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View Full Version : U106* (U106+ Z381- Z18-) & L199.1+ & L217.1+



TigerMW
09-10-2013, 02:18 PM
Here are the earliest branching folks from the two large U106 subclades, Z381 and Z18.

f206572 Gillespie R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- L199.1- L5- L6- P107- L217- sa- uas Scotland
fN82860 Gordon R1b-U106* U106+ L132+ Z18- Z381- L199.1- L5- L6- P107- L217- sa- uas Scotland, Highland, Sutherland, Caen
f121519 Kuhns R1b-U106* U106+ L132+ L477+ L493+ Z18- Z381- L199.1- L5- L6- P107- L217- sa- uas Germany
f73422 Schlegal R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- P107- sa- uas Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt
f224064 Shephard R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- L6- P107- L217- sa- uas England
f181203 King R1b-U106* U106+ L132+ Z18- Z381- L6- P107- L217- sa-24-151115 England, South West, Gloucestershire, Berkeley, Ham
f143009 McDonald R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- L6- P107- L217- sa-24-64012 zzzUnkOrigin
f21569 Cook R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- P107- sa-24-710-57210 zzzUnkOrigin

Scotland shows up more so than England while Germany does make the board, which I would expect.

I don't see the Low Countries in this yet, but we should count the L199.1+ folks as they are probably private and meet the Z381- Z18- criteria.

f63831 Van Tielroe Netherlands, Zeeland, Domburg
fN77403 Van Tielroe Netherlands, Zeeland, Domburg

To be fair, I should also include L217.1+ since they are Z381- Z18- too:

fN32126 Blackburn R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171 UK
fN81545 Hall R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171 England, West Midlands, Herefordshire, Pembridge
f23884 Hickman R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ P107- s2171 zzzUnkOrigin
f230795 Kirk R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ s2171 England, West Midlands, Warkwickshire
f194170 Lovell R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ L6- P107- s2171 UK
f217725 Manning R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171 France, Channel Islands, Jersey (UK but close to France)
f23545 Platt R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L132+ L217+ L5- L6- P107- s2171 England, West Midlands, Shropshire, Hodnet
f232315 Goodson R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171-n425 England
fN50419 Goodson R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ s2171-n425 Ireland
f206551 Goodson R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171-n425 zzzUnkOrigin
fN87046 Smith R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ P107- s2171-n425 France
f2599 Walker R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ s2171-n425 zzzUnkOrigin

Perhaps Clinton P can help us. L217 has multiple occurrences. I'm a little concerned that the 425=null guys are L217.1+ since 425=null is common in parts of L48.

All in all, I don't see a Poland or Hungary up above. I also don't see an Austria, but Austria is terribly under-represented in our projects so that doesn't mean much.

I was surprised to see France show up at all.

Clinton P
09-10-2013, 04:12 PM
The motif for L217.1+ appears to be

DYS492 = 13+ (This captures most U106)
DYS520 = 21+

Usually with:

YCAIIb = 22
DYS617 = 11

The only exceptions to this are Lovell with YCAIIb = 23 & DYS617 = 12, and Blackburn with YCAIIb = 23.

There are 15 L217.1+ haplotypes. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?390-R-L217-1-(R1b1a2a1a1a7-YCC-2010)-Information

The DYS425 = null guys have all been proven to be L217.1+ by Sanger sequencing (L217 doesn't work on the Geno2.0 chip)

There are 66 haplotypes who would test positive if they did so. See Yahoo Groups - R1b1c_U106-S21 forum.
Files -> R1b1a2a1a1a7 or SNP L217[.1] Information -> L217 positive 07 July 2013.xlsx

Currently the L217.1 positive hotspot appears to be an area in the British West Midlands (Shropshire, Staffordshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire and Warwickshire), there also appears to be a ‘French Connection’.

Both Vince T and myself are participating in the Full Y Chromosome Sequencing at Full Genomes Corporation, Inc.

Clinton P

GoldenHind
09-10-2013, 04:16 PM
Odd that the hotspot should be in the West Midlands rather than the East Midlands or East Anglia.

lgmayka
09-11-2013, 12:10 AM
All in all, I don't see a Poland or Hungary up above.
Does Geno 2.0 test Z18 ? If so, then N59802 of Ukraine (who is definitely Z381-) appears to be Z18- as well. He has 21 at DYS520.

EDIT: Yes, Geno 2.0 does apparently test Z18.

As always, please remember that not everyone has the money and motivation for perpetual SNP testing. Thus, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," especially with respect to obscure deep subclades and paraclades. Paraclades, in particular, require multiple negative results that quickly sap both money and motivation.

Wing Genealogist
09-11-2013, 04:47 AM
Larry is absolutely correct in his statement that the vast majority of folks who would ultimately be U106* are hidden under the guise of U106 and untested below that (precisely for the reason he indicated). This is especially true for L48*, as the major subclade (Z9 - which is quite a bit larger than L47) is not currently on FTDNA's haplotree (and thus hard for folks to even find, say nothing about testing for).

TigerMW
09-11-2013, 01:46 PM
... All in all, I don't see a Poland or Hungary up above. I also don't see an Austria, but Austria is terribly under-represented in our projects so that doesn't mean much.

I was surprised to see France show up at all.


Does Geno 2.0 test Z18 ? If so, then N59802 of Ukraine (who is definitely Z381-) appears to be Z18- as well. He has 21 at DYS520.

EDIT: Yes, Geno 2.0 does apparently test Z18.

As always, please remember that not everyone has the money and motivation for perpetual SNP testing. Thus, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," especially with respect to obscure deep subclades and paraclades. Paraclades, in particular, require multiple negative results that quickly sap both money and motivation.

I agree. Testing beyond of American and British Isles MDKAs is relatively light so very clearly the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in those areas.

Do you think U106 came into Germany from Poland/Czech Republic/Hungary ?

As far as negative results sapping motivation, in the case of U106 I think everyone should test for Z381 and Z18 or something downstream. Just having two large clades under U106 is not that demanding in comparison with some haplogroups where there are up to ten large subclades immediately under. Taking the dive to Z381+ or Z18+ or U106* (not double asterisk) is not that big of a deal.

There must be someone in U106 land who is comparing raw Geno 2 results and publishing negative results (with the postives). David Reynolds does this in L21 and posts the results. Is this posted for U106?

I've only posted SNP confirmed paragroup haplotypes so far on these threads. I've got suspects classified by STR cluster too, but then we get into a bit of speculating. Those add even more American/Isles bias though as I have to have a fair sized subgroup to look for STR patterns.

Wing Genealogist
09-11-2013, 03:13 PM
There must be someone in U106 land who is comparing raw Geno 2 results and publishing negative results (with the postives). David Reynolds does this in L21 and posts the results. Is this posted for U106?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av9lu-SZDcLodFR1Ump6a0lCTmlqUTNjd3Jwd2VIbUE#gid=4

lgmayka
09-11-2013, 08:33 PM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av9lu-SZDcLodFR1Ump6a0lCTmlqUTNjd3Jwd2VIbUE#gid=4
N59802 is listed there as U106* .

Clinton P
09-12-2013, 09:54 AM
FamilyTreeDNA kit # 181781. Surname Sallee from France, R1b1a2, appears to be a good fit for L217.1.
He has DYS492 = 13 and DYS520 = 21.

Clinton P

TigerMW
09-12-2013, 06:53 PM
N59802 is listed there as U106* .
On relevant SNPs, I've got:
fN59802 Ferleyko R1b-U106 U106+ L132+ Z381- L199.1- L6- P107- L217- sx- uas Ukraine

However, I see he is a Geno 2 customer so he might have Z18- in his raw results. Can this be confirmed? Is Maddi or Moore reviewing the raw Geno 2 results?

EDIT: I just opened the google doc link and see this work is being done. Do you know who owns this? In a wonderful world we'd have a single format all haplogroups to use even if their files are maintained separately.
.. and yes fN59802 Ferleyko is G- at Z18

Thanks for the heads up.

TigerMW
09-12-2013, 07:45 PM
Larry is absolutely correct in his statement that the vast majority of folks who would ultimately be U106* are hidden under the guise of U106 and untested below that (precisely for the reason he indicated). This is especially true for L48*, as the major subclade (Z9 - which is quite a bit larger than L47) is not currently on FTDNA's haplotree (and thus hard for folks to even find, say nothing about testing for).

I hear what you are saying, perhaps the below is why Lawrence brought it up.

Here is another way to look at things... outliers.

Below are the people with the widest GDs from the U106 modal that could be U106+ Z18- Z381-, or what I've called U106*. Cook and Wood are in the same cluster, IMO.

f21569 Cook R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- P107- sa-24-710-57210 zzzUnkOrigin
f38681 Wood R1b-U106 U106+ L6- P107- L217- sa-24-710-57210 UK
f48776 Shepherd R1b-U106 U106+ L6- P107- L217- sx- uas England
fN59326 zzzUnknown zzU106suspect sx- uas UK

fN22251 Drummen R1b-U106 U106+ L6- P107- L217- sx- uas Netherlands, Limburg, Schimmert

f217706 Browning zzU106suspect sx- uas Germany Germany

f28175 Cole R1b-U106 U106+ sx- uas zzzUnkOrigin

f138047 Jastak R1b-U106 U106+ P107- sx- uas Poland
f114312 Leibowitz zzU106suspect sx- uas Poland, Radomysl (Jewish project)

f192370 Roth zzU106suspect sx- uas Ukraine (Jewish project)

The above might be considered more significant given the heavy bias of testing U106 among British Isles descendants among our DNA projects. I took the above from 67 STR haplotypes only. The U106 file has the following counts of 67 STR haplotypes.

British Isles ____ : 1045
Germany __________ : 212
Nordic Countries _ : 126
Low Countries ____ : 77
Poland ___________ : 42

The ratio of Germany to Poland is 5 to 1 and the Isles to Poland is 25 to 1. In theory, to normalize to an Isles baseline we'd multiply the number of outliers from Germany by 5 and those from Poland by 25.

Lawrence, or anyone...

Do you think U106 came into Germany from Poland/Czech Republic/Hungary ?

Wing Genealogist
09-12-2013, 09:55 PM
[SNIP]
The ratio of Germany to Poland is 5 to 1 and the Isles to Poland is 25 to 1. In theory, to normalize to an Isles baseline we'd multiply the number of outliers from Germany by 5 and those from Poland by 25.
[SNIP]

Is there any way of discovering the overall ratio (ie of the entire FTDNA database) of Germany to Poland; British Isles to Poland, as well as the total breakdown by country/region? If so, we should be able to compare the ratios and see which regions have a higher representative of U106 (as well as other haplogroups).

TigerMW
09-12-2013, 11:13 PM
Is there any way of discovering the overall ratio (ie of the entire FTDNA database) of Germany to Poland; British Isles to Poland, as well as the total breakdown by country/region? If so, we should be able to compare the ratios and see which regions have a higher representative of U106 (as well as other haplogroups).
I think there is somewhere in the GAP tool that you can look at overall numbers of kits by MDKA country.

Are you talking about projecting out frequencies as a count of the population? If we are looking for that, I think the scientific studies, as patchy as they may seem, are a better source.

In the spreadsheet I update, I classify people down to a regional level. For instance, if it is listed, I'll include the city, district and state for Germany and then call it either Germany North, Germany South, Germany Middle or Germany unknown. I look at both the FTDNA MDKA and Ysearch ID (where I have it) and pick the most detailed. Here is what I have on Germany

Germany North ___ : 27
Germany Middle __ : 61
Germany South ___ : 32
Germany unk _____ : 90

I've never see anything that detailed from FTDNA as far as summarization.

BTW, I hesitate to mention this, but STR variance for long haplotypes is about 17% higher for Germany South than Germany North. Part of my interest in looking at outliers, early branching paragroups, etc. is see how they cross-check each other. The equivalent STR variance is about 10% higher in Poland than in Germany South. STR variance by geography is subject to many vagaries, but it is still more data to look at along with hg diversity, outliers, aDNA, etc., all to be considered with the prehistoric and historic information available and genealogies.

lgmayka
09-12-2013, 11:17 PM
Is there any way of discovering the overall ratio (ie of the entire FTDNA database) of Germany to Poland; British Isles to Poland, as well as the total breakdown by country/region?
The Y-DNA Ancestral Origins page has counts of the number of FTDNA customers from each country at each level of STR testing. For a long time, those counts were frozen. But perhaps they are now again up to date?

For Poland, I see:
12 markers: 4610
25 markers: 2781
37 markers: 2598
67 markers: 1356

Wing Genealogist
09-13-2013, 10:44 AM
I think there is somewhere in the GAP tool that you can look at overall numbers of kits by MDKA country.

Are you talking about projecting out frequencies as a count of the population? If we are looking for that, I think the scientific studies, as patchy as they may seem, are a better source.

[SNIP]

As patchy as the scientific studies are, it could never hurt to have an alternative way of projecting out the frequencies. There are still far more individuals with Continental origins tested, than individuals tested in the scientific studies.

VinceT
09-21-2013, 07:37 AM
I don't see the Low Countries in this yet, but we should count the L199.1+ folks as they are probably private and meet the Z381- Z18- criteria.

f63831 Van Tielroe Netherlands, Zeeland, Domburg
fN77403 Van Tielroe Netherlands, Zeeland, Domburg


These are myself and my father respectively, having identical 111 marker haplotypes. However f241697 (Lindemann Bützow, Germany) is also L199.1+ but has a TMRCA with us estimated to be approximately 1000 ybp. Our mutual TMRCA to f103886 (Martin zzzUnkOrigin) is approximately 1250 ybp, but Martin is L199.1- and effectively puts an upper limit on the estimated age of R-L199.1.

If you filter only these haplotypes, the off-modal signature for R-L199.1 candidacy becomes readily apparent:

DYS390=24,
DYS388>=13,
DYS389(ii-i)=17,
DYS488=18,
DYS449=27,
GataH4=10,
DYS406S1=11,
DYS413a=21,
DYS413b<=22,
DYS557=15,
DYS534>=16
DYS520=21
plus DYS492=13 modal to R-U106.

These fit within a speculative larger cluster inclusive of R-L217.1 and fN59802 (Ferleyko) that Charles Moore has labeled "2112" (for DYS520=21, GATA-A10=12). We have not yet confirmed if there even exists an SNP that unites this alleged larger cluster, but our hopes are on Clinton's FGC results. :pray:

Vince T.

Clinton P
09-23-2013, 01:12 PM
Posted on Facebook's Full Genomes Corporation, Inc page on 16 September:

"We should receive the Batch #3 raw data shortly after this Wed Sept 18 with analyses to be done in the days that follow."

I'm not aware that FGC has received Batch #3 raw data from BGI.

I'm in batch #3, my FullGenomes Results page states: "Your kit is currently being processed." (~55% complete)

Hopefully, batch #3 results are not too far away. http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Others/mail-296.gif

Clinton P

VinceT
02-01-2014, 06:18 AM
Due to FTDNA's stated capacity of 2000 SNPs, I have arranged with YSEQ.net to make several of the private SNPs on the R-U106 > L199.1 branch identified last summer through Full Genomes Corp. available for testing:

FGC393, FGC396, FGC397, FGC398, FGC399, FGC400, FGC401, FGC402,
FGC403, FGC405, FGC406, FGC409, FGC410, FGC411, FGC412, FGC413,
FGC414, FGC415, FGC416, FGC418, FGC419, FGC421, FGC425, FGC426,
FGC427, FGC428, FGC429, FGC430, FGC432, FGC434, PF5371 (aka L199.1)

Also, they are slightly less expensive to purchase through YSEQ.net than FTDNA could offer.

None of the above have yet been validated, but that will be done in the months ahead.

I now have the first 8 in the list above on order, ETA for mid-February 2014. Turnover time is approximately 14 days from order placement to order fulfillment. My progressive results can be viewed at http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=12

Vince T.
YSEQ 7

VinceT
05-26-2014, 11:01 PM
Due to FTDNA's stated capacity of 2000 SNPs, I have arranged with YSEQ.net to make several of the private SNPs on the R-U106 > L199.1 branch identified last summer through Full Genomes Corp. available for testing:

FGC393, FGC396, FGC397, FGC398, FGC399, FGC400, FGC401, FGC402,
FGC403, FGC405, FGC406, FGC409, FGC410, FGC411, FGC412, FGC413,
FGC414, FGC415, FGC416, FGC418, FGC419, FGC421, FGC425, FGC426,
FGC427, FGC428, FGC429, FGC430, FGC432, FGC434, PF5371 (aka L199.1)

Also, they are slightly less expensive to purchase through YSEQ.net than FTDNA could offer.

None of the above have yet been validated, but that will be done in the months ahead.

I now have the first 8 in the list above on order, ETA for mid-February 2014. Turnover time is approximately 14 days from order placement to order fulfillment. My progressive results can be viewed at http://shop.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=12

Vince T.
YSEQ 7

Add to the above list: FGC7509.

All 32 SNPs and INDELs listed here have now been validated and confirmed, and can be ordered from shop.yseq.net.

We do know that the cluster of SNPs positioned below R-U106 but upstream of L199.1/PF5371 include:



FGC396, FGC400, FGC403, FGC424, FGC426, FGC427, FGC429, FGC7511, A278


Bold = evidenced by NGS testing including Full Genomes Corp. and FTDNA's Big-Y; validated by Sanger sequencing.

Italics = evidenced by NGS testing including Full Genomes Corp. and FTDNA's Big-Y, but untestable by Sanger sequencing.

Underline = current clade-defining SNP.

All men who are U106+ Z381- Z18- L217.1- should strongly consider testing FGC396 at the very least.

Wing Genealogist
05-26-2014, 11:13 PM
The Chromo2 chip has tentatively identified some subclades of U106 which merit further investigation. These include: S18632 (4 individuals) S11493 (3 individuals) and S12025 (5 individuals). S12025 has also been found with Big Y testing, and has two subclades of its own (also found in the Big Y): S16361 & S15526.

There were two additional U106 subclades found in the Big Y results: F396 (which Vince mentions) as well as FGC3861. There is a cluster of folks who have DYS459a=7 which appears to be a subclade of FGC3861, but a specific SNP for this cluster has not yet been identified. Big Y Testing has also shown where L217.1 is a subclade of S1855/FGC3862 and this clade is a subclade of FGC3861.

Clinton P
05-27-2014, 01:16 PM
S18632 is available to purchase here (http://shop.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=S18632&search_in_description=1&x=0&y=6http://) and S11493 is available to purchase here (http://shop.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=S11493&search_in_description=1&x=1&y=8http://), both from the YSEQ shop.

The discounted price of single Y-SNP testing at YSEQ is $25/€18.51 (until June 15th 2014). The price after that date is unknown.

Alternatively, you could order 'Chromo2 Raw YDNA' from BritainsDNA for £129/€160/$199 here (http://www.britainsdna.com/products/ydnahttp://).

Clinton P

VinceT
12-10-2014, 03:36 AM
Z27230 (Y:19106434 A>G) defines a new clade below R-FGC396 but parallel with R-L199.1. I have an inquiry with YSEQ to find out if Z27230 will be Sanger-testable, but my initial research looks good.

lgmayka
04-21-2015, 03:39 AM
The Chromo2 chip has tentatively identified some subclades of U106 which merit further investigation. These include: S18632 (4 individuals) S11493 (3 individuals) and S12025 (5 individuals).
Kit B9847 of Poland has received his Big Y results. He is S18632+ , and apparently negative for all other known subclades of U106. For now, we presume that kits N59802 and B13699 are also S18632+ , but we will find out for sure soon enough: Both those kits have also ordered the Big Y.

An individual S18632 SNP test is available for order right now from FTDNA.

Clinton P
04-21-2015, 08:56 AM
An individual S18632 SNP test is available for order right now from FTDNA.


S18632 is also available at YSEQ at less than half the price of FamilyTreeDNA.

Clinton P

lgmayka
04-23-2015, 03:11 AM
Kit B9847 of Poland has received his Big Y results. He is S18632+ , and apparently negative for all other known subclades of U106.
He has absolutely zero entries on his Big Y Matches page. Of course, he will as soon as N59802 and B13699 get their Big Y results.

VinceT
04-23-2015, 04:55 AM
He has absolutely zero entries on his Big Y Matches page. Of course, he will as soon as N59802 and B13699 get their Big Y results.

The R-U106 project's Big Y analysis team has his closest Big Y match identified as kit 66551 (Bentley), sharing derived results for S18632, S20434, S21183, and S21514.

All four of these SNPs were also identified in at least three Chromo2 testers, labeled as anonymous samples #1049, 1051, and 1052.

These SNPs were initially identified from the Genome of the Netherlands (GoNL) project:

S18632 = Y:16670061 G>C, observed in 4/500 samples
S20434 = Y:17951958 C>T, observed in 6/498 samples
S21183 = Y:18705221 G>A, observed in 6/500 samples
S21514 = Y:18945748 C>T, observed in 6/498 samples

S20434 is also available from YSEQ.net: http://www.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=S20434

lgmayka
06-07-2015, 07:48 PM
Kit B9847 of Poland has received his Big Y results. He is S18632+ , and apparently negative for all other known subclades of U106. For now, we presume that kits N59802 and B13699 are also S18632+ , but we will find out for sure soon enough: Both those kits have also ordered the Big Y.
N59802 received his Big Y results a few weeks ago, and his YFull analysis is substantially complete. N59802 and B9847 form a new subclade on YFull's haplotree called R-Y15627 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y15627/), although it could just as well be called R-S18632. The two Slavs' TMRCA is estimated to be 700 ybp.

We really need 66551 to submit his BAM file to YFull, so that we can date the east-west split of this clade.

VinceT
06-07-2015, 09:05 PM
[Deleted]

VinceT
06-07-2015, 10:10 PM
I've opted to do a manual look-up and initial cross-reference.


Identified by FTDNA and YFull, common to 66551, N59802 and B9847:



16670061 G>C (S18632)


17951958 C>T (S20434)


18705221 G>A (ZS4151/S21183)


18945748 C>T (S21514)




Identified by FTDNA and YFull, common to N59802 and B9847:



6899602 C>T (Y15797)


8803068 T>A (Y15798)


14031524 A>C (Y15799)


14327556 C>T (Y15800)


15614898 A>G (Y15804)


15945996 A>C (Y15805)


16359528 T>C (Y15796)


16616516 C>A (Y15790)


18786960 T>A (Y15791)


18914935 C>A (Y15792)


19483956 C>T (Y15793)


21185356 C>T (Y15629)


21400138 G>A (Y15794)


23420262 G>T (Y15807)


23510245 C>T (Y15789)




Identified by FTDNA only, common to N59802 and B9847:



6395150 G>T


9850653 T>C (PF4522) [highly recurrent]


9850662 C>T (PF349) [highly recurrent]


14200997 G>A (CTS2156) [recurrent in I-Y8712]


21562790 C>A (S23267) [highly recurrent]



22422210 G>T [DYZ19 region]


22466050 C>T [DYZ19 region]


22483663 G>C [DYZ19 region]




Identified by YFull only, common to N59802 and B9847:



22068766 G>C (Y15806)


14639386 T>G (Y15801)


14711316 C>T (Y15802)


15221545 T>A (Y15803)


14483831 A>C (PH1264)


15841773 A>C (Y15627)


18817930 A>G (Y15628)


21607990 A>G (Y15795)


23464615 T>C (Y15630)

Wing Genealogist
06-08-2015, 09:43 AM
According to the YBrowse Y-Chromosome Browser (http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?) The PH SNPs (including PH1264, position A14483831C) were found in the following paper: Pille Hallast et al. (2014). Can someone look in the paper to identify which sample(s) in the paper were positive for this SNP? Also, identify whether these samples are also under R-U106, or if this is a second recurrence of this SNP.

I am tentatively calling this clade (for the R-U106 Project) PH1264 but would likely call it by a different SNP if the Hallast study identifies this SNP to a different clade.

Clinton P
06-08-2015, 05:43 PM
The Pille Hallast et al. (2014) paper has sample nor-7 as having SNP PH1264, position A14483831C.

PH1264 may or may not be directly below R-U106 (equivalent to S18632). The BigY region(s) tested by Kit# 66551 did not include position 14483831.

I would suggest that SNP PH1264 is made testable at Yseq, and that Kit# 66551 gets a result for this.

Kit#'s N59802 and B9847 are both derived for SNP PH1264.

Regards,
Clinton P

Clinton P
06-08-2015, 06:07 PM
CORRECTION

Looks like nor-7 may belong to Hg-I, since he also has S2155 and F2642.

Regards,
Clinton P

VinceT
06-09-2015, 01:29 AM
PH1264 (14483831 A>C) was observed in one of 333 samples, called "nor-7", who was assigned to haplogroup I1-M253.

Edit: I guess I need to read these threads to completion before posting. :P

lgmayka
06-25-2015, 02:19 AM
N59802 received his Big Y results a few weeks ago, and his YFull analysis is substantially complete. N59802 and B9847 form a new subclade on YFull's haplotree called R-Y15627 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y15627/), although it could just as well be called R-S18632. The two Slavs' TMRCA is estimated to be 700 ybp.

We really need 66551 to submit his BAM file to YFull, so that we can date the east-west split of this clade.
The Big Y Matches page (of #N59802) now shows another member of R-S18632. He shares the following reliable SNPs with #N59802 and #B9847 only (#66551 does not have these):
21185356 (Y15629)
16616516 (Y15790)
19483956 (Y15793)
21400138 (Y15794)
8803068 (Y15798)
14031524 (Y15799)
14327556 (Y15800)
14711316 (Y15802)
15945996 (Y15805)
23420262 (Y15807)

VinceT
06-25-2015, 05:25 AM
Is this a fourth member of R-S18632 / R-Y15627? If so, can you refer him to the R1b-U106 Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx ?

lgmayka
06-25-2015, 09:25 AM
Is this a fourth member of R-S18632 / R-Y15627? If so, can you refer him to the R1b-U106 Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx ?
I have sent him that suggestion.

Michał
06-25-2015, 06:14 PM
I have sent him that suggestion.
Based on his last name, can you guess where his paternal lineage is from?

VinceT
07-31-2015, 01:32 AM
I have sent him that suggestion.

YF03861 recently appeared under R-Y15627 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y15627/), with further classification pending the next build. Is he FTDNA's 66551, or the new anonymous BigY match? Hmmm....

edit: Probably the anonymous match. #66551 appears to be negative for Y15627.

lgmayka
07-31-2015, 02:49 AM
YF03861 recently appeared under R-Y15627 (http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y15627/), with further classification pending the next build. Is he FTDNA's 66551, or the new anonymous BigY match?
YF03861 received Big Y results just a couple of weeks ago, so he is not anyone previously discussed.

VinceT
07-31-2015, 06:37 AM
YF03861 received Big Y results just a couple of weeks ago, so he is not anyone previously discussed.

Your insight suggests that he is also in the Polish DNA Project then? B13699 perhaps?

lgmayka
07-31-2015, 09:59 AM
B13699 perhaps?
Exactly.

VinceT
10-16-2015, 12:55 AM
Exciting news for members of the R1b-U106 Haplogroup!

Family Tree DNA is pleased to announce the introduction of a new Deep Clade test for decedents of Haplogroup R1b-U106 and descedents [sic]. The purpose of this test is to identify your most terminal SNP on the Y-DNA Tree of mankind!


During the past two years the number of SNP’s on the tree of Haplogroup R1b has expanded dramatically. While we are confident you are in Haplogroup R1b-U106 or downstream subgroups you now have the opportunity to expand the depth of your Haplogroup much further with this exclusive test.

The introductory price is $99 US, and is expected to last for one week.

SNPs included:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6336&stc=1

VinceT
10-16-2015, 12:55 AM
[duplicate posting - glitchy editor]

VinceT
10-16-2015, 01:09 AM
YSEQ.net has a competing test called the "R1b-U106(xL48) Panel", available [here (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=18643)].

This huge panel covers everything below R1b-U106 except the R1b-L48 group. A separate panel for R1b-L48 is available here (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=16589). With this DNA test we start with 5 key SNPs
Z18
Z381
DF98
DF96
Z301
and then we work down the branches iteratively until we have found your position on the given tree.

The test is completed when the unique phylogenetic position on the tree has been determined.

See this tree diagram to understand the groupings in this panel:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6337&stc=1

A PDF document of this diagram is available [here (http://www.yseq.net/images/trees/R1b-U106%28xL48%29_tree.pdf)].

Thomas Krahn (owner of YSEQ.net) has alleged that

[...] In case there will be another downstream SNP that's relevant for you in
the future FTDNA panel, we will add it for free when it comes out.

Thomas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/conversations/messages/37482

I do not know if this claim of free testing for downstream SNPs will be honoured or not, or if I am even interpreting that post correctly. I have vague memories that a similar claim was once made by FTDNA back in 2006.

VinceT
10-16-2015, 01:16 AM
^ The "R1b-U106(xL48) Panel" at YSEQ.net is likewise priced at $99.00 US, but is expected to remain so.

VinceT
10-16-2015, 02:46 AM
^ The "R1b-U106(xL48) Panel" at YSEQ.net is likewise priced at $99.00 US, but is expected to remain so.

... My expectations have been proven wrong:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/conversations/messages/37580

YSEQ has just released an October special for the R1b-U106 Panel:


Now the R1b-U106 Panel *includes* the R1b-L48 Panel (at no extra cost).
The price is temporarily lowered to $69.


http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=18643


Here is the list of SNPs that are covered on the tree by the combined
U106 & L48 panel combo:


U106/S21
S11493
A2150
Z17640
S18632
S11320
Y15804
FGC396
Z27230
FGC398
L199.1
S12025
FGC12040
S16361
FGC15048
S17339
S25007
FGC3861/Z8056
A1243
FGC14877
A561
A560
A565
FGC22182
FGC14878
FGC3862/S1855
L217.1/S1849.1
FGC17464
A4657
FGC17467
FGC17461
A4645
Z18/S493
A6915 (replacing FGC7637)
S6317
FGC5797
ZP92
S7047
S11601
S19726
DF95/S21484
CTS2207/S3519
CTS10076/S4026
Y15644/ZP84
Y15995/ZP121
Z31375
ZP124
A2277
A2278
S17721
Z372/S375
S2348=PF7391
S4037
ZP132
ZP74/FGC13401
ZP133
ZP65
ZP91
S7015
ZP136
S5970
S14553
S4031
S3207/ZP50
S5673
ZP108/FGC36325
A683/ZP48
ZP51/Y15475
S5671
S5690
CTS5533
S4034/CTS2158
S3201
S6979
L257/S186
Z8190/S5741
S23106
S4052
S23346
Z375
Z8191/ZP8
S5739
FGC14794/ZP78
FGC14798/ZP89
S5443
A512/ZP53
A523
A511/ZP62
A510
S5750
A684/ZP33
FGC15269/ZP9
A669
FGC15271/ZP10
Z381/S263
A7220 (replacing M1994)
S22641
Z156/S264
S3311/CTS11337
A7172
S5520
FGC11662
FGC11660
FGC11674
S5556
A7252 (replacing S9397)
S5560
Z306/S497
Z304/S265
DF98
CTS7550
Z4303
L127.2
S18823
S22069
M6509
FGC15238
S8350
A6535
A7175
S11739
S23139
A7180
S1911
FGC13445
FGC13450
S10621
PH589
S15847
A7186
S1894
FGC14776
BY650
S1903
A7197
S4004
A685
A7206
FGC14814
A7207
DF96/S1809
L6
FGC23212
FGC23205
FGC13326
A7212
S22047
S19552
FGC13602
FGC13595
FGC13609
FGC13606
S25234
S16265
S10185
FGC12365 (replacing L93)
FGC13324
FGC17500
S11477
P89.2
YFS154896
S11515
S15663
FGC8383
FGC13167
FGC13171
L1/S26
S6961
A226
A317
S1791
A415
A410
A680
A671
Z301/S499
S9891
FGC20667
FGC20691
Z155/L259
Z154
FGC8507
S1688
U198/S29
S1691
S1686
S25941
S16994
S16906
S15627
DF89
CTS4089
S1687/DF93
S9787
L48/S162
A6703
L693
CTS3104
S5918
FGC17279
A6705
A2425
S23189
S4415/CTS8234
S10271
A6706
A2426
S19342
S18372
L200
S9355
S5681
S21607
A762
A5321
A765
A2134
PF4934
L47/S170
L44/S171
L163/S352
FGC6218
FGC6196
A6714
L46/S172
L45/S353
L493
L292
Z159
S8368
FGC15335
FGC15332
A1142
S9257/Z4714
CTS6353/S3886
S3251
FGC17296
FGC17297
Z17913
PH4355
FGC33315
S6934
A6715
CTS3553
FGC8579
FGC8601
FGC8573
A689
FGC8587
Z158
Z9/S268
S22294
S4103
Z30/S271
Z2/S511
S22165
S15510
Y7369
S16218
S20054
S9342
PF5143
CTS9539
Z7/S272
CTS10893/S3595
FGC924
A6389
S27458
S6898
A294
A295
A6886
Y10793
FGC918
FGC934
A6896
FGC921
FGC17852
Z8/S515
FGC5264
FGC5254
FGC5253
S12035
S9565
S26379
FGC17517 (replacing S3510)
S794
Z11/S274
S1774
PF889/M10044
S16701
Z12/S385
Z383
A5616
CTS10742
FGC12057
L148/S173
S18890
CTS4569
FGC12058
A687
Z344/S514
FGC29397
A300/FGC15573
A299
Z6/S276
A96/FGC10292
S10415
S18951
S3262/CTS6428
A6904
Z346/S512
S5628/DF101
S5239/DF102
A6906
S5245
FGC12993
A321
S5246
FGC15254
Z343/S387
CTS3791/S3297
FGC11780
S6881
CTS5601/S3933
S1355
S20321/FGC4150
CTS7080/S3334
FGC4161
CTS7678/S3935
Y15631
BY118
Z331/S1743
FGC12346
A6910
Z330/S505
Z326
A5588
A5012
A5017
S7780
A5019
A5870
A6537
FGC18842
S21728
A656
A655
PF740
A312
Z8172 (replacing Z319/S1741)
BY556
FGC13492
FGC15321
FGC15315
A2269
FGC363
Z81/S381
FGC564
S10817
S3199/CTS9
Z5054
FGC539
L188


Those are 355 SNPs. All of them have a known location at the tree and
can be found at the tree graphics at the YSEQ website (http://www.yseq.net).


Thomas

Gerry A
10-24-2015, 07:50 AM
Hi Vince T

I just wanted to thank you for the heads up on the YSEQ bargain. I have wondered about my R1b-U106* designation from 23andme and wanted more clarity. I should have results by early December I assume.

Gerry A

VinceT
12-27-2015, 10:05 PM
Dr. Angelika Kritz, Senior Scientist at ScotlandsDNA (https://www.scotlandsdna.com/), had released their updated Chromo2 phylogeny to the R1b-U106 Research Group. They are available at our Yahoo group's file repository here (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/files/Chromo2%20Raw%20Data%20Files/), but you need to log with a Yahoo account ID to view them.

Of interest to current and potential R-U106/S21* haplogroup members, is that they locate S19589 upstream of S11493.

YSEQ has made S19589 available for testing at http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=23102


Vince T.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
12-28-2015, 08:51 PM
I recently received this from Cymru (Britain's) DNA in response to an enquiry :-
"Your S11136 subtype is most common in men with paternal ancestry from England (0.7%) compared to Wales (0.4%), Scotland and Ireland (0.2%), with the highest frequency in SE England (1.5). We have recently identified a subtype cluster below S11136, defined by the SNP PF740 and seen in approximately 1/5th of S11136+ customers – but you do not carry this marker."
I really must get in touch with the U106 project to check which further test might be most appropriate for me as I understand new tests are being developed, I thought I saw mention of a Z326 test? A while ago Big Y or FGC Elite 2 test was mentioned in relation to possible identification of a new regional haplogroup. I find all these tests confusing sorry. :)

VinceT
12-29-2015, 12:50 AM
I recently received this from Cymru (Britain's) DNA in response to an enquiry :-
"Your S11136 subtype is most common in men with paternal ancestry from England (0.7%) compared to Wales (0.4%), Scotland and Ireland (0.2%), with the highest frequency in SE England (1.5). We have recently identified a subtype cluster below S11136, defined by the SNP PF740 and seen in approximately 1/5th of S11136+ customers – but you do not carry this marker."
I really must get in touch with the U106 project to check which further test might be most appropriate for me as I understand new tests are being developed, I thought I saw mention of a Z326 test? A while ago Big Y or FGC Elite 2 test was mentioned in relation to possible identification of a new regional haplogroup. I find all these tests confusing sorry. :)

Your question is off-topic for this thread. Since your haplogroup is under R1b-Z381, you should open a new thread for this under its dedicated sub-forum at http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?118-R1b-Z381

Also, please feel free to pose questions to the general R1b-U106 Project forum hosted at Yahoo: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/

But I'll digress since I can't move your question over....

The official draft tree for the R1b-U106 Project is at https://app.box.com/s/afqsrrnvv2d51msqcz2o
It shows two known clades below S11136, one defined by A656 (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=4330), the other by FGC18850. PF740 is located downstream of FGC18850.

(https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/)FTDNA does have an R-Z326 SNP Pack, where I've underlined the additional SNPs of interest to you. FGC18850 is not included, but its equivalent FGC18862 is. Since there are so few relevant to you, you may want to seriously consider Big-Y or Y-Elite 2.0 instead to discover new SNPs directly relevant to your own paternal lineage.

R-Z326 SNP Pack



Includes the following SNPs on the haplotree:
U106, Z381, L48, Z9, Z327, Z331, L47, U198, Z156, L1, Z18, Z8, Z326, Z329, Z330, Z337, CTS2509, Z319, Z325, Z8167, Z8165, Z8168, Z8169, A5011, A5012, A5014, A5015, A5017, A5018, A5019, A5869, A5870, A655, A656, BY557, FGC10367, FGC15316, FGC15317, FGC15320, FGC15321, FGC15325, FGC18842, FGC363, FGC531, FGC539, FGC543, FGC547, FGC561, FGC564, FGC7522, L188, S11136, S21728, S23955, S3565, S3980, S7780, Z324, Z5053, Z5054, Z5055, Z8166, Z8171, Z8172

Includes the following SNPs that are NOT on the haplotree:
CTS12135, BY3324, BY3325, BY3326, A2268, A2269, A2271, A2272, A2273, A312, A5588, A5590, A5591, A5592, A6536, A6537, A6538, A657, A877, BY556, CTS1415, CTS2361, CTS8536, FGC13492, FGC15315, FGC18860, FGC18862, FGC34922, FGC34923, FGC34924, FGC555, L1251, M8378, PF740, S10817, S11906, S19554, S27466, S3199, S508, Z12251, Z27231, Z308, Z318, Z5052, Z80, Z81

Cofgene
12-29-2015, 11:28 AM
Wait about one more week before ordering the Z326 pack. Yesterday I worked out with FTDNA what SNPs would be on the next version of the pack. About 40 new ones are being added. Not many in the region around PF740 since we need additional Big-Y results to create the branches for that British Isle region.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
12-31-2015, 07:27 AM
Wait about one more week before ordering the Z326 pack. Yesterday I worked out with FTDNA what SNPs would be on the next version of the pack. About 40 new ones are being added. Not many in the region around PF740 since we need additional Big-Y results to create the branches for that British Isle region.

Thank you for the reply. I've been advised by the U106 project group that the Elite 2 test should be the most productive in terms of research. I can't see this test listed by FTDNA, so I have contacted them for advice. Apologies for posting on the wrong thread. I'm not that familiar with the subject.

MacUalraig
12-31-2015, 08:02 AM
Thank you for the reply. I've been advised by the U106 project group that the Elite 2 test should be the most productive in terms of research. I can't see this test listed by FTDNA, so I have contacted them for advice. Apologies for posting on the wrong thread. I'm not that familiar with the subject.

Y Elite 2 is sold by Full Genomes and covers more of the Y than 'Big Y'. Once you have done it you can share and compare on www.yfull.com or with other haplogroup specific trees/sites.

https://www.fullgenomes.com/

The CEO of FGC is himself U106 (Justin Loe).

northkerry
12-31-2015, 12:28 PM
If you take the Elite 2 test you will have a problem persuading your matches to take it. It is expensive. A lot of testers would like to see the Big Y reduced in price to enable those with less pocket money to buy it.


Thank you for the reply. I've been advised by the U106 project group that the Elite 2 test should be the most productive in terms of research. I can't see this test listed by FTDNA, so I have contacted them for advice. Apologies for posting on the wrong thread. I'm not that familiar with the subject.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
12-31-2015, 01:47 PM
If you take the Elite 2 test you will have a problem persuading your matches to take it. It is expensive. A lot of testers would like to see the Big Y reduced in price to enable those with less pocket money to buy it.

Having tested once with Cymru DNA and found the information limited, I thought I would take one further test which will be my last. Really I'm just curious about the origins of my sub-group (S11136) and had the impression Elite 2 would be the most productive and possibly helpful to others. It is a bit of a minefield for those with limited knowledge of the subject, you think you are covering all bases, but obviously not.:) As you say, the price is high and you might think such tests would be more competitively priced if they also help others. I will have to consider whether it is worth my while doing any further testing. Thanks for the observations.

VinceT
01-01-2016, 01:08 AM
If you take the Elite 2 test you will have a problem persuading your matches to take it. It is expensive. A lot of testers would like to see the Big Y reduced in price to enable those with less pocket money to buy it.

Well, the Y-Elite test is not as expensive as it was during the first few batches in early 2013. The regular price has gone down about 40% since then.

But for those who are interested in testing Y-Elite 2.0 with Full Genomes Corp., the coupon code Winter15FGC will grant a $100 US discount until January 15th 2016, reducing the price to $675 US plus shipping. After that, members of R1b-U106/S21 can use the coupon code U1FGC for a $50 US discount, reducing the price to $725 US plus shipping.

Regardless of price, I definitely recommend it over Big-Y.

Further discussion regarding Full Genomes Corp. can be directed here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?742-Full-Y-Chromosome-Sequencing-Phase-III-Pilot).

miiser
01-01-2016, 01:25 AM
Having tested once with Cymru DNA and found the information limited, I thought I would take one further test which will be my last. Really I'm just curious about the origins of my sub-group (S11136) and had the impression Elite 2 would be the most productive and possibly helpful to others. It is a bit of a minefield for those with limited knowledge of the subject, you think you are covering all bases, but obviously not.:) As you say, the price is high and you might think such tests would be more competitively priced if they also help others. I will have to consider whether it is worth my while doing any further testing. Thanks for the observations.

Both Big Y and Elite 2 will give you more Y-DNA data than you will ever need to define your position in the tree in relation to others who have tested. Elite provides greater coverage and will discover more SNPs than Big Y. But the reality is that neither test is likely to reveal anything new about the origin of your haplogroup. There's a lot more to genealogical discovery than just discovering SNPs and defining the tree structure. To understand origins, you need many more participants in genetic genealogy than we currently have (probably on the order of 10X or 100X), you need well documented genealogies for your matches to accurately define where they're from, and you'll probably need many more ancient genomes from dead guys to define what haplogroups were where and when.

Doing a Big Y or Elite 2.0 test will discover more SNPs and precisely define your position within the tree of people who have done Y-DNA testing. It probably won't tell you anything new about who your ancestors were or where they lived. If your goal is simply to discover "the origins of my sub-group (S11136)", then don't waste any money doing a NGS test. This won't bring you any closer to the goal.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-01-2016, 09:15 AM
Both Big Y and Elite 2 will give you more Y-DNA data than you will ever need to define your position in the tree in relation to others who have tested. Elite provides greater coverage and will discover more SNPs than Big Y. But the reality is that neither test is likely to reveal anything new about the origin of your haplogroup. There's a lot more to genealogical discovery than just discovering SNPs and defining the tree structure. To understand origins, you need many more participants in genetic genealogy than we currently have (probably on the order of 10X or 100X), you need well documented genealogies for your matches to accurately define where they're from, and you'll probably need many more ancient genomes from dead guys to define what haplogroups were where and when.

Doing a Big Y or Elite 2.0 test will discover more SNPs and precisely define your position within the tree of people who have done Y-DNA testing. It probably won't tell you anything new about who your ancestors were or where they lived. If your goal is simply to discover "the origins of my sub-group (S11136)", then don't waste any money doing a NGS test. This won't bring you any closer to the goal.

I appreciate the clear advice.Thank you. I had thought, perhaps a bit simplistically, that the geographical distribution of possible matches in the UK and Europe could possibly give some indication. As I'm getting on a bit, I may never find out, other than likely to be "Saxon". :)

miiser
01-01-2016, 10:27 AM
I appreciate the clear advice.Thank you. I had thought, perhaps a bit simplistically, that the geographical distribution of possible matches in the UK and Europe could possibly give some indication. As I'm getting on a bit, I may never find out, other than likely to be "Saxon". :)

I suggest you review the U106 FTDNA project DNA results: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106?iframe=yresults

Toward the end of the Y-DNA table there are some groups labelled "Z9>Z331>Z330>Z329>Z326> FGC18842". If your terminal SNP is S11136, then these individuals are the same ones that would be among your Big Y or Elite 2.0 matches. An NGS test may tell you that you group more closely with some of these individuals than with others. But this won't reveal much, if anything, about the history of your haplogroup. There just aren't anywhere near enough testers to flesh out details regarding the geographic distribution of the various haplogroups below FGC18842. And your own personal test won't add anything to the known history of older, larger haplogroups.

I'm sure there is already quite a bit of speculation regarding the history of some of the intermediate haplogroups below U106 from Z9 down. I suggest you search on this forum and elsewhere online to read up on them.

If you've got money burning a hole in your pocket and you're very interested in the details of SNPs and haplotree structure, go ahead and do an NGS test just for kicks. Just don't expect it to reveal anything new about the history of your ancestors.

Cofgene
01-01-2016, 11:09 AM
An NGS test may tell you that you group more closely with some of these individuals than with others. But this won't reveal much, if anything, about the history of your haplogroup. There just aren't anywhere near enough testers to flesh out details regarding the geographic distribution of the various haplogroups below FGC18842. And your own personal test won't add anything to the known history of older, larger haplogroups.


Miiser, You are flat out off base with these types of negative comments. Without test results one cannot develop the information about the distributions to create the story. Having results refined closer to genealogical time and locations is needed to flesh out the details. Additional results DO ADD INFORMATION to the older haplogroups on the twig. The number of individuals associated with a specific haplogroup can alter the overall distribution and movement dispersal distributions for older haplogroups. Now when we have 50+% of the U106+ lineages fully tested maybe some of your comments might make sense. But for right now they do not represent what the U106 project is doing and encouraging others to do in terms of researching their pasts.

miiser
01-01-2016, 12:05 PM
Miiser, You are flat out off base with these types of negative comments. Without test results one cannot develop the information about the distributions to create the story. Having results refined closer to genealogical time and locations is needed to flesh out the details. Additional results DO ADD INFORMATION to the older haplogroups on the twig. The number of individuals associated with a specific haplogroup can alter the overall distribution and movement dispersal distributions for older haplogroups. Now when we have 50+% of the U106+ lineages fully tested maybe some of your comments might make sense.

This is not a negative comment. It is an accurate expectation of what NGS will provide for this individual. Please take a look at this individual's terminal haplogroup and placement within the tree. What are the probable outcomes of an NGS test? How will any of these possible outcomes provide any information regarding the history of his haplogroup? Please tell me the likely outcomes of an NGS test, and specifically what those outcomes will say about the haplogroup's or this individual lineage's history. I really honestly want to know what you think this test is likely to produce in terms of understanding this specific haplogroup's history. How, specifically, will any of the likely outcomes alter the distribution of any of the relevant haplogroups? What would the values of such geographic distributions be before and after this individual's test?

John already knows he's S11136 and he already knows where his lineage is from. Nothing is going to change in any of the haplogroups higher than S11136, because it's already defined. Refining phylogeny below S11136 cannot possibly affect the phylogeny or distribution of any haplogroup upstream of S11136.

How, specifically, would any of the possible test outcomes result in the discovery "of the origins of haplogroups S11136", which John has expressed as his goal?

I understand that some people within this hobby are obsessed with SNP identification and tree structure, just as Rain Man is obsessed with the number of toothpicks in a pile. This is a psychological illness. I also understand that some people in this forum have the agenda of encouraging every single tester to take the largest test possible, regardless of the tester's goals, because those people either want the data for their own usage or have something to gain from the purchase.


But for right now they do not represent what the U106 project is doing and encouraging others to do in terms of researching their pasts.

Your comment regarding the views of "the U106 project" seems to suggest that the U106 admins discourage open discussion and dissenting views from their own. I hope that this is not the case. But if it is, it would suggest that the admins do in fact have a private agenda of their own, independent of the best interests of the project members.

Tree structure alone is not generally genealogically, historically, or anthropologically informative. For many testers, NGS will reveal exactly zero information about their lineage's history.

I don't want to divert this thread into an argument. John asked for test advice, and I've given John my honest, frank advice, as have you and others. If you want to argue the value of NGS, I suggest we take the discussion to another thread.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-01-2016, 01:27 PM
Apologies friends, I didn't intend to start an argument and I feel bad about it, particularly as I posted on the wrong thread. :)
Most people here are obviously very knowledgeable on the subject, but some people like myself don't have that level of knowledge and have to be guided by others. Sometimes the different advice is hard to follow if you don't know the subject well. I appreciate all the comments made. At the end of the day it is my responsibility to find out what I can and make an informed decision.

Curleyprow
01-09-2018, 07:08 PM
Miiser is of course absolutely correct.The fact is that modern geographical distributions of SNPs are precisely and only that. They tell us little about ancient distributions unless they are backed up by evidence revealed through Y DNA findings from ancient specimens. For example, the Swedish battle axe finding of RISE . Here is a solitary ancient example (so far) of U106. Unless more evidence of this ancient type can be found there is very little modern haplogroup and SNP distributions can give me about my personal origins. For example I am U106 with S1855 as my terminal haplogroup. I know that I have Swedish ancestors dating back to the 16 th century. However, this is relatively modern evidence which cannot tell me, for example, despite the ancient singular evidence of Swedish U106, that my personal ancient origins derive from that country and were perhaps imported into the UK during the Swedish Viking expeditions to England( of which, incidentally, there were many).

Diego.Mòchen
08-26-2020, 07:50 AM
Hello all! I'm R-CTS5860, that come from S4037 and so on. Somebody has never seen this cluster?