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View Full Version : (R-P312>DF27>ZZ12>FGC23083). William de Duglis, Earl of Morton/Freskyn de Moravia



Webb
01-10-2018, 05:02 PM
I don't know if anyone else would find this interesting, but there are 31 kits under this heading at the Douglas Dna Project. Most claim descent from William de Duglis, but a few are claiming descent from Freskyn de Moravia. Freskin was a Flemish nobleman who settled in Scotland during the reign of King David I, creating the Murray and Sutherland families. It seems there is some muddy waters about the connection between Freskyn de Moravia, or Moray and the Douglas family of Moray. I just thought it was interesting that they are DF27.

razyn
01-10-2018, 08:32 PM
So unless there was an NPE that I don't know about, there's a Child Ballad about a DF27 guy. Probably that should be our official ballad, or something. I've known it for at least 50 years or so, can't quite recall why. Not from the recordings cited in the Wikipedia article. Possibly Richard Dyer-Bennett, or John Jacob Niles? Some slightly hammy ballad singer who was making records in the 1950s or 60s. If accompanied on a guitar, it was a dropped tuning (low E string down to D) and mostly played in D, to get the drone effect w/o actual bagpipes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bonnie_Earl_O%27_Moray

Northman
01-10-2018, 08:44 PM
There are direct paternal Douglas of Morton descendants living in Sweden and they are Haplogroup I1 so these DF27 claimants are just wishful thinkers. Just Google Gustaf Douglas of Sweden. Are there any I1 participants in the Douglas DNA project?

Webb
01-10-2018, 09:04 PM
There are direct paternal Douglas of Morton descendants living in Sweden and they are Haplogroup I1 so these DF27 claimants are just wishful thinkers. Just Google Gustaf Douglas of Sweden. Are there any I1 participants in the Douglas DNA project?

If you read my post, I stated that of the 31 kits under this heading, there a few who claim descent from Freskin de Moravia. I have no idea who is the correct lineage. There is one kit under I1 claiming descent from the Swedish line. 1 kit versus 31 kits. This DF27 group is the largest related group in the project, which means they were very prolific. Again, I have no idea which group is the correct descendants. But paper trails, in my opinion, do not trump DNA. No matter who this DF27 group descends from, they are the largest group in the project.

Northman
01-10-2018, 09:22 PM
If you read my post, I stated that of the 31 kits under this heading, there a few who claim descent from Freskin de Moravia. I have no idea who is the correct lineage. There is one kit under I1 claiming descent from the Swedish line. 1 kit versus 31 kits. This DF27 group is the largest related group in the project, which means they were very prolific. Again, I have no idea which group is the correct descendants. But paper trails, in my opinion, do not trump DNA. No matter who this DF27 group descends from, they are the largest group in the project.

Ok, so if you Google Gustaf Douglas who is Swedish Nobility and pedigree back to god knows when and he's a billionaire, I think we are looking at the correct lineage. He's I1a. So it's pretty safe to say that the I1a Swedish noble who has a pretty concrete pedigree is ticking all the boxes to be the true descendant of the Douglas lineage in question. Any I1a project members with the surname Douglas may be his distant kin. The DF 27 group aren't.

Webb
01-10-2018, 09:41 PM
Ok, so if you Google Gustaf Douglas who is Swedish Nobility and pedigree back to god knows when and he's a billionaire, I think we are looking at the correct lineage. He's I1a. So it's pretty safe to say that the I1a Swedish noble who has a pretty concrete pedigree is ticking all the boxes to be the true descendant of the Douglas lineage in question. Any I1a project members with the surname Douglas may be his distant kin. The DF 27 group aren't.

First, it is just as possible that this group descends from Freskin de Moravia. There are several different groups with different haplogroups claiming to be descended from the same person, which isn't possible. Second, according to paper, I am a Webb, but genetically I am a Wilder. This Wilder group claims descent from the Wilder's of Shiplake, England as do a L21 group, and a U106 group. Again, not possible as these lineages are not related. Third, I don't care who is the rightful descendants of William de Duglis.

Northman
01-10-2018, 09:49 PM
First, it is just as possible that this group descends from Freskin de Moravia. There are several different groups with different haplogroups claiming to be descended from the same person, which isn't possible. Second, according to paper, I am a Webb, but genetically I am a Wilder. This Wilder group claims descent from the Wilder's of Shiplake, England as do a L21 group, and a U106 group. Again, not possible as these lineages are not related. Third, I don't care who is the rightful descendants of William de Duglis.

It is possible that the DF27 do descend from Freskin de Moravia but only if this noble Douglas I1a lineage doesn't descend from Freskin de Moravia via the direct paternal line. You don't care who the rightful descendants of William de Duglis are but you did post about him and now you know who are; it's the noble Swedish Douglas family from Sweden whose direct paternal lineage was originally Scottish. It looks like they've went full circle. They were originally from Scandinavia prior to 1066, they were likely the Scandinavian settlers of Normandy, then to the Isles and then back to Scandinavia. You cannot rule out Flemish origins somewhere in there either!

razyn
01-10-2018, 10:53 PM
Being a billionaire does not increase one's chances of not being a bastard -- or the lineal descendant of one. Webb has been talking about shared DNA, and thus a common paternal ancestor -- not necessarily even since the invention of paper, but genetically proven. You are talking about one family's paper trail, and a modern representative of it who has tested I1a. Unless some medieval tomb has been opened for the ancestor's own YDNA to be tested, that means relatively little. As the Smothers Brothers version of "Streets of Laredo" once put it, "I see, by your outfit, that you have an outfit."

The Plantagenet Society used to have at least fifteen YDNA lines with some claim to descent from Richard III -- none of them strictly legitimate, but that's the nobility for you. They all had a paper trail. There was some hope that the King in the Car Park would match one, and disprove the other fourteen (if that was the final count). I don't know how that worked out, but I expect somebody does.

Dewsloth
01-10-2018, 11:00 PM
The Plantagenet Society used to have at least fifteen YDNA lines with some claim to descent from Richard III -- none of them strictly legitimate, but that's the nobility for you. They all had a paper trail. There was some hope that the King in the Car Park would match one, and disprove the other fourteen (if that was the final count). I don't know how that worked out, but I expect somebody does.


DNA Results
Mitochondrial DNA
The DNA results showed a perfect whole-mitochondrial genome match between Skeleton 1 of the Greyfriars site and Michael Ibsen and a single base difference (mutation) with Wendy Duldig. This was not at all unexpected given the number of generations between them and is consistent with all three of them being related in the genealogical time span.

Y chromosome
Genealogical information showed that all five living male-line relatives of Richard III were descended from Henry Somerset, the 5th Duke of Beaufort and the Y chromosome data for four out of the five male-line relatives showed a match consistent with them being related as expected. However, one of the five had a very different Y chromosome type indicating that a false-paternity had occurred within the last few generations. The Y chromosome type of the Skeleton 1 did not match any of the living male-line relatives showing that a false-paternity event (or events) had also occurred somewhere in the 19 generations between Richard III and Henry Somerset, 5th Duke of Beaufort. This was not a particularly surprising result. Work by Turi King and others has shown that historical rates of false-paternity are around 1-2% per generation.
From: https://www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/science/resultsofdna.html

Webb
01-11-2018, 01:35 AM
It is possible that the DF27 do descend from Freskin de Moravia but only if this noble Douglas I1a lineage doesn't descend from Freskin de Moravia via the direct paternal line. You don't care who the rightful descendants of William de Duglis are but you did post about him and now you know who are; it's the noble Swedish Douglas family from Sweden whose direct paternal lineage was originally Scottish. It looks like they've went full circle. They were originally from Scandinavia prior to 1066, they were likely the Scandinavian settlers of Normandy, then to the Isles and then back to Scandinavia. You cannot rule out Flemish origins somewhere in there either!

The focus of my post was DF27, hence I posted under DF27. If the descendants of William de Duglis was the focus of my post I would have posted under a different sub forum. One of the DF27 Douglas kits tested BigY and shares several snps with a Sutherland on Alex’s Big Tree under the ZZ12 half of DF27. The above mentioned Freskin supposedly is responsible for starting the Sutherland line.

Northman
01-11-2018, 07:34 AM
The focus of my post was DF27, hence I posted under DF27. If the descendants of William de Duglis was the focus of my post I would have posted under a different sub forum. One of the DF27 Douglas kits tested BigY and shares several snps with a Sutherland on Alexís Big Tree under the ZZ12 half of DF27. The above mentioned Freskin supposedly is responsible for starting the Sutherland line.

So what! It's all relevant! I think you just don't like being presented with additional information which contradicts an agenda you have. By the way, there's also I1a among the Sutherland and Murray lineages too. The facts won't change no matter how much you try to look for other correlations.

ADW_1981
01-11-2018, 06:24 PM
It is possible that the DF27 do descend from Freskin de Moravia but only if this noble Douglas I1a lineage doesn't descend from Freskin de Moravia via the direct paternal line. You don't care who the rightful descendants of William de Duglis are but you did post about him and now you know who are; it's the noble Swedish Douglas family from Sweden whose direct paternal lineage was originally Scottish. It looks like they've went full circle. They were originally from Scandinavia prior to 1066, they were likely the Scandinavian settlers of Normandy, then to the Isles and then back to Scandinavia. You cannot rule out Flemish origins somewhere in there either!

I don't see why your point is more valid than his? Neither of you can be certain. Moreover, I1 didn't necessarily arrive in England/Scottish lowlands from Sweden, that is an even more bogus claim than his.

Northman
01-11-2018, 07:01 PM
I don't see why your point is more valid than his? Neither of you can be certain. Moreover, I1 didn't necessarily arrive in England/Scottish lowlands from Sweden, that is an even more bogus claim than his.

I never claimed the I1a Douglas ancestor definitively arrived from Sweden. I think it's most likely that the Douglas Earls were of Norman descent (like most of the British aristocracy from 1066) and most of the Earls from Normandy had Scandinavian origins. The facts are pretty clear though. The Swedish noble Gustaf Douglas is descended from the Scottish Douglas of Morton lineage. These Swedish nobles have a concrete pedigree of their ancestry and they are I1a. There are other Douglas surnames in the Douglas DNA project who have tested positive for I1a and they are distantly related to the Swedish noble I keep referring too. It's pretty conclusive don't you think? Or are you another wishful thinker with an agenda? Anyway, I'm getting bored of repeating myself and it's pretty sad when people make false claims to somehow connect themselves to British aristocracy; it's mainly people from over the pond that do this. I really don't get it! It's clutching at straws at best.

Webb
01-12-2018, 12:54 AM
So what! It's all relevant! I think you just don't like being presented with additional information which contradicts an agenda you have. By the way, there's also I1a among the Sutherland and Murray lineages too. The facts won't change no matter how much you try to look for other correlations.

I am very sorry that this thread has made you overly emotional and deeply irrational. But I will ask you if you can show me where I said that I thought the DF27 Douglas group are the correct descendants of William de Duglis and also how I would benefit from said descendants being DF27 as that branch and my branch haven’t shared a common ancestor in around 4000 years? It’s also interesting, however that the Douglas project admin lists the 31 DF27 Douglas kits as descendants of William de Duglis and the one I1 Gustaf Douglas kit as the Swedish Douglas branch. You know, the Swedish Branch, wink, wink!!

spruithean
01-12-2018, 01:51 AM
Interesting, I've often wondered about the potential (or lack of) for the Murray, Sutherland and Douglas chiefly lines to be related paternally. However, if more Y-DNA testing reveals that these clans aren't related I wouldn't be surprised either.

One thing worth noting though the Morton Douglas line is a singleton within the larger I1a Douglas sphere. The lack of matching individuals to this noble family is surprising. I'm not saying this is the case but it is entirely possible that the Swedish Douglas line had an NPE somewhere along the line, either in Sweden or back in Scotland.

If we look at other Scottish Clan projects like Clan MacDonald, MacNeil, Morrison, or others we can see distinct groups with a notable "chiefly line" within each project, and they are a larger portion of the overall results and perhaps more prolific. For example the MacDonalds appear to have a distinct population of R1a who also match other clans within the greater Clan Donald (MacAlister, MacDougall, etc). In the Morrison and MacNeil projects we see distinct groups corresponding to locations within Scotland (and Northern Ireland).

Dewsloth
01-12-2018, 08:30 AM
The only one I've read about is Clan Grant, which iirc seems to be DF19>DF88>Z29041, and their history goes back to about the 13th Century or so.

Northman
01-12-2018, 09:21 AM
I am very sorry that this thread has made you overly emotional and deeply irrational. But I will ask you if you can show me where I said that I thought the DF27 Douglas group are the correct descendants of William de Duglis and also how I would benefit from said descendants being DF27 as that branch and my branch havenít shared a common ancestor in around 4000 years? Itís also interesting, however that the Douglas project admin lists the 31 DF27 Douglas kits as descendants of William de Duglis and the one I1 Gustaf Douglas kit as the Swedish Douglas branch. You know, the Swedish Branch, wink, wink!!

Hahahah! Overly emotional. Aye, ok! Nice way to try and deflect from the facts as you have no argument. The point is, these DF27 guys do not have a pedigree and they just claim to have one. They've most likely copied each other's trees from ancestry like many do when they get a ancestry hint without validating the sources; it's easily done. The project admin is only highlighting who they put as their most distant ancestors. Has the admin really went to the length to verify their trees? No! How do I know that, because I no that they are wrong about their ancestry. It's funny that Gustaf Douglas not only has the pedigree, he also autosomally matches other well know noble families which share ancestry with the Douglas of Morton; Stewart (who test positive for the known Royal Stewart haplogroup), Gordon, Hamilton and so on. All these autosomal matches he has also have proven pedigrees. Anyway, I'm wasting my breath with many on here as there is an obvious agenda to ignore the facts as they don't fit with your wishful thinking ;-).

Webb
01-12-2018, 12:27 PM
Interesting, I've often wondered about the potential (or lack of) for the Murray, Sutherland and Douglas chiefly lines to be related paternally. However, if more Y-DNA testing reveals that these clans aren't related I wouldn't be surprised either.

One thing worth noting though the Morton Douglas line is a singleton within the larger I1a Douglas sphere. The lack of matching individuals to this noble family is surprising. I'm not saying this is the case but it is entirely possible that the Swedish Douglas line had an NPE somewhere along the line, either in Sweden or back in Scotland.

If we look at other Scottish Clan projects like Clan MacDonald, MacNeil, Morrison, or others we can see distinct groups with a notable "chiefly line" within each project, and they are a larger portion of the overall results and perhaps more prolific. For example the MacDonalds appear to have a distinct population of R1a who also match other clans within the greater Clan Donald (MacAlister, MacDougall, etc). In the Morrison and MacNeil projects we see distinct groups corresponding to locations within Scotland (and Northern Ireland).

That is precisely my point. This DF27 group is the largest group in the surname project. If they are not descended from William de Duglis or Freskin de Moravia, then someone else who was connected to these two families. One of the 31 kits lists a Breton as their earliest ancestor, which is a clue. This branch of DF27 does not appear to be Gaelic. We also know that in many instances clan chiefs have gained titles through their mother. Boyd is an example of a chief assuming the Boyd title without being paternally a Boyd. My point was that this group, no matter their paternity is very robust.

razyn
01-12-2018, 03:38 PM
And my point, on this DF27 thread, was that the DF27 majority in the multitude quibbling over whose paperwork trumps whose might be interested in the song. It turns out I was correct in guessing that I might have learned it (around 1962) from a tape recording of Richard Dyer-Bennett, dubbed from one of his LP records. His somewhat over-the-top arrangement of it was based on Ewan MacColl's (who had learned it from a Scottish soldier, who had learned it at school). I never saw Richard Dyer-Bennett -- some of my colleagues in academic folklore referred to him as "Wretched Diabetic" -- only heard some of his recordings. Anyway, here's the text and tune I had referred to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kZoRG5q7Y

While looking for this ballad online I ran across a scholarly book about the Bonny Earl of Murray by the late Maine folklorist Edward D. "Sandy" Ives, who was a good friend. We were mostly acquainted from participating in late night singing marathons at the annual meetings of the American Folklore Society; but he also took me, my wife and our two sons on a memorable hike in the Maine woods, and we pitched our tents in his back yard, one Labor Day weekend in the late 1980s. RIP Sandy, I just ordered your book.

https://www.amazon.com/Bonny-Earl-Murray-Folklore-Society/dp/0252066391

Webb
01-12-2018, 03:50 PM
And my point, on this DF27 thread, was that the DF27 majority in the multitude quibbling over whose paperwork trumps whose might be interested in the song. It turns out I was correct in guessing that I might have learned it (around 1962) from a tape recording of Richard Dyer-Bennett, dubbed from one of his LP records. His somewhat over-the-top arrangement of it was based on Ewan MacColl's (who had learned it from a Scottish soldier, who had learned it at school). I never saw Richard Dyer-Bennett -- some of my colleagues in academic folklore referred to him as "Wretched Diabetic" -- only heard some of his recordings. Anyway, here's the text and tune I had referred to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kZoRG5q7Y

While looking for this ballad online I ran across a scholarly book about the Bonny Earl of Murray by the late Maine folklorist Edward D. "Sandy" Ives, who was a good friend. We were mostly acquainted from participating in late night singing marathons at the annual meetings of the American Folklore Society; but he also took me, my wife and our two sons on a memorable hike in the Maine woods, and we pitched our tents in his back yard, one Labor Day weekend in the late 1980s. RIP Sandy, I just ordered your book.

https://www.amazon.com/Bonny-Earl-Murray-Folklore-Society/dp/0252066391

While the song is nice, it doesn’t have the soap opera type dramatics as the DF27/I1a dilemma of whose my daddy.

spruithean
01-12-2018, 10:30 PM
That is precisely my point. This DF27 group is the largest group in the surname project. If they are not descended from William de Duglis or Freskin de Moravia, then someone else who was connected to these two families. One of the 31 kits lists a Breton as their earliest ancestor, which is a clue. This branch of DF27 does not appear to be Gaelic. We also know that in many instances clan chiefs have gained titles through their mother. Boyd is an example of a chief assuming the Boyd title without being paternally a Boyd. My point was that this group, no matter their paternity is very robust.

Agreed,

One thing which is overlooked with Scottish Clans is the notion of people who were adopted into the clan or families who adopted the clan surname for protection and other benefits from living within the boundaries of a clan chief's land.


Hahahah! Overly emotional. Aye, ok! Nice way to try and deflect from the facts as you have no argument. The point is, these DF27 guys do not have a pedigree and they just claim to have one. They've most likely copied each other's trees from ancestry like many do when they get a ancestry hint without validating the sources; it's easily done. The project admin is only highlighting who they put as their most distant ancestors. Has the admin really went to the length to verify their trees? No! How do I know that, because I no that they are wrong about their ancestry. It's funny that Gustaf Douglas not only has the pedigree, he also autosomally matches other well know noble families which share ancestry with the Douglas of Morton; Stewart (who test positive for the known Royal Stewart haplogroup), Gordon, Hamilton and so on. All these autosomal matches he has also have proven pedigrees. Anyway, I'm wasting my breath with many on here as there is an obvious agenda to ignore the facts as they don't fit with your wishful thinking ;-).

The DF27 Douglas group clearly is significant, especially if they have no pedigrees and all copies their trees off of Ancestry. Perhaps there are a few dominant haplogroups within Clan Douglas, or perhaps some branches of Clan Douglas aren't related through the Y-line, but instead autosomally.

I'm not saying Gustaf Douglas isn't a Douglas or if he is the descendant of an NPE, it is just not overly convincing when there is only 1 representative of his branch in the DNA project.

Northman
01-14-2018, 01:14 PM
Agreed,

One thing which is overlooked with Scottish Clans is the notion of people who were adopted into the clan or families who adopted the clan surname for protection and other benefits from living within the boundaries of a clan chief's land.



The DF27 Douglas group clearly is significant, especially if they have no pedigrees and all copies their trees off of Ancestry. Perhaps there are a few dominant haplogroups within Clan Douglas, or perhaps some branches of Clan Douglas aren't related through the Y-line, but instead autosomally.

I'm not saying Gustaf Douglas isn't a Douglas or if he is the descendant of an NPE, it is just not overly convincing when there is only 1 representative of his branch in the DNA project.

Well this is my point! The DF27 LOT are most likely a Sept of the Douglas clan but they are not directly descended from the noble paternal Douglas lineage.

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 04:40 PM
If all the DF27 Douglas lines go back to the same man in their paternal line then you can assume there is no NPE in that line up to that point. The only options are that:

1. it happened before then in that line,
2. it happened in the Gustaf line, or
3. it happened in both lines.

Northman
01-14-2018, 06:18 PM
If all the DF27 Douglas lines go back to the same man in their paternal line then you can assume there is no NPE in that line up to that point. The only options are that:

1. it happened before then in that line,
2. it happened in the Gustaf line, or
3. it happened in both lines.

Why doesn't one of you e-mail one of these DF27 guys and ask for the evidence of their pedigree all the way back to the Douglas Earl of Morton they claim to be descended from. I guarantee that they cannot provide such evidence that they do ;-). It's obvious they are related by the same Douglas ancestor but they are not descended from the early Earls of Morton via the direct paternal line. If they were, why are none of them a noble now when we have an actual noble who lives in Sweden who has a proven pedigree back to the Douglas Earls of Morton? Why do other noble families that have survived to date not know about them and also have links with them? Noble family tradition is to marry in to other noble families. Who are they linked with?

Get me the proof and I'll believe it. Otherwise, it's just speculation and an ancestral error jumped on by others sharing the same yDNA and surname!

razyn
01-14-2018, 06:25 PM
Get me the proof and I'll believe it.

I'm pretty sure I can speak for the broader DF27 community when I say we do not care a fig what you, an R1a guy with no dog in the fight either way, believe about this interesting subclade in our haplogroup project.

Northman
01-14-2018, 06:32 PM
I'm pretty sure I can speak for the broader DF27 community when I say we do not care a fig what you, an R1a guy with no dog in the fight either way, believe about this interesting subclade in our haplogroup project.

What's my yDNA got to do with it? You're just pissed that I've put a spanner in the works of your desire to make false links to a Scottish noble family based on no evidence whatsoever ;-). To make such a claim, you better have the evidence to back it up or people like me jump all over it ;-). I see it on ancestry all the time, people copying trees from other's all the way back to Rollo without any evidence or cross referencing. It's mainly Americans with their desire to link to British aristocracy and they'll accept anything even when it's wrong. Us Brits just laugh! I'm still laughing so prove me wrong! Or are you so keen not to prove me wrong because you know you cannot? I think the latter ;-).

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 06:33 PM
Why doesn't one of you e-mail one of these DF27 guys and ask for the evidence of their pedigree all the way back to the Douglas Earl of Morton they claim to be descended from. I guarantee that they cannot provide such evidence that they do ;-). It's obvious they are related by the same Douglas ancestor but they are not descended from the early Earls of Morton via the direct paternal line. If they were, why are none of them a noble now when we have an actual noble who lives in Sweden who has a proven pedigree back to the Douglas Earls of Morton? Why do other noble families that have survived to date not know about them and also have links with them? Noble family tradition is to marry in to other noble families. Who are they linked with?

Get me the proof and I'll believe it. Otherwise, it's just speculation and an ancestral error jumped on by others sharing the same yDNA and surname!

Even if they did provide a paper trail, it wouldn't prove anything if not backed up with genetic testing. What is needed is triangulation...various paternal lines going back to the same ancestor. I've not really followed this topic. Who is/how far back is this DF27 shared Douglas ancestor?

As a U152 guy I don't care a fig about how this topic turns out...just throwing in some emotionless thoughts.

Northman
01-14-2018, 06:37 PM
Even if they did provide a paper trail, it wouldn't prove anything if not backed up with genetic testing. What is needed is triangulation...various paternal lines going back to the same ancestor. I've not really followed this topic. Who is/how far back is this DF27 shared Douglas ancestor?

William de Duglis, alive 1174, and Earls of Morton. Yet we have a known Douglas noble (I1a), family moved to Sweden in 1500s to marry in to Swedish nobility. They have a proven pedigree to the Scottish Douglas Earls of Morton.

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 06:41 PM
William de Duglis, alive 1174, and Earls of Morton. Yet we have a known Douglas noble (I1a), family moved to Sweden in 1500s to marry in to Swedish nobility. They have a proven pedigree to the Scottish Douglas Earls of Morton.
Sorry, I meant all these DF27 Douglas lines? Who is their MRCA? and when was he born?

corner
01-14-2018, 06:42 PM
There is research at the University of St Andrews' 'Scotland and the Flemish People' project. This blog by Alexandrina Murray is from back in February 2016 but it describes the DF27 'Douglas-Sutherland cohort'.

http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/02/26/the-murray-sutherland-and-douglas-families-were-they-related-and-were-they-flemish/

Northman
01-14-2018, 06:44 PM
Sorry, I meant all these DF27 Douglas lines? Who is their MRCA? and when was he born?

I don't know! Here's a link to the Douglas project though: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Douglas/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 06:49 PM
I don't know! Here's a link to the Douglas project though: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Douglas/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

I didn't think you did. I wasn't asking you. I was asking about DF27 Douglas lines

Northman
01-14-2018, 06:52 PM
I didn't this you did. I wasn't asking you.

What are you asking? You aren't making much sense!

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 06:59 PM
What are you asking? You aren't making much sense!

Fixed my typo in quoted post above "think" not "this"

To review:
I asked if anyone knew about the DF27 Douglas MRCA proven via dna testing.

You responded off topic about
William de Duglis, alive 1174, and Earls of Morton. Yet we have a known Douglas noble (I1a)

I responded that I was asking about DF27 Douglas men not I1a

You respond
I don't know! thinking I was asking you to provide the answer. I wasn't. I was asking for anyone who knew to provide the answer

Now that that is cleared up...

razyn
01-14-2018, 07:00 PM
I believe the question is addressed to the OP, and that would be Webb. I only commented about the ballad, but I am in fact an admin of the DF27 project at FTDNA, as most of the people posting here who aren't total newbs already know.

Northman
01-14-2018, 07:11 PM
Fixed my typo in quoted post above "think" not "this"

To review:
I asked if anyone knew about the DF27 Douglas MRCA proven via dna testing.

You responded off topic about

I responded that I was asking about DF27 Douglas men not I1a

You respond thinking I was asking you to provide the answer. I wasn't. I was asking for anyone who knew to provide the answer

Now that that is cleared up...

My response was in relation to the DF27 men. They state William de Duglis, alive 1174, and Earls of Morton. However, we have a known Douglas noble, originally from the Scottish noble family of Morton living in Sweden. One of the Douglas of Morton married Swedish nobility back in about the 1500s (off the top of my head). I'd have to double check that date though.

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 07:19 PM
There is research at the University of St Andrews' 'Scotland and the Flemish People' project. This blog by Alexandrina Murray is from back in February 2016 but it describes the DF27 'Douglas-Sutherland cohort'.

http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/02/26/the-murray-sutherland-and-douglas-families-were-they-related-and-were-they-flemish/

Quotes from the thread.


[56] Ibid., All three projects: Murray: Douglas and Sutherland have enlisted members whose paper trail and published lineages place them as members within senior or well known clan lineages, yet who do not match any other members Y-DNA from within those projects. Relationship to their ancestral progenitor cannot be discounted however based solely on DNA Project membership numbers alone. Dozens of members of one family line may in fact be the outliers, having joined the project en-mass, and the lone member who does not match the others could theoretically be the genuine paternal line descendant.


If we were to recruit a number of Murray men descended from proven Tullibardine Touchadam -Polmaise and cadet Murray progenitors then, and only then would we be able to potentially answer the question as to whether a Murray-Sutherland-Douglas shared genetic Y-DNA paternal line inheritance from Freskin de Moravia is feasible. Until then though, this question remains moot.

Sounds like a lot more dna testing is required to answer this question.

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 07:22 PM
My response was in relation to the DF27 men. They state William de Duglis, alive 1174, and Earls of Morton. However, we have a known Douglas noble, originally from the Scottish noble family of Morton living in Sweden. One of the Douglas of Morton married Swedish nobility back in about the 1500s (off the top of my head). I'd have to double check that date though.

Ok, sounds like we both misunderstood each other :beerchug:

Northman
01-14-2018, 07:25 PM
Ok, sounds like we both misunderstood each other :beerchug:

Yes! Apologies.

corner
01-14-2018, 07:49 PM
Sounds like a lot more dna testing is required to answer this question.It would be good to know what progress has been made in the couple of years since that article - details that those involved are best placed to give. It sounds like an ongoing study. Of course, every common surname project usually contains many different unrelated founders and ideally needs ancient yDNA reference from the founder himself.

ADW_1981
01-21-2018, 05:07 PM
I never claimed the I1a Douglas ancestor definitively arrived from Sweden. I think it's most likely that the Douglas Earls were of Norman descent (like most of the British aristocracy from 1066) and most of the Earls from Normandy had Scandinavian origins. The facts are pretty clear though. The Swedish noble Gustaf Douglas is descended from the Scottish Douglas of Morton lineage. These Swedish nobles have a concrete pedigree of their ancestry and they are I1a. There are other Douglas surnames in the Douglas DNA project who have tested positive for I1a and they are distantly related to the Swedish noble I keep referring too. It's pretty conclusive don't you think? Or are you another wishful thinker with an agenda? Anyway, I'm getting bored of repeating myself and it's pretty sad when people make false claims to somehow connect themselves to British aristocracy; it's mainly people from over the pond that do this. I really don't get it! It's clutching at straws at best.

Normans are very young in history and were definitely composed of many Y lineages, and DF27 was likely among the "Norman" aristocrats but also among the people of northern Germany indigenously, not just because they had been acquired in the mix. Of course I1 was also there, but were likely the indigenous people of the north German lowlands before the "migration period" and the attestation of "Germanic" languages. It's simply too old in the region to be responsible exclusively for Germanic.

The Hiberno-Norman House of Butler and House of Burke are both strong candidates for being S21184+ which is a north European "continental" branch of DF27. Of course NPE's are happening all the time, it's one person's word against another.

Do the Scottish Douglasses have strong STR match to the Swedish noble line? They would need to be of a near exact SNP branch and be very close STR wise.

Webb
11-29-2018, 05:14 PM
So I have been doing quite a bit of reading on this topic. Below is a link to a very interesting article by Alexandrina Murray on the University of St. Andrew's website, titled: "The Murray, Sutherland and Douglas families: were they related and were they Flemish?"

http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2016/02/26/the-murray-sutherland-and-douglas-families-were-they-related-and-were-they-flemish/

There are 29 kits who are FGC23083 or matches in the Douglas Surname project results page. This is the largest family grouping on this project.

There are 33 kits who are FGC23074 or matches in the Sutherland Surname project results page. This is the largest family grouping on this project.

There are a number of DF27 Murray/Morrow kits in the Murray Surname project results page, but only one who matches FGC23071-FGC23083.

According to Ytree FGC23071 has an age of 1644BC. Underneath this block is FGC23066, which has an age of 516BC and has one Sutherland kit. Underneath this block is FGC23083 which has an age of 426BC and includes two Douglas, one Robey, and one Montgomery. What is also interesting is there is one Breton kit who is FGC23083 in the DF27 project.

Shawn Johnsson
09-03-2020, 07:45 PM
This is an old thread, but my cousin is one of the Douglas’s in the large pool of D27’s claiming Douglas of Morton descent. In speaking with my cousin and other in this group, 5 participants have pedigrees going back to the Douglas Lairds of Mains and one participant is and actual Great Grandson of The 19th Earl of Morton. So there is some evidence. I appreciate the attention and look forward to more research.