Need help interpreting results for McElmurry, M222

[Mac von Frankfurt]

I am researching the surname McElmurry (son of the devote of the BV Mary). I suspect they are related to an Ulster family such as MacGill-Muire, Cu-Uladh O'Morna. It seems less likely they are related to MacGilleMhoire of Lewis or McIlvory of Mann since both groups nearly universally changed their names to Morrison.

The Y-DNA results at the Morrison DNA project include results for two McElmurry found in group N1 at the following link.

http://morrisondna.x10.bz/morrison/public_html/Morrison%20DNA%20Project.htm

M093-SMGF lists an earliest known ancestor of Billy Preston McElmurry of Kentucky whose line intersects my line at David McElmurry born 1775 near the Kentucky/Illinois border. M093-SMGF is a 34/34 match with M209-149692 who lists an earliest known ancestor of Patrick McElmurry born 1730 in Ireland.

Being a complete beginner in this field I have many questions but I will start with two. Do the DNA results support an Ulster connection (at the time surnames came into use) over a Hebridian or Lowlands one and what else can be gleaned from these results?

Thanks in advance!

[Mac von Frankfurt]

I calculated GDs between McElmurry 149692 and all members of the Morrison DNA project at 37 markers. Results from the regions of interest include:

Isles of Lewis and Harris: five I-M253 at GD 54
Lewis, Harris, and North Uist: ten R-M269 and two R-L48 at GD 21
Isle of Mann: three Mylvorrey/McGilvorrs/Morrison R-DF5 at GD 16

The Morrison project specifically targeted the Hebrides and no R-M222 has been found on the islands by the project. McElmurry 149692 has a GD of:

9 from the R-M222 modal
10 from a group of R-M222 Gilmore/Gilmour
11 from a group of R-DF5 Morrison
14 from a group of R-M222 Morrison

Not the Hebrides is looking pretty strong at this point.

[MacUalraig]

I am M222 and have close matches to the Gilmours so I'd be interested in discussing in further detail if you like. The origins of all these names are hard to unravel, there was a group of O Gilmore on the Ards peninsula which I posted about elsewhere recently but it is always possible the name was adopted (separately) in Ayrshire where it is common. But even the most accurate DNA is going to struggle when you are as close to a national/geographic boundary as Ards! So I wouldn't at this stage say you can split Ulster from lowland Scotland.

MacUalraig in Glasgow, Scotland

[alan]

No the Hebridean Gilmores and the native Irish Gilmores are not related. The only connection is that the surnames are Gaelic and have the same meaning. The County Down native Irish McGilmore/O'Gilmores are an ancient local group. However, this is complicated by the fact that there was Scottish plantation settlers potentially from the Scottish Gilmores into the same sort of area that the Irish Gilmores were located in country Down. To complicate it further I think there was another group of Gilmuirs in the Scottish lowlands who were related to neither the Irish or the Hebridean Gilmores. There has also been movement in the opposite direction too. So, today the picture will be complicated. Usually a religious pattern in Ulster helps sort this out but in fact it appears that in the area where the Irish Gilmores were settled, many of the natives converted to Protestantism along with other small clans like McGimpsey etc and both names are common among protestants now. I think to sort them out into groups genetically it will simply take building up a large database of all Gilmores until the pattern becomes clearer. The complex two way traffic between Ulster and Scotland will mean it may take a big group to sort this out. It is worth noting though that the plantation of Ulster specifically banned the 'wild' island Scots from the Hebrides taking part so Gilmores in Ulster should not really be from the Hebrides. So, in Ulster Gilmores are likely to be native Irish or lowland Scots.

[Dubhthach]

Gilmore is also a west of Ireland name specifically tied to the Uí Fhiachrach (descendants of Fiachrae half-brother of Niall) . In which case it's probably M222+, knew several Gilmores growing up in Galway:


Mac GIOLLA MHIR—IV—M'Gilver, M'Gilmer, Gilmer, Gilmor; 'son of Giolla mear' (the merry, lively youth); the name of an old family of the Ui Fiachrach race in Co. Sligo, formerly seated in the townland of Finnure, in the barony of Tireragh.

[Mac von Frankfurt]

MacUalraig,

Thanks for responding!

Given Mary is the most famous woman in Christendom I agree a separate adoption in Ayrshire is possible. I also agree it will be difficult to sort out Ulster from Lowland Scotland. This is true of many surnames and while the migration patterns of M222 are likely to continue to be of interest among academics, hobbyists, and some clans I expect those discussions will create more heat than light.

Back on the trail of my McElmurry I see four possibilities. (1) They are associated with the O'Gilmores of Ulster and crossed over to Scotland between say 1500 to 1600. A few generations later they were replanted into Ulster. They migrated to the colonies in the 1700s. (2) Same as the previous except they never left Ulster until migrating to the colonies. Instead of going to Scotland they stayed put or migrated to western Ulster. (3) They originated in Scotland migrated to Ulster during the plantations and then to the colonies. (4) They originated in Scotland and migrated to the colonies.

Can Y-DNA testing help us discern between these possibilities? If I were to recruit a McIlmurray from Ayrshire into the Morrison project what might we learn?

Alan, thanks for responding.

You posted while I was composing my response to MacUalraig and your post answers my subsequent question. A McIlmurray from the Lowlands would be a useful addition to the project but it will take many more Gilmores to flesh out the pattern.

What type of testing is going to be needed? Are we talking complete Y-DNA at this point?

[Mac von Frankfurt]

No the Hebridean Gilmores and the native Irish Gilmores are not related. The only connection is that the surnames are Gaelic and have the same meaning. The County Down native Irish McGilmore/O'Gilmores are an ancient local group. However, this is complicated by the fact that there was Scottish plantation settlers potentially from the Scottish Gilmores into the same sort of area that the Irish Gilmores were located in country Down. To complicate it further I think there was another group of Gilmuirs in the Scottish lowlands who were related to neither the Irish or the Hebridean Gilmores. There has also been movement in the opposite direction too. So, today the picture will be complicated. Usually a religious pattern in Ulster helps sort this out but in fact it appears that in the area where the Irish Gilmores were settled, many of the natives converted to Protestantism along with other small clans like McGimpsey etc and both names are common among protestants now. I think to sort them out into groups genetically it will simply take building up a large database of all Gilmores until the pattern becomes clearer. The complex two way traffic between Ulster and Scotland will mean it may take a big group to sort this out. It is worth noting though that the plantation of Ulster specifically banned the 'wild' island Scots from the Hebrides taking part so Gilmores in Ulster should not really be from the Hebrides. So, in Ulster Gilmores are likely to be native Irish or lowland Scots.

Thanks for that.

Can we infer anything from the fact McElmurrys only did phonetic anglicization and kept the Mac. Are they more likely to be native Irish or were they just not in commerce where Gilmore or Morrison may have been more advantageous.

My McElmurry branch lost connection with their church while following the deer hide trade on the North American frontier. When they were re-enlightened they became Methodists in the main except for Old Uncle Henry the Baptist and his followers.

[alan]

I recommend 'The Book of Ulster Surnames' by Robert Bell. It is an intelligent book that considers native Irish, Scottish, English etc names found in Ulster. It is very good in terms of pointing out all the duplicate surnames, their various origins and the probability of which one is most likely. Its a far better book than McLysaght which doesnt go into anywhere much as detail and has a poorer understanding of the issue of duplicate names.


Thanks for that.

Can we infer anything from the fact McElmurrys only did phonetic anglicization and kept the Mac. Are they more likely to be native Irish or were they just not in commerce where Gilmore or Morrison may have been more advantageous.

My McElmurry branch lost connection with their church while following the deer hide trade on the North American frontier. When they were re-enlightened they became Methodists in the main except for Old Uncle Henry the Baptist and his followers.

[Mac von Frankfurt]

I've concluded a 12-marker test will be highly predictive due to the rarity of McElmurry and DYS393=14 which is rare in R-M222. In fact I could only find a half dozen folks in FTDNA projects that only varied from the R-M222 modal for 12 markers due to having 14 at the first marker. Seems like an economical way to reach out to Ulster and Scotland and pull a group together while waiting for the industry to shake out and the prices on complete Y to drop. Am I missing something here?

[MacUalraig]

Mac, I suspect this has been looked at already on the main M222 list - and in fact there was a post mentioning DYS393=14 by Colin Ferguson on the ferguson-dna list and there may be others if you do a bit of archive searching.
If you just match on one off-modal marker you may of course by Identical by State not Descent so you need to study all those who match and figure it out.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ferguson-dna/2012-04/1334948150

Main list:

http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/DNA/DNA-R1B1C7.html

Colin was posting on the main list at least up to last year so your query might be best posted there.

MacUalraig

[Mac von Frankfurt]

I recommend 'The Book of Ulster Surnames' by Robert Bell. It is an intelligent book that considers native Irish, Scottish, English etc names found in Ulster. It is very good in terms of pointing out all the duplicate surnames, their various origins and the probability of which one is most likely. Its a far better book than McLysaght which doesnt go into anywhere much as detail and has a poorer understanding of the issue of duplicate names.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I found it in a library nearby. I also checked the 1901 Census which was enlightening.




Mac, I suspect this has been looked at already on the main M222 list - and in fact there was a post mentioning DYS393=14 by Colin Ferguson on the ferguson-dna list and there may be others if you do a bit of archive searching.
If you just match on one off-modal marker you may of course by Identical by State not Descent so you need to study all those who match and figure it out.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ferguson-dna/2012-04/1334948150

Main list:

http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/DNA/DNA-R1B1C7.html

Colin was posting on the main list at least up to last year so your query might be best posted there.

MacUalraig

Thanks for the links. I think I understand state now. The R-M222 project spreadsheet shows just how far people can diverge from the modal in a few thousand years. Comparing the first row to the last row of the main group there is a double digit GD at 12 markers. And the group in the middle who are all on the modal could have arrived at their current state though many different paths. I assume most who are on modal today wondered off and came back although statistically with a large enough population someone could stay on-modal for 2000 years.

So what is the expected number of steps in the first 12 STRs over 2000 years?

[cilldara]

I recommend 'The Book of Ulster Surnames' by Robert Bell. It is an intelligent book that considers native Irish, Scottish, English etc names found in Ulster. It is very good in terms of pointing out all the duplicate surnames, their various origins and the probability of which one is most likely. Its a far better book than McLysaght which doesnt go into anywhere much as detail and has a poorer understanding of the issue of duplicate names.

It's a very insightful book alright.

[cilldara]

I sure hope Eamon isn't M222! ;)

[Moyacook]

I was researching my surname- McElmurry. Your post caught my interest because Henry McElmurry was my great, great grandfather!