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geiserich
01-13-2018, 03:27 PM
The clade R1b-Z29560 (U152->Z193->Z192->BY10448->PF6652->Z29456->Z229460) is interesting. There are now 6 members in this clade with BIGY, but there is no further subgrouping. This seems exceptional, because most clades are bifunctional.
According to YTREE the TMRCA is 2500 BCE.
My suggestion: The MRCA was a historic person with great reproductive success.
Perhaps the celtic chieftain Brennus, who conquered Rome.
What do you think?

theImmortal
01-13-2018, 05:46 PM
What do you mean by "bifunctional?"

geiserich
01-14-2018, 07:00 AM
Bifunctional means, that there are usually (except for same family names) only two clades with the same SNPs

theImmortal
01-16-2018, 06:17 PM
I think I see why you find it to be noteworthy; there are several distinct surviving lines from a relatively distant (but not too distant) ancestor.

On the Big Tree, I count 7 distinct surviving lines for U152 and at least 12 for L2. These are older than Z29460, and would have had a greater opportunity for expansion during the Bronze Age conquest of Europe. The more recent branches which have numerous distinct lines (e.g., R-Y16885, which has 6) are so recent as to give them a greater opportunity to survive to the present day.

Meanwhile, Z29460 is too young to attribute success to the early Bronze Age "power vacuum," but far too old to attribute to something that happened in the last millennia. Is that a fair characterization?

Are you part of the subclade? It could be that someone in the group encouraged their Big Y matches to submit to these third-party sites, hence, some over-representation. I think it's futile to speculate as to such person's identity, but I would also wonder why none of the person's sons were successful in propagating their own line.

geiserich
01-18-2018, 05:14 PM
Yes I`m part of this subclade and so far I know, there is no encouraging for BIG Y.
It`s fascinating, that none of the sons was able to found an own subclade. Why?
According to Ytree the TMRCA of Z29460 is 2500 years. The expanding population in this era and in the area, where the descendants of the six members live (North Italy, Germany, France, British Isles) were the Celts.
But soon after their golden era, the Celts were slaughtered in great numbers, especially in France and therefore the subclade can`t expand any more.
Any thoughts?

MitchellSince1893
01-18-2018, 05:50 PM
I think sometimes we tend to forget that only a very small fraction of men have done a ydna test available for public viewing.

For example of the 700 million men in Western Europe and the Americas, maybe half are R1b. Of these approx 350 million men less than .5% would have taken a test to know their haplogroup.
These numbers may be off but the point is we currently are aware of only the very tip of the iceberg. There’s probably several yet to be discovered ancient subclades with living descendants

theImmortal
01-19-2018, 02:02 AM
I think sometimes we tend to forget that only a very small fraction of men have done a ydna test available for public viewing.

For example of the 700 million men in Western Europe and the Americas, maybe half are R1b. Of these approx 350 million men less than .5% would have taken a test to know their haplogroup.
These numbers may be off but the point is we currently are aware of only the very tip of the iceberg. There’s probably several yet to be discovered ancient subclades with living descendants

I agree with this sentiment. At the moment, R-Z29460 is a statistical outlier, but the numbers could even out as more people test.

I like your thinking though, geiserich, in terms of identifying an historical context that might explain the data.

geiserich
03-25-2019, 06:31 PM
The R-Z29460 descendants lives today mostly in Italy, Germany and the British Isles. There are single occurances in the Levant, Netherlands, France and Spain. Maybe this haplogroup originated in a Celtic tribe and spread later in the Roman Empire by soldiers, settlers or merchants.
What do you think?