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razyn
01-12-2018, 09:12 PM
Probably we need a thread about this new paper, so the inevitable discussion of it won't get misplaced. RCO posted the abstract on a thread on which discussions are unwelcome. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=332475&viewfull=1#post332475

It belongs in the DF27 area because of this bit of misguided methodology:


Results: The frequencies of Y-chromosomal markers Z195 and SRY2627 decline steeply going north from Spain and the data for the Flemish and Dutch populations fits within this pattern. No trend of higher frequencies of these variants has been found within the well-ascertained samples associated with Spanish Fury cities.

I'm inclined to think that's because the frequency of those markers (and several others on the DF27 tree) increased, a couple thousand years or so before the Spanjool business in the Low Countries, going south toward Spain, etc. But we shall see. I realize the other point of view is based on evidence, of a sort. That evidence may be interpreted in several ways, and in my opinion the "DF27 is Iberian" crowd need to raise their sights a few clicks to see what was actually going on in this phylogeny.

RCO
01-12-2018, 11:14 PM
They also could investigate other more specific Iberian markers in the Low Countries to try to find an explanation and TMRCA suitable with their question/legend.

Pylsteen
01-12-2018, 11:20 PM
I think there was one case of a rare heart disease shared with some Dutch and Spanish families which they assumed was through a Spanish soldier;
also there are a few Dutch families likely originating in Spain in this period (such as Grandia, though the fact that this family kept such a name doesn't point to a soldiers rape), but not widescale.

further though: it is still very common to ascribe dark traits to "the Spanish", like the Armada in GB, and I think that will continue, because people are stubborn listeners.

ADW_1981
01-13-2018, 12:46 AM
They also could investigate other more specific Iberian markers in the Low Countries to try to find an explanation and TMRCA suitable with their question/legend.

Interestingly, I have only seen a couple of Z209* kits (xZZ40, xZ295) and they were MDKA France and Germany.

Arch
01-14-2018, 10:15 AM
Why does it have to be the low countries?

Shadogowah
01-14-2018, 03:17 PM
Besides a possible genetic connection 2500 years ago, when it comes to Dutch families who could have Iberian origin let's remember there was a busy exchange of goods (mainly wool, wine and fabric) and people between Spaniards and Dutch since the middle ages. Already a few centuries before the Spanish emperor (who was born and raised in Flanders) inherited those territories.

(The so-called black legend is mostly garbage propaganda anyway)

razyn
01-14-2018, 03:28 PM
Why does it have to be the low countries?

It's the topic of the new paper mentioned in the first post, and the thread title.

Pylsteen
01-14-2018, 03:44 PM
As far of the why; the Netherlands have been under Spanish rule for some time in the 16th century, the Southern Netherlands for a longer time, and there was the long war, and the author is Flemish.

alexfritz
01-14-2018, 03:49 PM
Results: The frequencies of Y-chromosomal markers Z195 and SRY2627 decline steeply going north from Spain and the data for the Flemish and Dutch populations fits within this pattern. No trend of higher frequencies of these variants has been found within the well-ascertained samples associated with Spanish Fury cities.

if the premise of the paper is to find legacy of 'spanish soldiers' in the low-countries than just looking solely at spain itself is a skewed premise altogether, as the 'Army of Flanders' relied heavily on the so called foreign contingents from 1565-97 the 'Army of Flanders' J.Glete2002p.85 consisted of 40 tercios 22Spanish/18Italian(majSouth_It) and 47 regiments 28German/19Walloon in 1621 of the 47 tercios I.Lopez2012p.7 seven were Spanish the rest (40) being Walloon and Italian with regiments being German, Burgundian and Irish;

Shadogowah
01-14-2018, 03:54 PM
The Spanish and Italian tercios made only a small percentage (the elite) of the Spanish armies in the Low Countries anyway. The most of the soldiers under the Spanish flag were center european mercenaries (German, Swiss, Walloons..)

Oops, alexfritz post was not there when I posted mine... I'll also add that I read somewhere that Napolitan tercios were also counted as Spanish.

palamede
01-16-2018, 02:45 PM
The Spanish and Italian tercios made only a small percentage (the elite) of the Spanish armies in the Low Countries anyway. The most of the soldiers under the Spanish flag were center european mercenaries (German, Swiss, Walloons..)

Oops, alexfritz post was not there when I posted mine... I'll also add that I read somewhere that Napolitan tercios were also counted as Spanish.

There were also light cavalry of Croatians, Albanians, .... and the bankers of the army were genoese, the Spain king missed money frequentl and must borrow money from the bankers.

This is right for the composition of spanish army, but there is a strong legend which claims every brown Belgians or every very brown northern French are the trace of the spanish soldiers, and nowadays this is always believed.

Degredado
01-16-2018, 02:49 PM
Dark hair or Z195 among the Irish or Dutch = descent from Spanish soldiers. It is known.

razyn
01-16-2018, 05:19 PM
Dark hair or Z195 among the Irish or Dutch = descent from Spanish soldiers. It is known.

Dr. Hans van Vliet, a geneticist in Amsterdam who used to post on the WorldFamilies R1b forum as "Spanjool" because he had assumptions along these lines, found a very distant cousin who shared (on paper) a most recent common ancestor (in the paternal line) in the 12th century. Both have been sequenced with NextGen technology, and they match. So that particular Low Countries line (which is downstream of Z195, Z295, and CTS4065) is genetically confirmed about 500 years farther back than the Spanish soldiers in question here.

Z195 itself is very much older than Spain (as a nation-state), and almost certainly did not originate there. That's still being argued. But a lot of "known" stuff is being overturned, or at least modified, by ever more precise sequencing -- especially NextGen sequencing of ancient remains from independently dated contexts.

It takes a while for the scientific literature to catch up to what the hobbyists have seen quite recently. A paper can easily take five years or more for the grant proposal, funding, research, writing, revisions, maybe circulation of a preprint, reviews, and editing, through final publication in a journal. So you get stuff like a cutting-edge 2017 paper, the illustrations of which use a 2012 version of the ISOGG tree. Meanwhile that tree has been growing exponentially during those five years, and we "citizen scientists" have been checking it frequently (at least, the parts on which we are working). Some of the university affiliated scientists whose names are on the new paper have also been keeping up -- but they can't keep rewriting a manuscript, after it's in that pipeline. They also have jobs, families, and new deadlines to meet -- on some other topic.

vettor
01-16-2018, 05:26 PM
There were also light cavalry of Croatians, Albanians, .... and the bankers of the army were genoese, the Spain king missed money frequentl and must borrow money from the bankers.

This is right for the composition of spanish army, but there is a strong legend which claims every brown Belgians or every very brown northern French are the trace of the spanish soldiers, and nowadays this is always believed.

3 of my matches ( via ftdna and yfull ) are walloons, the contact stated to me his ancestors where walloons in the service of the spanish making cannons and left for northern spain once the spanish lost their dutch holdings
"The village of Bernot is in the ancient region of Thiérage, which in those days was partly in France (County of Vermandois) and partly in the Spanish Netherlands (County of Hainaut, whence my ancestors heeded).
Thiérage is right next to Lorraine. If you look at today's statistics, most Bernot in France live in Lorraine and Alsace. "

I do not know how much the spanish road from Genoa to the netherlands played in the recruitment of men for the spanish war effort

ADW_1981
01-16-2018, 05:41 PM
Dark hair or Z195 among the Irish or Dutch = descent from Spanish soldiers. It is known.

My Z196 grandfather did have black hair, not just dark or brown. Thus it must be correct.

Webb
01-16-2018, 06:10 PM
Dr. Hans van Vliet, a geneticist in Amsterdam who used to post on the WorldFamilies R1b forum as "Spanjool" because he had assumptions along these lines, found a very distant cousin who shared (on paper) a most recent common ancestor (in the paternal line) in the 12th century. Both have been sequenced with NextGen technology, and they match. So that particular Low Countries line (which is downstream of Z195, Z295, and CTS4065) is genetically confirmed about 500 years farther back than the Spanish soldiers in question here.

Z195 itself is very much older than Spain (as a nation-state), and almost certainly did not originate there. That's still being argued. But a lot of "known" stuff is being overturned, or at least modified, by ever more precise sequencing -- especially NextGen sequencing of ancient remains from independently dated contexts.

It takes a while for the scientific literature to catch up to what the hobbyists have seen quite recently. A paper can easily take five years or more for the grant proposal, funding, research, writing, revisions, maybe circulation of a preprint, reviews, and editing, through final publication in a journal. So you get stuff like a cutting-edge 2017 paper, the illustrations of which use a 2012 version of the ISOGG tree. Meanwhile that tree has been growing exponentially during those five years, and we "citizen scientists" have been checking it frequently (at least, the parts on which we are working). Some of the university affiliated scientists whose names are on the new paper have also been keeping up -- but they can't keep rewriting a manuscript, after it's in that pipeline. They also have jobs, families, and new deadlines to meet -- on some other topic.

Yes, Mr. van Vliet and his distant cousins are my very distant cousins who have a shared marker of Y13211 that has a TMRCA date to my current terminal marker, FGC23196, of 1150 ybp. Which puts this close to what, 900 A.D.? And my peoples originated in England, at some point. Maybe Spanish Vikings? Or maybe France is the bologna and Spain and the Netherlands are the two pieces of Wonder Bread.

agil
01-16-2018, 06:20 PM
Come on guys using the hair color to say that you are spanish or not is retarded and unscientific. I am 100% spanish and was the only blue eyed blonde in a 100% german company. That's anecdotal evidence.

Check the DF-27 percentages according to Living DNA:

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19154&d=1507147062

It is too old and widespread to tell. We will need to go much deeper into the subclades.

ADW_1981
01-16-2018, 06:34 PM
Come on guys using the hair color to say that you are spanish or not is retarded and unscientific. I am 100% spanish and was the only blue eyed blonde in a 100% german company. That's anecdotal evidence.

Check the DF-27 percentages according to Living DNA:

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19154&d=1507147062

It is too old and widespread to tell. We will need to go much deeper into the subclades.

My comment was a joke, a bad one at that.

razyn
01-16-2018, 08:13 PM
My comment was a joke, a bad one at that.

I actually laughed out loud, such that my wife asked why. And it's hard to explain, she's not DF27+. Duh.

R.Rocca
01-18-2018, 02:53 PM
Probably we need a thread about this new paper, so the inevitable discussion of it won't get misplaced. RCO posted the abstract on a thread on which discussions are unwelcome. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=332475&viewfull=1#post332475

It belongs in the DF27 area because of this bit of misguided methodology:

I'm inclined to think that's because the frequency of those markers (and several others on the DF27 tree) increased, a couple thousand years or so before the Spanjool business in the Low Countries, going south toward Spain, etc. But we shall see. I realize the other point of view is based on evidence, of a sort. That evidence may be interpreted in several ways, and in my opinion the "DF27 is Iberian" crowd need to raise their sights a few clicks to see what was actually going on in this phylogeny.

Perhaps that combined with a decrease of P312 lineages in the Low Countries after the Bronze Age?

Shadogowah
03-12-2019, 09:10 AM
Today in one of the most relevant Spanish newspapers they publish an article about this topic.

DNA vs the Black Legend
A study carried out among inhabitants of cities that were looted by the Tercios of Flanders in the Low countries doesn't find a genetic fingerprint that could be associated to Spanish troops.

https://elpais.com/cultura/2019/03/11/actualidad/1552300345_294295.html