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Fungene
01-25-2018, 12:28 AM
This is a thread for discussing any thoughts you might have on commercial testing company results or calculators you have tried out, as long as the discussion involves, in some way, attributions of Romanian ancestry. It is not restricted to 23andMe results.
If you have any additional insight that you have gathered from researching information (...other than Wikipedia) that could shed light on your Romanian ancestry, please feel free to let us know.

Fungene
01-25-2018, 03:20 PM
Continuing the discussion of Eastern European in Geno 2.0, from another thread, here are a few more things, and a comparison with FTDNA’s East Europe cluster.

Geno 2.0 description of Eastern European, from a customer's report:
“the Eastern European component comes partially from the preagricultural population of Europe—the earliest settlers, who arrived more than 30,000 years ago during the Upper Paleolithic period.”

I also looked at National Geographic’s Geno 2.0 description of the Eastern Europe component.
This is what it says:

"Eastern Europe:
This component of your ancestry originates in the plains that extend from the Danube River and the Black Sea north to the Baltic Sea and east to the Volga River and the Ural Mountains of Russia. Your ancestors who lived in this region thousands of years ago were likely hunters and gatherers who gradually adopted agriculture from their neighbors to the south and west. Some scientists believe that it was in this region of the world where horses were first domesticated."
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/regions-next-gen/

Quelle salade!

It continues:

“Today, this part of the world is associated with Slavic and Baltic cultures, as well as Russian, Polish, Ukrainian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Czech, Slovak, and German peoples.”

The FTDNA category is not quite as expansive, but still mixes in way too much:
“The East Europe cluster consists of an area encompassing present day Latvia, south to Ukraine, Romania, and the northern part of Bulgaria, west along the eastern edge of the Balkan states to Poland and the eastern half of Germany.”

The colored blob FTDNA uses to represent the cluster shows that they include all of the Czech Republic, Hungary, most of Austria, and some of Croatia and Serbia.
The description of the cluster continues with lengthy historical musings which, to be charitable, are best ignored.

Any thoughts on Geno 2.0 and FTDNA components? Does anyone find them useful?

Dumidre
01-26-2018, 12:17 AM
My thoughts are the same... there is so much diversity as far as language... but genetically, scientists finds us pretty similar... confusing (I'm still wrapping my head around it)...
Maybe we are all the same people... but, throughout history, language changed in order to communicate within ourselves, and our neighbors...
We see this phenomena as we speak... by the way, we all communicating in English in this forum... :)

Fungene
01-26-2018, 03:42 PM
My thoughts are the same... there is so much diversity as far as language... but genetically, scientists finds us pretty similar... confusing (I'm still wrapping my head around it)...
Maybe we are all the same people... but, throughout history, language changed in order to communicate within ourselves, and our neighbors...
We see this phenomena as we speak... by the way, we all communicating in English in this forum... :)

There is much wisdom in these words.
If I could reply in Romanian, I would. I have taught myself to read it to gain access to archaeological reports, but writing is a different matter.

If you are on this board, it might be because, like me, you are interested in new possibilities for understanding history and prehistory, and not just family ancestry.
Population genetics may offer new insights into thinking about a variety of peoples for whom history records are either inexistent, spotty, or written by a variety external observers who may have had conflicting interests. Population genetics together with systematic archaeological study could prove a potent combination in this regard. One of the areas in the world where that is likely to be true is Romania. And that is a very good thing.

Coming back to the descriptor in Geno 2.0. It is possible that what Geno 2.0 means by “Eastern European” is a population with some Ancient North Eurasian (ANE)-rich Eastern Hunter Gatherer ancestry. If so, the cluster should include the British and the Irish, for instance, since they have higher ANE ancestry than Romanians. That’s one of the reasons I find the “Eastern European” category mystifying.

Dumidre
01-26-2018, 05:02 PM
There is much wisdom to these words.
If I could reply in Romanian, I would. I have taught myself to read it to gain access to archaeological reports, but writing is a different matter.

If you are on this board, it might be because, like me, you are interested in new possibilities for understanding history and prehistory, and not just family ancestry.
Population genetics may offer new insights into thinking about a variety of peoples for whom history records are either inexistent, spotty, or written by a variety external observers who may have had conflicting interests. Population genetics together with systematic archaeological study could prove a potent combination in this regard. One of the areas in the world where that is likely to be true is Romania. And that is a very good thing.

Coming back to the descriptor in Geno 2.0. It is possible that what Geno 2.0 means by “Eastern European” is a population with some Ancient North Eurasian (ANE)-rich Eastern Hunter Gatherer ancestry. If so, the cluster should include the British and the Irish, for instance, since they have higher ANE ancestry than Romanians. That’s one of the reasons I find the “Eastern European” category mystifying.

Same here.

Dumidre
01-26-2018, 06:45 PM
About the Eastern European category: A lot of people see Eastern European=Slavic. Some consider (Geno 2.0 also) Romanians having an average of 48% Slavic DNA because of that. Romanians were called Daco-Romans for centuries... Unfortunately, we don't have any DNA readings from Dacians because they were cremating their dead ones... I know that Dacians did not just evaporate; Romanians and people from the Balkans carry their genes... because of no remains, we don't know which ones though...
About the Slavic DNA makeup: the main difference between North Slavs and South Slavs is the percentage of I-L621 yDNA and the subsequent subclades in their genes. The South Slavs have lot more I-L621 than the one in the North. Is it because they mixed with the Dacians/Thracians... very plausible, but because we don't have any dacian samples, we don't know for sure. If we would, the 44% "Slavic" DNA in Romanians would probably shrink to 20% maybe, and that would be consistent with 18-20% Slavic influence in the Romanian Language. Just my opinion...

vettor
01-26-2018, 07:38 PM
About the Eastern European category: A lot of people see Eastern European=Slavic. Some consider Romanians having an average of 44% Slavic DNA because of that. Romanians were called Daco-Romans for centuries... Unfortunately, we don't have any DNA readings from Dacians because they were cremating their dead ones... I know that Dacians did not just evaporate; Romanians and people from the Balkans carry their genes... because of no remains, we don't know which one though...
About the Slavic DNA makeup: the main difference between North Slavs and South Slavs is the percentage of I-L621 yDNA and the subsequent subclades in their genes. The South Slavs have lot more I-L621 than the one in the North. Is it because they mixed with the Dacians/Thracians... very plausible, but because we don't have any dacian samples, we don't know for sure. If we would, the 44% "Slavic" DNA in Romanians would probably shrink to 20% maybe, and that would be consistent with 18-20% Slavic influence in the Romanian Language. Just my opinion...

The key to who are the dacian/romanian is in finding out what they spoke before learning Latin

Fungene
01-27-2018, 04:30 PM
About the Eastern European category: A lot of people see Eastern European=Slavic. Some consider (Geno 2.0 also) Romanians having an average of 48% Slavic DNA because of that. Romanians were called Daco-Romans for centuries... Unfortunately, we don't have any DNA readings from Dacians because they were cremating their dead ones... I know that Dacians did not just evaporate; Romanians and people from the Balkans carry their genes... because of no remains, we don't know which ones though...
About the Slavic DNA makeup: the main difference between North Slavs and South Slavs is the percentage of I-L621 yDNA and the subsequent subclades in their genes. The South Slavs have lot more I-L621 than the one in the North. Is it because they mixed with the Dacians/Thracians... very plausible, but because we don't have any dacian samples, we don't know for sure. If we would, the 44% "Slavic" DNA in Romanians would probably shrink to 20% maybe, and that would be consistent with 18-20% Slavic influence in the Romanian Language. Just my opinion...

You are right to bring up the Dacian connection. Here are just a few thoughts:

There are Dacian-era remains. Here is an accessible source, written in English.
http://hiperboreeajournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Pogacias.pdf

The issue of Dacian remains is incidental to the article, but it does, indirectly, point to different places one could start looking for samples to analyze. There are bones available from a Dacian necropolis in Hunedoara (52 individuals) and a Getic settlement near Brad, Moldavia (4 individuals).
Most of the 12 males identified in the Hunedoara necropolis had “very poor inventory.” Yet they were buried in the center, while the remains of 10 individuals identified as female, whose grave inventory was also poor, were located at the periphery of the necropolis.
Isotopic analysis could give information about mobility and nutrition status; the latter can be used to infer social class.

Part of the problem for Dacian studies is that “Dacian” is used as a catch-all term for anybody living north of the Danube who was not Roman. It then gets extended in popular accounts in Romania to practically any culture that exhibited steppe-like characteristics, leading to the “Dacomania” one sees in some quarters of the popular press in Romania: anything remotely Indo-European is Dacian, so Dacians conquered the world, and Dacia was the center of the universe.
No serious Romanian scholar believes this. But the view was helped along by well-meaning archaeologists of earlier ages. The bulk of Vasile Parvan’s GETICA (1926), suggests that the Dacians and the Scythians were actually quite similar. But then, Parvan summarily asserts, without evidence, that the Dacians were autochthonous and the Scythians foreign. The Dacians are “us,” the Scythians are “not-us.” Let me repeat this. That Dacians are autochthonous in the current territory of Romania is a bare assertion.

Coming back to genetics, it would be easy to show how similar or not the Dacian warrior class was to their competitors, the Scythians. If I were to guess, I would think that one could tie the Dacians to the Andronovo horizon, just to the east of the Srubnaya. If so, Dacians would have higher steppe ancestry than the autochtonous population in the current territory of Romania they came to dominate for a few centuries.
It looks like we don’t have the remains needed to test this hypothesis; my guess is that one could direct resources strategically to do so. If it often said that there are no remains from Cucuteni culture; yet I find reports that do identify them. The same would go for Dacian remains, or at least Dacian-era remains. More might be identifiable with proper effort.

It is possible that the remains at Hunedoara are those of individuals not belonging to the Dacian warrior or warrior-religious caste, but somehow in their service. Perhaps they were of mixed ancestry. (Dacian men were notoriously polygynous.) If so, one would expect these remains to have somewhat lower steppe ancestry in comparison with Scythian samples (which is something we have), but higher in comparison with the average modern Romanian. It is quite possible that the infant remains from this necropolis, especially, could have relatively high steppe ancestry in comparison with modern Romanians.

If Romanians are really serious about Dacian studies, they would need to analyze these and similar samples. The results would at least give us material to disprove some hypotheses (including the ones I suggest here) and produce new ones, rather than repeat old saws about Dacians.

Oh, and BTW, I haven’t even begun to address the mess of terminology: Dacian, Thracian, etc. (Former Romanian president Ion Iliescu’s claim to fame will forever be his unforgettable explanation to Americans, in equally unforgettable English, “The ducks come from the trucks.”)

On Dacian-era remains, a reference to follow up would be:
Valeriu Sirbu, S. A. Luca. 2007. Vestigiile dacice de al Hunedoara.
http://bjiasi.ebibliophil.ro/carte/vestigiile-dacice-de-la-hunedoara-gradina-castelului-necropola-si-sau-incinta-sacra-dealul-sanpetru-asezarea

Fungene
01-27-2018, 06:00 PM
The key to who are the dacian/romanian is in finding out what they spoke before learning Latin

That’s also an important element to the discussion. The more one digs into an issue, the more one finds that things that people thought were settled might be open for discussion.

A case in point: beliefs about the evolution of the Romanian language. The most up-to-date, extensive work in this area is Mihai Vinereanu’s:
Mihai Vinereanu’s Dictionar Etimologic (2008) and his Radacini Nostratice in Limba Romana (2010) are available as e-publications.

The first work is the only complete etymological dictionary of Romanian based on more recent research on the reconstruction of Indo-European languages. The earlier attempts by Alexandru Cihac , Alexandru Cioranescu, Heimann Hariton Tiktin, and Sextil Puscariu are quite a bit older and are perhaps more the efforts of dilettantes.

That Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian was an Indo-European language belonging to the Italo-Celtic group is the guiding hypothesis of Vinereanu’s dictionary (his first book). With this hypothesis, he can more comprehensively account for the etymology of Romanian words than rival accounts, which see Romanian as being derived from Latin. Under that rival hypothesis, the majority of words (over 85%) would be derived from other languages. That would make Romanian a creole (like Haitian.) But Romanian syntax suggests that Romanian is not a creole.

That’s the outline of his general argument (the conclusion is obvious). The Dictionar is the go-to resource that Romanian linguists ought to be debating. As for anything, there is sure to be room for serious debate. Not much is happening on that front.

A few points. This work should not be put in the same category as revisionistic attempts to argue that French and Spanish are not derived from Latin. Vinereanu’s work is independent of these efforts. Also, his work can be read even if one brackets the author’s personal beliefs that Indo-European languages were brought to Europe with the process of Neolithization and that Indo-European languages are part of a larger Nostratic macrofamily of languages.

In fact, if ever find time, I will write a few comments on why I think Radacine, Vinereanu’s second work, is particularly intriguing in spite of his erroneous belief about the Neolithic in Europe.

vettor
01-27-2018, 08:21 PM
That’s also an important element to the discussion. The more one digs into an issue, the more one finds that things that people thought were settled might be open for discussion.

A case in point: beliefs about the evolution of the Romanian language. The most up-to-date, extensive work in this area is Mihai Vinereanu’s:
Mihai Vinereanu’s Dictionar Etimologic (2008) and his Radacini Nostratice in Limba Romana (2010) are available as e-publications.

The first work is the only complete etymological dictionary of Romanian based on more recent research on the reconstruction of Indo-European languages. The earlier attempts by Alexandru Cihac , Alexandru Cioranescu, Heimann Hariton Tiktin, and Sextil Puscariu are quite a bit older and are perhaps more the efforts of dilettantes.

That Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian was an Indo-European language belonging to the Italo-Celtic group is the guiding hypothesis of Vinereanu’s dictionary (his first book). With this hypothesis, he can more comprehensively account for the etymology of Romanian words than rival accounts, which see Romanian as being derived from Latin. Under that rival hypothesis, the majority of words (over 85%) would be derived from other languages. That would make Romanian a creole (like Haitian.) But Romanian syntax suggests that Romanian is not a creole.

That’s the outline of his general argument (the conclusion is obvious). The Dictionar is the go-to resource that Romanian linguists ought to be debating. As for anything, there is sure to be room for serious debate. Not much is happening on that front.

A few points. This work should not be put in the same category as revisionistic attempts to argue that French and Spanish are not derived from Latin. Vinereanu’s work is independent of these efforts. Also, his work can be read even if one brackets the author’s personal beliefs that Indo-European languages were brought to Europe with the process of Neolithization and that Indo-European languages are part of a larger Nostratic macrofamily of languages.

In fact, if ever find time, I will write a few comments on why I think Radacine, Vinereanu’s second work, is particularly intriguing in spite of his erroneous belief about the Neolithic in Europe.

thank you
https://limbaromana.org/en/introduction-to-the-etymological-dictionary-of-the-romanian-language/

i will read the above

Fungene
01-27-2018, 11:03 PM
thank you
https://limbaromana.org/en/introduction-to-the-etymological-dictionary-of-the-romanian-language/

i will read the above

The site itself is far from professional. It is no substitute for the actual books. But at least, it is in English, more or less.

Dumidre
01-29-2018, 05:09 PM
That’s also an important element to the discussion. The more one digs into an issue, the more one finds that things that people thought were settled might be open for discussion.

A case in point: beliefs about the evolution of the Romanian language. The most up-to-date, extensive work in this area is Mihai Vinereanu’s:
Mihai Vinereanu’s Dictionar Etimologic (2008) and his Radacini Nostratice in Limba Romana (2010) are available as e-publications.

The first work is the only complete etymological dictionary of Romanian based on more recent research on the reconstruction of Indo-European languages. The earlier attempts by Alexandru Cihac , Alexandru Cioranescu, Heimann Hariton Tiktin, and Sextil Puscariu are quite a bit older and are perhaps more the efforts of dilettantes.

That Thraco-Illyrian-Dacian was an Indo-European language belonging to the Italo-Celtic group is the guiding hypothesis of Vinereanu’s dictionary (his first book). With this hypothesis, he can more comprehensively account for the etymology of Romanian words than rival accounts, which see Romanian as being derived from Latin. Under that rival hypothesis, the majority of words (over 85%) would be derived from other languages. That would make Romanian a creole (like Haitian.) But Romanian syntax suggests that Romanian is not a creole.

That’s the outline of his general argument (the conclusion is obvious). The Dictionar is the go-to resource that Romanian linguists ought to be debating. As for anything, there is sure to be room for serious debate. Not much is happening on that front.

A few points. This work should not be put in the same category as revisionistic attempts to argue that French and Spanish are not derived from Latin. Vinereanu’s work is independent of these efforts. Also, his work can be read even if one brackets the author’s personal beliefs that Indo-European languages were brought to Europe with the process of Neolithization and that Indo-European languages are part of a larger Nostratic macrofamily of languages.

In fact, if ever find time, I will write a few comments on why I think Radacine, Vinereanu’s second work, is particularly intriguing in spite of his erroneous belief about the Neolithic in Europe.

Another point of view about what Dacian Language (or proto-language) might have been sounded like, is coming all the way from Lithuania... (that would explain some "Slavic" loan words from Romanian language been in fact old Dacian... oh, and combined with proto Slavic being a Balto-Slavic language):

http://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm

JerryS.
01-30-2018, 01:01 AM
so, what are the main contributors to Romanian DNA and what are the minor contributors?

Fungene
01-30-2018, 11:40 AM
so, what are the main contributors to Romanian DNA and what are the minor contributors?

That’s a good question, based on solid common sense. You’d think that someone would have already devised a research program to address it. If they have, I am not aware of it. There is still too much preoccupation with Romans and Dacians.

A very broad, back-of-the-envelope, amateur outline of an answer in terms of ancient populations, given everything available to people who frequent this Board — especially research papers from the past couple of years, but also information shared by individuals about commercial test results— could be this:
Probably, Romanians are by-and-large EEF with a substantial steppe contribution. They have a bit more of it (meaning, steppe) than Bulgarians; Northeast Romanians have even more. All things considered, and this is a big surprise for some Romanians, they have less steppe ancestry than Europeans farther to the north and west.
But this is a very broad reply. To be more precise, the correct answer is that there is no answer, for the moment. Not because the question is unanswerable, but because no one is working on it. Quoting Herodotus and Pomponius Mela won’t cut it.

Dumidre
01-30-2018, 03:38 PM
Not enough testing in my opinion...

Hellenthal et al, Science (2014) did some research... take a look:

http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/

Fungene
01-30-2018, 03:44 PM
Not enough testing in my opinion...

About that, you are right.

JerryS.
01-30-2018, 04:12 PM
I ask this because when I use the Oracle 4 population groups for several models, I get Romanian often as one of the four. I realize the Oracle 4 isn't any good for ethnicities less than 25%, and I have no Romanian ancestors.....

Dorkymon
01-30-2018, 06:58 PM
This is a thread for discussing any thoughts you might have on commercial testing company results or calculators you have tried out, as long as the discussion involves, in some way, attributions of Romanian ancestry. It is not restricted to 23andMe results.
If you have any additional insight that you have gathered from researching information (...other than Wikipedia) that could shed light on your Romanian ancestry, please feel free to let us know.

You might have seen the 23andme results (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme) that I've gathered from across Romania. My conclusion is that the Romanian admixture looks like a chronology of the people that passed (some remained), raided (some raped) and settled on the territory of what's now Romania and Moldova.

The primary mix for the average Romanian is formed from:

A sheep-herding population native to the Balkans (IMO, these may be representative of the Dacians and other proto-Balkanic people that they've assimilated)
Slavs, of the Ruthenian variety in the East and North (Ruthenians are still being assimilated into the Romanian population in Eastern Romania and especially in R. Moldova), Bulgarian in the South, Serbian in the Southwest
Steppe people who carried the extra steppe and introduced some East Asian into the mix (Pechenegs, Cumans, Tatars, Huns and Mongols)


In addition to these, there may be some regional variation on top, such as:

Central-European mix due to Hungarians
Northwestern mix due to Germans
Gagauz due to Turks (this is a continuum on the Western shore of the Black Sea, running from Moldova/Ukraine to Southern Bulgaria)
South Asian/MENA due to Gypsies

Fungene
01-30-2018, 07:26 PM
You might have seen the 23andme results (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme) that I've gathered
[/LIST]
Great job collecting that. I don't think I've seen anything similar online for other countries.
About what modern results show about what happened: It's still too early to tell. I am of the opinion that we will have to start from much earlier populations and move our way forward. The major studies on ancient DNA from 2015 onwards have set the groundwork. I see no research program in Romania, and that is what we will need.

Fungene
01-30-2018, 07:35 PM
I ask this because when I use the Oracle 4 population groups for several models, I get Romanian often as one of the four. I realize the Oracle 4 isn't any good for ethnicities less than 25%, and I have no Romanian ancestors.....

LOL! I think most of us have faced this issue. The 4-population Oracle for the Eurogenes K13, which is one the best for me, gives me all kinds of Italian populations; when it's not Tuscan, it is Italian Abruzzo, or South Italian. My Italian ancestors will be in good company with your Romanian ancestors in some alternate universe.

JerryS.
01-30-2018, 09:16 PM
LOL! I think most of us have faced this issue. The 4-population Oracle for the Eurogenes K13, which is one the best for me, gives me all kinds of Italian populations; when it's not Tuscan, it is Italian Abruzzo, or South Italian. My Italian ancestors will be in good company with your Romanian ancestors in some alternate universe.

LOL, I loaded my Ancestry data to MyHeritage and got absolutely no eastern European or Balkan, according to MyHeritage that is.

Fungene
01-30-2018, 10:56 PM
LOL, I loaded my Ancestry data to MyHeritage .
I've never tried MyHeritage. Do you recommend it?

JerryS.
01-31-2018, 12:08 AM
I've never tried MyHeritage. Do you recommend it?

hell no. LOL its now giving me 1.3% Nigerian. LOL

Fungene
03-14-2018, 04:52 PM
On comparisons between medieval elongated skull individuals and modern populations:

Several mentions of modern Romanians and Bulgarians in Veeramah, 2018, “Population genomic analysis of elongated skulls reveals extensive female-biased immigration in Early Medieval Bavaria” caught my attention. I thought the article would be relevant to a thread on Romanian genetics. Turns out, it is only marginally related to Romania or Bulgaria (although, judging by the spin in phys.org, one would think Romania and Bulgaria are of central interest.) But I’ll post this information anyway.

Thanks to alert DNA aficionados who share their efforts online:

User Matt (March 13, 2018), drawing on Global 25 suggests, “The Artificial Cranial Deformation (ACD) samples do indeed look very Southeast European, or more precisely at the modern day intersect of Central Europe-North Balkans.” http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2018/03/exotic-female-migrants-in-early.html. March 12, 2018. (Comments)

Anthrogenica’s LukacszM’s post offers more, using Eurogenes’ K36.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13759-PCA-with-Baiuvarian-samples-and-moderns

The information below is derived from the PCA in that post:

Comparison between individuals with intermediately elongated skulls and modern populations:
STR_355: between Wales and Cumbria
STR_220: between Holland and Mecklenburg
STR_360: closest to North Norway
STR_310: between central Europe and northern Italy

Comparison between individuals with elongated skulls and modern populations:
AED_125: between Austria and Central Romania
STR_228: between Hesse and Brabant
AED_513: Austria
NW_54: close to Italy Piedmont
BIM_ 33: close to Thuringia
STR_535: close to Italy Friuli
AEH_1: between Albania and Italy Abruzzo
AED_1108: between Macedonia and Albania

Fungene
06-08-2018, 05:12 PM
Here is information from a preprint useful for interpreting Moldovan, and of course, Romanian, calculator results.

All information is from Zheong et al. 2018. "Characterizing the genetic history of admixture across inner Eurasia"
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...27122.full.pdf (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/05/23/327122.full.pdf)

Zheong et al., Table S1. lists ten new samples of Moldovans, all from Căplani village in Ștefan Vodă District, Moldova: MOL-005, MOL-008, MOL-015, MOL-024, MOL-058, MOL-064, MOL-065, MOL-066, MOL-067, MOL-069.

The first illustration is from Zheong et al., and zooms in on a portion of Fig. S1. “PC1 separates western and eastern Eurasian populations…. PC2 separates eastern Eurasians along the north-south cline and also separates Europeans from West Asians.”

All the southeastern European samples are coded in red (in red: Rom for Romanian and Mld for Moldavian). Below the first illustration are the full PCA and the key for interpreting population names.

https://i.imgur.com/d4OKErX.png
https://i.imgur.com/h8CXZ9C.png


https://i.imgur.com/JFuClRE.png


The next illustration zooms in on Fig. S2. PC3 is intended to separate the West Asians (top) from the Europeans (bottom).

https://i.imgur.com/sqeuLIr.png

Below, the full PCA.

https://i.imgur.com/qxlkEYs.png

The Căplani Moldovans are looking very southeastern European.

No surprise: Romanians and Moldovans cluster with Europeans, more specifically with southeastern Europeans.

This has been known for some time. The news for us here is the ten new Moldovan samples.

Looks like FTDNA, still hanging on to its all-encompassing East Europe category, didn’t get the memo yet.

Fungene
06-08-2018, 05:21 PM
Just a reminder, the material in this thread is being posted in the international section so that people can respond in Romanian if they choose to.

Fungene
06-13-2018, 08:54 PM
Dorkymon has been busy modeling himself using Eurogenes Global 25.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13658-Ancient-DNA-from-Romania&p=414781&viewfull=1#post414781

Dorkymon: it seems that there is a running commentary with an interlocutor as you are going through the steps of modeling yourself using ancient samples. Could you give the general reader just a little background?

Dorkymon
06-13-2018, 08:55 PM
I tried to produce some fits with Global 25 based on my admixture. The models might make sense for this region overall.

----------------------------------------------
1) Neolithic and Yamnaya migration

Input references
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sg35KGlR8JRhXwOmQ_BpvoOK9RhL0o7UFg6-6kZVtIs/edit?usp=sharing

If you want to play around with this model, feel free to drop the Japanese and Eskimo references. Han eats them up anyway when the degree of penalisation is forced to 0 to account for intra-regional overlap (pen=0).


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Yamnaya_Samara:I0357 Yamnaya_Samara:I0370 Yamnaya_Samara:I0231
15.16141 16.43888 16.62792
Yamnaya_Samara:I0443 Yamnaya_Samara:I0444 Balkans_N:I2529
16.64321 16.76355 16.78688
Yamnaya_Samara:I0429 Balkans_N:I0634
17.63493 17.72987

[1] "distance%=4.0061"

Dorkymon

Yamnaya_Samara 48.2
Balkans_N 44.2
Iron_Gates_HG 4.6
Japanese 1.8
Eskimo_Naukan 0.8
Han 0.4


----------------------------------------------
2) Bronze Age (IN: Trypillia, Globular Amphora; OUT: Balkans Neolithic)
Since Trypillia:I926

https://i.imgur.com/nFeCBLW.png

is not really representative of the average and that's the only one I have, the following have been considered as Trypillian in order to get closer to the actual average as seen in Mathieson et al. 2018.
Our extra Trypillians are these 2 samples from Balkans_BA:

https://i.imgur.com/5QHFAi3.png
https://i.imgur.com/b15CwPp.png

Input references
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Pn6QnM1JWK2FWSAaOR5_yYAivszQa9oD0fNCV1on9yA/edit?usp=sharing


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Trypillia:adapted_I2175 Trypillia:adapted_Bul6
11.31006 11.41893
Trypillia:I1926 Yamnaya_Samara:I0357
12.96256 15.16141
Globular_Amphora:I2441 Trypillia:adapted_I1109
15.50558 16.04360
Yamnaya_Samara:I0370 Yamnaya_Samara:I0231
16.43888 16.62792

[1] "distance%=3.6477"

Dorkymon

Trypillia 58.4
Yamnaya_Samara 36.6
Han 2.6
Iron_Gates_HG 2
Onge 0.2
Pima 0.2


We can do better.


----------------------------------------------
3) Bronze Age (IN: Balkans_BA (minus I2163, who's like 3/4th Yamnaya), Poland_BA (minus I6537, which skews towards Balkans_BA); OUT: Trypillia, Globular Amphora)

We will run the script only with pen=0 in order to prevent the overlap between closely related groups (here Balkans_BA and Poland_BA).

ANI163 from Varna has been adapted into the Balkans_BA group in order to compensate for the clearly outlying I2163. ANI163 looks more logical, when compared with the rest of Balkans_BA.

https://i.imgur.com/rVo9p05.png
https://i.imgur.com/1m3u3yw.png

Input references
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RiQ0Bqlj9Gmzz9ugN1QW3yVd6Jg5q9A8KIZIHZdbpf0/edit?usp=sharing


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Balkans_BA:adapted_ANI163 Balkans_BA:I2165
5.639317 5.890353
Balkans_BA:I4332 Balkans_BA:I4331
7.405923 7.531860
Balkans_BA:I3313 Balkans_BA:I2520
8.371998 9.196043
Poland_BA:I6531 Poland_BA:I6579
9.435305 9.956505

pen=0

[1] "distance%=2.4347"

Dorkymon

Balkans_BA 80
Yamnaya_Samara 14.6
Han 4.8
Poland_BA 0.6

There's too much East Asian at pen=0, so the model can still be improved upon. Moving on.


----------------------------------------------
4) Bronze Age (IN: Yamnaya Ukraine (the one that's modelled as 100% steppe in Mathieson et. al 2018); OUT: Yamnaya Samara, Poland_BA, Han (I ran them separately and those that had even the smallest trace of non-East Asian/Siberian where removed)

https://i.imgur.com/xjQTETE.png

Input references
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jsT1S43Vm6ENNFZnj-Ak3IgPfDJWoYs89g0no2CAEho/edit?usp=sharing


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Balkans_BA:adapted_ANI163 Balkans_BA:I2165
5.639317 5.890353
Balkans_BA:I4332 Balkans_BA:I4331
7.405923 7.531860
Balkans_BA:I3313 Balkans_BA:I2520
8.371998 9.196043
Balkans_BA:I2163 Balkans_BA:I2176
10.163270 10.969873

[1] "distance%=3.4018"

Dorkymon

Balkans_BA 92
Yamnaya_Ukraine 4.8
Han 1.4
Pima 1.4
Onge 0.4

pen=0

[1] "distance%=2.5128"

Dorkymon

Balkans_BA 80.2
Yamnaya_Ukraine 15.4
Han 4.4


Hmm, it looks better now that it's ~3% East Asian/Siberian. The run without regularisation (pen=0) still overfits the Han with at least 1.5% more. Let's add Hungary_BA to see if anything changes.


----------------------------------------------
5) Bronze Age (IN: Hungary_BA)

We will run the script only with pen=0 in order to prevent the overlap between closely related groups (here Balkans_BA and Hungary_BA).

Input references
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gH7FmXNXt5dj6qUSta_NIUy22jjjpAf4b7p3ZBzqurM/edit?usp=sharing

pen=0


Balkans_BA:adapted_ANI163 Balkans_BA:I2165
5.639317 5.890353
Hungary_BA:I1504 Hungary_BA:I7043
6.671139 6.864227
Balkans_BA:I4332 Balkans_BA:I4331
7.405923 7.531860
Balkans_BA:I3313 Hungary_BA:I7041
8.371998 8.479207

[1] "distance%=2.4796"

Dorkymon

Balkans_BA 70.4
Yamnaya_Ukraine 15.4
Hungary_BA 9.6
Han 4.6


Still overfitted for Han at pen=0, so the following model is the winner for me:


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Balkans_BA:adapted_ANI163 Balkans_BA:I2165
5.639317 5.890353
Balkans_BA:I4332 Balkans_BA:I4331
7.405923 7.531860
Balkans_BA:I3313 Balkans_BA:I2520
8.371998 9.196043
Balkans_BA:I2163 Balkans_BA:I2176
10.163270 10.969873

[1] "distance%=3.4018"

Dorkymon

Balkans_BA 92
Yamnaya_Ukraine 4.8
Han 1.4
Pima 1.4
Onge 0.4

PS: Look at MyHeritage from my signature. Coincidence?

----------------------------------------------
Bonus: 23andme vs nMonte
Just for the sake of curiosity, I'll run an overfitted model with all the moderns from Global 25 PCA_scaled at pen=0. Then I will combine the individual results into regions, following 23andme's nomenclature. After that, I will take my Broadly European bit from 23andme and try to break it down into regions, by following the proportions from nMonte. Let's see what we get.

Input references
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IZ2NeaqZKWR60YVqLF-cUD-xIQXfkF-h/view?usp=sharing

pen=0


[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Moldovan:747_R01C02 Montenegrin:Montenegro7
2.723537 2.832282
Bosnian:Bosnian_14 Moldovan:747_R02C02
2.917600 2.958859
Hungarian:NA15207 Bosnian:Bosnian_13
2.965516 3.357705
Romanian:A362 Croatian:Croatia_Cro26
3.453939 3.454474

[1] "distance%=0.5865"

Dorkymon

Montenegrin,40.4
Russian_Kursk,15.8
Ukrainian,9.8
Macedonian,9.2
Belgian,7.4
Mordovian,5.8
Albanian,4.8
Greek,3.2
Han_NChina,2
Mongolian,1.4
Hungarian,0.2


Country to region
[1] "distance%=0.5865"

Dorkymon

Southeast European 57.8
Northeast European 31.4
Northwest European 7.4
Northeast Asian 3.4


Compared to:

23andme
South Euro 53.5% (41.8% Balkan)
East Euro 22.4%
Northwest Euro 7.3%
Ashkenazi 0.3%
Broadly Euro 14.7%
East Asian 1.8%


23andme (Broadly European broken down according to nMonte vs nMonte)


South Euro 63.0% 57.8%
East Euro 26.4% 31.4%
Northwest Euro 8.5% 7.4%
Ashkenazi 0.3% N/A
East Asian 1.8% 3.4%

Fungene
06-14-2018, 01:46 PM
I tried to produce some fits with Global 25 based on my admixture. The models might make sense for this region overall.

[/code]

This is great fun, and clearly you enjoy doing this too. Now, since I don't do modeling myself I'm not going to comment on what I don't know, so what you’ll see here are just a few comments from an interested amateur.

Looking through past posts in other threads, you had started out maybe a few weeks ago with LBK_EN as the EEF component.
You’re a veteran of Kurd’s calculators, so you know that you have more eastern EEF than western (correct me if I’m wrong.)

In this series, your first model uses Gomolava (Vinca) and Yabalbovo for the Balkans Neolithic and looks really not bad at all.

For the next model, which you call Bronze Age, you included Smyadovo, which is Copper Age, Beli Breyag, which is Bronze Age, and a Verteba Cave Trypillian, which is Copper Age again. To this you added a Malak Preslavets sample, which is described as being from Criș Culture, so Neolithic. Plus you have the Kierzkowo Globular Amphora (I think.) When you get Pima and Onge, as you do with this model, the developer of Global 25 himself suggests you add Siberian and perhaps South Asian reference populations.
That might be something to be pursued, because otherwise, this model gives you the eastern EEF you know you have.

Dorkymon
06-14-2018, 10:59 PM
This is great fun, and clearly you enjoy doing this too. Now, since I don't do modeling myself I'm not going to comment on what I don't know, so what you’ll see here are just a few comments from an interested amateur.

Looking through past posts in other threads, you had started out maybe a few weeks ago with LBK_EN as the EEF component.
You’re a veteran of Kurd’s calculators, so you know that you have more eastern EEF than western (correct me if I’m wrong.)

In this series, your first model uses Gomolava (Vinca) and Yabalbovo for the Balkans Neolithic and looks really not bad at all.

For the next model, which you call Bronze Age, you included Smyadovo, which is Copper Age, Beli Breyag, which is Bronze Age, and a Verteba Cave Trypillian, which is Copper Age again. To this you added a Malak Preslavets sample, which is described as being from Criș Culture, so Neolithic. Plus you have the Kierzkowo Globular Amphora (I think.) When you get Pima and Onge, as you do with this model, the developer of Global 25 himself suggests you add Siberian and perhaps South Asian reference populations.
That might be something to be pursued, because otherwise, this model gives you the eastern EEF you know you have.

Yes, the model can be improved. In terms of the EEF ratio, it's usually an almost even split, with EEF coming ahead in some instances, but not the other way around.

I liked the Balkans Neolithic run since it almost perfectly agreed with the LBK_EN one to which you have referred.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13393-Davidski-s-Global-25-nMonte-results&p=404366&viewfull=1#post404366

I should look into qpAdm moving forward for an even greater precision, but glancing through Davidski's outputs, my final result shouldn't deviate significantly.
Consider that I usually cluster visibly Northeast of the Romanian pool, falling somewhere between Bosniaks and Croats.
And in one of his qpAdm models, both Romanian and Croatian references are made available, so we can attempt an educated guess.

Barcin_Neolithic
Romanian average: 52.3%
Croatian average: 49.4%

My average LBK_EN: 46.8%
My average Balkans_N: 44.2%

So, I should expect something in the region of 51%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eBcBThgygLDJPiUL0w0_Zqf0yolPvhtcjKDM56ecjfc/edit?usp=sharing

Fungene
06-19-2018, 11:10 PM
Yes, the model can be improved. In terms of the EEF ratio, it's usually an almost even split, with EEF coming ahead in some instances, but not the other way around.

OK; I meant EEFs with less WHG (Cris, for instance) vs EEFs with more WHG (GAC, for example)


I should look into qpAdm moving forward for an even greater precision, but glancing through Davidski's outputs, my final result shouldn't deviate significantly.
Consider that I usually cluster visibly Northeast of the Romanian pool, falling somewhere between Bosniaks and Croats.
And in one of his qpAdm models, both Romanian and Croatian references are made available, so we can attempt an educated guess.

Barcin_Neolithic
Romanian average: 52.3%
Croatian average: 49.4%

My average LBK_EN: 46.8%
My average Balkans_N: 44.2%

So, I should expect something in the region of 51%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eBcBThgygLDJPiUL0w0_Zqf0yolPvhtcjKDM56ecjfc/edit?usp=sharing

Is this an updated datasheet?

Fungene
10-07-2018, 05:35 PM
What are calculator results without paper trails? We still need paper of some kind or other. Plus, looking into genealogy can be fun.
I am surprised to have read from some online contributors that there's no use looking because all documentation is gone. That's giving in too easily.

For people outside Romania (or even within) who are interested in finding out more about their genealogy, there is plenty of material, too much for one amateur to be aware of it all. So if you can pitch in, please do.

A good place to start:

National Archives of Romania
http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/en/first-page

Electronic services portal
http://portal.arhivelenationale.ro/webcenter/faces/oracle/webcenter/page/scopedMD/s28526898_e7d2_4fd6_8776_a48b47858a0b/Page4.jspx?_afrLoop=3568248886180573#!%40%40%3F_af rLoop%3D3568248886180573%26_adf.ctrl-state%3Drm8gqk6lh_4

Local archives (you might get lucky):
http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/en/local-archives/

You might also get lucky by perusing blogs and local newsletters published online. They can include stories about local people, sometimes going back several centuries. Look for blogs, newssheets, historical reports about local people and events relevant to your family’s location.

Some sources are not online. But you never know what you will find in the most unexpected places. For instance, in Constanţa Badea, Petronela Badea, and Mihai Pârâianu, 2017, Paraieni Valahieii, 2nd edition, p. 24, we find the following information: “Într-o copie a jurnalului încheiat de ‘subtprefectura Olteţu de Sus’ din 19 noiembrie 1860, găsită tot la Gheorghe I. Pârâianu, se citează numele a trei locuitori din satul Pârâienii de Sus: Barbu Sima, Barbu Căşulete şi George sin (fiul lui) Radu."
That would be good information to follow up on for anyone who has ancestry from the area. But this is just a small example.

For more names of individuals, one would need to research tax records and census reports. Rich material, but it takes either patience or you would need to hire specialists to dig up the documents and interpret them.

And, of course, there are lists of gentry and commentaries about them. Here are some of the old ones:
There is Ioan C. Filiti, Catagrafie oficială de toţi boerii Ţării Româneşti la 1829 (have not been able to find this online yet)
And also
Octav George Lecca. 1899. Familiile boerești române: istoric și genealogie dupe isvoare autentice
https://books.google.com/books?id=wl4YAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Plenty of Romanian families from the northwest in Ioan Puscariu’s 1892 Date istorice privitoare la famiile…—probably the most comprehensive list in print in any one source. Unintentionally, it’s also a list of magyarized Romanian names (about 180 pages-worth so too much to mention here) although probably not exhaustive.
PDF Online at
dspace.bcucluj.ro/bitstream/123456789/72886/1/BCUCLUJ_FG_237648_1892.pdf (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjanuW15vTdAhVN4VMKHS1IDkgQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdspace.bcucluj.ro%2Fbitstream%2F1 23456789%2F72886%2F1%2FBCUCLUJ_FG_237648_1892.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1FIYTjD9lMl2UQrqgDynIc)

Some information relevant to northeast Romania and Moldova:
Teodor Cotelnic. 2015. “Rusificarea Basarabiei sub Dominatia Tarista (1812-1918).” Sociolinguistica. http://www.diacronia.ro/ro/indexing/details/A19931/pdf
Under the policy of russification between 1817-1897, most of the colonists brought in were Russian, Ukrainian, and Cossack. The following information can be helpful for genealogy, for the provenance of the colonists: “Imediat după sfârşitul războiului cu Turcia (1806-1812) guvernul ţarist formează din cazacii ucraineni, izgoniţi de Ecaterina II de pe pământurile lor‚ coloniile semimilitare Acmonghit, Volontiri, Starocazacie, Nicolaevca, Constantinovca, Mihailovca, Petrovca cu o populaţie de 11488 de oameni. În 1826 au fost strămutaţi în Basarabia 20000 de ţărani din guberniile Cernigov, Poltava, Oriol, Kursk, Kaluga, Tambov şi Reazani” (p. 51).

Also, information of where in the former Soviet Union deportees were sent (might be some relatives): https://www.geopolintelligence.com/bessarabian-romanians-deportations-to-siberia/

Just a few sources and links. Hope to see plenty more.

(Please, no Wikipedia...)

Dorkymon
10-08-2018, 06:03 PM
What are calculator results without paper trails? We still need paper of some kind or other. Plus, looking into genealogy can be fun.
I am surprised to have read from some online contributors that there's no use looking because all documentation is gone. That's giving in too easily.

For people outside Romania (or even within) who are interested in finding out more about their genealogy, there is plenty of material, too much for one amateur to be aware of it all. So if you can pitch in, please do.

A good place to start:

National Archives of Romania
http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/en/first-page

Electronic services portal
http://portal.arhivelenationale.ro/webcenter/faces/oracle/webcenter/page/scopedMD/s28526898_e7d2_4fd6_8776_a48b47858a0b/Page4.jspx?_afrLoop=3568248886180573#!%40%40%3F_af rLoop%3D3568248886180573%26_adf.ctrl-state%3Drm8gqk6lh_4

Local archives (you might get lucky):
http://arhivelenationale.ro/site/en/local-archives/

You might also get lucky by perusing blogs and local newsletters published online. They can include stories about local people, sometimes going back several centuries. Look for blogs, newssheets, historical reports about local people and events relevant to your family’s location.

Some sources are not online. But you never know what you will find in the most unexpected places. For instance, in Constanţa Badea, Petronela Badea, and Mihai Pârâianu, 2017, Paraieni Valahieii, 2nd edition, p. 24, we find the following information: “Într-o copie a jurnalului încheiat de ‘subtprefectura Olteţu de Sus’ din 19 noiembrie 1860, găsită tot la Gheorghe I. Pârâianu, se citează numele a trei locuitori din satul Pârâienii de Sus: Barbu Sima, Barbu Căşulete şi George sin (fiul lui) Radu."
That would be good information to follow up on for anyone who has ancestry from the area. But this is just a small example.

For more names of individuals, one would need to research tax records and census reports. Rich material, but it takes either patience or you would need to hire specialists to dig up the documents and interpret them.

And, of course, there are lists of gentry and commentaries about them. Here are some of the old ones:
There is Ioan C. Filiti, Catagrafie oficială de toţi boerii Ţării Româneşti la 1829 (have not been able to find this online yet)
And also
Octav George Lecca. 1899. Familiile boerești române: istoric și genealogie dupe isvoare autentice
https://books.google.com/books?id=wl4YAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Plenty of Romanian families from the northwest in Ioan Puscariu’s 1892 Date istorice privitoare la famiile…—probably the most comprehensive list in print in any one source. Unintentionally, it’s also a list of magyarized Romanian names (about 180 pages-worth so too much to mention here) although probably not exhaustive.
PDF Online at
dspace.bcucluj.ro/bitstream/123456789/72886/1/BCUCLUJ_FG_237648_1892.pdf (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjanuW15vTdAhVN4VMKHS1IDkgQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdspace.bcucluj.ro%2Fbitstream%2F1 23456789%2F72886%2F1%2FBCUCLUJ_FG_237648_1892.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1FIYTjD9lMl2UQrqgDynIc)

Some information relevant to northeast Romania and Moldova:
Teodor Cotelnic. 2015. “Rusificarea Basarabiei sub Dominatia Tarista (1812-1918).” Sociolinguistica. http://www.diacronia.ro/ro/indexing/details/A19931/pdf
Under the policy of russification between 1817-1897, most of the colonists brought in were Russian, Ukrainian, and Cossack. The following information can be helpful for genealogy, for the provenance of the colonists: “Imediat după sfârşitul războiului cu Turcia (1806-1812) guvernul ţarist formează din cazacii ucraineni, izgoniţi de Ecaterina II de pe pământurile lor‚ coloniile semimilitare Acmonghit, Volontiri, Starocazacie, Nicolaevca, Constantinovca, Mihailovca, Petrovca cu o populaţie de 11488 de oameni. În 1826 au fost strămutaţi în Basarabia 20000 de ţărani din guberniile Cernigov, Poltava, Oriol, Kursk, Kaluga, Tambov şi Reazani” (p. 51).

Also, information of where in the former Soviet Union deportees were sent (might be some relatives): https://www.geopolintelligence.com/bessarabian-romanians-deportations-to-siberia/

Just a few sources and links. Hope to see plenty more.

(Please, no Wikipedia...)

It can get tricky quite easily.

For example take my 25% side from Bukovina in Ukraine. They have romanised surnames of Ukrainian origin (Guțul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls?wprov=sfla1) with an accent on the second "u" and Lavric) and have Romanian as their mother tongue.

However, given the names, it makes me wonder whether they were originally partly Ukrainians/Ruthenians who were romanised.

I'll have to dive further down my genealogy tree to answer this question.

Fungene
10-09-2018, 11:26 AM
It can get tricky quite easily.

For example take my 25% side from Bukovina in Ukraine. They have romanised surnames of Ukrainian origin (Guțul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls?wprov=sfla1) with an accent on the second "u" and Lavric) and have Romanian as their mother tongue.

However, given the names, it makes me wonder whether they were originally partly Ukrainians/Ruthenians who were romanised.

I'll have to dive further down my genealogy tree to answer this question.

Sounds interesting. Let us know what you find. Also, if you run across resources other people can use, that would be good to know too.

Dorkymon
10-09-2018, 09:35 PM
Sounds interesting. Let us know what you find. Also, if you run across resources other people can use, that would be good to know too.

I found the following at National Institute of Philology in Chisinau:

Guţu, hipocoristic dedus din mai multe prenume: Gheorguţu (Gheorguţă), Grigoruţu (Grigoruţă), Negruţu (Negruţă). Pe terenul limbii noastre a servit ca bază de formare a numelor de familie: Guţan(u), Guţescu, Guţuleanu, Guţuleac, Guţulescu. Pentru Guţu(l) dispunem de atestări documentare vechi: Guţul, fratele lui Guga (1573), Guţul, vătăman (1586), Guţul din Vârtop (1608), Sandu Guţul din Rădeni, ţin. Orhei (1759).

Lavric, derivat cu suf. -ic de la Lavru, cognomen latin Laurus < laurus „laur”, existent şi în antroponimia slavă (bg. Lavur, rus. Lavr, pol. Lawra). Forme şi derivate din aceeaşi familie onimică: Laur, Laurian, Laurescu, Laurenţiu. În documentele vechi este menţionat frecvent cu forma Laur: (sat) unde trăieşte Laur (1443), Laur, tatăl lui Cozma (1592), Laur, tatăl lui Ion (1600), Laur (1623).

My actual surname is undoubtedly of Romanian origin and that's been confirmed again in these sources.

If you guys need them for research, then here they are:

https://ibn.idsi.md/sites/default/files/imag_file/Arealul%20onomastic%20Singerei_Numele%20de%20famil ie_originea%20structura%20derivationala%20semnific atia.pdf

https://ibn.idsi.md/sites/default/files/imag_file/Arealul%20onomastic%20Singerei_Numele%20de%20famil ia%20originea%20structura%20derivationala%20semnif icatia%20II.pdf

https://ibn.idsi.md/sites/default/files/imag_file/Arealul%20onomastic%20Singerei.pdf

Fungene
10-10-2018, 01:58 AM
Most of the people dropping in on this thread are probably guests. The idea is to have information that could be useful to them.

Fungene
10-13-2018, 02:05 AM
"Afaceri Orientale" is an organization that addresses the history of Moldova in the past 100 years or so.
https://www.facebook.com/afaceriorientale/
It has recently posted pictures of documents, including the distribution of populations in various locations and burial sites of Romanians to their page on Facebook. Could be of interest for people with ancestry from the northeast.
They also have a blog: http://afaceriorientale.blogspot.com

Dumidre
10-13-2018, 04:14 PM
https://books.google.com/books/about/Roumania.html?id=UL9DAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

Interesting read!

Fungene
10-14-2018, 04:28 PM
Thanks. Have you run across anything that can help in genealogical detective work?

Dumidre
10-15-2018, 04:40 PM
I didn’t have much time lately... busy with work... sorry.

Fungene
10-20-2018, 08:06 PM
Fun with Global25 nMonte Runner, Version 1.2
http://185.144.156.77:3000

Modeling Romanians with ancient populations
Highly addictive.

With what’s available, it’s not easy to get realistic results, both archaeologically and chronologically (aside from some Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers, there are no ancient samples from Romania in Global 25.) Best result is for the Chalcolithic:

https://i.imgur.com/2b8BWVF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DZAAEUD.jpg

Realistic archaeologically and chronologically: Boleraz (Protoboleraz, Boleraz, Baden) culture ranged over western Romania; it antedates Yamnaya Samara, but not by much.

Decent fit. Well under 3 with only two reference populations.

The Protoboleraz samples range from ca 3900 to 3600 BCE; they provide a better fit than the Baden LCA samples, ca 3600-2850 BCE.
https://i.imgur.com/Rt03mdI.jpg

The Yamnaya Samara samples are dated ca 3300-2600 calBCE

(Dates for samples are from supplementary information to various papers, for instance, Supplementary Data 2, Wang et al. 2018. The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/16/322347.figures-only)

And of course, the Protoboleraz were Anatolian farmers admixed with local hunter-gatherers; Yamnaya pastoralists were admixed with Early European Farmers.

Note: decided to put the information in this thread, rather than the ancient DNA thread, since it is about modeling modern Romanians

Fungene
11-03-2018, 04:06 AM
Comments on Global 25 nmonte Runner with ancient samples from Romania continued in the "Ancient DNA from Romania" thread.
edit: some of my posts to this thread disappeared during server downtime.

Fungene
11-05-2018, 05:55 PM
Just for the record here are screen shots of the posts that got eaten up in the server make-over:

https://i.imgur.com/BFtE902.jpg

Fungene
11-05-2018, 05:57 PM
continued:

https://i.imgur.com/sbo7T9O.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UWVakwv.jpg

More models, this time adding HGs to the mixture are in the ancient DNA from Romania thread. That thread also contains an interpretation of the models.

Fungene
11-06-2018, 03:15 AM
On what I see in test results.

My results are all over Anthrogenica, so I won’t repeat them here. Rather, what I include in this post are some remarks about possible patterns.

I am totally out of Gedmatch, so my comments will be about LivingDNA and 23andMe, which I have found to be the most useful commercial DNA tests.

What is useful in 23andMe is its DNA Relatives feature. From what I can see in DNA Relatives (mine, not information posted online by others) is that Romanians reliably get the combination Balkan/Italian/Broadly South European, with Balkan predominating. So do Bulgarians. In addition, Bulgarians can get some West Asian. Greeks get the same combination, but the Italian seems to be a bit higher than for Romanians and Bulgarians and they tend to get more West Asian. Serbs and Croats don't seem to get Italian (but I have to admit that I haven't seen many instances of Serbs and Croats in DNA Relatives.)
Perhaps other people are seeing different patterns among their DNA Relatives in 23andMe.

For Romanian results in LivingDNA complete mode, the combination of East Balkans, Italian, Iberian (Iberian!), and Aegean looks typical. I tend to view this set as the equivalent of 23andMe’s Balkan/Italian/Broadly South European combo. I am not sure about West Balkans in LivingDNA complete mode. We would have to hear from more people who have tested with LivingDNA.

Opinions are mixed, but some people see the cautious mode in LivingDNA as better than the complete. I have been puzzled by what I get in LivingDNA cautious mode. A great big patch of green for Aegean. My next post will be about that.

Fungene
11-06-2018, 02:07 PM
The puzzle of the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode.

This post is really about what one can do with commercial test results in combination with information from other sources. For all their limitations, LivingDNA and 23andMe can help in making useful inferences.

This is what the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode looks like and how it is described:

https://i.imgur.com/toXzE2x.jpg

The puzzle of the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode is why would it include Pannonia? Remember, this is what I see. Other people will be getting different groupings in cautious mode.

Pannonia in Aegean might reflect more ancient population structure. That would bring us to the Chalcolithic. We also have, incidentally, a medieval Hungarian autosome. We have it, because people were looking for something else, Iron Age Scythians, and this sample was mistaken for one of them. It is DA199, found less than 130 km west of Oradea, and it shows up in Extended Data Fig. 1d., Damgaard et al. 2018. 137 ancient human genomes…
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0094-2
In Fig. 1d. the six Hungarian “Scythians” (5 Scythians from the Iron Age and one individual from the 13th century CE) are not labeled individually, but they all show a high proportion of Anatolian/European farmer component (light blue). DA199 is one of those six, so the same can be said for her.

Now, probably all modern Poles and Ukrainians also have European farmer ancestry, but neither Poland nor Ukraine is included in LivingDNA’s Aegean confidence group, so what one medieval Pannonian looks like can’t be grounds enough for lumping Pannonia in with Aegean, although it is relevant. It it is more prudent to give greater weight to more recent events, and it is more likely that more recent events have a greater impact on what commercial calculators report.

Switching temporarily back to 23andMe, which I like to compare to LivingDNA, I can see the following: 23andMe DNA relatives who report all 4 grandparents born in Hungary get on average 18% Balkan. Characteristically, from what I see in 23andMe, Romanians seem to get the following combination of populations: Balkan/Italian/Southeastern Europe. For people who are my DNA relatives and report all 4 grandparents born in Hungary, this combo makes up on average 27% of their ancestry.

These patterns are most plausibly interpreted to reflect the impact of the policy of magyarization. It is, most likely, the reason for which LivingDNA’s broadest Aegean grouping, for me, includes Pannonia.

Here’s what we can do to explore this issue further: Ioan Pușcariu’s 1862 census is a partial listing of Romanian families with magyarized names. The first part of his publication is here: BCUCLUJ_FG_237648_1892.pdf
This reference was given in a previous post in this thread.

Not all parts of western Romania could respond, so Pușcariu’s census does not include Oradea, Banat, and Bucovina (p. VI).
I looked at 4 random pages between pp. 1-113 (If I had more time, I would do more). Each page listed on average about 183 families (not names). So one can estimate that Pușcariu’s census included over 20,860 families. A very conservative estimate of 5 people per family (and families were on average larger at the time) yields over 100,000 individuals in his incomplete census.
So one can count a minimum of 100,000 magyarized Romanian individuals in 1862, and this is probably a substantial underestimate, for the reasons mentioned above (larger families than assumed in my estimate, some regions not reporting) and some not mentioned (probably, incomplete responses). Also, Pușcariu focuses only on families that had evidence of “noble” status.

This is a reasonable explanation— or a good part of the explanation— for Pannonia appearing as part of a southeastern European cluster labeled “Aegean” in LivingDNA’s cautious mode.

The upshot is that commercial resources like LivingDNA and 23andMe, such as they are, can be a helpful adjunct to historical research. For all their limitations, they are picking up things that can be used as supplementary information.

Fungene
11-06-2018, 02:19 PM
More stuff for paper trails

Not sure how good this is. It is entitled “Historical Population Database of Transylvania”
http://hpdt.ro:4080
Perhaps worth a try.

More links with references to collections of family names (unfortunately not online; maybe someone has access to them and can post something about them?)

Alexandru Filipaşcu. 2015. Enciclopedia familiilor nobile maramureşene din origine română, cu traducere în limba engleză de Ligia Tomoioagă

Ioan Cavaler de Puşcariu, Date istorice privitoare la familiile nobile române, din 1892 şi 1895, şi Ioan Mihali de Apşa, Diplome maramureşene din secolele XIV şi XV, din 1900. Ele au fost reeditate de către Vasile Iuga de Sălişte în anul 2002. [this is the whole publication, not just the first part]
Editura Dragos Voda https://dragosvodadotorg.wordpress.com/oferta-de-pret/

Earlier works reedited by Vasile Iuga:
http://www.bjbc.ro:8081/opac/authority/29294;jsessionid=EB9FBCC977B09D9C907A098BB3F9BB0E
includes:
Fragmente istorice. Despre boierii din Ţara Făgăraşului
Cercetarea calităţii de nobil în Comitatul Maramureş în anii 1749-1769

Mykhailo
11-06-2018, 02:25 PM
LivingDNA is still giving free results or no

Fungene
11-06-2018, 03:26 PM
I think @Euasta recently tested with them and got a 10% discount. He was not aware of any free offer. He would know more about this.

Dorkymon
11-06-2018, 07:49 PM
The puzzle of the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode.

This post is really about what one can do with commercial test results in combination with information from other sources. For all their limitations, LivingDNA and 23andMe can help in making useful inferences.

This is what the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode looks like and how it is described:

https://i.imgur.com/toXzE2x.jpg



Wait, are the spreads for the components personalised or are we on different versions of the map perhaps? (though I didn't receive any updates as far as I can see)
Just asking since on cautious, my 2.8% Aegean looks slightly differently (less Italy and it includes the West Balkans).

https://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1541533277.png




For Romanian results in LivingDNA complete mode, the combination of East Balkans, Italian, Iberian (Iberian!), and Aegean looks typical.


Or the algorithm could assign you a larger dose of Aegean-related and Near East ancestry, 22% + 5.9% in my case, and get that balanced out with Northeast European ancestry, thus bypassing the Balkan categories altogether. It isn't very clear what to make out of the Northwest European cluster of 19%, so I view it as something Central European instead.

Note that in the complete mode, the Aegean cluster looks like this:

https://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1541533944.png

Fungene
11-06-2018, 08:24 PM
Yes, LivingDNA does personalize their maps. I think it is rather a nice feature of their service. In complete mode, my Aegean is the same as yours; except is has a pretty teal color (I like it). I have more Transylvanian ancestry than Muntenian. Nothing Moldavian.

euasta
11-20-2018, 02:58 PM
The puzzle of the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode.

This post is really about what one can do with commercial test results in combination with information from other sources. For all their limitations, LivingDNA and 23andMe can help in making useful inferences.

This is what the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode looks like and how it is described:

https://i.imgur.com/toXzE2x.jpg In modul precaut, am exact aceleasi regiuni ca tine. Cele 5% "Aegean" se fac aici 70%.:) Imi pare putin ciudat ca nu au bagat si partea de vest din Balcani. Cred ca aici sunt grupate si geografic zonele cu mare afinitate genetica intre ele dar si cu noi. Nu ma mira ca au unit regiunile in care se gasesc Bulgaria, Serbia, Ungaria, si chiar sudul Italiei.
Dar vad ca zona este putin modificata la Dorkymon. Am vazut ca nu are in modul "complet" Balcani, Panonia si Spania dar are totusi sudul Italiei si Grecia.

Fungene
11-20-2018, 04:04 PM
Yes, it is an interesting aspect of LivingDNA's cautious mode maps that they appear to be tailored to the individual. This was first brought to my attention when a former Anthrogenica poster pointed out that, in cautious mode, his Eastern Balkans was placed within a larger Baltic-northeast Europe-related confidence group. It's somewhere in a LivingDNA thread. I think you were part of the conversation.

It would be nice to have more people who got East and West Balkans in complete mode tell us what their cautious mode looks like. LivingDNA's complete mode shows that they incorporate parts of Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece in East Balkans.

Some time ago, LivingDNA posted the following map on their website, indicating their future plan for a revised regional breakdown. It is very ambitious. I don't know how far along they are in this project.

https://i.imgur.com/j6Zfkvj.jpg

euasta
11-20-2018, 07:45 PM
Eu sunt sceptic. Este o dezamagire. LDNA... incepe sa dezamageasca tot mai mult Constat ca duce o politica de aburire a clientilor.

Dorkymon
11-20-2018, 07:58 PM
Eu sunt sceptic. Este o dezamagire. LDNA... incepe sa dezamageasca tot mai mult Constat ca duce o politica de aburire a clientilor.

Mai degraba sa scoti raw data si sa te joci cu calculatoarele amatoare din sectiunile "Autosomal" si "Ancient DNA". Cu dansii vom astepta mult. Ei aproape de un an deja se apuca sa lanseze serviciul lor de rudenie. Si asta-mi pare mai simplu decat ce isi propun sa obtina prin proiectul lor de regiuni.

Dorkymon
01-05-2019, 02:20 PM
I'm pleased to reveal that I most likely uncovered the mysteries of my East Asian ancestry. At least, this is by far shaping up to be the most plausible scenario, which requires the least amount of mental gymnastics.

So, by digging into the paper trail and asking my relatives, I found both in the documents and directly from my grandma that even though she was born in Iasi, her family migrated from Orheiul Vechi (now in Moldova), in the first days of the Soviet takeover.
Apparently, this was pretty common at that time.

Now, this wouldn't give me a lot of clues without further research, as Moldovan Romanians generally plot among Northeast Romanians anyway.
But the key here is her specific place of ancestry, Orheiul Vechi. And luckily enough, I found some extensive archaeological and anthropological studies on it.

-----------------------------------------------------

So, as a reminder, these are my results from commercial calculators:

23andme
https://puu.sh/CqATA/25009138b5.png

MyHeritage
https://puu.sh/CqBzw/389fd682c3.png

FTDNA
https://puu.sh/CqBF6/199f91a340.png


Now prior to learning about this, I was mostly leaning towards either the idea of an ancient preserved ancestry (not that far off now really) or the existence of a recent Tatar ancestor (Ukraine is just around the corner and there are Tatars even in Romania, around Constanta).

However, the idea of a recent Tatar ancestor began to look more and more unlikely, as I was learning that they score more than East Asian:

Crimean Tatar
https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5508&d=1438767271

https://i.imgur.com/Ta5zYRc.png

So, the patterns are not there, because given the different types of modern Tatar ancestry, I should be getting more West Asian and Caucasus input that puts me at the higher end for Romanians. This is clearly the signal that should be coupled with East Asian to recognise a recent Tatar input.
I get the opposite, less WA, Caucasus and more East Euro.

That's why this was leading me to postulate about a more ancient input, with much less West Eurasian contribution, that somehow managed to preserve.

By a stroke of luck, I stumbled upon an informational leaflet, which was advertising about Orheiul Vechi.
There, it was stated that the village became a town, when it was conquered by the Tataro-Mongols and became the seat of the local division of the Golden Horde in the 13th century.
Now, that's a long time ago and I would expect any genetic contribution from that far away to have washed off.
Unless, if maybe those Tatars who remained or left mixed descendants back there, mixed extensively with the natives of that place to the point that a higher amount of East Asian became kind of normal there.

And I found this study, which suggests that this is exactly what happened.

If you don't want to read through the text and want a quick summary then a TL;DR is that a recent Tatar ancestor is most likely excluded for me.
People from there were an Eurasian mix since the 13th century (roughly 75% Euro, 25% East Asian) and even after the Mongol retreat in the 14th century, this held well into the 16th.
Those anthropological studies from the screenshots below confirm that for the remains from the 13th and 16th centuries. This admixing was also facilitated by the tendency for Mongols to convert to Christianity even in the 13th century, when they were still reigning over the village (town at the time), built a church next to their mosque and started to bury their dead according to Christian rite.

https://puu.sh/Crwcg/fc6c362c31.png
https://puu.sh/CrwcW/ed6708da5d.png
https://puu.sh/CrwdZ/016224166e.png
https://puu.sh/Crwgt/947d8c265c.png
https://puu.sh/CrwhB/3827e8f788.png
https://puu.sh/Crwik/7ded161ac1.png
https://puu.sh/Crwjg/3a4f748a32.png
https://puu.sh/Crwm5/fec49e86cc.png
https://puu.sh/Crwmr/a6ecd46014.png

Source: https://www.academia.edu/36185635/Gheorghe_Postica_Valerii_Kavruk_Orheiul_Vechi_Arch aeological_Landscape_Chi%C8%99in%C4%83u_2018_150_p

So, that seems to be the story of this mysterious side of my ancestry.

A great run with the 12th century Tatar Kipchaks, Karakhanids (Central Asia) and the modern Naxi who where on the steppe of Northwestern China at that time.

https://i.ibb.co/bB86zCn/image.png
https://i.ibb.co/0Jw8mpP/image.png

Dorkymon
01-16-2019, 10:27 AM
My updated v4

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QNW1EHTZ5Eq4jYqLrY-4mECsvg4fDvyyY3D87IZ2gSC18ZPtmxpaj_uYmm0muMFA46qi9 h0xDD7T8XvNK4YiG9fdtA=s853

Dorkymon
01-27-2019, 09:55 PM
A great run with the 12th century Tatar Kipchaks, Karakhanids (Central Asia) and the modern Naxi who where on the steppe of Northwestern China at that time.

https://i.ibb.co/bB86zCn/image.png
https://i.ibb.co/0Jw8mpP/image.png

An even tighter and perhaps more realistic run, considering that the Irish disappeared.

https://i.imgur.com/s8xpCCD.png

Dorkymon
02-07-2019, 12:41 AM
On J2 in Romania

J2 occurs in around 13-14% of Romania's population (https://i.imgur.com/9wWkHtn.png).

It seems that most Romanian J2 falls primarily into J2a as is more characteristic for Bulgaria, Greece and Ukraine rather than J2b as is more typical in Albania, Serbia and Croatia.
I reached a similar conclusion by looking at academic papers, but it's nice seeing this confirmed on FTDNA's public haplotree too.

1) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1344622310000891?via%3Dihub
80% - J-PF4610 (J2a1)

6% - J-PF4610 (J2a1)

40% - J-M67 (J2a1a1a2b2)

6% - J-Z6065 (J2a1a1a2a)

20% - J-L25 (J2a1a1b2a1)

6% - J-PF5169 (J2a1a1b1a1a)
20% - J-M241 (J2b2a)

2) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282042290_Origins_admixture_and_founder_lineages_i n_European_Roma
63% - J-M410 (J2a)

42% - J-M410 (J2a)

16% - J-M67 (J2a1a1a2b2)

5% - J-M92 (J2a1a1a2b2a1a)
37% - J-M241 (J2b2a)

3) FTDNA Public Haplotree (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/J)
J-M172
54% - J-M172*
34% - J-M410 (J2a)

1% - J-M410* (J2a)

1% - J-L26 (J2a1a)

1% - J-L25 (J2a1a1b2a1)

4% - J-PF5366 (J2a1a1b2a1c2)

3% - J-Z435 (J2a1a1b2a1b1b)

4% - J-Z2227 (J2a1a1a2)

19% - J-M67 (J2a1a1a2b2)
12% - J-M102 (J2b)

1% - J-M102* (J2b)

1% - J-BY22607 (J2b2b2a)

7% - J-M241 (J2b2a)

1% - J-Z597 (J2b2a1a1a)

1% - J-Z1297 (J2b2a1a1a1a1a)


So more or less, the ratio between J2a/J2b is roughly 3/1, but can rise to 4/1 in Southeastern Romania (where the Greek settlements were).
Following the clades of J2a downstream, from 60-100% falls into J-M67, which could eventually lead to M92 for most. J-M67 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M67/)and J-M67>J-M92 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M92/) both seem to have strong vibes from the Caucasus IMO.
The rest of J2a from 0-40% falls into J-L25, which could lead in equal proportions to J-PF4888>J-PF5366 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PF5366/) and J-Z438>J-Z435. (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z435/) Both seem to have been diffused by perhaps the Indo-Europeans?

Randynsky
11-21-2019, 09:15 AM
I'll just chip in with my results:

Ancestry (known): Full Moldavian, 1/2 from rural Vaslui somewhere in the South, 1/4 from a village in western Iasi, 1/4 from Suceava near Gura Humorului.

Using Morley's Y-DNA Predictor I am most probably E-V13.

Direct maternal great-grandma had an Ukrainian last name before marriage. Also looked plainly Ukrainian, only spoke Romanian and did not really say anything about Ukrainian or Hutsul origins.


East Europe
74.6%
Balkan
68.4%
Baltic
6.2%

South Europe
19.3%
Iberian
16.5%
Italian
2.8%

North and West Europe
3.0%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh
3.0%

Middle Eastern
2.3%

Central Asian
0.8%

My first impressions were that it's strange for a Romanian to score that much Iberian and even Irish/Scottish, especially since if you check MyHeritage, the % of Romanians scoring these categories is low.

My K13:


North_Atlantic 28.06 Pct
Baltic 24.76 Pct
West_Med 17.53 Pct
West_Asian 6.52 Pct
East_Med 18.76 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.10 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.37 Pct
Amerindian 1.36 Pct
Oceanian 0.22 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 1.32 Pct

The oracles don't do anything good, putting me as something like 52% Tuscan and 48% Ukrainian.

G25, on the other hand:

Dorkymon's 23 and me:

"sample": "Custom:Insert_scaled",
"fit": 1.25,
"Greek & Balkan_": 59.17,
"French&German_": 28.33,
"Eastern European_": 7.5,
"Broadly Southern European_": 3.33,
"African_": 0.83,
"Siberian_": 0.83,
"Ashkenazi Jewish_": 0,

Using an oracle for G25:


[1,] "26.6% Austrian:Austria6 + 73.4% Romanian:G408" "0.0096"
[2,] "21.9% Dutch:Netherlands56 + 78.1% Romanian:G408" "0.0098"
[3,] "61.8% Bulgarian:Bulgaria1 + 38.2% German_East:German_East1" "0.0099"
[4,] "17.6% Irish:Irish31 + 82.4% Romanian:G408" "0.01"
[5,] "22.1% German:German65 + 77.9% Romanian:G408" "0.0101"
[6,] "23.4% German:German67 + 76.6% Romanian:G408" "0.0102"
[7,] "20.4% English:England14 + 79.6% Romanian:G408" "0.0102"
[8,] "40.8% Austrian:Austria10 + 59.2% Moldovan:747_R02C01" "0.0103"
[9,] "17% Germany_Medieval:STR_486 + 83% Romanian:G408" "0.0104"
[10,] "18.1% Dutch:Netherlands16 + 81.9% Romanian:G408" "0.0104"

Based on other feedback I am presenting a greatgrandfather/mother that was fully German, so around 1/8 . I have no idea where it could be from and I haven't yet managed to get more info on my maternal grandfather's family. I am also pulled towards German on PCA's, though the German is too far away to make me appear as a German-Romanian intermediary individual but just a more Western Romanian. The Asian is Central Asian more than Eastern.

Any thoughts are welcome, otherwise just have this confused Moldavian's results.

Dorkymon
11-21-2019, 04:02 PM
I'll just chip in with my results:

Ancestry (known): Full Moldavian, 1/2 from rural Vaslui somewhere in the South, 1/4 from a village in western Iasi, 1/4 from Suceava near Gura Humorului.

Using Morley's Y-DNA Predictor I am most probably E-V13.

Direct maternal great-grandma had an Ukrainian last name before marriage. Also looked plainly Ukrainian, only spoke Romanian and did not really say anything about Ukrainian or Hutsul origins.


East Europe
74.6%
Balkan
68.4%
Baltic
6.2%

South Europe
19.3%
Iberian
16.5%
Italian
2.8%

North and West Europe
3.0%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh
3.0%

Middle Eastern
2.3%

Central Asian
0.8%

My first impressions were that it's strange for a Romanian to score that much Iberian and even Irish/Scottish, especially since if you check MyHeritage, the % of Romanians scoring these categories is low.



Nu-i nimic straniu in asta. MyHeritage trebuie inca sa-si stabilizeze componentele si algoritmul de selectie. Am inteles ca vor lansa un update comprehensiv in curand. Pana cand avem ce avem, iar mie tot mi-au atribut niste procente nord-vest europene, care n-au ce cauta acolo.

https://puu.sh/CqBzw/389fd682c3.png


Referitor la profilul tau autosomal comparativ cu ceilalti români, personal nu vad nimic strain.
Ia inca in considerare ca referintele din G25 provin exclusiv din judetele Gorj si Alba, deci destul de departe fata de Moldova. Pentru Moldova ai putea sa te conduci dupa mine - bunei din Iasi, Galati, Orhei si Cernauti. Moldovenii din Republica Moldova provin din raionul Stefan Voda, ceea ce tot nu e aproape.


https://i.imgur.com/QvGJ60s.png

Dorkymon
01-06-2020, 02:51 PM
I've just received the MyHeritage results for my mom, together with the Global 25 coordinates.
A lot of testing will surely be done over the coming weeks, but here are some quick snapshots for now.

Her ancestry is 1/2 Romanian Southeast (Galati county in Moldavia region) and 1/2 Romanian Ukraine (Cernauti oblast in Bukovina region).

https://i.imgur.com/XVtaH1Y.png

I haven't tested with MyHeritage, but two 23andme uploads rendered the below estimates:

https://i.imgur.com/8WlFiP8.png

MyHeritage is kind of sloppy for a lot of people, so while it generally looks ok, they obviously have to fine tune their algorithm.


----------------------


Let's get to the interesting part, G25.

Here are the closest single distance modern samples to my mom:

https://i.imgur.com/nwTMVaw.png

Me:

https://i.imgur.com/q4ypwMp.png

Closest single distance ancient samples to my mom:

https://i.imgur.com/eSEXOPu.png

Me:

https://i.imgur.com/fSbKHGg.png


Plot with regional modern samples

https://i.imgur.com/K50xItS.png

Plot with ancient samples

https://i.imgur.com/gL0RvDt.png


G25 run with basic components

https://i.imgur.com/xoMdmKE.png

or


[
{
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_Dorkymon",
"fit": 2.9257,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 45,
"Yamnaya_UKR": 40,
"Baltic_LVA_HG": 11.67,
"Han": 3.33,
"GEO_CHG": 0,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 0,
"Levant_Natufian": 0,
"Nganassan": 0,
"Simulated_AASI": 0,
"WHG": 0,
"Yoruba": 0,
},
{
"sample": "Custom:Dorkymon_mom",
"fit": 4.0853,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 43.33,
"Yamnaya_UKR": 40.83,
"Baltic_LVA_HG": 14.17,
"Han": 1.67,
"GEO_CHG": 0,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 0,
"Levant_Natufian": 0,
"Nganassan": 0,
"Simulated_AASI": 0,
"WHG": 0,
"Yoruba": 0,
}
]


I'm waiting for my dad's results from MyHeritage too, but if I were to guess with G25, then I should expect something along the lines of:

https://i.imgur.com/Rh6emYH.png

Dorkymon
01-09-2020, 11:15 PM
I've just received the MyHeritage results for my mom, together with the Global 25 coordinates.


I've got my dad's results today. His ancestry is from Iasi county.

https://i.imgur.com/mIMPou3.png


Here are the closest single distance modern samples to him:

https://i.imgur.com/wbykxXz.png

Ancients

https://i.imgur.com/VcMK1bs.png


All of us plotted with modern samples

https://i.imgur.com/wbZBfgY.png

And ancients

https://i.imgur.com/MKm0dSA.png


G25 run with basic components:

Poi's web runner

https://i.imgur.com/t9A5U8c.png

Vahaduo

https://i.imgur.com/bKnVN9q.png


Overall, his results are a bit different from what I expected, as I assumed that I'm supposed to be a perfect 50/50 mix between my mom and dad. However, as I have learned today, because of DNA recombination, children might inherit segments that have skipped a generation (https://dna-explained.com/2017/04/21/concepts-percentage-of-ancestors-dna/). This appears to be the case with my elevated East Asian admixture, when compared to my parents. Perhaps it comes from one of my grandparents or from an older generation.

oz
01-10-2020, 01:35 AM
Did you tell your dad he's closest to Bosnians on G25? And what was his reaction?

passenger
01-10-2020, 01:55 AM
I've got my dad's results today. His ancestry is from Iasi county.

https://i.imgur.com/mIMPou3.png


Here are the closest single distance modern samples to him:

https://i.imgur.com/wbykxXz.png

Ancients

https://i.imgur.com/VcMK1bs.png


All of us plotted with modern samples

https://i.imgur.com/wbZBfgY.png

And ancients

https://i.imgur.com/MKm0dSA.png


G25 run with basic components:

Poi's web runner

https://i.imgur.com/t9A5U8c.png

Vahaduo

https://i.imgur.com/bKnVN9q.png


Overall, his results are a bit different from what I expected, as I assumed that I'm supposed to be a perfect 50/50 mix between my mom and dad. However, as I have learned today, because of DNA recombination, children might inherit segments that have skipped a generation (https://dna-explained.com/2017/04/21/concepts-percentage-of-ancestors-dna/). This appears to be the case with my elevated East Asian admixture, when compared to my parents. Perhaps it comes from one of my grandparents or from an older generation.

My understanding is that it's pretty much 50/50, except in the case of men it would be more like 51% from the mother and 49% from the father, due to the Y chromosome being smaller than the X chromosome. I'm not aware of any "skipping" between generations in terms of the autosomal characteristics used to attribute ethnicity, so it doesn't seem likely that you would "inherit" an ethnicity that wasn't at all expressed in either parent, though of course we all know that there are substantial differences between siblings due to the fact that we do not necessarily inherit 25% from each grandparent. I'm no expert in this, though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dorkymon
01-10-2020, 04:26 AM
My understanding is that it's pretty much 50/50, except in the case of men it would be more like 51% from the mother and 49% from the father, due to the Y chromosome being smaller than the X chromosome. I'm not aware of any "skipping" between generations in terms of the autosomal characteristics used to attribute ethnicity, so it doesn't seem likely that you would "inherit" an ethnicity that wasn't at all expressed in either parent, though of course we all know that there are substantial differences between siblings due to the fact that we do not necessarily inherit 25% from each grandparent. I'm no expert in this, though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm also not an expert on recombination, so I don't have to correct you. But they are my parents (confirmed as matches on MyHeritage), so there is at least one case of skipping in the world. Perhaps I'll request the Global 25 coordinates for my LivingDNA data and I'll compare them with those that I have above, which are produced from 23andme v4. At least on GEDmatch, I know that I score at least 50% less East Asian-like admix with LivingDNA raw data. If the LivingDNA coordinates will make more sense than 23andme's v4a when compared to my parents' then I'm going to work with those. Thanks for giving me this idea, albeit indirectly.

Dorkymon
01-10-2020, 04:36 AM
Did you tell your dad he's closest to Bosnians on G25? And what was his reaction?

No, we talked mostly about reactions to vitamins and the like. I will obviously mention that, but I'm sure he couldn't care less. He traveled a lot in his younger days and I was raised on the idea that nations are artificial constructs and that we can live just as well without them.

Dorkymon
01-10-2020, 11:52 AM
My understanding is that it's pretty much 50/50, except in the case of men it would be more like 51% from the mother and 49% from the father, due to the Y chromosome being smaller than the X chromosome. I'm not aware of any "skipping" between generations in terms of the autosomal characteristics used to attribute ethnicity, so it doesn't seem likely that you would "inherit" an ethnicity that wasn't at all expressed in either parent, though of course we all know that there are substantial differences between siblings due to the fact that we do not necessarily inherit 25% from each grandparent. I'm no expert in this, though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I double checked with LivingDNA and the differences are minimal. Skipping it is, I suppose. Also, worth noting that this admixture (Han/East Asian) is expressed in both parents, but my levels are higher.

https://i.imgur.com/A9sWGmZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/21YxkeM.png

oz
01-10-2020, 11:28 PM
No, we talked mostly about reactions to vitamins and the like. I will obviously mention that, but I'm sure he couldn't care less. He traveled a lot in his younger days and I was raised on the idea that nations are artificial constructs and that we can live just as well without them.

Particularly in the Balkans, we and our ancestors could have lived much better if we put our little differences aside and created our own empire instead of being a bunch of vassals.

Dorkymon
01-31-2020, 04:49 PM
Target
Distance
Getae/Thracian/Illyrian

Slav



Romanian_Alba:A306
0.02387456


33.6
66.4


Romanian_Alba:A325
0.02399192


60.4
39.6


Romanian_Alba:A343
0.01981584


55.0
45.0


Romanian_Alba:A362
0.02363504


54.2
45.8


Romanian_Alba:A374
0.02411434


58.8
41.2


Romanian_Gorj:G408
0.01949162


54.2
45.8


Romanian_Gorj:G421
0.01838921


68.8
31.2


Romanian_Gorj:G428
0.02139425


62.2
37.8


Romanian_Gorj:G429
0.02458889


68.2
31.8


Romanian_Gorj:G434
0.02662755


55.0
45.0


Moldovan:MOL-005
0.02698923


65.8
34.2


Moldovan:MOL-008
0.03032398


65.8
34.2


Moldovan:MOL-015
0.02987231


81.2
18.8


Moldovan:MOL-024
0.01591956


68.8
31.2


Moldovan:MOL-058
0.02596611


67.2
32.8


Moldovan:MOL-064
0.03296492


60.4
39.6


Moldovan:MOL-065
0.02326405


65.6
34.4


Moldovan:MOL-066
0.02710954


54.2
45.8


Moldovan:MOL-067
0.02589593


65.2
34.8


Moldovan:MOL-069
0.01954472


56.2
43.8


Moldovan:746_R01C01
0.02435226


41.2
58.8


Moldovan:746_R01C02
0.02329195


46.2
53.8


Moldovan:747_R01C01
0.01968543


40.8
59.2


Moldovan:747_R01C02
0.02931134


36.2
63.8


Moldovan:747_R02C01
0.02254962


42.6
57.4


Moldovan:747_R02C02
0.03191754


40.6
59.4


Moldovan:748_R01C01
0.02136346


27.4
72.6


Moldovan:748_R01C02
0.02330099


51.8
48.2


Moldovan:748_R02C01
0.02585571


21.4
78.6


Moldovan:748_R02C02
0.01597107


39.8
60.2


Moldovan:moldavian_V02612
0.02467494


34.0
66.0


Randynsky_RomanianMoldavia
0.02047806


49.4
50.6


Dorkymon_RomanianMoldavia
0.02735251


44.2
55.8


Dorkymon_mom_RomanianMoldavia
0.02143601


35.0
65.0


Dorkymon_dad_RomanianMoldavia
0.01967479


37.8
62.2


Ukrainian:ULV293_ukrainian_Lviv
0.01978587


18.4
81.6




Plus the two Sântana de Mureș/Chernaykhiv culture samples.



Target
Distance
Getae/Thracian/Illyrian
Sântana_de_Mureș
Slav


Romanian_Alba:A306
0.02230856

22.8
30.4
46.8


Romanian_Alba:A325
0.02399192

60.4
0.0
39.6


Romanian_Alba:A343
0.01970028

53.0
8.6
38.4


Romanian_Alba:A362
0.02310193

51.8
14.8
33.4


Romanian_Alba:A374
0.02290570

49.8
19.0
31.2


Romanian_Gorj:G408
0.01900284

52.4
15.8
31.8


Romanian_Gorj:G421
0.01838929

68.6
0.0
31.4


Romanian_Gorj:G428
0.02069622

56.2
18.0
25.8


Romanian_Gorj:G429
0.02458889

68.2
0.0
31.8


Romanian_Gorj:G434
0.02458284

48.6
28.2
23.2


Moldovan:MOL-005
0.02521399

57.6
32.2
10.2


Moldovan:MOL-008
0.02941845

57.6
25.8
16.6


Moldovan:MOL-015
0.02987238

81.4
0.0
18.6


Moldovan:MOL-024
0.01531409

64.8
14.2
21.0


Moldovan:MOL-058
0.02596617

67.4
0.0
32.6


Moldovan:MOL-064
0.03131929

46.8
34.0
19.2


Moldovan:MOL-065
0.02261908

64.2
18.2
17.6


Moldovan:MOL-066
0.02710460

54.0
1.4
44.6


Moldovan:MOL-067
0.02588697

64.4
1.8
33.8


Moldovan:MOL-069
0.01817157

51.6
20.0
28.4


Moldovan:746_R01C01
0.02265970

39.2
25.4
35.4


Moldovan:746_R01C02
0.02327195

45.8
2.2
52.0


Moldovan:747_R01C01
0.01937908

41.2
10.0
48.8


Moldovan:747_R01C02
0.02589584

23.0
38.4
38.6


Moldovan:747_R02C01
0.02222341

39.4
16.2
44.4


Moldovan:747_R02C02
0.02750647

18.0
46.8
35.2


Moldovan:748_R01C01
0.02065023

21.0
17.0
62.0


Moldovan:748_R01C02
0.02330033

51.6
0.6
47.8


Moldovan:748_R02C01
0.02337252

13.2
33.2
53.6


Moldovan:748_R02C02
0.01597107

39.8
0.0
60.2


Moldovan:moldavian_V02612
0.02295186

32.2
22.2
45.6


Randynsky_RomanianMoldavia
0.01992312

43.2
15.4
41.4


Dorkymon_RomanianMoldavia
0.02387932

31.4
40.0
28.6


Dorkymon_mom_RomanianMoldavia
0.02074886

28.8
17.0
54.2


Dorkymon_dad_RomanianMoldavia
0.01813665

28.4
27.2
44.4


Ukrainian:ULV293_ukrainian_Lviv
0.01808378

16.8
21.0
62.2




Here is the model:


Getae/Thracian/Illyrian:UKR_CimmerianMJ12,0.12862,0.140143,0.0173 48,-0.013566,0.019388,-0.013945,-0.00094,-0.004846,-0.005522,0.030251,0.001299,0.005695,-0.005798,-0.00523,-0.018865,0.007292,0.028033,-0.000253,0.011941,0.006253,-0.01697,0.011623,0.00456,0.010724,-0.001796
Getae/Thracian/Illyrian:Scythian_MDAscy192,0.124067,0.137096,0.01 5462,-0.020026,0.015695,-0.012829,0.00235,0.000692,0.001023,0.025878,0.0094 19,-0.000599,-0.006987,-0.008945,-0.013301,-0.009679,0.012908,0.004307,-0.000377,0.003502,-0.011729,0.009892,-0.004314,-0.004338,0.001796
Getae/Thracian/Illyrian:Scythian_MDAscy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.02 9415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
Getae/Thracian/Illyrian:Scythian_MDAscy300,0.1161,0.140143,0.0256 44,-0.031331,0.016618,-0.005299,-0.001645,-0.007384,0.007772,0.033531,0.006983,0.006744,-0.00446,-0.000963,-0.0095,0.002254,-0.000782,0.004561,0.012318,-0.006503,-0.004118,0.012489,-0.00037,-0.000723,0.010298
Getae/Thracian/Illyrian:Scythian_MDAscy305,0.118376,0.126941,0.01 0936,-0.014212,0.017849,-0.006693,-0.001175,-0.001154,0.00225,0.022415,-0.003897,0.007343,-0.013974,0.008257,-0.010179,0.000663,-0.005476,0.004181,0.016341,-0.008254,-0.009234,0.005812,-0.007395,0.007471,0.002754
Getae/Thracian/Illyrian:HRV_IAI3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Getae/Thracian/Illyrian:BGR_IAI5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Slav:CZE_Early_SlavRISE569,0.12862,0.129988,0.0682 59,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
Slav:RUS_Sunghir_MASunghir6,0.129758,0.116786,0.07 0899,0.060078,0.041238,0.018965,0.009165,0.011307, 0.001432,-0.017859,0.000487,-0.008093,0.014271,0.023809,-0.014658,-0.005834,0.00013,-0.002154,0.000628,-0.001251,-0.007986,-0.005812,0.012695,-0.010724,-0.005868
Slav:HUN_Avar_SzoladAv1,0.133173,0.132019,0.065996 ,0.049419,0.039392,0.024542,0.00893,0.008769,0.003 886,-0.013668,-0.00065,-0.007343,0.008325,0.014863,-0.012486,0.005304,-0.005346,0.00228,0.002388,0.002126,-0.001497,-0.002844,0.007888,-0.006748,0.000838
Slav:HUN_Avar_SzoladAv2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458 ,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004 704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
Sântana_de_Mureș:UKR_Chernyakhiv_LegedzineMJ19,0.1 20652,0.123895,0.059585,0.062985,0.030467,0.0251,0 .00658,0.009461,-0.002659,-0.022597,-0.001137,-0.003297,0.009217,-0.002202,-0.0019,0.006497,0.009257,-0.007728,0.006913,0,0.002371,0.00507,0.008997,0.00 0964,0.016166
Sântana_de_Mureș:UKR_Chernyakhiv_ShyshakyMJ37,0.12 1791,0.137096,0.044123,0.027455,0.020619,0.00753,0 .009165,-0.003231,-0.003272,-0.000364,-0.013803,-0.004646,-0.004014,-0.00289,-0.003529,0.012198,0.024903,0.003167,0.003142,0.009 254,-0.000998,-0.004451,0.002835,0.002048,0.005149

Dorkymon
03-08-2020, 10:25 PM
Here's a decent sample size for Romanians. The coordinates are made from Eurogenes K13.


Dorkymon_23andme+LivingDNA,25.27,29.33,15.21,9.95, 13.04,1.42,0.70,1.83,2.85,0,0.40,0,0
Dorkymon_mom_MyHeritage,19.44,37.30,15.60,10.04,13 .19,0.47,0.95,1.49,0.28,0.41,0.82,0,0
Dorkymon_dad_MyHeritage,24.14,32.44,14.55,11.75,12 .15,0,1.62,0,1.54,0.96,0,0.33,0.51
Romanian_Moldavia:Romanian_South_Central_Moldova,2 3.66,27.39,16.45,10.42,16.41,2.00,0.2,0.56,2.15,0. 37,0.35,0.04,0
Romanian_Moldavia:Romanian_North_Moldova_Bukovina, 24.97,31.21,15.12,9.58,13.13,1.48,1.49,0.47,1.74,0 .54,0.25,0,0.12
Romanian_Moldavia:Moldavian_mixed,24.45,33.59,14.9 9,9.79,10.47,1.56,1.29,0.52,1.31,0.78,0.75,0.08,0. 41
Romanian_Moldavia:Romanian_Botosani,22.52,33.55,15 .3,9.67,13.39,2.08,1.2,0.4,1.78,0,0,0,0
Romanian_Wallachia:Romanian_Oltenia,24.37,24.49,17 .09,11.28,18.04,2.14,0.55,0.27,0.83,0.60,0.18,0.09 ,0.06
Romanian_Wallachia:Romanian_Muntenia,23.20,24.80,1 9.75,10.02,20.15,0,0,0.7,1.75,0.27,0.45,0,02
Romanian_Transylvania,24.69,25.70,18.14,11.08,16.3 5,0.79,0.36,0.52,0.68,0.84,0.7,0,0.13
Romanian_Moldavia:NE_1,23.95,32.71,13.95,12.72,11. 65,1.60,0.21,0.25,2.85,0,0,0,0.10
Romanian_Moldavia:NE_2,21.25,25.58,18.57,14.13,15. 13,2.19,0.25,1.11,1.00,0.40,0.39,0,0
Romanian_Moldavia:NE_4,30.51,28.61,11.57,9.34,13.8 1,2.40,0.22,0,2.28,0,0.41,0.85,0
Romanian_Moldavia:NE_5,28.74,31.61,13.10,9.18,12.4 7,0.66,0.78,0,0.86,0.19,0.79,1.61,0
Romanian_Moldavia:NE_7,26.56,26.95,15.36,8.59,16.0 4,3.01,0.55,0.08,2.86,0,0,0,0
Romanian_Moldavia:NE_8,21.55,33.35,16.78,7.05,17.7 8,0.86,0,1.07,0.11,0.76,0,0,0.69
Romanian_Transylvania:C_1,24.63,26.61,17.48,9.90,1 4.78,1.52,1.61,1.13,1.75,0,0.56,0,0
Romanian_Transylvania:C_2,23.90,28.62,12.32,8.58,1 7.06,1.83,4.17,0.61,2.02,0.57,0.32,0,0
Romanian_Transylvania:NW_2,23.25,31.46,14.31,8.38, 18.08,1.71,0,0.05,1.52,0.92,0,0.14,0.17
Romanian_Transylvania:SW_2,22.08,25.94,19.51,10.78 ,18.12,1.49,1.44,0,0.48,0.12,0,0,0
Romanian_Transylvania:SW_3,24.07,23.90,17.92,11.29 ,17.19,2.32,0.10,0,1.67,0.53,1.01,0,0
Romanian_Transylvania:SW_4,23.87,26.56,18.22,8.34, 16.69,2.39,0,0.07,2.15,0.86,0.85,0,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_1,16.49,16.56,16.99,17.69,23. 30,2.86,1.81,1.14,1.96,0.40,0,0.79,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_2,18.01,22.11,17.36,13.84,22. 57,1.89,1.66,1.15,0,0.42,0,1.00,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_3,18.40,20.98,17.04,13.98,21. 39,2.46,2.45,0.20,1.93,0.70,0,0.46,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_4,25.67,23.15,19.43,9.43,19.1 7,1.62,0,0.78,0.42,0.34,0,0,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_8,20.83,22.41,16.42,12.81,22. 46,0.46,0.62,0,1.41,0.98,1.45,0.15,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_9,21.77,24.08,18.67,10.19,20. 22,1.83,0.21,1.54,0,0.37,0.80,0,0.33
Romanian_Wallachia:S_10,21.37,26.35,16.45,10.62,14 .45,2.01,6.21,0.08,0.61,1.61,0.24,0,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_12,21.19,26.77,18.68,9.15,19. 15,1.02,1.97,0.50,0.18,1.25,0.14,0,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_13,17.40,23.94,17.99,14.44,19 .50,3.45,1.41,0,1.24,0.42,0.07,0.15,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_14,19.94,20.52,13.16,14.70,24 .20,3.69,0.83,0,1.31,1.35,0.28,0,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_15,23.77,24.85,18.01,11.25,16 .62,1.84,1.06,0,0.12,1.27,0.57,0.19,0.45
Romanian_Wallachia:S_16,18.37,22.88,16.36,14.05,20 .80,0.57,4.22,0.89,0.77,0,1.10,0,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_17,25.16,26.55,17.25,7.34,18. 67,1.22,0.10,0.55,2.79,0.26,0,0,0.11
Romanian_Wallachia:S_19,22.64,27.57,19.56,10.20,14 .87,0.64,1.98,0,1.71,0.55,0,0.28,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_21,21.10,25.99,20.45,8.08,18. 04,0.33,1.02,0.99,2.62,0.39,0.10,0.89,0
Romanian_Wallachia:S_22,23.16,28.25,19.12,6.36,15. 60,2.40,2.74,0,0,1.22,0.87,0.13,0.16
Romanian_Wallachia:S_25,23.95,27.47,14.03,11.97,18 .04,1.55,1.75,0,0.99,0.24,0,0,0
Romanian_Dobruja:SE_6,22.23,28.36,19.07,12.48,14.9 1,0.52,0.79,0.31,0,0.21,0.86,0.25,0
Romanian_Dobruja:SE_7,22.08,24.92,18.64,9.44,20.04 ,0.67,2.40,0.51,0.33,0.62,0.34,0,0
Romanian_Dobruja:SE_11,22.73,24.91,19.63,10.59,16. 07,1.66,1.38,0.20,1.36,0.94,0.53,0,0
Romanian_Dobruja:SE_12,24.78,25.63,14.93,11.92,15. 37,2.49,1.72,0.11,1.98,0.70,0.37,0,0
Romanian_Dobruja:SE_14,23.42,22.53,16.80,12.12,17. 72,4.15,0,0,1.19,0.75,0.26,1.03,0
Romanian_Dobruja:SE_15,21.75,29.53,15.63,11.25,16. 39,0.98,1.08,0,3.24,0,0.15,0,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Sofia,20.64,27.60,18.10,9.15,1 7.80,2.88,0.90,0.53,0.82,0.70,0.66,0.20,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Dupnitsa,27.23,27.16,16.45,9.7 8,13.18,2.69,0,0.28,2.16,0.23,0.84,0,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Southwest,26.90,22.33,16.06,9. 16,21.27,1.27,0.06,0.11,2.00,0.56,0.29,0.00,0.00
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Serres,22.95,22.58,19.15,8.27, 19.21,5.11,1.60,0.07,0.20,0.49,0,0,0.36
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Thrace,17.09,19.89333,19.62667 ,12.54,24.65667,2.01,2.416667,0.726667,0.753333,0, 0.286667,0,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Eastern-Rhodopes,21.73,21.46,17.37,14.88,16.78,3.54,1.61,1 .12,0,0.47,0.88,0.16,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Central,24.07,22.36,18.89,9.84 ,19.77,1.91,0.21,0,1.53,0.97,0.44,0.01,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Northwest,16.56,29.65,18.57,12 .5,17.17,2.86,0,1.4,0.38,0,0.91,0,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Pazardzhik,17.05,26.34,20.12,1 1.33,18.95,2.93,0,0.48,0.95,0.76,0.53,0.54,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Burgas,23.92,21.59,14.33,17.54 ,19.18,1.39,0.35,0.27,0.49,0,0,0.94,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Pleven,24.14,27.52,16.69,7.96, 18.37,1.31,1.09,0.31,1.44,0.96,0.21,0,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Gabrovo,22.02,23.32,18.08,12.1 7,18.41,3.15,1.36,0.41,1.08,0,0,0,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Ruse,17.59,29.84,17.48,15.72,1 5.73,1.36,0,0.45,0.25,0,1.40,0.18,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Plovdiv,23.68,20.24,18.62,11.6 3,22.44,1.85,0,0,0,0.99,0.55,0,0
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_Stara-Zagora,21.65,24.49,17.67,11.29,19.07,3.29,0,0,1.33 ,0,1.08,0,0.13
Bulgarian:Bulgarian_North-Rhodope,21.90,22.46,18.39,13.49,19.27,2.48,0,0.29, 0.73,0.62,0.37,0,0
Pomak:Pomak_Komotini,15.18,22.66,17.87,16.57,21.45 ,3.07,0.04,0.92,0.63,0.9,0.45,0,0.27
Pomak:Pomak_Central-Macedonia,24.01,21.38,13.21,13.02,20.84,5.57,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0
Pomak:Pomak_Xanthi,14.67,28.41,17.04,8.30,26.71,3. 25,0,0,0.49,1.13,0,0,0
Pomak:Pomak_Plovdiv,21.86,27.36,16.93,7.50,22.14,1 .68,0,0.82,0,0.78,0.23,0.47,0.24
Pomak:Pomak_Nevrokopi,20.29,23.47,17.57,12.92,20.7 ,2.76,0,0.75,0.19,0.68,0.66,0,0
Pomak:Pomak_Drama,17.96,22.92,16.03,14.84,21.63,3. 02,1.80,0,1.02,0.59,0.20,0,0
Pomak:Pomak_Kavala,21.86,24.65,14.51,14.45,16.30,6 .90,0.25,0,0,0,0,1.08,0
Vlach:Vlach_Central-Macedonia,21.16,16.34,21.87,11.20,23.99,4.14,0.06, 0.43,0,0,0.81,0,0
Vlach:Vlach_North-Macedonia,22.21,19.88,20.33,11.84,19.73,4.68,0,0.6 6,0,0,0.67,0,0
Vlach:Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander,21.34,21.03,18.47,10.96,22.05,4.71,0,0, 0,1.06,0.25,0.12,0
North_Macedonian:Macedonian_Southwest,18.21,23.02, 22.24,10.01,23.19,2.53,0,0.8,0,0,0,0,0
North_Macedonian:Macedonian_Central,19.26,23.57,21 .08,12.68,20.06,1.89,0,0.17,1.10,0,0,0,0.20
North_Macedonian:Macedonian_Southeast,21.19,19.31, 17.17,15.1,20.65,3.91,0,0.84,0.59,0.29,0.95,0,0
North_Macedonian:Macedonian_East,23.4,22.77,19.9,8 .95,21.84,1.13,0,0.77,0.85,0.16,0,0,0.24
North_Macedonian:Macedonian_Northwest,23.21,23.67, 19.11,10.68,18.68,2.14,0.58,0.47,1.46,0,0,0,0
North_Macedonian:Macedonian_North,20.21,24.00,21.2 5,10.02,21.18,2.53,0,0.81,0,0,0,0,0
North_Macedonian:Macedonian:North_Macedonian,23.77 5,21.6875,19.2675,10.7825,20.785,2.01,0.16,0.0475, 0.36,0.5625,0.475,0,0.075
North_Macedonian_Torbeshi:Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central,21.08,20.82,21.51,10.81,23.51,0.98,0,0,0.1 6,0.74,0.39,0,0
North_Macedonian_Torbeshi:Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East,19.26,17.27,22.23,11.81,23.16,3.03,0,1.33,0.9 3,0.98,0,0,0
Albanian,21.07,17.56,23.81,11.15,23.81,1.62,0.25,0 .07,0.15,0.13,0.17,0.00,0.00
Albanian:Kosovo_Albanian,22.4377777778,17.98444444 44,20.7755555556,12.7611111111,22.0188888889,2.454 4444444,0.3922222222,0.37,0.1777777778,0.246666666 7,0.34,0.0233333333,0.0166666667
Serbian:Serbian_new,25.1342857143,30.1357142857,16 .5271428571,8.7135714286,15.37,1.75,0.3692857143,0 .2928571429,0.8414285714,0.3471428571,0.3021428571 ,0.0435714286,0.0978571429
Serbian:Serbian_Bosnia,26.2975,31.9975,15.9675,7.8 1,13.62,1.785,0.58,0.6375,0.625,0.18,0.3975,0.1075 ,0
Serbian:Serb_Croatia,24.61,30.10,17.60,8.67,14.73, 1.85,0.50,0.16,1.05,0.23,0.36,0.01,0.05
Serbian:Serb_North-Macedonia,18.17,25.73,24.26,13.50,14.58,2.09,0,0,0 ,0.99,0,0.68,0
Bosnian,24.8393333333,31.8286666667,15.1766666667, 8.9433333333,14.028,1.6373333333,1.59,0.5746666667 ,0.5813333333,0.3766666667,0.346,0.0106666667,0.08 4
Bosnian:Bosniak_Sandzak,24.31,25.40,19.12,9.89,16. 79,2.86,0.35,0.25,0.20,0.51,0.13,0.00,0.19
Bosnian:Bosniak_Tuzla,27.03,35.88,13.58,7.51,12.14 ,0.81,0.39,0.38,0.78,0.57,0.51,0.20,0.27
South_Croat_Morlach,25.25,29.91,16.48,8.85,15.03,1 .97,0.74,0.26,0.64,0.48,0.17,0.01,0.16
Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16,1.09,0. 91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07
Ukrainian:Ukrainian_Belgorod,25.78,47.29,7.85,8.78 ,5.54,0.58,1.10,0.71,1.02,0.59,0.25,0.16,0.34
Ukrainian:Ukrainian_Lviv,27.35,41.85,11.96,7.10,5. 29,1.79,1.20,0.39,1.36,0.82,0.75,0.00,0.13
Greek:Greek_Thessaly,19.12,16.32,20.63,11.87,25.40 ,3.83,1.35,0.09,0.20,0.70,0.32,0.13,0.03
Greek:Greek_Andros_Island,19.35,10.61,18.08,15.98, 28.96,4.76,0,0.37,0.54,0.73,0,0.64,0
Greek:Greek_Chios,12.26,6.67,20.79,20.21,33.04,5.5 6,0,0.58,0.45,0.02,0.19,0.18,0
Greek:Greek_Dodecanese,11.6,4.81,21.36,16.98,35.05 ,7.015,1.49,0.58,0.36,0.33,0.07,0.27,0.13
Greek:Greek_Macedonia_Thrace,15.23,16.22,18.36,17. 97,26.41,3.56,0.54,0.36,0.58,0,0.53,0.15,0.03
Greek:Greek_Peloponnese,18.56,14.36,21.06,15.04,24 .24,5.05,0,0.57,0.29,0.28,0.17,0,0.32
Greek:Greek_Symi_Island,14.19,2.63,21.63,17.09,35. 08,5.84,1.17,0.68,0.64,0,0,0.7,0.34
Greek:Greek_Istanbul,18.08,15.35,16.12,19.69,26.36 ,2.59,0,0,0.53,0.42,0.73,0.13,0
Greek:Greek_Eastern-Thrace,16.34,17.89,20.20,13.03,27.42,3.63,0,0,1.02 ,0.31,0.13,0,0
Greek:Greek_Western-Thrace,21.88,13.08,22.91,12.65,25.86,1.90,0,1.34,0 ,0.38,0,0,0
Greek:Greek_Eastern-Macedonia,20.66,15.94,21.89,13.13,22.35,4.13,0,0.4 1,0.19,0,0.06,1.25,0
Greek:Greek_Western-Macedonia,22.83,18.2,18.37,13.76,23.52,1.52,0,0.49 ,1.28,0,0,0,0
Greek:Greek_Northern-Thrace,19.04,22.53,19.23,12.02,24.12,0,0,0,1.00,0, 1.52,0,0
Greek:Greek_Thessaloniki,19.32,20.53,20.5,11.27,25 .05,2.32,0,0,0.73,0.29,0,0,0
Greek:Greek_Central-Macedonia,23.34,16.97,18.98,11.86,22.95,3.96,0,0,0 .81,0.64,0.46,0,0
Greek:Greek_Macedonia:Macedonian_Greece,16.58,23.4 2,18.82,14.49,23.78,0.88,0,1.48,0.25,0,0.12,0,0.18


https://i.imgur.com/rL22WlM.png

Dorkymon
03-09-2020, 09:41 PM
Moldavian, Wallachian and Transylvanian clusters

https://i.imgur.com/TnoODZX.png