their Y line.
"Raja SANGAR CHAND, 16th Raja of Kahlur 1197/1220, married and had issue, ten sons, seven of whom founded jagiri families"
http://members.iinet.net.au/~royalty/ips/b/bilaspur.html

I recall a Grewal who is L1c I believe.

Yes, my paternal clan is Grewal and maternal clan is Mann. Obviously, these are just 2 of the multiple clans my grandparents, great grandparents descend from, etc. (others are Gill, Virk, Mangat, Baraich, Sandhu, etc.)

There are 5 Grewals (including myself) that I have tracked down the Y-DNA and mt-DNA from. 3 of us are L1c, 1 is R1a1a and 1 is R2. None of us share the same mt-DNA of course but I found 3 other unrelated Jat/Jatts who are HV2 (one is a Haryanvi Jat).

There also another Jatt on the spreadsheet who is paternally Jhaj and maternally Grewal and another who is paternally Sandhu and maternally Grewal.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

parasar
01-25-2018, 08:43 PM
Yes, my paternal clan is Grewal and maternal clan is Mann. Obviously, these are just 2 of the multiple clans my grandparents, great grandparents descend from, etc. (others are Gill, Virk, Mangat, Baraich, Sandhu, etc.)

There are 5 Grewals (including myself) that I have tracked down the Y-DNA and mt-DNA from. 3 of us are L1c, 1 is R1a1a and 1 is R2. There also another Jatt on the spreadsheet who is paternally Jhaj and maternally Grewal. None of us share the same mt-DNA of course but I found 3 other unrelated Jat/Jatts who are HV2 (one is a Haryanvi Jat).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

L1c was found in two Uttar Pradesh Rajput samples in Sengupta's study. No idea if these happen to be Chandel or Gahirwar.

DYS19 DYS388 DYS389AB DYS389CD DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYSA7.2
47 raj-14 raj India North South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M357 L3 15 12 16 13 22 10 14 12 12 10
49 raj-18 raj India North South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M357 L3 15 12 16 13 22 10 14 12 12 10

I have seen the same exact pattern 15, 12, 16, 13, 22, 10, 14, 12, 12 in Jats too.

See also same exact pattern in Pathan:
810 HGDP00258 Pathan Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 15 12 16 13 22 10 14 12 12 10

This indicates that this L1c type is a recent expansion. I suspect all Jat, Rajput, Pathan L1c are closely related.

On the other hand, see Pallan, very different:
pln-10 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M357 L3 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 14 9

The Pallan M357 is so different that it is closer to M76 than to northern M357:
pln-23 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 9

The Tamil L1c in Arunkumar's data-set also look quite different.

bmoney
01-25-2018, 11:01 PM
L1c was found in two Uttar Pradesh Rajput samples in Sengupta's study. No idea if these happen to be Chandel or Gahirwar.

DYS19 DYS388 DYS389AB DYS389CD DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYSA7.2
47 raj-14 raj India North South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M357 L3 15 12 16 13 22 10 14 12 12 10
49 raj-18 raj India North South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M357 L3 15 12 16 13 22 10 14 12 12 10

I have seen the same exact pattern 15, 12, 16, 13, 22, 10, 14, 12, 12 in Jats too.

See also same exact pattern in Pathan:
810 HGDP00258 Pathan Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 15 12 16 13 22 10 14 12 12 10

This indicates that this L1c type is a recent expansion. I suspect all Jat, Rajput, Pathan L1c are closely related.

On the other hand, see Pallan, very different:
pln-10 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M357 L3 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 14 9

The Pallan M357 is so different that it is closer to M76 than to northern M357:
pln-23 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 9

The Tamil L1c in Arunkumar's data-set also look quite different.

To make this meaningful, compare Pallan L1c to a Pallan H

Alternatively, try comparing Pallan L1a to Baloch L1a

I'd also add to compare an R1a from North/Central India to a Pallan R1a

khanabadoshi
01-25-2018, 11:04 PM
I am curious though, do Muslim Rajputs from Pakistan trace their lineage to Rajputana kingdoms or they claim Persian/Arabic ancestry like their neighbors?

Most retain clan names (and titles like Rao) and very aware of being Rajput. In my opinion, one the most clan/caste-oriented peoples in Pakistan are Rajputs. I can't recall any Rajput I've known claim foreign ancestry. In Pakistan, you'll see the rear windows of cars plastered with decals of their ethnicity. Mostly two groups do this, Rajputs and Jatts, but who does it more? I actually think Rajputs lol. This might be out of style now though.

This is anecdotal, but they are similar to Jatts in strongly preferring marriage amongst themselves, however, they do mix a lot. I believe every single Punjabi person married into my family is Rajput, I don't think any are Jatts.

Heir of Gandhara
01-26-2018, 12:41 AM
Even if Rajputs originated in Rajputana aka Rajasthan, we seem to forget they were traditionally warriors, and wherever warriors move in armies, they usually marry local women, which in long term can make them similar to their neighboring tribes. Be it a Rajput from west punjab or rajput from gujarat or from Bihar, they all share majority of surnames, tracing back to Rajputana.

Rajputana of old also included territories form MP, Gujrat, Sindh and even the desert areas from Southern West Punjab. Not sure if Rajputs originated there, but that's where they seemed to coalesce in most force. I also think that an overwhelming number or Rajputs in Himachal, Jammu and Punjab also claim origins in Rajasthan.



Even among Rajputs, is there a feeling of kinship to Rajputs throughout the subcontinent? I'd imagine it depends on the region because my interaction with Punjabi Rajputs has led me to believe they feel closer to a Punjabi Jat, Arain, Tarkhan or Khatri than to a UP or Gujarati Rajput.

The feeling of kinship is definitely there within Pakistan. But across the border, I think religious differences and the prevailing political situation are a barrier. If I am forced to pick a previously unknown normal person from India to have a chat over coffee with, I'd probably pick a Rajput from either Rajasthan or Jammu. I am not sure if this kinship or if its general curiosity cos I have never met any so far.

Within Pakistan, I think kinship is very regional. A Pothwari Raja would feel more kinship towards a fellow Pothwari Raja than he would for people outside the region. This phenomenon manifests itself in the marital preferences in the region too. Pakistan wide, he would feel closer to a Punjabi or Haryanvi Rajput than he would with the other biradaris. Outside of the Rajgans, he would not discriminate much between the other land-owning tribes. These are of course broad-brush statements and actual interactions could be much more nuanced.



I am curious though, do Muslim Rajputs from Pakistan trace their lineage to Rajputana kingdoms or they claim Persian/Arabic ancestry like their neighbors?

Sindhi Rajputs are most probably linked to modern day Rajasthan and Gujrat. In Punjab, most Rajput tribes also trace their lineage back to Rajasthan - Bhattis do to Jaisalmer, Minhas to Jammu and from there to Rajasthan, Chibs trace it to Katoch Rajputs of Kangra. Janjuas are different in the sense that they do not associate themselves with any other tribe and think of themselves as being native to the Pothwar region. I am yet to meet a Rajput who claims Persian or Arabic ancestry. And when I say Rajput, I mean people whose Rajput claims are also accepted by their regional peers. How can a Rajput claim Persian or Arabic ancestry?

bmoney
01-26-2018, 12:50 AM
Rajputana of old also included territories form MP, Gujrat, Sindh and even the desert areas from Southern West Punjab. Not sure if Rajputs originated there, but that's where they seemed to coalesce in most force. I also think that an overwhelming number or Rajputs in Himachal, Jammu and Punjab also claim origins in Rajasthan.

My formerly close friend who was a Punjabi Rajput from Faisalabad but originally from Ludhiana said the Janjuas were considered 'junglee' Rajputs or a little bit different to other Rajput clans, i dont know what he meant can you elaborate

Interestingly there is a Punjabi Indian singer called Labh Janjua

MonkeyDLuffy
01-26-2018, 01:01 AM
Sindhi Rajputs are most probably linked to modern day Rajasthan and Gujrat. In Punjab, most Rajput tribes also trace their lineage back to Rajasthan - Bhattis do to Jaisalmer, Minhas to Jammu and from there to Rajasthan, Chibs trace it to Katoch Rajputs of Kangra. Janjuas are different in the sense that they do not associate themselves with any other tribe and think of themselves as being native to the Pothwar region. I am yet to meet a Rajput who claims Persian or Arabic ancestry. And when I say Rajput, I mean people whose Rajput claims are also accepted by their regional peers. How can a Rajput claim Persian or Arabic ancestry?

I remember a Pakistani user from other forum who used tried his best to dissociate potowari or West punjabi rajputs in general from rajputs of Rajasthan, we had debates over it many times. So i wanted to confirm with you how they view their history. Like we talked in PM, Muslim brahmins became syed and then you have arains claiming arab ancestry, I was skeptical about Rajputs as well.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-26-2018, 01:02 AM
My formerly close friend who was a Punjabi Rajput from Faisalabad but originally from Ludhiana said the Janjuas were considered 'junglee' Rajputs or a little bit different to other Rajput clans, i dont know what he meant can you elaborate

Interestingly there is a Punjabi Indian singer called Labh Janjua

Yea Labh Janjua was a Sikh rajput.

parasar
01-26-2018, 01:16 AM
To make this meaningful, compare Pallan L1c to a Pallan H

Alternatively, try comparing Pallan L1a to Baloch L1a

I'd also add to compare an R1a from North/Central India to a Pallan R1a

The R1a is all the same type - no matter where. Klyosov saw a earlier type of R1a STR in India, but I don't see it. An earlier type of R2 is there in the south but not R1a.

L1c and H are very far apart.

Pallan and Baloch L1a comparison is meaningful:
815 HGDP00054 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 10
823 HGDP00068 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 10
828 HGDP00078 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 9
830 HGDP00082 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 15 12 22 10 13 11 11 9
831 HGDP00084 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 15 12 22 10 13 11 11 9

Different, but not radically so from Pallan - perhaps a few thousand years - but with a lot more diversity in the Pallan.

pln-07 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 15 11 12 9
pln-23 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 9
pln-26 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 14 12 17 12 21 10 14 11 11 9
pln-42 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 15 12 18 12 22 10 14 11 13 9

bmoney
01-26-2018, 01:26 AM
The R1a is all the same type - no matter where. Klyosov saw a earlier type of R1a STR in India, but I don't see it. An earlier type of R2 is there in the south but not R1a.

L1c and H are very far apart.

Pallan and Baloch L1a comparison is meaningful:
815 HGDP00054 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 10
823 HGDP00068 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 10
828 HGDP00078 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 9
830 HGDP00082 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 15 12 22 10 13 11 11 9
831 HGDP00084 Balochi Pakistan South South Asia Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 15 12 22 10 13 11 11 9

Different, but not radically so from Pallan - perhaps a few thousand years - but with a lot more diversity in the Pallan.

pln-07 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 15 11 12 9
pln-23 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 14 12 16 12 22 10 14 11 13 9
pln-26 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 14 12 17 12 21 10 14 11 11 9
pln-42 pln India South South Asia Caste-low Dravidian M076 L1 15 12 18 12 22 10 14 11 13 9

I agree that L1c is more recent to SA than L1a, L1c probably came via BMAC, just not sure Pallan L1c is of different origins to northern L1c

My point is that some of that L1a-L1c convergence in the Pallan is due to mixing - like L1a/L1c mixing with H in the Pallan which is why I wanted to compare - still interested in this

The difference between L1a in the Baloch and the Pallan - 70% of strands are different when you aggregate the groups, this also lends support to geographical differences

Unless you want to stay Baloch L1a is also a recent expansion which is unlikely if L1a is found in Rakhigarhi

Regarding your note about diversity - I think the Baloch/Brahui are bottlenecked populations - Dravidian peoples most certainly expanded in the south post-IVC creating a lot of L diversity along the way. I would expect the same for the Js that went south

R1a on the other hand:

Although they are closely related, suggesting they likely spread from a single Central Asian source pool, there do seem to be at least three and probably more R1a founder clades within the Subcontinent [58], consistent with multiple waves of arrival.

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-017-0936-9

Another interesting note in the study

Even so, the spread of Indo-European within the Subcontinent seems to have been mainly male-mediated, in agreement with recent X-chromosome analyses [102] and as indicated by the high frequency of West Eurasian (mainly R1a) paternal lineages across the region—varying in the 1KG data from ~25% in the northwest and ~20% in the northeast to ~14% in the south, but much more dramatically when taking caste and language into account (from almost 50% in upper-caste Indo-European speakers to almost zero in eastern Austro-Asiatic speakers) [12, 56, 59]. This present-day distribution cannot be directly correlated with language replacement, however, since the signal is also strong in Dravidian-speaking populations (Fig. 3). The last four millennia witnessed major cultural changes in the Indian Subcontinent, with the decline of the Indus Valley civilisation and the rise of Vedic religion, based on a strict caste system, often associated with the arrival of Indo-Aryan speakers. The mix of autochthonous and immigrant genetic lineages seen across South Asia, however, suggests a gradual merging of male-dominated Andronovo/BMAC immigrants with the indigenous descendants of the Indus Valley civilisation [12], possibly associated with the spread of the Megalithic culture as far south as Sri Lanka in the first century Before Common Era (BCE), prior to the establishment of the full jāti caste system very roughly ~2 ka [12, 103]. Basu et al. [26] date the “freezing” of India’s population structure to ~1.5 ka.

bmoney
01-26-2018, 01:40 AM
Razibs latest treemix:

Quite a lot of variation in Punjabi and Gujarati distances - UP Brahmin is also a surprise here
21017

Heir of Gandhara
01-26-2018, 01:56 AM
My formerly close friend who was a Punjabi Rajput from Faisalabad but originally from Ludhiana said the Janjuas were considered 'junglee' Rajputs or a little bit different to other Rajput clans, i dont know what he meant can you elaborate

Interestingly there is a Punjabi Indian singer called Labh Janjua

Junglee as in violent and reckless? Or Jaanglee as in the people who live close to the forested areas near the rivers and rear cattle? If former, I can't say anything at all about that. If latter, well that is a term used for people living close to the rivers in Sahiwal-Jhang-Sargodha corridor and Janjua tribe is not native to that region. Janjuas are different from other Rajput tribes because they are not related to any so he probably meant that in this sense.

I don't know about Labh Janjua, but I highly doubt he is related to the Janjua tribe of Pakistan. If he is, his family tree would be very easy to trace.



I remember a Pakistani user from other forum who used tried his best to dissociate potowari or West punjabi rajputs in general from rajputs of Rajasthan, we had debates over it many times. So i wanted to confirm with you how they view their history. Like we talked in PM, Muslim brahmins became syed and then you have arains claiming arab ancestry, I was skeptical about Rajputs as well.

We also discussed why those Brahmins found the need to do that while Rajputs did not. Brahmin was a priestly class while Rajput's profession was secular. If that forum member was a Janjua, he had a point, but saying that all West Punjabi Rajputs do not claim descent from Rajasthani Rajputs is a claim demonstrably wrong.

parasar
01-26-2018, 03:47 AM
I agree that L1c is more recent to SA than L1a, L1c probably came via BMAC, just not sure Pallan L1c is of different origins to northern L1c

My point is that some of that L1a-L1c convergence in the Pallan is due to mixing - like L1a/L1c mixing with H in the Pallan which is why I wanted to compare - still interested in this

...

The Y lines are completely independent of each other - unlike autosomes they don't mix or recombine.

As far as L1c goes, the Tamil ones not only have separated thousands of years earlier, but have tremendous diversity, while northern South Asia shows a recent founder effect (I would include the Chechen L1c in this).

Re: R1a1, the paper is referring to three founder clades under Z93 - Z2124, M780/L657, and Y40. Not only they have the same time depths, every region of South Asia despite some variation has all three, which would be unlikely if these founders were from multiple entries.

bmoney
01-26-2018, 05:34 AM
The Y lines are completely independent of each other - unlike autosomes they don't mix or recombine.

As far as L1c goes, the Tamil ones not only have separated thousands of years earlier, but have tremendous diversity, while northern South Asia shows a recent founder effect (I would include the Chechen L1c in this).

Re: R1a1, the paper is referring to three founder clades under Z93 - Z2124, M780/L657, and Y40. Not only they have the same time depths, every region of South Asia despite some variation has all three, which would be unlikely if these founders were from multiple entries.

Yeah its plausible for sure - maybe a new subclade of L1c brought from West Asia, but that doesnt account for Baloch differences in L1a with the Pallans

What about Kalash L1c in terms of diversity

MonkeyDLuffy
01-26-2018, 02:06 PM
We also discussed why those Brahmins found the need to do that while Rajputs did not. Brahmin was a priestly class while Rajput's profession was secular. If that forum member was a Janjua, he had a point, but saying that all West Punjabi Rajputs do not claim descent from Rajasthani Rajputs is a claim demonstrably wrong.

He was Dogar if I remember.

khanabadoshi
01-26-2018, 02:11 PM
He was Dogar if I remember.

I know I've asked this before, but what are Dogars? Are they Dogris or Jatts or something else? I know a few from Lahore.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-26-2018, 02:15 PM
I know I've asked this before, but what are Dogars? Are they Dogris or Jatts or something else? I know a few from Lahore.

Tbh I have no idea, that user used to claim Dogars are exclusively muslims and found in that region only. But I have met couple of Sikh Dogars and Hindu Dogars as well.


They were nomadic livestock herders who became owners of land in the relatively arid central area where cultivation required vigorous work. Unable to adapt, they eventually lost their position with the rise of more industrious agriculturist communities, notably the Jats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogar

parasar
01-26-2018, 04:44 PM
...

What about Kalash L1c in terms of diversity

Not that low. And separated from the Pathan, Jat, Rajput variety at many loci.
774 HGDP00267 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 14 12 16 14 22 10 12 12 12 10
775 HGDP00277 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 14 12 16 14 22 10 15 12 12 10
776 HGDP00279 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 14 12 16 15 22 10 14 12 11 10
777 HGDP00281 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 14 12 16 14 22 10 15 12 11 10

Vs. Kalash R1a1 - much younger with variation at just one locus:
HGDP00302 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M017 R1a1 17 12 16 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
HGDP00307 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M017 R1a1 17 12 16 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
HGDP00313 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 16 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
HGDP00315 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 16 13 24 11 11 13 10 9

Heir of Gandhara
01-26-2018, 09:44 PM
I know I've asked this before, but what are Dogars? Are they Dogris or Jatts or something else? I know a few from Lahore.

Dogars, not to be confused with Dogras, are a Punjabi Jatt tribe mostly residing in the southern parts of the province.

Dogras, on the other hand, are an ethnolinguistic group who dwell in Jammu and parts of Himachal Pradesh. The language they speak is called Dogri.

bmoney
01-27-2018, 01:42 AM
Not that low. And separated from the Pathan, Jat, Rajput variety at many loci.
774 HGDP00267 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 14 12 16 14 22 10 12 12 12 10
775 HGDP00277 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 14 12 16 14 22 10 15 12 12 10
776 HGDP00279 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 14 12 16 15 22 10 14 12 11 10
777 HGDP00281 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M357 L3 14 12 16 14 22 10 15 12 11 10

Vs. Kalash R1a1 - much younger with variation at just one locus:
HGDP00302 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M017 R1a1 17 12 16 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
HGDP00307 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M017 R1a1 17 12 16 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
HGDP00313 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 16 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
HGDP00315 Kalash Pakistan North South Asia Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 16 13 24 11 11 13 10 9

Interesting - so possibly an earlier introduction or founding clade - fits with the BMAC theory

khanabadoshi
01-27-2018, 01:49 AM
Dogars, not to be confused with Dogras, are a Punjabi Jatt tribe mostly residing in the southern parts of the province.

Dogras, on the other hand, are an ethnolinguistic group who dwell in Jammu and parts of Himachal Pradesh. The language they speak is called Dogri.

Really from South Punjab? I only know Dogars from North, specifically Lahore. Like one the former Supreme Court Justice of Pakistan or perhaps he was member of the High Court of Lahore, can't remember which.. he was a Dogar. I knew some classmates who were also Dogar from Lahore.

Heir of Gandhara
01-27-2018, 03:19 AM
Really from South Punjab? I only know Dogars from North, specifically Lahore. Like one the former Supreme Court Justice of Pakistan or perhaps he was member of the High Court of Lahore, can't remember which.. he was a Dogar. I knew some classmates who were also Dogar from Lahore.


Dogars are a people from Ravi, Sutlej and Beas region. In Pakistan, they start gaining numbers around Faisalabad, Okara, Sahiwal and Pakpattan region from what I have observed. I have also met a few from Multan city as well. Abdul Hamid Dogar was made the Chief Justice when Musharraf declared emergency in 2007. Yes there are some Dogars around Lahore as well but above that, I can't think of any.

BMG
01-27-2018, 10:38 AM
Have you seen any Ezhava or Thiyya results before? curious

Harappa results of malayali ezhava
1 S-Indian 56.89
2 Baloch 34.2
3 Caucasian 2.2
4 SE-Asian 1.23
5 Papuan 1.2
6 SW-Asian 1.12
7 NE-Asian 1.08
8 Beringian 0.86
9 Mediterranean 0.73
10 Siberian 0.5

Tamil from Tirunelveli (possibly ezhava)
1 S-Indian 55.28
2 Baloch 34.33
3 Caucasian 3.52
4 SW-Asian 1.65
5 Papuan 1.52
6 NE-Asian 1.13
7 SE-Asian 0.99
8 NE-Euro 0.87
9 American 0.45
10 Beringian 0.17
11 Siberian 0.08

Reg uniparental markers a few i know
Ezhava ydna -R1a1a mtdna -U1a3
Ezhava ydna -R1a1a mtdna -R6
Thiyya ydna -Q1a3 mtdna -M
Thiyya ydna -L1a mtdna -?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-27-2018, 02:11 PM
Dogars are a people from Ravi, Sutlej and Beas region. In Pakistan, they start gaining numbers around Faisalabad, Okara, Sahiwal and Pakpattan region from what I have observed. I have also met a few from Multan city as well. Abdul Hamid Dogar was made the Chief Justice when Musharraf declared emergency in 2007. Yes there are some Dogars around Lahore as well but above that, I can't think of any.

Muslim Dogars were concentrated highly in Doaba (jalandhar) and Hoshiyarpur region as well. The popular punjabi folklore "Jatt Jeona Morh" is based in sangrur region and the villain of story is Dogar. I have met only 2-3 Sikh dogars from Dassua (Hoshiyarpur district) area.


Hoshiyarpur-ropar region had one of the highest muslim populations, with lots of Muslim Rajputs, Muslim gujjars (Locally known as Heer gujjars), Muslim jatts and Telis. The influence is still seen in the region, especially in food. It is very common to make "Mande" which is also called rumali roti on reversed dome like pan. When I mention it to other punjabis they look at me with confusion, but when I mention it to Pakistani punjabis whose famiily came from my region, they still make it to this day. Also we have Masjid in almost every single village. Although majority of them have turned into ruins since no one is there to take care of them.

bmoney
01-27-2018, 03:23 PM
Harappa results of malayali ezhava
1 S-Indian 56.89
2 Baloch 34.2
3 Caucasian 2.2
4 SE-Asian 1.23
5 Papuan 1.2
6 SW-Asian 1.12
7 NE-Asian 1.08
8 Beringian 0.86
9 Mediterranean 0.73
10 Siberian 0.5

Tamil from Tirunelveli (possibly ezhava)
1 S-Indian 55.28
2 Baloch 34.33
3 Caucasian 3.52
4 SW-Asian 1.65
5 Papuan 1.52
6 NE-Asian 1.13
7 SE-Asian 0.99
8 NE-Euro 0.87
9 American 0.45
10 Beringian 0.17
11 Siberian 0.08

Reg uniparental markers a few i know
Ezhava ydna -R1a1a mtdna -U1a3
Ezhava ydna -R1a1a mtdna -R6
Thiyya ydna -Q1a3 mtdna -M
Thiyya ydna -L1a mtdna -?

Interesting - R1a but low to no NE Euro component

BMG
01-27-2018, 04:12 PM
Interesting - R1a but low to no NE Euro component

I dont know the harappa results of the R1a ones . That is another guy . he hasn't tested for haplos i think .
The tamil guys ydna is J2a and mtdna U1a3 . I dont know for sure his caste .

prashantvaidwan
01-27-2018, 05:33 PM
Haryanvi jat claiming Marathi ancestry..?? Ror community in Haryana claim Marathi link.... Not jat.. Ror resides in Karnal area and claim they are descendants of marathas who settled here after third panipat war in 1761 between abdali and marathas... But they don't look like marathas but Haryanvi jats

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/society-the-arts/story/20120123-haryana-rods-trace-their-lineage-to-maratha-soldiers-third-battle-of-panipat-756978-2012-01-14



any jat clan,(sikh/hindu) origin from Rajput is just a bard story. I m yet to meet any jat who claim this..

prashantvaidwan
01-27-2018, 05:48 PM
Chandel Rajput has hardly any connection with grewal jat.. Chandela probably originated from bhar/gond tribe in bundelkhand area ..get any Chandel Rajput of up tested, will be found of H y haplo most probably..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandel_(Rajput_clan)

parasar
01-27-2018, 11:10 PM
Chandel Rajput has hardly any connection with grewal jat.. Chandela probably originated from bhar/gond tribe in bundelkhand area ..get any Chandel Rajput of up tested, will be found of H y haplo most probably..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandel_(Rajput_clan)
47 samples 1 H1, 2 H1a, 3 R1a1, 41 R2
"most of the samples in the Kshatriya cluster belong to the Chandel community"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590678/

Sapporo
03-08-2018, 07:17 AM
Punjabi :



Sapporo (Punjabi Jatt 4):

Cambodian: 0%
Iranian: 35%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 13%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 52%
Yemen Jew: 0%


I presume the Cambodian must be ASI related since I score 0% and some of the Punjabi Jatts scoring less Tamil than me score it. It's also too different from the normal East Eurasian we score (Siberian/Amerindian/Beringian) or the NE Asian Kashmiris and some Paharis score. I don't really like Razib using Tamils (must be something like a Tamil Gounder) though since they're such a huge mix between Iran N + ASI but I guess he wants to expand and change references slowly so doesn't want to rush to using South Indian tribals or using Onge, etc.



Punjabi Jatt 2:

Cambodian: 1%
Iranian: 39%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 12%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 48%
Yemen Jew: 0%




Punjabi Jatt 3: (Muslim?)

Cambodian: 0%
Iranian: 38%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 9%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 53%
Yemen Jew: 0%




Punjabi Jatt 5:

Cambodian: 1%
Iranian: 36%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 15%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 48%
Yemen Jew: 0%


I'm curious who the Pashtun_Tajik individual is. They score no East Asian so their Tajik side is very Pashtun like.

Pashtun_Tajik:



pashtun_tajik_1

Cambodian: 0%
Iranian: 49%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 13%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 38%
Yemen Jew: 0%


Some Nepali Brahmins added as well:



nepali_brahmin_1

Cambodian: 0%
Iranian: 24%
Japanese: 7%
Lithuanian: 12%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 57%
Yemen Jew: 0%




nepal_brahmin_khas_1

Cambodian: 1%
Iranian: 27%
Japanese: 4%
Lithuanian: 12%
Papuan: 1%
Tamil: 56%
Yemen Jew: 0%


Kashmiri:



kashmiri_syed_1

Cambodian: 0%
Iranian: 21%
Japanese: 3%
Lithuanian: 11%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 65%
Yemen Jew: 0%




Kashmir_Suniareh_1

Cambodian: 0%
Iranian: 30%
Japanese: 1%
Lithuanian: 13%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 57%
Yemen Jew: 0%


Pakistani Sindhi - this might be the Baloch/Iranian shifted forum member with paternal ancestry from Lasbela District:



pakistani_sindhi_1

Cambodian: 0%
Iranian: 55%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 2%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 42%
Yemen Jew: 0%


Both the Gujarati and Sindhi Lohana are very Iranian shifted albeit one scores very little Lithuanian versus the other and instead scores higher Iranian.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=2076417393

note: I think the Bangladesh_Comilla_2 and UP_mohajjir_1 results are identical because Razib needs to clean up the spreadsheet? They probably make more sense for the UP Mohajir though.

Reza
03-08-2018, 08:22 AM
note: I think the Bangladesh_Comilla_2 and UP_mohajjir_1 results are identical because Razib needs to clean up the spreadsheet? They probably make more sense for the UP Mohajir though.

Yeah, I just emailed him about that. Makes more sense for a UPite than a Bengali with the 0% Cambodian though scoring some Japanese.

Agree about the components used, and he has updated from his first set of references used. Imagine this is going to be a slightly longer term project ..

Sapporo
03-08-2018, 11:11 AM
I believe the Bihari Babhan are Brahmin? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Eastern Brahmins:



Bihar_ Babhan_1

Cambodian: 1%
Iranian: 23%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 10%
Papuan: 1%
Tamil: 65%
Yemen Jew: 0%



Bengal_UP_Brahmin_1

Cambodian: 2%
Iranian: 16%
Japanese: 3%
Lithuanian: 9%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 71%
Yemen Jew: 0%

Northwest Brahmin




Jammu_Dogra_Brahmin_1

Cambodian: 1%
Iranian: 25%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 11%
Papuan: 1%
Tamil: 62%
Yemen Jew: 0%

parasar
03-08-2018, 06:06 PM
I believe the Bihari Babhan are Brahmin? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Eastern Brahmins:

Bihar_ Babhan_1


Cambodian: 1%
Iranian: 23%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 10%
Papuan: 1%
Tamil: 65%
Yemen Jew: 0%

Bengal_UP_Brahmin_1

Cambodian: 2%
Iranian: 16%
Japanese: 3%
Lithuanian: 9%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 71%
Yemen Jew: 0%

Northwest Brahmin

Jammu_Dogra_Brahmin_1

Cambodian: 1%
Iranian: 25%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanian: 11%
Papuan: 1%
Tamil: 62%
Yemen Jew: 0%

Yes Brahman is the Sanskrit version of Babhan (Pali).

heksindhi
03-08-2018, 07:44 PM
Pakistani Sindhi - this might be the Baloch/Iranian shifted forum member with paternal ancestry from Lasbela District:


Yes, Pakistani_Sindhi_1 is linked to my results

poi
03-08-2018, 08:21 PM
I have asked Razib to update mine since it was with a lower genotype rate 23andme v5 chip. Hopefully, he updates with the FTDNA or the combined one. Let's see if he can make use of the combined file (which has over 1.2 million SNPs)

Kulin
03-08-2018, 09:53 PM
Is it just me, or do the genetic groupings, seem like a re-hashed version of the Harappa World Calculator.

Mingle
03-08-2018, 10:31 PM
Is it just me, or do the genetic groupings, seem like a re-hashed version of the Harappa World Calculator.

I prefer the HarappaWorld one. At least HarappaWorld separated CHG from Iran Neolithic. Weird that Razib Khan didn't.

Sapporo
03-09-2018, 04:23 AM
Eastern Brahmin:



West_East_Bengal_Brahmin_1

Cambodian: 0%
Iranian: 14%
Japanese: 2%
Lithuanian: 11%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 72%
Yemen Jew: 0%

Nepali Brahmins:



nepali_brahmin_1b

Cambodian: 3%
Iranian: 24%
Japanese: 5%
Lithuanian: 12%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 57%
Yemen Jew: 0%



nepal_brahmin_1c

Cambodian: 5%
Iranian: 26%
Japanese: 1%
Lithuanian: 11%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 57%
Yemen Jew: 0%


I prefer the HarappaWorld one. At least HarappaWorld separated CHG from Iran Neolithic. Weird that Razib Khan didn't.

Razib isn't that experienced with admixture calculators. I can only presume he is slowly starting with limited population references meant to cover most admixture (excluding those SSA admixed since no SSA reference) for South Asians using broad components based on moderns (such as Iranian, Tamil, Lithuanian, etc.) before moving on to more reference populations or ancients. I'm not entirely sure though.

poi
03-09-2018, 05:49 AM
Is "thai_1" from his spreadsheet half-European?


thai_1

28% Cambodian
26% Iranian
17% Japanese
28% Lithuanian
0% Papuan
1% Tamil
0% Yemenite Jew

Sapporo
03-09-2018, 07:27 AM
@poi

I believe so. They have a similar 1/2 Euro like profile similar to Punjabi Jatt 1 who Razib confirmed to me was half Euro as he was alerted to so after the fact by the participant.



Punjab_Jatt_1 - Euro admixed

2% Cambodian
41% Iranian
0% Japanese
38% Lithuanian
0% Papuan
18% Tamil
0% Yemenite Jew

poi
03-09-2018, 03:58 PM
@poir

I believe so. They have a similar 1/2 Euro like profile similar to Punjabi Jatt 1 who Razib confirmed to me was half Euro as he was alerted to so after the fact by the participant.



Punjab_Jatt_1 - Euro admixed

2% Cambodian
41% Iranian
0% Japanese
38% Lithuanian
0% Papuan
18% Tamil
0% Yemenite Jew

I don't understand the point for adding recently mixed people like that. Just noisy imo.

Mingle
03-09-2018, 04:19 PM
I don't understand the point for adding recently mixed people like that. Just noisy imo.

Agreed. Also, if someone is half-Euro, then it is very misleading to just say 'Punjabi Jatt 1'. They should be referred to as 'European Punjabi Jatt mix' or something like that. Ideally, they shouldn't be included at all though as I don't see the point.

Sapporo
03-09-2018, 04:48 PM
Agreed. Also, if someone is half-Euro, then it is very misleading to just say 'Punjabi Jatt 1'. They should be referred to as 'European Punjabi Jatt mix' or something like that. Ideally, they shouldn't be included as all though as I don't see the point.

That's the point I made to Razib. However, in this case, Razib wasn't alerted to the fact that the participant was mixed until the sample was already sent and analyzed. Still, he should have changed the label once he saw the admixture profile.

Personally, I agree though. Recently mixed individuals shouldn't be included. Unless you're mixed with different groups from within Central/South Asia and maybe parts of West or East Asia, your data isn't really necessary for the project nor is it going to be of much use. I could see why someone who is half South Asian would still want to join but they need to be much more up front about their mixed ancestry then.

khanabadoshi
03-09-2018, 09:40 PM
So I just e-mailed Razib Khan the following data. Figured I'd post it here as I broke down what everyone is in one go:






Myself -- .4375 Saraiki-Baloch (Muzaffargarh [Dashti]); .25 Kashmiri (Srinagar [Qureshi/Manto]); .1875 Kho (Drosh); .0625 Uzbek (Tashkent ); .0625 Unknown South Asian (via Delhi). -- yDNA: R1a-Z283>Z282>Y17491>YP4858 via Dashti Baloch lineage; mtDNA: A8a via Chitrali/Kho lineage



Paternal Uncle -- .50 Saraiki-Baloch (Muzaffargarh [Dashti]); .50 Kashmiri (Srinagar [Qureshi/Manto]) -- yDNA: R1a-YP4858 via Dashti Baloch lineage; mtDNA:U7a3b via Kashmiri lineage

Maternal Aunt -- .375 Saraiki-Baloch (Muzaffargarh [Dashti]); .125 Unknown South Asian (via Delhi); .375 Kho (Drosh); .125 Uzbek (Tashkent ) -- yDNA: R1a-YP4858 via Dashti Baloch lineage; mtDNA: A8a via Kho lineage
Maternal Grandfather Sister -- .75 Saraiki-Baloch (Muzaffargarh [Dashti]); .25 Unknown South Asian (via Delhi) -- yDNA: R1a-YP4858 via Dashti Baloch lineage; mtDNA: R5a2 via unknown lineage

Maternal Grandmother -- .75 Kho (Drosh); .25 Uzbek (Tashkent ) -- yDNA: Ra1a1avia Uzbek lineage; mtDNA: A8a via Kho lineage



Maternal Grandmother Brother -- .75 Kho (Drosh); .25 Uzbek (Tashkent ) -- yDNA: R1a1avia Uzbek lineage; mtDNA: A8a via Kho lineage



1st Cousin -- .25 Saraiki-Baloch (Muzaffargarh [Dashti]); .25 Kashmiri (Srinagar [Qureshi/Manto]); .50 Multani-Pashtun (Multan [Khakwani/Tareen]) -- yDNA: R1a-YP4858 via Dashti Baloch lineage; mtDNA:M5a2a1a via Pashtun lineage




2nd Cousin -- .50 Saraiki-Baloch (Bahawalpur [Leghari]); .1875 Saraiki-Baloch (Muzaffargarh [Dashti]); .25 Punjabi (Lahore [Gujjar/Rajput]) .0625 Unknown South Asian (via Delhi) -- yDNA: Ra1a1avia Leghari Baloch lineage; mtDNA: U2b1 via Punjabi lineage






Unrelated Pashtun -- 100% FATA-Pashtun (Mohmand Agency [Mohmand]) -- yDNA: R1a1avia Mohmand Pashtun lineage; mtDNA: H via Mohmand Pashtun lineage




[*=left]Unrelated Saraiki -- .50 Syed (Multan); .50 Multani-Pashtun (Multan [Durrani]) -- yDNA: R1b1b2avia Syed lineage; mtDNA: U2a1 via Durrani Pashtun lineage
[*=left]Unrelated Kho -- [B]100% Kho (Kesu Drosh [Singanali]) -- yDNA:[B] N/A; mtDNA: N/A
[*=left]Unrelated Kho -- [B]100% Kho (Sishikoh Drosh [Singanali]) -- yDNA:[B] N/A; mtDNA: C

[*=left]Unrelated Punjabi/Kashmiri -- .50 Rajput (Lahore); .50 Kashmiri (Lahore ) -- yDNA: R(needs further testing) via Rajput lineage; mtDNA: M5a2 via Butt Kashmiri lineage





[B]





Let's see if he includes them. He might look at the list and think, "efff this..." LOL.

03-09-2018, 09:47 PM
Got mines from Razib a few days ago

84% Tamil
5% Lithuanian
4% Cambodian
4% Japanese
3% Iranian

03-09-2018, 09:54 PM
Got mines from Razib a few days ago

84% Tamil
5% Lithuanian
4% Cambodian
4% Japanese
3% Iranian

Reza, quick question

Given that my maternal grandmother was of fully Tamil descent, could the Lithuanian be a proxy for recent European ancestry as opposed to the proto-Indo-Europeans and the fact that my family were living in Guyana for at least a hundred years. I figured that most of the indentured servants tended to come from lower castes and so the Indo European percentage would be low.

Reza
03-09-2018, 11:20 PM
Bengali results - split them by region / grouping if possible.

Sylhet [NE Bangladesh]



Reza - bangladesh_syhlet_1

Cambodians 9%
Iranians 3%
Japanese 6%
Lithuanians 7%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 75%
YemeniteJews 0%




Reza Mother - bangladesh_syhlet_4

Cambodians 9%
Iranians 8%
Japanese 4%
Lithuanians 6%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 73%
YemeniteJews 0%




Reza Father - bangladesh_syhlet_3

Cambodians 8%
Iranians 0%
Japanese 5%
Lithuanians 6%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 81%
YemeniteJews 0%




Reza Wife - bangladesh_syhlet_5

Cambodians 4%
Iranians 9%
Japanese 9%
Lithuanians 3%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 74%
YemeniteJews 0%




Reza Maternal Cousin - bangladesh_syhlet_2

Cambodians 8%
Iranians 3%
Japanese 5%
Lithuanians 7%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 76%
YemeniteJews 2%




Tanzil - bangladesh_syhlet_zamindar_1

Cambodians 8%
Iranians 5%
Japanese 7%
Lithuanians 5%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 75%
YemeniteJews 0%




Tanzil Relative - Bangladesh_1

Cambodians 9%
Iranians 0%
Japanese 8%
Lithuanians 2%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 79%
YemeniteJews 1%




?Abdullahyusuf - bangladesh_syhlet_6

Cambodians 12%
Iranians 7%
Japanese 3%
Lithuanians 4%
Papuan 2%
Tamil 72%
YemeniteJews 0%


East / SE Bangladesh



Zayd - Bangladesh_Comilla_1

Cambodians 6%
Iranians 2%
Japanese 8%
Lithuanians 7%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 75%
YemeniteJews 0%




Bangladesh_Comilla_2

Cambodians 10%
Iranians 0%
Japanese 4%
Lithuanians 6%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 78%
YemeniteJews 0%




Searcher - Bangladesh_Chittagong_Rangpur_1

Cambodians 7%
Iranians 0%
Japanese 9%
Lithuanians 6%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 76%
YemeniteJews 0%


Bengali Kayastha:



Bengali_Kayastha_1

Cambodians 8%
Iranians 1%
Japanese 6%
Lithuanians 3%
Papuan 1%
Tamil 81%
YemeniteJews 0%


Bengali Brahmin:



West_East_Bengal_Brahmin_1

Cambodians 0%
Iranians 14%
Japanese 2%
Lithuanians 11%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 72%
YemeniteJews 0%




Mixed - Bengal_UP_Brahmin_1

Cambodians 2%
Iranians 16%
Japanese 3%
Lithuanians 9%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 71%
YemeniteJews 0%


Non specified origin Bengali:



West_East_Bengali_1

Cambodians 7%
Iranians 0%
Japanese 5%
Lithuanians 8%
Papuan 0%
Tamil 80%
YemeniteJews 0%


Interesting patterns.

Apart from the Bengali Brahmin samples, the others, from various regions of Bangladesh as well as Kayastha sample are remarkably similar.

All have similar amount of East Asian 13-17%.

The Lithuanian varies 3-8% though interestingly the Iranian can be non existent or upto 9%.

Only 1 sample with yemeni 2%.

Saad2016
03-09-2018, 11:23 PM
interestin results

Reza
03-09-2018, 11:32 PM
Reza, quick question

Given that my maternal grandmother was of fully Tamil descent, could the Lithuanian be a proxy for recent European ancestry as opposed to the proto-Indo-Europeans and the fact that my family were living in Guyana for at least a hundred years. I figured that most of the indentured servants tended to come from lower castes and so the Indo European percentage would be low.

I can't quite recall your background, but paternally possibly Bengali/Bihari/UP to Guyana, and maternally Tamil + definite non subcontinental?

If you definitely have some European ancestry, I'm sure that will have contributed to the Lithuanian, but those results aren't out of keeping with Bengali / possibly Bihari results.

You do score some definite E Asian, which would fit with Bengali, but I don't know what your recent ancestry is. Similarly your O1b y-dna is consistent with austro-asiatic (or even Dai) ancestry.

Razib is using modern day populations, so it's difficult to extrapolate clearly what is Indo-European vs not .. but clearly Lithuanian would suggest steppe ancestry. With Iran_N hidden in Iranian and Tamil. Most of the ASI equivalent will be in Tamil, Papuan and possibly Cambodian given that NW Indians are scoring it too.

03-10-2018, 02:50 AM
I can't quite recall your background, but paternally possibly Bengali/Bihari/UP to Guyana, and maternally Tamil + definite non subcontinental?

If you definitely have some European ancestry, I'm sure that will have contributed to the Lithuanian, but those results aren't out of keeping with Bengali / possibly Bihari results.

You do score some definite E Asian, which would fit with Bengali, but I don't know what your recent ancestry is. Similarly your O1b y-dna is consistent with austro-asiatic (or even Dai) ancestry.

Razib is using modern day populations, so it's difficult to extrapolate clearly what is Indo-European vs not .. but clearly Lithuanian would suggest steppe ancestry. With Iran_N hidden in Iranian and Tamil. Most of the ASI equivalent will be in Tamil, Papuan and possibly Cambodian given that NW Indians are scoring it too.

I can't say where my East Asian originated from but I've heard that my maternal grandfather was 1/4th Chinese, but when I heard of my y-haplogroup and my possible Bengali roots, that opened up the possibility for Japanese ancestry. Not to mention that his mother had possible Tamil and Amazonian ancestry in addition to the East Asian

bmoney
03-10-2018, 03:52 AM
Got mines from Razib a few days ago

84% Tamil
5% Lithuanian
4% Cambodian
4% Japanese
3% Iranian

That Cambodian + Japanese + y-O suggests significant Eastern Indian ancestry

bmoney
03-10-2018, 03:54 AM
I don't understand the point for adding recently mixed people like that. Just noisy imo.

Poi could you whip up a PCA of all of us :P

Less components would look good on a 2D PCA

bmoney
03-10-2018, 04:01 AM
Bengali results - split them by region / grouping if possible.

So Sylhet scores similar E Asian (Japanese+Cambodian) to Comilla/Chittagong

What about Rajshahi/Dhaka Bangladeshis? is there a huge difference?

khanabadoshi
03-10-2018, 02:24 PM
He replied:



thanks bro! i'll send you IDs late. that's a lot of data


:heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh:

VelvetNono
03-10-2018, 07:28 PM
Background: 3/4 Afghan Pashtun and 1/4 Afghan Tajik (With some Dardic (Pashai and possibly Nuristani) admixture as well).

My Results:

Iranians: 49%
Tamil: 38%
Lithuanians: 13%
Cambodians: 0%
Japanese: 0%
Papuan: 0%
Yemenite Jew: 0%

poi
03-10-2018, 07:36 PM
PCA - >97% Variance coverage

Biplot - 1st Quadrant - Lithuanian, 2nd Quadrant - Cambodian and Japanese, 3rd Quadrant - Tamil, 4th Quadrant - Iranian
22030
https://i.imgur.com/RihiAW2r.png
https://i.imgur.com/RihiAW2.png

PCA
22031
https://i.imgur.com/UeWjwuVr.png
https://i.imgur.com/UeWjwuV.png

VelvetNono
03-10-2018, 07:45 PM
PCA - >97% Variance coverage

Biplot - 1st Quadrant - Lithuanian, 2nd Quadrant - Cambodian and Japanese, 3rd Quadrant - Tamil, 4th Quadrant - Iranian
22030
https://i.imgur.com/RihiAW2r.png
https://i.imgur.com/RihiAW2.png

PCA
22031
https://i.imgur.com/UeWjwuVr.png
https://i.imgur.com/UeWjwuV.png

The "Pashtun-Tajik" is me (since I'm the only one from Razib Khan's list). So I guess I'm the outlier (which is not surprising based on my background).

khanabadoshi
03-10-2018, 08:04 PM
The "Pashtun-Tajik" is me (since I'm the only one from Razib Khan's list). So I guess I'm the outlier (which is not surprising based on my background).

Was wondering if that was you or Rukha, or someone else.

MonkeyDLuffy
03-11-2018, 04:19 AM
Nevermind.

bmoney
03-22-2018, 08:01 AM
PCA - >97% Variance coverage

Biplot - 1st Quadrant - Lithuanian, 2nd Quadrant - Cambodian and Japanese, 3rd Quadrant - Tamil, 4th Quadrant - Iranian
22030
https://i.imgur.com/RihiAW2r.png
https://i.imgur.com/RihiAW2.png

PCA
22031
https://i.imgur.com/UeWjwuVr.png
https://i.imgur.com/UeWjwuV.png

Poi is 'Nair' - high_caste_nair1 (me)

Smashorpass
03-24-2018, 04:33 AM
By the way, I was Nepali Khas Bahun on one of the results posted.

bmoney
03-24-2018, 07:49 AM
Poi is 'Nair' - high_caste_nair1 (me)

Sorry poi that was a question

Raza94
03-27-2018, 05:46 PM
Would love to send my stuff over to Razib but I cant seem to find an email or anything to send it over. How did you guys send it to him?

MonkeyDLuffy
03-27-2018, 07:38 PM
Would love to send my stuff over to Razib but I cant seem to find an email or anything to send it over. How did you guys send it to him?

contactgnxp @ gmail dot com

khanabadoshi
03-28-2018, 02:18 PM
contactgnxp @ gmail dot com

How often does he update? Where does he post the results?

MonkeyDLuffy
03-28-2018, 04:22 PM
How often does he update? Where does he post the results?

He did the last update a month or two ago. He posts them in the spreadsheet. Check out the doc link in original post.

niravsss
04-04-2018, 09:42 AM
Hi, could you help me understand the difference between Gujarati A/B/C/D in the post above? Thanks in advnce!

Sapporo
04-04-2018, 10:54 AM
Hi, could you help me understand the difference between Gujarati A/B/C/D in the post above? Thanks in advnce!

Which post are you referring to?

niravsss
04-04-2018, 11:26 AM
For one, Razib's N Kannadi reference sample is 98% Tamil and 2% Dai - perhaps a north Kannara tribal.

Gujarati D is supposedly from a well off village headmen (cf. Patil, Patidar, Patel, etc.) group living in Houston.

See here. It says Gujarati D. Have also come across Gujarati A/B/C else where. But dont know how to read the difference between A/B/C/D

MonkeyDLuffy
04-04-2018, 11:58 AM
See here. It says Gujarati D. Have also come across Gujarati A/B/C else where. But dont know how to read the difference between A/B/C/D

It is divided by how much ASI (Ancestral South Indian) they get. Gujarati A is the least ASI shifted group which includes Lohanas, Brahmins etc. The ASI increases with the alphabets with Gujarati D scoring highest ASI followed by Gujarati C and B.

niravsss
04-04-2018, 12:19 PM
It is divided by how much ASI (Ancestral South Indian) they get. Gujarati A is the least ASI shifted group which includes Lohanas, Brahmins etc. The ASI increases with the alphabets with Gujarati D scoring highest ASI followed by Gujarati C and B.

Thanks! If lohanas and brahmins are part of Gujarati A grouping, would you know who forms B, C & D group? Also why only Gujaratis are classified like this? Dont see any other ethinicity with similar A to D grouping (my knowledge is limited admittedly). Any link where I can study this will be really helpful.

Sapporo
04-04-2018, 01:29 PM
Thanks! If lohanas and brahmins are part of Gujarati A grouping, would you know who forms B, C & D group? Also why only Gujaratis are classified like this? Dont see any other ethinicity with similar A to D grouping (my knowledge is limited admittedly). Any link where I can study this will be really helpful.

The Gujarati A, B, C and D are collected from diaspora Gujaratis from Houston, Texas which is home to a large Gujarati diaspora population. The reason they are divided into such groups is based on admixture clustering. From my limited knowledge, Gujarati B are supposedly mid-caste groups and D are low-caste/dalit like individuals in terms of admixture (not necessarily actual social standing in IRL). As for Gujarati A, we weren't told they are Lohana and Brahmin but we can infer as such based on their admixture results. Some individuals score very similar to individual Lohana results we've seen and some are Steppe shifted with similarity to Brahmins of North/Northwest India.

As for Gujarati C, I don't know what to describe them as other than something between Gujarati B and Gujarati D. Razib Khan tried to analyze the Gujarati samples previously quite some time ago. In the past, they were just divided into Gujarati A and Gujarati B with one group forming a tight cluster (likely related Patels based on admixture similarity to Patel participants in Harappa Ancestry Project) and the other individuals being loosely divided into what we now refer to as Gujarati A, B and C. D are probably the Patels in this case.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/02/who-are-those-houston-gujus/#.WsTTptPwbAI

note: The Gujarati A and Gujarati B labeling is often swapped with Gujarati A sometimes forming the tighter cluster and at other times forming the loose cluster and vice versa with the Gujarati B forming the tighter cluster or loose cluster based on arbitrary naming mechanisms by whomever is labeling them. For Razib in his analysis above, the Gujarati A are the loose cluster and Gujarati B are the tight related cluster. However, for Zack, in his Harappa analysis, the Gujarati B are the loose cluster and Gujarati A are the tight cluster.

http://www.harappadna.org/tag/sindhi/

note: That's all I honestly know. So, I can't really answer any questions beyond what I wrote.

MonkeyDLuffy
04-04-2018, 11:28 PM
Thanks! If lohanas and brahmins are part of Gujarati A grouping, would you know who forms B, C & D group? Also why only Gujaratis are classified like this? Dont see any other ethinicity with similar A to D grouping (my knowledge is limited admittedly). Any link where I can study this will be really helpful.

I agree there should've been labeling among other South Asian ethnicities as well. I guess they were able to get more samples from Gujarati people. Rest Sapporo has replied with all knowledge we've on the subject.

Kulin
04-05-2018, 02:14 AM
The Gujarati A, B, C and D are collected from diaspora Gujaratis from Houston, Texas which is home to a large Gujarati diaspora population. The reason they are divided into such groups is based on admixture clustering. From my limited knowledge, Gujarati B are supposedly mid-caste groups and D are low-caste/dalit like individuals in terms of admixture (not necessarily actual social standing in IRL). As for Gujarati A, we weren't told they are Lohana and Brahmin but we can infer as such based on their admixture results. Some individuals score very similar to individual Lohana results we've seen and some are Steppe shifted with similarity to Brahmins of North/Northwest India.

As for Gujarati C, I don't know what to describe them as other than something between Gujarati B and Gujarati D. Razib Khan tried to analyze the Gujarati samples previously quite some time ago. In the past, they were just divided into Gujarati A and Gujarati B with one group forming a tight cluster (likely related Patels based on admixture similarity to Patel participants in Harappa Ancestry Project) and the other individuals being loosely divided into what we now refer to as Gujarati A, B and C. D are probably the Patels in this case.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/02/who-are-those-houston-gujus/#.WsTTptPwbAI

note: The Gujarati A and Gujarati B labeling is often swapped with Gujarati A sometimes forming the tighter cluster and at other times forming the loose cluster and vice versa with the Gujarati B forming the tighter cluster or loose cluster based on arbitrary naming mechanisms by whomever is labeling them. For Razib in his analysis above, the Gujarati A are the loose cluster and Gujarati B are the tight related cluster. However, for Zack, in his Harappa analysis, the Gujarati B are the loose cluster and Gujarati A are the tight cluster.

http://www.harappadna.org/tag/sindhi/

note: That's all I honestly know. So, I can't really answer any questions beyond what I wrote.


Do you any Gujarati Patel results to share? There's only one on Harappa, despite the community being the absolute largest in Gujarat.

Sapporo
04-05-2018, 09:17 AM
Do you any Gujarati Patel results to share? There's only one on Harappa, despite the community being the absolute largest in Gujarat.

Honestly, I think I've seen one other Patel who scored similar to the 2 Harappa participants. However, I was messing around with kits on GEDMatch and found this guy and his mother:

M865468 - Rohan Patel

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 43.52
2 Baloch 35.65
3 NE-Euro 12.03
4 Caucasian 4.42
5 Siberian 1.37
6 Beringian 0.93
7 Mediterranean 0.74
8 SE-Asian 0.52
9 NE-Asian 0.38
10 SW-Asian 0.28
11 Pygmy 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 2.19
2 vaish (reich) 3.06
3 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 4.31
4 up-brahmin (harappa) 4.34
5 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 4.36
6 bihari-muslim (harappa) 5.46
7 gujarati-b (hapmap) 5.69
8 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.94
9 meghawal (reich) 6.07
10 gujarati (harappa) 6.53
11 maharashtrian (harappa) 6.55
12 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 7.05
13 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 7.56
14 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 7.61
15 ap-brahmin (xing) 7.72
16 tn-brahmin (xing) 7.9
17 rajasthani (harappa) 8.51
18 srivastava (reich) 8.72
19 up (harappa) 8.97
20 bihari (harappa) 9.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 12.6% srivastava (reich) @ 1.82
2 95.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.1% ap-madiga (xing) @ 1.84
3 96.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.6% mala (reich) @ 1.84
4 96.2% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.8% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 1.85
5 96.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.6% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.85
6 95.7% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.3% bhil (reich) @ 1.86
7 95.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.1% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.86
8 96.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.9% madiga (reich) @ 1.86
9 96.2% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.8% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.86
10 96.5% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.5% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.86
11 94.3% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 5.7% kol (metspalu) @ 1.86
12 94.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 5.6% naidu (reich) @ 1.87
13 95.5% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.5% kamsali (reich) @ 1.87
14 95.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.9% vysya (reich) @ 1.87
15 95.6% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.4% chamar (metspalu) @ 1.87
16 93.5% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 6.5% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.87
17 96.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.6% kurumba (reich) @ 1.87
18 95.8% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.2% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.87
19 91.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 8.6% kanjar (metspalu) @ 1.88
20 94.2% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 5.8% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.9


M009101- His mother Monica Patel

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.78
2 Baloch 35.01
3 NE-Euro 8.22
4 Caucasian 2.57
5 NE-Asian 1.62
6 Beringian 1.46
7 Mediterranean 1.2
8 Papuan 0.76
9 American 0.33
10 Siberian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 ap-brahmin (xing) 3.43
2 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 3.84
3 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.37
4 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 4.46
5 bihari (harappa) 4.53
6 up (harappa) 4.58
7 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 4.63
8 maharashtrian (harappa) 4.63
9 srivastava (reich) 4.66
10 gujarati (harappa) 4.71
11 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 4.88
12 rajasthani (harappa) 4.92
13 vaish (reich) 4.93
14 meghawal (reich) 5.23
15 dharkar (metspalu) 5.37
16 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 5.46
17 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.48
18 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.59
19 caribbean-indian (harappa) 6.02
20 kerala-nair (harappa) 6.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.3% kanjar (metspalu) + 38.7% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.28
2 54.6% kanjar (metspalu) + 45.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 1.61
3 79.2% kanjar (metspalu) + 20.8% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 1.63
4 56.4% vaish (reich) + 43.6% kanjar (metspalu) @ 1.74
5 71.1% kanjar (metspalu) + 28.9% nepalese-a (xing) @ 1.74
6 58.1% up-muslim (metspalu) + 41.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 1.78
7 77.9% kanjar (metspalu) + 22.1% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.78
8 64.9% up-muslim (metspalu) + 35.1% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.8
9 53% vaish (reich) + 47% up-muslim (metspalu) @ 1.86
10 73.1% kanjar (metspalu) + 26.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.86
11 52.2% up-brahmin (harappa) + 47.8% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.88
12 62.6% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 37.4% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.91
13 55.6% up-brahmin (harappa) + 44.4% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.92
14 72.8% kanjar (metspalu) + 27.2% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.94
15 53.4% up-brahmin (harappa) + 46.6% lodi (reich) @ 1.97
16 58.1% up-brahmin (harappa) + 41.9% kol (metspalu) @ 1.98
17 58.8% dharkar (metspalu) + 41.2% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 2
18 65.7% dharkar (metspalu) + 34.3% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 2.03
19 57.2% vaish (reich) + 42.8% tharu (metspalu) @ 2.06
20 54.3% tharu (metspalu) + 45.7% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 2.06

Kulin
04-06-2018, 03:02 AM
Honestly, I think I've seen one other Patel who scored similar to the 2 Harappa participants. However, I was messing around with kits on GEDMatch and found this guy and his mother:

M865468 - Rohan Patel

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 43.52
2 Baloch 35.65
3 NE-Euro 12.03
4 Caucasian 4.42
5 Siberian 1.37
6 Beringian 0.93
7 Mediterranean 0.74
8 SE-Asian 0.52
9 NE-Asian 0.38
10 SW-Asian 0.28
11 Pygmy 0.15

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 2.19
2 vaish (reich) 3.06
3 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 4.31
4 up-brahmin (harappa) 4.34
5 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 4.36
6 bihari-muslim (harappa) 5.46
7 gujarati-b (hapmap) 5.69
8 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.94
9 meghawal (reich) 6.07
10 gujarati (harappa) 6.53
11 maharashtrian (harappa) 6.55
12 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 7.05
13 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 7.56
14 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 7.61
15 ap-brahmin (xing) 7.72
16 tn-brahmin (xing) 7.9
17 rajasthani (harappa) 8.51
18 srivastava (reich) 8.72
19 up (harappa) 8.97
20 bihari (harappa) 9.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 12.6% srivastava (reich) @ 1.82
2 95.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.1% ap-madiga (xing) @ 1.84
3 96.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.6% mala (reich) @ 1.84
4 96.2% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.8% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 1.85
5 96.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.6% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.85
6 95.7% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.3% bhil (reich) @ 1.86
7 95.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.1% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.86
8 96.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.9% madiga (reich) @ 1.86
9 96.2% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.8% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.86
10 96.5% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.5% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.86
11 94.3% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 5.7% kol (metspalu) @ 1.86
12 94.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 5.6% naidu (reich) @ 1.87
13 95.5% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.5% kamsali (reich) @ 1.87
14 95.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.9% vysya (reich) @ 1.87
15 95.6% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.4% chamar (metspalu) @ 1.87
16 93.5% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 6.5% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.87
17 96.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 3.6% kurumba (reich) @ 1.87
18 95.8% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 4.2% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.87
19 91.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 8.6% kanjar (metspalu) @ 1.88
20 94.2% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 5.8% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.9


M009101- His mother Monica Patel

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.78
2 Baloch 35.01
3 NE-Euro 8.22
4 Caucasian 2.57
5 NE-Asian 1.62
6 Beringian 1.46
7 Mediterranean 1.2
8 Papuan 0.76
9 American 0.33
10 Siberian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 ap-brahmin (xing) 3.43
2 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 3.84
3 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.37
4 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 4.46
5 bihari (harappa) 4.53
6 up (harappa) 4.58
7 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 4.63
8 maharashtrian (harappa) 4.63
9 srivastava (reich) 4.66
10 gujarati (harappa) 4.71
11 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 4.88
12 rajasthani (harappa) 4.92
13 vaish (reich) 4.93
14 meghawal (reich) 5.23
15 dharkar (metspalu) 5.37
16 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 5.46
17 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.48
18 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.59
19 caribbean-indian (harappa) 6.02
20 kerala-nair (harappa) 6.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.3% kanjar (metspalu) + 38.7% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.28
2 54.6% kanjar (metspalu) + 45.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 1.61
3 79.2% kanjar (metspalu) + 20.8% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 1.63
4 56.4% vaish (reich) + 43.6% kanjar (metspalu) @ 1.74
5 71.1% kanjar (metspalu) + 28.9% nepalese-a (xing) @ 1.74
6 58.1% up-muslim (metspalu) + 41.9% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 1.78
7 77.9% kanjar (metspalu) + 22.1% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.78
8 64.9% up-muslim (metspalu) + 35.1% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.8
9 53% vaish (reich) + 47% up-muslim (metspalu) @ 1.86
10 73.1% kanjar (metspalu) + 26.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.86
11 52.2% up-brahmin (harappa) + 47.8% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) @ 1.88
12 62.6% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 37.4% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.91
13 55.6% up-brahmin (harappa) + 44.4% dusadh (metspalu) @ 1.92
14 72.8% kanjar (metspalu) + 27.2% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) @ 1.94
15 53.4% up-brahmin (harappa) + 46.6% lodi (reich) @ 1.97
16 58.1% up-brahmin (harappa) + 41.9% kol (metspalu) @ 1.98
17 58.8% dharkar (metspalu) + 41.2% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 2
18 65.7% dharkar (metspalu) + 34.3% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 2.03
19 57.2% vaish (reich) + 42.8% tharu (metspalu) @ 2.06
20 54.3% tharu (metspalu) + 45.7% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 2.06



Hmm, interesting. The Harappa sample is super high in Baloch and with non-existent NE Euro, if I recall correctly, which seemed a bit odd to me. But, it could've been an outlier. Also, although 99% of Patels are Patidar, a certain Brahmin community in Gujarat also uses the surname to an extent, and I think there should be variation between the different types of Patels as well.

Sapporo
04-08-2018, 09:13 AM
Hmm, interesting. The Harappa sample is super high in Baloch and with non-existent NE Euro, if I recall correctly, which seemed a bit odd to me. But, it could've been an outlier. Also, although 99% of Patels are Patidar, a certain Brahmin community in Gujarat also uses the surname to an extent, and I think there should be variation between the different types of Patels as well.

Yes, I think most American Patels would be similar to the Harappa Hapmap and 1000Genomes Gujarati A Houston samples. The two participants HRP0058 (Gujarati Patel) and HRP0068 (Gujarati Patel) are probably pretty representative of them and score more or less identically to the Gujarati A Houston averages.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=1

However, as you noted, there are different types of Patels. Do you know anything about the demographics of Patels? Like percentage wise, I'd imagine individuals like HRP0058 and HRP0068 have to be the largest percentage. Anyways, I'd be curious to see how Brahmins using Patel as a surname, Leuva/Leva Patels or Kadva/Kadava Patels score in particular.

note: For Zack, the Gujarati A are the tight "Patel-like" cluster and the Gujarati B are the diverse group.

Mingle
04-08-2018, 03:56 PM
I emailed him my raw data at least a month ago. Any idea how much longer I'll have to wait to get my results back?

kush
04-08-2018, 04:35 PM
I emailed him my raw data at least a month ago. Any idea how much longer I'll have to wait to get my results back?

he usually doesnt email back the results but he gives you the sample ID through email. I think he puts the results directly on the spreadsheet. Did you get any email saying your ID is pathan_1, pashtun_1 or 2, something along those lines?

here's the spreadsheet and I saw three or four pathan/pasthun samples. Check whether your sample is there or not.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=2076417393

Kulin
04-08-2018, 05:36 PM
Yes, I think most American Patels would be similar to the Harappa Hapmap and 1000Genomes Gujarati A Houston samples. The two participants HRP0058 (Gujarati Patel) and HRP0068 (Gujarati Patel) are probably pretty representative of them and score more or less identically to the Gujarati A Houston averages.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=1

However, as you noted, there are different types of Patels. Do you know anything about the demographics of Patels? Like percentage wise, I'd imagine individuals like HRP0058 and HRP0068 have to be the largest percentage. Anyways, I'd be curious to see how Brahmins using Patel as a surname, Leuva/Leva Patels or Kadva/Kadava Patels score in particular.

note: For Zack, the Gujarati A are the tight "Patel-like" cluster and the Gujarati B are the diverse group.


Patel was historically a feudal title. It's used by the Siddha Rudra Brahmins of Gujarat, as well as groups like Parsis to some extent, besides the Patidar community.

parasar
04-08-2018, 10:58 PM
See here. It says Gujarati D. Have also come across Gujarati A/B/C else where. But dont know how to read the difference between A/B/C/D

I don't believe there was any official confirmation as to which caste group the A,B,C,D belonged to, but it was generally inferred that they represented a cline from ANI to ASI.
Nick Patterson went as far as calling them distinct.

"Nick Patterson (Broad) said...

About time asked for some
f_3 stats. As a Christmas present:

## Sources Target f_3 Z
LBK Onge Vishwabrahmin 0.000734 0.641
LBK Onge Gujarati1 -0.006114 -4.582
LBK Onge Gujarati2 -0.006442 -4.955
LBK Onge Gujarati3 -0.001871 -1.325
LBK Onge Gujarati4 0.002510 1.814
MA1 Onge Vishwabrahmin 0.005237 4.136
MA1 Onge Gujarati1 0.002404 1.641
MA1 Onge Gujarati2 0.003153 2.124
MA1 Onge Gujarati3 0.004297 2.923
MA1 Onge Gujarati4 0.009156 6.084
LBK She Uzbek -0.024589 -26.829
MA1 She Uzbek -0.013565 -13.372

(There are 4 Gujarati groups in the Human Origins data, genetically distinct).

Implications for ancient DNA to the history of India and Asia are very interesting but
will need much more work. "
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html

khanabadoshi
04-09-2018, 12:31 AM
I don't believe there was any official confirmation as to which caste group the A,B,C,D belonged to, but it was generally inferred that they represented a cline from ANI to ASI.
Nick Patterson went as far as calling them distinct.

"Nick Patterson (Broad) said...

About time asked for some
f_3 stats. As a Christmas present:

## Sources Target f_3 Z
LBK Onge Vishwabrahmin 0.000734 0.641
LBK Onge Gujarati1 -0.006114 -4.582
LBK Onge Gujarati2 -0.006442 -4.955
LBK Onge Gujarati3 -0.001871 -1.325
LBK Onge Gujarati4 0.002510 1.814
MA1 Onge Vishwabrahmin 0.005237 4.136
MA1 Onge Gujarati1 0.002404 1.641
MA1 Onge Gujarati2 0.003153 2.124
MA1 Onge Gujarati3 0.004297 2.923
MA1 Onge Gujarati4 0.009156 6.084
LBK She Uzbek -0.024589 -26.829
MA1 She Uzbek -0.013565 -13.372

(There are 4 Gujarati groups in the Human Origins data, genetically distinct).

Implications for ancient DNA to the history of India and Asia are very interesting but
will need much more work. "
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html

I agree. We assume higher-caste is A; however, it's arbitrary and we don't know who is in what group. For all we know there is a Patel in each A/B/C/D. When you run all samples there are clear "groupings" just by looking at the numbers and it becomes nonsensical to average the entire set as one group. It seems the standard has been to form the groups based on how the numbers look in Harappa. As such, this is how the PJL samples were also divided (Razib Khan calls them ANI1, 2, 3, 4), and how Reza and I attempted to divide the Bengalis (though we used East Asian as well as ASI). This is also how we were able to divide the Chitrali samples, the only difference being is I had knowledge of where the samples were from and linguistic information -- thus, I didn't have to call it Chitrali 1,2,3,4,5 -- but I could actually name them.

Basically, one is trying to limit the variation of "groups" to be the same as other clear genetic groups like a Sindhi or Baloch. Hence, Pashtuns are divided into 2 groups. We could call them Pashtun 1 and 2, but we use Pashtun/Pathan or Afg Pashtun/Pak Pashtun because names are better than numbers. The same principle is in play with the Gujarati and PJL samples. The underlying implication is that neither ethnic group is a uniform genetic group, but rather an amalgamation of genetic groups that are tied by language and culture.

If we could name the Gujarati or PJL samples by geography, clan, caste or even cardinal direction, we would -- but we can't because we don't know any of those details, and as such, we don't even know if any such classification would be evident in the data. However, it is at least a logical inference based on known sample identities and other genetic group attributes, that Gujarati A or PJL A are either: more Northern, more Western, higher-caste, or any combination of the 3, than the B/C/D groups.

parasar
04-09-2018, 02:10 AM
I agree. We assume higher-caste is A; however, it's arbitrary and we don't know who is in what group. For all we know there is a Patel in each A/B/C/D. When you run all samples there are clear "groupings" just by looking at the numbers and it becomes nonsensical to average the entire set as one group. It seems the standard has been to form the groups based on how the numbers look in Harappa. As such, this is how the PJL samples were also divided (Razib Khan calls them ANI1, 2, 3, 4), and how Reza and I attempted to divide the Bengalis (though we used East Asian as well as ASI). This is also how we were able to divide the Chitrali samples, the only difference being is I had knowledge of where the samples were from and linguistic information -- thus, I didn't have to call it Chitrali 1,2,3,4,5 -- but I could actually name them.

Basically, one is trying to limit the variation of "groups" to be the same as other clear genetic groups like a Sindhi or Baloch. Hence, Pashtuns are divided into 2 groups. We could call them Pashtun 1 and 2, but we use Pashtun/Pathan or Afg Pashtun/Pak Pashtun because names are better than numbers. The same principle is in play with the Gujarati and PJL samples. The underlying implication is that neither ethnic group is a uniform genetic group, but rather an amalgamation of genetic groups that are tied by language and culture.

If we could name the Gujarati or PJL samples by geography, clan, caste or even cardinal direction, we would -- but we can't because we don't know any of those details, and as such, we don't even know if any such classification would be evident in the data. However, it is at least a logical inference based on known sample identities and other genetic group attributes, that Gujarati A or PJL A are either: more Northern, more Western, higher-caste, or any combination of the 3, than the B/C/D groups.

And the South and Central Asia paper had a number of sites where varieties were seen (deemed outliers).

Eg. "the Sintashta culture reveals three groups of outliers, in addition to the main cluster of 40 individuals." Sintashta A,B,C,D?
Looking at their Y and mt they look quite at home
1949-1772 calBCE Sintashta_MLBA_o2 M U5a1 R1a1a1b2a2a
2012-1774 calBCE Sintashta_MLBA_o2 M J2b1 R1b1a1a2a2
1886-1695 calBCE Sintashta_MLBA_o2 M U5a1 R1a1a1b
1906-1743 calBCE Sintashta_MLBA_o2 M U5a1 R1a1a
2050-1650 BCE [based on 12 directly dates samples] Sintashta_MLBA_o3 M U5a1 R1b1a1a
1878-1664 calBCE Sintashta_MLBA_o3 M U2e1'2 R1b1a1a1

For the Gonur outliers, the mt and Y are not clear for the most part, but nothing looks out of place either.

The Saidu Sharif outlier looks completely at home too:
500-300 BCE Saidu_Sharif_IA_o Swat Valley, Saidu Sharif M U2b2 R2a3a2b

Mingle
04-09-2018, 08:26 PM
he usually doesnt email back the results but he gives you the sample ID through email. I think he puts the results directly on the spreadsheet. Did you get any email saying your ID is pathan_1, pashtun_1 or 2, something along those lines?

here's the spreadsheet and I saw three or four pathan/pasthun samples. Check whether your sample is there or not.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=2076417393

The only possible one that could be mine is "pashtun_2" but I doubt that one is mine considering that it is 49% Tamil and I never got an email back from him regarding my sample or anything. There is a "Pathan_Yousafzai_1" but I never told him that I was a Yousafzai, so that one can't be me either. I heard from another user that he takes quite a while to give back results, and its possible that he's just been overwhelmed lately. I just checked my email again, and I sent him the email on March 9th, so its been a whole month.

Mingle
04-09-2018, 08:31 PM
Patel was historically a feudal title. It's used by the Siddha Rudra Brahmins of Gujarat, as well as groups like Parsis to some extent, besides the Patidar community.

So many Patels have a Brahmin origin?

Is Patel a title like Chowdhury? I thought Patel was some patrilineal tribe like Jatt and Rajput? Are Patels and Patidars considered separate communities nowadays?

pegasus
04-09-2018, 10:01 PM
So many Patels have a Brahmin origin?

Is Patel a title like Chowdhury? I thought Patel was some patrilineal tribe like Jatt and Rajput? Are Patels and Patidars considered separate communities nowadays?

Not at all they are different. Gujarati Brahmins show considerably more Steppe input , Patels lack or have low amounts of it. Once its on Nmonte it will be more clear, because the qdpam results on the latest spreadsheet were a joke.

Kulin
04-09-2018, 11:21 PM
So many Patels have a Brahmin origin?

Is Patel a title like Chowdhury? I thought Patel was some patrilineal tribe like Jatt and Rajput? Are Patels and Patidars considered separate communities nowadays?

No, Patels don't have Brahmin origin, and very few Brahmins (only one community) normally use 'Patel' as a title. I believe 'Patidar' is the current name of the community, formerly called Kanbi, and they usually (not always) use 'Patel' as a title, meaning holders of 'Patis' (or land). There are other equivalents to the name, Patel in many areas of South Asia for e.g., the Bengali equivalent of the feudal title is 'Patowari', meaning the same thing.

The Patidar/Kanbi community is divided into the following groups (as shown in the chart), and are mainly separated by location and patron deities/temples, while 3rd order divisions called 'Gol' refer to cluster of villages that may marry with each other, with each individual village comprising their 'gotra' (patrilineal clan).
http://i66.tinypic.com/aac7l4.jpg

khanabadoshi
04-10-2018, 01:57 AM
The only possible one that could be mine is "pashtun_2" but I doubt that one is mine considering that it is 49% Tamil and I never got an email back from him regarding my sample or anything. There is a "Pathan_Yousafzai_1" but I never told him that I was a Yousafzai, so that one can't be me either. I heard from another user that he takes quite a while to give back results, and its possible that he's just been overwhelmed lately. I just checked my email again, and I sent him the email on March 9th, so its been a whole month.

I'm in the same boat. Sent my samples around the same time as you, and I haven't heard anything. I don't think he has has worked on an update lately. I assume you'll be Pashtun_3 and I'll be Saraiki_1 or something. I also sent him 2 Chitrali samples, the Mohmand, Lahori, and Multani, so when we see those on the spreadsheet, we'll know he updated.

Sapporo
05-03-2018, 05:44 PM
@Kulin

Here are three of the results of a Gujarati Patel family (of various close relatives):

P. Patel - H116926


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.84
2 S-Indian 34.66
3 Caucasian 11.14
4 NE-Euro 8.95
5 Mediterranean 1.78
6 SW-Asian 1.59
7 American 1.14
8 Beringian 1.09
9 Papuan 0.52
10 Pygmy 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 2.67
2 punjabi (harappa) 2.79
3 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.11
4 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.34
5 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 3.54
6 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 4.01
7 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.74
8 up-muslim (harappa) 5.18
9 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 5.94
10 kashmiri (harappa) 6.2
11 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.46
12 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 6.53
13 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 7.15
14 up-brahmin (harappa) 7.26
15 nepalese-a (xing) 7.84
16 sindhi (harappa) 8.52
17 sindhi (hgdp) 9.16
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 9.73
19 gujarati-b (hapmap) 10.57
20 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 10.62

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 22.3% gujarati-patel (harappa) @ 1.31
2 62.1% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 37.9% gujarati-b (hapmap) @ 1.33
3 67.8% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 32.2% iyer-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.36
4 76.4% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 23.6% gujarati-a (1000genomes) @ 1.39
5 88.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 11.4% bene-israel-jew (behar) @ 1.41
6 66.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 33.3% tn-brahmin (xing) @ 1.42
7 85.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 14.3% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.44
8 65.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 34.1% gujarati (harappa) @ 1.46
9 69.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 30.5% kerala-nair (harappa) @ 1.5
10 64.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 35.3% meghawal (reich) @ 1.55
11 68.6% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 31.4% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.6
12 73.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 26.9% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 1.65
13 87% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 13% bene-israel-jew (behar) @ 1.67
14 70.2% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 29.8% ap-brahmin (xing) @ 1.67
15 66.6% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 33.4% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) @ 1.68
16 64.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 35.1% up-kshatriya (metspalu) @ 1.72
17 72.4% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 27.6% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) @ 1.74
18 75.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 24.3% dharkar (metspalu) @ 1.76
19 66.1% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 33.9% maharashtrian (harappa) @ 1.8
20 66.3% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 33.7% karnataka-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.84


N. Patel - H187868


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.74
2 S-Indian 36.54
3 Caucasian 9.91
4 NE-Euro 6.93
5 Mediterranean 1.92
6 Beringian 1.28
7 NE-Asian 0.98
8 SW-Asian 0.9
9 American 0.67
10 Papuan 0.66
11 Siberian 0.25
12 E-African 0.2
13 SE-Asian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 3.17
2 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 3.65
3 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.99
4 punjabi (harappa) 4.24
5 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 4.34
6 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 5.1
7 up-muslim (harappa) 6.05
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 6.58
9 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 6.67
10 up-brahmin (harappa) 6.74
11 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.8
12 kashmiri (harappa) 8.14
13 nepalese-a (xing) 8.23
14 gujarati-b (hapmap) 8.41
15 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.93
16 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 9.2
17 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 9.4
18 sindhi (hgdp) 9.41
19 meghawal (reich) 9.64
20 bihari-muslim (harappa) 9.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 4.9% irula (xing) @ 1.32
2 85.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 14.7% ap-hyderabad (harappa) @ 1.36
3 95.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 4.9% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 1.37
4 92.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.3% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.37
5 92.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.2% kurumba (reich) @ 1.38
6 82.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 17.7% kerala-christian (harappa) @ 1.39
7 92.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.3% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 1.4
8 90.4% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 9.6% hallaki (reich) @ 1.43
9 93.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 6.9% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.43
10 93.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 6.8% mala (reich) @ 1.43
11 95.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 4.7% paniya (chaubey) @ 1.43
12 93.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 6.8% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.44
13 90.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 9.7% tharu (reich) @ 1.46
14 86.5% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 13.5% tamil (harappa) @ 1.47
15 87.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 12.9% andhra-pradesh (harappa) @ 1.48
16 92.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.8% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.49
17 92.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.9% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.49
18 92.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.8% bhil (reich) @ 1.5
19 92.6% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.4% madiga (reich) @ 1.5
20 89.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.1% kurumba (metspalu) @ 1.5


Nil Patel - H342892


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.23
2 S-Indian 35.3
3 Caucasian 9.64
4 NE-Euro 8.61
5 Mediterranean 2.43
6 Beringian 1.59
7 NE-Asian 1.01
8 American 0.97
9 SW-Asian 0.53
10 Papuan 0.48
11 E-African 0.17
12 SE-Asian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 2.83
2 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 2.91
3 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 2.96
4 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 3.14
5 punjabi (harappa) 3.58
6 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 4.24
7 up-muslim (harappa) 5.52
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.82
9 up-brahmin (harappa) 6.28
10 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.56
11 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 6.93
12 nepalese-a (xing) 6.96
13 kashmiri (harappa) 7.29
14 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 7.84
15 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 8.05
16 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.77
17 sindhi (hgdp) 9.33
18 gujarati-b (hapmap) 9.39
19 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 9.68
20 sindhi (harappa) 9.72

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 11.1% sri-lankan (harappa) @ 1.78
2 85.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 14.9% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.81
3 96.3% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 3.7% irula (xing) @ 1.85
4 72.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 27.1% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.86
5 96.4% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 3.6% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 1.88
6 86.4% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 13.6% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.88
7 89.3% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 10.7% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 1.9
8 81.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 18.8% bengali-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.91
9 90.1% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 9.9% sri-lankan (harappa) @ 1.91
10 86.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.4% kerala-christian (harappa) @ 1.91
11 87.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 12.9% up (harappa) @ 1.92
12 90% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 10% karnataka (harappa) @ 1.93
13 94.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 5.3% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.94
14 89.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 10.4% ap-hyderabad (harappa) @ 1.94
15 83.5% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 16.5% maharashtrian (harappa) @ 1.95
16 79.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 20.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 1.95
17 90% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 10% andhra-pradesh (harappa) @ 1.96
18 84.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 15.9% tn-brahmin (xing) @ 1.96
19 96.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 3.4% paniya (chaubey) @ 1.96
20 91.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 8.4% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.96


Do you think they may be Leva or Kadva Patels? Brahmins?

This person is also related to them but shares much smaller segments so might be a cousin or something.

Par. Patel - H948407




Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 38.87
2 Baloch 37.29
3 NE-Euro 10.02
4 Caucasian 8.58
5 Siberian 2.33
6 Mediterranean 1.21
7 Beringian 1.15
8 Papuan 0.28
9 NE-Asian 0.27

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 up-brahmin (harappa) 3.31
2 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 5.38
3 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 5.9
4 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.99
5 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 6.19
6 up-muslim (harappa) 6.47
7 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 6.56
8 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.77
9 punjabi (harappa) 6.78
10 nepalese-a (xing) 6.86
11 bihari-muslim (harappa) 6.9
12 gujarati-b (hapmap) 7
13 vaish (reich) 7.19
14 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 7.24
15 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 7.45
16 meghawal (reich) 7.92
17 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 8.53
18 maharashtrian (harappa) 8.55
19 gujarati (harappa) 8.72
20 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 9.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50.2% vaish (reich) + 49.8% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.04
2 58.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 41.6% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.11
3 73.2% vaish (reich) + 26.8% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.16
4 70.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 29.9% srivastava (reich) @ 2.16
5 54% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 46% bihari-muslim (harappa) @ 2.17
6 50.8% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 49.2% up-kshatriya (metspalu) @ 2.25
7 60.5% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 39.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 2.25
8 84.5% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 15.5% bhil (reich) @ 2.27
9 86.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.3% mala (reich) @ 2.29
10 74.2% up-brahmin (harappa) + 25.8% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.3
11 87.9% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 12.1% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.33
12 88.3% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 11.7% nogai (yunusbayev) @ 2.34
13 86.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.3% ap-mala (xing) @ 2.34
14 86.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.4% tn-dalit (xing) @ 2.35
15 88.1% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 11.9% urkarah (xing) @ 2.35
16 65.6% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 34.4% srivastava (reich) @ 2.36
17 72.6% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 27.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.37
18 96.8% up-brahmin (harappa) + 3.2% georgian (behar) @ 2.38
19 86.2% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.8% kurumba (reich) @ 2.38
20 86% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 14% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 2.39

Kulin
05-03-2018, 05:52 PM
@Kulin

Here are three of the results of a Gujarati Patel family (of various close relatives):

P. Patel - H116926


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.84
2 S-Indian 34.66
3 Caucasian 11.14
4 NE-Euro 8.95
5 Mediterranean 1.78
6 SW-Asian 1.59
7 American 1.14
8 Beringian 1.09
9 Papuan 0.52
10 Pygmy 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 2.67
2 punjabi (harappa) 2.79
3 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.11
4 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.34
5 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 3.54
6 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 4.01
7 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.74
8 up-muslim (harappa) 5.18
9 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 5.94
10 kashmiri (harappa) 6.2
11 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.46
12 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 6.53
13 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 7.15
14 up-brahmin (harappa) 7.26
15 nepalese-a (xing) 7.84
16 sindhi (harappa) 8.52
17 sindhi (hgdp) 9.16
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 9.73
19 gujarati-b (hapmap) 10.57
20 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 10.62

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 22.3% gujarati-patel (harappa) @ 1.31
2 62.1% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 37.9% gujarati-b (hapmap) @ 1.33
3 67.8% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 32.2% iyer-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.36
4 76.4% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 23.6% gujarati-a (1000genomes) @ 1.39
5 88.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 11.4% bene-israel-jew (behar) @ 1.41
6 66.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 33.3% tn-brahmin (xing) @ 1.42
7 85.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 14.3% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.44
8 65.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 34.1% gujarati (harappa) @ 1.46
9 69.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 30.5% kerala-nair (harappa) @ 1.5
10 64.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 35.3% meghawal (reich) @ 1.55
11 68.6% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 31.4% iyengar-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.6
12 73.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 26.9% gujarati-muslim (harappa) @ 1.65
13 87% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 13% bene-israel-jew (behar) @ 1.67
14 70.2% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 29.8% ap-brahmin (xing) @ 1.67
15 66.6% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 33.4% brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) @ 1.68
16 64.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 35.1% up-kshatriya (metspalu) @ 1.72
17 72.4% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 27.6% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) @ 1.74
18 75.7% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 24.3% dharkar (metspalu) @ 1.76
19 66.1% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 33.9% maharashtrian (harappa) @ 1.8
20 66.3% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 33.7% karnataka-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.84


N. Patel - H187868


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.74
2 S-Indian 36.54
3 Caucasian 9.91
4 NE-Euro 6.93
5 Mediterranean 1.92
6 Beringian 1.28
7 NE-Asian 0.98
8 SW-Asian 0.9
9 American 0.67
10 Papuan 0.66
11 Siberian 0.25
12 E-African 0.2
13 SE-Asian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 3.17
2 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 3.65
3 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 3.99
4 punjabi (harappa) 4.24
5 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 4.34
6 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 5.1
7 up-muslim (harappa) 6.05
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 6.58
9 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 6.67
10 up-brahmin (harappa) 6.74
11 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.8
12 kashmiri (harappa) 8.14
13 nepalese-a (xing) 8.23
14 gujarati-b (hapmap) 8.41
15 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.93
16 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 9.2
17 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 9.4
18 sindhi (hgdp) 9.41
19 meghawal (reich) 9.64
20 bihari-muslim (harappa) 9.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 4.9% irula (xing) @ 1.32
2 85.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 14.7% ap-hyderabad (harappa) @ 1.36
3 95.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 4.9% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 1.37
4 92.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.3% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.37
5 92.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.2% kurumba (reich) @ 1.38
6 82.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 17.7% kerala-christian (harappa) @ 1.39
7 92.7% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.3% hakkipikki (metspalu) @ 1.4
8 90.4% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 9.6% hallaki (reich) @ 1.43
9 93.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 6.9% tn-dalit (xing) @ 1.43
10 93.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 6.8% mala (reich) @ 1.43
11 95.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 4.7% paniya (chaubey) @ 1.43
12 93.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 6.8% ap-mala (xing) @ 1.44
13 90.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 9.7% tharu (reich) @ 1.46
14 86.5% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 13.5% tamil (harappa) @ 1.47
15 87.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 12.9% andhra-pradesh (harappa) @ 1.48
16 92.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.8% tamil-vishwakarma (harappa) @ 1.49
17 92.1% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.9% sakilli (chaubey) @ 1.49
18 92.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.8% bhil (reich) @ 1.5
19 92.6% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 7.4% madiga (reich) @ 1.5
20 89.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.1% kurumba (metspalu) @ 1.5


Nil Patel - H342892


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.23
2 S-Indian 35.3
3 Caucasian 9.64
4 NE-Euro 8.61
5 Mediterranean 2.43
6 Beringian 1.59
7 NE-Asian 1.01
8 American 0.97
9 SW-Asian 0.53
10 Papuan 0.48
11 E-African 0.17
12 SE-Asian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 2.83
2 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 2.91
3 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 2.96
4 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 3.14
5 punjabi (harappa) 3.58
6 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 4.24
7 up-muslim (harappa) 5.52
8 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.82
9 up-brahmin (harappa) 6.28
10 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.56
11 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 6.93
12 nepalese-a (xing) 6.96
13 kashmiri (harappa) 7.29
14 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 7.84
15 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 8.05
16 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.77
17 sindhi (hgdp) 9.33
18 gujarati-b (hapmap) 9.39
19 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 9.68
20 sindhi (harappa) 9.72

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.9% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 11.1% sri-lankan (harappa) @ 1.78
2 85.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 14.9% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.81
3 96.3% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 3.7% irula (xing) @ 1.85
4 72.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 27.1% up-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.86
5 96.4% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 3.6% pulliyar (metspalu) @ 1.88
6 86.4% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 13.6% cochin-jew (behar) @ 1.88
7 89.3% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 10.7% kerala-muslim (harappa) @ 1.9
8 81.2% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 18.8% bengali-brahmin (harappa) @ 1.91
9 90.1% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 9.9% sri-lankan (harappa) @ 1.91
10 86.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.4% kerala-christian (harappa) @ 1.91
11 87.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 12.9% up (harappa) @ 1.92
12 90% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 10% karnataka (harappa) @ 1.93
13 94.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 5.3% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 1.94
14 89.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 10.4% ap-hyderabad (harappa) @ 1.94
15 83.5% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 16.5% maharashtrian (harappa) @ 1.95
16 79.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 20.1% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 1.95
17 90% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 10% andhra-pradesh (harappa) @ 1.96
18 84.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 15.9% tn-brahmin (xing) @ 1.96
19 96.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 3.4% paniya (chaubey) @ 1.96
20 91.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 8.4% tamil-vellalar (harappa) @ 1.96


Do you think they may be Leva or Kadva Patels? Brahmins?

This person is also related to them but shares much smaller segments so might be a cousin or something.

Par. Patel - H948407




Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 38.87
2 Baloch 37.29
3 NE-Euro 10.02
4 Caucasian 8.58
5 Siberian 2.33
6 Mediterranean 1.21
7 Beringian 1.15
8 Papuan 0.28
9 NE-Asian 0.27

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 up-brahmin (harappa) 3.31
2 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 5.38
3 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 5.9
4 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.99
5 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 6.19
6 up-muslim (harappa) 6.47
7 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 6.56
8 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.77
9 punjabi (harappa) 6.78
10 nepalese-a (xing) 6.86
11 bihari-muslim (harappa) 6.9
12 gujarati-b (hapmap) 7
13 vaish (reich) 7.19
14 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 7.24
15 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 7.45
16 meghawal (reich) 7.92
17 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 8.53
18 maharashtrian (harappa) 8.55
19 gujarati (harappa) 8.72
20 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 9.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50.2% vaish (reich) + 49.8% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.04
2 58.4% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 41.6% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.11
3 73.2% vaish (reich) + 26.8% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.16
4 70.1% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 29.9% srivastava (reich) @ 2.16
5 54% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 46% bihari-muslim (harappa) @ 2.17
6 50.8% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 49.2% up-kshatriya (metspalu) @ 2.25
7 60.5% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 39.5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 2.25
8 84.5% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 15.5% bhil (reich) @ 2.27
9 86.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.3% mala (reich) @ 2.29
10 74.2% up-brahmin (harappa) + 25.8% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.3
11 87.9% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 12.1% stalskoe (xing) @ 2.33
12 88.3% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 11.7% nogai (yunusbayev) @ 2.34
13 86.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.3% ap-mala (xing) @ 2.34
14 86.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.4% tn-dalit (xing) @ 2.35
15 88.1% gujarati-b (hapmap) + 11.9% urkarah (xing) @ 2.35
16 65.6% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 34.4% srivastava (reich) @ 2.36
17 72.6% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 27.4% kalash (hgdp) @ 2.37
18 96.8% up-brahmin (harappa) + 3.2% georgian (behar) @ 2.38
19 86.2% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 13.8% kurumba (reich) @ 2.38
20 86% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 14% north-kannadi (chaubey) @ 2.39




I think these samples are either Brahmins or more likelier to be Gujarati Patels (probably Leva) of a higher status village. Most of these 'higher status villages' are in Central Gujarat, and wealthier/more influential Patels have apparently married with higher caste groups such as Rajputs around the 19th century or so, so their admixture would make sense. But, I would wholeheartedly expect them to be more 'IVC farmer-like' rather than show higher levels of steppe such as these samples for regular Patidars.

pegasus
05-04-2018, 03:09 AM
Look like Brahmins, the Harappa oracles are pretty damn good I noticed, ie it was able to group far flung Nepali Brahmins with ones in Rajasthan, geneology wise it made sense as in the Vedic tradition, Saraswat Brahmins originate from a common area and Ghagra Hakkra corresponds with a region between Southern Punjab, Western Haryana and Northern Rajasthan.

bmoney
05-04-2018, 04:39 AM
Look like Brahmins, the Harappa oracles are pretty damn good I noticed, ie it was able to group far flung Nepali Brahmins with ones in Rajasthan, geneology wise it made sense as in the Vedic tradition, Saraswat Brahmins originate from a common area and Ghagra Hakkra corresponds with a region between Southern Punjab, Western Haryana and Northern Rajasthan.

Id say no they don't look like Saraswat Brahmins, they look like the result of Potohari types like Khatris and Kashmiri Paharis diffusing with Gujarati Patels, except for the bottom sample whos more mixed.

Resemblance to Punjabi Brahmin is due to the common admixture Punjabi Saraswats have with these people

Sapporo
05-04-2018, 07:39 AM
Id say no they don't look like Saraswat Brahmins, they look like the result of Potohari types like Khatris and Kashmiri Paharis diffusing with Gujarati Patels, except for the bottom sample whos more mixed.

Resemblance to Punjabi Brahmin is due to the common admixture Punjabi Saraswats have with these people

Kulin suggested they look like mixs of upper castes such as Rajputs with regular Patels of wealthier and influential backgrounds. I don't know how Gujarati Rajputs score on Harappa specifically (Razib has a Solanki in his project) but from how Gujarati Brahmins clustered on the old 23andMe World PCA, these scores look somewhat similar to what I'd imagine a mix of a Gujarati Brahmin and some Patels score like.

pegasus
05-04-2018, 08:39 AM
Id say no they don't look like Saraswat Brahmins, they look like the result of Potohari types like Khatris and Kashmiri Paharis diffusing with Gujarati Patels, except for the bottom sample whos more mixed.

Resemblance to Punjabi Brahmin is due to the common admixture Punjabi Saraswats have with these people

Khatris and ilk don't exist here, the only similar group are Lohanas, 2 of them look extremely similar to the Gujarati Brahmin samples. I don't think this group even mixed with regular Patels , that would mean they mixed with a group which is 20% Caucasus as well as 15-20% Steppe on Harappa and which is lacking completely with Patels . Looks like some upper caste group which assumed this identity for whatever reasons, property or politics

Kulin
05-04-2018, 03:34 PM
Kulin suggested they look like mixs of upper castes such as Rajputs with regular Patels of wealthier and influential backgrounds. I don't know how Gujarati Rajputs score on Harappa specifically (Razib has a Solanki in his project) but from how Gujarati Brahmins clustered on the old 23andMe World PCA, these scores look somewhat similar to what I'd imagine a mix of a Gujarati Brahmin and some Patels score like.


Actually, there's a chance they might be related to Gujjars as well. Anajana/Chaudhary Patels are a community which intermarries with Gujjars and claim to have Gujjar origin. But, yeah, I don't think these samples would be your average patel if anything.


Khatris and ilk don't exist here, the only similar group are Lohanas, 2 of them look extremely similar to the Gujarati Brahmin samples. I don't think this group even mixed with regular Patels , that would mean they mixed with a group which is 20% Caucasus as well as 15-20% Steppe on Harappa and which is lacking completely with Patels . Looks like some upper caste group which assumed this identity for whatever reasons, property or politics

There are Gujarati Khatris actually, but they are not a significant population in Gujarat, like they are in Punjab.

Sapporo
05-04-2018, 03:40 PM
There are Gujarati Khatris actually, but they are not a significant population in Gujarat, like they are in Punjab.
Do they share surnames/clan names with Punjabi and Sindhi Khatris? They might represent a group that migrated further away from what I suspect is an Upper Indus origin.

pegasus
05-04-2018, 03:52 PM
Wouldn't Gujarati Khatri just be Lohana? They both are Kshatriyas. I will ask a friend he is a Bhalla/Kapoor Khatri for more info. Afaik Khatris are native Punjabi speakers related to Hindkhowans and moved into other regions of Northern India where they adopted Hindi. I guess it might be like the Nepali Chetri ie similar name but different histories.

Kulin
05-04-2018, 04:08 PM
Do they share surnames/clan names with Punjabi and Sindhi Khatris? They might represent a group that migrated further away from what I suspect is an Upper Indus origin.


I'm not sure what surnames they use, but I know that the community aren't like super recent migrants from Punjab/Sindh, but may go back 400+ years or so.



Wouldn't Gujarati Khatri just be Lohana? They both are Kshatriyas. I will ask a friend he is a Bhalla/Kapoor Khatri for more info. Afaik Khatris are native Punjabi speakers related to Hindkhowans and moved into other regions of Northern India where they adopted Hindi. I guess it might be like the Nepali Chetri ie similar name but different histories.

Yeah, its most likely that the community shares the same name.

Sapporo
05-04-2018, 04:23 PM
I'm not sure what surnames they use, but I know that the community aren't like super recent migrants from Punjab/Sindh, but may go back 400+ years or so.


I just meant it was possible they represent a split from the "original" Khatris who possibly originated in the Upper Indus (Northwest Punjab/Eastern KPK). Most remained around the same region but some migrated toward Central Punjab, Sindh and possibly Gujarat. That would mean they are very old in Gujarat though. If they're only migrants from 400+ years ago, it's possible they are assimilated Punjabi/Sindhi Khatris.

Also, this is a separate but related question: do you know if Kapadia are Lohana or related to Hindu Sindhis and/or Khatris? I found a Kapadia kit and they score very similar to Hindu Sindhis/Lohana/Punjabi Khatri/Aroras.

Kulin
05-04-2018, 04:44 PM
I just meant it was possible they represent a split from the "origina" Khatris who possibly originated in the Upper Indus (Northwest Punjab/Eastern KPK). Most remained around the same region but some migrated toward Central Punjab, Sindh and possibly Gujarat. That would mean they are very old in Gujarat though. If they're only migrants from 400+ years ago, it's possible they are assimilated Punjabi/Sindhi Khatris.

Also, this is a separate but related question: do you know if Kapadia are Lohana or related to Hindu Sindhis and/or Khatris? I found a Kapadia kit and they score very similar to Hindu Sindhis/Lohana/Punjabi Khatri/Aroras.

Yeah, most likely what you suggest in case of the Khatris.

Kapadia means "Cloth merchants" and the name is used by Hindus/Muslims/Parsis. It's not a caste based name, but a profession-based one, but I'm guessing people who use this surname are bania-types so Lohana connection is quite possible.

MuslimPatel123
06-27-2018, 07:58 PM
Razib posted a new update. Check it out:
gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/06/27/south-asian-genotype-project-summer-2018-update/

I'm "Gujurat_Bohra_Patel_1" which seemed to cluster with the Gujurati_ANI_1 group.

MuslimPatel123
06-27-2018, 08:12 PM
Yeah, most likely what you suggest in case of the Khatris.

Kapadia means "Cloth merchants" and the name is used by Hindus/Muslims/Parsis. It's not a caste based name, but a profession-based one, but I'm guessing people who use this surname are bania-types so Lohana connection is quite possible.

Kapadia is one of my recent ancestral surnames. Some of my ancestors were probably muslim merchants in the past, even though the community in Gujarat is mainly landlord/farmers right now.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-27-2018, 08:13 PM
Razib posted a new update. Check it out:
gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/06/27/south-asian-genotype-project-summer-2018-update/

I'm "Gujurat_Bohra_Patel_1" which seemed to cluster with the Gujurati_ANI_1 group.

I'm Punjabi Ramgarhia, he said I cluster between Punjabi ANI 1 and Punjabi ANI 2 group, which makes sense and goes along with all results and plots we've seen.

khanabadoshi
06-27-2018, 08:33 PM
Well damn, he didn't add any kit I sent him.

poi
06-27-2018, 09:04 PM
Well damn, he didn't add any kit I sent him.

LOL, looks like he took out or did not add Nepali Brahmins to the PCA.

traject
06-27-2018, 09:09 PM
I believe I am Kerala_Nasrani_1 on Razib's list.

Zuran
06-27-2018, 09:14 PM
I’m Punjab_Muslim_Jatt_5. A couple of weird results on there but aside from that looks good.

Jatt1
06-27-2018, 10:04 PM
Well damn, he didn't add any kit I sent him.

What is this and where can I find this information?

Zuran
06-27-2018, 10:12 PM
What is this and where can I find this information?

https://www.gnxp.com

Mingle
06-28-2018, 12:46 AM
I am "Pashtun_HK" on the sheet. I got 66% Iranian, 3% Lithuanian, and 31% Tamil.

khanabadoshi
06-28-2018, 12:14 PM
^^ I was wondering if that was you.

Sapporo
06-28-2018, 04:31 PM
I am "Pashtun_HK" on the sheet. I got 66% Iranian, 3% Lithuanian, and 31% Tamil.

Interesting. You score so much more Iranian and so much less Lithuanian than VelvetNono who is the Pashtun_Tajik on the spreadsheet. It must be a V5 versus V3 or V4 chip effect due to much lower SNP coverage on Razib's calc.

bmoney
06-29-2018, 03:40 AM
Interesting how Razib included Mingle (v5) yet excluded me (v5) from the South Asian analysis >:(

I'm high_caste_nair on the list

midichlorian
06-29-2018, 05:25 AM
I am Gujarati_Patel_1 on there and scored 17% Iranian and 83% Tamil. Think that'll check out pretty accurately once more Gujarati Patels hop in.

Reza
06-29-2018, 05:52 AM
These are our results - not sure they've changed from the last iteration?

IDNameCambodiansIraniansJapaneseLithuaniansPapuanT amilYemeniteJews
bangladesh_syhlet_1Reza9%3%6%7%0%75%0%
bangladesh_syhlet_2Reza_Cousin8%3%5%7%0%76%2%
bangladesh_syhlet_3Reza_Father8%0%5%6%0%81%0%
bangladesh_syhlet_4Reza_Mother9%8%4%6%1%73%0%
bangladesh_syhlet_5Reza_Wife4%9%9%3%1%74%0%
bangladesh_syhlet_zamindar_1Tanzil8%5%7%5%0%75%0%
pakistan_pahari_1Pak_Pahari1%33%0%8%0%58%0%
Guju_Muslim_1Guj_Muslim0%35%0%6%0%59%0%

(My cousin's is v5)

Mingle
06-29-2018, 06:08 PM
Interesting how Razib included Mingle (v5) yet excluded me (v5) from the South Asian analysis >:(

I'm high_caste_nair on the list

I just checked my email and forgot to tell him I was tested with the V5 chip. So I just emailed him right now telling him that my chip was V5, so he might exclude me later.

coolguy
06-30-2018, 01:05 AM
I am Gujarati_Patel_1 on there and scored 17% Iranian and 83% Tamil. Think that'll check out pretty accurately once more Gujarati Patels hop in.


That Guju Solanki result is baffling - 2% Iran and 87% Tamil

Solanki is a princely Rajput caste - one of the most renowned

I previously explained why I think this analysis may not be completely accurate:

This analysis doesn't say much because Tamils are mixed race. So the Tamil admixture could break down (into ANI and ASI) differently depending on the person. It's like saying someone is 50% Mexican, which can break down differently (i.e. it could be 50% Mestizo, 50% Native American, or 50% Spanish) depending on the person. Someone with fully Spanish genes can also be Mexican and someone with fully Amerindian genes can also be Mexican. Something similar applies to Tamils, who have different admixture results based on upper caste, lower caste or middle caste. Only Brahmin Tamils cluster with average Gujaratis.

The "Tamil" reference population in this analysis was based on UK Tamils, who are from middle and upper castes.

And it varies based on the source. This study (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-017-1244-9) showed that average Gujaratis are 58.1% South Indian, 34.3% Iranian and 7.6% Other. And it was based on the Gujarati Houston samples, a large number of whom are known to be Patels. And other analyses could show other admixture values.

Edit - according to bmoney's reply just below, Gujaratis score closer to Tamils than to NW Indians in this analysis. He is wrong. PJL is random unrelated Punjabi samples, which is the definition of Northwest India. PJL also scores pretty high Tamil % in this analysis (which is partially why I think it is not so accurate) and average GIH Gujaratis are still closer to PJL Punjabis than to Tamils. And secondly, it's just one analysis out of many, and every analysis provides different results.

bmoney
06-30-2018, 05:37 AM
I previously explained why I think this analysis may not be completely accurate:

You still haven't addressed the argument that Gujaratis score more similar to Tamils (in Razibs dataset) than to NW Indians (excl PJL)

Tamils being mixed is a red herring, everyone on the planet is mixed

And regarding the analysis being inaccurate, no I'm not going to take your word, every result i've seen is consistent with other calculator results, whereas your word is not

khanabadoshi
07-02-2018, 09:12 AM
This thread needs to stick to Razib's work, take the GIH talk to the thread I just made for it. I might move some posts from here to there.

EDIT: posts have been moved to: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14720-GIH-PJL-and-ASI-Oh-My!

MonkeyDLuffy
07-02-2018, 09:22 AM
This thread need to stick to Razib's work, take the GIH talk to the thread I just made for it. I might move some posts from here to there.

EDIT: posts have been moved to: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14720-GIH-PJL-and-ASI-Oh-My!

Lmao the title!

khanabadoshi
07-02-2018, 09:26 AM
Lmao the title!

I was sensibly chuckling the entire time I was forming the thread. I'm glad someone else LOLed too. Perks of modship.

Reza
07-11-2018, 10:00 AM
A new post (https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/07/09/the-main-interesting-thing-about-bangladeshi-genetics-is-how-east-asian-bangladeshis-are/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RazibKhansTotalFeed+%28Razib+ Khan%27s+total+feed%29) by Razib with particular reference to Bangladeshis and (somewhat for Tamils). Also, a repost here (http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/07/10/bangladeshis-are-very-east-asian-sri-lankan-tamils-are-not-quite-as-structured/).

"Going back the original question in terms of affinities to western and eastern population and Bengalis. There is a northwest to southeast gradient of “Ancestral North Indian” (Iranian farmer + Indo-Aryan) ancestry in South Asia, and that is evident in Bengal. But, Bengalis clearly have a substantial minority ancestral component from Eastern Eurasia, probably via Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burmans tribes. Though some Bengalis have a small proportion of distinct West Asian ancestry that is distinct from what is found typically in South Asians, that’s about one order of less magnitude significant than the East Asian ancestry."

bmoney
07-11-2018, 12:33 PM
A new post (https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/07/09/the-main-interesting-thing-about-bangladeshi-genetics-is-how-east-asian-bangladeshis-are/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RazibKhansTotalFeed+%28Razib+ Khan%27s+total+feed%29) by Razib with particular reference to Bangladeshis and (somewhat for Tamils). Also, a repost here (http://www.brownpundits.com/2018/07/10/bangladeshis-are-very-east-asian-sri-lankan-tamils-are-not-quite-as-structured/).

"Going back the original question in terms of affinities to western and eastern population and Bengalis. There is a northwest to southeast gradient of “Ancestral North Indian” (Iranian farmer + Indo-Aryan) ancestry in South Asia, and that is evident in Bengal. But, Bengalis clearly have a substantial minority ancestral component from Eastern Eurasia, probably via Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burmans tribes. Though some Bengalis have a small proportion of distinct West Asian ancestry that is distinct from what is found typically in South Asians, that’s about one order of less magnitude significant than the East Asian ancestry."

Great post. I think he's pretty much nailed Bangladeshi genetics, though he probably hasn't analysed the full diversity of West Bengal yet

Wonder when he'll get onto the Swat samples

Reza
07-11-2018, 02:16 PM
Yeah, the lack of West Bengali samples is frustrating. Brahmins probably form less than 5-10% of the population of W Bengal but are very well sampled. The rest of the population is mostly unsampled, and I suspect will score similarly to other Bangladeshis +/- Jharkand and Eastern Bihar. I'd quite like to know how strong the caste structure is there outside of Brahmins, as well as the Austroasiatic component. Leaving the higher castes to one side, phenotypically I don't notice that much difference in the more general population to Bangladeshis - rural or middle class.

Bangladeshi genetics are becoming clearer but there's still so much yet unexplained. On the old ANI-ASI gradient - despite the relatively high ASI scores, most Bangladeshis tend to consistently score some (albeit small) steppe which even some Gujarati populations lack altogether despite being culturally IndoAryan- why that disparity?

And the East Asian admixture is a whole different story - when do the admixtures date to historically? How to ascertain the difference between Austroasiatic admixture vs later Tibeto-Burman?

I've also wondered if some of the higher AASI scores when based on an Onge like ghost, is being pulled across from more genuine East Asian / Austroasiatic component. More and more, I think the ethnogenesis in the east of the subcontinent is fundamentally different to the South in it's components.

As with most of the subcontinent, the greater the sampling, the better the resolution. Our understanding of Punjabi genetics is miles ahead of most other populations. For Bangladeshis, it's been very much dependent on BEB samples - but sampling the geographic and social differences in the region will help tease out the finer details, whether there is more subtle structure with Bengalis, a truly geographical cline or even a non local signal as alluded to.

parasar
07-11-2018, 04:33 PM
Yeah, the lack of West Bengali samples is frustrating. Brahmins probably form less than 5-10% of the population of W Bengal but are very well sampled. The rest of the population is mostly unsampled, and I suspect will score similarly to other Bangladeshis +/- Jharkand and Eastern Bihar. I'd quite like to know how strong the caste structure is there outside of Brahmins, as well as the Austroasiatic component. Leaving the higher castes to one side, phenotypically I don't notice that much difference in the more general population to Bangladeshis - rural or middle class.

Bangladeshi genetics are becoming clearer but there's still so much yet unexplained. On the old ANI-ASI gradient - despite the relatively high ASI scores, most Bangladeshis tend to consistently score some (albeit small) steppe which even some Gujarati populations lack altogether despite being culturally IndoAryan- why that disparity?

And the East Asian admixture is a whole different story - when do the admixtures date to historically? How to ascertain the difference between Austroasiatic admixture vs later Tibeto-Burman?

I've also wondered if some of the higher AASI scores when based on an Onge like ghost, is being pulled across from more genuine East Asian / Austroasiatic component. More and more, I think the ethnogenesis in the east of the subcontinent is fundamentally different to the South in it's components.

As with most of the subcontinent, the greater the sampling, the better the resolution. Our understanding of Punjabi genetics is miles ahead of most other populations. For Bangladeshis, it's been very much dependent on BEB samples - but sampling the geographic and social differences in the region will help tease out the finer details, whether there is more subtle structure with Bengalis, a truly geographical cline or even a non local signal as alluded to.

Historically Xuanzang's* (by land) and Yijng's (by sea) records on 7th century Bangal and Assam are pretty good.
The Gaur region definitely looked pretty much like eastern Bihar parts of which have been considered Gaur.


An eastern phenotype is noticed in Kamrup:
"The men are of small stature, and their complexion a dark yellow. Their language differs a little from that of Mid-India. Their nature is very impetuous and wild; their memories are retentive, and they are earnest in study. They adore and sacrifice to the Devas, and have no faith in Buddha; hence from the time when Buddha appeared in the world even down to the present time there never as yet has been built one sangrahama as a place for the priests to assemble."


Gaur, Samtat, Tamralipti, Pundr etc., culturally at least were very much like Magadh, Monghyr, Champa, etc.


*Life: Book IV. Beginning at Champa (modern Bhagalpur) and ending with an Account of the Invitation of the King of Kamarup (modern Assam).
Siyuki: Book X Monghyr, Champa, Pundravardhan, Kamrup, etc.
(1) I-lan-na-po-fa- to ; (2) Chen-poj (3) Kie-chu-hoh-Jcai-lo ; (4) Pun-na-fa-tan-na ; (5) Kia-mo lu-po; (6) San-mo-ta-cha; (7) Tan-mo-lae-ti ; (8) Kie-lo-na-su-fa-la-na; (9) U-chaj (10) Kong-u-fo; (n) Xie- ling-kiaj (12) Kiu-sa-loj (13) 'An-ta-lo ; (14) To-na-Me-tse-Jcia ; (15) Chu-li-ye; (16) Ta-lo-pi-cli'a ; (17) Mo-lo-kin-cha.

tipirneni
07-11-2018, 09:12 PM
Historically Xuanzang's* (by land) and Yijng's (by sea) records on 7th century Bangal and Assam are pretty good.
The Gaur region definitely looked pretty much like eastern Bihar parts of which have been considered Gaur.


An eastern phenotype is noticed in Kamrup:
"The men are of small stature, and their complexion a dark yellow. Their language differs a little from that of Mid-India. Their nature is very impetuous and wild; their memories are retentive, and they are earnest in study. They adore and sacrifice to the Devas, and have no faith in Buddha; hence from the time when Buddha appeared in the world even down to the present time there never as yet has been built one sangrahama as a place for the priests to assemble."


Gaur, Samtat, Tamralipti, Pundr etc., culturally at least were very much like Magadh, Monghyr, Champa, etc.


*Life: Book IV. Beginning at Champa (modern Bhagalpur) and ending with an Account of the Invitation of the King of Kamarup (modern Assam).
Siyuki: Book X Monghyr, Champa, Pundravardhan, Kamrup, etc.
(1) I-lan-na-po-fa- to ; (2) Chen-poj (3) Kie-chu-hoh-Jcai-lo ; (4) Pun-na-fa-tan-na ; (5) Kia-mo lu-po; (6) San-mo-ta-cha; (7) Tan-mo-lae-ti ; (8) Kie-lo-na-su-fa-la-na; (9) U-chaj (10) Kong-u-fo; (n) Xie- ling-kiaj (12) Kiu-sa-loj (13) 'An-ta-lo ; (14) To-na-Me-tse-Jcia ; (15) Chu-li-ye; (16) Ta-lo-pi-cli'a ; (17) Mo-lo-kin-cha.

But the records indicate otherwise. Banglas ruled by dynasties well connected with Indian mainland. Pundra kingdom had high Gandara contact. Look at the statues and terracotta found which resemble the Gandhra and IndoBactrian
http://en.banglapedia.org/images/5/5e/Chitrakala-terracota.jpg
https://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2922/images/20121116292206104.jpg
Huge pala viharas continue the Mauryan & Buddhist era arts

https://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2922/images/20121116292206109.jpg


There has been people coming in from Assam & Tibet but these didnt influence the main arts of IronAge/Pundras/Palas/Senas etc...

bmoney
07-12-2018, 03:57 AM
Yeah, the lack of West Bengali samples is frustrating. Brahmins probably form less than 5-10% of the population of W Bengal but are very well sampled. The rest of the population is mostly unsampled, and I suspect will score similarly to other Bangladeshis +/- Jharkand and Eastern Bihar. I'd quite like to know how strong the caste structure is there outside of Brahmins, as well as the Austroasiatic component. Leaving the higher castes to one side, phenotypically I don't notice that much difference in the more general population to Bangladeshis - rural or middle class.

Bangladeshi genetics are becoming clearer but there's still so much yet unexplained. On the old ANI-ASI gradient - despite the relatively high ASI scores, most Bangladeshis tend to consistently score some (albeit small) steppe which even some Gujarati populations lack altogether despite being culturally IndoAryan- why that disparity?

And the East Asian admixture is a whole different story - when do the admixtures date to historically? How to ascertain the difference between Austroasiatic admixture vs later Tibeto-Burman?

I've also wondered if some of the higher AASI scores when based on an Onge like ghost, is being pulled across from more genuine East Asian / Austroasiatic component. More and more, I think the ethnogenesis in the east of the subcontinent is fundamentally different to the South in it's components.

As with most of the subcontinent, the greater the sampling, the better the resolution. Our understanding of Punjabi genetics is miles ahead of most other populations. For Bangladeshis, it's been very much dependent on BEB samples - but sampling the geographic and social differences in the region will help tease out the finer details, whether there is more subtle structure with Bengalis, a truly geographical cline or even a non local signal as alluded to.

I was interested in this little teaser as well. It seems he might have been comparing the BEB samples to the Gujarati Patel samples who have little to no Indo-Aryan steppe.

Or this could be the Saka dna which Kurd keeps detecting in your results


I've also wondered if some of the higher AASI scores when based on an Onge like ghost, is being pulled across from more genuine East Asian / Austroasiatic component. More and more, I think the ethnogenesis in the east of the subcontinent is fundamentally different to the South in it's components.

Yes definitely, I think some of that AASI, if based on Onge, is resembling non-AASI SE Asian since Onge is a halfway population between both. Yes I think some of that high AASI Bengalis score is more SE Asian-Munda rather than Paniya-like AASI, and the G25 co-ordinates show this difference by the off-the-cline position Bangladeshis cluster in.


As with most of the subcontinent, the greater the sampling, the better the resolution. Our understanding of Punjabi genetics is miles ahead of most other populations. For Bangladeshis, it's been very much dependent on BEB samples - but sampling the geographic and social differences in the region will help tease out the finer details, whether there is more subtle structure with Bengalis, a truly geographical cline or even a non local signal as alluded to.

I disagree to an extent because Bangladesh Bengalis don't have a caste system or a sense of caste-based endogamy. This suggests common founders for the whole population which is what Razib alluded to and fits the data so far. He did mention a West to East geographic cline though, with the East being more E Asian as expected

This minimal caste structure is similar to other South Asian populations like:

Sri Lankan Tamils
Maldivians
Sinhalese

Redifflal would be the best person to answer this, but I definitely think West Bengal has more caste structure than just Brahmin vs the rest given how connected the region was to the Indo-Aryan heartland

26284729292
07-12-2018, 09:42 AM
How legit is this project compared to harappa, dodecad, and other more common south asian projects?

MonkeyDLuffy
07-12-2018, 12:18 PM
How legit is this project compared to harappa, dodecad, and other more common south asian projects?

Pretty legit, the author is friend of Zack ajmal, creator of harappa. He is continuing from where Zack left. It's still in early stages but Razib is smart, and his observations are pretty spot on.

Ajay Singh
08-28-2018, 11:41 AM
You Jat, we all know your history and hatred for Rajputs. What was Jats ?? Do you even know that Jat is a pastoralist group and not any ethnicity. British have also written that Jats were marrying in wide range of people of North West. What about that.

Ajay Singh
08-28-2018, 11:50 AM
Lol do you Mr Prashant Baidwan- that Jats population is less than Rajputs in India as a whole. And Jat population is 1.7% in UP and 10% in Rajasthan. And also Rajputs were in occupation of warrior hood who move from one place to another.

Ajay Singh
08-28-2018, 11:54 AM
Lol so a Jat of Barmer is similar to a Jatt of Amritsar. Which is impossible!! How much blindfolded you fool could be?

khanabadoshi
08-29-2018, 02:42 AM
Lol so a Jat of Barmer is similar to a Jatt of Amritsar. Which is impossible!! How much blindfolded you fool could be?


Lol do you Mr Prashant Baidwan- that Jats population is less than Rajputs in India as a whole. And Jat population is 1.7% in UP and 10% in Rajasthan. And also Rajputs were in occupation of warrior hood who move from one place to another.


You Jat, we all know your history and hatred for Rajputs. What was Jats ?? Do you even know that Jat is a pastoralist group and not any ethnicity. British have also written that Jats were marrying in wide range of people of North West. What about that.

It sounds like you have a hatred for Jats.
To whom are you addressing your comments? Please keep your discussion cordial.

FrostAssassin0701
08-29-2018, 04:06 AM
On his calculator I get:
Cambodian: 0%
Iranians: 14%
Japanese: 2%
Lithuanians: 11%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 72%
Yemenite Jew: 0%

midichlorian
08-29-2018, 06:58 AM
On his calculator I get:
Cambodian: 0%
Iranians: 14%
Japanese: 2%
Lithuanians: 11%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 72%
Yemenite Jew: 0%

How do I access this calc?

Jatt1
08-29-2018, 07:54 AM
On his calculator I get:
Cambodian: 0%
Iranians: 14%
Japanese: 2%
Lithuanians: 11%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 72%
Yemenite Jew: 0%

Believe you me, that calculator is perhaps the worst one that I have ever seen.

Raza94
08-29-2018, 04:16 PM
How accurate is this calculator as of now?

26284729292
08-29-2018, 08:29 PM
I don't understand these reference groups. Someone told me these Tamils are "upper caste"/affluent, but i don't even know what that means. If these are "true" tamils, or Dalits/OBC that make up the majority of the population, I doubt many forward caste people here are 80% "Tamil".

I'm not a fan.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-29-2018, 08:45 PM
I don't understand these reference groups. Someone told me these Tamils are "upper caste"/affluent, but i don't even know what that means. If these are "true" tamils, or Dalits/OBC that make up the majority of the population, I doubt many forward caste people here are 80% "Tamil".

I'm not a fan.

OBC term shouldn't be used in conversation about genetics. OBC includes majority of Punjabi biradaris like arains, sainis, kamboh and tarkhans. While Baniyas who are similar to chamars genetically are forward caste.

On the calc since so many people are questioning it, it is not a calc to give you accurate results. Razib Khan is an independent researcher who research the genetics structure of south asia and posts his thoughts about it or of he finds something interesting. By sending him your data you're basically becoming part of his study.

This calc should not be used to find out ancestry.

26284729292
08-29-2018, 08:52 PM
OBC term shouldn't be used in conversation about genetics. OBC includes majority of Punjabi biradaris like arains, sainis, kamboh and tarkhans. While Baniyas who are similar to chamars genetically are forward caste.

On the calc since so many people are questioning it, it is not a calc to give you accurate results. Razib Khan is an independent researcher who research the genetics structure of south asia and posts his thoughts about it or of he finds something interesting. By sending him your data you're basically becoming part of his study.

This calc should not be used to find out ancestry.

My b man. OBC in the south is a different term. In the north caste is more "arbitrary" genetics wise. I understand that. I meant in the context of the Tamil population, OBC has a very clear, well defined meaning with regard to genotype.

Rustyshakelford
03-31-2019, 05:09 PM
He updated the spreadsheet

Here’s mine:

Tamil 70%
Iranian 29%
Cambodian 1%

aaronbee2010
03-31-2019, 11:29 PM
He updated the spreadsheet

Here’s mine:

Tamil 70%
Iranian 29%
Cambodian 1%

Still debating whether to send him my FTDNA file now, or when I get my Dante Labs result on YFull (as I can send him updated subclade results instead of the ones I have now). They said my results will be ready by June, although they have to send over the .BAM file so that could take another 1-2 months.

26284729292
03-31-2019, 11:47 PM
He updated the spreadsheet

Here’s mine:

Tamil 70%
Iranian 29%
Cambodian 1%

I swear this is one of the oddest projects I've seen.

FrostAssassin0701
03-31-2019, 11:53 PM
My mom gets:
1% Cambodian
3% Japanese
13% Iranian
8% Lithuanian
76% Tamil

Kulin
03-31-2019, 11:54 PM
I sent in my data today, hopefully sent to the correct address though lol.

Rustyshakelford
04-01-2019, 01:03 AM
Still debating whether to send him my FTDNA file now, or when I get my Dante Labs result on YFull (as I can send him updated subclade results instead of the ones I have now). They said my results will be ready by June, although they have to send over the .BAM file so that could take another 1-2 months.

It takes him a while to get back.. I emailed him my file back in November and he just responded yesterday

aaronbee2010
04-01-2019, 11:06 AM
It takes him a while to get back.. I emailed him my file back in November and he just responded yesterday

Well I'm not getting my results anytime soon :D

Amber29
04-02-2019, 06:59 PM
He updated the spreadsheet

Here’s mine:

Tamil 70%
Iranian 29%
Cambodian 1%

what did you send and who did you sent it too?

Rustyshakelford
04-03-2019, 03:30 AM
what did you send and who did you sent it too?

I sent my FTDNA file to this email: [email protected]

Here’s what to include in the subject line: https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/12/02/south-asian-genotype-project/

Amber29
04-03-2019, 02:00 PM
I sent my FTDNA file to this email: [email protected]

Here’s what to include in the subject line: https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017/12/02/south-asian-genotype-project/

The ftdna file u mean bam or raw???

Rustyshakelford
04-03-2019, 02:06 PM
The ftdna file u mean bam or raw???

Raw build 37

Amber29
04-03-2019, 02:27 PM
Raw build 37

Thank you will do this as soon as i hit home��

subzero85
09-06-2020, 03:16 PM
ID: UP_Awadh_Muslim_1

Cambodian: 4%
Iranians: 31%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanians: 7%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 57%
Yemenite Jews: 0%

ThaYamamoto
09-06-2020, 03:39 PM
ID: UP_Awadh_Muslim_1

Cambodian: 4%
Iranians: 31%
Japanese: 0%
Lithuanians: 7%
Papuan: 0%
Tamil: 57%
Yemenite Jews: 0%

Is he still offering to run peoples' data?

subzero85
09-06-2020, 04:30 PM
Is he still offering to run peoples' data?

No idea, he did my results in 2018.