PDA

View Full Version : R1a-M458-L1029*



Dibran
01-06-2018, 06:46 PM
Hi all,

So I finally received my full genomes file. I haven't been able to reach Michal. However, the admins at Albanian Bloodlines were able to look over my interpretation file. I am positive for L1029 but do not share any of the downstream SNPs on Yfull. So I am predicted to fall under L1029*. TMRCA seems to be 2000ybp, if I am reading correctly. I may or may not share a SNP with the German or Norwegian sample. I will have to wait until I receive my BAM file monday, to upload to Yfull to see exactly how it splits. I have 26 unique SNPs. Only one of which I share with 2 kits on FullGenomes. Idk their country of origin, but TMCA between us was 2,340 years(common ancestor approximately 340 BC).

I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029. If the TMRCA is 2000ypb. How could it have arrived in Albania?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

https://s14.postimg.org/pspa1t4tt/L1029.jpg

Dibran
01-06-2018, 08:25 PM
Bump...any input?

lgmayka
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
Do we have a reasonable explanation for how a rare 1500-year-old subclade of R-L1029 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC66325/) ended up in Beijing and southeastern Poland?

Pribislav
01-06-2018, 11:10 PM
I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029. If the TMRCA is 2000ypb. How could it have arrived in Albania?

Could you elaborate the second sentence? Slavs carried wide array of M458 clades, including the rare ones, so your clade most likely arrived with Slavs, as we know they've settled large parts of Albania and Macedonia.

Tomenable
01-07-2018, 02:47 AM
Do we have a reasonable explanation for how a rare 1500-year-old subclade of R-L1029 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC66325/) ended up in Beijing and southeastern Poland?

Maybe?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_of_Poland

dink
01-07-2018, 06:23 AM
your clade most likely arrived with Slavs, as we know they've settled large parts of Albania and Macedonia.

Captain obvious.

Waldemar
01-07-2018, 09:32 AM
We definitely need more aDNA samples to determine the origin of R-L1029.

I belong to currently only known sample of R-Y2912* (formed 1800 ybp, TMRCA 1700 ybp). Downstream clades of R-Y2912 belong to people who have paternal ancestors from Poland (Silesia, Kashubia, East Prussia) and Germany (Baden-Württemberg, Saxony).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2912/

Upstream clade R-YP263* (formed 2000 ybp, TMRCA 1800 ybp) was found in Gotland, Holstein and Circassia.

Maybe first waves of R-L1029 arrived to the Balkans and Sardinia along with East Germanic or/and Sarmatian tribes. "The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways."

Dibran
01-07-2018, 02:35 PM
Could you elaborate the second sentence? Slavs carried wide array of M458 clades, including the rare ones, so your clade most likely arrived with Slavs, as we know they've settled large parts of Albania and Macedonia.

What I meant was that it is Balto-Slavic derived as in it came from NE europe at some point in time. But, what I meant with regards to my sample, is that I lack ALL not some, but ALL downstream SNPs that formed as a result of great migration patterns. My TMRCA is also 2000ypb which is before the great migration events. While its still likely, there is also probability it had other avenues of arrival. Considering L1029* is a little more widespread, and given its older TMRCA, it could just as easily been absorbed by the movement of East Germanic tribes. Even the Bastarnae spread throughout eastern Europe. Tribes were less compact and more mobile back then.

I think people are just too quick to label an entire lineage Slavic. And be so stubborn to consider other avenues of transmission. For example the Sardinian L1029*(assuming he is native), could only have been transmitted by Vandals, Goths, or Byzantines.

The only way I see it being specifically Slavic(as in the earliest ancestor to bring it spoke Slavic themselves) is if it was via hired Antes mercenaries that Romans used against the Huns much earlier, or small waves of slavic farmers that settled byzantium prior to the larger great migration wave.

Also, my village was settled by German forces in 900ad. They could have just as easily also brought it. my TMRCA lines up with the time frame of some east germanic tribal incursions into byzantium. Give the wide expanse of land traversed by Bastarnae, they could have easily absorbed it. The Dacians at their peak occupied up to the Balts, where L1029 could have been absorbed. There is any number of possible scenarios.

If I was further downstream of L1029, I think it would be obvious the likely arrival was from Avaro-Slavs during the great migration. I lack all of them though. This brings that scenario into question.

There were numerous tribes in late BC/early AD that penetrated the Balkans. Many of these tribes spread out in east europe as well. I think adopting a sense of certainty is counter productive. After all the science is still in its infancy, and people are still using modern social cultural distinctions and borders to extract these narratives.

If all my Y12 matches for instances are spread from east to central europe, theres no certainty or guarantee that our ancestral match spoke Slavic just because the modern match was Slavic. Take V13 for instance. Not all of it is Albanian or brought by Albanians, just because its predominantly found in them.

Sorry if I wrote an essay, but you said to elaborate on that sentence haha.

Trojet
01-07-2018, 03:12 PM
Dibran, I think you might be confused in regards to TMRCA estimates. In this case The Most Recent Common Ancestor of anyone who is under L1029 lived ~2000 years ago. If we assume that L1029 expanded out of Central or Eastern Europe, then your line could've migrated to Albania sometime after 2000 years ago, and not exactly 2000 years ago.

The Italian who is right underneath L1029 is not L1029* (which would mean negative for all downstreams). The reason why he is placed as such must be because his status is unknown (whether positive or negative) for one or more L1029 sub-branches.

Anyways, we need to wait until the YFull analysis is done to confirm terminal placement. Also, another thing to keep in mind is if you end up being L1029* or share a SNP with an existing L1029* sample, it doesn't mean that you will stay forever like that. As we know, the YFull tree is based on only NGS tests which not every L1029 has taken. So there may be other L1029 out there who in the future take an NGS test and share one or more of your Novel or Unique SNPs, and therefore will form a sub-branch with a younger TMRCA between you two.

dink
01-07-2018, 03:15 PM
Maybe it came to the Balkans with space aliens.

Dibran
01-07-2018, 03:53 PM
Maybe it came to the Balkans with space aliens.

You stand out like a sore thumb Dick.

lgmayka
01-07-2018, 04:02 PM
In this case The Most Recent Common Ancestor of anyone who is under L1029 lived ~2000 years.
To be fair, Michał has often claimed that:

- We should add 10-20% to YFull TMRCAs. This would give L1029 a TMRCA of 2200-2400 years.

- A clade incubates (comes to prominence within a clan/tribe) over a long interval (500-1000 years). We could hypothesize that Dibran's lineage is actually a clade, as yet unidentified by YFull due to undersampling of his region. One could then further hypothesize that this clade rose to promiinence within a particular clan, which then traveled south as part of the Slavic expansion.

But as Dibran points out, many hypotheses are possible.

Dibran
01-07-2018, 04:03 PM
Dibran, I think you might be confused in regards to TMRCA estimates. In this case The Most Recent Common Ancestor of anyone who is under L1029 lived ~2000 years. If we assume that L1029 expanded out of Central or Eastern Europe, then your line could've migrated to Albania sometime after 2000 years ago, and not exactly 2000 years ago.

The Italian who is right underneath L1029 is not L1029* (which would mean negative for all downstreams). The reason why he is placed as such must be because his status is unknown (whether positive or negative) for one or more L1029 sub-branches.

Anyways, we need to wait until the YFull analysis is done to confirm terminal placement. Also, another thing to keep in mind is if you end up being L1029* or share a SNP with an existing L1029* sample, it doesn't mean that you will stay forever like that. As we know, the YFull tree is based on only NGS tests which not every L1029 has taken. So there may be other L1029 out there who in the future take an NGS test and share one or more of your Novel or Unique SNPs, and therefore will form a sub-branch with a younger TMRCA between you two.

The point I am making is with a lack of downstream SNPs, theres no certainty it only arrived with Slavs. I think people are being a little closed minded here. Ignoring numerous scenarios with the movements of tribes and peoples throughout central and eastern europe. To say L1029 was only brought to the Balkans by Slavic speakers is to adopt a level of certainty absent any scientific fact. Is all J2b Albanian? Is all E-V13 Albanian? No, of course not.

It is a well known fact East Germanic tribes, and even Dacians occupied eastern Europe and even spread up to the Balts. Whether it was originally Balto-Slavic is besides the point. There is no certainty the early ancestor to carry it was a Slavic speaker. Assuming any and all L1029 only came in the great migration with Slavs is a little ignorant.

I don't share any downstream SNPs associated with the time frame of the migration period. Many people seem to ignore insurmountable factors that are at play, for an easy clean cut explanation.

Theres as much certainty my line came with a East Germanic tribe as there is with it coming with a Slavic tribe. The science is still to early to make concrete conclusions. Using modern socio-cultural constructs and borders, to define the lineages and their sporadic movements of the past, is part of the problem.

Dibran
01-07-2018, 04:16 PM
To be fair, Michał has often claimed that:

- We should add 10-20% to YFull TMRCAs. This would give L1029 a TMRCA of 2200-2400 years.

- A clade incubates (comes to prominence within a clan/tribe) over a long interval (500-1000 years). We could hypothesize that Dibran's lineage is actually a clade, as yet unidentified by YFull due to undersampling of his region. One could then further hypothesize that this clade rose to promiinence within a particular clan, which then traveled south as part of the Slavic expansion.

But as Dibran points out, many hypotheses are possible.

Exactly. I don't deny any possible scenario at play. It could have arrived with Slavs, but lack of those downstream mutations representative of those migrations brings that into question. Which is why I considered Slavic still, if it were early Antes roman mercenaries or early farmers in Greece before the major migration waves. Not only did the Normans, but also the Germans settled in my area. And whilst L1029 is not typical for Normans, they could have abosrbed it, as I have read plenty about some Slavs assimilating into their tribes in Scandinavia. By the time the Normans arrived they could have brought it on their campaign through Albania.

I just don't like how people act certain when there's still very little we really know. Majority of the stuff I hear about haplogroups has never actually been confirmed by any real science. If my earliest ancestor participated in the same movement patterns, it should be evident. Maybe he was an early Slav that offered his skills to the Romans or Byzantines? Or maybe a Goth or Bastarnae whose ancestor was assimilated by those tribes at some early point. Just a look of the Y-DNA distribution of Arberesh in south Italy and modern Albanians is enough to see how Y-DNA radically changed in only 500 years. Multiply that by 4, and consider all the possibilities at play. Be they political, war, famine, migration(be it individually or collectively).

Waldemar
01-07-2018, 04:25 PM
https://s9.postimg.org/p7y0qwhfj/20180107_162242.png
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults

Dibran
01-07-2018, 04:37 PM
https://s9.postimg.org/p7y0qwhfj/20180107_162242.png
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=yresults

I wonder if the 2 German samples and Norway sample and the unknown are the same ones from Yfull.

Waldemar
01-07-2018, 04:42 PM
I wonder if the 2 German samples and Norway sample and the unknown are the same ones from Yfull.

Yup.
https://s9.postimg.org/n5xjclm0f/20180107_163945.png

2 samples from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (Germany), 1 from Akershus (Norway), 1 from Poland (not analysed by YFull) and 1 of unknown origin.

Dibran
01-07-2018, 05:24 PM
Yup.
https://s9.postimg.org/n5xjclm0f/20180107_163945.png

2 samples from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (Germany), 1 from Akershus (Norway), 1 from Poland (not analysed by YFull) and 1 of unknown origin.

Cool. I should have my BAM file Monday.

Dibran
01-07-2018, 06:55 PM
To be fair, Michał has often claimed that:

- We should add 10-20% to YFull TMRCAs. This would give L1029 a TMRCA of 2200-2400 years.

- A clade incubates (comes to prominence within a clan/tribe) over a long interval (500-1000 years). We could hypothesize that Dibran's lineage is actually a clade, as yet unidentified by YFull due to undersampling of his region. One could then further hypothesize that this clade rose to promiinence within a particular clan, which then traveled south as part of the Slavic expansion.

But as Dibran points out, many hypotheses are possible.

One thing I completely didn't think to mention. The Varangian Guard. They were hired from Scandinavia(assimilated Balto-Slav), up to the Balts and conscripts of Kievan Rus. It eventually became a profession moreso than a Viking only association. They eventually had Varangians from Huscarls, and Englishman(who also have L1029). Theres any number of scenarios. Our family's history has mostly been between Albania Greece and Macedonia. We also come from a very isolated district of an already somewhat isolated region of Albania.

I feel like that scenario would make sense. You would expect to find lets say L1029* in north east Europe(considering no participation in the migration). Then take the political landscape of the time. Its not a mystery. Varangians had Slavs and Balts in their ranks as well. Its just as likely a possibility.

Dibran
01-08-2018, 02:48 AM
.............


...........

Finally got my BAM file. Uploading to my Google Drive now. Shortly will be uploading to Yfull. Now we wait.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-08-2018, 03:01 AM
Exactly. I don't deny any possible scenario at play. It could have arrived with Slavs, but lack of those downstream mutations representative of those migrations brings that into question. Which is why I considered Slavic still, if it were early Antes roman mercenaries or early farmers in Greece before the major migration waves.

There will always be outliers within a population. Eg. not all L1029 Slavs will have the same set of mutations, there will be relics and minorities. And whilst I agree that nothing is set in stone until aDNA confirms it, the possibilities of Normans and Basternae are pale shadows c.f. the most plausible explanation.

Dibran
01-08-2018, 03:17 AM
There will always be outliers within a population. Eg. not all L1029 Slavs will have the same set of mutations, there will be relics and minorities. And whilst I agree that nothing is set in stone until aDNA confirms it, the possibilities of Normans and Basternae are pale shadows c.f. the most plausible explanation.

Thats your opinion and thats fine. However, any scenario is a likely scenario. Nothing can be ignored. Until theres ADNA to confirm the staunch opinions of some on this subject, alternate hypotheses are as good as any.

Gravetto-Danubian
01-08-2018, 04:00 AM
Thats your opinion and thats fine. However, any scenario is a likely scenario. Nothing can be ignored. Until theres ADNA to confirm the staunch opinions of some on this subject, alternate hypotheses are as good as any.

We are not talking about politics or Ice cream flavours, therefor I'd like to think my views are more than opinions, but ultimately I agree.

lgmayka
01-08-2018, 04:18 AM
Finally got my BAM file.
I'm surprised. I thought that FTDNA was not going to restart BAM file generation until the hg38 conversion was complete--which it is most definitely not.

white2k
01-08-2018, 08:24 AM
Maybe?:

Interesting.

Since the monk must be celibate, it's more likely because of Mongol invasions of Poland.

Waldemar
01-08-2018, 09:07 AM
We definitely need more aDNA samples to determine the origin of R-L1029.

I belong to currently only known sample of R-Y2912* (formed 1800 ybp, TMRCA 1700 ybp). Downstream clades of R-Y2912 belong to people who have paternal ancestors from Poland (Silesia, Kashubia, East Prussia) and Germany (Baden-Württemberg, Saxony).

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2912/

Upstream clade R-YP263* (formed 2000 ybp, TMRCA 1800 ybp) was found in Gotland, Holstein and Circassia.

Maybe first waves of R-L1029 arrived to the Balkans and Sardinia along with East Germanic or/and Sarmatian tribes. "The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways."

lgmayka, thank you for your email.

Larry wrote:
Below are your numerically nearest neighbors, at 111 and 67 markers, in the R1a and Polish projects. Perhaps your best chances to form a new subclade would be the men below who have tested YP263+:
https://s17.postimg.org/afg8apj5r/Screen_Hunter_2129_Jan._08_09.04.jpg
https://s17.postimg.org/n6ueh80nj/Screen_Hunter_2130_Jan._08_09.05.jpg

https://s17.postimg.org/hio3q8gun/Screen_Hunter_2128_Jan._08_08.57.jpg

Dibran
01-08-2018, 09:48 AM
I'm surprised. I thought that FTDNA was not going to restart BAM file generation until the hg38 conversion was complete--which it is most definitely not.

Oh I tested with FGC nt FTDNA maybe thats why.

Here is my preliminary placement. Sample is now up. full analysis in process.

https://s14.postimg.org/rcvj3560h/image.jpg

01-08-2018, 10:08 AM
Oh I tested with FGC nt FTDNA maybe thats why.

Here is my preliminary placement. Sample is now up. full analysis in process.

https://s14.postimg.org/rcvj3560h/image.jpg

Hi all, yeah just to add and confirm also, that, I requested also a BAM from ftdna, from my Big Y result, as im eager to upload it to Yfull.
ftdna have acknowledged my email about the BAM file, and said they would email me once it was available, so im still waiting.... could be a while :)


Also to Dibran,
Congratulations on your placement into that clade, I suppose things are shaping up for you know..

Dibran
01-08-2018, 01:06 PM
Hi all, yeah just to add and confirm also, that, I requested also a BAM from ftdna, from my Big Y result, as im eager to upload it to Yfull.
ftdna have acknowledged my email about the BAM file, and said they would email me once it was available, so im still waiting.... could be a while :)


Also to Dibran,
Congratulations on your placement into that clade, I suppose things are shaping up for you know..

Yea,

Its pretty interesting. Still kind of know as much as I did before testing given the unique situation, so I suppose I will have to wait and see what becomes of it with the upcoming Yfull update, and whether or not I form a cluster with any existing samples.

Michal should be posting his interpretation soon. Yfull assessment seemed to line up with Albanian Bloodlines admin predictions.

Michał
01-08-2018, 02:09 PM
So I am predicted to fall under L1029*.
[...]
I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029. If the TMRCA is 2000ypb. How could it have arrived in Albania?

I have just taken a closer look at your Y Elite report. As you wrote, you are indeed positive for L1029 (and for all known equivalent SNPs) while being most likely negative for all previously known subclade-defining SNPs under L1029. It should be noted that we currently know 12 different ("independent") subclades "just under L1029", but, actually, the situation is much more complicated, as 8 of those 12 subclades seem to be specifically related to each other, as they all fall under a new large subclade FGC66323 that has recently been recognized by FTDNA. Unfortunately, this SNP gives relatively unreliable results, as it is located in a repeated region, which means there are several similar sequences present in the genome, and it is not easy to distinguish them from each other. This is why YFull did not include FGC66323 in their Y-DNA tree, while YSEQ refuses to test for this SNP. In our R1a FTDNA project, we have not decided yet whether we should use this SNP in our classification system. Anyway, those 8 subclades under FGC66323 are YP416, YP593, YP1703, YP4647, YP6045, YP6048, Y34164 and FGC33625, while YP263, YP417, YP444 and BY30715 seem to be negative for FGC66323. All this means that there are only 5 known subclades directly under L1029 and these are FGC66323, YP263, YP417, YP444 and BY30715. Importantly, some people previously reported as L1029* turned out to be L1029>FGC66323*, so only kits N68980 (of unknown origin) and 343920 (from Germany/Prussia) remain classified as L1029* or L1029(xFGC66323,YP263,YP417,YP444,BY30715).

FGC66323 is not listed in your Y Elite report, so we can assume you are negative for this SNP, which would make your patrilineage a novel (third) L1029* lineage if not the fact that one of your so-called private SNPs (namely FGC72553, 22459578 C>G) seems to be also present in a very specific sugroup of all L1029 lineages that includes only people who are YP263+. As with FGC66323, the situation with FGC72553 is actually quite complicated. FGC72553 is a part of the so-called DYZ19 repeated region, which means the sequence encompassing mutation FGC72553 is very similar to some other sequences, and they are all very difficult to distinguish form each other, ie. it is hard to establish whether a given read from an NGS test represents a sequence encompassing FGC72553 or this is rather one of those very similar sequences. This is why FGC72553 is never (or rarely) seen in all reads reported for a given locus (just like it is the case for the above-mentioned mutation FGC66323). Instead, it is only a majority of reads that show G (instead of C) in this particular locus for people reported as FGC72553+. Nevertheless, it should be mentioned that while all L1029xYP263 lineages from the YFull database are reported as showing the ancestral allele C in this position, the situation is very different for subclade YP263 where among 10 lineages there are two reported as G, seven reported as S (which means G or C) and only one is reported as C. Intriguingly, the latter one is user Waldemar who is classified as L1029>YP263>Y2912*.

It is hard to interpret the above results, but I would say that the most likely interpretation is that FGC72553 is downstream of L1029 but upstream of YP263, while Waldemar represents either a back mutation or a deletion of a repeated sequence containing FGC72553 (so only the remaining similar sequences are read in his case). The latter is consistent with the fact that the number of reads in Waldemar (85) is significantly smaller than the corresponding numbers for all remaining BigY-tested YP263 lineages (showing 130-250 reads for this locus/loci). It should also be noted that all repeated sequences are prone to deletions/insertions, and this is actually why STRs show so much instability when compared to non-repeated regions. If this interpretation is correct, this would mean that your Albanian lineage is L1029>FGC27553* and thus represents an unknown subclade under L1029 that is parallel to YP263 (so you belong to a yet unnamed sister clade of YP263). At this point, it should be noted that YP263 seems to be one of the most common L1029 subclades in East Balkans (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=311592&viewfull=1#post311592).

Finally, I should also mention that I have recently realized that the Sardinian sample ERS256947 (or a research sample #967 from Francalacci et al., 2015) shown on the L1029 YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/) is in fact YP1703+, so it belongs to a subclade that has previously been found in Caucasus/Circassia, Ukraine, Hungary, Czech Republic, Denmark, Sweden and Estonia. I have asked the YFull team to verify this finding and change the YFull tree accordingly.

Dibran
01-08-2018, 02:36 PM
I have just taken a closer look at your Y Elite report. As you wrote, you are indeed positive for L1029 (and for all known equivalent SNPs) while being most likely negative for all previously known subclade-defining SNPs under L1029. It should be noted that we currently know 12 different ("independent") subclades "just under L1029", but, actually, the situation is much more complicated, as 8 of those 12 subclades seem to be specifically related to each other, as they all fall under a new large subclade FGC66323 that has recently been recognized by FTDNA. Unfortunately, this SNP gives relatively unreliable results, as it is located in a repeated region, which means there are several similar sequences present in the genome, and it is not easy to distinguish them from each other. This is why YFull did not include FGC66323 in their Y-DNA tree, while YSEQ refuses to test for this SNP. In our R1a FTDNA project, we have not decided yet whether we should use this SNP in our classification system. Anyway, those 8 subclades under FGC66323 are YP416, YP593, YP1703, YP4647, YP6045, YP6048, Y34164 and FGC33625, while YP263, YP417, YP444 and BY30715 seem to be negative for FGC66323. All this means that there are only 5 known subclades directly under L1029 and these are FGC66323, YP263, YP417, YP444 and BY30715. Importantly, some people previously reported as L1029* turned out to be L1029>FGC66323*, so only kits N68980 (of unknown origin) and 343920 (from Germany/Prussia) remain classified as L1029* or L1029(xFGC66323,YP263,YP417,YP444,BY30715).

FGC66323 is not listed in your Y Elite report, so we can assume you are negative for this SNP, which would make your patrilineage a novel (third) L1029* lineage if not the fact that one of your so-called private SNPs (namely FGC72553, 22459578 C>G) seems to be also present in a very specific sugroup of all L1029 lineages that includes only people who are YP263+. As with FGC66323, the situation with FGC72553 is actually quite complicated. FGC72553 is a part of the so-called DYZ19 repeated region, which means the sequence encompassing mutation FGC72553 is very similar to some other sequences, and they are all very difficult to distinguish form each other, ie. it is hard to establish whether a given read from an NGS test represents a sequence encompassing FGC72553 or this is rather one of those very similar sequences. This is why FGC72553 is never (or rarely) seen in all reads reported for a given locus (just like it is the case for the above-mentioned mutation FGC66323). Instead, it is only a majority of reads that show G (instead of C) in this particular locus for people reported as FGC72553+. Nevertheless, it should be mentioned that while all L1029xYP263 lineages from the YFull database are reported as showing the ancestral allele C in this position, the situation is very different for subclade YP263 where among 10 lineages there are two reported as G, seven reported as S (which means G or C) and only one is reported as C. Intriguingly, the latter one is user Waldemar who is classified as L1029>YP263>Y2912*.

It is hard to interpret the above results, but I would say that the most likely interpretation is that FGC72553 is downstream of L1029 but upstream of YP263, while Waldemar represents either a back mutation or a deletion of a repeated sequence containing FGC72553 (so only the remaining similar sequences are read in his case). The latter is consistent with the fact that the number of reads in Waldemar (85) is significantly smaller than the corresponding numbers for all remaining BigY-tested YP263 lineages (showing 130-250 reads for this locus/loci). It should also be noted that all repeated sequences are prone to deletions/insertions, and this is actually why STRs show so much instability when compared to non-repeated regions. If this interpretation is correct, this would mean that your Albanian lineage is L1029>FGC27553* and thus represents an unknown subclade under L1029 that is parallel to YP263 (so you belong to a yet unnamed sister clade of YP263). At this point, it should be noted that YP263 seems to be one of the most common L1029 subclades in East Balkans (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=311592&viewfull=1#post311592).

Finally, I should also mention that I have recently realized that the Sardinian sample ERS256947 (or a research sample #967 from Francalacci et al., 2015) shown on the L1029 YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/) is in fact YP1703+, so it belongs to a subclade that has previously been found in Caucasus/Circassia, Ukraine, Hungary, Czech Republic, Denmark, Sweden and Estonia. I have asked the YFull team to verify this finding and change the YFull tree accordingly.


Funny you say that. AncestryDNA morely predicted I was YP263. Perhaps it confused this "sister clade" I may belong to. Will this Yfull update provide initial TMRCAs for my specified cluster? Or would I need people who are part of my yet unknown clade to see TMRCA? I noticed YP263 is pretty widespread in northern europe from Scandinavia to the Balts and Russia, even a few in England. Possible Varangians? I know they were hired from Russia and even the Balts as well. Some of this lineage or sister clade could entered in this way.

Michał
01-08-2018, 03:03 PM
Funny you say that. AncestryDNA morely predicted I was YP263. Perhaps it confused this "sister clade" I may belong to. Will this Yfull update provide initial TMRCAs for my specified cluster? I noticed YP263 is pretty widespread in northern europe from Scandinavia to the Balts and Russia.
I suspect YFull won't recognize this novel hypothetical clade FGC72553 above YP263 (because FGC72553 gives inconsistent results), so you will probably be classified as L1029* (not FGC72553*). As for the TMRCA age for FGC72553, this clade should be a bit younger than L1029 and a bit older than YP263, which makes about 2000-1800 years according to YFull (or 2350-2100 when assuming that YFull underestimates by about 15%). I have once suggested that each reliable YElite-tested SNP corresponds to about 81-91 years, so since you show 25 SNPs under FGC72553 this should correspond to about 2000-2300 years to your most recent common ancestor with the members of clade YP263, but please keep in mind that these are all very rough estimates.

It would be very interesting to know how many of those 25 private SNPs are shared by your relatively close Albanian STR match. It is a pity that we have so few NGS results for the Balkans.

Dibran
01-08-2018, 03:12 PM
I suspect YFull won't recognize this novel hypothetical clade FGC72553 above YP263 (because FGC72553 gives inconsistent results), so you will probably be classified as L1029* (not FGC72553*). As for the TMRCA age for FGC72553, this clade should be a bit younger than L1029 and a bit older than YP263, which makes about 2000-1800 years according to YFull (or 2350-2100 when assuming that YFull underestimates by about 15%). I have once suggested that each reliable YElite-tested SNP corresponds to about 81-91 years, so since you show 25 SNPs under FGC72553 this should correspond to about 2000-2300 years to your most recent common ancestor with the members of clade YP263, but please keep in mind that these are all very rough estimates.

It would be very interesting to know how many of those 25 private SNPs are shared by your relatively close Albanian STR match. It is a pity that we have so few NGS results for the Balkans.

Very interesting. that 2350 TMRCA was what I shared with the closest FGC matches I had. Perhaps this is the same thing, given we share one of the 26 private SNPs(per my understanding with FGC). I suspect, assuming a TMRCA between us of 1000ypb and using your deduction method, maybe we share 10-15 of those SNPs. Is there anyway we can reach out to the Yseq match and try and test him further?

Given I seem to notice alot of YP263 in England and Scandinavia, would this be from assimilated Slavs into Viking factions that raided in England? I do find it interesting that its distribution kind of mirrors the Varangians, and since they were more situated in the East Balkans, that is another possible avenue. But, if my mutation is further upstream, maybe story is not the same. So the mutations is basically slightly younger than L1029* and slightly older than YP263, so basically a mid way point. Many Varangians were Slavs themselves from Rus. So it could have entered this way, and fell off between shifting borders during the collapse of of Byzantium.

Trojet
01-08-2018, 03:15 PM
It would be very interesting to know how many of those 25 private SNPs are shared by your relatively close Albanian STR match. It is a pity that we have so few NGS results for the Balkans.

Yeah, I would be interested in this also. It may give us a rough idea for how long this lineage has been in the area of Albania/Macedonia.

The other Albanian is tested at YSEQ. I suppose Dibran can request his Novels at YSEQ and have him test them to see how many he shares. However, this would cost $18 per SNP, so 25 x $18 = $450, which is roughly the price of the BigY when on sale, and I have a feeling the other guy will not be interested. (I do have his email, BTW).

Dibran
01-08-2018, 03:35 PM
Yeah, I would be interested in this also. It may give us a rough idea for how long this lineage has been in the area of Albania/Macedonia.

The other Albanian is tested at YSEQ. I suppose Dibran can request his Novels at YSEQ and have him test them to see how many he shares. However, this would cost $18 per SNP, so 25 x $18 = $450, which is roughly the price of the BigY when on sale, and I have a feeling the other guy will not be interested. (I do have his email, BTW).

If his lack of interest is monetary related, I can gradually donate to test each SNP slowly at a time. Any donations towards that end from others would be appreciated. However, Idk how to do this or how to go about it. So, any help in the process would be great.

Pribislav
01-08-2018, 03:51 PM
The point I am making is with a lack of downstream SNPs, theres no certainty it only arrived with Slavs. I think people are being a little closed minded here. Ignoring numerous scenarios with the movements of tribes and peoples throughout central and eastern europe. To say L1029 was only brought to the Balkans by Slavic speakers is to adopt a level of certainty absent any scientific fact. Is all J2b Albanian? Is all E-V13 Albanian? No, of course not.

It is a well known fact East Germanic tribes, and even Dacians occupied eastern Europe and even spread up to the Balts. Whether it was originally Balto-Slavic is besides the point. There is no certainty the early ancestor to carry it was a Slavic speaker. Assuming any and all L1029 only came in the great migration with Slavs is a little ignorant.

I don't share any downstream SNPs associated with the time frame of the migration period. Many people seem to ignore insurmountable factors that are at play, for an easy clean cut explanation.

Theres as much certainty my line came with a East Germanic tribe as there is with it coming with a Slavic tribe. The science is still to early to make concrete conclusions. Using modern socio-cultural constructs and borders, to define the lineages and their sporadic movements of the past, is part of the problem.

Dibran, there's a hundred possible scenarios how your clade could've come to the Balkans, but it's not about whether those scenarios are possible or not, it's about the odds, and by our current knowledge odds will always be in favour of Slavic expansion for every L1029 subclade. It's as if someone suggested some I1 subclade came to Britain not with Anglo-Saxons but with Celts. Is it possible? Sure. Probable? Not so much. So we could try to think up other possible scenarios all day, but the fact is the only way scenarios you mentioned could gain any ground is your subclade being found in the pre-Slavic context in the Balkans, and I honestly don't see that happening any time soon. I really don't understand what's all the fuss about, having a Slavic paternal ancestor 1500 years ago isn't the worst thing in the world, and it certainly doesn't make you any less Albanian than Albanians belonging to R1b or J2b2.


Captain obvious.

Major dink(us).

Michał
01-08-2018, 03:53 PM
Very interesting. that 2350 TMRCA was what I shared with the closest FGC matches I had. Perhaps this is the same thing, given we share one of the 26 private SNPs(per my understanding with FGC).

When excluding FGC72553, you have only 25 private SNPs of good quality among those reported by FGC. As far as I know, your closest SNP match among people tested at FGC is the only member of clade YP263 who took the Y Elite test so far. He is kit 208920 (and YFull sample YF01381) from Germany, thus classified as L1029>(FGC72553)>YP263>Y2912>Y2921>Y2914*.


I suspect, assuming a TMRCA between us of 1000ypb and using your deduction method, maybe we share 10-15 of those SNPs. Is there anyway we can reach out to the Yseq match and try and test him further?

As already explained by Trojet, it is possible to test him for your private SNPs at YSEQ, but this will be nearly as much expensive as ordering the Big Y test. You also need to keep in mind that some of those private SNPs may turn out to be not appropriate for Sanger sequencing (at least according to YSEQ). On the other hand, you should be aware that 7 of your 25 private SNPs won't be covered by Big Y (as they are in regions not tested by Big Y).


Given I seem to notice alot of YP263 in England and Scandinavia, would this be from assimilated Slavs into Viking factions that raided in England? I do find it interesting that its distribution kind of mirrors the Varangians, and since they were more situated in the East Balkans, that is another possible avenue. But, if my mutation is further upstream, maybe story is not the same. So the mutations is basically slightly younger than L1029* and slightly older than YP263, so basically a mid way point. Many Varangians were Slavs themselves from Rus. So it could have entered this way, and fell off between shifting borders during the collapse of of Byzantium.
YP263 seems to be much less frequent in England and Scandinavia than in the Balkans (or in Poland and Belarus). You need to remember that people from England and Scandinavia are strongly overrepresented among the FTDNA customers, so this gives an illusion that practically all subclades are relatively frequent there. Therefore, in each such case you need to adjust for undertested populations (as explained in a previous discussion to which I have already given a link: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=311592&viewfull=1#post311592).

I definitely agree with Trojet and Pribislav that while many alternative scenarios are still possible, it is the Slavic migration to the Balkans that seems to be the most likely source of your patrilineage in the light of all available data.

Dibran
01-08-2018, 04:07 PM
Dibran, there's a hundred possible scenarios how your clade could've come to the Balkans, but it's not about whether those scenarios are possible or not, it's about the odds, and by our current knowledge odds will always be in favour of Slavic expansion for every L1029 subclade. It's as if someone suggested some I1 subclade came to Britain not with Anglo-Saxons but with Celts. Is it possible? Sure. Probable? Not so much. So we could try to think up other possible scenarios all day, but the fact is the only way scenarios you mentioned could gain any ground is your subclade being found in the pre-Slavic context in the Balkans, and I honestly don't see that happening any time soon. I really don't understand what's all the fuss about, having a Slavic paternal ancestor 1500 years ago isn't the worst thing in the world, and it doesn't make you any less Albanian than Albanians belonging to R1b or J2b2.



Major dink(us).

Until there is concrete data, and testing is commonplace, any hypothesis is possible. I don't like adopting a position of certainty based on modern socio-cultural classifications and borders is all. I also think I made it evidently clear in practically every post that its NE derived and acknowledged it could be Slavic derived. There is no definite the ancestor who entered the Balkans spoke Slavic is all. Absent hard science and larger studies with bigger samples for tested and even under-tested regions, then all speculation is still speculation at this point.

Trojet
01-08-2018, 04:08 PM
If his lack of interest is monetary related, I can gradually donate to test each SNP slowly at a time. Any donations towards that end from others would be appreciated. However, Idk how to do this or how to go about it. So, any help in the process would be great.

I would say wait and see how the part of the tree you belong to develops in the future. By taking the Y-Elite, you have defined your own paternal line, it's just a matter of waiting for others to test. And you roughly have a pretty good idea when it may have arrived to Albania.

TBH, 80% of Albanians are just unresponsive if we ask them about further testing, and very few actually follow through even if someone is willing to pay for their test, so it can be a very frustrating process. At least you know you can explore this option in the future. I can PM you his email if you'd like to.

Dibran
01-08-2018, 04:34 PM
I would say wait and see how the part of the tree you belong to develops in the future. By taking the Y-Elite, you have defined your own paternal line, it's just a matter of waiting for others to test. And you roughly have a pretty good idea when it may have arrived to Albania.

TBH, 80% of Albanians are just unresponsive if we ask them about further testing, and very few actually follow through even if someone is willing to pay for their test, so it can be a very frustrating process. At least you know you can explore this option in the future. I can PM you his email if you'd like to.

Definitely. If you could email me that would be great. I imagine if NGS really gets as cheap as 100 dollars in the coming years that the science will develop rapidly, fitting more puzzle pieces together.

I may still be emailing you to see how to go about this lol. But, yes, even if its just one major SNP that he tests positive, it would still define a cluster for us right? Or would every single of the 25 SNPs need testing to ascertain how we cluster?

Trojet
01-08-2018, 04:49 PM
Definitely. If you could email me that would be great. I imagine if NGS really gets as cheap as 100 dollars in the coming years that the science will develop rapidly, fitting more puzzle pieces together.

I may still be emailing you to see how to go about this lol. But, yes, even if its just one major SNP that he tests positive, it would still define a cluster for us right? Or would every single of the 25 SNPs need testing to ascertain how we cluster?

Definitely. NGS is projected to drop significantly in price in the not too distant future.

I would first test him for L1029 at YSEQ, to make sure that's where his belong, and his STRs are not some convergence from the sibling clade YP515. You may then try to test him for one of your Novels, but you may not learn anything new. Assuming the TMRCA between you is 1000-1500 ybp, he should share roughly 10 of 25 of your Novels. So there is no way to know which ones he would share, without testing them all. The only one you may test him for, may turn out to be negative. Ideally, you'd want to test him for all 25, or however many of them can be tested by Sanger Sequencing at YSEQ.

Dibran
01-08-2018, 04:53 PM
Definitely. NGS is projected to drop significantly in price in the not too distant future.

I would first test him for L1029 at YSEQ, to make sure that's where his belong, and his STRs are not some convergence from the sibling clade YP515. You may then try to test him for one of your Novels, but you may not learn anything new. Assuming the TMRCA between you is 1000-1500 ybp, he should share roughly 10 of 25 of your Novels. So there is no way to know which ones he would share, without testing them all. The only one you may test him for, may turn out to be negative. Ideally, you'd want to test him for all 25, or however many of them can be tested by Sanger Sequencing at YSEQ.

I see. I suppose if he agrees, I will follow yours and Michals instruction, with regards to what I should test first. Is it pretty cheap for L1029 on Yseq? Same as SNP costs? Perhaps hes L1029 and we luck out with an SNP. At least just to establish relationship in a cluster. Then assuming all goes well, I can test other SNPs gradually to add more clarity to our TMRCA. If he agrees, send me his email and I guess we'll go from there.

Trojet
01-08-2018, 04:57 PM
I see. I suppose if he agrees, I will follow yours and Michals instruction, with regards to what I should test first. Is it pretty cheap for L1029 on Yseq? Same as SNP costs? Perhaps hes L1029 and we luck out with an SNP. At least just to establish relationship in a cluster. Then assuming all goes well, I can test other SNPs gradually to add more clarity to our TMRCA. If he agrees, send me his email and I guess we'll go from there.

Yes, all single SNPs at YSEQ are $18, including L1029: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=2054

Dibran
01-08-2018, 05:02 PM
Yes, all single SNPs at YSEQ are $18, including L1029: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=2054

Great. Let me know if he agrees, and then send his email at your convenience. Either my gmail or inbox here. Whatever works. Best.

Trojet
01-08-2018, 05:04 PM
Great. Let me know if he agrees, and then send his email at your convenience. Either my gmail or inbox here. Whatever works. Best.

Ok, I'll email him and will let know if I get an answer..

Dibran
01-08-2018, 05:17 PM
Ok, I'll email him and will let know if I get an answer..

Also, you can tell him I will cover the costs for L1029. If hes positive, we'll go gradually from there. Thank you, Trojet.

Dibran
01-08-2018, 06:52 PM
....................


..................

So FGC got back to me with regards to my 2 closest matches(TMRCA 2350ypb). They are both from Germany by origin. I wonder if its the existing Yfull samples that are the same FGC matches. Also a 3rd closest match(not much further than the other 2), and he is from Russia.

Brent.B
01-09-2018, 03:55 AM
I have just taken a closer look at your Y Elite report. As you wrote, you are indeed positive for L1029 (and for all known equivalent SNPs) while being most likely negative for all previously known subclade-defining SNPs under L1029. It should be noted that we currently know 12 different ("independent") subclades "just under L1029", but, actually, the situation is much more complicated, as 8 of those 12 subclades seem to be specifically related to each other, as they all fall under a new large subclade FGC66323 that has recently been recognized by FTDNA. Unfortunately, this SNP gives relatively unreliable results, as it is located in a repeated region, which means there are several similar sequences present in the genome, and it is not easy to distinguish them from each other. This is why YFull did not include FGC66323 in their Y-DNA tree, while YSEQ refuses to test for this SNP. In our R1a FTDNA project, we have not decided yet whether we should use this SNP in our classification system. Anyway, those 8 subclades under FGC66323 are YP416, YP593, YP1703, YP4647, YP6045, YP6048, Y34164 and FGC33625, while YP263, YP417, YP444 and BY30715 seem to be negative for FGC66323. All this means that there are only 5 known subclades directly under L1029 and these are FGC66323, YP263, YP417, YP444 and BY30715. Importantly, some people previously reported as L1029* turned out to be L1029>FGC66323*, so only kits N68980 (of unknown origin) and 343920 (from Germany/Prussia) remain classified as L1029* or L1029(xFGC66323,YP263,YP417,YP444,BY30715).


FGC66323 Appears to be pretty 'western'. Seems like a relatively high number of Germans/scandinavians samples considering we are talking about L1029... same with YP263

I also noticed a few of the L1029* members listed in the project now show FGC66323 as their Haplogroup. I'm guessing they will be reclassified?

And do we know the TMRCA for this haplogroup? Very exciting stuff!!

Dibran
01-10-2018, 11:05 PM
FGC66323 Appears to be pretty 'western'. Seems like a relatively high number of Germans/scandinavians samples considering we are talking about L1029... same with YP263

I also noticed a few of the L1029* members listed in the project now show FGC66323 as their Haplogroup. I'm guessing they will be reclassified?

And do we know the TMRCA for this haplogroup? Very exciting stuff!!

I think Michal mentioned the samples are actually more eastern, just Yfull doesnt list it from every country. If thats true I suppose its more eastern. However, it does appear more northern and slightly western. North central etc. I am of the opinion of Marija Gimbutas, that it is of Baltic origin.

Dibran
01-18-2018, 04:02 PM
....................


.........................

Heres an update.

I went through all my 23andme matches, I divided them using the tool to split paternal and maternal relatives.

Of all the paternal relatives, there were 20 or so whom were all confirmed M417 through the Paternal line.

Of course this is not a guarantee that they are the same clade as me.

A majority of them were Greeks by the look of it. A lot of anonymous(a couple listed they were from Albania), and one other Albanian(cant list surname)

A couple from Romania and one from Moldova.

I established communication with one paternal match who is M417 from Rotondella, Southern Italy. His ancestors only know as far back as 1700 and not much before beside oral history.

So the M417 southern Italian from Rotondella agreed to have me test him. I plan to place the order for YSEQ super clade next weekend. This way if he turns out to not be a match, at least he will learn his placement for the extra 11 dollars, and contribute more to the R1a project in general.

Before I do so, I wanted to know if any form of written consent is needed, if I need to speak to YSEQ first, or is a verbal agreement sufficient?

If all I need to do is order the kit and have it shipped to him then it shouldn't be an issue. Just want to be sure.

-Best

Dibran
02-06-2018, 12:51 AM
Finally got my Yfull matches. I blacked out the names, but it seems(despite them all being distant), I share the most SNPs with the sample from Italy, and then further down further distance.

https://s14.postimg.org/nrjt5hxg1/yfullmatches1.jpg

https://s14.postimg.org/rb5qvc2qp/yfullmatches2.jpg

Dibran
02-06-2018, 03:08 PM
.................................................. .........


..................

I assume you're the Beijing sample. You're in my close matches!


................................

Ok, so they finally posted my STR matches. so I only have 12 close matches. Though, I am not sure how close. If any of you can determine that based on the data in the chart that would be great. Otherwise I can always email the data. I also have 500 distant STR matches. If you guys think its relevant to post I can do so. Blotting out the names will take time though. My closest matches are Finland oddly enough lol. Then again Idk how far back the TMRCA is between us.

Surprised the Finland samples are my closest STR matches. The above post i commented before has SNP matches, with me sharing the most SNPs with the Italian L1029 sample.

https://s10.postimg.org/ic1s3n7d5/strmatchesclose.jpg

Dibran
02-06-2018, 04:58 PM
Ofcourse. All my Close matches are now gone. Now Yfull says I have only one close match(the China sample). Any reason why that is?

Trojet
02-19-2018, 04:30 PM
The Albanian from Gostivar had apparently ordered the R1a-M458 SNP Panel from YSEQ.

The STR prediction of you and him likely forming an "Albanian" sub-branch below L1029 was correct, since he is confirmed L1029+ and negative for all its sub-branches, ie L1029* like you. You two are matching 30/37 with a couple of differences being on slower mutating markers. And considering TMRCA of L1029 at ~2000 ybp, IMO, this distance between you two corresponds to roughly 1000-1600 ybp. Since he comes from the same geographical area, most likely your line has been in the region for a while (last 1000-1600 years).

Dibran
02-19-2018, 05:07 PM
The Albanian from Gostivar had apparently ordered the R1a-M458 SNP Panel from YSEQ.

The STR prediction of you and him likely forming an "Albanian" sub-branch below L1029 was correct, since he is confirmed L1029+ and negative for all its sub-branches, ie L1029* like you. You two are matching 30/37 with a couple of differences being on slower mutating markers. And considering TMRCA of L1029 at ~2000 ybp, IMO, this distance between you two corresponds to roughly 1000-1600 ybp. Since he comes from the same geographical area, most likely your line has been in the region for a while (last 1000-1600 years).

Oh wow,

Very interesting. So our MRCA could have been even further back than 1000ypb? Very cool. Thank you for keeping me posted!

I plan to test my father with BigY when the next sale comes. Is there any where to check for when sale periods begin so I don't miss it? This way when I upload him to Yfull we can get the cluster forming on the tree.

Best

geebee
02-25-2018, 11:01 PM
When I got my Big Y results back a week or so ago, I took a quick look at it and as far as I could tell my subclade was unchanged -- still just R-L1029. What I hadn't noticed -- and one of the admins of the R1a Project just pointed out to me -- is that while I tested as YP444-, I also tested as YP619+. [not YP615, as I'd originally written]

So I apparently split the clade. Which is fine by me, as long as they don't try to make me pay for it. ;)

EDIT: At FTDNA, I have no matches at above 37 markers, but I do have a single 35/37 match. It's to an individual with a close variant of the same Americanized German surname as mine. His GEDCOM leads back to the ancestors with exactly the same variant of the name that I have -- and in fact to the probable brother of my 3rd great grandfather. Their father, then, would be our most recent common ancestor; and it was that man's father who brought the surname to America. In its German form, of course.

Back when Ancestry was still doing YDNA testing -- or at least, still gave access to the results -- I discovered another cousin who was an exact 46/46 match. This was on a slightly different set of markers, of course, and not just additional markers. We even had the same three copies of a usually two-copy marker, DYS459: 9, 10, 10.

lgmayka
02-25-2018, 11:09 PM
while I tested as YP444-, I also tested as YP615+.
Actually YP619. See YFull's R-YP444 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP444/). I have asked FTDNA to split the level.

geebee
02-25-2018, 11:34 PM
Actually YP619. See YFull's R-YP444 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP444/). I have asked FTDNA to split the level.

Yep, a typo on my part, which I've now corrected. Thanks.

Waldemar
02-27-2018, 11:42 AM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

I've noticed that your sample has been reclassified as L1029>(FGC72553)* under FTDNA project, so afaik we currently have 4 samples of R-L1029* (3 from East Germany/Poland and 1 from Sardinia) and a bunch of samples not fully tested.

https://s13.postimg.org/whco0sevr/Screen_Hunter_2242_Feb._27_11.41.jpg

I suspect that one of those East German/Polish samples is currently being tested by YFull (YF12567).

https://s13.postimg.org/yjhqsk4qv/Screen_Hunter_2244_Feb._27_12.19.jpg

https://s13.postimg.org/581alwnyv/Screen_Hunter_2243_Feb._27_11.44.jpg

Dibran
02-27-2018, 01:10 PM
I've noticed that your sample has been reclassified as L1029>(FGC72553)* under FTDNA project, so afaik we currently have 4 samples of R-L1029* (3 from East Germany/Poland and 1 from Sardinia) and a bunch of samples not fully tested.

https://s13.postimg.org/whco0sevr/Screen_Hunter_2242_Feb._27_11.41.jpg

I suspect that one of those East German/Polish samples is currently being tested by YFull (YF12567).

https://s13.postimg.org/yjhqsk4qv/Screen_Hunter_2244_Feb._27_12.19.jpg

https://s13.postimg.org/581alwnyv/Screen_Hunter_2243_Feb._27_11.44.jpg

Yes, I think its because recently my Albanian match was confirmed to form an Albanian sub branch with me and they suspected it was upstream YP263 but downstream L1029. Perhaps Michal updated it based on that. Though, I have emailed him a few times with no response, so I am not sure if he knows about my match being confirmed.

Dibran
02-27-2018, 01:32 PM
I've noticed that your sample has been reclassified as L1029>(FGC72553)* under FTDNA project, so afaik we currently have 4 samples of R-L1029* (3 from East Germany/Poland and 1 from Sardinia) and a bunch of samples not fully tested.

https://s13.postimg.org/whco0sevr/Screen_Hunter_2242_Feb._27_11.41.jpg

I suspect that one of those East German/Polish samples is currently being tested by YFull (YF12567).

https://s13.postimg.org/yjhqsk4qv/Screen_Hunter_2244_Feb._27_12.19.jpg

https://s13.postimg.org/581alwnyv/Screen_Hunter_2243_Feb._27_11.44.jpg

Michals reply in an alternate thread per that SNP:

"It should also be noted that all repeated sequences are prone to deletions/insertions, and this is actually why STRs show so much instability when compared to non-repeated regions. If this interpretation is correct, this would mean that your Albanian lineage is L1029>FGC27553* and thus represents an unknown subclade under L1029 that is parallel to YP263 (so you belong to a yet unnamed sister clade of YP263). At this point, it should be noted that YP263 seems to be one of the most common L1029 subclades in East Balkans (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post311592).

Finally, I should also mention that I have recently realized that the Sardinian sample ERS256947 (or a research sample #967 from Francalacci et al., 2015) shown on the L1029 YFull tree (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/) is in fact YP1703+, so it belongs to a subclade that has previously been found in Caucasus/Circassia, Ukraine, Hungary, Czech Republic, Denmark, Sweden and Estonia. I have asked the YFull team to verify this finding and change the YFull tree accordingly."

Dibran
02-27-2018, 07:31 PM
New L1029 sample on Yfull. No country of origin listed. Seems to be my closest SNP match. far TMRCA though.

geebee
02-28-2018, 05:52 AM
New L1029 sample on Yfull. No country of origin listed. Seems to be my closest SNP match. far TMRCA though.

Actually, I'm YF12567. Interestingly, as lgmayka pointed out to me I'm YP619+ but YP444-. But these are currently shown as being on the same level. Apparently, they should not be.

As to country of origin, that's a trickier question. The surname was brought to America by my ancestor Johan Buchhammer in 1749. I know that the ship's manifest identified all of the passengers as being "from the Palatinate", but I can't pinpoint his origin any more precisely.

Today the highest worldwide frequency of the name is in Austria, at just 19.44 per million; and within Austria, the location with the highest frequency is Landeck, at 130.15 per million. I understand that the "-hammer" ending (as opposed to "-heimer") is suggestive that the name was formed or fixed in an Austro-Bavarian dialect.

Once in America, the name morphed into "Bookhammer" and some similar forms. "Bookhammer" shows the highest worldwide frequency in the U.S., at just 0.47 per million. This makes sense, because this form of the name is only a little over 200 years old. As far as I can tell, it may have first originated at the very beginning of the 1800s.

The state with the highest frequency of "Bookhammer" is Delaware (9.11 fpm), which actually had a lieutenant governor named Eugene Bookhammer. It turns out that Eugene and I are 4th cousins twice removed, and that our most recent common ancestor is none other than Johan Buchhammer. A few years ago I learned that Eugene and I matched at Ancestry on 46 Y-STR markers with a GD of 0.

I also match a "Bookheimer" at FTDNA on 37 markers, but with a GD of 2. Interestingly, my most recent common ancestor with this person is actually a generation closer than Johan, since it's one of his sons. I presume that one of these 37 markers is likely different from any of Ancestry's 46 markers.

(Ancestry no longer offers a Y-STR test, but it was one of the first DNA tests they had.)

As for the earlier form of the name, I've found that there are still persons named Buchhammer in certain parts of Germany and Austria, including some who can are living in the same places in which the name appeared in the 1600s. But for the period before that, I have no clue.

(Surname frequencies as determined by http://worldnames.publicprofiler.org/Default.aspx)

lgmayka
02-28-2018, 10:45 AM
Interestingly, as lgmayka pointed out to me I'm YP619+ but YP444-. But these are currently shown as being on the same level. Apparently, they should not be.
Presumably, the next version of YFull's haplotree will split the YP444 level. You will then be classified as R-YP619*.

Dibran
02-28-2018, 01:38 PM
Presumably, the next version of YFull's haplotree will split the YP444 level. You will then be classified as R-YP619*.

I finally got in touch with YSEQ. I am waiting for response, but the idea is, some of the SNPs are already available for order, some need to be requested via "Wish A SNP". The SNPs available for testing are roughly 13. Some of them are one readings though, so Idk if thats a good idea to test? Anyways, the idea is they send me a paypal invoice and I make payment for the SNPs.

Once I receive this link I assume they will begin testing the available SNPs until the other ones are available. Depending how many of the earlier ones me and my match share, we may not have to test the other SNPs.

I also requested them to make a segregated family SNP pack. This way any future matches can order the complete pack to test for all the available SNPs.

Do you know if Yfull ever plans to allow uploads from YSEQ?

It would be nice to have the visual structure shown of our line on the tree.

lgmayka
02-28-2018, 02:45 PM
Actually, I'm YF12567.
Please consider joining the R1a group/project on YFull's site, so that administrators can see your results. Here is how:
1) Log into your YFull account.
2) On the left side, click on “Groups”.
3) Scroll down to “R1a (nnn)” and click on it.
4) Click on “Join request”.
5) There may be a dropdown list associated with “Sample ID”. If so, choose your ID.
6) In the Comment section, enter your classification (e.g., "R-L1029").
7) Click the agreement checkbox.
8) Click the Send button.

geebee
02-28-2018, 04:53 PM
Please consider joining the R1a group/project on YFull's site, so that administrators can see your results. Here is how:
1) Log into your YFull account.
2) On the left side, click on “Groups”.
3) Scroll down to “R1a (nnn)” and click on it.
4) Click on “Join request”.
5) There may be a dropdown list associated with “Sample ID”. If so, choose your ID.
6) In the Comment section, enter your classification (e.g., "R-L1029").
7) Click the agreement checkbox.
8) Click the Send button.

I'd be happy to, but do I need to wait for my BAM file to become available? I've requested it, but the last I've heard from FTDNA is that "You will receive an email once it becomes available." This was two days ago, and I'm still waiting.

lgmayka
03-01-2018, 04:13 AM
I'd be happy to, but do I need to wait for my BAM file to become available?
No, VCF-only YFull customers can indeed join a group/project.

geebee
03-01-2018, 05:14 AM
No, VCF-only YFull customers can indeed join a group/project.

Thanks. I have joined, but it puzzles me that FTDNA still hasn't sent me an email letting me know the BAM file is ready.

Dibran
03-01-2018, 01:28 PM
......................


.......................

First panel of SNPs(13 total) has testing underway for my match. Second panel will be requested with "Wish A SNP". I suppose this first panel will confirm whether the SNP placement is stable enough or not.

geebee
03-07-2018, 10:16 PM
So I've now at least found out why I haven't gotten a link to my BAM file from FTDNA:


Hello,

Thank you for your email. My apologies for the misinformation you were given previously, we are not currently processing BAM file requests.

After the update to the Big Y test we allow you to browse your BAM file in real time so are not processing requests at this time. We do have plans to make BAM files available to our Big Y customers, this will be sometime in late spring when we will do so. Please open a ticket during that time so we may update you on the BAM file processing.

Thank you for your patience.

They didn't send this in response to my original request, over a week ago, but in response to my follow up request asking what was taking so long. It goes to show that when they say that repeated requests may slow a response, you still need to send repeated requests if you ever expect any response at all.

Dibran
03-10-2018, 02:25 PM
.....


.......


........

Hi Michał,

Here are the results. The novels I had my match tested for at YSEQ. The primers for the last 2 are on order and can take anywhere from 3-6 weeks before I receive results. In the meantime, my match was positive for 4 novel SNPs.

The other 12 or so novels all need primers ordered, so these results could change in the future. Need to Wish a SNP for the other twelve.

However, could we guess what the TMRCA would be assuming positive for only 4 SNPs out of these 13? Or if 4 were positive out of the 24/25 Novels?

Additionally, our founder effect and sub-branch under L1029 should deal with these novels correct?

First batch:

Quick results summary:
A20968 A-
A20974 C-
A20979 A-
Y133350 G-
Y133351 A+
Y133354 processing (primers on order)
Y133361 G+
Y133367 T+

Y133371 C-
Y133377 G-
Y133379 C-
Y133380 A+
Y133386 processing (primers on order)

Best

Dibran
03-12-2018, 05:55 PM
Bumppppp!

Brent.B
03-17-2018, 11:07 PM
kit 571005 is listed as L1029>(FGC66323)>YP4647>YP4971-x in the R1a1a and subclades project, but according to ftDNA's Big-Y match list, kit 571005 is YP4647*.

ftDNA also shows my kit (253025) and kits 413202 and 71694 are YP4657*, while according to the R1a1a and Subclades project, my kit is YP4647* and kits 413202 and 71694 are YP4971*

did something change?

geebee
03-29-2018, 05:22 AM
I notice that currently YFull is listing YP619, which is supposed to be at the same level as YP444, as "private" for me. I guess it's because they can't call it "terminal" for R-YP444 since though I'm positive for YP619, I'm negative for YP444. However, I do appear to also be positive for at least two other SNPs at the same level.

For example, there's FGC33251. In the .csv file, FTDNA shows a question mark for my genotype, but in the Big Y results for this SNP, all my reads show "G" (the reference is "A"). Now, there aren't that many reads, but they are reported as "high quality".

I also have dozens of reads for F4038. These are all "G", where the reference is "A". Unfortunately, these are shown as low quality reads -- though they're at least consistent.

Since I'm positive for YP619 but negative for YP444, I guess there are basically three alternatives. It is private for me and I only "coincidentally" have it; YP619 and YP444 are actually on different levels; or I have a back mutation at YP444 to the ancestral version.

I'd be curious to know what people think.

geebee
04-10-2018, 05:39 PM
As noted in this thread -- ://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13924-YFull%92s-New-Tree-Is-Out-Version-6-02 -- YFull was updated earlier this month, and as expected R-YP444 is being shown as a subclade of R-YP619.

I have at least two other SNPs which are now being reported as being on the same level as YP619 -- F4038 and Y198 (FGC33251), and one which I think is being reported as synonymous with YP619: PF6072. (Assuming that's what <-> means here.)

In addition to that, I have five SNPs that are also under YP619 but are listed as "private". It would be interesting to see whether any of these actually represent another subclade of YP619. In the meantime, however, I'm just R-Yp619*. (And presently all by myself in that category.)

Dibran
06-10-2018, 05:44 PM
So it appears Yfull has adjusted the TMRCA of L1029 given the new sample data. it is now 100 years earlier to 100BC TMRCA 2100ypb.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

JoeyP37
07-21-2018, 04:32 PM
Interesting, geebee, as Morley has me at L1029 and WeGene at YP445, which is downstream of YP444 and YP619. My paternal line originated likely in northern Wurttemberg, brought to the United States by a Joseph Sellers, my male-line great-great-great-grandfather. Until this year, I knew little of my patriline, as my paternal grandfather left the family when my father was a young boy and he and his two brothers were raised by their stepfather (and Nana, of course). So, my male line is me, my father (born Frederick P. Sellers III), Frederick P. Sellers Jr., Frederick P. Sellers Sr., John Sellers, Joseph Sellers, and back to Germany, where my information peters out.

Waldemar
08-08-2018, 08:05 AM
After almost two years of waiting, another R-Y2912 sample has been tested by YFull :) So excited! ;)

https://s8.postimg.cc/t7he1va2t/Screen_Hunter_2464_Aug._08_09.03.jpg

I'm not sure who is it yet, maybe Paulus Jancarczyk from FTDNA's Silesia project?

https://s8.postimg.cc/f11n6n6xh/Screen_Hunter_2466_Aug._08_09.04.jpg

Dibran
08-19-2018, 01:08 AM
............................


...............................


......................................


.........................


..........................

Hi Michal,

So I finally got the complete results from our tested novels. I ordered the best/acceptable quality SNPs per YSEQs recommendation. There are a total of 8 SNPs out of 21 that my Albanian matches are positive for. Assuming a TMRCA of 2000-2100ypb, our founder effect occurred between 760-800AD. Roughly between 1200-1240TMRCA. So I would assume it entered/assimilated into Albanian clans around the time of the first Bulgarian Empire if not earlier.

The question I have is can this information be added to the R1a project to create our specific founder clade in the group. Additionally, how would we go about submitting this data to ISOGG to include the new branch?

At present I have 2 Albanian matches in the cluster. The second of which(theoretically) could have a common ancestor some 200 years earlier but in all likliehood shares the same TMRCA with the first match given 2 unstable STRs of his. Both matches have ancestry from around Diber in Eastern Albania, so likely this cluster has been around here for sometime and as such is identified as "Dibra Cluster" in the Albanian Bloodlines Project. The following are the list of positive SNPs forming our cluster, and the negative ones for sake of data.

Please advise what we can do from here.

Positive results summary:

Y133351 A+
Y133354 C+
Y133361 G+
Y133367 T+
Y133380 A+
Y133386 T+
Y133364 T+
Y133383 A+



Negative results summary:
A20968 A-
A20974 C-
A20979 A-
Y133350 G-
Y133371 C-
Y133377 G-
Y133379 C-
Y133352 G-
Y133359 C-
Y133360 C-
Y133368 C-
A20956 G-
A20978 G-

Ochkas
11-26-2018, 12:02 PM
Hello.

Recently, I analyzed the results of the R1a project through the Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor - NEVGEN. My goal was to find haplotypes with R1a-BY30715 and R1a-YP4647. According to Nevgen, the following haplotypes may have these SNPs.

BY30715 (probability of confirmation of SNP in %):

582827 R-M198 99,6%
221830 Jonas Kalis R-L1029 98,4%
179756 Pólkozic R-Z283 97,9%
183255 Lithuania R-L1029 97,6%
271804 R-M198 97,3%
428513 Felix Poniatowski R-L1029 94,7%
771284 R-M198 94,1%
N115772 alexander ellish R-CTS11962 93,8%
335449 Miron, b. 1720, Serpukhov uezd, Moscow gub R-Z283 93,4%
E18169 Häring b ~ 1610 R-M458 92,5%
266832 Lazar R-M198 84,8%
N81440 *need earliest known paternal ancestor info R-M198 84%
E13601 Andreas Hoppe, b. 1821 and d. 1878 R-M198 82,9%
178294 Jan Klein, b 1913 and d 1993 R-M198 82,5%
292450 ukrainian origin R-M198 76,2%
E4487 Johann Melchior Friedrich Simon1834-1898 R-L1029 75,6%
318156 Ioan Feodorov name given at ba,b.1880 and d.1933 R-M198 74,8%
344710 R-L1029 72,9%
127589 István Miklós, . 1816, Hadikfalva, Bukovina R-Z283 71,4%
536034 Kasmir MIchalski b. abt 1872 R-M198 69,3%
E8017 R-M512 68%
454266 Gustavus Adolf Mahlke b 1853 resided in Flatow pre R-L1029 66,3%
454111 Louis Breunig, b. 1829 and d. 1897 R-M198 64,5%
B48914 George C Kreppel 1865 R-M512 60,8%
387777 R-M512 59,5%
728445 Erik Bengtsson, b. 1720 R-M198 59%
IN18982 Milutin Milosevic 1943 R-M198 55,7%
284069 Michael Heraclidiou, 1887-1973 R-L1029 49,5%
649185 Michael Floyd VA/WV b. 1767 d. 1845 R-M198 48,2%
229520 Bo / Looking for family R-L1029 48,1%

YP4647 (probability of confirmation of SNP in %):

N114137 Jakob Venzke, b. ca. 1550 R-L1029 76,5%
152902 Василий Ващук 19 век Житомирская обл. R-Z283 57,7%

Perhaps the branch of BY3017 is much larger and more diverse than it is presented now. Perhaps there is a need to add SNP BY30715 to the list available for ordering in FTDNA.

Ochkas
11-26-2018, 12:03 PM
↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

Dibran
01-29-2019, 07:15 PM
So the SNP matches were updated on Yfull. Almost all SNP matches are a total of 34 shared SNP. Despite the MRCA between us still being 2000ypb like the rest, this Sardinian match that is at the top of L1029 tree is my closest match with 83 SNPs shared. Also is there a way to contact him? He is the only sample I can't email. I imagine his ancestors came with Byzantines from the mainland. That, or the off-chance that M458 may have been minimally carried by Vandals who went to Sardinia.

01-29-2019, 07:45 PM
Hello.

Recently, I analyzed the results of the R1a project through the Y-DNA Haplogroup Predictor - NEVGEN. My goal was to find haplotypes with R1a-BY30715 and R1a-YP4647. According to Nevgen, the following haplotypes may have these SNPs.

BY30715 (probability of confirmation of SNP in %):

582827 R-M198 99,6%
221830 Jonas Kalis R-L1029 98,4%
179756 Pólkozic R-Z283 97,9%
183255 Lithuania R-L1029 97,6%
271804 R-M198 97,3%
428513 Felix Poniatowski R-L1029 94,7%
771284 R-M198 94,1%
N115772 alexander ellish R-CTS11962 93,8%
335449 Miron, b. 1720, Serpukhov uezd, Moscow gub R-Z283 93,4%
E18169 Häring b ~ 1610 R-M458 92,5%
266832 Lazar R-M198 84,8%
N81440 *need earliest known paternal ancestor info R-M198 84%
E13601 Andreas Hoppe, b. 1821 and d. 1878 R-M198 82,9%
178294 Jan Klein, b 1913 and d 1993 R-M198 82,5%
292450 ukrainian origin R-M198 76,2%
E4487 Johann Melchior Friedrich Simon1834-1898 R-L1029 75,6%
318156 Ioan Feodorov name given at ba,b.1880 and d.1933 R-M198 74,8%
344710 R-L1029 72,9%
127589 István Miklós, . 1816, Hadikfalva, Bukovina R-Z283 71,4%
536034 Kasmir MIchalski b. abt 1872 R-M198 69,3%
E8017 R-M512 68%
454266 Gustavus Adolf Mahlke b 1853 resided in Flatow pre R-L1029 66,3%
454111 Louis Breunig, b. 1829 and d. 1897 R-M198 64,5%
B48914 George C Kreppel 1865 R-M512 60,8%
387777 R-M512 59,5%
728445 Erik Bengtsson, b. 1720 R-M198 59%
IN18982 Milutin Milosevic 1943 R-M198 55,7%
284069 Michael Heraclidiou, 1887-1973 R-L1029 49,5%
649185 Michael Floyd VA/WV b. 1767 d. 1845 R-M198 48,2%
229520 Bo / Looking for family R-L1029 48,1%

YP4647 (probability of confirmation of SNP in %):

N114137 Jakob Venzke, b. ca. 1550 R-L1029 76,5%
152902 Василий Ващук 19 век Житомирская обл. R-Z283 57,7%

Perhaps the branch of BY3017 is much larger and more diverse than it is presented now. Perhaps there is a need to add SNP BY30715 to the list available for ordering in FTDNA.

Just looking at that SNP, And Just realised I think your my 2nd closest distant match, no idea how far away as my Haplogroup is strange.
28684

Dibran
01-29-2019, 07:59 PM
Wait turns out this is from a study. The Sardinian is YP1703

Dibran
09-11-2019, 05:18 PM
................


..................


..............

So, I know the Sardinian sample should technically be YP1703. With the recent update I have noticed a huge change with regard to shared SNPs. All my SNP matches share about 35 SNPs with me at basal L1029. The Sardinian sample which is still L1029* , now shares 93 SNPs with me. I find that to be a pretty big jump/disparity with the others considering a difference of 58 shared SNPs. Could any one chime in on this?

Maybe he is a little closer but still distantly related?