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rivergirl
09-15-2013, 02:26 AM
I thought I would open a thread about CTS1751, as I can not reply to or start messages on the L21 Yahoo Group with Yahoo's new format.>:(

Kit 55192, Whalen, L144+, recently tested Geno 2.0 and is positive for CTS1751.


David Reynolds posted on the L21 Yahoo Group - CTS1751 (rs11799049) is derived in 23andME v2 samples for Brazile and Griffeth, Brazile being associated with L144+. It is also derived in 1000 Genomes sample NA12340, which is L144+.

J Brazile posted - Regarding 23andme, my son and I both did their v2 chip and both of us were reported L144+. But then I upgraded to v3 and it came back L144-. My brother and dad did v3 and both were reported as "no call" on L144.
My brother 55018 has agreed to do the CTS1751 test now.

Mikewww7 posted - The CTS1751+ 82797 Benjamin Nichols has only 37 STRs but matches the L144+ Bracewell/Brazil group.



CTS1751+ tested at Geno 2.0 are;
55192, Whalen
82797 Nichols

CTS1751+ tested at 23and Me are;
Brazile
Griffeth

Currently awaiting results for CTS1751 at FTDNA are;
132634 Whalen
86333 Phalen
57993 Prosser
55018 Brazile.


David Reynolds posted -
The Kendall who tested with Geno 2.0 is L144+ CTS1751-.

The Griffeth at 23andME was L144- CTS1751+. However, note that L144 at 23andME is a flaky probe. One of the Braziles tested L144+ and the other L144-, and this is a father/son combo.

Where I think we are headed on this, assuming that all the test results turn out the way I think they will, is that R-CTS1751 will replace R-L144 on the ISOGG tree. This will be the Brazile, Bracewell, Whelan, Prosser et al. families.

There will then be three variations of L144, which will not be listed on the ISOGG tree:
L144.1+ located under R-U152 (HUGO Ref Seq is L144.1+)
L144.2+ approx. equivalent to CTS1751+ (currently labeled L144.1)
L144.3+ located under R-DF13, Kendall family private SNP

Geno 2.0 results have already established that CTS1751 is mutually exclusive with the other 13 subclades of R-DF13.

Note that L144, while on the the Geno 2.0 chip, is blacklisted--it always returns L144-.


cheers

Mikewww
09-26-2013, 02:28 PM
...

CTS1751+ tested at 23and Me are;
Brazile
Griffeth

Thank you for the status. This is a confusing one.

I'm going to switch to CTS1751 in the spreadsheet as the "lead with" haplogroup defining SNP. CTS1751 looks like ISOGG's direction. I'll also manually relabel the Braczille/Bracewell/etc L144+ people as L144.2+ manually. I don't like to do these manual changes but L144.2 appears effectively equivalent to CTS1751 so I will assume that in the spreadsheet haplogroup labels. Please update us if that changes. If it does change, I'll probably just throw L144 out altogether.

Do you have kit#'s or Ysearch IDs for the 23andMe Brazille and Griffeth folks?
I'll add them to the spreadsheet whether they have STRs or not?

P.S. On the L21 project news yahoo group, if you need to post something you can also just send an email to the message board ID. The email subject line becomes the topic/conversation title.

R1b-L21-Project@yahoogroups.com

Likewise, if you receive messages from the R1b-L21-Project yahoo group by email (which is an option) you can reply by simply replying through your email functions.

rivergirl
10-23-2013, 12:23 AM
57993 Prosser tested CTS1751+
132634 Whalen tested CTS1751+

Still waiting on other results to come in.

rivergirl
10-28-2013, 03:45 AM
55018 Brazile CTS1751+

Still waiting on results for 86333 Phalen

MJost
01-10-2014, 04:30 PM
Any updates on this possible ancestral SNP to L144? CTS1751>L144

MJost

rivergirl
01-11-2014, 02:47 AM
Not much more to report as yet.


CTS1751+ tested at 23and Me;
Brazile, USA, also L144+
Griffeth, unknown, is this a Welsh name?


CTS1751+ tested at Geno 2.0;
55192, Whalen, born 1751 Erril, Co Laois, Ireland
82797, Nichols, bc 1746 USA, - possibly from Fife, Scotland c1640s or maybe Isle of Skye 1620s.
274385, Horton, born 1759, Hartford, England, died USA - (probably Hortons of Hartford, Northumberland, Eng)

Horton and Nicholls do not match the usual L144.1 Whelan/Brazile/Bracewell/Prosser etc.. haplotype.
They each have 10 or more matches within their surname groups, and the two surname groups do not appear to match closely.
Two men within these surname haplotypes are L144-;
162032, Nicholls and 12300, Horton


Tested CTS1751+ at FTDNA;
132634, Whalen, born c1750, Ireland
57993, Prosser, born 1767, Wales
55018, Brazile, USA


Still awaiting results for CTS1751 at FTDNA;
86333 Phalen, born circa 1830 Ireland


I do not know if any men have tested at Britains DNA and I haven't seen any Whalen/Phelans order the Big Y.
(I tested my brother for the Big Y, he's not my Whelan relative, and I couldn't afford to do both.)

MJost
01-11-2014, 03:48 AM
Rivergirl, with so many DF13 subclades, I was finding it hard to keep up with all the changes. Thanks for the information.

FYI, I am negative for both SNPs.

MJost

rivergirl
08-17-2014, 04:40 AM
I noticed a new CTS1751+ man in the Bear-Barr project. N123029.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/bear-bar/default.aspx?section=ysnp
He has been SNP tested via Geno2, but has no STRs.

Ancestors name is Hans Jagli BAR born 1612 Switzerland.

Still waiting on Big Y results for Whelan and Braswell.
Will be interesting to see the comparisons between these two groups aswell as with the Case/
Redden/Brewer Big Y results.

rivergirl
09-06-2014, 03:48 AM
Just had the Big Y results in for Whelan 83115 and have sent the Raw data file to Mike W at the L21 project.
Braswell should have his results soon.

Other CTS1751+ men with Big y results are;
N28444 Case
141799 Redden
28385 Brewer
I hope they send their Raw results in aswell.


We have another man matching us at 67 markers, who has kindly joined the Whalen - O'Faolain Project.
313934, Lobbia from Italy. His results look like he might be CTS1751/L195.
I hope they will do a SNP test.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/whalen/default.aspx?section=yresults

Little bit
09-06-2014, 11:14 AM
My grandfather is a Griffith, eldest Y ancestor from Cardigan Wales and he is G for rs11799049 (using his 23andme v2 raw data). This appears to be the derived allele and I guess I should test him for CTS1751 at FTDNA? He is kit #259187.

**Edited to add L144 info. Looks like the snp is rs9306842, grandpa is A, which I assume means he is negative for 144? I don't know if this switched when he upgraded to v3, I have his v2 raw data but I can't find the snp under position 22711460. Does anyone know if this snp was listed under a different position in build 36?

rivergirl
09-06-2014, 12:30 PM
Hi Little bit,

Your results do look more like the Brewer/Case/Redden/Smallwood/Nichols/Horton CTS1751 group than the CTS1751>L144+ guys.
David Reynolds has you as L144-.
Did you have a result for L195/S354? position 22711461..22711465
TTTTTTTTTAAA-> TTTTTTTTTAAAA

Little bit
09-06-2014, 01:21 PM
Did you have a result for L195/S354? position 22711461..22711465

No, not genotyped for that snp. My grandpa is tested on v2, v3 upgrade, and FTDNA to 67 markers. I did purchase the CTS1751 snp this morning since he definitely carries the derived result for it at 23andme. My grandpa only got 1 match at 12 markers, 0-Step another Griffith. The man passed away 2 years before my grandpa tested and I have yet to place him in my tree but it's pretty certain he's got to be close since they share so many off-modal results. At 67 markers, he gets 10 matches:

5 steps surname Allen predicted by FTDNA R-M269

6 steps:
Lewis L21
2 Brown's L21
Scott R-M269
2 Jones R-M269
Rowberry L21

7 Steps:
Owen L21
Lewis L21

Little bit
09-20-2014, 12:56 PM
Great news! My grandfather's CTS1751 came in positive and it's showing up as his terminal snp. Do you have any advice on groups to join? I plan on emailing his matches to let them know and maybe they will test, too. Do you think this is a specific Welsh lineage of CTS1751? Under FTDNA's 'Haplotree and Snp's" it's shows 'Your Confirmed Haplogroup is R-CTS1751' with L195 in yellow being presumed positive. There are no blue, test available, snps so it appears this is it.

Jean M
10-10-2014, 05:00 PM
Do you think this is a specific Welsh lineage of CTS1751?

I'm sticking my neck out and suggesting it comes from the royal line of Dyfed (which was Irish).

rivergirl
10-11-2014, 01:06 AM
We have Big y results for 4 men, Case Redden, Brewer and Whelaen, waiting on results for a Braswell/Brazile.
You can see the SNP results for Case, Redden and Whelan at Alex Williamson L R21Big Tree. Hopefully Braswell/Brazile results will be in soon and we can compare theirs aswell for in common SNPs
http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/Tree.html

rivergirl
01-18-2015, 02:05 AM
We have Big Y results for Brazile 187485 and Brassil 168985.
See http://www.littlescottishcluster.com/RL21/NGS/R-CTS1751.html

Brewer hasn't made his results available to the L21 group or Alex Williamson yet, but looking at his results through our Big Y matches he does not share the
Z17966, Z17967, Z17968, Z17969 results that Case, Whelan and the Brazile/Brassils have.

Marcia
03-09-2015, 04:54 PM
Sorry, I'm not too blog literate, but am seeking assistance in learning more about my dad's Big Y results. He was R1b1a2a1a1b4 and is now R-CTS1751. I've been told he may be of Irish origins. His only surname Y-37 match GD-1 is also Case. Both men are from 18th century Pennsylvania and possibly Maryland roots. We would love to tie to the land of origin. Dad's name was George Battle Case, his approx 5th cousin match is George William Case. Any way to collaborate with you all who are more on the cutting edge?? So I see my Dad, GBC is shown in your table his kit N82444. Oral family hx on both sides is land of origin is Ireland and Protestant. Maybe meaning they migrated from England/Scotland or Wales??

Best regards,
Marcia

rivergirl
03-14-2015, 09:38 AM
Hi Marcia, we really don't know much about the CTS1751 group at the moment.
Case, Redden, Brewer, Smallwood, Griffiths etc. have a very different haplotype from the Whelan/Phelan, Braswell/Brazile halpotype, which makes me think they may be an older cluster.
The surnames are scattered in Southern Ireland, Northern Ireland, WesternScotland and Isles, England and a few in Wales.
There is also a CTS1751+ man from Swizterland.

If you can download or share your dads BigY results, you can get FGC to do an analysis and interpretation on them and then share those results with the L21 group at FGC. This might tell us something in the future?

Mike W posted about this on the L21 section a while back.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3967-Big-Y-BAM-FGC-interpretation-option-and-discount-for-L21

If you mention your in L21 you also get a discount.

I still haven't been able to do this with my relatives results yet.

Little bit
03-27-2015, 01:30 PM
Hi,

Just an update: My grandfather received a 37 marker match, GD 2, with a gentleman who descends from the same Y ancestor: Evan Griffith, b. 1729 Cardigan Wales d. 1795 Fauquier VA. He tested for CTS1751 and came back positive so I am sure of this line of decent. I have another Griffith Y match, from Wales, but he has not snp tested and passed away in 2010. I traced his genealogy and their common Griffith ancestor was in Wales sometime prior to immigrating to the US, his Griffith ancestor during the late 1600's to Chester PA and ours in 1751 to Virginia.

The 2 markers that are different for my grandpa and his match who both descend from Evan Griffith are DYS389-II, my grandpa is 32 and match is 31, and CDY, my grandpa is 36-39 and match is 36-38. I did a comparison of the CTS1751 results in the L21 & Subclades group, page 5 of the results page, and my grandpa and his match share many markers which are off modal compared to the rest of the group. DYS439 is unique in the group at 10, not sure if that is meaningful or not.

Ramdab
05-29-2015, 10:52 AM
Rivergirl, just thought i would give a yell that i (weeks kit 91802 L195+)'just sent geno 2.0 kit in for testing so we will see if i test cts1751 pos.

rivergirl
07-02-2015, 11:44 PM
Great news Ramdab, look forward to the results.
Ive noticed on my relatives Big Y page he has a few new matches.
Larkin, no MDKA posted.
Venn, from Devon, England.

rivergirl
07-12-2015, 06:16 AM
Another CTS1751 man popped up in Big Y today.
Capp from Buckinghamshire, England.

smokobob
08-04-2015, 09:21 PM
Hi Rivergirl,
I'm your "Venn, from Devon, England".
'Been paper chasing for many years, but completely new to DNA research -
So, hastening slowly, and lurking in the background.
Glad to have picked up your thread.
Expecting results of YFull shortly.
smokobob

CCreedSmith
11-09-2015, 07:49 PM
I am Clifford Creed Smith. I just recently was confirmed CTS1751 (thru FTDNA). Some of my 37 and 67 matches have come up Whalen, some Redden, Some Redding, some Arnold, some Hill, and yes, several Smith. Seems like the Smith goes quite far back, but I don't see any other Smith's posting here.
Anyway, just thought I'd go out there and reveal myself as a Smith with CTS1751. I guess it just adds to the confusion though!

CCreedSmith
11-09-2015, 07:52 PM
BTW, I live in the Washington, DC area, grew up in Virginia, father's roots go way back in Virginia, at least to mid to late 1700s. Earliest certain was Robert Smith, born 1816, Franklin County Virginia.

rivergirl
11-10-2015, 03:48 AM
Hi Clifford, welcome to the CTS1751 club.

Have you uploaded your Bam files to L21 Yahoo Group or passed them onto Alex Williamson as yet.
Alex maintains the L21 Big Y Tree
http://www.ytree.net/

He has results for 8 CTS1751 Big Y results and 1 from 1K Gemones. You can then compare where you sit in CTS1751 tree.

Interested to see which Whalens you match. Can you send me a private message?
Do you also match any Braziles/Bracewells?

Frances

rivergirl
12-22-2015, 06:02 AM
Looks like FTDNA have split our Bug Y CTS1751 guys up a bit.
Brazille and Brasil R-FGC32861
Whelan and McMaster BY595
Capp BY596
Venn BY404
Case BY3227
Redden, Brewer and Smith CTS1751

dhogshead
12-27-2015, 09:18 PM
Hi I'm David Hogshead and just confirmed CTS1751+ through FTDNA's M343 Backbone test (Kit 434089). I went ahead and ordered Big Y today to check for any further downstream and/or personal SNPs. I have also tested Y-DNA111 and have joined the L21 group at FTDNA.

My most distant known ancestor is John Hogshead who appeared among the Scotch-Irish settlers in Pennsylvania before 1734, and later removed to Augusta County Virginia where he died in 1756. There is also a John Hogshead that was baptized in Edinburgh Parrish Scotland in 1686 who may be one in the same.

rivergirl
12-28-2015, 01:50 AM
Welcome to the CTS1751 clan David. I can't see your STRs at the L21 project yet, look forward to seeing them, along with your Big Y results.
Do you have many matches at 67 and 111?

dhogshead
12-29-2015, 01:52 PM
Hi Rivergirl, my STRs should be view-able at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21?iframe=ycolorized (currently showing up on p.5). I don't currently have any 67 or 111 matches. In fact, it looks like have quite a few off-model and a couple of unique SNPs compared to fellow CTS1751 folks seen there... more diversity yet. I'll be curious to see if any personal SNPs show up in the Big Y.
David

Little bit
03-02-2016, 02:37 PM
Hello again fellow CTS1751 enthusiasts:

Just want to update on new snp results for my grandfather. I noticed that some snp's showed up under CTS1751 at FTDNA so I took a chance and ordered Z17967. It came back negative which means he must be negative for all the snp's below it:
8024

Hopefully someday we'll get our own group and we'll learn more about this history of this interesting lineage. I'd be curious how the Irish and Welsh CTS1751's differ from each other?

brraumstr
03-02-2016, 11:39 PM
I am another Smith CTS1751, Close match to Smith/Brewer group, MDKA in 1790s Virginia. I have been following this thread for some time, so thought it time to say hello.

smokobob
03-22-2016, 05:02 AM
I have just been advised by FTDNA, that I am an unusual CTS1751 plus also BY404.
However, officially, my terminal SNP is R-CTS1751.

rivergirl
04-10-2016, 09:13 AM
Bob did they say exactly how your unusual?

rivergirl
04-10-2016, 09:33 AM
Prosser from Wales has just let me know his latest SNP results.
He is positive for Z17967, BY596 and BY595.
Negative for FGC32861 found in Brazile/Brassil
Negative for FGC35783 found in Whelan and MacMaster. (He tested for this SNP at ySEQ.)
Prosser does match the Whelan/Brazile/MacMaster/McShea/Markham etc. guys in that we all have the 413a=16 mutation.

Little bit
04-10-2016, 12:44 PM
Thanks for the update rivergirl.

I notice that another snp is available to test and I've tried to order it, but when I do, it says no snp's are found. Any thoughts or ideas about the snp and why FTDNA says it available, but it's not?
8720

8722

brraumstr
04-10-2016, 11:50 PM
Y18435 is what the Brewer/Smith group matches. I have not tested for it, but very confident of a match to this SNP for myself.

I am not 413a=16, if that helps save you any money ordering this SNP test.

I just checked, and the test is not available for me either. It says test available, but there is no link to add it.

Little bit
04-13-2016, 08:57 PM
@brraumstr:

What do you mean by
I am not 413a=16 My grandfather shows 23-23 for DYS13, so I assume he is 413a=23? Does that mean he cannot be Y18435? Thank you in advance!

rivergirl
04-14-2016, 09:58 AM
Little bit,

So far all the men who are 413a=16 have been BY595+, eg Brazile/Brassill, Whelan/Fallin, MacMaster and Prosser. (Maybe BY595 has about the same coverage as the old L144/L195 which seemed to be only in men with DYS413 16-23 etc..)

I'm pretty sure Brewer is YF03733 on yFull tree, so he isnt Z17967+ either.

Hogshead is ZZ49 in The Big Tree, which is also above Z17967.
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=19
Do you have matches with any of these guys?

I can see Y18435 on the FTDNA Haplotree for one of my members, but it does not have an ADD next to it. Not sure what they are doing.

Prosser tested at YSEQ for his FGC35783 SNP

brraumstr
04-14-2016, 11:50 AM
Thats right Little bit, I am 413a/b=23 also, so I suppose y18435 cannot be ruled out for you that way.

I would expect that you would have some Brewer Smith matches if you were y18435+, but its so new its hard to know.

Little bit
04-14-2016, 11:54 AM
@rivergirl:

No Brewers, Smiths, Brazile/Brassill, Whelan/Fallin, MacMaster's, or Prosser's. These are my grandfather's matches at 67 markers:

Allen
Brown (2)
Jones (2)
Lewis (4)
Owen
Powell
Scott
Rowberry

I believe my grandfather's 1751 is a Welsh version since I know his derived from Cardigan Wales and the bulk of his matches have pretty typical Welsh surnames. I verified he is negative for Z17967 so BY595 must be negative, too. I'm just unsure about the wisdom of testing Y18435 which isn't available even though FTDNA says it is. Only 2 of my grandfather's matches are snp tested, only to L21. I sent out an email to all of them when I confirmed he was 1751 but only got one response and she said she managed the account and already confirmed him to L21. I tried to explain that L21 was pretty basic haplogroup but that went nowhere.

rivergirl
04-15-2016, 02:44 AM
Alex Williamson has updated his "Big Tree" to reflect 2 new subclades under DF13. ZZ10 and Z39589.
http://www.ytree.net/

CTS1751 has come under the Z39589.
Included in this branch are;
DF41
DF49 (inc M222)
L1335
Z251
S1026
S1051
Z16500
CTS1751
FGC13742
Y14240
A4556
BY575
FGC13780
S16264
L371
15049032-A-G

rivergirl
08-21-2016, 09:46 AM
Deleted

rivergirl
08-21-2016, 09:59 AM
@rivergirl:

No Brewers, Smiths, Brazile/Brassill, Whelan/Fallin, MacMaster's, or Prosser's. These are my grandfather's matches at 67 markers:

Allen
Brown (2)
Jones (2)
Lewis (4)
Owen
Powell
Scott
Rowberry

I believe my grandfather's 1751 is a Welsh version since I know his derived from Cardigan Wales and the bulk of his matches have pretty typical Welsh surnames. I verified he is negative for Z17967 so BY595 must be negative, too. I'm just unsure about the wisdom of testing Y18435 which isn't available even though FTDNA says it is. Only 2 of my grandfather's matches are snp tested, only to L21. I sent out an email to all of them when I confirmed he was 1751 but only got one response and she said she managed the account and already confirmed him to L21. I tried to explain that L21 was pretty basic haplogroup but that went nowhere.


Little bit, I noticed a CTS1751 man in the L21 project, name Lloyd from Wales. Does he show up in your results?
Also, found a CTS1751 Thomas from Wales (possibly Cardigan), in the Wales Cymru yDNA project. I haven't had a good look to see how close you all are.

It's interesting that The Welsh Patronymics project haven't put you and Davis together in a CTS1751 group. If you can get the others to join you could all be in the same group.
I haven't had a good look to see how close or not you all are to each other. Just glad to see more Welsh CTS1751.

Edit; yeah it does look like a good cluster for the 4 of you.

rivergirl
10-27-2016, 02:07 AM
FTDNA have released a new L21 SNP pack;

R1b L21 version 2 SNP Pack

It includes CTS1751 and 9 SNPs below CTS1751, which cover the 9 branches known from Big Y testing.
At the moment it is $99.00

If your interested in seeing which branch you match with, but do not want to test for the Big Y, this is a good SNP pack.

It will not discover new branches, that is what the Big Y and Full Genome test for.

rivergirl
11-06-2016, 04:14 AM
We have a new CTS1751 man, 503185 Gadow, from Pomerania.
His R-L21 SNP Pack results are negative for Z17967, BY3227, BY596, BY595, and FGC32861.
ZZ49 and BY3927 were not tested for.
He must have just missed out on the newer version of the SNP pack.

rivergirl
11-16-2016, 02:53 AM
We have 2 men just ordered Big Y tests, Whalen and Gadow. looking forward to seeing results.

rivergirl
12-02-2016, 01:36 PM
I have started a R-CTS1751 Project at FTDNA;
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-cts1751/about

R-CTS1751+ and subclades is a Y-DNA project open to anyone who has tested CTS1751+ or one of it is downstream subclades or has a 67 or 111 STRs match with someone who has tested CTS1751+ or one of its subclades are welcome to join, eg, BY3923, BY3927, Z17967, BY596, BY595, FGC35783, FGC32861, BY11097, S22219, Y18435, BY3227.

marosjor
12-03-2016, 08:40 PM
I will let the relevant members of the Ireland yDNA Project know about your new CTS1751 and Subclades Project.

Margaret Jordan

marosjor
12-04-2016, 11:13 AM
I have two men who are showing "presumed negative" for CTS1751 but some time ago, they tested positive for L144. They are in the CTS1751 subgroup in the Ireland yDNA Project. Are they eligible for the CTS1751 Project? I know L144 is problematic but can I assume thiese men are CTS1751+ and suggest they join the CTS1751 Project?

Also, I see that there is a BY595 Project. Some of the men who are CTS1751 are also BY595 which is downstream of CTS1751. Do you want me to let these men know about the CTS1751 Project too?

Thanks,
Margaret

rivergirl
12-05-2016, 05:31 AM
Thanks Margaret, I just had a quick look and all the L144 and L195 guys are CTS1751 and very likely BY595.

Its really only those 4 you would need to message, as the others are already in the CTS1751 project, or know about it.
I have been forwarding any BY595 men into the BY595 project, if you mention both projects they can make their mind up.

Thanks so much for taking the trouble Margaret.

rivergirl
01-07-2017, 06:05 AM
Thats right Little bit, I am 413a/b=23 also, so I suppose y18435 cannot be ruled out for you that way.

I would expect that you would have some Brewer Smith matches if you were y18435+, but its so new its hard to know.

It looks like Littlebits grandfather might be in BY3927.
They match with Thomas 228921 who is BY3927. Also match well with Lloyds, Lewis etc...

BY3927 is starting to grow.
We have 2 more Hortons tested for Big Y, looking forward to seeing more downstream SNPs for them from Alex Williamson and YFul.l
Awaiting a SNP reslts expected to be BY3927 for Yates, who matches an Elliott who is BY3927.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-CTS1751?iframe=yresults

(Unfortuantely not all members have their settings set to Public, so they wont show up if your not a member.0

rivergirl
04-09-2017, 03:21 AM
Sorry, I'm not too blog literate, but am seeking assistance in learning more about my dad's Big Y results. He was R1b1a2a1a1b4 and is now R-CTS1751. I've been told he may be of Irish origins. His only surname Y-37 match GD-1 is also Case. Both men are from 18th century Pennsylvania and possibly Maryland roots. We would love to tie to the land of origin. Dad's name was George Battle Case, his approx 5th cousin match is George William Case. Any way to collaborate with you all who are more on the cutting edge?? So I see my Dad, GBC is shown in your table his kit N82444. Oral family hx on both sides is land of origin is Ireland and Protestant. Maybe meaning they migrated from England/Scotland or Wales?
Best regards,
Marcia

We have very good news with Marcia Dad's origins. They have had an exact match @ 37 markers with Mr Kehs and also match on autosomal tests. Mr Kehs has recently tested positive for BY3227 aswell.
His family line goes back from 1700s Bally Berks, PA to Bayern, Germany.

This is our 2nd confirmed German CTS1751 line.:)

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-cts1751/about

rivergirl
05-16-2017, 03:48 AM
YFull have updated their ytree. (version 5.04 16 May 2017)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1751/

We have new branching under BY595;
MacDonald and Prosser are in a new branch FGC32764, estimated formed 1500 ybp, TMRCA 1250 ybp

Whelan and an Unknown are in FGC35787, estimated formed 950 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybp


We also have new Big Y results in for Kelly, who is BY11097.

RGM
06-15-2017, 07:52 PM
Are there any theories on the origins of BY595? It's interesting that it includes the primary cluster of Ó Faoláin, as they are supposed to be descended from the rulers of the Déisi and their subclade (S22219) is roughly 1000 years old. If the Ó Faoláin origin story is true, all of BY595 would potentially be caught up in it because BY595 as a whole is only roughly 1500 years old. This would be especially fascinating considering the Scottish, Welsh, and English descendants.

I happen to have two separate interests in BY595: my great-grandfather's Bergin line is BY595+ and one of the groups in my McFadden surname project (unrelated to me) is BY595+.

rivergirl
06-16-2017, 07:08 AM
Hi RGM,

I've wondered if BY595 may have formed in Scotland/England and the younger S22219 branch formed in Ireland. (I have not seen any DNA links for the Deisi/ O'Faolain to other Irish groups.)
yFull have BY595 as formed ~2600ybp. (95% CL 3400-1900ybp.) The TRMCA with 9 Big Y results is ~1500ybp.

The Brazilles (FGC32861) and Prosser/MacDonald (Y32764 formed ~1500ybp) are on separate branches under BY595 to the O'Faolain/MacMaster branch (FGC35783 formed ~1500ybp >S22219).
I think the MacFadden BY595 haplotype fits in well with the MacDonald, McShea, McInnes, McLean, Dorris, Durie men. It would be interesting to see some Big Y results for these men. My 'guess" is that they may match with MacDonald and Prosser.

BY595 is in a block of 18 SNPs. If we could break that block up, it might tell us more about where BY595 was formed.

RGM
06-16-2017, 06:16 PM
BY595 is in a block of 18 SNPs. If we could break that block up, it might tell us more about where BY595 was formed.

Yes, the size of the block really makes it difficult to guess at the formation and MRCA origins.

I'm hoping to encourage more Big Y testing within my project, but it's a tough sell. We only have two so far, both from one of the M222 groups. Participation has been steadily increasing though.

rivergirl
07-23-2017, 04:05 AM
We have a new branch; CTS1751>Z17966>BY20462
This takes in Nichols and Hogshead, both believed to be from Scotland.

We also have Big Y results for Mr Fasternow, he joins the Kehs/Case family in;
CTS1751>Z17966>Z17969>Z17966>BY3227
The Kehs/Case trace back to Bavaria and Fasternow to northern Germany.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-CTS1751?iframe=yresults

It also appears a new Big Y result has split the Y18435 branch.
FTDNA have placed Y18513 above Y18435.

rivergirl
08-29-2017, 02:47 AM
Great to see CTS1751 men testing for the Big Y with the super cheap sale price. The following are batched to the lab;

B19759 Yates Big Y 773
N162163 Ackiss Big Y 773
326070 Jamieson Big Y 774
687690 Huguet Big Y 774
B3096 Keenan Big Y 774
534577 Taylor Big Y 778
N89514 Wallace Big Y 778
342053 McNamara Big Y 780

rivergirl
09-16-2018, 05:24 AM
Are there any theories on the origins of BY595? It's interesting that it includes the primary cluster of Ó Faoláin, as they are supposed to be descended from the rulers of the Déisi and their subclade (S22219) is roughly 1000 years old. If the Ó Faoláin origin story is true, all of BY595 would potentially be caught up in it because BY595 as a whole is only roughly 1500 years old. This would be especially fascinating considering the Scottish, Welsh, and English descendants.

I happen to have two separate interests in BY595: my great-grandfather's Bergin line is BY595+ and one of the groups in my McFadden surname project (unrelated to me) is BY595+.

We have had a bit of a split in the BY595 group. Delaney is positve for BY595 and negative for all branches below. BY595 has 12 SNPs level with it.
FTDNA have just placed a new branch BY601/BY604/BY610 below BY595. Maley is BY595>BY601+ and negative for all known branches below.

Our Y32764 branch is growing. We have a sub branch of BY75565 with McKinney/MacInnish and McKinnon.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-CTS1751?iframe=yresults

rivergirl
09-16-2018, 05:31 AM
We are starting to get more continental men in the CTS1751 group.

YFull has a BY3923/3927 man with a Portuguese flag.
Our Z17969 group have men tracing to Germany, France and a possible French Canadian.

agosswpg
10-14-2018, 06:46 PM
I've recently received my Big-Y results (IN22194 on FTDNA and on the big tree at Y-Tree) and seem to be part of a newly identified branch off of CTS1751. FTNDA has placed my terminal subclade as L21>DF13>CTS1751>BY71093. They've placed me there alongside my one big Y match, who is a Larkin, MDKA from Ireland. I match with a couple of other Larkins at lower levels of testing. Still, we don't match on 45 variants, and 42 of them are unnamed? Still learning on the fly with this stuff, but I presume we both branched off from CTS1751 pretty early and our lines diverged not far after that. I have one surname match at 67 markers (out of my two matches total at that level), who matches both myself and my Larkin Big Y match. There are a couple of unusual STR values that the three of us share, including DYS19=13 and DYS459a=7. I'm descended from the Gass family from Annandale Scotland, but reputedly from the area of Findo Gask in Perthshire prior to that (1400s?). Waiting on BAM analysis at Y-Full, not sure how long that takes, I submitted my data a little over a week ago.

rivergirl
05-13-2020, 01:00 AM
agosswpg, we have Big Y results for a new member in your branch, from the Ukraine. He has just submitted his results to YFull.

FTDNA have the branch as follows.
CTS1751>BY54624>BY71093>BY182882