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prashantvaidwan
01-11-2018, 06:07 AM
if entire human race is divided in caucasoid , negroid and mangoloid, where the L haplogroup falls? As this haplogroup is supposed to be originated in Pamir (tajikistan), so is it caucasoid?

bmoney
01-11-2018, 06:40 AM
if entire human race is divided in caucasoid , negroid and mangoloid, where the L haplogroup falls? As this haplogroup is supposed to be originated in Pamir (tajikistan), so is it caucasoid?

The L split is too old to determine what the carrier looked like. For example K2 the sibling of K1 (hap L + T) is the ancestor of haplogroups common in Siberia, Papua New Guinea/Australian Aboriginals, All E and SE Asians, most Europeans

What subclade are you? if L1a then the earliest ancient dna we know of with this hap was from the Armenian Chalcolithic with these phenotypes

Eye color (HIrisPlex System) Likely Blue
Hair color (HIrisPlex System) Likely Red
Skin pigmentation Likely light

Whats your caste/community?

prashantvaidwan
01-11-2018, 07:03 AM
I am a Jat from delhi region. The most common L among jatts is L1c (L-M357). In india, L-M357 peaks at northwest and also found in south india (but subsequently very low). It is also found predominantly in pashtuns and kalashs. As jatt, pashtuns and kalashs are mostly good looking, tall and and strong built, I was curious to dig a bit more about y haplogroup and physical appearance connection. I am a naive in this field and have a limited knowledge.

bmoney
01-11-2018, 12:10 PM
I am a Jat from delhi region. The most common L among jatts is L1c (L-M357). In india, L-M357 peaks at northwest and also found in south india (but subsequently very low). It is also found predominantly in pashtuns and kalashs. As jatt, pashtuns and kalashs are mostly good looking, tall and and strong built, I was curious to dig a bit more about y haplogroup and physical appearance connection. I am a naive in this field and have a limited knowledge.

Whats your Harappa dna calculator results - autosomal ancestry is more relevant than y-dna when it comes to areas like physical appearance

Y-dna just tells you where your paternal lineage came from. Are you L1c?

prashantvaidwan
01-11-2018, 01:56 PM
I have not get myself tested yet but i am planning soon. I was wondering how the calculator determines the ancestry % and what it actually mean. As in below data from harappa ancestry project, i understand that Jatts have higher NE euro in comparison of their neighboring population. The other communities which are close to jatts in NE euro are brahmin and khatris. As high NE euro is a marker of Indo-european ancestry which peaks in balkan area. Does it mean that jatts have higher North east european autosomal?
I am also curious to know if a person with Y haplogroup L1c can have higher NE euro though L1c is negligible presence in europe? how this whole thing works? In India we have ANI and ASI component. Jats have lower ASI in comparison of surrounding population what does it represent? My understanding is that ASI is mostly H y-haplogroup (australoid people) which is native of India and ANI is L, J, R, G, Q (central asian/siberian etc) thanks in advance if I can have your insight

Ethnicity SIndian Baloch Caucasian NEEuro
Punjabi Jatt 28% 39% 11% 10%
Punjabi Jatt 30% 44% 6% 14%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 42% 8% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 46% 7% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 40% 10% 15%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 44% 10% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 35% 16% 11%
Punjabi Jatt Muslim 30% 39% 13% 8%
Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
Haryana Jatt 28% 38% 5% 20%
Haryana Jatt 26% 39% 10% 17%
Rajasthan Marwari Jain 47% 34% 5% 6%
Rajasthani Agarwal 51% 37% 6% 1%
Rajasthani Brahmin 32% 38% 9% 15%
Rajasthani Marwari 48% 34% 6% 2%
Rajasthani Rajput 45% 38% 5% 9%
UP 40% 28% 10% 8%
UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
UP Kayastha 47% 38% 5% 3%
UP Muslim 33% 33% 10% 9%
UP Muslim 28% 35% 12% 11%
UP Muslim Pathan 48% 36% 7% 4%
UP Muslim Syed 33% 31% 13% 7%
UP Syed 36% 37% 7% 8%
UP/Haryana Agarwal 52% 35% 6% 2%
UP/Haryana Jatt 28% 42% 7% 18%

vettor
01-11-2018, 05:05 PM
I am a Jat from delhi region. The most common L among jatts is L1c (L-M357). In india, L-M357 peaks at northwest and also found in south india (but subsequently very low). It is also found predominantly in pashtuns and kalashs. As jatt, pashtuns and kalashs are mostly good looking, tall and and strong built, I was curious to dig a bit more about y haplogroup and physical appearance connection. I am a naive in this field and have a limited knowledge.

For what it is worth , one study states the origins of LT is the sind valley
http://thegeneticatlas.com/LT_Y-DNA.htm

but IMO, south-central Asia area is the most likely.........the area of caspian sea, oxus river, turkmenistan and the pamir mountains ...............the sind valley does not fit well with T in india although L fits nicely

kush
01-11-2018, 10:30 PM
I have not get myself tested yet but i am planning soon. I was wondering how the calculator determines the ancestry % and what it actually mean. As in below data from harappa ancestry project, i understand that Jatts have higher NE euro in comparison of their neighboring population. The other communities which are close to jatts in NE euro are brahmin and khatris. As high NE euro is a marker of Indo-european ancestry which peaks in balkan area. Does it mean that jatts have higher North east european autosomal?
I am also curious to know if a person with Y haplogroup L1c can have higher NE euro though L1c is negligible presence in europe? how this whole thing works? In India we have ANI and ASI component. Jats have lower ASI in comparison of surrounding population what does it represent? My understanding is that ASI is mostly H y-haplogroup (australoid people) which is native of India and ANI is L, J, R, G, Q (central asian/siberian etc) thanks in advance if I can have your insight

Ethnicity SIndian Baloch Caucasian NEEuro
Punjabi Jatt 28% 39% 11% 10%
Punjabi Jatt 30% 44% 6% 14%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 42% 8% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 46% 7% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 40% 10% 15%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 44% 10% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 35% 16% 11%
Punjabi Jatt Muslim 30% 39% 13% 8%
Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
Haryana Jatt 28% 38% 5% 20%
Haryana Jatt 26% 39% 10% 17%
Rajasthan Marwari Jain 47% 34% 5% 6%
Rajasthani Agarwal 51% 37% 6% 1%
Rajasthani Brahmin 32% 38% 9% 15%
Rajasthani Marwari 48% 34% 6% 2%
Rajasthani Rajput 45% 38% 5% 9%
UP 40% 28% 10% 8%
UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
UP Kayastha 47% 38% 5% 3%
UP Muslim 33% 33% 10% 9%
UP Muslim 28% 35% 12% 11%
UP Muslim Pathan 48% 36% 7% 4%
UP Muslim Syed 33% 31% 13% 7%
UP Syed 36% 37% 7% 8%
UP/Haryana Agarwal 52% 35% 6% 2%
UP/Haryana Jatt 28% 42% 7% 18%

Actually the haplogroups don't have much to do with ASI/ANI percentages. There are many south indian tribals with R1a and punjabis/kashmiris with H. As bmoney mentioned it just shows where your paternal line originally came from. Punjabi jatts aren't just L, they can have all the haplogroups you listed. Most common ones are R1a, J, L, and H among punjabis. In terms of looking kalash or pathan, then you probably need to check for the autosomal results. NE euro doesn't mean you have actual mixture from east europeans. It takes origin from a west eurasian group in central asia from the so called aryans. Baloch comes from Iran neolithic farmers who migrated into the subcontinent as dravidians. These people most likely brought the haplogroups L and J. But again haplogroups don't mean much since L is spread in south india, northwest india/pakistan, and afghanistan. All these populations look quite different from each other. South Indian is basically the native indian DNA, found highest among south indian tribals. Thats why its named after them. S.indian is half west eurasian. It's not completely ASI. Since you're punjabi jatt, your results might be fairly similar to the jatts you posted above around 28-30% S. Indian, with 14-15% being ASI, and the rest west eurasian. I'm not sure if all of the west eurasian is ANI. Again I'm no expert. I'm just going by what I know :)

bmoney
01-12-2018, 02:55 AM
For what it is worth , one study states the origins of LT is the sind valley
http://thegeneticatlas.com/LT_Y-DNA.htm

but IMO, south-central Asia area is the most likely.........the area of caspian sea, oxus river, turkmenistan and the pamir mountains ...............the sind valley does not fit well with T in india although L fits nicely

L1 seems to have the most diversity in Iran - SC Asia only has L1a and L1c and no L2. There is no way L2 is native to or originated in SC Asia

bmoney
01-12-2018, 03:07 AM
I have not get myself tested yet but i am planning soon. I was wondering how the calculator determines the ancestry % and what it actually mean. As in below data from harappa ancestry project, i understand that Jatts have higher NE euro in comparison of their neighboring population. The other communities which are close to jatts in NE euro are brahmin and khatris. As high NE euro is a marker of Indo-european ancestry which peaks in balkan area. Does it mean that jatts have higher North east european autosomal?
I am also curious to know if a person with Y haplogroup L1c can have higher NE euro though L1c is negligible presence in europe? how this whole thing works? In India we have ANI and ASI component. Jats have lower ASI in comparison of surrounding population what does it represent? My understanding is that ASI is mostly H y-haplogroup (australoid people) which is native of India and ANI is L, J, R, G, Q (central asian/siberian etc) thanks in advance if I can have your insight

Ethnicity SIndian Baloch Caucasian NEEuro
Punjabi Jatt 28% 39% 11% 10%
Punjabi Jatt 30% 44% 6% 14%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 42% 8% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 46% 7% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 40% 10% 15%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 44% 10% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 35% 16% 11%
Punjabi Jatt Muslim 30% 39% 13% 8%
Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
Haryana Jat 25% 33% 12% 17%
Haryana Jatt 28% 38% 5% 20%
Haryana Jatt 26% 39% 10% 17%
Rajasthan Marwari Jain 47% 34% 5% 6%
Rajasthani Agarwal 51% 37% 6% 1%
Rajasthani Brahmin 32% 38% 9% 15%
Rajasthani Marwari 48% 34% 6% 2%
Rajasthani Rajput 45% 38% 5% 9%
UP 40% 28% 10% 8%
UP Brahmin 41% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 40% 37% 7% 11%
UP Brahmin 37% 38% 2% 14%
UP Kayastha 47% 38% 5% 3%
UP Muslim 33% 33% 10% 9%
UP Muslim 28% 35% 12% 11%
UP Muslim Pathan 48% 36% 7% 4%
UP Muslim Syed 33% 31% 13% 7%
UP Syed 36% 37% 7% 8%
UP/Haryana Agarwal 52% 35% 6% 2%
UP/Haryana Jatt 28% 42% 7% 18%

yes NE euro %ages are quite elevated in Jatts particularly Haryana Jatts compared to surrounding pops according to the reference data. NE Euro peaks in the Baltic states not the Balkans, which is why its named NE Euro. But NE Euro is a steppe Indo-Aryan marker and would better fit R1a1a than L. L would better fit 'Baloch' at the group level

L1c would not correlate with ancestry at the individual level except to say the person has at least a drop of Gedrosian/BMAC blood. For example even if you're an H Punjabi you'd be more genetically Punjabi than a south Indian H. So if you're extrapolating the data to yourself, you will definitely have higher South Indian than a Kalash even if you both share the same y-dna

At a group level - To groups which have elevated L1c %ages like Jatts and the Kalash - it does loosely correspond to high Baloch/Hindu-Kush/Gedrosian component. In eastern and southern India hap L is quite rare and Gedrosian levels are generally lower.

The Baluch have the highest Gedrosian of all and L1a is their most common haplogroup if i recall correctly

Also are you a Jaat from Western UP? your scores would differ to other Jatts if that is the case, will be interesting to see your results

My understanding is that ASI is mostly H y-haplogroup (australoid people) which is native of India and ANI is L, J, R, G, Q (central asian/siberian etc) thanks in advance if I can have your insight

Mostly right - Id add F and C to H as major ASI haplogroup lineages, and O in the Eastern part of India

Also ANI isnt a population, its a mix of both Neolithic Farmers from Iran and Steppe people who are quite different to each other

vettor
01-12-2018, 05:47 AM
L1 seems to have the most diversity in Iran - SC Asia only has L1a and L1c and no L2. There is no way L2 is native to or originated in SC Asia

I refer to this area
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex
as south central asia ......IMO T and L where created in here or very near here

prashantvaidwan
01-12-2018, 07:20 AM
Actually the haplogroups don't have much to do with ASI/ANI percentages. There are many south indian tribals with R1a and punjabis/kashmiris with H. As bmoney mentioned it just shows where your paternal line originally came from. Punjabi jatts aren't just L, they can have all the haplogroups you listed. Most common ones are R1a, J, L, and H among punjabis. In terms of looking kalash or pathan, then you probably need to check for the autosomal results. NE euro doesn't mean you have actual mixture from east europeans. It takes origin from a west eurasian group in central asia from the so called aryans. Baloch comes from Iran neolithic farmers who migrated into the subcontinent as dravidians. These people most likely brought the haplogroups L and J. But again haplogroups don't mean much since L is spread in south india, northwest india/pakistan, and afghanistan. All these populations look quite different from each other. South Indian is basically the native indian DNA, found highest among south indian tribals. Thats why its named after them. S.indian is half west eurasian. It's not completely ASI. Since you're punjabi jatt, your results might be fairly similar to the jatts you posted above around 28-30% S. Indian, with 14-15% being ASI, and the rest west eurasian. I'm not sure if all of the west eurasian is ANI. Again I'm no expert. I'm just going by what I know :)

Thanks for clarification. From harappa ancestry and others lke 23andme ftdna, Y haplogroup sequence among jats is R> L > J >Q. They have also shown other haplogroups as G,T I and H but these are less than 5 %

prashantvaidwan
01-12-2018, 07:28 AM
yes NE euro %ages are quite elevated in Jatts particularly Haryana Jatts compared to surrounding pops according to the reference data. NE Euro peaks in the Baltic states not the Balkans, which is why its named NE Euro. But NE Euro is a steppe Indo-Aryan marker and would better fit R1a1a than L. L would better fit 'Baloch' at the group level

L1c would not correlate with ancestry at the individual level except to say the person has at least a drop of Gedrosian/BMAC blood. For example even if you're an H Punjabi you'd be more genetically Punjabi than a south Indian H. So if you're extrapolating the data to yourself, you will definitely have higher South Indian than a Kalash even if you both share the same y-dna

At a group level - To groups which have elevated L1c %ages like Jatts and the Kalash - it does loosely correspond to high Baloch/Hindu-Kush/Gedrosian component. In eastern and southern India hap L is quite rare and Gedrosian levels are generally lower.

The Baluch have the highest Gedrosian of all and L1a is their most common haplogroup if i recall correctly

Also are you a Jaat from Western UP? your scores would differ to other Jatts if that is the case, will be interesting to see your results

My understanding is that ASI is mostly H y-haplogroup (australoid people) which is native of India and ANI is L, J, R, G, Q (central asian/siberian etc) thanks in advance if I can have your insight

Mostly right - Id add F and C to H as major ASI haplogroup lineages, and O in the Eastern part of India

Also ANI isnt a population, its a mix of both Neolithic Farmers from Iran and Steppe people who are quite different to each other

Yes. I am a hindu jat from western UP, just on the border of haryana and most people of my clan are sikh jatts and resides around chandigarh area. Can you suggest me where I should get myself tested to get all these details?.....ofcourse not with much burden on my pocket :)

bmoney
01-12-2018, 08:13 AM
I refer to this area
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex
as south central asia ......IMO T and L where created in here or very near here

I respectfully disagree

BMAC IMO was the source of L1c in South Asia, possibly L1a as well. There are no L1bs in the vicinity of the BMAC or in modern South Asians who have part of their ancestry from there

L1a was found in Chalcolithic Armenia whereas the BMAC is only 2300 BC at its oldest, so it couldn't have originated in the BMAC

According to phylogenetic tree L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant

L2 - L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland, Iberian Peninsula and Sardinia to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.

T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, the Nile Valley, the Arabian peninsula, Iran, as well as in some regions of Eastern India and Europe

The only scenario that accounts for these geographic distributions is a Levant/Caucasus origin for basal L and a West Asian origin for LT

bmoney
01-12-2018, 08:24 AM
Yes. I am a hindu jat from western UP, just on the border of haryana and most people of my clan are sikh jatts and resides around chandigarh area. Can you suggest me where I should get myself tested to get all these details?.....ofcourse not with much burden on my pocket :)

23andme is affordable and will tell you a very basic y-dna profile such as if you are R1a or L but wont tell you if you're L1a L1c etc.

For autosomal ancestry I'm not sure what the best product is for the South Asian calculators currently available but its definitely not 23andme. I'm not sure if some of them tell you your y-dna though

The deep y tests by FTDNA are quite expensive. I'll wait for other members of the forum to answer you, I don't know much about this area

I actually guessed that I was L1a using an online ISOGG tool of which I'm not sure how accurate it is, as 23andme only told me I was L

Sapporo
01-12-2018, 12:04 PM
23andme is affordable and will tell you a very basic y-dna profile such as if you are R1a or L but wont tell you if you're L1a L1c etc.

For autosomal ancestry I'm not sure what the best product is for the South Asian calculators currently available but its definitely not 23andme. I'm not sure if some of them tell you your y-dna though

The deep y tests by FTDNA are quite expensive. I'll wait for other members of the forum to answer you, I don't know much about this area

I actually guessed that I was L1a using an online ISOGG tool of which I'm not sure how accurate it is, as 23andme only told me I was L

23andMe originally told me I was L3* which is equivalent to L1c-M357. It currently states I am L-M357. I guess it depends on which L subtype you are for how much detail you are provided.

As for which test to take, it all depends on your location. I would recommend 23andMe (but it doesn't ship to many countries including most in Asia) or others like Living DNA, Ancestry DNA, Geno 2.0, etc. I agree with your comments on FTDNA though since it requires additional money to get your haplogroups sequenced along with your autosomal DNA.

https://int.customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/214806628-What-countries-do-you-ship-to-


Yes. I am a hindu jat from western UP, just on the border of haryana and most people of my clan are sikh jatts and resides around chandigarh area. Can you suggest me where I should get myself tested to get all these details?.....ofcourse not with much burden on my pocket :)

Your autosomal DNA shouldn't be too different from Haryanvi Jats and some Jatt Sikhs. Harappa Ancestry Project has one half Haryana/half Western UP Jat as you posted above. Your Y-DNA could be anything but it is most likely either R1a1a or L1c-M357. As for mt-DNA, there is no consistency but you will likely find other Jats with the same mt-DNA. Two of the Jats on the spreadsheet below share my mt-DNA (HV2). One is a Beniwal Haryana Jat and the other is a Jhaj Jatt Sikh.

The spreadsheet below has a good list of individual Jat haplogroups. Most are Jatt Sikh but some are Hindu. They were collected by myself or Dr_McNinja through 23andmMe or FTDNA.

Edit: removed the spreadsheet. You can pm me for it.

bmoney
01-13-2018, 12:46 AM
I respectfully disagree

BMAC IMO was the source of L1c in South Asia, possibly L1a as well. There are no L1bs in the vicinity of the BMAC or in modern South Asians who have part of their ancestry from there

L1a was found in Chalcolithic Armenia whereas the BMAC is only 2300 BC at its oldest, so it couldn't have originated in the BMAC

According to phylogenetic tree L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant

L2 - L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland, Iberian Peninsula and Sardinia to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.

T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, the Nile Valley, the Arabian peninsula, Iran, as well as in some regions of Eastern India and Europe

The only scenario that accounts for these geographic distributions is a Levant/Caucasus origin for basal L and a West Asian origin for LT

Just wanted to add to this argument with an L tree I grabbed off Wegene, thanks Kush for the recommendation

20729

Its clear that L1a in this graphic (L1a1 + L1a2/L1c) was the only offshoot that went East, which suggests a West to East movement, not the other way around

Anabasis
01-13-2018, 03:22 PM
L2 also found in italy, armenia, Turkey and azerbaijan. btw L1 seems orriginated in middle east as far as all of the branches L1a, L1b and L1c found there with high diversity.

prashantvaidwan
01-16-2018, 02:12 PM
23andMe originally told me I was L3* which is equivalent to L1c-M357. It currently states I am L-M357. I guess it depends on which L subtype you are for how much detail you are provided.

As for which test to take, it all depends on your location. I would recommend 23andMe (but it doesn't ship to many countries including most in Asia) or others like Living DNA, Ancestry DNA, Geno 2.0, etc. I agree with your comments on FTDNA though since it requires additional money to get your haplogroups sequenced along with your autosomal DNA.


Your autosomal DNA shouldn't be too different from Haryanvi Jats and some Jatt Sikhs. Harappa Ancestry Project has one half Haryana/half Western UP Jat as you posted above. Your Y-DNA could be anything but it is most likely either R1a1a or L1c-M357. As for mt-DNA, there is no consistency but you will likely find other Jats with the same mt-DNA. Two of the Jats on the spreadsheet below share my mt-DNA (HV2). One is a Beniwal Haryana Jat and the other is a Jhaj Jatt Sikh.

The spreadsheet below has a good list of individual Jat haplogroups. Most are Jatt Sikh but some are Hindu. They were collected by myself or Dr_McNinja through 23andmMe or FTDNA.

Edit: removed the spreadsheet. You can pm me for it.

I found few sheets in another threads. I observed that :

- Though muslims jats are in west to sikh/hindu jats but they have higher ASI in comparison of sikh/hindu jat. For sikh/hindu jat it never transcends 30%. Sikh/hindu jats have lowest ASI in India. I tend to believe that muslim jats did not strictly practice endogamy in some recent past

- Caucasian % among few sikh jatts is higher than hindu jat.

- NE euro in jats ( sikh and hindu both) is highest in india and few hindu jats tops the chart

- presence of Q along with R (around 60%) and high west eurasian among jats hints to transoxiana..andronovo culture... and later east scythians (massageate) as per the popular belief and supported by many historians?

Sapporo
01-17-2018, 07:22 AM
I found few sheets in another threads. I observed that :

- Though muslims jats are in west to sikh/hindu jats but they have higher ASI in comparison of sikh/hindu jat. For sikh/hindu jat it never transcends 30%. Sikh/hindu jats have lowest ASI in India. I tend to believe that muslim jats did not strictly practice endogamy in some recent past

- Caucasian % among few sikh jatts is higher than hindu jat.

- NE euro in jats ( sikh and hindu both) is highest in india and few hindu jats tops the chart

- presence of Q along with R (around 60%) and high west eurasian among jats hints to transoxiana..andronovo culture... and later east scythians (massageate) as per the popular belief and supported by many historians?

I'm guessing your looking at Harappa Gedmatch scores. I will just note the following:

1. Harappa is an outdated calculator. With the discovery of ancient genomes from Central Asia and Europe, it was left behind quite some time ago.
2. You're referring to South Indian/South Asian scores on various Gedmatch calculators and they do not correlate directly with ASI ancestry. They are components based off modern populations whom are not remotely anywhere near 100% ASI (they are usually West Eurasian or SE Asian admixed) or serve as very poor proxies for ASI (Onge or Andmanese). The closest we have to ASI estimates are calculators such as Eurogenes ANE K7 or Eurasia K9 ASI but even they are likely quite a bit off since we do not have any ancient South Asian genomes to get accurate ASI estimates.
3. I've seen 1 Haryana Jatt score almost 32% South Indian (Beniwal) and 2 Jatt Sikhs score around 31%. I'm sure we could find more samples in the low 30's if sampled enough. We also have zero full Western UP Jat samples and only 2 Rajasthani Jat samples.
4. It is likely Muslim Jatts have been less strict with endogamy after converting to Islam but there aren't enough Muslim or Hindu Jat samples to make any definitive conclusions. Only Jatt Sikhs have 15 samples on Harappa Ancestry Project and many references in Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets.
5. Muslim Jats typically trend toward the Caucasus component over the NE Euro component on admixture calculators but there are exceptions. Some slightly prefer the NE Euro component and score 11-12% on Harappa or notable amounts of Baltic/East Euro/WHG/EHG, etc.
6. Y-DNA Q is not West Eurasian. It peaks in Turkic populations from Central Asia and in Siberian populations of Eastern Russia. I would also not associate haplogroups directly to West Eurasian ancestry. Plenty of populations in South Asia and Central Asia have high amounts of R1a1a but aren't very West Eurasian in terms of autosomal DNA.

prashantvaidwan
01-17-2018, 09:54 AM
I'm guessing your looking at Harappa Gedmatch scores. I will just note the following:

1. Harappa is an outdated calculator. With the discovery of ancient genomes from Central Asia and Europe, it was left behind quite some time ago.
2. You're referring to South Indian/South Asian scores on various Gedmatch calculators and they do not correlate directly with ASI ancestry. They are components based off modern populations whom are not remotely anywhere near 100% ASI (they are usually West Eurasian or SE Asian admixed) or serve as very poor proxies for ASI (Onge or Andmanese). The closest we have to ASI estimates are calculators such as Eurogenes ANE K7 or Eurasia K9 ASI but even they are likely quite a bit off since we do not have any ancient South Asian genomes to get accurate ASI estimates.
3. I've seen 1 Haryana Jatt score almost 32% South Indian (Beniwal) and 2 Jatt Sikhs score around 31%. I'm sure we could find more samples in the low 30's if sampled enough. We also have zero full Western UP Jat samples and only 2 Rajasthani Jat samples.
4. It is likely Muslim Jatts have been less strict with endogamy after converting to Islam but there aren't enough Muslim or Hindu Jat samples to make any definitive conclusions. Only Jatt Sikhs have 15 samples on Harappa Ancestry Project and many references in Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets.
5. Muslim Jats typically trend toward the Caucasus component over the NE Euro component on admixture calculators but there are exceptions. Some slightly prefer the NE Euro component and score 11-12% on Harappa or notable amounts of Baltic/East Euro/WHG/EHG, etc.
6. Y-DNA Q is not West Eurasian. It peaks in Turkic populations from Central Asia and in Siberian populations of Eastern Russia. I would also not associate haplogroups directly to West Eurasian ancestry. Plenty of populations in South Asia and Central Asia have high amounts of R1a1a but aren't very West Eurasian in terms of autosomal DNA.

Can you please share the latest sheets of South asian people with autosomal data from latest calculators? I tried to PM you but being a new member I have several restrictions still

bmoney
01-17-2018, 11:55 AM
I'm guessing your looking at Harappa Gedmatch scores. I will just note the following:

1. Harappa is an outdated calculator. With the discovery of ancient genomes from Central Asia and Europe, it was left behind quite some time ago.
2. You're referring to South Indian/South Asian scores on various Gedmatch calculators and they do not correlate directly with ASI ancestry. They are components based off modern populations whom are not remotely anywhere near 100% ASI (they are usually West Eurasian or SE Asian admixed) or serve as very poor proxies for ASI (Onge or Andmanese). The closest we have to ASI estimates are calculators such as Eurogenes ANE K7 or Eurasia K9 ASI but even they are likely quite a bit off since we do not have any ancient South Asian genomes to get accurate ASI estimates.
3. I've seen 1 Haryana Jatt score almost 32% South Indian (Beniwal) and 2 Jatt Sikhs score around 31%. I'm sure we could find more samples in the low 30's if sampled enough. We also have zero full Western UP Jat samples and only 2 Rajasthani Jat samples.
4. It is likely Muslim Jatts have been less strict with endogamy after converting to Islam but there aren't enough Muslim or Hindu Jat samples to make any definitive conclusions. Only Jatt Sikhs have 15 samples on Harappa Ancestry Project and many references in Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets.
5. Muslim Jats typically trend toward the Caucasus component over the NE Euro component on admixture calculators but there are exceptions. Some slightly prefer the NE Euro component and score 11-12% on Harappa or notable amounts of Baltic/East Euro/WHG/EHG, etc.
6. Y-DNA Q is not West Eurasian. It peaks in Turkic populations from Central Asia and in Siberian populations of Eastern Russia. I would also not associate haplogroups directly to West Eurasian ancestry. Plenty of populations in South Asia and Central Asia have high amounts of R1a1a but aren't very West Eurasian in terms of autosomal DNA.

I'd like to add Q is mainly represented in Native American lineages which is why to me R and Q are Beringian or NE Asian - not West Eurasian in origin though R is now mainly represented in Europe and SA and absorbed a lot of West Eurasian autosomal dna in the steppe

The only unambiguously West Eurasian/European lineage is I

Sapporo
01-17-2018, 01:27 PM
Can you please share the latest sheets of South asian people with autosomal data from latest calculators? I tried to PM you but being a new member I have several restrictions still

I'm don't believe any of the newest calculators have been added to Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets (such as lukasz K47/K45 or Eurasia ASI K9). Although, McNinja's spreadsheets have Eurogenes ANE K7 but even it's outdated by now.

This is khana's spreadsheet for lukasz's calculators but they don't have all the South Asian individuals from Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets since the calculator is not available on Gedmatch and you need someone's raw data from a DNA testing company such as 23andMe, FTDNA, Ancestry.com, LivingDNA, etc. to calculate their results.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=1109543936

parasar
01-17-2018, 06:01 PM
I respectfully disagree

BMAC IMO was the source of L1c in South Asia, possibly L1a as well. There are no L1bs in the vicinity of the BMAC or in modern South Asians who have part of their ancestry from there

L1a was found in Chalcolithic Armenia whereas the BMAC is only 2300 BC at its oldest, so it couldn't have originated in the BMAC

According to phylogenetic tree L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant

L2 - L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland, Iberian Peninsula and Sardinia to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.

T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, the Nile Valley, the Arabian peninsula, Iran, as well as in some regions of Eastern India and Europe

The only scenario that accounts for these geographic distributions is a Levant/Caucasus origin for basal L and a West Asian origin for LT

Modern distribution does not mean origin, but there is L-L595 in Italy.

ADW_1981
01-17-2018, 06:18 PM
There is a very large pocket, or founder effect that is in the Pontic Greek FTDNA project. I have not seen such a large amount of YDNA L in the non-Pontic Greek region from other studies and would be curious to know the origin. The group does have a rather sporadic distribution as it has popped up in ancient Armenia and this Pontic-Greek project does have one of the larger distributions of one of the branches I have seen.

Anabasis
01-17-2018, 06:40 PM
There is a very large pocket, or founder effect that is in the Pontic Greek FTDNA project. I have not seen such a large amount of YDNA L in the non-Pontic Greek region from other studies and would be curious to know the origin. The group does have a rather sporadic distribution as it has popped up in ancient Armenia and this Pontic-Greek project does have one of the larger distributions of one of the branches I have seen.

L1b-PH8 very frequent not only along pontic greeks but also other pontic populations like hemsihns (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hemshin/default.aspx?section=yresults), pontics Turks (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/EasternBlackSeaDNA?iframe=yresults) and Lazs (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-017-1770-2), (or this link for lazs (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Chald-Laz-Colchian/default.aspx?section=yresults))

bmoney
01-17-2018, 11:43 PM
Modern distribution does not mean origin, but there is L-L595 in Italy.

True but my main point was the area of maximum diversity for L1 is Iran or the Caucasus

SC Asia + SA only have L1a (l1a1+11c)

L2 not sure if its even West Asian/Caucasian

prashantvaidwan
01-18-2018, 10:51 AM
I'm don't believe any of the newest calculators have been added to Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets (such as lukasz K47/K45 or Eurasia ASI K9). Although, McNinja's spreadsheets have Eurogenes ANE K7 but even it's outdated by now.

This is khana's spreadsheet for lukasz's calculators but they don't have all the South Asian individuals from Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets since the calculator is not available on Gedmatch and you need someone's raw data from a DNA testing company such as 23andMe, FTDNA, Ancestry.com, LivingDNA, etc. to calculate their results.



Thanks for the sheet. It has just 1 sample of a punjabi_jatt and another one is for punjabi_jat_gujjar ( not sure gujjar or jat?)...and result in that punjabi jatt sample are surprisingly distinct from others ..35% belarussians...!!

Sapporo
01-18-2018, 12:36 PM
Thanks for the sheet. It has just 1 sample of a punjabi_jatt and another one is for punjabi_jat_gujjar ( not sure gujjar or jat?)...and result in that punjabi jatt sample are surprisingly distinct from others ..35% belarussians...!!

I wouldn't pay much attention to that calculator yet. It's still in its infancy and Razib Khan isn't very experienced in developing admixture calculators yet. That Punjabi Jatt sample looks more like someone who is half white than someone fully Punjabi Jatt. By the way, I was incorrect. Dr_McNinja did add the Eurasia K9 ASI to his spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XGY-UIBC2GcUWGl1FizNvu9ofle4ZPHvfNmbrVYxGMo/edit#gid=1548493524

MonkeyDLuffy
01-18-2018, 01:09 PM
I wouldn't pay much attention to that calculator yet. It's still in its infancy and Razib Khan isn't very experienced in developing admixture calculators yet. That Punjabi Jatt sample looks more like someone who is half white than someone fully Punjabi Jatt. By the way, I was incorrect. Dr_McNinja did add the Eurasia K9 ASI to his spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XGY-UIBC2GcUWGl1FizNvu9ofle4ZPHvfNmbrVYxGMo/edit#gid=1548493524

Sap, the sheet does not load anymore. I believe you are one of the admins of the sheet, can you check it if it's public or not?

pegasus
01-18-2018, 01:22 PM
I am a Jat from delhi region. The most common L among jatts is L1c (L-M357). In india, L-M357 peaks at northwest and also found in south india (but subsequently very low). It is also found predominantly in pashtuns and kalashs. As jatt, pashtuns and kalashs are mostly good looking, tall and and strong built, I was curious to dig a bit more about y haplogroup and physical appearance connection. I am a naive in this field and have a limited knowledge.

Thats very questionable and open to different interpretation. From what I have researched and learned through osmosis via friends, there is considerable variation among Jats. The Haryana/Rajastan and I am assuming the Delhi Jats form one cluster and the Sikh Jats another. In terms of phenotypes there is wide range but, IMO the Haryana/Rajastan Jats looked like other Northern Indians and many of them in fact looked like urban Southern Indians. From what I have seen on forums for years those praising height, looks and etc of Jats are usually just the Jats themselves.

pegasus
01-18-2018, 01:27 PM
I'd like to add Q is mainly represented in Native American lineages which is why to me R and Q are Beringian or NE Asian - not West Eurasian in origin though R is now mainly represented in Europe and SA and absorbed a lot of West Eurasian autosomal dna in the steppe

The only unambiguously West Eurasian/European lineage is I

Yup, Kristina mentioned this well in the South Asia thread. Yes because WHG are the only true natives of Europe.

pegasus
01-18-2018, 01:39 PM
I respectfully disagree

BMAC IMO was the source of L1c in South Asia, possibly L1a as well. There are no L1bs in the vicinity of the BMAC or in modern South Asians who have part of their ancestry from there

L1a was found in Chalcolithic Armenia whereas the BMAC is only 2300 BC at its oldest, so it couldn't have originated in the BMAC

According to phylogenetic tree L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant

L2 - L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland, Iberian Peninsula and Sardinia to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.

T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, the Nile Valley, the Arabian peninsula, Iran, as well as in some regions of Eastern India and Europe

The only scenario that accounts for these geographic distributions is a Levant/Caucasus origin for basal L and a West Asian origin for LT

IMO likely its from a Basal population in Southern Iran, the incoming Malta /Paleo Siberian people in SC Asia were R*, which lead to R2 which you see in Iran_N related populations. J and L are from Basal Eurasians living in Southern Iran or nearby regions in Western Asia.

khanabadoshi
01-18-2018, 02:11 PM
I'm don't believe any of the newest calculators have been added to Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets (such as lukasz K47/K45 or Eurasia ASI K9). Although, McNinja's spreadsheets have Eurogenes ANE K7 but even it's outdated by now.

This is khana's spreadsheet for lukasz's calculators but they don't have all the South Asian individuals from Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets since the calculator is not available on Gedmatch and you need someone's raw data from a DNA testing company such as 23andMe, FTDNA, Ancestry.com, LivingDNA, etc. to calculate their results.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/124F0p1foJpnSt2DJcmo_cgxhq1sht34WLErxU9TJuRw/edit#gid=1109543936

I am adding a bunch of South Asians to K47 now.

If you guys have a list of older calculators you want me to make a complete list of results, let me know, so I can keep them in mind. I'm going to e-mail poi the HGDP samples so he can help me run them on K47.

Sapporo
01-18-2018, 03:18 PM
Sap, the sheet does not load anymore. I believe you are one of the admins of the sheet, can you check it if it's public or not?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XGY-UIBC2GcUWGl1FizNvu9ofle4ZPHvfNmbrVYxGMo/edit?usp=sharing

Does this link work?

prashantvaidwan
01-19-2018, 02:07 PM
Thats very questionable and open to different interpretation. From what I have researched and learned through osmosis via friends, there is considerable variation among Jats. The Haryana/Rajastan and I am assuming the Delhi Jats form one cluster and the Sikh Jats another. In terms of phenotypes there is wide range but, IMO the Haryana/Rajastan Jats looked like other Northern Indians and many of them in fact looked like urban Southern Indians. From what I have seen on forums for years those praising height, looks and etc of Jats are usually just the Jats themselves.

I don't think you have seen enough jats. Both sikh and hindu jat are from the same stock..most of their clans overlap..and few clans are exclusive in each group. regarding their looks and heights, I agree that their is wide range of phenotypes in them...same as in other north indians .. but they definitely excel from their surrounding population on an average in look, height and strength. You can see examples in sport..how first sikh jatts and now haryana jatts dominated wrestling, kabaddi, boxing etc.. Even recently in doklam , Indian govt posted jat soldiers due to their height. Though we don't have enough samples to claim and I am naive on the subject,..still when I see the jatts autosomal on various calculator they are a little distinct from others.

By the way, I don't intend to open a pandora box and derail the thread.....and I came out of that strong "jatt superiorty complex" many months before :)

bmoney
01-19-2018, 02:12 PM
I don't think you have seen enough jats. Both sikh and hindu jat are from the same stock..most of their clans overlap..and few clans are exclusive in each group. regarding their looks and heights, I agree that their is wide range of phenotypes in them...same as in other north indians .. but they definitely excel from their surrounding population on an average in look, height and strength. You can see examples in sport..how first sikh jatts and now haryana jatts dominated wrestling, kabaddi, boxing etc.. Even recently in doklam , Indian govt posted jat soldiers due to their height. Though we don't have enough samples to claim and I am naive on the subject,..still when I see the jatts autosomal on various calculator they are a little distinct from others.

By the way, I don't intend to open a pandora box and derail the thread.....and I came out of that strong "jatt superiorty complex" many months before :)

Vijender Singh bro - makes me proud

Im just not sure UP jaats are the same stock as Haryana Jats - lets see your results

Virender Sehwag was a gun batsman - UP jaat from Delhi I think he was, can you confirm?

pegasus
01-20-2018, 08:08 AM
I don't think you have seen enough jats. Both sikh and hindu jat are from the same stock..most of their clans overlap..and few clans are exclusive in each group. regarding their looks and heights, I agree that their is wide range of phenotypes in them...same as in other north indians .. but they definitely excel from their surrounding population on an average in look, height and strength. You can see examples in sport..how first sikh jatts and now haryana jatts dominated wrestling, kabaddi, boxing etc.. Even recently in doklam , Indian govt posted jat soldiers due to their height. Though we don't have enough samples to claim and I am naive on the subject,..still when I see the jatts autosomal on various calculator they are a little distinct from others.

By the way, I don't intend to open a pandora box and derail the thread.....and I came out of that strong "jatt superiorty complex" many months before :)

NO denying Jatts on average are taller but NW Indians generally do tend to skew taller, but looks ?? Sorry to say but a lot of them don't look any different than their neighbors and many DO look like South Indians in features and skin tone, Monkey even mentioned it and he is familiar with that region more than anyone on the board, so his observations match mine. There have been many misinformed Jat posters on anthro forums, often citing jatland as a viable source ( 99% of it is BS) .
Jat Sikhs form what I have seen do look somewhat different from the Haryana Jats, and markedly more Caucasus and Iran_N shifted on average, also they show more diversity of Y and Mtdnas , Haryana Jat seem to have serious founder effects , dominated by R1a and Mtna M. The Jat Sikhs tend to show more Iran_N related Y dna /Mtdna and interestingly you see Steppe Mtdna in some of them. I would say the enthogensis of most NW Indians follows the similar path but later ridiculous founder effects and tribalism facilitated by caste in Antiquity caused an interesting range of variation but as well as genetic diseases.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/17/health/india-south-asia-castes-genetics-diseases.html

prashantvaidwan
01-22-2018, 11:12 AM
NO denying Jatts on average are taller but NW Indians generally do tend to skew taller, but looks ?? Sorry to say but a lot of them don't look any different than their neighbors and many DO look like South Indians in features and skin tone, Monkey even mentioned it and he is familiar with that region more than anyone on the board, so his observations match mine. There have been many misinformed Jat posters on anthro forums, often citing jatland as a viable source ( 99% of it is BS) .
Jat Sikhs form what I have seen do look somewhat different from the Haryana Jats, and markedly more Caucasus and Iran_N shifted on average, also they show more diversity of Y and Mtdnas , Haryana Jat seem to have serious founder effects , dominated by R1a and Mtna M. The Jat Sikhs tend to show more Iran_N related Y dna /Mtdna and interestingly you see Steppe Mtdna in some of them. I would say the enthogensis of most NW Indians follows the similar path but later ridiculous founder effects and tribalism facilitated by caste in Antiquity caused an interesting range of variation but as well as genetic diseases.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/17/health/india-south-asia-castes-genetics-diseases.html

Do you have any data to back your wording about Haryanvi jats? founder effect in Haryana jats??..any detailed study about Y haplogroup and mtDna of haryanvi jats and their autosomal data?....have you seen David G mahal dna study in jats?... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/

founder effect are in Brahmins of India......see the data for Bengal Brahmins....

prashantvaidwan
01-22-2018, 11:17 AM
jats don't marry in their own clan and mother clan....and earlier they used to entertain grand mother clan also...genetic disease among jats..really? I guess you are seriously misinformed, not me and word of anyone is not gospel truth...and name any rural community in india which fair better than jats (Haryanvi) in dna, looks , height and strength?

pegasus
01-23-2018, 01:02 AM
jats don't marry in their own clan and mother clan....and earlier they used to entertain grand mother clan also...genetic disease among jats..really? I guess you are seriously misinformed, not me and word of anyone is not gospel truth...and name any rural community in india which fair better than jats (Haryanvi) in dna, looks , height and strength?

Looks , height and strength ? You are sounding like a beauty pageant judge. Yes, Haryana jats definitely will suffer from genetic diseases, any group which practices a ridiculous level of endogamy always experiences genetic diseases , this is understood. You keep repeating this bizarre trope of height and looks. The generally taller height among NW Indians is likely due to higher dairy and whole wheat consumption. Groups of Ashkenazi Jews have very high IQ's but are riddled with many genetic diseases. I think you are triggered and vexed because I actually told facts that your uncle's uncles forgot to mention. I remember years ago another Jat member an another anthro forum, was doing the same thing going off on looks of people in his community and when he actually posted them most of the members thought they looked like other Indians or even Romas and when he posted some women from the community most members thought they were rather butch, but it just goes to show how beauty standards vary. Also most parts of India as far as I know are not conducive to wide scale farming, many areas are too arid or too sub tropical for proper farming . You do realize heights have increased generally in many areas because of dietary changes, the Japanese are a relatively modern example of that.

You still don't get it, endogamy means marrying outside the group or caste lol

prashantvaidwan
01-23-2018, 02:11 AM
Looks , height and strength ? You are sounding like a beauty pageant judge. Yes, Haryana jats definitely will suffer from genetic diseases, any group which practices a ridiculous level of endogamy always experiences genetic diseases , this is understood. You keep repeating this bizarre trope of height and looks. The generally taller height among NW Indians is likely due to higher dairy and whole wheat consumption. Groups of Ashkenazi Jews have very high IQ's but are riddled with many genetic diseases. I think you are triggered and vexed because I actually told facts that your uncle's uncles forgot to mention. I remember years ago another Jat member an another anthro forum, was doing the same thing going off on looks of people in his community and when he actually posted them most of the members thought they looked like other Indians or even Romas and when he posted some women from the community most members thought they were rather butch, but it just goes to show how beauty standards vary. Also most parts of India as far as I know are not conducive to wide scale farming, many areas are too arid or too sub tropical for proper farming . You do realize heights have increased generally in many areas because of dietary changes, the Japanese are a relatively modern example of that.

You still don't get it, endogamy means marrying outside the group or caste lol

You are just talking much without any base. Can you please show me the data for founder effect in Haryanvi jats and less variation in their Y haplo and mtdna...I posted above for david g mahal study about y haplo of jats...sample size is more than 300 and it includes hindu and Sikh jat (though we don't know the exact numbers of hindu and Sikh jat but it says that muslim jat are under represented) . Please post any detailed study. I am new in the field and may be I am misinterpreting some data. From some XLS here, I see high baloch ,high NE euro and low ASI in Haryanvi jats...though caucasian is a bit low in comparison of Punjabi people but it is more than other north Indians. There were 3-4 sample of Haryana jatt and one "beniwal jat" mtdna was HV (not indigenous mtdan, I guess) Haryanvi jat data were perfectly matching with some jatt Sikh also. May be I am missing something....please enlighten me and post some data for me...I am ready to learn!

Jats have more than 4000 clans and they have their own norms about marriage. They don't marry in four close clans.. (father, mother, grandmother .. )..don't marry in the same village and neighboring villages....Most of the other hindus can marry in the same village and in same clan........ Go to south and see how the hindus marry with their first cousins..see the parsis..and in Punjab see the aroras/khatris...they are tend to genetic disease not jats imo....you need to learn more about jat marriage norms..

I have also seen the old threads and seen the frustration of the self declared Aryan people....though their is nothing Aryan in them ..born from the mouth of brahma, fireborn, suryavanshi , chandravansi...though in reality , majority of them are austro Asiatic people or just the founder effect...weak ..short in stature..and absurd in looks.
and this is how they kill their frustrations

- Jats have high NE euro and good looks.. it is british effect...something else...?
- jats have all Y haplo of west and north..they are mixed people
- jats have hardly indigenous y haplo as , H, F..they are malechhas from foreign land...hmmm..
- jats have high L..they are Dravidian people...
- jats have high R..founder effect....
- Sikh jatt and hindu jatt are different
- Jats are taller and strong in physique. because they use dairy.....hahahaha..and others are dying of hunger
- Jats have lowest ASI ..but they look south indian....huaaah......

Anabasis
01-24-2018, 05:46 AM
ist it off topic?

Searcher
01-25-2018, 07:54 PM
ist it off topic?

Worse. It's OWD.

pegasus
01-26-2018, 11:32 AM
You are just talking much without any base. Can you please show me the data for founder effect in Haryanvi jats and less variation in their Y haplo and mtdna...I posted above for david g mahal study about y haplo of jats...sample size is more than 300 and it includes hindu and Sikh jat (though we don't know the exact numbers of hindu and Sikh jat but it says that muslim jat are under represented) . Please post any detailed study. I am new in the field and may be I am misinterpreting some data. From some XLS here, I see high baloch ,high NE euro and low ASI in Haryanvi jats...though caucasian is a bit low in comparison of Punjabi people but it is more than other north Indians. There were 3-4 sample of Haryana jatt and one "beniwal jat" mtdna was HV (not indigenous mtdan, I guess) Haryanvi jat data were perfectly matching with some jatt Sikh also. May be I am missing something....please enlighten me and post some data for me...I am ready to learn!

Jats have more than 4000 clans and they have their own norms about marriage. They don't marry in four close clans.. (father, mother, grandmother .. )..don't marry in the same village and neighboring villages....Most of the other hindus can marry in the same village and in same clan........ Go to south and see how the hindus marry with their first cousins..see the parsis..and in Punjab see the aroras/khatris...they are tend to genetic disease not jats imo....you need to learn more about jat marriage norms..

I have also seen the old threads and seen the frustration of the self declared Aryan people....though their is nothing Aryan in them ..born from the mouth of brahma, fireborn, suryavanshi , chandravansi...though in reality , majority of them are austro Asiatic people or just the founder effect...weak ..short in stature..and absurd in looks.
and this is how they kill their frustrations

- Jats have high NE euro and good looks.. it is british effect...something else...?
- jats have all Y haplo of west and north..they are mixed people
- jats have hardly indigenous y haplo as , H, F..they are malechhas from foreign land...hmmm..
- jats have high L..they are Dravidian people...
- jats have high R..founder effect....
- Sikh jatt and hindu jatt are different
- Jats are taller and strong in physique. because they use dairy.....hahahaha..and others are dying of hunger
- Jats have lowest ASI ..but they look south indian....huaaah......

I am not going to bother responding to that nonsense you wrote but you clearly are off the deep end. Get well soon.

HanniBaal
02-20-2018, 08:52 PM
My Y haplogroup is L-M27 (L1a1) and my research indicates that it existed in Caucasus region even 6000-7000 years ago.
I am really curious about when it really came to Levant. I mostly suspect that it was Hattians or may be Hittites or Armenians who carried L-M27 to Levant, but I could not find anything about that.

Is there any scientific research, any kind of information, or speculation about that?
Is there anyone who has opinion related with that?

bmoney
02-20-2018, 11:36 PM
My Y haplogroup is L-M27 (L1a1) and my research indicates that it existed in Caucasus region even 6000-7000 years ago.
I am really curious about when it really came to Levant. I mostly suspect that it was Hattians or may be Hittites or Armenians who carried L-M27 to Levant, but I could not find anything about that.

Is there any scientific research, any kind of information, or speculation about that?
Is there anyone who has opinion related with that?

Welcome to the forum - im quite surprised, Turkish L is usually L1b, though you are Alawi so maybe it was founder effected. Do you know how common this haplogroup is in your community?

South Asian L1a1 likely diverged from your sub-clade a long long time ago (4000 years+) - South Asia only has the L1a type - L1a1 M27 and L1a2 M357 suggesting L1a went South and East from the Caucasus, both clades are also found in modern Iran. Maybe yours was from a western migration.

It terms of ancient pops, based on my observations its mostly linked to Iran_Neolithic pops. In terms of historical samples L1a1 was found in Areni-1 samples (6000 years ago) and an elite Hun from Hungary (1500 years ago) and the Chinese Muslim navigator Zheng He (600 years ago) likely via an Iranian paternal line

I've made a thread for L1 here with info: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12602-Master-L1-thread

but in terms of Turkish specific origins, I have no idea @Anabasis can help

From wiki (most likely L1b and L1a2 if Chechen origin):

Middle East and Anatolia
L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Raqqa, a northern Syrian city whose previous inhabitants were wiped out by Mongol genocides and repopulated in recent times by local Bedouin populations and Chechen war refugees from Russia (El-Sibai 2009). In a small sample of Israeli Druze haplogroup L-M20 was found in 7 out of 20 (35%). However, studies done on bigger samples showed that L-M20 averages 5% in Israeli Druze,[Footnote 2] 8% in Lebanese Druze,[Footnote 3] and it was not found in a sample of 59 Syrian Druze. Haplogroup L-M20 has been found in 2.0% (1/50) (Wells 2001) to 5.25% (48/914) of Lebanese (Zalloua 2008).

HanniBaal
02-21-2018, 03:38 AM
Welcome to the forum - im quite surprised, Turkish L is usually L1b, though you are Alawi so maybe it was founder effected. Do you know how common this haplogroup is in your community?

South Asian L1a1 likely diverged from your sub-clade a long long time ago (4000 years+) - South Asia only has the L1a type - L1a1 M27 and L1a2 M357 suggesting L1a went South and East from the Caucasus, both clades are also found in modern Iran. Maybe yours was from a western migration.

It terms of ancient pops, based on my observations its mostly linked to Iran_Neolithic pops. In terms of historical samples L1a1 was found in Areni-1 samples (6000 years ago) and an elite Hun from Hungary (1500 years ago) and the Chinese Muslim navigator Zheng He (600 years ago) likely via an Iranian paternal line

I've made a thread for L1 here with info: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12602-Master-L1-thread

but in terms of Turkish specific origins, I have no idea @Anabasis can help

From wiki (most likely L1b and L1a2 if Chechen origin):

Middle East and Anatolia
L-M20 was found in 51% of Syrians from Raqqa, a northern Syrian city whose previous inhabitants were wiped out by Mongol genocides and repopulated in recent times by local Bedouin populations and Chechen war refugees from Russia (El-Sibai 2009). In a small sample of Israeli Druze haplogroup L-M20 was found in 7 out of 20 (35%). However, studies done on bigger samples showed that L-M20 averages 5% in Israeli Druze,[Footnote 2] 8% in Lebanese Druze,[Footnote 3] and it was not found in a sample of 59 Syrian Druze. Haplogroup L-M20 has been found in 2.0% (1/50) (Wells 2001) to 5.25% (48/914) of Lebanese (Zalloua 2008).

Thanks for reply. I thought the Caucasus origin possibility because of below information


Seems L1a1 is most common in South Asia, particularly Western India and Southern Pakistan; but it is also found in Southern Iran -- so it's possible.


Y-DNA haplogroup L is found at low frequencies in the Middle East and Europe as paragroup L-M317 (L1b*, originally L2*), subgroup L-M349 (L1b1, originally L2a) and subgroup L-L595 (L2), and at significant frequencies in South Asia as subgroups L-M27 (L1a1, formerly L1a and originally L1) and L-M357 (L1a2, formerly L1c and originally L3).

(http://isogg.org/tree/2015/ISOGG_HapgrpL15.html)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20#L1a1_.28M27.29)


There is a blog on this, I don't know how accurate it is, but it's interesting:

Pakistan and India - Present Day Home of L1a1 and L1a2L1a splits again into two sub clades. The split occurred around 17,400 years ago. L1a1, as defined by SNP M27 (on older nomenclature as still used by 23andMe, this was formerly L1*) is mainly found in India, particularly South West India, and in Sri Lanka, where it has been projected onto 15% of men. It is however, also found outside of India, in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan, and Iran. This is perhaps the most populous modern day L sub clade, found in 14.5% of Indian males.
L1a and L1a1 (L-M27) at Birds Eye Cave, Armenia 6161 years before present.Ancient Y DNA from the Copper Age has recently emerged from this location, and included L1a, and L1a1. This might suggest, that although very successful today in India and Pakistan, that it has a Western Asian origin.
L1a2 as defined by SNP M357 (on older nomenclature as still used by 23andMe, this was formerly L3*). This sub clade is mainly found in Pakistan, but also Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, The Chechen Republic, Tajikistan, India, and Afghanistan.
So, the L1a sub clades - spreading down into Southern Asia, and accounting for potentially millions of Y Men there. Far more than any other branches of Y Haplogroup L. However, Southern Asia is unlikely to be the origin of L. That origin is more likely, as stated earlier, to be the place with the most diversity in branches. That points more towards again towards Western Asia. It's just that ancient carriers of L, appear to have been particularly successful in Southern Asia, and to have fathered more sons there.

(http://paulbrooker.posthaven.com/y-haplogroup-l-not-the-r1b-sub-clade-or-mtdna-resource-page)






L-M27 appears to be older in Caucasus, than India. If that is true, there is a high chance it spread with Hattians or Hittites towards Anatolia, Levant, and Cyprus. Because it also exist in Cyprus with similar percentages. Persians captured Cyprus, but I don't think that Persians settled in Cyprus.

I do not have too much information about the topic and related with the haplogroup, but what I think I understood is there is a chance of it being originated in Caucasus and spread from there.

Lupus82
02-21-2018, 04:46 AM
Thanks for reply. I thought the Caucasus origin possibility because of below information


L-M27 appears to be older in Caucasus, than India. If that is true, there is a high chance it spread with Hattians or Hittites towards Anatolia, Levant, and Cyprus. Because it also exist in Cyprus with similar percentages. Persians captured Cyprus, but I don't think that Persians settled in Cyprus.

I do not have too much information about the topic and related with the haplogroup, but what I think I understood is there is a chance of it being originated in Caucasus and spread from there.

It might be older than Hittites or Hattians. There is a particular pre-historic culture around Eastern Anatolia/Caucasus. It is called Kura-Araxes culture. It has expanded Westward into Anatolia and Levant.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-Kura-Araxes-cultural-tradition_fig1_278794773

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E2%80%93Araxes_culture

bmoney
02-21-2018, 06:41 AM
Thanks for reply. I thought the Caucasus origin possibility because of below information


L-M27 appears to be older in Caucasus, than India. If that is true, there is a high chance it spread with Hattians or Hittites towards Anatolia, Levant, and Cyprus. Because it also exist in Cyprus with similar percentages. Persians captured Cyprus, but I don't think that Persians settled in Cyprus.

I do not have too much information about the topic and related with the haplogroup, but what I think I understood is there is a chance of it being originated in Caucasus and spread from there.

Its definitely of Caucasus or Iranian origin, never suggested that it was Indian. I just wasn't aware the M27 mutation went further west than Iran

bmoney
02-21-2018, 06:45 AM
It might be older than that. There is a particular pre-historic culture around Eastern Anatolia/Caucasus. It is called Kura-Araxes culture. It has expanded Westward into Anatolia and Levant.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-Kura-Araxes-cultural-tradition_fig1_278794773

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E2%80%93Araxes_culture

This paper suggests the culture represented by L1a1 Areni-1 could be one of the predecessors of the Kura-Araxes culture:

The beginning of the Bronze Age in the southern Caucasus has been thought to coincide with the
appearance of the Kura Araxes (KA) culture around 3500 CAL B.C. KA artifacts are known not only from the
southern Caucasus but also from sites in Anatolia, Iran, and the Levant. Recent discoveries from Areni-1
Cave in the Vayots Dzor region of Armenia demonstrate that the origin of the distinctive KA artifact
assemblage lies in the Late Chalcolithic of the late 5th to early 4th millennia B.C. The cave contains rich
assemblages of desiccated botanical remains that allow the site to be precisely dated and that
demonstrate that its inhabitants exploited a wide variety of domesticated and wild plants. It would appear
that from 4000 CAL B.C. onwards, people used Areni-1 Cave for habitation and for keeping goats, storing
plant foods, and ritual purposes; unusual for this time period are ceramic vessels containing the skulls of
children.

http://iae.am/sites/default/files/database/2012_Wilkinson%20et%20al_Areni-1_JFA_37-1.pdf

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-21-2018, 01:27 PM
yes NE euro %ages are quite elevated in Jatts particularly Haryana Jatts compared to surrounding pops according to the reference data. NE Euro peaks in the Baltic states not the Balkans, which is why its named NE Euro. But NE Euro is a steppe Indo-Aryan marker and would better fit R1a1a than L. L would better fit 'Baloch' at the group level

L1c would not correlate with ancestry at the individual level except to say the person has at least a drop of Gedrosian/BMAC blood. For example even if you're an H Punjabi you'd be more genetically Punjabi than a south Indian H. So if you're extrapolating the data to yourself, you will definitely have higher South Indian than a Kalash even if you both share the same y-dna

At a group level - To groups which have elevated L1c %ages like Jatts and the Kalash - it does loosely correspond to high Baloch/Hindu-Kush/Gedrosian component. In eastern and southern India hap L is quite rare and Gedrosian levels are generally lower.

The Baluch have the highest Gedrosian of all and L1a is their most common haplogroup if i recall correctly

Also are you a Jaat from Western UP? your scores would differ to other Jatts if that is the case, will be interesting to see your results

My understanding is that ASI is mostly H y-haplogroup (australoid people) which is native of India and ANI is L, J, R, G, Q (central asian/siberian etc) thanks in advance if I can have your insight

Mostly right - Id add F and C to H as major ASI haplogroup lineages, and O in the Eastern part of India

Also ANI isnt a population, its a mix of both Neolithic Farmers from Iran and Steppe people who are quite different to each other

Replying to an old post, but Reich et al. 2009 specifically included Y-DNA Haplogroups F, H1, H2, L, O*, O2, O3, R*, R2 as ASI but C, G, J, K, K*, P, R1 as ANI. According to that paper ASI is mostly found in the subcontinent but rarely outside. Eastern Eurasian mtDNA like Bs, Fs were ANI while typically West Eurasian mtDNA I was ASI. It also included mtDNA M30 and M39 as ANI. I can take O2(The Austric one) as ASI since Austro-Asiatics are believed to be one of the oldest inhabitants of the subcontinent but not the Sino-Tibetan O3. It would have been better if it was categorized with 'unclassified' B, D and E since it is a clear immigrant gourp. Although very high among Austro-asiatics, neither Austro-asiatic speakers nor O is restricted to a single region. Small percentages of O have been found in castes(including Brahmins) and Muslims in a much broader range from Delhi all the way Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh. It is very likely O2 range included the Gangetic plains, Vindhya and Northern Deccan in ancient times. Although STRs are not favoured anymore but according to Sengupta et al 2006, highest STR variation for R2 seem to be in eastern India, L around Maharashtra and H in East, South and Kashmir.

HanniBaal
02-21-2018, 03:56 PM
It might be older than Hittites or Hattians. There is a particular pre-historic culture around Eastern Anatolia/Caucasus. It is called Kura-Araxes culture. It has expanded Westward into Anatolia and Levant.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-Kura-Araxes-cultural-tradition_fig1_278794773

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E2%80%93Araxes_culture




This paper suggests the culture represented by L1a1 Areni-1 could be one of the predecessors of the Kura-Araxes culture:

The beginning of the Bronze Age in the southern Caucasus has been thought to coincide with the
appearance of the Kura Araxes (KA) culture around 3500 CAL B.C. KA artifacts are known not only from the
southern Caucasus but also from sites in Anatolia, Iran, and the Levant. Recent discoveries from Areni-1
Cave in the Vayots Dzor region of Armenia demonstrate that the origin of the distinctive KA artifact
assemblage lies in the Late Chalcolithic of the late 5th to early 4th millennia B.C. The cave contains rich
assemblages of desiccated botanical remains that allow the site to be precisely dated and that
demonstrate that its inhabitants exploited a wide variety of domesticated and wild plants. It would appear
that from 4000 CAL B.C. onwards, people used Areni-1 Cave for habitation and for keeping goats, storing
plant foods, and ritual purposes; unusual for this time period are ceramic vessels containing the skulls of
children.

http://iae.am/sites/default/files/database/2012_Wilkinson%20et%20al_Areni-1_JFA_37-1.pdf

That is awesome. Actually I have learned something really cool and it might really answer my question. I will definitely search more about Kura–Araxes culture. Thank you Lupus82 and bmoney.

Sapporo
02-21-2018, 08:15 PM
Replying to an old post, but Reich et al. 2009 specifically included Y-DNA Haplogroups F, H1, H2, L, O*, O2, O3, R*, R2 as ASI but C, G, J, K, K*, P, R1 as ANI. According to that paper ASI is mostly found in the subcontinent but rarely outside. Eastern Eurasian mtDNA like Bs, Fs were ANI while typically West Eurasian mtDNA I was ASI. It also included mtDNA M30 and M39 as ANI. I can take O2(The Austric one) as ASI since Austro-Asiatics are believed to be one of the oldest inhabitants of the subcontinent but not the Sino-Tibetan O3. It would have been better if it was categorized with 'unclassified' B, D and E since it is a clear immigrant gourp. Although very high among Austro-asiatics, neither Austro-asiatic speakers nor O is restricted to a single region. Small percentages of O have been found in castes(including Brahmins) and Muslims in a much broader range from Delhi all the way Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh. It is very likely O2 range included the Gangetic plains, Vindhya and Northern Deccan in ancient times. Although STRs are not favoured anymore but according to Sengupta et al 2006, highest STR variation for R2 seem to be in eastern India, L around Maharashtra and H in East, South and Kashmir.

The Reich paper is extremely outdated at this point. It also made some assumptions that were later found to be either inaccurate/misplaced with Moorjani's paper and the discovery of ancient genomes. R* and R2 seem to be of Central Asian origin and L most certainly didn't originate in South Asia. Finally, there is zero chance that C or P are ANI related. C is most prominent among East Eurasian, Oceanian and Amerindian populations while P is prominent in South East Asia (however, I believe Q & R branched off from P and they are Central Asian in origin).

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-24-2018, 07:38 PM
The Reich paper is extremely outdated at this point. It also made some assumptions that were later found to be either inaccurate/misplaced with Moorjani's paper and the discovery of ancient genomes. R* and R2 seem to be of Central Asian origin and L most certainly didn't originate in South Asia. Finally, there is zero chance that C or P are ANI related. C is most prominent among East Eurasian, Oceanian and Amerindian populations while P is prominent in South East Asia.

What you said is rather confusing. You said C and P are not ANI since they have high frequency in "East Eurasian, Oceanian, Southeast Asian and Amerindian" populations. I don't think most papers consider frequency as a proxy for origin. Last time I checked very high frequencies of R1b, N and Q occur in regions thousands of kilometres away from their presently proposed place of origin. Now, YDNA L and R2 have highest frequency in South Asia which by your logic makes them look ASI. Since ASI is supposedly a population which is distinct from other groups it is more likely so. Moreover C is typical of Central Asian populations, a group which ANI is related to in both Reich and Moorjani paper and both of them removed Australian Aborigines and Great Andamanese from the cline since these had high C. That's probably the reason why Reich added C in ANI while R2 and L as ASI

As far as origin is concerned, every major Indian Y-DNA has papers supporting both Indigenous and Foreign origin except J2 and that includes R1a, R2, H, L as well as C, F, etc . Y-DNA L has TMRCA 23200 ybp. How it is possible to call it ANI or ASI if ANI-ASI mixing occurred only 4600 ybp according to Moorjani paper. There are many papers which support L's origin in the sub-continent.


however, I believe Q & R branched off from P and they are Central Asian in origin). Now Q and R are ANE and most likely originated in Siberia or father east. P might as well be. What do you think of K2b. Reich called K as ANI.

The best thing that Moorjani paper did was not to relate any Haplogroup to ANI or ASI. It was logical since ANI and ASI are mostly hypothetical since I believe no Ancient DNA exists of them like in the case of WHG, SHG, ANE, etc. The paper talked about mtDNA U2, U7 and W are shared between Indians and West Eurasians also mentioned that they had diverged about 30,000–40,000 years BP much before the supposed mixing of ANI-ASI. However like the older paper it suffered from lop-sidedness. ie. how logical is to compare Kash Pandit to Santhals of Jharkhand. Same caste to caste comparision will be much better.

bmoney
02-25-2018, 04:55 AM
What you said is rather confusing. You said C and P are not ANI since they have high frequency in "East Eurasian, Oceanian, Southeast Asian and Amerindian" populations. I don't think most papers consider frequency as a proxy for origin. Last time I checked very high frequencies of R1b, N and Q occur in regions thousands of kilometres away from their presently proposed place of origin. Now, YDNA L and R2 have highest frequency in South Asia which by your logic makes them look ASI. Since ASI is supposedly a population which is distinct from other groups it is more likely so. Moreover C is typical of Central Asian populations, a group which ANI is related to in both Reich and Moorjani paper and both of them removed Australian Aborigines and Great Andamanese from the cline since these had high C. That's probably the reason why Reich added C in ANI while R2 and L as ASI

As far as origin is concerned, every major Indian Y-DNA has papers supporting both Indigenous and Foreign origin except J2 and that includes R1a, R2, H, L as well as C, F, etc . Y-DNA L has TMRCA 23200 ybp. How it is possible to call it ANI or ASI if ANI-ASI mixing occurred only 4600 ybp according to Moorjani paper. There are many papers which support L's origin in the sub-continent.

Now Q and R are ANE and most likely originated in Siberia or father east. P might as well be. What do you think of K2b. Reich called K as ANI.

The best thing that Moorjani paper did was not to relate any Haplogroup to ANI or ASI. It was logical since ANI and ASI are mostly hypothetical since I believe no Ancient DNA exists of them like in the case of WHG, SHG, ANE, etc. The paper talked about mtDNA U2, U7 and W are shared between Indians and West Eurasians also mentioned that they had diverged about 30,000–40,000 years BP much before the supposed mixing of ANI-ASI. However like the older paper it suffered from lop-sidedness. ie. how logical is to compare Kash Pandit to Santhals of Jharkhand. Same caste to caste comparision will be much better.

There is absolutely no chance that L originated in India

The earliest L found is the Areni-1 man, who has no Palaeolithic Indian dna. Also the highest frequency of L in South Asia is in the Baloch, who have less than 5% ASI levels.

South Asia only has one clade of L - L1a. Iran has all of them except the European branch L2.

C could be Turkic/Central Asian or paleolithic in India, you need to do a deep-Y to find out, but safe to say C found in tribals is Palaeolithic Indian. F and H are Palaeolithic Indian

R2 is ANE related, not sure when it arrived in SA. It could have come with Iran_N as J, G, R2 and L in South India are correlated - so all of these are ANI related IMO in addition to Indo-Aryan migration related R1a

P is SE Asian, we have a Filipino basal P member on the forum

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-25-2018, 06:36 PM
There is absolutely no chance that L originated in India
The earliest L found is the Areni-1 man, who has no Palaeolithic Indian dna. Also the highest frequency of L in South Asia is in the Baloch, who have less than 5% ASI levels.

Isn't the word "Absolute" rather inappropriate when it comes genetics which depends on hypotheses a lot? Only haplogroups can be kind of absolute even then nomenclatures change and testing labs do mess up.
Areni-1 people existed 6000 BP and basal L supposedly formed 42600 yr BP. There could be anything in between. Don't we need older samples?


C could be Turkic/Central Asian or paleolithic in India, you need to do a deep-Y to find out, but safe to say C found in tribals is Palaeolithic Indian.
C has been found in Palaeolithic(35000 yr BP) and Neolithic Europeans alongwith mtDNA M sometimes. Does this mean Haplogroup C is European? Do modern Europeans with C have Indian like admixture? I wonder. If that's a must than the old C3(Turco-Mongol) one can be called ANI.


F and H are Palaeolithic Indian
How do you explain the H in Europeans. They've been present in Neolithic West Asian and European samples. And I don't believe that Modern Europeans with H would show any ASI type admixture. H's ancestral clade HIJK has been found in Palaeolithic(15000) Belgium as well. The European P96 is also of the same age as the Indian one at 46,900 years. Who knows if basal H originated in Middle East and can be called ANI.


R2 is ANE related, not sure when it arrived in SA. It could have come with Iran_N as J, G, R2 and L in South India are correlated - so all of these are ANI related IMO
Actually, I was astonished to see R2 and R* in Reich et al classified as ASI as R1 is ANI in that paper. Before this ANE paper came out, I always felt R lineages are more western East Eurasian/Siberian due to their close position in the phylo tree to Q, P as well as NO


in addition to Indo-Aryan migration related R1a
I don't think R1a only came from Indo-Aryans. It might have come from Indo-Scythians as well as others. Some people in R1a talk page Wikipedia argued that some R1a may be related to Dravidian migrations from Iran. Secondly, some R2, J2, G might have been due to Indo-Aryan migrations similar to some Js in Europe might be from steppe.


I just don't believe that Basal and very old Clades be associated with absolutely Hypothetical constructs like ASI ANI which supposedly mixed only 4600 yrs ago. Unless supported by Ancient DNA, I don't find a reason to. Mal'ta 1 was an awesome find since it correlates well with the TMRCA of basal R lineages and the origin place of R can be more accurately guessed.

Sapporo
03-03-2018, 01:36 AM
What you said is rather confusing. You said C and P are not ANI since they have high frequency in "East Eurasian, Oceanian, Southeast Asian and Amerindian" populations. I don't think most papers consider frequency as a proxy for origin. Last time I checked very high frequencies of R1b, N and Q occur in regions thousands of kilometres away from their presently proposed place of origin. Now, YDNA L and R2 have highest frequency in South Asia which by your logic makes them look ASI. Since ASI is supposedly a population which is distinct from other groups it is more likely so. Moreover C is typical of Central Asian populations, a group which ANI is related to in both Reich and Moorjani paper and both of them removed Australian Aborigines and Great Andamanese from the cline since these had high C. That's probably the reason why Reich added C in ANI while R2 and L as ASIOf course not. Frequency isn't near enough to determine origin for haplogroups. Otherwise, people would be suggesting a Bengali (Brahmin) or Sindhi (Mohana) origin for R1a1a. Maybe even Kazakh. However, R1a1a is one of the most widespread haplogroups in the world. It can be found in Northern, Central and Eastern Europe to West Asia and South or Central Asia to even East Asia. However, that is not the case with C or P. For, C, among modern populations, it is almost exclusively restricted to indigenous populations of East Asia, Central Asia, Siberia, North America or Oceanian. It's relation to the ANI composite (Iran N + Steppe) is weak at best and only through Central Asia really. The issue here is that imo neither Reich and Moorjani are distinguishing between ANI like Central Asians and Turkic or East Eurasian ones. Central Asia is a highly diverse region genetically. Highly West Eurasian shifted Pashtuns/Pamiris/Tajiks on one end and Kazakhs/Kyrgyz shifted toward East Eurasians on the other end. Groups like Hazara/Uyghur/most Uzbeks in between.

As for haplogroups being found in high frequencies outside of their proposed place of origin, that is perfectly fine due to founder effects or simply haplogroups being very successful in spreading (see R1a1a). However, they should still be found in at least moderate or notable amounts near their proposed place of origin. Y-DNA L (specifically L-M357) is most frequent in the Northwestern fringes of the subcontinent and in moderate amounts in certain mid to upper caste South Indians. R2 is very ancient to South Asia but correct me if I'm wrong, it is proposed to have originated in South Central Asia or has been connected to ANE. The high frequency of L and R2 in South Asia is irrelevant though and such is the case for most haplogroups in South Asia (outside of haplogroups such as Y-DNA H and mt-DNA M). The reason being that South Asia is made up up two distinctive ancestral population composites (ANI + ASI). While deeply autochthonous to the region at this point, ANI (Iran N + Steppe related ancestry) at some point came from the Caucasus/Iran and the Central Asian steppe. It's more or less accepted that ASI like populations were here prior to ANI like ones. I'm less sure about Austro-Asiatic languages being intrusive from the East. Getting back to the point, if L or R2 are in fact related to ancient populations such as Iran N (which is ANE admixed too), it's disingenuous to imply they're indigenous. We already know L has been found among Indus Valley populations. More insight on their autosomal ancestry should help shed light on the origin of L or R2. As for why Reich or Moorjani labeled L or R2 as ASI, we weren't aware of the existence of ancients like Iran N or CHG at the time.



As far as origin is concerned, every major Indian Y-DNA has papers supporting both Indigenous and Foreign origin except J2 and that includes R1a, R2, H, L as well as C, F, etc . Y-DNA L has TMRCA 23200 ybp. How it is possible to call it ANI or ASI if ANI-ASI mixing occurred only 4600 ybp according to Moorjani paper. There are many papers which support L's origin in the sub-continent.

Unless these papers factor in ancients like Iran N or CHG, they have lost a lot of their value at this point. With new discoveries and research, prior data and understandings are being rewritten all the time. Also, how old is L in the subcontinent exactly? One of its supposed origins is the Iranian plateau where it is found in moderate frequencies (with diverse subclades) among various Iranian populations and north into the Caucasus and west into Europe. Its eastern branches are found in South Central Asia and the subcontinent.





The best thing that Moorjani paper did was not to relate any Haplogroup to ANI or ASI. It was logical since ANI and ASI are mostly hypothetical since I believe no Ancient DNA exists of them like in the case of WHG, SHG, ANE, etc. The paper talked about mtDNA U2, U7 and W are shared between Indians and West Eurasians also mentioned that they had diverged about 30,000–40,000 years BP much before the supposed mixing of ANI-ASI. However like the older paper it suffered from lop-sidedness. ie. how logical is to compare Kash Pandit to Santhals of Jharkhand. Same caste to caste comparision will be much better.

Now Q and R are ANE and most likely originated in Siberia or father east. P might as well be. What do you think of K2b. Reich called K as ANI.Moorjani didn't have the research and data on ancients such as Iran N, CHG, ANE, WHG, EHG, ENF, etc. at the time. With these ancient samples, we are getting a much better idea of some of the proposed origins of haplogroups and ancient population history along with it.

Eh, Q and R are more or less accepted Central/North Eurasian or ANE related. Many Siberian populations have West Eurasian like admixture. Not sure where you're getting far east from. P is ancestral to Q and R, no? If you want to keep going back, might as well say all haplogroups are originally East African in origin.

RasulSrg
03-29-2018, 07:42 AM
Sapporo, Hello. I am one of Nakh (chechen) L-m357, L1a2. Have you joined Haplogroup L project at FTDNA, if not please do it. We need more people of our subclade BigY tested, its the only way we can understand way of migration, and place of origin. According to Wells 2007, all L haplogroup people came out of Pamir mountains which is now Badakhshan of Tajikistan.

Sapporo
03-29-2018, 07:53 AM
Sapporo, Hello. I am one of Nakh (chechen) L-m357, L1a2. Have you joined Haplogroup L project at FTDNA, if not please do it. We need more people of our subclade BigY tested, its the only way we can understand way of migration, and place of origin. According to Wells 2007, all L haplogroup people came out of Pamir mountains which is now Badakhshan of Tajikistan.


Hi Pamir. Nice to meet you. I actually have a distant relative (cousin) on 23andMe who is Chechen. I am positive it is likely through a shared paternal ancestor since he is L-M357/L1a2 as well. Please direct our conversation to this thread below.

I am trying to join the L project on FTDNA. I ordered a 12 marker kit directly through the special L project link GarethH (in the thread below) linked me to. Since I already did autosomal testing through FTDNA, they are already analyzing my data. The expected lab results range for dates is 04/23/2018 - 05/07/2018. My plan was to do BigY eventually after I get my 12 marker kit results.


https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1376-Origin-and-Distribution-of-L1c-M357

purohit
06-19-2018, 11:13 AM
You are just talking much without any base. Can you please show me the data for founder effect in Haryanvi jats and less variation in their Y haplo and mtdna...I posted above for david g mahal study about y haplo of jats...sample size is more than 300 and it includes hindu and Sikh jat (though we don't know the exact numbers of hindu and Sikh jat but it says that muslim jat are under represented) . Please post any detailed study. I am new in the field and may be I am misinterpreting some data. From some XLS here, I see high baloch ,high NE euro and low ASI in Haryanvi jats...though caucasian is a bit low in comparison of Punjabi people but it is more than other north Indians. There were 3-4 sample of Haryana jatt and one "beniwal jat" mtdna was HV (not indigenous mtdan, I guess) Haryanvi jat data were perfectly matching with some jatt Sikh also. May be I am missing something....please enlighten me and post some data for me...I am ready to learn!

Jats have more than 4000 clans and they have their own norms about marriage. They don't marry in four close clans.. (father, mother, grandmother .. )..don't marry in the same village and neighboring villages....Most of the other hindus can marry in the same village and in same clan........ Go to south and see how the hindus marry with their first cousins..see the parsis..and in Punjab see the aroras/khatris...they are tend to genetic disease not jats imo....you need to learn more about jat marriage norms..

I have also seen the old threads and seen the frustration of the self declared Aryan people....though their is nothing Aryan in them ..born from the mouth of brahma, fireborn, suryavanshi , chandravansi...though in reality , majority of them are austro Asiatic people or just the founder effect...weak ..short in stature..and absurd in looks.
and this is how they kill their frustrations

- Jats have high NE euro and good looks.. it is british effect...something else...?
- jats have all Y haplo of west and north..they are mixed people
- jats have hardly indigenous y haplo as , H, F..they are malechhas from foreign land...hmmm..
- jats have high L..they are Dravidian people...
- jats have high R..founder effect....
- Sikh jatt and hindu jatt are different
- Jats are taller and strong in physique. because they use dairy.....hahahaha..and others are dying of hunger
- Jats have lowest ASI ..but they look south indian....huaaah......

Doosro ko neecha dikha ke aaj tak koi oochha nhi hua hai. Bhai pata nhi short kitni height ko tum maante ho mene apni jaati waalo ki height naapi thi 2015 mein poore saal tak. Total 91 chhoro ki average thi 179cm for over 20 and and 177cm for 16-20.

sultan
07-17-2018, 04:50 AM
I have sent the company but asked me for a new study proving that the Haplogroup L
So far there are many samples outside the global strain project
The company did not add or help us to add these samples
As it did with Haplogroup B
It is not true that the source of the Indian dynasty as it is the statistic (J H R) is the most
As well as that more than a sample source is fixed and very old as mentioned in ancient Greek books
For Arabic samples on M27
This statistic, as you can see and hide many samples in the Fertile Crescent and the company politicized in this regard

sultan
09-04-2018, 05:38 AM
Update for LT-L298
DATE: July 12, 2018.

ABSTARCT: LR-M9 and its downstream mutations have been difficult to position within the Y-chromosome phylogeny. Data for T-M184 must be gleaned from pre-2011 studies that report data for K2-M70 and T-M70. L-M20 and T-M184, when viewed as subclades of a new LT-L298 mutation, become an important component in understanding the correlation between genetic and linguistic diversity. The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304. Moreover, like J1-M267 and J2-M172, L-M20 and T-M184 probably co-evolved in Southwest Asia co-expanded into adjacent regions during the Neolithic. It should be noted that the evolution of L-M20 in South Asia, as suggested by some studies, is inconsistent with the genetic and archaeological evidence. Rather, the data suggest that the Neolithic farmers of Southwest Asia must have been a population in Anatolia having Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M304 and LT-L298. When these farmers expanded out of Anatolia, their genes and languages followed. The linguistic relics of this expansion include Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European and Dravidian languages. As such, the Early Farming Dispersal Hypothesis provides a robust model of prehistoric language dispersals. From a big picture genetic perspective, LT-L298, G-M201, E-M96 played important supporting roles in the Southwest Asian Neolithic expansion, whereas the main actor was clearly J-M304.

pegasus
09-04-2018, 07:31 AM
Update for LT-L298
DATE: July 12, 2018.

ABSTARCT: LR-M9 and its downstream mutations have been difficult to position within the Y-chromosome phylogeny. Data for T-M184 must be gleaned from pre-2011 studies that report data for K2-M70 and T-M70. L-M20 and T-M184, when viewed as subclades of a new LT-L298 mutation, become an important component in understanding the correlation between genetic and linguistic diversity. The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304. Moreover, like J1-M267 and J2-M172, L-M20 and T-M184 probably co-evolved in Southwest Asia co-expanded into adjacent regions during the Neolithic. It should be noted that the evolution of L-M20 in South Asia, as suggested by some studies, is inconsistent with the genetic and archaeological evidence. Rather, the data suggest that the Neolithic farmers of Southwest Asia must have been a population in Anatolia having Haplogroups E-M96, G-M201, J-M304 and LT-L298. When these farmers expanded out of Anatolia, their genes and languages followed. The linguistic relics of this expansion include Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European and Dravidian languages. As such, the Early Farming Dispersal Hypothesis provides a robust model of prehistoric language dispersals. From a big picture genetic perspective, LT-L298, G-M201, E-M96 played important supporting roles in the Southwest Asian Neolithic expansion, whereas the main actor was clearly J-M304.

I highly doubt its from the Anatolia, T very likely is, LT seems to have very ancient Basal origins. The fact L typically is found in populations with high Neolithic Iranian related ancestry, points to a region south of the Caucasus and east of the Zagros ie somewhere on Iranian plateau.

bmoney
09-04-2018, 07:43 AM
I highly doubt its from the Anatolia, T very likely is, LT seems to have very ancient Basal origins. The fact L typically is found in populations with high Neolithic Iranian related ancestry, points to a region south of the Caucasus and east of the Zagros ie somewhere on Iranian plateau.

L2 has nothing to do with Neolithic Iran though.

Its distribution in Europe is probably via Anatolia

T also does not follow Neo Iran distribution

pegasus
09-04-2018, 08:02 AM
L2 has nothing to do with Neolithic Iran though.

Its distribution in Europe is probably via Anatolia

T also does not follow Neo Iran distribution

Ofcourse it does not, Chalcolithic farming cultures which emerge in Anatolia do carry Neolithic Iranian ancestry, those Minoans and its seen in Southern Italians , as well which is not surprising, given many are descended from Iron Age Greeks, who in turn had substantial ancestry from Minoans and other Greek Islanders.

bmoney
09-04-2018, 08:16 AM
Ofcourse it does not, Chalcolithic farming cultures which emerge in Anatolia do carry Neolithic Iranian ancestry, those Minoans and its seen in Southern Italians , as well which is not surprising, given many are descended from Iron Age Greeks, who in turn had substantial ancestry from Minoans and other Greek Islanders.

Only L1 is found in Iran however (l1a1, l1a2, L1b)

There was a user on the forum who did detailed research on T

This was his opinion on L:


Hi bmoney, yes L-M20 should be originated around the Black Sea, very close to the T origins. Both, T and L have their respective basal splitted branches deeply rooted in Europe but L2 is even more european rooted than T2, since L2 most distant offshot is found as far as Zagros Mountains while T2 is found as far as Himalayas. L2 diversity is found primarily in Europe while T2 is pulled to the East.

So I believe that L could be the western branch and T the eastern branch despite of their T1 and L1 have the inverse situation, being L1 the eastern branch and T1 the western branch.

pegasus
09-04-2018, 08:40 AM
Only L1 is found in Iran however (l1a1, l1a2, L1b)

There was a user on the forum who did detailed research on T

This was his opinion on L:

Black Sea? For that to occur you would have considerable Villabruna like ancestry in Neolithic Iranians. Ultimately LT originates with some Basal Eurasian like population and we know Basal Eurasians come deep within Western Asia, where the most Basal populations live.

Btw L2 was found in Tepe Hisar, Iran, I believe its the earliest evidence of it.

bmoney
09-04-2018, 08:49 AM
Black Sea? For that to occur you would have considerable Villabruna like ancestry in Neolithic Iranians. Ultimately LT originates with some Basal Eurasian like population and we know Basal Eurasians come deep within Western Asia, where the most Basal populations live.

I think Anatolia farmer basal is more likely as both Europe and Areni-1 have this ancestry.

L1 is rarely found west of Turkey and L2 rarely east of Turkey

The Black Sea borders Turkey so i don’t think he meant Villabruna

pegasus
09-04-2018, 08:56 AM
I think Anatolia farmer basal is more likely as both Europe and Areni-1 have this ancestry.

L1 is rarely found west of Turkey and L2 rarely east of Turkey

The Black Sea borders Turkey so i don’t think he meant Villabruna

The earliest sample of L2 is from Tepe Hissar, Iran. L2 is very rare overall. Villabruna ancestry is not from Turkey but Neolithic and Paleolithic people there harbor a tonne of that ancestry.

Ebizur
09-04-2018, 12:28 PM
The earliest sample of L2 is from Tepe Hissar, Iran. L2 is very rare overall. Villabruna ancestry is not from Turkey but Neolithic and Paleolithic people there harbor a tonne of that ancestry.I have noted a few cases of potential or probable L2 in samples from modern India, Iran, and the Caucasus:

2/49 = 4.1% L-M20(xM76, M317, M349, M357, PK3) Hindus from New Delhi (Simona Fornarino et al. 2009, "Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the Tharus (Nepal): a reservoir of genetic variation")

1/25 = 4.0% L-M11(xM76, M317, M357) Kordestan, Iran (Julie Di Cristofaro et al. 2013, "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge")

2/100 = 2.0% L-M20(xM27, M317, M357) Shapsug (Oleg Balanovsky et al. 2011, "Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region")

parasar
09-04-2018, 04:06 PM
... new LT-L298 mutation, become an important component in understanding the correlation between genetic and linguistic diversity. The distribution pattern of LT-L298 is strikingly similar to J-M304...

LT is about 50000 years old and J is about 45000 years old.
These are pre-LGM lines close in age to the first appearance of AMH in western Asia.

J appears in Satsurblia (Late Upper Palaeolithic 13,300 years old). And it is noted: "17,000-18,000 cal. BP and as such are the first well-dated evidence for human occupation in the southern Caucasus at the end of the LGM."

So it appears that they were 'wintering' in the LGM somewhere else and the spread of these lines happens post LGM.

vettor
09-04-2018, 05:01 PM
Black Sea? For that to occur you would have considerable Villabruna like ancestry in Neolithic Iranians. Ultimately LT originates with some Basal Eurasian like population and we know Basal Eurasians come deep within Western Asia, where the most Basal populations live.

Btw L2 was found in Tepe Hisar, Iran, I believe its the earliest evidence of it.

The oldest T1 found is in modern Bulgaria on the black sea......the T2-Ph110 has only been discovered in 2015 and its stated as:
T2 (T-PH110), the most basal primary branch of T-M184, has been found in three very separate geographical regions: the North European Plain; the Kura-Araks Basin of the Caucasus and; Bhutan.

pegasus
09-05-2018, 06:06 AM
The oldest T1 found is in modern Bulgaria on the black sea......the T2-Ph110 has only been discovered in 2015 and its stated as:
T2 (T-PH110), the most basal primary branch of T-M184, has been found in three very separate geographical regions: the North European Plain; the Kura-Araks Basin of the Caucasus and; Bhutan.

Thanks! LT though will ultimately derive from some very ancient upper Paleolithic Basal population in the Near East, T is clearly from Anatolia, I think Levant Chl shows this, though it strange why Barcin and those Aegean farmers lack it

vettor
09-05-2018, 06:21 AM
Thanks! LT though will ultimately derive from some very ancient upper Paleolithic Basal population in the Near East, T is clearly from Anatolia, I think Levant Chl shows this, though it strange why Barcin and those Aegean farmers lack it

If your definition of Near East is south of the Zargos mountain range, then this is wrong.......T is north of it........the only true very old Levant, Near East marker would be E .
I once placed T with L in the Central Asian area.( somewhere around the map in this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahae ).....now I think North Caucasus...........but I concede with Alpes that modern Bulgaria on the black sea is also a possibility..( he has made comments on this ).

pegasus
09-05-2018, 06:33 AM
If your definition of Near East is south of the Zargos mountain range, then this is wrong.......T is north of it........the only true very old Levant, Near East marker would be E .
I once placed T with L in the Central Asian area.( somewhere around the map in this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahae ).....now I think North Caucasus...........but I concede with Alpes that modern Bulgaria on the black sea is also a possibility..( he has made comments on this ).

The Near East encompasses the Fertile Crescent, which encompasses the Zagros range naturally.

Situated between the Arabian Desert to the south and the mountains of the Armenian Highland to the north, it extends from Babylonia and adjacent Elam (the southwestern province of Persia, also called Susiana) up the Tigris and Euphrates rivers to Assyria. From the Zagros Mountains east of Assyria it continues westward over Syria to the Mediterranean and extends southward to southern Palestine. T

https://www.britannica.com/place/Fertile-Crescent

vettor
09-05-2018, 05:19 PM
The Near East encompasses the Fertile Crescent, which encompasses the Zagros range naturally.

Situated between the Arabian Desert to the south and the mountains of the Armenian Highland to the north, it extends from Babylonia and adjacent Elam (the southwestern province of Persia, also called Susiana) up the Tigris and Euphrates rivers to Assyria. From the Zagros Mountains east of Assyria it continues westward over Syria to the Mediterranean and extends southward to southern Palestine. T

https://www.britannica.com/place/Fertile-Crescent

ok
then the the Kura-axes culture, armenian highlands and Proto-hurrian lands but not assyrian or mitanni lands are as noted, part of the Caucasus and not middle-east nor near-east .........we can also throw in modern Azerbaijan as part of the Caucasus.
So, L and T are neither haplo. LT are part of the near-east but part of the Caucasus as per ancient studies