PDA

View Full Version : The Ashkenazi Jewish Genome



Jean M
09-06-2013, 08:43 PM
S. Carmi et al., The Ashkenazi Jewish Genome.


Ashkenazi Jews (AJ) number ≈10 million individuals worldwide, mostly in the US and Israel. In accordance with historical records, recent studies showed that AJ are genetically homogeneous with mixed European and Middle-Eastern ancestry and that the AJ population had undergone a severe bottleneck around 800ya followed by an extremely rapid expansion. These characteristics make the AJ population highly attractive for genetic studies. Here, we report the sequencing of 128 complete genomes of healthy AJ individuals. Sequencing was carried out by Complete Genomics to coverage >50x, and achieved 97% call rate, Ti/Tv=2.14, and 99.7% concordance with SNP arrays. Additional cleaning further reduced the number of false positives to just ≈5000, as determined by examining runs-of-homozygosity. We show that our AJ sequencing panel is 3- fold more effective in filtering out benign variants in clinical AJ genomes than a European, non-Jewish panel. Similarly, our AJ panel reduced the inaccuracy of AJ array imputation, for both rare and common alleles, by 10-20%. Inspection of specific genes related to AJ genetic disorders identified known disease mutations as well as dozens of additional risk alleles. Population-genetic comparison of the AJ genomes to 26 Flemish genomes sequenced using the same technology revealed increased heterozygosity and less allele sharing in AJ, in accordance with the AJ admixed nature and partial Middle-Eastern origin. On the other hand, AJ showed more population-specific allele sharing, higher load of deleterious alleles, and a smaller overall projected number of variants, potentially due to the recent bottleneck. Analysis of identical-by-descent segments, which are abundant in AJ and highly informative on recent history, confirmed a recent severe bottleneck of merely ≈300-400 individuals. Using the allele frequency spectrum, which is informative on ancient history, we inferred the time of the Out-of-Africa founder event to be ≈52,000±4000ya, and the fraction of European ancestry in AJ to be ≈55±2%. We also inferred the split between the ancestral Middle-Eastern population and contemporary Europeans to be as recent as ≈11,000±500ya, suggesting the genetic origin of modern-day Europeans is predominantly Neolithic, and much later than the first dated Homo sapiens migration into Europe. This result, made possible by our pioneering sequencing of individuals with Middle-Eastern ancestry, resolves a long-standing debate over European origins.


http://abstracts.ashg.org

seferhabahir
09-06-2013, 11:18 PM
A recent severe bottleneck of 300-400 individuals is consistent with Gil Atzmon's 2011 thinking as quoted in:

http://nymag.com/news/features/ashkenazi-jews-2011-11/index2.html

"Ashkenazim branched off from other Jews around the time of the destruction of the First Temple, 2,500 years ago. They flourished during the Roman Empire but then went through a “severe bottleneck” as they dispersed, reducing a population of several million to just 400 families who left Northern Italy around the year 1000 for Central and eventually Eastern Europe."

Do the authors of this paper derive the same size bottleneck independently through their IBD analysis? It would seem so based on the abstract. No wonder I have 2200 Family Finder cousins, with some sticky DNA segments (presumably IBD) as small as 1-2 cM shared by up to 100 different matches.

[Edit: OK, after locating the abstract on-line I can see that Ostrer and Atzmon are co-authors, so they are pretty much confirming their own earlier bottleneck estimates.]

palamede
09-07-2013, 06:58 PM
A recent severe bottleneck of 300-400 individuals is consistent with Gil Atzmon's 2011 thinking as quoted in:

http://nymag.com/news/features/ashkenazi-jews-2011-11/index2.html

"Ashkenazim branched off from other Jews around the time of the destruction of the First Temple, 2,500 years ago. They flourished during the Roman Empire but then went through a “severe bottleneck” as they dispersed, reducing a population of several million to just 400 families who left Northern Italy around the year 1000 for Central and eventually Eastern Europe."



I don't believe 2 things
1) i don't believe they were several millions Jews at the time of the Roman Empire. One million in the Jewish religion is a great maximum.

2) I don't believe there was a bottleneck after Charlemagne : The political and economical state from Charlemagne 's time was favourable enough to have a more imprtant jewish population, even in the misfortunes of the 14e century, the Great Plague and the slaughters.

If there was a bottleneck, it was certainly about 600AD after the episodes of Justinian Plagues with the general reduction of European population in a defavourable climate and the towns reduced to a village size. The reprisal of demography was in the second half of the 7th century progressive until Charlemagne reign, some difficulties between 840 and 940 by not catastrophic.
Anyway in the Middle Age, fast population growing as in modern times, is not possible because the sanitory state and famines.

If bottleneck, the only possible date is 1400 years ago, and not 800 years ago. Error is probably due to the surestimation of mutation rate..

AJL
09-07-2013, 07:08 PM
I don't believe 2 things
1) i don't believe they were several millions Jews at the time of the Roman Empire. One million in the Jewish religion is a great maximum.

2) I don't believe there was a bottleneck after Charlemagne : The political and economical state from Charlemagne 's time was favourable enough to have a more imprtant jewish population, even in the misfortunes of the 14e century, the Great Plague and the slaughters.

If there was a bottleneck, it was certainly about 600AD after the episodes of Justinian Plagues with the general reduction of European population in a defavourable climate and the towns reduced to a village size. The reprisal of demography was in the second half of the 7th century progressive until Charlemagne reign, some difficulties between 840 and 940 by not catastrophic.
Anyway in the Middle Age, fast population growing as in modern times, is not possible because the sanitory state and famines.

If bottleneck, the only possible date is 1400 years ago, and not 800 years ago. Error is probably due to the surestimation of mutation rate..

I don't see how you can be so sure of this. The Justinian Plagues primarily affected the Eastern Roman Empire, and are not documented to have prompted the prejudicial climate that is documented to have occurred after the Black Death

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1348-jewsblackdeath.asp

and moreover do not match the dating the geneticists have arrived at.

palamede
09-07-2013, 09:36 PM
I don't see how you can be so sure of this. The Justinian Plagues primarily affected the Eastern Roman Empire, and are not documented to have prompted the prejudicial climate that is documented to have occurred after the Black Death

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1348-jewsblackdeath.asp

and moreover do not match the dating the geneticists have arrived at.

In Gaul in the second half of 6th century, terrible episodes of Justinian plagues are related by Gregory, bishop of Tours.
In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian , you can read the following text

Some scholars[8] have suggested that the plague facilitated the Anglo-Saxon conquest of Britain, since its aftermath coincided with the renewed Saxon offensives in the 550s, after a period during which the Saxons were contained. British sources from this period report plague, but Saxon ones are silent (as there are no sixth-century English documents). The Romano-British may have been disproportionately affected because of trade contacts with Gaul and other factors,[9] such as British settlement patterns being more dispersive than English ones, which "could have served to facilitate plague transmission by the rat".[10] The differential effects may have been exaggerated. In this era, British sources are more likely to report natural disasters than Saxon ones.[citation needed] In addition, "the evidence for artifact trade between the British and the English" implies significant interaction and "just minimal interaction would surely have involved a high risk of plague transmission".[10]


800 years ago, the 12th century was a properous time for the European inhabitants, including the very numerous Jewish settlements in hundreds l towns of Western Europe and an important time for the Jewish Culture with a lot of exemples. There are a lot of testimonies.

In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_France

Merovingian Period
It is known that the Christian clergy participated in their feasts; intermarriage between Jews and Christians sometimes occurred; the Jews made proselytes, and their religious customs were so freely adopted that at the third Council of Orléans (539) it was found necessary to warn the faithful against Jewish "superstitions", and to order them to abstain from traveling on Sunday and from adorning their persons or dwellings on that day. In the 6th century, a Jewish community thrived in Paris.[8] A synagogue was built on the Ile de la Cite, but was later torn down and a church was erected instead.[8]

In 629 King Dagobert proposed to drive from his domains all Jews who would not accept Christianity, from his reign to that of Pepin the Short no further mention of the Jews is found. But in the south of France, which was then known as "Septimania" and was a dependency of the Visigothic kings of Spain, the Jews continued to dwell and to prosper. From this epoch (689) dates the earliest known Jewish inscription relating to France, that of Narbonne. The Jews of Narbonne, chiefly merchants, were popular among the people, who often rebelled against the Visigothic kings.

Carolingian Period
It is certain that the Jews were numerous in France under Charlemagne, their position being regulated by law. Exchanges with the Orient strongly declined with the advent of the Saracens in the Mediterranean sea , while oriental products such as gold, silk, black pepper or papyrus almost disappeared under the Carolingians. The only real link between the Orient and Occident was insured by the Radhanites Jewish traders.[9]

A formula for the Jewish oath was fixed by Charlemagne. They were allowed to enter into lawsuits with Christians, and in their relations with the latter were restrained only from making them work on Sunday. They were not allowed to trade in currency, wine, or grain. Of more importance is the fact that they were tried by the emperor himself, to whom they belonged. It is a curious fact that among the numerous provincial councils which met during Charlemagne's reign not one concerned itself with the Jews, although these had increased in number. Louis le Débonnaire (814–833), faithful to the principles of his father, granted strict protection to the Jews, to whom he gave special attention in their position as merchants.

11th and 12th centuries

Franco-Jewish literature
During this period, which continues until the First Crusade, also saw the awakening of Jewish culture in the south and north of France. The initial interest included poetry, which was at times purely liturgical, but which more often was a simple scholastic exercise without aspiration, destined rather to amuse and instruct than to move. Following this came Biblical exegesis, the simple interpretation of the text, with neither daring nor depth, reflecting a complete faith in traditional interpretation, and based by preference upon the Midrashim, despite their fantastic character. Finally, and above all, their attention was occupied with the Talmud and its commentaries. The text of this work, together with that of the writings of the Geonim, particularly their responsa, was first revised and copied; then these writings were treated as a corpus juris, and were commented upon and studied both as a pious exercise in dialectics and from the practical point of view. There was no philosophy, no natural science, no belles-lettres, among the French Jews of this period.[citation needed]

The great Jewish figure which dominated the second half of the 11th century, as well as the whole rabbinical history of France, was the Ashkenazi Rabbi Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki) of Troyes (1040–1106). He personified the genius of northern French Judaism: its devoted attachment to tradition; its untroubled faith; its piety, ardent but free from mysticism. His works are distinguished by their clarity, directness, and are written in a simple, concise, unaffected style, suited to his subject. His commentary on the Talmud, which was the product of colossal labor, and which eclipsed the similar works of all his predecessors, by its clarity and soundness made easy the study of that vast compilation, and soon become its indispensable complement. Every edition of the Talmud that was ever published has this commentary printed on the same page of the Talmud itself. His commentary on the Bible (particularly on the Pentateuch), a sort of repertory of the Midrash, served for edification, but also advanced the taste for seeking the plain and true meaning of the bible. The school which he founded at Troyes, his birthplace, after having followed the teachings of those of Worms and Mainz, immediately became famous.

.....

Expulsion from France, 1182


A miniature from Grandes Chroniques de France depicting the expulsion
The First Crusade led to nearly a century of accusations (blood libel) against the Jews, many of whom were burned or attacked in France. Immediately after the coronation of Philip Augustus on 14 March 1181, the King ordered the Jews arrested on a Saturday, in all their synagogues, and despoiled of their money and their investments. In the following April 1182, he published an edict of expulsion, but according the Jews a delay of three months for the sale of their personal property. Immovable property, however, such as houses, fields, vines, barns, and wine-presses, he confiscated. The Jews attempted to win over the nobles to their side, but in vain. In July they were compelled to leave the royal domains of France (and not the whole kingdom); their synagogues were converted into churches. These successive measures were simply expedients to fill the royal coffers. The goods confiscated by the king were at once converted into cash.
During the century which terminated so disastrously for the Jews their condition was not altogether bad, especially if compared with that of their brethren in Germany. Thus may be explained the remarkable intellectual activity which existed among them, the attraction which it exercised over the Jews of other countries, and the numerous works produced in those days. The impulse given by Rashi to study did not cease with his death; his successors—the members of his family first among them—brilliantly continued his work. Research moved within the same limits as in the preceding century, and dealt mainly with the Talmud, rabbinical jurisprudence, and Biblical exegesis.[citation needed]

Recalled by Philip Augustus, 1198

For the desastrous climate of the 6th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536
http://medievalhistorygeek.wordpress.com/2010/10/17/sixth-century-climate-change/

For France and Europe in general, about 600AD was a low point very sinister in all domains: very few archeological remains, Point zero for culture, arts and even for religious culture reanimated by Irish monks.

History is more exact than genetic extimation .Mutation rates are still very imprecise and would deserve you keep some prudence in the believings .

AJL
09-07-2013, 11:47 PM
History is more exact than genetic extimation

Geneticists might make errors, but DNA does not manipulate facts, as historians sometimes do. (Though geneticists might manipulate numbers, as individuals.)

What I think you might not know is that about 70% of Jews as of AD ~600-950 were in Babylon, with many of the rest elsewhere in West Asia/the Near East and North Africa, and only a minority in Europe.

palamede
09-08-2013, 06:00 AM
What I think you might not know is that about 70% of Jews as of AD ~600-950 were in Babylon, with many of the rest elsewhere in West Asia/the Near East and North Africa, and only a minority in Europe.


I have ignored the city of Babylon was still inhabited in AD ~600-950. Thanks a lot to learn me.


It is a joke. I suppose you wanted to say about 70% of Jews as of AD ~600-950 were in Omeyad and Abassid Califates, and a lot in Bagdad, the capital of Abassids .

From Babylon to Bagdad , the capitals of successive empires in Middle East were the neighbouring cities, Seleucia and then Ctesiphon.

seferhabahir
09-08-2013, 07:05 AM
It is still a fact that at the end of the 10th century, of the three broad groups of Jewish subcultures, the smallest were Ashkenazic Jews.The next biggest were Sephardim, and the largest group by far were Jews of Arab lands (North Africa and Middle East as AJL states), and remained so for centuries. That is reiterated in a book I just read about the Cairo Genizah. If you throw in the devastating effects of the wholesale slaughters of many Ashkenazi communities in France and Germany during the Plague, I can see how a very small bottleneck could occur for Ashkenazi Jewish populations.

I made my post mostly because I was intrigued by the very small number (300-400) that was stated in the abstract. It's much smaller than other estimates I have seen (several thousands to maybe a few tens of thousands). The initial post of this thread by Jean M was about how the authors inferred the split between the ancestral Middle-Eastern population and contemporary Europeans to be as recent as ≈11,000±500ya, suggesting the genetic origin of modern-day Europeans is predominantly Neolithic. Maybe you might prefer to talk about that instead.

palamede
09-08-2013, 08:42 AM
It is still a fact that at the end of the 10th century, of the three broad groups of Jewish subcultures, the smallest were Ashkenazic Jews.The next biggest were Sephardim, and the largest group by far were Jews of Arab lands (North Africa and Middle East as AJL states), and remained so for centuries. That is reiterated in a book I just read about the Cairo Genizah. If you throw in the devastating effects of the wholesale slaughters of many Ashkenazi communities in France and Germany during the Plague, I can see how a very small bottleneck could occur for Ashkenazi Jewish populations.

I made my post mostly because I was intrigued by the very small number (300-400) that was stated in the abstract. It's much smaller than other estimates I have seen (several thousands to maybe a few tens of thousands). The initial post of this thread by Jean M was about how the authors inferred the split between the ancestral Middle-Eastern population and contemporary Europeans to be as recent as ≈11,000±500ya, suggesting the genetic origin of modern-day Europeans is predominantly Neolithic. Maybe you might prefer to talk about that instead.

1) I don't believe "the time of the Out-of-Africa founder event to be ≈52,000±4000ya"
2) I don't believe "the ancestral Middle-Eastern population and contemporary Europeans to be as recent as ≈11,000±500ya, "
3) I dont' believe in a Askenaze bottleneck 800 years ago.
I believe the real dates are a lot older.

But I believe in the very quick scientific progresses for the new 5 years, specially for the datations of the SNPs and my global attitude is WAIT and SEE .

Silesian
09-08-2013, 03:01 PM
Geneticists might make errors, but DNA does not manipulate facts, as historians sometimes do. (Though geneticists might manipulate numbers, as individuals.)

Integrity and honesty are vital in both fields.
verb (used with object), ma·nip·u·lat·ed, ma·nip·u·lat·ing. 1. to manage or influence skillfully, especially in an unfair manner




What I think you might not know is that about 70% of Jews as of AD ~600-950 were in Babylon, with many of the rest elsewhere in West Asia/the Near East and North Africa, and only a minority in Europe.

Is this conjecture, as there is no known physical census taken, in the region/regions you are outlining? If fact, can you state your source?

lgmayka
09-08-2013, 03:10 PM
Part of the confusion in this thread stems from the misguided emphasis on a hypothesized "bottleneck" rather than on the subsequent well-documented phenomenal expansion. This "demographic miracle" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3032072/) expanded the Ashkenazi Jewish population of Poland-Lithuania from thousands into millions within the span of several centuries. The Ashkenazi community in Poland-Lithuania grew from a small offshoot into 2/3 of worldwide Jewry by the mid-18th century (http://www.jewishjournal.com/articles/item/timeline_jewish_life_in_poland_from_1098_20070608/), and continued to expand even after the occupation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by its three encircling empires.
---
Early 1300s: Fewer than 1,000 Jews in Poland
...
Late 1400s: More than 60 Jewish communities are known in Poland; population is thought to be 20,000 to 30,000
...
1764: Jewish population about 750,000; worldwide Jewish population estimated at 1.2 million
...
1800s: Tremendous growth of Jewish population (in 1781, 3,600 Jews in Warsaw or 4.5 percent of population; in 1897, 219,000 Jews in Warsaw or 33.9 percent of population)
---

Thus, it makes much more sense to emphasize a founder effect rather than a "bottleneck."

AJL
09-08-2013, 04:04 PM
Is this conjecture, as there is no known physical census taken, in the region/regions you are outlining? If fact, can you state your source?

Yes I can, but obviously palamede cannot provide a source for his conjectures beginning "I don't believe." Would you kindly explain why you attach your thanks to his post, yet try to grill me for sources for mine, unless you have some sort of agenda?

AJL
09-08-2013, 04:22 PM
Part of the confusion in this thread stems from the misguided emphasis on a hypothesized "bottleneck" rather than on the subsequent well-documented phenomenal expansion. This "demographic miracle" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3032072/) expanded the Ashkenazi Jewish population of Poland-Lithuania from thousands into millions within the span of several centuries. The Ashkenazi community in Poland-Lithuania grew from a small offshoot into 2/3 of worldwide Jewry by the mid-18th century (http://www.jewishjournal.com/articles/item/timeline_jewish_life_in_poland_from_1098_20070608/), and continued to expand even after the occupation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by its three encircling empires.
---
Early 1300s: Fewer than 1,000 Jews in Poland
...
Late 1400s: More than 60 Jewish communities are known in Poland; population is thought to be 20,000 to 30,000
...
1764: Jewish population about 750,000; worldwide Jewish population estimated at 1.2 million
...
1800s: Tremendous growth of Jewish population (in 1781, 3,600 Jews in Warsaw or 4.5 percent of population; in 1897, 219,000 Jews in Warsaw or 33.9 percent of population)
---

Thus, it makes much more sense to emphasize a founder effect rather than a "bottleneck."

This is always going to be an issue in human population genetics. If we have a population of x in year y and 10 000x in 200y, there is certainly a founder effect. Whether there was a bottleneck before is less on point, I suspect.

There rather clearly was a bottleneck in the 20th century, but probably too recently to have affected the current Ashkenazi genome, or rather there might be effects but if there are they likely will not be perceptible for several hundred years.

AJL
09-08-2013, 08:10 PM
Silesian:

I have deleted your post because your adding a different dictionary definition of "agenda" to the one I intended was nonsensical and pointless in the context of this thread, and might be construed as trolling. Please acquaint yourself with the forum rules, in particular

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7-Terms-of-Service-and-Forum-Rules

"3.10 Invectives devoid of substance (that is, threads or replies consisting solely of inflammatory content intended to flame or troll other members) will be considered junk postings and deleted."

Of course there were no censuses then, but I have several sources for my figures, including Shamir (ed.) Encyclopedia of Jewish History (1986), Swatos (ed.) Encyclopedia of Religion and Society (1997), and various other encyclopedias and reference works. What source, precisely, does palamede have for "I don't agree with the bulk of geneticists, historians, anthropologists, and so forth"?

Joe B
09-09-2013, 08:20 PM
What I think you might not know is that about 70% of Jews as of AD ~600-950 were in Babylon, with many of the rest elsewhere in West Asia/the Near East and North Africa, and only a minority in Europe. Saw this news release today regarding an archaeology find in Jerusalem.
Gold Hoard Discovered Near Temple Mount in Jerusalem (http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/june-2013/article/gold-hoard-discovered-near-temple-mount-in-jerusalem) or Rich History Unearthed in Jerusalem (http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/10945.18.0.0/middle-east/israel/rich-history-unearthed-in-jerusalem). I wonder if this relates to Jews from Babylonia about or around 600 C.E. and Persian control of Jerusalem at that time?
From Popular Archaeology
"Under the direction of archaeologist Eilat Mazar of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, the team had only just begun their dig season when, just 50 meters south of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, they found the hoard buried inside a Byzantine structure dating back to the sixth century C.E. The hoard appeared to be divided into two parts, or bundles. One contained the menorah medallion with an attached gold chain and other jewelry and appeared to have been undisturbed since its initial burial in the floor. The other, consisting of 36 gold coins, two gold earrings, a broken gold-plated silver pendant and a pure silver ingot, was found scattered across the floor, showing clear signs that, whoever possessed them 1,400 years ago, didn't have time to bury them."
Where did these Jews go or did they manage to stay and hide? Perhaps they went back to Persia or did they go on to Europe or North Africa?

AJL
09-09-2013, 09:53 PM
Joe:

Good question -- they may have been part of the minority who stayed around Jerusalem/Judeah and adjacent lands, or they may have descended from those who went to Persia or elsewhere. I also don't know if we can rule out that those valables were from the region, but older. Even if the structure was dated to ~600, in other words, I wonder if the valuables might not have been older? For instance, the menorah was a symbol of the Hasmoneans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty

Joe B
09-09-2013, 10:34 PM
Joe:

Good question -- they may have been part of the minority who stayed around Jerusalem/Judeah and adjacent lands, or they may have descended from those who went to Persia or elsewhere. I also don't know if we can rule out that those valables were from the region, but older. Even if the structure was dated to ~600, in other words, I wonder if the valuables might not have been older? For instance, the menorah was a symbol of the Hasmoneans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty
That's a good point about the valuables. I wonder if they can date the menorah or other symbols? This seems to be a rather significant find. And thanks for the link to another interesting subject, the Hasmonean dynasty.

From the Trumpet.com article (http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/10945.18.0.0/middle-east/israel/rich-history-unearthed-in-jerusalem)
Dr. Mazar and her team believe the menorah medallion, which hangs from a gold chain, and the other jewelry items found with it were probably used to adorn a Torah scroll—a practice that Jews have been known to do for millennia. If so, the medallion and accompanying items would be the earliest known Torah scroll ornaments ever discovered. This appears to be corroborated by the appearance of the Torah symbol on the medallion itself. A similar medallion displaying a Torah scroll alongside a menorah can be found on display in the Jewish Museum in London, though its origins are unknown.

The coins were last minted about 602 C.E. if that make a difference.

Numismatics expert Lior Sandberg, who examined the coins, concludes that the last possible date for their minting is 602 c.e. Therefore, the gold coins and their accompanying items must have been abandoned sometime after this date. Dr. Mazar postulates that the treasure was abandoned around the time of the Persian conquest of Jerusalem in 614 c.e.

AJL
09-09-2013, 11:08 PM
Joe:

I suspect isotope dating would be difficult with gold? Coin experts often have a good sense of the dating of coins through historical events, as you already mention. The end date of 602 does coincide nicely with the dating of the building.

The hypothesis of the Persian invasion is interesting but Jews at the time were not entirely opposed to Persian presence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian-Jewish_commonwealth

I wonder whether the hoard might not date from the Byzantine invasion slightly later.

Joe B
09-10-2013, 12:12 AM
Joe:

I suspect isotope dating would be difficult with gold?:beerchug::beerchug: Coin experts often have a good sense of the dating of coins through historical events, as you already mention. The end date of 602 does coincide nicely with the dating of the building.

The hypothesis of the Persian invasion is interesting but Jews at the time were not entirely opposed to Persian presence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian-Jewish_commonwealth

I wonder whether the hoard might not date from the Byzantine invasion slightly later.
It looks like this time period went from great promise for the Jewish people followed by another diaspora.
From the Trumpet.com article

After the city fell under Persian control, Jews flocked to Jerusalem, intent on returning and rebuilding their homeland. However, history recounts that as the Persians’ power waned, so did their support for the Jewish population. To appease the rising power of Christendom, the Persians betrayed the Jews and expelled them from Jerusalem.

From the wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian-Jewish_commonwealth Persians were very close allies with the Jews.
The Jewish rebels conjugated with the Persian Army took the upper hand in the struggle and secured rule over much of the Diocese of the East.
Are the dates from this time period accurate? Dr. Mazar says 614 C.E. as the year the treasure was buried which conflicts with the 622 C.E. date given by Abrahamson in the wiki article for the Byzantine return.

The Byzantine attack on Jewish contingent resulted in a slaughter of some 20,000 Jewish troops.[7] Heraclius, unsatisfied with Persian gestures, went on a rampage killing every Jew found in the country. Men, women and children are killed without mercy. By 622 CE, the Roman Emperor Heraclius had assembled an international army against the Persians. He had retaken all Judea (Palaestina Prima) from the Sasanian Persians.
I found the legacy of this period as described by the wiki Sasanian article to be the most interesting.

The attempt to establish the Third Temple during the Persian conquest of Palaestina is considered among the most ambitious Jewish attempts to regain control over Jerusalem in late Classic Era and early Middle Ages. Though little has eventually came out of this attempt, the historic impact of the event brought a serious reconsideration of the Messianic thought in Rabbinic Judaism. The establishment and quick abolishment of the Jewish autonomy also created a powerful impact on Jewish nationalism, which became practically dormant until the 16th century.

The demographic impact is thought to be among the key elements to prevent further Jewish attempts to return to Judea for almost a millennia. It is also possible that the crisis of the early 7th century, including the events of the Jewish revolt against Heraclius and the Muslim conquest of Syria resulted in Jewish migration to lower Germania and establishment of the Ashkenazi Jewry.

AJL
09-10-2013, 12:52 AM
Yes, I am not sure why it has to be 614 according to that article -- I'd have thought the Byzantine invasions of 622 were a much bigger disaster. In any event the 7th-10 centuries does seem to be a key time in the movement of the (proto-)Ashkenazi population(s).

Jean would know more about the dating of the house in which the coins were found, but I suspect the dating might be even more convincing if they'd recovered the coins inside a clay pot, urn, etc. There's oodles of pots floating around and everyone seems to know how to date them by their style.

Jean M
09-10-2013, 08:47 AM
Actually coins are better dating evidence than pots.

Jean M
09-10-2013, 08:50 AM
http://www.academia.edu/1175892/Dating_coins_dating_with_coins

ADW_1981
09-12-2013, 01:53 PM
Admixture Estimation in a Founder Population.

For the AJ, we estimated mean ancestral proportions of 0.380, 0.305, 0.113, 0.041 and 0.148 for Middle Eastern, Italian, French, Russian and Caucasus ancestry, respectively.


-- Interesting that the north European component is most like French, and the Khazar(Russian) influence is minimal. I would imagine from the data that the original Jews were either part of the Middle Eastern, or just as likely the Italian "bucket" if you will. Even if we assume an Italian founder effect, that host population would never have been wholly "Italian" from an admixture standpoint.

AJL
09-12-2013, 10:59 PM
Admixture Estimation in a Founder Population.

For the AJ, we estimated mean ancestral proportions of 0.380, 0.305, 0.113, 0.041 and 0.148 for Middle Eastern, Italian, French, Russian and Caucasus ancestry, respectively.


-- Interesting that the north European component is most like French, and the Khazar(Russian) influence is minimal. I would imagine from the data that the original Jews were either part of the Middle Eastern, or just as likely the Italian "bucket" if you will. Even if we assume an Italian founder effect, that host population would never have been wholly "Italian" from an admixture standpoint.

The difficult thing is to make sense of directionality in the Italian/Jewish case, because we have several complicating factors including Phoenicians, Greek colonization, Jews seeking converts in Rome in the first centuries AD, the Sea Peoples, possible Etruscan connections to West Asia, Sephardi settlement in Calabria, etc.

The Ashkenazi European component being French-like is not too odd because of Sephardic (Iberian), French, Italian, and Rhine German connections to the founding of the Ashkenazi community. What we can be quite certain of from both uniparental markers and BGA analyses is that Ashkenazi Jews are not wholly Italian, but that there is some European component, most probably in small amounts from a mixture of populations.

seferhabahir
09-13-2013, 01:00 AM
The difficult thing is to make sense of directionality in the Italian/Jewish case, because we have several complicating factors including Phoenicians, Greek colonization, Jews seeking converts in Rome in the first centuries AD, the Sea Peoples, possible Etruscan connections to West Asia, Sephardi settlement in Calabria, etc.

The Ashkenazi European component being French-like is not too odd because of Sephardic (Iberian), French, Italian, and Rhine German connections to the founding of the Ashkenazi community. What we can be quite certain of from both uniparental markers and BGA analyses is that Ashkenazi Jews are not wholly Italian, but that there is some European component, most probably in small amounts from a mixture of populations.

My autosomal DNA is in Doug McDonald's PCA terminology "Classic Jewish" with his chromosome mapping showing pretty much half Europe, half Middle East, and a smidgen (or is it a skosh) of African on one chromosome. DIYDodecad with K12b shows closest affinity with Ashkenazi and Sicilian, then followed by Sephardi and Greek. Probably pretty typical.

ADW_1981
09-13-2013, 06:03 PM
The Ashkenazi European component being French-like is not too odd because of Sephardic (Iberian), French, Italian, and Rhine German connections to the founding of the Ashkenazi community. What we can be quite certain of from both uniparental markers and BGA analyses is that Ashkenazi Jews are not wholly Italian, but that there is some European component, most probably in small amounts from a mixture of populations.

I think we'll find that a "South-European" like population (proxied as Italian-like) might have inhabited parts of West Asia and the Levant prior to the Romans and Mesopotamian expansion. I would just need to prove it. Hopefully more aDNA research can give us better insight if enough physical evidence still exists out there.

Ethereal
04-10-2018, 12:57 PM
So is the bottleneck date of about 700 years ago accurate?

kingjohn
04-10-2018, 02:16 PM
So is the bottleneck date of about 700 years ago accurate?

probably
you got the crusades and the black death choose one

ffoucart
04-12-2018, 01:36 AM
probably
you got the crusades and the black death choose one
I'm very doubtful about crusades as an explanation. For various reasons.
A better explanation would be political changes in how Jews were accepted in Western European societies. From a near égalité with Christians in the XIth century, things got worse and worse with time, culminating with expulsions in the late XIIId and early XIVth centuries from France and England.
Some studies have been made, and around half of Jewish population choose to convert and stay. The other half went in exile for a while.
Among those who converted, if in England they seemed to have difficulties to be assimilated, it was more easy in France. If you take as an example what happened in Provence in the XVIth century, in 2 or 3 generations the large majority of the descendants were fully assimilated in the overall Christian society. Cryptic Jews seem to have been rare.

So, if you add Black Death to exile, and the fact that Ashkenazi were only a small part of European Jews in the Middle Ages, a bottleneck in the XIVth century is perfectly logical. Even if a few hundreds is a low number.

palamede
04-13-2018, 10:40 AM
I'm very doubtful about crusades as an explanation. For various reasons.
A better explanation would be political changes in how Jews were accepted in Western European societies. From a near égalité with Christians in the XIth century, things got worse and worse with time, culminating with expulsions in the late XIIId and early XIVth centuries from France and England.
Some studies have been made, and around half of Jewish population choose to convert and stay. The other half went in exile for a while.
Among those who converted, if in England they seemed to have difficulties to be assimilated, it was more easy in France. If you take as an example what happened in Provence in the XVIth century, in 2 or 3 generations the large majority of the descendants were fully assimilated in the overall Christian society. Cryptic Jews seem to have been rare.

So, if you add Black Death to exile, and the fact that Ashkenazi were only a small part of European Jews in the Middle Ages, a bottleneck in the XIVth century is perfectly logical. Even if a few hundreds is a low number.
There was an important decreasing number of European Jews during 14th and 15th centuries, but I don't believe it was the real bottleneck.

If bottleneck , the right time would be the time after the Justinian Plague (542 AD) until about 740AD when the Jews are not mentionned yet. Time of general depopulation and disappearence of international trade and money trade.
There is a very important difference in the levels of these 2 crisis.

Ethereal
04-13-2018, 11:13 AM
There was an important decreasing number of European Jews during 14th and 15th centuries, but I don't believe it was the real bottleneck.

If bottleneck , the right time would be the time after the Justinian Plague (542 AD) until about 740AD when the Jews are not mentionned yet. Time of general depopulation and disappearence of international trade and money trade.
There is a very important difference in the levels of these 2 crisis.

Way too early - I emailed Carmi and he basically said it was from the few communities that moved into Poland, who then had a huge population explosion.

kingjohn
04-14-2018, 06:43 PM
Way too early - I emailed Carmi and he basically said it was from the few communities that moved into Poland, who then had a huge population explosion.

sound logic that it could happen in poland ....
either way those few communities moved from germany or france to poland

ffoucart
04-15-2018, 07:58 AM
sound logic that it could happen in poland ....
either way those few communities moved from germany or france to poland

Yes. A logical explanation. Since there were probably the first Jew to settle in the East, their number could have been very low, and with religious specificities, it could explain limited contact with other Jewish communities in Europe and founding effect (so a bottleneck of some sort).

Jews were too numerous in Provence, Italy or Spain 700 years ago to have reached a bottleneck (and Sephardi genome is clear on the subject: no bottleneck).

Ashkenazi history is therefore very specific.

Eterne
04-15-2018, 10:04 AM
@ffoucart, I don't doubt that's possible (no bottleneck in Sephardi), but do you know of any papers that show it to be the case?

There's an interesting cross sectional panel on RoH lengths in different Jewish populations here: https://rosenberglab.stanford.edu/papers/KangEtAl2016-HumHered.pdf. But this is informative more about recent community size... Small population sizes may be typical, large population sizes in present day AJ unusual?