PDA

View Full Version : Pakistani Punjabi-Need help with results



Pages : [1] 2

Raza94
01-28-2018, 06:10 AM
Hey guys I just ran my raw DNA through GenePlaza and wanted some insight on the results.

Ancient Farmers-34.3%
-West European Farmers 0%
-Levant 3.4%
-Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG 18%
-East European Farmers 12.9%

Steppe Cultures-32.4%
-Scythain 8.4%
-Andronovo-Srubnaya 10.9%
Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka 13.1%

South East Eurasian-27.9%

African-2.4

Western European and Scandinavian Hunter and Gatherer-1.8%

Eastern Non Africans-1.1%

We have been told our whole lives that we are Syed, but I dont believe this to be true. I can trace my paternal side back to Jhang,Punjab in Pakistan. Sorry I am new to this and any help would be appreciated , Thank you.

Also I apologize for no picture, it wont let me add one!

Heir of Gandhara
01-28-2018, 07:41 AM
Hey guys I just ran my raw DNA through GenePlaza and wanted some insight on the results.

Ancient Farmers-34.3%
-West European Farmers 0%
-Levant 3.4%
-Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG 18%
-East European Farmers 12.9%

Steppe Cultures-32.4%
-Scythain 8.4%
-Andronovo-Srubnaya 10.9%
Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Poltavka 13.1%

South East Eurasian-27.9%

African-2.4

Western European and Scandinavian Hunter and Gatherer-1.8%

Eastern Non Africans-1.1%

We have been told our whole lives that we are Syed, but I dont believe this to be true. I can trace my paternal side back to Jhang,Punjab in Pakistan. Sorry I am new to this and any help would be appreciated , Thank you.

Also I apologize for no picture, it wont let me add one!

Hello,

Can you post your Harappa GEDmatch results too? What's your mtDNA?

I myself am a Rajput from the Salt Range and many of my top matches on Gedmatch and 23&me are Syeds.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2018, 11:11 AM
Welcome to the forum bhra! Seems like R1a1a is strong in us Punjabis. Can you elaborate a little bit more about your family’s background? Tribes etc?

Raza94
01-28-2018, 03:18 PM
Thank you veerey! And yes from the little research I have done it seems the R1a1 is strong in us. My paternal side is Syed from Jhang,Punjab and more specifically in a pind called Pir kot Sadhana. We claim to be Gilani Syed. The furthest we can go back according to our family tree is about 200 years. My guess is that we were converted a while back, and someone in our family had realized the benefits of being Syed.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2018, 03:28 PM
Thank you veerey! And yes from the little research I have done it seems the R1a1 is strong in us. My paternal side is Syed from Jhang,Punjab and more specifically in a pind called Pir kot Sadhana. We claim to be Gilani Syed. The furthest we can go back according to our family tree is about 200 years. My guess is that we were converted a while back, and someone in our family had realized the benefits of being Syed.

What about your mother side? Can you post your Harappa results as well? Here are my gene plaza results for comparison. I'm Punjabi Sikh Tarkhan, also known as ramgarhias.

steppe cultures - 38.1%
karasuk-e scythian (2000-3000 years) - 20.2%
andronovo-srubnaya (3000-4000 years) - 8.4%
yamnaya-afanasievo-poltavka (4000-5000 years) - 9.5%

ancient farmers - 35.0%
west european farmers (4000-5000 years) - 0.0%
levant (4000-8000 years) - 5.1%
neolithic-chalcolithic iran-chg (5000-12000 years) - 15.6%
east european farmers (5000-8000 years) - 14.3%

southeast Eurasian - 21.3%

eastern non africans (modern) - 3.5%

western european & scandinavian hunter gatherers (4000-5000 years) - 1.0%

african - 1.0%
east african (modern) - 0.5%
west african (modern) - 0.5%

Raza94
01-28-2018, 04:33 PM
Hey guys here are my GEDMatch results:

South Indian-36.9
Baloch-36.8
Caucasian-7.93
NE-Euro-7.34
SE Asian-0.46
Siberian-2.22
American-0.62
Beringian-0.27
Mediterranean-3.56
SW-Asian-3.85

I have not done my mtDNA as of yet.

Heir of Ghandhara: do you think some Rajputs would have changed their name to Syed to have a higher status?

Really appreciate the help guys

Edit: My mother’s side is from Sialkot,Punjab but I believe their ancestry might go back to Kapurthala on the Indian side of Punjab

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2018, 04:53 PM
Hey guys here are my GEDMatch results:

South Indian-36.9
Baloch-36.8
Caucasian-7.93
NE-Euro-7.34
SE Asian-0.46
Siberian-2.22
American-0.62
Beringian-0.27
Mediterranean-3.56
SW-Asian-3.85

I have not done my mtDNA as of yet.

Heir of Ghandhara: do you think some Rajputs would have changed their name to Syed to have a higher status?

Really appreciate the help guys

Edit: My mother’s side is from Sialkot,Punjab but I believe their ancestry might go back to Kapurthala on the Indian side of Punjab

Your Ydna is definitely not from the halogroups that are assigned with Syed lineage but you definitely have Arab ancestry. The mediterranean and SW asian is too high for general NW South Asian. My results for comparison:

1 Baloch 36.48
2 S-Indian 35.15
3 NE-Euro 12.76
4 Caucasian 10.86
5 Siberian 1.7
6 SW-Asian 0.81
7 Beringian 0.75
8 American 0.72
9 NE-Asian 0.6
10 Papuan 0.16

Raza94
01-28-2018, 05:44 PM
I was reading up on the Gill tribe of Jatts and read that they may have possibly come from a province in Iran called Gilan. Not sure how true this is but do you think that could attribute to the bit of Arab ancestry?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-28-2018, 06:09 PM
I was reading up on the Gill tribe of Jatts and read that they may have possibly come from a province in Iran called Gilan. Not sure how true this is but do you think that could attribute to the bit of Arab ancestry?

No, those claims are generally not true or very stretched. If it was ancient it wouldn't be this high. You have legit Arab ancestor somewhere back, but mostly likely maternal ancestor. Can you run your data on ANE K7 and Eurogenes K36?

Heir of Gandhara
01-28-2018, 11:33 PM
Thanks for posting your results Raza! Interesting results.




Heir of Ghandhara: do you think some Rajputs would have changed their name to Syed to have a higher status?

To answer this question, I will first have to agree that Rajputs occupy a lower status than the Syeds. Lol.

But seriously, Syeds do occupy a very high status all across Pakistan. But in many Pakistani districts, it's the Rajputs who occupy the highest hereditary social status. The only social perk that Syeds universally enjoy, in my opinion, is that their marriage proposals are accepted by almost everyone. As such I don't see any reason for a true Rajput to ever risk changing his family background for negligible social status gains. Even where Rajputs have become Pirs they still remained very proud Rajputs - like the Janjuas of Bari Imam for example.

I personally think that most modern Syeds/Shahs from Punjab are Brahmin converts.

Raza94
01-28-2018, 11:46 PM
Sorry my mistake I meant to say would they have done it to retain their high status at the time. And yes I have also heard that Rajputs do enjoy quite a bit of perks in Pakistan.

I have also heard the Brahmin to Syed theory, which honestly to me does make sense but are Brahmins considered a race such or just a caste? Like do most Brahmins have some matching DNA? Like for example most Punjabi Jatts might have the same DNA or Punjabi Rajputs.

Money D luffy: I will run my results on those calculators ASAP.

Again guys please forgive my ignorance when it comes to this stuff. I have just recently started to get into this.

Also a new site called DNALand. I ran the results from there and got:
South Asian 47%:
-31 Dravidian
-16% Gujarati

Central Asian 42%:
-Indus Valley 32%
-Indo-Iranian 9.1%
-Kalash 1.1%

Northwest European:
-5.4%

Southwestern European:
-3.1%

Ambiguous:
-1.8%

Heir of Gandhara
01-29-2018, 12:25 AM
You don't need to apologize for anything bro. And like you, I am also new to these forums and hence my knowledge is also very limited.

About Brahmins, there are quite a few on this forum who are very knowledgeable and can answer your questions better than I can. But from what I have seen, as you go deeper into the Subcontinent, Brahmins increasingly start showing measurable differences vis-a-vis their neighbors. They also carry the Indo-Aryan R1a marker frequently.

Raza94
01-29-2018, 07:30 AM
Will definitely look into the Brahmin stuff more!

I also did the single population sharing on GED Match, and this is what I got:

# Population (source) Distance
1 up-muslim (harappa) 5.05
2 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 6.04
3 punjabi (harappa) 6.28
4 up-brahmin (harappa) 6.58
5 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 6.6
6 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.6
7 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 7.09
8 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.37
9 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 7.73
10 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 7.99
11 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.08
12 bihari-muslim (harappa) 8.13
13 nepalese-a (xing) 8.25
14 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 8.25
15 gujarati-b (hapmap) 8.56
16 vaish (reich) 8.92
17 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 9.13
18 meghawal (reich) 9.17
19 punjabi-arain (xing) 9.38
20 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 9.51

Not exactly sure what these mean though to be totally honest

On the ANE K7 these are my results:
Population
ANE 28.10
ASE 16.40
WHG-UHG 2.97
East_Eurasian 5.26
West_African -
East_African 3.60
ENF 43.65

K36:
Population
Amerindian 0.22
Arabian 1.25
Armenian -
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 0.59
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 1.45
Eastern_Euro 2.20
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 3.05
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.52
North_Caucasian 4.39
North_Sea 3.14
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian 0.90
South_Asian 41.11
South_Central_Asian 39.14
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2018, 02:09 PM
Will definitely look into the Brahmin stuff more!

I also did the single population sharing on GED Match, and this is what I got:

# Population (source) Distance
1 up-muslim (harappa) 5.05
2 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 6.04
3 punjabi (harappa) 6.28
4 up-brahmin (harappa) 6.58
5 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 6.6
6 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.6
7 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 7.09
8 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.37
9 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 7.73
10 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 7.99
11 brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) 8.08
12 bihari-muslim (harappa) 8.13
13 nepalese-a (xing) 8.25
14 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 8.25
15 gujarati-b (hapmap) 8.56
16 vaish (reich) 8.92
17 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 9.13
18 meghawal (reich) 9.17
19 punjabi-arain (xing) 9.38
20 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 9.51

Not exactly sure what these mean though to be totally honest

On the ANE K7 these are my results:
Population
ANE 28.10
ASE 16.40
WHG-UHG 2.97
East_Eurasian 5.26
West_African -
East_African 3.60
ENF 43.65

K36:
Population
Amerindian 0.22
Arabian 1.25
Armenian -
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 0.59
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 1.45
Eastern_Euro 2.20
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 3.05
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.52
North_Caucasian 4.39
North_Sea 3.14
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian 0.90
South_Asian 41.11
South_Central_Asian 39.14
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

As I suspected, your ENF is high in ANE K7 for a regular NW South asian, with elevated East african as well. Even in K36 you score Arab + near east. Here is my K7 and K36 for comparison, I don't have any arab ancestry:

ANE 30.33
ASE 16.98
WHG-UHG 7.01
East_Eurasian 4.35
West_African -
East_African 2.16
ENF 39.16

____________________________________________

Amerindian 0.84
Arabian -
Armenian 1.05
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 2.89
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 4.74
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.13
North_Caucasian 6.88
North_Sea 1.55
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian 39.69
South_Central_Asian 37.27
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.02
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.93
West_Med -

Raza94
01-29-2018, 04:39 PM
Okay thanks for that insight! Now do you still think it is from the maternal side? And would the only way to figure that out be through mtDNA test?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2018, 04:59 PM
Okay thanks for that insight! Now do you still think it is from the maternal side? And would the only way to figure that out be through mtDNA test?

The reason why I'm guessing it is from maternal side is because of your paternal halogroup. It can also come via a female ancestor from your paternal side as well. Because if it was from male ancestor in paternal side, your halogroup would be of Arab origins as well, like in case of a South Indian muslim we have on the forum. He scores minor Arab component but his Ydna is strictly Arab in origin, and that's what they claim as well.

Raza94
01-29-2018, 05:06 PM
Okay that makes sense. Thanks for the help!

Now to figure out if it was the Brahmin thing or not, whats the best way to go about it? Go through these forums?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2018, 05:15 PM
Okay that makes sense. Thanks for the help!

Now to figure out if it was the Brahmin thing or not, whats the best way to go about it? Go through these forums?

I agree with Heir of gandhara's theory that Shahs and Syeds in Punjab were Brahman converts. As it allowed them to keep their status in the society in the new religion. Also R1a1a is the most common halogroup for Brahmans as well.

parasar
01-29-2018, 06:09 PM
Okay thanks for that insight! Now do you still think it is from the maternal side? And would the only way to figure that out be through mtDNA test?

Who did you test with for L657?

Even if your paternal line is not Syed, the fact that your family considered themselves Syed would potentially have resulted in marital relationships with other Syeds some of whom may have been of genuine Arab descent - this would lead to autosomal exchange. We know for certain that Arabs families had settled in Sindh, Multan, Afghanistan, and many other locations.

Also to consider is that one the premier Quraish families of Mecca (and also from Medina) are R1a1 L657+. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12680-DNA-result-Quraish-tribe-quot-Makkah-quot-Saud-Arabia&p=313628&viewfull=1#post313628

Another example of how some Syeds came to be Syeds.
The Syed mantle became an aspired to designation during the period of Syed supremacy in Delhi. The Barah (12)/Barha Syeds were likely converts from the Patiala area. It appears that their claim to an Ali descent was not accepted by some others, and their timeline of migration from Baghdad is very suspect, but as a brave and influential clan they came to wield power in Delhi.
"But more malicious were the remarks of the Amirs regarding his claim to be a Sayyid of pure blood. Jahangir (Tuzuk, p. 366) also says that people doubt the claim of the Barha family to be Sayyids. Once Mahmud was asked how many generations backwards the Sayyids of Barha traced their descent." https://books.google.com/books?id=_Isx7NqZZHEC&pg=PA390

Sapporo
01-29-2018, 08:16 PM
I was reading up on the Gill tribe of Jatts and read that they may have possibly come from a province in Iran called Gilan. Not sure how true this is but do you think that could attribute to the bit of Arab ancestry?

I'm part Gill. There is nothing regarding the admixture profiles of Gills I've seen or their Y-DNA to suggest they are specifically from Gilan, Iran. Now, it is possible that Gill Jatts have Iran N related ancestors who were from somewhere in modern day Iran but that's the case for most Jatts and most NW South Asians and even other South Asians.

As for your admixture, I'm not sure if you have Arab admixture. Your elevated Mediterranean and SW Asian scores might just be an artifact of you scoring lower Caucasus than other Muslim Punjabis or NW South Asians at 8%. Many Punjabis also score 2-3% of either Mediterranean or SW Asian (even non Muslim ones) but most Punjabis score upwards of 10%+ Caucasus with the exception of those scoring extra high Baloch or NE Euro. However, I am not completely throwing out the possibility you may have an Arab ancestor. Just skeptical.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2018, 08:27 PM
I'm part Gill. There is nothing regarding the admixture profiles of Gills I've seen or their Y-DNA to suggest they are specifically from Gilan, Iran. Now, it is possible that Gill Jatts have Iran N related ancestors who were from somewhere in modern day Iran but that's the case for most Jatts and most NW South Asians and even other South Asians.

As for your admixture, I'm not sure if you have Arab admixture. Your elevated Mediterranean and SW Asian scores might just be an artifact if you scoring lower Caucasus than other Muslim Punjabis or NW South Asians at 8%. Many Punjabis also score 2-3% of either Mediterranean or SW Asian (even non Muslim ones) but most Punjabis score upwards of 10%+ Caucasus with the exception of those scoring extra high Baloch or NE Euro. However, I am not completely throwing out the possibility you may have an Arab ancestor. Just skeptical.

It's his ENF on K7 and Near east on K36 which sure are not normal for someone without arab ancestry.

Heir of Gandhara
01-29-2018, 08:40 PM
It's his ENF on K7 and Near east on K36 which sure are not normal for someone without arab ancestry.

My ENF on K7 is 44% so would that mean that I also have some Arab input that I am completely unaware of? How does ENF relate to the Arabs? What are the average ENF scores for NW South Asian?

And that Syed to Brahmin theory isn't my own per se, I just think it the most plausible.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2018, 09:30 PM
My ENF on K7 is 44% so would that mean that I also have some Arab input that I am completely unaware of? How does ENF relate to the Arabs? What are the average ENF scores for NW South Asian?

And that Syed to Brahmin theory isn't my own per se, I just think it the most plausible.

But you dont score as high as SW asian as him on harappa. Plus he scores more East africa. Higher caucasian can turn into ENF, which you do score around 14%, and he doesnt. Can you post your ANE k7 as well?

Raza94
01-29-2018, 09:40 PM
"I'm part Gill. There is nothing regarding the admixture profiles of Gills I've seen or their Y-DNA to suggest they are specifically from Gilan, Iran. Now, it is possible that Gill Jatts have Iran N related ancestors who were from somewhere in modern day Iran but that's the case for most Jatts and most NW South Asians and even other South Asians."

I have been thinking mostly Brahmin up until this point but seeing this admixture and being Jatt, do you think there is a chance that we are Jatt? All I know about the Jatts is that their Y haplogroups are usually L or R. As far as I know that is.

And Parasar: That is a very interesting take on it. Never thought of it that way. And I used Morley Y-DNA data base for the L657

Heir of Gandhara
01-29-2018, 09:47 PM
But you dont score as high as SW asian as him on harappa. Plus he scores more East africa. Higher caucasian can turn into ENF, which you do score around 14%, and he doesnt. Can you post your ANE k7 as well?


My Eurogenes K7:

ANE 27.88
ASE 16.50
WHG-UHG 3.67
East_Eurasian 4.09
West_African -
East_African 3.61
ENF 44.26



And also my K36:

Amerindian 0.82
Arabian -
Armenian 1.38
Basque 0.51
Central_African 0.18
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 1.88
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 1.52
East_Med 4.08
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan 1.64
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 5.94
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic 0.54
Pygmy -
Siberian 0.24
South_Asian 32.33
South_Central_Asian 42.16
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.09
West_African -
West_Caucasian 4.66
West_Med -

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2018, 09:58 PM
My Eurogenes K7:

ANE 27.88
ASE 16.50
WHG-UHG 3.67
East_Eurasian 4.09
West_African -
East_African 3.61
ENF 44.26



And also my K36:

Amerindian 0.82
Arabian -
Armenian 1.38
Basque 0.51
Central_African 0.18
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 1.88
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 1.52
East_Med 4.08
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan 1.64
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 5.94
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic 0.54
Pygmy -
Siberian 0.24
South_Asian 32.33
South_Central_Asian 42.16
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.09
West_African -
West_Caucasian 4.66
West_Med -

You and I both did not score Near east and Arabian while he scored both, actually good amount near east. To me that is arab related ancestry. I can be wrong, but that's just my observation.

Raza94
01-29-2018, 10:19 PM
The k7 results for Heir of Gandhara are kinda similar. Would that really mean anything though?

MonkeyDLuffy
01-29-2018, 10:47 PM
The k7 results for Heir of Gandhara are kinda similar. Would that really mean anything though?

K7 is a very low K calculator, so it has its drawbacks. Any west asian or farmer kind of ancestry gets assigned to ENF, because it used ancient components rather than modern ones. K36 uses only modern populations hence it is able to break it down by modern populations.

Heir of Gandhara
01-29-2018, 11:06 PM
I will post all my GEDMatch results in another thread that I made to share my results so that you can compare on more calculators. Our K7 results do indeed look similar, but you show Arab and Near East in K36 that I do not.

Can you guys recommend some good GEDmatch calculators for us? Sapporo recommended some in a different thread but I do not remember which one that was.

Sapporo
01-30-2018, 01:04 AM
It's his ENF on K7 and Near east on K36 which sure are not normal for someone without arab ancestry.
I get around 42.6%. Not out of the ordinary. If he got 46%+ or close to 50%, I’d be more inclined to agree. Those are Afghan numbers.




Can you guys recommend some good GEDmatch calculators for us? Sapporo recommended some in a different thread but I do not remember which one that was.

MDLP K23B
MDLP World 22

Dodecad K12B (outdated; similar to Harappa)
Dodecad World 9 (outdated but it’s alright)

Eurogenes K13
Eurogenes V2 K15
Eurogenes K36

puntDNAL K13
puntDNAL K15

Gedrosia Neolithic K13

Lukasz K47 (DIY) - Very interesting calculator imo. Also, he can try Gencove and WeGenes.

khanabadoshi
01-30-2018, 02:14 AM
My ENF on K7 is 44% so would that mean that I also have some Arab input that I am completely unaware of? How does ENF relate to the Arabs? What are the average ENF scores for NW South Asian?

And that Syed to Brahmin theory isn't my own per se, I just think it the most plausible.


But you dont score as high as SW asian as him on harappa. Plus he scores more East africa. Higher caucasian can turn into ENF, which you do score around 14%, and he doesnt. Can you post your ANE k7 as well?


Compared with Murtaza Syed (whom I'm fairly certain has some Arab ancestry); an Afghan Naqawi; a mixed Syrian/South Asian Muslim; a Emirati Hashimi and Rifai' that likely have some SC/S Asian ancestry; regular Rifai' and regular Hashimi results; various Iranians on K36.

https://i.gyazo.com/a88bbb07271b759677e3564db84b204c.png


EDIT: Saw some talk about Gillanis; I have one Jilani result, so it's something for comparison.




Population
Raza94
SAM - [Jilani]


Amerindian
0.22
0


Arabian
1.25
0


Armenian
0
0


Basque
0
0


Central_African
0
0.26


Central_Euro
0
0


East_African
0
0


East_Asian
0
0


East_Balkan
0.59
0


East_Central_Asian
0
0.65


East_Central_Euro
0
1.72


East_Med
1.45
0


Eastern_Euro
2.2
2.31


Fennoscandian
0
0


French
0
0


Iberian
0
0


Indo-Chinese
0
0


Italian
0
0


Malayan
0
0


Near_Eastern
3.05
0


North_African
0
0


North_Atlantic
2.52
0


North_Caucasian
4.39
11.63


North_Sea
3.14
0.89


Northeast_African
0
0


Oceanian
0
0


Omotic
0
0


Pygmy
0
0


Siberian
0.9
0


South_Asian
41.11
35.66


South_Central_Asian
39.14
38.45


South_Chinese
0
0


Volga-Ural
0
3.06


West_African
0
0.13


West_Caucasian
0
5.15


West_Med
0
0

Raza94
01-30-2018, 02:29 AM
Okay thats interesting. I did the K23B calculator on GED Match and these are my results
2109121090

Going to do the other ones Sapporo suggested as well

Raza94
01-30-2018, 02:33 AM
Compared with Murtaza Syed (whom I'm fairly certain has some Arab ancestry); an Afghan Naqawi; a mixed Syrian/South Asian Muslim; a Emirati Hashimi and Rifai' that likely have some SC/S Asian ancestry; regular Rifai' and regular Hashimi results; various Iranians on K36.

https://i.gyazo.com/a88bbb07271b759677e3564db84b204c.png


EDIT: Saw some talk about Gillanis; I have one Jilani result, so it's something for comparison.




Population
Raza94
SAM - [Jilani]


Amerindian
0.22
0


Arabian
1.25
0


Armenian
0
0


Basque
0
0


Central_African
0
0.26


Central_Euro
0
0


East_African
0
0


East_Asian
0
0


East_Balkan
0.59
0


East_Central_Asian
0
0.65


East_Central_Euro
0
1.72


East_Med
1.45
0


Eastern_Euro
2.2
2.31


Fennoscandian
0
0


French
0
0


Iberian
0
0


Indo-Chinese
0
0


Italian
0
0


Malayan
0
0


Near_Eastern
3.05
0


North_African
0
0


North_Atlantic
2.52
0


North_Caucasian
4.39
11.63


North_Sea
3.14
0.89


Northeast_African
0
0


Oceanian
0
0


Omotic
0
0


Pygmy
0
0


Siberian
0.9
0


South_Asian
41.11
35.66


South_Central_Asian
39.14
38.45


South_Chinese
0
0


Volga-Ural
0
3.06


West_African
0
0.13


West_Caucasian
0
5.15


West_Med
0
0





Surprising there is no Arab in the other Jilani result

khanabadoshi
01-30-2018, 02:51 AM
Surprising there is no Arab in the other Jilani result

While you have lower levels of Arabian, East Med, Near Eastern, than the others (besides the Jilani) -- the fact that you have any at all (taking into consideration you have relatively much higher South Asian) -- lends credence to some middle eastern ancestry being real. Though it need not be Arab, all these scores could very well be explained by a distant Iranian ancestor. However, I've only looked at your stuff on one calculator, this is just an initial hunch.

To get a much more reliable picture if you have such ancestry, someone like Kurd should run f3/dstat analysis on your data to see if anything significant shows up.
Admixture gives up clues and paths to look at, but we can't always make conclusions based on it.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 03:03 AM
Can I run those tests on GED Match?

khanabadoshi
01-30-2018, 03:26 AM
Can I run those tests on GED Match?

Most of the one that Sapporo suggested are on gedmatch, except the last one (the
LukaszM, I can do that for you though, PM me). The ones I mentioned are beyond most of our abilities to do, there are few users here with the setup and skills to run the tests though. We'll get you in one of the runs soon enough though.

passion
01-30-2018, 03:35 AM
post your mixed mode population sharing

Raza94
01-30-2018, 03:48 AM
21093



This is from the Harrapa calculator. Should I do a different one?

khanabadoshi
01-30-2018, 03:49 AM
21093



This is from the Harrapa calculator. Should I do a different one?

Try MDLP K16, it has lots of populations in the Oracle.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 03:58 AM
Try MDLP K16, it has lots of populations in the Oracle.

21094

21095

21096

These are with K16

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2018, 05:23 AM
21094

21095

21096

These are with K16

1 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh + Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Gujjar_Punjab @ 2.240370
2 Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Gujjar_Punjab + Vaish_Odisha @ 2.391366
3 Brahmin_India + Brahmin_India + Burusho_Pakistan + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.481408
4 Burusho_Pakistan + GujaratiA_Gujarat + Jatt_Haryana + Kashmiri_Pandit_Kashmir @ 2.502064
5 Brahmin_India + Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Sindhi_Sindh @ 2.567860
6 Brahmin_India + Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Meena_Rajasthan @ 2.575114
7 Brahmin_India + Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Muslim + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.605282
8 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh + Burusho_Pakistan + Kashmiri_Pandit_Kashmir + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.639264
9 Brahmin_India + Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh + Burusho_Pakistan + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.656476
10 Brahmin_India + Burusho_Pakistan + Burusho_Pakistan + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.660562
11 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh + Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Muslim + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.663893
12 Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Jatt_Muslim + Meena_Rajasthan @ 2.666680
13 Burusho_Pakistan + Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Meena_Rajasthan @ 2.682803
14 Brahmin_India + Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Gujjar_Punjab @ 2.683809
15 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh + Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.688191
16 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh + Burusho_Pakistan + Burusho_Pakistan + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.702323
17 Brahmin_India + Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh + Jatt_Haryana + Gujjar_Punjab @ 2.702963
18 Burusho_Pakistan + Jatt_Haryana + Pathan_Punjab + Srivastava_India @ 2.709545
19 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh + Burusho_Pakistan + Pathan_Punjab + Pathan_Punjab @ 2.719443
20 Brahmin_India + Burusho_Pakistan + Burusho_Pakistan + Gujjar_Punjab @ 2.732912


You are getting Iranian populations in the oracles, while I don't. Further proves my point about minor west asian ancestry in you.

passion
01-30-2018, 05:46 AM
you definitely have some MENA ancestry , most of Syed ancestry in Pakistan is from iran it looks like.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2018, 06:03 AM
you definitely have some MENA ancestry , most of Syed ancestry in Pakistan is from iran it looks like.

I still don't trust Mohajir syeds since every other mohajir I meet from karachi is syed.

passion
01-30-2018, 06:15 AM
I still don't trust Mohajir syeds since every other mohajir I meet from karachi is syed.

lol yeah ,

on topic: there is also some Syrian ancestry in the region around Multan.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 06:30 AM
you definitely have some MENA ancestry , most of Syed ancestry in Pakistan is from iran it looks like.

Would that make the MENA ancestry legit Syed?

And yes there are a lot of Muhajirs from Karachi who claim Syed ancestry

bmoney
01-30-2018, 07:24 AM
21094

21095

21096

These are with K16

Yeah Iranian in the oracles is interesting

khanabadoshi
01-30-2018, 10:33 AM
Would that make the MENA ancestry legit Syed?

And yes there are a lot of Muhajirs from Karachi who claim Syed ancestry

It doesn't mean legit Syed, but at the very least, it means we can't explain your scores with wholly indigenous populations. In order for you to have the scores that you do, at least one ancestor from either your mother's or father's side had to be from Iran, the Levant, or Arabian peninsula. More likely Iran than the others. Now if your parent's are tested too, maybe we can see who has more of the ancestry and then you can tell which side it's coming from.

pegasus
01-30-2018, 10:58 AM
You look like a combination of some upper caste and some PJL Chamar related group which later mixed with some Plateau Iranian, because compared to other Punjabi populations your Steppe and Caucasus is on the lower side yet you score noticeable combination of SW Asian + Med which infers recent Near Eastern ancestry , specifically Iran_Chl ancestry.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 04:22 PM
You look like a combination of some upper caste and some PJL Chamar related group which later mixed with some Plateau Iranian, because compared to other Punjabi populations your Steppe and Caucasus is on the lower side yet you score noticeable combination of SW Asian + Med which infers recent Near Eastern ancestry , specifically Iran_Chl ancestry.


It doesn't mean legit Syed, but at the very least, it means we can't explain your scores with wholly indigenous populations. In order for you to have the scores that you do, at least one ancestor from either your mother's or father's side had to be from Iran, the Levant, or Arabian peninsula. More likely Iran than the others. Now if your parent's are tested too, maybe we can see who has more of the ancestry and then you can tell which side it's coming from.


Very helpful thank you both!
I will definitely try to get my parents to do these tests as well.

And I know the upper caste would include Brahmin but what other castes would it include? If you dont mind me asking

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2018, 04:27 PM
Very helpful thank you both!
I will definitely try to get my parents to do these tests as well.

And I know the upper caste would include Brahmin but what other castes would it include? If you dont mind me asking

Since youíre punjabi, almost all biradaris except chamars/churahs/musselis score similar or same. So it can be either jatt or gujjar or rajput or arain or khatri or brahmin or Tarkhan etc.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 04:30 PM
Since you’re punjabi, almost all biradaris except chamars/churahs/musselis score similar or same. So it can be either jatt or gujjar or rajput or arain or khatri or brahmin or Tarkhan etc.

So is there a specific test or calculator to find out which of these it would be? Or is it better to just compare with other Jatts,Rajputs,Gujjars,Brahmin etc.?

pegasus
01-30-2018, 05:15 PM
Very helpful thank you both!
I will definitely try to get my parents to do these tests as well.

And I know the upper caste would include Brahmin but what other castes would it include? If you dont mind me asking

They are many Punjabi groups which fall in that category but the standouts seem to Khatris, Arains, Aroras, Kambojs, Jats, Brahmins, in particular the Khatris because that groups seems to emanate out of the Potohar and these areas of Western Punjab along with Arains. Btw do the Arains dominate Western Punjab in the same way Jat Sikhs do in Eastern Punjab?

I saw a depressing documentary about migrant workers from Pakistan from Al Jazeera, but the dialect spoken sounds markedly different from the Punjabi I have heard in Toronto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLgLDOVJdQ&t=898s

Raza94
01-30-2018, 06:45 PM
They are many Punjabi groups which fall in that category but the standouts seem to Khatris, Arains, Aroras, Kambojs, Jats, Brahmins, in particular the Khatris because that groups seems to emanate out of the Potohar and these areas of Western Punjab along with Arains. Btw do the Arains dominate Western Punjab in the same way Jat Sikhs do in Eastern Punjab?

I saw a depressing documentary about migrant workers from Pakistan from Al Jazeera, but the dialect spoken sounds markedly different from the Punjabi I have heard in Toronto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLgLDOVJdQ&t=898s

From what I know West Punjab is made up of mostly Arains, Jatts and Rajputs. In fact the district where my father is from was found by Sial Jatts if I am not mistaken. Don't think it is dominated by one specific group, although I will say the Rajputs do enjoy a lot of perks in West Punjab as compared to the others I've seen.

As for the language spoken in that video, the village he is from is in Chinot district, which actually use to be a part of Jhang district, where my fathers side is from. Now my father can speak the normal or standard Punjabi you would hear in say Lahore and Amritsar, but I believe the guy in the video is speaking either Saraiki dialect or Jhangvi dialect. Could be wrong but that is what it seems like to me

khanabadoshi
01-30-2018, 07:11 PM
They are many Punjabi groups which fall in that category but the standouts seem to Khatris, Arains, Aroras, Kambojs, Jats, Brahmins, in particular the Khatris because that groups seems to emanate out of the Potohar and these areas of Western Punjab along with Arains. Btw do the Arains dominate Western Punjab in the same way Jat Sikhs do in Eastern Punjab?

I saw a depressing documentary about migrant workers from Pakistan from Al Jazeera, but the dialect spoken sounds markedly different from the Punjabi I have heard in Toronto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwLgLDOVJdQ&t=898s

He is speaking Saraiki (at least to me, I would call it a northern dialect of Saraiki), they keep switching to Urdu or mixing with it, likely for the interviewer. It is Punjabi-shifted and Raza suggests Jhangvi, but Jhangvi is quite a bit more Punjabi-shifted and has a lot of tonality. I think he must be a bit further from proper Jhangvi.

EDIT: I just listened to some more, he seems to be speaking pretty standard Saraiki. Where is his village? Jhangvi sounds very different, at least to my ear. They are speaking what sounds to me Thalochi dialect of Saraiki. Like from Bhakkar, Layyah region. Chiniot is on the other side of Chenab and there is Thal desert between ... hence the name Thalochi, dialect spoken by those who live in and around Thal.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 07:26 PM
Yea he’s right. I would definitely learn towards Saraiki,which I believe after Majha dialect is the most spoken Punjabi dialect in West Punjab

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2018, 07:33 PM
The Saraiki seems strikingly similar to Haryanavi spoken in Ganganagar region of West Haryana. It is like a blend of Punjabi and haryanvi leaning toward haryanvi. Not to mention the people look very similar to rural Haryanvis as well. Also sounds very similar to Lubanki spoken by Lubanas in Tanda area of Punjab, who migrated from Multan region.

pegasus
01-30-2018, 09:03 PM
The Saraiki seems strikingly similar to Haryanavi spoken in Ganganagar region of West Haryana. It is like a blend of Punjabi and haryanvi leaning toward haryanvi. Not to mention the people look very similar to rural Haryanvis as well. Also sounds very similar to Lubanki spoken by Lubanas in Tanda area of Punjab, who migrated from Multan region.

Really , I thought they looked like other Punjabi but with a kind of CM vibe, some of them reminded me of Baloch for some reason. The Haryanvi people I met were both "Jaats" and they looked pretty Pan South Asian to me, from the pics I have seen to look like other Northern Indians and Pan SAs. My friend showed me some really tacky videos of crowds I was just aghast , she then told me they make crappy versions of old Punjabi tunes.

Linguistically Seraiki is a transitional language between Punjabi and Sindhi.
Is Haryanvi related to Punjabi? As far as I know Punjabi and Sindhi are from the same Prakrit group.

pegasus
01-30-2018, 09:07 PM
He is speaking Saraiki (at least to me, I would call it a northern dialect of Saraiki), they keep switching to Urdu or mixing with it, likely for the interviewer. It is Punjabi-shifted and Raza suggests Jhangvi, but Jhangvi is quite a bit more Punjabi-shifted and has a lot of tonality. I think he must be a bit further from proper Jhangvi.

EDIT: I just listened to some more, he seems to be speaking pretty standard Saraiki. Where is his village? Jhangvi sounds very different, at least to my ear. They are speaking what sounds to me Thalochi dialect of Saraiki. Like from Bhakkar, Layyah region. Chiniot is on the other side of Chenab and there is Thal desert between ... hence the name Thalochi, dialect spoken by those who live in and around Thal.

Yeah it has a different and unique sound , not like the flamboyant and loud Punjabi you typically hear.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 09:55 PM
Really , I thought they looked like other Punjabi but with a kind of CM vibe, some of them reminded me of Baloch for some reason. The Haryanvi people I met were both "Jaats" and they looked pretty Pan South Asian to me, from the pics I have seen to look like other Northern Indians and Pan SAs. My friend showed me some really tacky videos of crowds I was just aghast , she then told me they make crappy versions of old Punjabi tunes.

Linguistically Seraiki is a transitional language between Punjabi and Sindhi.
Is Haryanvi related to Punjabi? As far as I know Punjabi and Sindhi are from the same Prakrit group.


I always thought Haryanvi was also kind of a dialect of Punjabi but I believe now like Saraiki they are referring to it as a separate language. There is a movement in Pakistan for a separate Saraiki state as well.

As for the Baloch thing you were talking about, I believe there is a decent number of Jatts in Balochistan as well. In fact the former PM of Pakistan was Baloch Jatt.

Those people from the Tanda area are probably speaking Saraiki if they are from Multan. Thats the capital for anything Saraiki.

Khanabadoshi: His village is Hakimwala located in Chinot district which like you said is east of Chenab

Heir of Gandhara
01-30-2018, 09:58 PM
And I know the upper caste would include Brahmin but what other castes would it include? If you dont mind me asking

According to the Anthrogenica Hindi forum conventional wisdom, 'high caste' is a person whose genetic results look a certain way. For instance on Harappa, for a Punjabi, if your South Indian is between 30-35% and your Euro + Caucasian ads up to about 18-20ish%, you're 'high caste.' This should not be confused with the actual Hindu caste system whose some aspects are still very strong in Pakistan. In Pakistan, caste system is much more complex and layered whereas on Anthrogenica, it's pretty much binary. So when you read high caste here, think 'High caste like' in your head if you want to reconcile ground realities with the popular language used here.

Regarding your results, I think you could be slight 'Chamhar' shifted, but not very much so because Chamhars are more than 45%+ South Indian. Do you know the identities of all 8 of your great-grandparents?



They are many Punjabi groups which fall in that category but the standouts seem to Khatris, Arains, Aroras, Kambojs, Jats, Brahmins, in particular the Khatris because that groups seems to emanate out of the Potohar and these areas of Western Punjab along with Arains. Btw do the Arains dominate Western Punjab in the same way Jat Sikhs do in Eastern Punjab?

Numerically, I think Jatts would be the most numerous followed by Gujjars or Arains and then Rajputs and then the other baradaris.

Politically, in terms of raw numbers, Jatts are the most numerous, then Rajputs, then Arains then Awans or Kashmiris.

But if we adjust political representation with the populations of the concerned biradaris, Awans punch way above their weight, Jatts and Arians are fairly represented, Rajputs and Kashmiris are slightly over-represented but Gujjars are severely underrepresented.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 10:12 PM
All I know about my eight grandparents are that they were Punjabi. Just to be clear though, are you talking just from paternal side or both?

Heir of Gandhara
01-30-2018, 10:15 PM
All I know about my eight grandparents are that they were Punjabi. Just to be clear though, are you talking just from paternal side or both?

Both. 4 paternal and 4 maternal. Basically all grandparents of both your mother and father.

surbakhunWeesste
01-30-2018, 10:54 PM
Very helpful thank you both!
I will definitely try to get my parents to do these tests as well.

And I know the upper caste would include Brahmin but what other castes would it include? If you dont mind me asking


Caste is a form of social stratification characterized by endogamy, hereditary transmission of a lifestyle which often includes an occupation, status in a hierarchy, and customary social interaction and exclusion


four classes: Brahmins (teachers, scholars and priests), Kashatriyas (warriors and nobles), Vaishyas (farmers, traders and artisans) and Shudras (labourers/service providers).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste
That's hierarchical in practice I think.

I thought Pakistani non tribals would just marry another muslim regardless of their background.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-30-2018, 11:30 PM
According to the Anthrogenica Hindi forum conventional wisdom, 'high caste' is a person whose genetic results look a certain way. For instance on Harappa, for a Punjabi, if your South Indian is between 30-35% and your Euro + Caucasian ads up to about 18-20ish%, you're 'high caste.' This should not be confused with the actual Hindu caste system whose some aspects are still very strong in Pakistan. In Pakistan, caste system is much more complex and layered whereas on Anthrogenica, it's pretty much binary. So when you read high caste here, think 'High caste like' in your head if you want to reconcile ground realities with the popular language used here.

Regarding your results, I think you could be slight 'Chamhar' shifted, but not very much so because Chamhars are more than 45%+ South Indian. Do you know the identities of all 8 of your great-grandparents?




Numerically, I think Jatts would be the most numerous followed by Gujjars or Arains and then Rajputs and then the other baradaris.

Politically, in terms of raw numbers, Jatts are the most numerous, then Rajputs, then Arains then Awans or Kashmiris.

But if we adjust political representation with the populations of the concerned biradaris, Awans punch way above their weight, Jatts and Arians are fairly represented, Rajputs and Kashmiris are slightly over-represented but Gujjars are severely underrepresented.

Not to derail the topic but in Punjabi scenario on forum, majority of biradaris score same or similar hence we just put them in same group. Genetically all high caste SAs are less SI than other communities in their region. The only exception I can think would be real Baniyas like Goyal/agarwals etc who enjoy higher status but are genetically very SI shifted. Of course me as a Tarkhan in a Muslim punjabi society is lower than a Rajput. But both are still seen above Musselis or Mirasis which score high SI as well.

Itís messed up but genetics are very much tied with status in society.

Raza94
01-30-2018, 11:59 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste
That's hierarchical in practice I think.

I thought Pakistani non tribals would just marry another muslim regardless of their background.


I think that is mostly true but some families will keep it within tribe/caste. For example a friend of mine is memon and his family says that his sister can only marry a memon guy. Not sure if that is exactly tribe or not but stuff like that still happens, and they live in Canada. And of course in most of Pakistan they try to keep the "Syed" line pure, so they only marry Syeds off to other Syeds.

Raza94
01-31-2018, 12:02 AM
It is unfortunate that back home genetics are so linked to status. Some of these people don't even get a chance to lead a proper life if they are born into the wrong caste or family. Honestly I've never really put a lot of weight into our own "Syed" status especially when every other south asian Muslim is "Syed". Ive just gotten into all this in order to learn a little about our family history and whether we were Brahmin,Jatt,Arain,Rajput etc.

bmoney
01-31-2018, 12:41 AM
Not to derail the topic but in Punjabi scenario on forum, majority of biradaris score same or similar hence we just put them in same group. Genetically all high caste SAs are less SI than other communities in their region. The only exception I can think would be real Baniyas like Goyal/agarwals etc who enjoy higher status but are genetically very SI shifted. Of course me as a Tarkhan in a Muslim punjabi society is lower than a Rajput. But both are still seen above Musselis or Mirasis which score high SI as well.

It’s messed up but genetics are very much tied with status in society.

Do we have any Baniya samples - phenotypically they resemble their Central Indian ancestors despite having left there to spread out 100s of years ago

Ive seen a few Baniya Punjabis who look like this but speak fluent Punjabi - last names Goyal Aggarwal Bansal etc

Raza94
01-31-2018, 12:59 AM
Both. 4 paternal and 4 maternal. Basically all grandparents of both your mother and father.

Okay so,

Dads father-Jhang,Punjab
His father-Jhang,Punjab

Dads Mother-Sialkot,Punjab
Her parents-Sialkot,Punjab

Moms side-
Paternal is from Mianwali,Punjab
Maternal is from Afghanistan

EDIT: They all claim Syed ancestry going back to that time

Heir of Gandhara
01-31-2018, 01:13 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste
That's hierarchical in practice I think.

I thought Pakistani non tribals would just marry another muslim regardless of their background.

In the Pakistani rural areas, people still almost universally subscribe to an interpretation of the system. But in some sections of the society in the larger cities, things are slowly changing somewhat. But overall even in the cities, you will still frequently find some people inventing new identities to hide their old ones because they obviously see some benefit in doing so. Even in mega cities like Karachi, you will still find people with pretend identities.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-31-2018, 01:15 AM
Do we have any Baniya samples - phenotypically they resemble their Central Indian ancestors despite having left there to spread out 100s of years ago

Ive seen a few Baniya Punjabis who look like this but speak fluent Punjabi - last names Goyal Aggarwal Bansal etc

I’ve only seen one on anthroscape, he’s from UP. He scored around 52+ SI and decent east asian as well

Heir of Gandhara
01-31-2018, 01:19 AM
Okay so,

Dads father-Jhang,Punjab
His father-Jhang,Punjab

Dads Mother-Sialkot,Punjab
Her parents-Sialkot,Punjab

Moms side-
Paternal is from Mianwali,Punjab
Maternal is from Afghanistan

EDIT: They all claim Syed ancestry going back to that time

So you have genetic input from at least 4 different regions. I think if you want to better indentify you background, you will have to get your Mother and Father tested separately. Because both your parents could be very different genetically. Try checking who your closest matches are on the GedMatch 'one-to-many' tool maybe?

Sapporo
01-31-2018, 01:24 AM
I think that is mostly true but some families will keep it within tribe/caste. For example a friend of mine is memon and his family says that his sister can only marry a memon guy. Not sure if that is exactly tribe or not but stuff like that still happens, and they live in Canada. And of course in most of Pakistan they try to keep the "Syed" line pure, so they only marry Syeds off to other Syeds.
Memons and Khoja Shiekhs are just Muslim counterparts to Hindu Lohanas. All ultimately trace their origin to Sindh. Lohanas are a mercantile group like Punjabi Khatris and Kashmiri Wani. More importantly, Punjabi biraderis are more akin to tribes than normal Hindu 4 varna castes (same for Sindhis). For example, Jatts are typically labeled shudras or Vaishya depending on who you ask. Despite this, they are atop the social ladder in Indian Punjab due to numbers and land ownership. Even in Pakistani Punjab, they are one of the more influential groups. In contrast, Punjabi Brahmins have no special status nor are they genetically distinct from Jatts, Khatris, Gujjars, Arains, Rajputs, Tarkhans, etc. The most significant genetic difference is between Dalits and everyone else. Even then, some individual Chamars aren’t world’s apart.

Sapporo
01-31-2018, 01:42 AM
I’ve only seen one on anthroscape, he’s from UP. He scored around 52+ SI and decent east asian as well
I believe Harappa’s individual participant spreadsheet had an Agarwal or two.

Edit: HRP0189 is UP Agarwal (1/2) Haryana (1/2). Based on his admixture scores, I presume he is 1/2 UP Agarwal and 1/2 Haryana Agarwal. HRP0226 is a Gujarati Vaniya and scores very similar to HRP0189. HRP0237 is a Bihari Baniya. Finally, HRP0259 is a Rajasthani Agarwal.

HRP0189:
South Indian 52%
Baloch: 35%
Caucasian: 6%
NE Euro: 2%
Siberian: 1%
NE Asian: 2%
Beringian: 1%
Mediterranean: 1%
SW Asian: 1%


HRP0226:
South Indian 52%
Baloch 37%
Caucasian 2%
NE Euro 6%
SE Asian 1%
NE Asian 1%
SW Asian 1%

HRP0237:
South Indian 47%
Baloch 31%
Caucasian 5%
NE Euro 5%
SE Asian 2%
Siberian 2%
NE Asian 1%
Papuan 1%
American 2%
Mediterranean 1%
SW Asian 1%
San 1%

HRP0259:
South Indian 51%
Baloch 37%
Caucasian 6%
NE Euro 1%
Siberian 2%
NE Asian 1%
Beringian: 1%
SW Asian 1%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ou8tDgV-XsvL-HH_2zpmbChJVEZKQIG3uU-JBet2G_Q/edit?hl=en&hl=en#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=1

I know a few people mentioned Chamar so I'm adding that HRP0270 is a Punjabi Chamar. He is much less Southeastern shifted than some of the PJL (Punjabi Lahore) samples. I've actually spoken to this individual before. He is Sikh from what I recollect.

HRP0270:
South Indian 40%
Caucasian: 9%
NE Euro 6%
Siberian 2%
NE Asian 2%
Papuan 2%
American 2%
Beringian 1%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian 1%
Pygmy 1%

Heir of Gandhara
01-31-2018, 01:54 AM
Memons and Khoja Shiekhs are just Muslim counterparts to Hindu Lohanas. All ultimately trace their origin to Sindh. Lohanas are a mercantile group like Punjabi Khatris and Kashmiri Wani. More importantly, Punjabi biraderis are more akin to tribes than normal Hindu 4 varna castes (same for Sindhis). For example, Jatts are typically labeled shudras or Vaishya depending on who you ask. Despite this, they are atop the social ladder in Indian Punjab due to numbers and land ownership. Even in Pakistani Punjab, they are one of the more influential groups. In contrast, Punjabi Brahmins have no special status nor are they genetically distinct from Jatts, Khatris, Gujjars, Arains, Rajputs, Tarkhans, etc. The most significant genetic difference is between Dalits and everyone else. Even then, some individual Chamars arenít worldís apart.


But the system in place is still an interpretation of the Hindu caste system such that biradaris and their status in society are primarily governed by their profession rather than a common descent. Plus maybe the system has changed in East Punjab due to Sikhism but in Pakistan, it still remains complex and layered.

Plus I am also under the impression that the Indian Punjab is much less diverse than the Pakistani Punjab. What is the biradari makeup of East Punjab?

surbakhunWeesste
01-31-2018, 02:26 AM
In the Pakistani rural areas, people still almost universally subscribe to an interpretation of the system. But in some sections of the society in the larger cities, things are slowly changing somewhat. But overall even in the cities, you will still frequently find some people inventing new identities to hide their old ones because they obviously see some benefit in doing so. Even in mega cities like Karachi, you will still find people with pretend identities.

Thatís true for many from the region. One pretends then marries within, after generations, that presumed identity becomes a reality. For an instance, a tribe with atleast 3-5 different ydnas. Thatís just another process of mixing and survival imo. One of my far relative who settled in Karachi got married to a Pashtun person from there, who genetically turned out to be a non Pashtun, not sure how being a Pashtun in Karachi is fruitful, their whole family identifies as such but thatís just one case. Few Pashtuns who eat drink and sleep in Islam do say they are syeds as well, most of it is just BS. I have few far cousins from there who donít identify as Pashtuns but Sindhis, that one makes sense because of the Pashtun identity problem there, at least to me.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-31-2018, 03:07 AM
But the system in place is still an interpretation of the Hindu caste system such that biradaris and their status in society are primarily governed by their profession rather than a common descent. Plus maybe the system has changed in East Punjab due to Sikhism but in Pakistan, it still remains complex and layered.

Plus I am also under the impression that the Indian Punjab is much less diverse than the Pakistani Punjab. What is the biradari makeup of East Punjab?

Indian punjab is indeed less diverse than Pakistan punjab, and it has a lot to do with the religion. The members of Hindu and Sikh community still have old genetic makeup and tribes that have been living in the region for ages. But in Pakistan Punjab there is recent ancestry from Afghanistan, Balochistan, Iran, Arabian countries or maybe central asia as we see in Raza's results. That gave birth to some unique biradaris exclusive to west punjab like Syeds, Sheikhs or Kashmiri punjabis.

Indian Punjab has farming and landowning communities like Jatts, Sainis, Lubanas, Kambohs, Rajputs and Gujjars. Then because of Sikhism you have Ramgarhias (Sikh Tarkhans) and Ahluwalias with heavy influence as well. Then you have traditional kami biradaris like Nai, Kumaahr or Lohars. The "low status" communities are Chamars (Ravidassi Sikhs), Churahs (Mazhabi Sikhs), Mirassis, Bazigars, Siglikars, Vanjaras etc. We lacks Awans or Arains which used to reside in east punjab before partition. But I have yet to see a muslim saini, and I have seen plenty of Hindu and Sikh sainis.

We might have awans or arains but I haven't met any, although Malerkotla which is Muslim majority area of east punjab has "Punjabi pashtuns" who settled here 200 years ago. Ludhiana used to be stronghold for some Punjabi Pashtuns families as well before partition.

surbakhunWeesste
01-31-2018, 03:25 AM
Indian punjab is indeed less diverse than Pakistan punjab, and it has a lot to do with the religion. The members of Hindu and Sikh community still have old genetic makeup and tribes that have been living in the region for ages. But in Pakistan Punjab there is recent ancestry from Afghanistan, Balochistan, Iran, Arabian countries or maybe central asia as we see in Raza's results. That gave birth to some unique biradaris exclusive to west punjab like Syeds, Sheikhs or Kashmiri punjabis.

Indian Punjab has farming and landowning communities like Jatts, Sainis, Lubanas, Kambohs, Rajputs and Gujjars. Then because of Sikhism you have Ramgarhias (Sikh Tarkhans) and Ahluwalias with heavy influence as well. Then you have traditional kami biradaris like Nai, Kumaahr or Lohars. The "low status" communities are Chamars (Ravidassi Sikhs), Churahs (Mazhabi Sikhs), Mirassis, Bazigars, Siglikars, Vanjaras etc. We lacks Awans or Arains which used to reside in east punjab before partition. But I have yet to see a muslim saini, and I have seen plenty of Hindu and Sikh sainis.

We might have awans or arains but I haven't met any, although Malerkotla which is Muslim majority area of east punjab has "Punjabi pashtuns" who settled here 200 years ago. Ludhiana used to be stronghold for some Punjabi Pashtuns families as well before partition.

Must be Niazis and some Lodhis.

Kulin
01-31-2018, 03:33 AM
Must be Niazis and some Lodhis.

The Nawab of Malerkotla belonged to a family of Pashtuns from the Shirani tribe, so I'm guessing most Pashtuns in Malerkotla are Shirani.

surbakhunWeesste
01-31-2018, 03:38 AM
The Nawab of Malerkotla belonged to a family of Pashtuns from the Shirani tribe, so I'm guessing most Pashtuns in Malerkotla are Shirani.

Shirani are Bettani like Lodhi.

passion
01-31-2018, 03:49 AM
Indian punjab is indeed less diverse than Pakistan punjab, and it has a lot to do with the religion. The members of Hindu and Sikh community still have old genetic makeup and tribes that have been living in the region for ages. But in Pakistan Punjab there is recent ancestry from Afghanistan, Balochistan, Iran, Arabian countries or maybe central asia as we see in Raza's results. That gave birth to some unique biradaris exclusive to west punjab like Syeds, Sheikhs or Kashmiri punjabis.

Indian Punjab has farming and landowning communities like Jatts, Sainis, Lubanas, Kambohs, Rajputs and Gujjars. Then because of Sikhism you have Ramgarhias (Sikh Tarkhans) and Ahluwalias with heavy influence as well. Then you have traditional kami biradaris like Nai, Kumaahr or Lohars. The "low status" communities are Chamars (Ravidassi Sikhs), Churahs (Mazhabi Sikhs), Mirassis, Bazigars, Siglikars, Vanjaras etc. We lacks Awans or Arains which used to reside in east punjab before partition. But I have yet to see a muslim saini, and I have seen plenty of Hindu and Sikh sainis.

We might have awans or arains but I haven't met any, although Malerkotla which is Muslim majority area of east punjab has "Punjabi pashtuns" who settled here 200 years ago. Ludhiana used to be stronghold for some Punjabi Pashtuns families as well before partition.

you can add Punjabi Pashtuns like Niazis to it , many Pashtun tribes living in Punjab are well assimilated into Punjabi identity.

Heir of Gandhara
01-31-2018, 03:54 AM
Must be Niazis and some Lodhis.

There are some people in Punjab who almost certainly are of Afghan descent. To name a few: Nawabs of Pataudi in Haryana, Mamdots, Kasuris, Khakwanis, Tareens and even Niazis.

But this brings me to another point if, in a purist sense, a Pushtoon is a person who speaks Pushto then why do you call the people who tricked your cousin fake Pushtoons? Did they not speak Pushto? Conversely, if a person starts speaking Pushto and adopts Pashtunwali as a way of life, is he Pushtoon? Or does the person have to be of Afghan descent, speak Pushto and also subscribe to the code to be considered the real deal? Was Zahir Shah, the last King of Afghanistan a legit Pushtoon if claims that he did not speak Pashto are assumed to be true?

And MDL, can you estimate a percentage for each biradari? Cos if I only rely on the entertainment industry then East Punjab just seems overwhelmingly Jatt and Khatri with some artisan castes. Can you name a few doubtless Rajput, Brahmin and Gujjar Sikh tribes? Please note that the entertainment industry and some Mughal and British records are my only sources when it comes to East Punjab.

Raza94
01-31-2018, 04:18 AM
There are some people in Punjab who almost certainly are of Afghan descent. To name a few: Nawabs of Pataudi in Haryana, Mamdots, Kasuris, Khakwanis, Tareens and even Niazis.

But this brings me to another point if, in a purist sense, a Pushtoon is a person who speaks Pushto then why do you call the people who tricked your cousin fake Pushtoons? Did they not speak Pushto? Conversely, if a person starts speaking Pushto and adopts Pashtunwali as a way of life, is he Pushtoon? Or does the person have to be of Afghan descent, speak Pushto and also subscribe to the code to be considered the real deal? Was Zahir Shah, the last King of Afghanistan a legit Pushtoon if claims that he did not speak Pashto are assumed to be true?

And MDL, can you estimate a percentage for each biradari? Cos if I only rely on the entertainment industry then East Punjab just seems overwhelmingly Jatt and Khatri with some artisan castes. Can you name a few doubtless Rajput, Brahmin and Gujjar Sikh tribes? Please note that the entertainment industry and some Mughal and British records are my only sources when it comes to East Punjab.

Yea I was also wondering if there was a way to calculate for each birdari. And You are also right in the fact that from what I know all of East Punjab is Jatt. Don't think Ive ever met someone from East Punjab who wasn't Jatt.

Sapporo
01-31-2018, 04:30 AM
But the system in place is still an interpretation of the Hindu caste system such that biradaris and their status in society are primarily governed by their profession rather than a common descent. Plus maybe the system has changed in East Punjab due to Sikhism but in Pakistan, it still remains complex and layered.

Plus I am also under the impression that the Indian Punjab is much less diverse than the Pakistani Punjab. What is the biradari makeup of East Punjab?

That may be true to an extent but are groups like Pakistani Punjabi Jats really treated as Vaishya or shudras? The Pakistani Punjabi Jatt members are less active now but from my understanding Jatts are a dominant population wise in certain regions of West Punjab and thus typically highest in the social hierarchy and wielding the most political influence. Clearly, it's not the case in every region of Punjab as some regions are dominated by Rajputs, Awans, Arains, Syeds, etc. Another example are Gujjars who are "technically" an OBC (Other Backward Class) but certainly aren't treated as such throughout all of Punjab. What about groups such as Arains? How are they treated and what position do they hold in Pakistani Punjab's social stratification. The majority of Arains actually originate from pre-partition East Punjab to my knowledge. I think it is also important to note that all 3 of these groups (Jatts, Gujjars and Arains) are agricultural groups of Punjab. The Gujjar are typically a pastoral agricultural group while Jatts were pastoralist but became settled landowners and Arains are usually farmers or landowners.

Also, how are groups like Shiekhs (Khatri converts) treated? Are they still considered a mercantile group? I've heard that many Sudhans of Azad Kashmir are actually of Punjabi or Jammu Brahmin origin?

As for the biradari makeup of East Punjab, I can't say with 100% certainty. All I know is Indian Punjab (East Punjab) is estimated to be 25%+ Jatt Sikh alone. Let's say it is 30%. Dalit estimates I've seen range from anywhere from 30-40% of the population. This would leave the rest of Punjab to be made up of the remaining 35% ish (Brahmin, Rajput, Tarkhan, Saini, Gujjar, Khatri, Arora, Kamboj, etc.). MonkeyDLuffy knows the demographics more in detail than myself. I believe the majority of Khatris and Aroras live in Delhi rather than Punjab. Indian Punjab is roughly 60% Sikh and 40% Hindu. However, there is a small minority of Punjabi Muslims who did not migrate during partition.

Now, these days there are lot of Bihari migrants and other non Punjabis living in Indian Punjab and many Indian Punjabis have migrated to other states or regions of India.

Raza94
01-31-2018, 04:40 AM
That may be true to an extent but are groups like Pakistani Punjabi Jats really treated as Vaishya or shudras? The Pakistani Punjabi Jatt members are less active now but from my understanding Jatts are dominant population wise in certain regions of Western Punjab and thus typically highest in the social hierarchy and wielding the most political influence. Another example are Gujjars who are "technically" an OBC (Other Backward Class) but certainly aren't treated as such throughout all of Punjab. What about groups such as Arains? How are they treated and what position do they hold in Pakistani Punjab's social stratification. A significant percentage of Arains actually originate from East Punjab to my knowledge. I think it is also important to note that all 3 of these groups (Jatts, Gujjars and Arains) are agricultural groups of Punjab. The Gujjar are typically a pastoral agricultural group while Jatts were pastoralist but became settled landowners and Arains either small-time farmers or landowners.


Well to give you an idea about representation of Arains, I did not even know they existed until I came onto this forum. The same goes for Gujjars. Only thing I knew about were Jatts, but that could also be because most of the greater Punjabi entertainment industry comes from East Punjab, and there everyone seems to be Jatt

Sapporo
01-31-2018, 04:43 AM
Well to give you an idea about representation of Arains, I did not even know they existed until I came onto this forum. The same goes for Gujjars. Only thing I knew about were Jatts, but that could also be because most of the greater Punjabi entertainment industry comes from East Punjab, and there everyone seems to be Jatt


Before I entered the world of online/armchair anthropology and genetics in 2012, the only Punjabi populations I knew of were Jatts, Khatris, Rajputs, Brahmins and Tarkhans. I had no idea what a Gujjar, Arain, Awan, Kamboj, etc. was. My dad actually told me Tarkhans "were low caste but nice people." So when I met MonkeyDLuffy and did my own research, my views changed dramatically. :eek:

surbakhunWeesste
01-31-2018, 04:48 AM
There are some people in Punjab who almost certainly are of Afghan descent. To name a few: Nawabs of Pataudi in Haryana, Mamdots, Kasuris, Khakwanis, Tareens and even Niazis.

But this brings me to another point if, in a purist sense, a Pushtoon is a person who speaks Pushto then why do you call the people who tricked your cousin fake Pushtoons? Did they not speak Pushto? Conversely, if a person starts speaking Pushto and adopts Pashtunwali as a way of life, is he Pushtoon? Or does the person have to be of Afghan descent, speak Pushto and also subscribe to the code to be considered the real deal? Was Zahir Shah, the last King of Afghanistan a legit Pushtoon if claims that he did not speak Pashto are assumed to be true?


They didn't trick, they were culturally Pashtuns not in the most absolute sense ofc, no one considers them fake Pashtuns lol, just that genetics showed something else, given that they were supposedly of the same tribe. Zahir Shah and fam moreso adopted persian way of life and reign style, tribal Pashtuns didn't care about them.
Anyone can be a Pashtun if they follow the Pashtun way of life, that is follow Pashtunwali, hence the confederation, folklore and genetics shows it as well: that's the old school code. I don't know what other Pashtuns/Pakhtuns will say about recent times, I doubt most actually follow it in recent times, the codes will sweat anyone out. We have had massive tribal animosity even today despite the call for a Pashtunistan: say Durranis Alakozai(zirak subtribe) will agree with one thing while Noorzais(panjpai) will have a nay and won't even acknowledge their existence. Ideologically speaking, there is nothing called Pashtun by blood, we have many adopted tribes. But I suppose you can say that a lineage is likely Pashtun (genetically speaking). However, you cannot be a punjabi and a Pashtun at the same time, at least in tribal areas. You can say your forefathers were Pashtuns at one point but since you no longer practice the Pashtun way of life, you aren't one, you will treated as a hamsaya. Only true for males ofc.

Raza94
01-31-2018, 04:56 AM
Before I entered the world of online/armchair anthropology and genetics in 2012, the only Punjabi populations I knew of were Jatts, Khatris, Rajputs, Brahmins and Tarkhans. I had no idea what a Gujjar, Arain, Awan, Kamboj, etc. was. My dad actually told me Tarkhans "were low caste but nice people." So when I met MonkeyDLuffy and did my own research, my views changed dramatically. :eek:

Yea I've also done some research on all these people and it has really surprised me how much these things are still in use today.

And this may be a dumb question but, the L657 branch, what people is that most common with?

bmoney
01-31-2018, 06:13 AM
I believe Harappaís individual participant spreadsheet had an Agarwal or two.

Edit: HRP0189 is UP Agarwal (1/2) Haryana (1/2). Based on his admixture scores, I presume he is 1/2 UP Agarwal and 1/2 Haryana Agarwal. HRP0226 is a Gujarati Vaniya and scores very similar to HRP0189. HRP0237 is a Bihari Baniya. Finally, HRP0259 is a Rajasthani Agarwal.

HRP0189:
South Indian 52%
Baloch: 35%
Caucasian: 6%
NE Euro: 2%
Siberian: 1%
NE Asian: 2%
Beringian: 1%
Mediterranean: 1%
SW Asian: 1%


HRP0226:
South Indian 52%
Baloch 37%
Caucasian 2%
NE Euro 6%
SE Asian 1%
NE Asian 1%
SW Asian 1%

HRP0237:
South Indian 47%
Baloch 31%
Caucasian 5%
NE Euro 5%
SE Asian 2%
Siberian 2%
NE Asian 1%
Papuan 1%
American 2%
Mediterranean 1%
SW Asian 1%
San 1%

HRP0259:
South Indian 51%
Baloch 37%
Caucasian 6%
NE Euro 1%
Siberian 2%
NE Asian 1%
Beringian: 1%
SW Asian 1%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ou8tDgV-XsvL-HH_2zpmbChJVEZKQIG3uU-JBet2G_Q/edit?hl=en&hl=en#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=1

I know a few people mentioned Chamar so I'm adding that HRP0270 is a Punjabi Chamar. He is much less Southeastern shifted than some of the PJL (Punjabi Lahore) samples. I've actually spoken to this individual before. He is Sikh from what I recollect.

HRP0270:
South Indian 40%
Caucasian: 9%
NE Euro 6%
Siberian 2%
NE Asian 2%
Papuan 2%
American 2%
Beringian 1%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian 1%
Pygmy 1%

amazed at the consistency in samples despite the huge geographic range

@ Punjabi Chamars - I expect Sikh Chamar samples would be more mixed due to the relatively higher caste blending seen in Sikhism

Heir of Gandhara
01-31-2018, 07:02 AM
That may be true to an extent but are groups like Pakistani Punjabi Jats really treated as Vaishya or shudras? The Pakistani Punjabi Jatt members are less active now but from my understanding Jatts are a dominant population wise in certain regions of West Punjab and thus typically highest in the social hierarchy and wielding the most political influence. Clearly, it's not the case in every region of Punjab as some regions are dominated by Rajputs, Awans, Arains, etc. Another example are Gujjars who are "technically" an OBC (Other Backward Class) but certainly aren't treated as such throughout all of Punjab. What about groups such as Arains? How are they treated and what position do they hold in Pakistani Punjab's social stratification. The majority of Arains actually originate from pre-partition East Punjab to my knowledge. I think it is also important to note that all 3 of these groups (Jatts, Gujjars and Arains) are agricultural groups of Punjab. The Gujjar are typically a pastoral agricultural group while Jatts were pastoralist but became settled landowners and Arains are usually farmers or landowners.

How are groups like Shiekhs (Khatri converts) treated? Are they still considered a mercantile group? I've heard that many Sudhans of Azad Kashmir are actually of Punjabi or Jammu Brahmin origin?

As for the biradari makeup of East Punjab, I can't say with 100% certainty. All I know is Indian Punjab (East Punjab) is estimated to be 25%+ Jatt Sikh alone. Let's say it is 30%. Dalit estimates I've seen range from anywhere from 30-40% of the population. This would leave the rest of Punjab to be made up of the remaining 35% ish (Brahmin, Rajput, Tarkhan, Saini, Gujjar, Khatri, Arora, Kamboj, etc.). MonkeyDLuffy knows the demographics more in detail than myself. I believe the majority of Khatris and Aroras live in Delhi rather than Punjab. Indian Punjab is roughly 60% Sikh and 40% Hindu. However, there is a small minority of Punjabi Muslims who did not migrate during partition.

Now, these days there are lot of Bihari migrants and other non Punjabis living in Indian Punjab and many Indian Punjabis have migrated to other states or regions of India.

First a disclaimer: the caste system in Pakistani Punjab is an interpretation of the Hindu caste system but has its own trends due to the arrival of new faiths. Okay to understand Western or Pakistani Punjab, we will first have to understand it's sub-regions. It has the following 4-5 depending on who you ask:

1) Central Punjab and this is the region most like Eastern Punjab.
2) Pothwar that includes the modern-day districts of Rawalpindi(minus Murree and Kotli Sattian), Jhelum, Attock, Chakwal and all regions north of Khushab to Quaidabad road in the Khushab district.
3) South Punjab whose boundaries are debatable but is centered around Multan to Sahiwal region
4) West Punjab is all regions west of Indus plus all regions in the Sind Sagar Doab up until the boundary with Pothwar.
5) Also maybe the Bahawalpur state if you're feeling enterprising.

Easiest is West Punjab where the social elite is mostly Syed, Baloch(like the Legharis for example) and tribes like Tiwana. After that come the Jatts, Gujjars and the mercantile classes.

Pothwar is also pretty straightforward with top slot traditionally occupied by Janjuas and Gakkhars, then Syeds, then other Rajas and Awans and then Jatts and Gujjars and other mercantile classes.

South Punjab I am not super sure about but here too the top slots are occupied by Syeds, then Johiyas and Kharrals, Jatts like the Sials also find some prominence here but Gujjars and the Mercantile classes come after.

For the above three regions, the sequence roughly matches the Hindu caste system without using terms like Vaishya and Shudra etc.

But Central Punjab is where things seem to change somewhat. Here social hierarchy will not follow the general caste system but instead will have to be analyzed on the clan and family level. Syeds, however, will still remain near the very top and Rajputs will also be well respected almost universally I think. But here Jatts and Gujjars also form the traditional elite of many districts. For example among the Jatts the Chatthas and Virks of Gujranwala and Shiekhupura, the Tarars of Hafizabad, Gondals of Mandi Bahauddin, Wattoos of Okara and the Nakais of Kasur are very influential. Among the Gujjars, the Khatanas of Dinga, the Mians of Lala Musa and also the Gujjars of Shakar Garh come to mind.

Of late Zamindar-non-zamindar divide has also become material and that's why I think the mercantile classes have been further pushed back in the traditional social hierarchies.

These are my opinions and observations and as such, I do not consider them infallible. If you have evidence to the contrary please share so that I may expand my knowledge.

prashantvaidwan
01-31-2018, 11:51 AM
Not to derail the topic but in Punjabi scenario on forum, majority of biradaris score same or similar hence we just put them in same group. Genetically all high caste SAs are less SI than other communities in their region. The only exception I can think would be real Baniyas like Goyal/agarwals etc who enjoy higher status but are genetically very SI shifted. Of course me as a Tarkhan in a Muslim punjabi society is lower than a Rajput. But both are still seen above Musselis or Mirasis which score high SI as well.

It’s messed up but genetics are very much tied with status in society.

I guess this phenomenon fits well only for Brahmins throughout the India (apart from north west), we don't have enough samples for other communities to conclude anything impeccable. For example, on Harappa ancestry, a rajasthani Rajput SI is 45% while a Rajasthani jat SI is below 30% but rajputs in rajputana enjoy a higher social status than jatts. Though , despite claiming the higher status, rajputs are heavily marginalized in few areas of rajasthan , lost all their lands and lagging behind other farming communities economically.

baniyas and kayasthas of UP/Bihar with a high social status will exceed in SI in comparison of yadavs classified as sudras, yadavs SI should be same as rajputs. probably, yadavs, gujjar and jats, termed as degraded Kshatriyas by many historians and classified as sudras in Rajput/brahmin dominated land, will not exceed in SI from rajputs of that region. In north west, they even may fair better than other high castes.

prashantvaidwan
01-31-2018, 11:57 AM
Before I entered the world of online/armchair anthropology and genetics in 2012, the only Punjabi populations I knew of were Jatts, Khatris, Rajputs, Brahmins and Tarkhans. I had no idea what a Gujjar, Arain, Awan, Kamboj, etc. was. My dad actually told me Tarkhans "were low caste but nice people." So when I met MonkeyDLuffy and did my own research, my views changed dramatically. :eek:

I also talked with many Punjabis jat/khatris, they all had the same impression as "low caste" for tarkhans, but genetically, with few available samples, they seem no different from other Punjabi high castes. Tarkhans is the term for carpenter/lohar and in Haryana they are called "khatis".

Interestingly, tarkhan was also used a title by few central Asian tribes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan

tarkhan as carpenter/lohar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan

pegasus
01-31-2018, 12:08 PM
Not to derail the topic but in Punjabi scenario on forum, majority of biradaris score same or similar hence we just put them in same group. Genetically all high caste SAs are less SI than other communities in their region. The only exception I can think would be real Baniyas like Goyal/agarwals etc who enjoy higher status but are genetically very SI shifted. Of course me as a Tarkhan in a Muslim punjabi society is lower than a Rajput. But both are still seen above Musselis or Mirasis which score high SI as well.

Itís messed up but genetics are very much tied with status in society.

I was reading the Tarkan community are a local version of the "Vishwakarma " group which consisted of engineers and carpenters which splintered off from Brahmins at some point, it makes sense though based of their results they seem to cluster with them (ie Punjabi Brahmins and similar groups).

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 12:15 PM
First a disclaimer: the caste system in Pakistani Punjab is an interpretation of the Hindu caste system but has its own trends due to the arrival of new faiths. Okay to understand Western or Pakistani Punjab, we will first have to understand it's sub-regions. It has the following 4-5 depending on who you ask:

1) Central Punjab and this is the region most like Eastern Punjab.
2) Pothwar that includes the modern-day districts of Rawalpindi(minus Murree and Kotli Sattian), Jhelum, Attock, Chakwal and all regions north of Khushab to Quaidabad road in the Khushab district.
3) South Punjab whose boundaries are debatable but is centered around Multan to Sahiwal region
4) West Punjab is all regions west of Indus plus all regions in the Sind Sagar Doab up until the boundary with Pothwar.
5) Also maybe the Bahawalpur state if you're feeling enterprising.

Easiest is West Punjab where the social elite is mostly Syed, Baloch(like the Legharis for example) and tribes like Tiwana. After that come the Jatts, Gujjars and the mercantile classes.

Pothwar is also pretty straightforward with top slot traditionally occupied by Janjuas and Gakkhars, then Syeds, then other Rajas and Awans and then Jatts and Gujjars and other mercantile classes.

South Punjab I am not super sure about but here too the top slots are occupied by Syeds, then Johiyas and Kharrals, Jatts like the Sials also find some prominence here but Gujjars and the Mercantile classes come after.

For the above three regions, the sequence roughly matches the Hindu caste system without using terms like Vaishya and Shudra etc.

But Central Punjab is where things seem to change somewhat. Here social hierarchy will not follow the general caste system but instead will have to be analyzed on the clan and family level. Syeds, however, will still remain near the very top and Rajputs will also be well respected almost universally I think. But here Jatts and Gujjars also form the traditional elite of many districts. For example among the Jatts the Chatthas and Virks of Gujranwala and Shiekhupura, the Tarars of Hafizabad, Gondals of Mandi Bahauddin, Wattoos of Okara and the Nakais of Kasur are very influential. Among the Gujjars, the Khatanas of Dinga, the Mians of Lala Musa and also the Gujjars of Shakar Garh come to mind.

Of late Zamindar-non-zamindar divide has also become material and that's why I think the mercantile classes have been further pushed back in the traditional social hierarchies.

These are my opinions and observations and as such, I do not consider them infallible. If you have evidence to the contrary please share so that I may expand my knowledge.

I think Arains dominate in Toba Tek Singh, so that'd be something to mention too.

In South Punjab, I know of Sials and Khars. Various Gujjars also have prominence. But mostly I am familiar with Qasranis, Legharis, other Baloch, various Syeds, and then the Khars. There are a decent amount of Rajput and Awan, especially in the cities. Awans probably moved to the region later, in 1950s, but every one I met was involved in some industry.

Land is owned by the Baloch, Syeds, Pashtun, and Jatts. Business and Industry by the Rajputs. Awans, some Jatts and Gujjars. Politics is dominated by Baloch, Syed, and certain Jatts and Gujjars. However, political influence is very specific -- meaning Khars are super influential in their area, but outside it, they have little.

As far as status, I'd say it's much more based on socioeconomic than tribe/clan -- f. ex. the guy working the farm is the same tribe as me, the cop is the same tribe, the one in jail in the same tribe, the drug dealer, the addict, the politician, the lawyer -- all the same tribe. So in that society, my neighbor who is a Shi'a Alvi and I are more equal in "status", strictly because we are in similar socioeconomic conditions.

pegasus
01-31-2018, 12:21 PM
I think Arains dominate in Toba Tek Singh, so that'd be something to mention too.

In South Punjab, I know of Sials and Khars. Various Gujjars also have prominence. But mostly I am familiar with Qasranis, Legharis, other Baloch, various Syeds, and then the Khars. There are a decent amount of Rajput and Awan, especially in the cities. Awans probably moved to the region later, in 1950s, but every one I met was involved in some industry.

Land is owned by the Baloch, Syeds, Pashtun, and Jatts. Business and Industry by the Rajputs. Awans, some Jatts and Gujjars. Politics is dominated by Baloch, Syed, and certain Jatts and Gujjars. However, political influence is very specific -- meaning Khars are super influential in their area, but outside it, they have little.

As far as status, I'd say it's much more based on socioeconomic than tribe/clan -- f. ex. the guy working the farm is the same tribe as me, the cop is the same tribe, the one in jail in the same tribe, the drug dealer, the addict, the politician, the lawyer -- all the same tribe. So in that society, my neighbor who is a Shi'a Alvi and I are more equal in "status", strictly because we are in similar socioeconomic conditions.

Can you elaborate on Khetranis? What are they and who do they cluster with.

Heir of Gandhara
01-31-2018, 12:28 PM
I think Arains dominate in Toba Tek Singh, so that'd be something to mention too.

In South Punjab, I know of Sials and Khars. Various Gujjars also have prominence. But mostly I am familiar with Qasranis, Legharis, other Baloch, various Syeds, and then the Khars. There are a decent amount of Rajput and Awan, especially in the cities. Awans probably moved to the region later, in 1950s, but every one I met was involved in some industry.

Land is owned by the Baloch, Syeds, Pashtun, and Jatts. Business and Industry by the Rajputs. Awans, some Jatts and Gujjars. Politics is dominated by Baloch, Syed, and certain Jatts and Gujjars. However, political influence is very specific -- meaning Khars are super influential in their area, but outside it, they have little.

As far as status, I'd say it's much more based on socioeconomic than tribe/clan -- f. ex. the guy working the farm is the same tribe as me, the cop is the same tribe, the one in jail in the same tribe, the drug dealer, the addict, the politician, the lawyer -- all the same tribe. So in that society, my neighbor who is a Shi'a Alvi and I are more equal in "status", strictly because we are in similar socioeconomic conditions.

I was strictly talking in the historical sense that's why I repeatedly use the phrase traditional elite.

South Punjab of today has many settlers like the Awans you talk about. Awans are native to Pothwar so they obviously got to South Punjab via British land grants. In the same way I know some Jatts who migrated from East Punjab and settled in South Punjab. So for my observations, I did not count these settlers as native to the regions. Are the Arains that you mentioned settlers or natives?

Status is based on socioeconomic status, yes, but a Syed has a headstart at birth while people from the lower castes are dealt a bad hand from the get-go.

This caste talk will make me puke now. It's vile. (Edit: Not talk, talk I can do just fine but thinking about caste system is vomit inducing)

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 12:37 PM
Well to give you an idea about representation of Arains, I did not even know they existed until I came onto this forum. The same goes for Gujjars. Only thing I knew about were Jatts, but that could also be because most of the greater Punjabi entertainment industry comes from East Punjab, and there everyone seems to be Jatt


Before I entered the world of online/armchair anthropology and genetics in 2012, the only Punjabi populations I knew of were Jatts, Khatris, Rajputs, Brahmins and Tarkhans. I had no idea what a Gujjar, Arain, Awan, Kamboj, etc. was. My dad actually told me Tarkhans "were low caste but nice people." So when I met MonkeyDLuffy and did my own research, my views changed dramatically. :eek:

LOL this is true. I still don't know what half these things are. For all the research I've done, the only place I really understand somewhat well is where I'm from.
I knew of Arains and Gujjars before; but I just assumed Gujjars are people from Gujaranwala and they are named after a place like we are; and I thought Arains are Jatts. Rajputs are a kind of Jatt. And everyone else who speaks Punjabi is Jatt and their specific names are just subtribes of Jatts.

Basically, I think since where I live is mostly tribes, we view all Punjab in that sense. So everything is a subtribe of Jatt.

The word "zaat" has the meaning of "personal identity" not "status/station" -- like, "zaati mu'amla, "a personal problem". So the whole high-caste/low-caste thing when learning about the demographics of the region was something to get familiar with.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 12:58 PM
Someone was mentioning Shirani:

Head of the Islamic Council of something-or-another in Pakistan is a Shirani. He is from Zhob, Qilla Saifullah, very near the border. If I remember correctly, some of the HGDP samples are from around here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Khan_Sherani

http://img.xooimage.com/files110/6/0/7/image390-4c5758f.jpg

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 01:07 PM
I was strictly talking in the historical sense that's why I repeatedly use the phrase traditional elite.

South Punjab of today has many settlers like the Awans you talk about. Awans are native to Pothwar so they obviously got to South Punjab via British land grants. In the same way I know some Jatts who migrated from East Punjab and settled in South Punjab. So for my observations, I did not count these settlers as native to the regions. Are the Arains that you mentioned settlers or natives?

Status is based on socioeconomic status, yes, but a Syed has a headstart at birth while people from the lower castes are dealt a bad hand from the get-go.

This caste talk will make me puke now. It's vile. (Edit: Not talk, talk I can do just fine but thinking about caste system is vomit inducing)

I think all Awan are settlers. I've not known any to be native to the region.

Also in Multan and Dera Ghazi Khan are lots of Haryanvi. Many of the shopkeepers in Multan are such. MonkeyDLuffy was mentioning it sounds like Saraiki, but to me Haryanvi sounds like between Punjabi and Hindi -- but maybe they weren't speaking Haryanvi in front of me? if their language is like Saraiki, none of them speak it (though all understand it well), also none speak Punjabi. They mostly speak in what I can best describe and a kind of Hindi/Punjabi mix or Urdu, with a strong shift towards Urdu/Hindi. They use words like "mera ko" / "tera ko" instead of mujhe/mujh ko or menu, or maikoon. Maybe they were all just speaking Urdu with me though and I never heard Haryanvi. All the Haryanvi I know from DG Khan are were exclusively Urdu-speaking though.

passion
01-31-2018, 01:12 PM
LOL this is true. I still don't know what half these things are. For all the research I've done, the only place I really understand somewhat well is where I'm from.
I knew of Arains and Gujjars before; but I just assumed Gujjars are people from Gujaranwala and they are named after a place like we are; and I thought Arains are Jatts. Rajputs are a kind of Jatt. And everyone else who speaks Punjabi is Jatt and their specific names are just subtribes of Jatts.

Basically, I think since where I live is mostly tribes, we view all Punjab in that sense. So everything is a subtribe of Jatt.

The word "zaat" has the meaning of "personal identity" not "status/station" -- like, "zaati mu'amla, "a personal problem". So the whole high-caste/low-caste thing when learning about the demographics of the region was something to get familiar with.

Do you have any result for Kohistani people of Pakistan. they are one of lesser known Pakistani ethnicity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohistani_people

bmoney
01-31-2018, 01:18 PM
I was reading the Tarkan community are a local version of the "Vishwakarma " group which consisted of engineers and carpenters which splintered off from Brahmins at some point, it makes sense though based of their results they seem to cluster with them (ie Punjabi Brahmins and similar groups).

Vishwakarmas in the south are considered OBC and would shift more SI - In East Punjab like MDL said the gene link is broken except maybe the the lowest castes

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 01:19 PM
Can you elaborate on Khetranis? What are they and who do they cluster with.

They speak a kind of Saraiki with lots of Balochi loanwords or maybe Balochi with lots of Saraiki loanwords. Much of it is intelligible to me. Coincidentally, DG Khan Saraiki-Baloch speak similarly because over time they have taken loanwords from each other. They are from Balochistan and live to the north of the Bugtis and northeast of the Marris. Everyone else at this point north speaks Pashto in Balochistan. And thus locally, the Baloch consider them the be Lohdi Pashtuns who assimilated into Baloch culture but took Saraiki as their language due to being close and more northern along the Indus. I have known Khetranis (my boss in Pakistan was one), and he just spoke to me in regular Saraiki. They are culturally like the Baloch and Saraiki near them, but they have their own kind of variation of the chaap dance (in Saraiki, jhumer).

I know I've seen a Khetrani result before, but I can't remember off the top of my head how he clustered.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 01:41 PM
Do you have any result for Kohistani people of Pakistan. they are one of lesser known Pakistani ethnicity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohistani_people

Nope. I know a Kohistani girl and was hoping she would test, but she didn't. That would be a good group to test, especially based on the geography they live in.
We basically need some Shina results, Kohistani, Baltit, Koshur Muslim results to get a relatively complete picture of the north. A few more Orumuris and Payashi would help. But I think if I get the rest of the Chitrali samples that will fill the gap for some of that.

passion
01-31-2018, 01:46 PM
Nope. I know a Kohistani girl and was hoping she would test, but she didn't. That would be a good group to test, especially based on the geography they live in.
We basically need some Shina results, Kohistani, Baltit, Koshur Muslim results to get a relatively complete picture of the north. A few more Orumuris and Payashi would help. But I think if I get the rest of the Chitrali samples that will fill the gap for some of that.

yeah also Balochistan Pashtuns are missing as well.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 01:53 PM
yeah also Balochistan Pashtuns are missing as well.

I have one Balochistani Pashtun result. A Kakar. I usually post him in the charts I make.

passion
01-31-2018, 01:55 PM
I have one Balochistani Pashtun result. A Kakar. I usually post him in the charts I make.

can you send me a link to that result ? harrapa

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 02:01 PM
can you send me a link to that result ? harrapa

Here you go. First result in the list. Scores like many Afghan Pashtuns.




ASC::BAL - Pashtun [Kakar]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Achakzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Amarkhel]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Barak]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Mohammadzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun/Tajik
ASC::AFG - Tajik [⅞ Qizilbash + ⅛ Iranian]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Ahmedi]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Ghazizadeh]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Korshidzada]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Motahedi]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Shah-Syed]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Yousefzada]
ASC::AFG, LAGHMAN - Pashtun/Tajik
ASC::AFG; HELMAND, Gereshk - Tajik [Naqwi]
ASC::AFG; KABUL/LOGAR - Pashtun [Sahak/Ahmadzai]
ASC::AFG; KANDAHAR - Pashtun [Ayubi]
ASC::AFG; KUNDUZ - Pashtun [Mohmand]


S-Indian
20.50
21.90
15.04
17.04
20.68
14.72
16.01
15.02
24.39
20.88
17.02
15.29
16.61
30.69
22.20
13.93
15.29
15.66
18.46


Baloch
37.14
33.91
32.91
36.04
35.32
34.19
34.14
29.87
35.14
32.20
37.79
35.12
35.90
36.95
34.92
31.68
35.12
36.50
34.19


Caucasian
21.07
17.51
19.39
22.65
20.30
26.43
21.55
25.10
18.23
16.56
22.21
19.43
22.95
14.00
20.96
21.54
19.43
23.44
20.39


NE-Euro
14.37
11.29
13.16
11.88
12.58
12.85
11.74
11.76
10.64
9.45
12.22
15.33
10.98
11.99
10.72
9.69
15.33
14.70
13.76


SE-Asian
0.00
1.31
2.21
1.49
1.31
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.21
0.99
0.00
0.17
0.00
0.00
0.11
0.00
0.05
0.00


Siberian
1.08
1.90
6.54
2.19
0.42
2.10
4.35
4.40
0.67
3.61
2.44
2.51
4.26
1.23
0.77
5.01
2.51
2.00
2.38


NE-Asian
0.28
5.23
2.35
0.00
2.51
1.19
4.69
6.29
3.91
6.81
0.59
1.72
1.85
0.00
1.53
6.00
1.72
1.35
2.55


Papuan
0.00
0.00
0.19
0.81
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.46
0.33
0.82
0.09
0.00
0.59
0.31
0.00
0.09
0.23
1.19


American
1.19
2.24
0.00
0.32
1.30
0.98
1.47
0.45
1.65
1.68
0.85
1.33
0.86
1.18
0.94
0.83
1.33
0.78
1.64


Beringian
1.16
1.03
1.80
1.72
0.73
1.08
0.85
0.00
1.06
1.22
0.25
0.78
1.64
1.92
1.85
0.00
0.78
0.70
0.45


Mediterranean
0.97
1.80
2.38
2.97
2.01
2.72
1.35
3.16
1.53
2.92
1.26
2.77
1.68
1.33
2.06
2.72
2.77
0.34
2.39


SW-Asian
2.17
1.57
4.03
2.89
2.85
3.15
3.84
3.94
1.56
3.86
3.26
5.28
3.01
0.09
3.62
6.46
5.28
4.24
2.58


San
0.05
0.27
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.18
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.12
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


E-African
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.48
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.82
0.00
0.00
0.00


Pygmy
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.07
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


W-African
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.59
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.27
0.29
0.34
0.08
0.00
0.00
1.21
0.34
0.00
0.00

MonkeyDLuffy
01-31-2018, 02:15 PM
I also talked with many Punjabis jat/khatris, they all had the same impression as "low caste" for tarkhans, but genetically, with few available samples, they seem no different from other Punjabi high castes. Tarkhans is the term for carpenter/lohar and in Haryana they are called "khatis".

Interestingly, tarkhan was also used a title by few central Asian tribes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan

tarkhan as carpenter/lohar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan

I think you are confusing Tarkhans with Khatis who are also known as Jhangir/jhangid/burhai. It is like saying Jats and Gujjars are same because they owe land. We don't intermarry with them at all and traditionally look down on Khatis. We have completely different Gotras/surnames. We share surnames rather with Rajputs/Khatris/Jats of punjab. While in hinduism we come under craftsmen, in Sikhism ramgarhias are actually second in power after jats. What's hilarious is that my gotra is a Jat gotra found in Haryana region and is very rare for ramgarhias.

On the point Tarkhans being descendants of brahmins, I doubt it now, since Tarkhans seem to score higher baloch than Brahmins in general, and the halogroups peaking in tarkhans are very different from Brahmins. R1a1a is actually a third in the line:

J-M172 (Highest)
J-M241 (Second Highest)
R-M417(Third Highest)
R-M207
T-M70
R-L266
R-M479
C-M356

Here's the correct link btw:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan_(Punjab)

kakiasumi
01-31-2018, 04:20 PM
Nope. I know a Kohistani girl and was hoping she would test, but she didn't. That would be a good group to test, especially based on the geography they live in.
We basically need some Shina results, Kohistani, Baltit, Koshur Muslim results to get a relatively complete picture of the north. A few more Orumuris and Payashi would help. But I think if I get the rest of the Chitrali samples that will fill the gap for some of that.

Have you tested some more Chitrali samples yourself or you talking about the samples which you had received from some other guy and had posted earlier. If you have tested new samples, It will be more useful if you post their ethnicity as well as location.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-31-2018, 04:24 PM
Here you go. First result in the list. Scores like many Afghan Pashtuns.




ASC::BAL - Pashtun [Kakar]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Achakzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Amarkhel]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Barak]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Mohammadzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun/Tajik
ASC::AFG - Tajik [⅞ Qizilbash + ⅛ Iranian]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Ahmedi]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Ghazizadeh]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Korshidzada]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Motahedi]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Shah-Syed]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Yousefzada]
ASC::AFG, LAGHMAN - Pashtun/Tajik
ASC::AFG; HELMAND, Gereshk - Tajik [Naqwi]
ASC::AFG; KABUL/LOGAR - Pashtun [Sahak/Ahmadzai]
ASC::AFG; KANDAHAR - Pashtun [Ayubi]
ASC::AFG; KUNDUZ - Pashtun [Mohmand]


S-Indian
20.50
21.90
15.04
17.04
20.68
14.72
16.01
15.02
24.39
20.88
17.02
15.29
16.61
30.69
22.20
13.93
15.29
15.66
18.46


Baloch
37.14
33.91
32.91
36.04
35.32
34.19
34.14
29.87
35.14
32.20
37.79
35.12
35.90
36.95
34.92
31.68
35.12
36.50
34.19


Caucasian
21.07
17.51
19.39
22.65
20.30
26.43
21.55
25.10
18.23
16.56
22.21
19.43
22.95
14.00
20.96
21.54
19.43
23.44
20.39


NE-Euro
14.37
11.29
13.16
11.88
12.58
12.85
11.74
11.76
10.64
9.45
12.22
15.33
10.98
11.99
10.72
9.69
15.33
14.70
13.76


SE-Asian
0.00
1.31
2.21
1.49
1.31
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.21
0.99
0.00
0.17
0.00
0.00
0.11
0.00
0.05
0.00


Siberian
1.08
1.90
6.54
2.19
0.42
2.10
4.35
4.40
0.67
3.61
2.44
2.51
4.26
1.23
0.77
5.01
2.51
2.00
2.38


NE-Asian
0.28
5.23
2.35
0.00
2.51
1.19
4.69
6.29
3.91
6.81
0.59
1.72
1.85
0.00
1.53
6.00
1.72
1.35
2.55


Papuan
0.00
0.00
0.19
0.81
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.46
0.33
0.82
0.09
0.00
0.59
0.31
0.00
0.09
0.23
1.19


American
1.19
2.24
0.00
0.32
1.30
0.98
1.47
0.45
1.65
1.68
0.85
1.33
0.86
1.18
0.94
0.83
1.33
0.78
1.64


Beringian
1.16
1.03
1.80
1.72
0.73
1.08
0.85
0.00
1.06
1.22
0.25
0.78
1.64
1.92
1.85
0.00
0.78
0.70
0.45


Mediterranean
0.97
1.80
2.38
2.97
2.01
2.72
1.35
3.16
1.53
2.92
1.26
2.77
1.68
1.33
2.06
2.72
2.77
0.34
2.39


SW-Asian
2.17
1.57
4.03
2.89
2.85
3.15
3.84
3.94
1.56
3.86
3.26
5.28
3.01
0.09
3.62
6.46
5.28
4.24
2.58


San
0.05
0.27
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.18
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.12
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


E-African
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.48
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.82
0.00
0.00
0.00


Pygmy
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.07
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


W-African
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.59
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.27
0.29
0.34
0.08
0.00
0.00
1.21
0.34
0.00
0.00



ASC::AFG - Tajik [Yousefzada Seems like an outlier. He seems more similar to Kashmiri muslim with less NE Asian.

pegasus
01-31-2018, 05:24 PM
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Yousefzada Seems like an outlier. He seems more similar to Kashmiri muslim with less NE Asian.

Yousefzada is no way Kashmiri surname, "zada" used for Tajiks generally , as well as "zadeh", though "zadeh" is more common with Iranians. He likely from Laghman or Eastern Kapisa. These people are just likely Persianized Dards. Velvet's family is from that region. Western Kapisa , Panjshir , Parwan are more like Ishkashimi Tajiks or Southern Pashtuns. This is in line with Khana's Arandu/Kunar results. My guess is Pashais will score in this range.

MonkeyDLuffy
01-31-2018, 05:43 PM
Yousefzada is no way Kashmiri surname, "zada" used for Tajiks generally , as well as "zadeh", though "zadeh" is more common with Iranians. He likely from Laghman or Eastern Kapisa. These people are just likely Persianized Dards. Velvet's family is from that region. Western Kapisa , Panjshir , Parwan are more like Ishkashimi Tajiks or Southern Pashtuns. This is in line with Khana's Arandu/Kunar results. My guess is Pashais will score in this range.

That's higher SI than a Jat or even Khatri.

pegasus
01-31-2018, 05:58 PM
That's higher SI than a Jat or even Khatri.

Sapporo has one sample like that posted. The Khatri samples definitely cluster with Arandu/Kunar results. Thats why I said a Persianized Dard, because it also supports a demic diffusion of people into the Northern Indus basin. His result is very similar to HRP0281.

If Khana can run him through Nmonte without getting the same pitfalls South Asians typically suffer, it would be better.

But yeah its not a regular Tajik thats fore sure.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 09:43 PM
@Reza94 Going through your results from Gedmatch, it seems to me that you have a lower caste pull, somewhat, as your top matches are Muslims from UP. It's not a significant pull, but your high SE Eurasian suggests that you might have recent mid to low caste ancestry. Here are my Harappa results for comparison, I am a Gujjar from Gujrat. Also, 37% South Indian on Harappa is quite a fair bit for Pakistanis. Do you have recent Muhajir ancestry? That might also be it! My South Indian is in the range of Jatt Sikhs and Khatris (27 to 31%), though, they have a bit higher NE Euro and around the same Caucasus component.

S-Indian 31.17
Baloch 43.71
Caucasian 10.80
NE-Euro 6.88
SE-Asian -
Siberian 0.82
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.66
American 1.16
Beringian 0.88
Mediterranean 0.26
SW-Asian 3.43
San -
E-African -
Pygmy 0.23
W-African -

Here are my Kurd's K=12 results:

STEPPE CULTURES 41.2%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 29.0%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 6.0%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 6.2%

ANCIENT FARMERS 37.3%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 0.0%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 5.6%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 20.6%

SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 14.6%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS 3.5%

AFRICAN 3.3%

You seem to have quite a fair bit of pull towards Central India.

Also, I can say that you likely don't have any Arab ancestry, or even ancestry from the Middle East. Most of your ancestry is native to South Asia. The only thing I would say is that your profile suggests more of an Onge pull as opposed to Iran_Neolithic or Steppe_EMBA. I can't tell you right off the bat, though.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 09:51 PM
So is there a specific test or calculator to find out which of these it would be? Or is it better to just compare with other Jatts,Rajputs,Gujjars,Brahmin etc.?

Yes, you can contact David Wesolowski of Eurogenes to calculate your Steppe+Onge+Iran Neolithic percentages. He charges a fair bit, though.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 09:52 PM
Have you tested some more Chitrali samples yourself or you talking about the samples which you had received from some other guy and had posted earlier. If you have tested new samples, It will be more useful if you post their ethnicity as well as location.

I'm talking about the ones from the other guy. If he doesn't send me some more raw data soon, I'm thinking to ship you a few kits. I'm just worried Customs will seize them in Pakistan and levy a high tax for you to receive them. Previously, I sent kits in the hands of people who are traveling to and from Pakistan, however, lately no one I know is going.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 09:56 PM
I also talked with many Punjabis jat/khatris, they all had the same impression as "low caste" for tarkhans, but genetically, with few available samples, they seem no different from other Punjabi high castes. Tarkhans is the term for carpenter/lohar and in Haryana they are called "khatis".

Interestingly, tarkhan was also used a title by few central Asian tribes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan

tarkhan as carpenter/lohar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhan

Can confirm, where I am from they are treated as mid-caste, not low-castes. But anyway, their genetic profile is basically the same as ours.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 09:57 PM
Sapporo has one sample like that posted. The Khatri samples definitely cluster with Arandu/Kunar results. Thats why I said a Persianized Dard, because it also supports a demic diffusion of people into the Northern Indus basin. His result is very similar to HRP0281.

If Khana can run him through Nmonte without getting the same pitfalls South Asians typically suffer, it would be better.

But yeah its not a regular Tajik thats fore sure.

I'll start up nMonte's again after I finish the Harrapa spreadsheet and PCA. I think I'll finish them by the end of this week, if I'm feeling enterprising. I still have to extract all the Gujurati, Tamil and Telugu samples and lord knows what else. I'm hunting for Kashmiri Pandit samples too.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 10:08 PM
@Reza94

Here are the South Indian averages for other upper caste Punjabi groups, per the Harappa database spreadsheet:

punjabi 32.79
punjabi-arain 30.78
punjabi-brahmin 33.76
punjabi-jatt-muslim 30.61
punjabi-jatt-sikh 27.94
punjabi-khatri 28.82
punjabi-ramgarhia 34.42 (Tarkhan)

The Chamar/Massali/Dalit samples from Lahore have around 55% South Indian on Harappa. Sikh Punjabis seem to have a few percentage points less than Pakistani Punjabis, the upper castes. Most Sikh Jatts score between 26 and 29%, Khatris between 27 and 31%, Tarkhans between 31 and 35%, and Pakistani Punjabis upper castes between 31 and 34%.

So, your pull is a bit odd to say the least.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 10:23 PM
Hey guys here are my GEDMatch results:

South Indian-36.9
Baloch-36.8
Caucasian-7.93
NE-Euro-7.34
SE Asian-0.46
Siberian-2.22
American-0.62
Beringian-0.27
Mediterranean-3.56
SW-Asian-3.85

I have not done my mtDNA as of yet.

Heir of Ghandhara: do you think some Rajputs would have changed their name to Syed to have a higher status?

Really appreciate the help guys

Edit: My motherís side is from Sialkot,Punjab but I believe their ancestry might go back to Kapurthala on the Indian side of Punjab

Side by side comparison:

You (Syed)

South Indian-36.9
Baloch-36.8
Caucasian-7.93
NE-Euro-7.34
SE Asian-0.46
Siberian-2.22
American-0.62
Beringian-0.27
Mediterranean-3.56
SW-Asian-3.85

Me (Gujjar)

S-Indian 31.17
Baloch 43.71
Caucasian 10.80
NE-Euro 6.88
Siberian 0.82
Papuan 0.66
American 1.16
Beringian 0.88
Mediterranean 0.26
SW-Asian 3.43
Pygmy 0.23

So yeah, you do seem to have more South Indian and less Baloch than myself. Can I see your Gedrosia K=9 ASI results?

Raza94
01-31-2018, 10:26 PM
@Reza94 Going through your results from Gedmatch, it seems to me that you have a lower caste pull, somewhat, as your top matches are Muslims from UP. It's not a significant pull, but your high SE Eurasian suggests that you might have recent mid to low caste ancestry. Here are my Harappa results for comparison, I am a Gujjar from Gujrat. Also, 37% South Indian on Harappa is quite a fair bit for Pakistanis. Do you have recent Muhajir ancestry? That might also be it! My South Indian is in the range of Jatt Sikhs and Khatris (27 to 31%), though, they have a bit higher NE Euro and around the same Caucasus component.

S-Indian 31.17
Baloch 43.71
Caucasian 10.80
NE-Euro 6.88
SE-Asian -
Siberian 0.82
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.66
American 1.16
Beringian 0.88
Mediterranean 0.26
SW-Asian 3.43
San -
E-African -
Pygmy 0.23
W-African -

Here are my Kurd's K=12 results:

STEPPE CULTURES 41.2%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 29.0%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 6.0%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 6.2%

ANCIENT FARMERS 37.3%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 0.0%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 5.6%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 20.6%

SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 14.6%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS 3.5%

AFRICAN 3.3%

You seem to have quite a fair bit of pull towards Central India.

Also, I can say that you likely don't have any Arab ancestry, or even ancestry from the Middle East. Most of your ancestry is native to South Asia. The only thing I would say is that your profile suggests more of an Onge pull as opposed to Iran_Neolithic or Steppe_EMBA. I can't tell you right off the bat, though.


The only thing that would be close to Muhajir is that I believe my paternal Grandmothers family had come from Kapurthala in East Punjab but that was a while back and I do vaguely recall an uncle saying that she was born in Amritsar but nothing really.

And yea looking at the percentages you gave for upper castes these results do seem a little off, any idea of what it could be?

And thank you for all the great insight as well!

EDIT: Yea I will do use that calculator right away!

bmoney
01-31-2018, 10:29 PM
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Yousefzada Seems like an outlier. He seems more similar to Kashmiri muslim with less NE Asian.

Wouldn't Kashmiri Muslims score much higher SI?

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 10:32 PM
Wouldn't Kashmiri Muslims score much higher SI?

No, they score 30 to 35 on average.

Raza94
01-31-2018, 10:34 PM
Side by side comparison:

You (Syed)

South Indian-36.9
Baloch-36.8
Caucasian-7.93
NE-Euro-7.34
SE Asian-0.46
Siberian-2.22
American-0.62
Beringian-0.27
Mediterranean-3.56
SW-Asian-3.85

Me (Gujjar)

S-Indian 31.17
Baloch 43.71
Caucasian 10.80
NE-Euro 6.88
Siberian 0.82
Papuan 0.66
American 1.16
Beringian 0.88
Mediterranean 0.26
SW-Asian 3.43
Pygmy 0.23

So yeah, you do seem to have more South Indian and less Baloch than myself. Can I see your Gedrosia K=9 ASI results?



21126


21127


2112821128

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 10:36 PM
The only thing that would be close to Muhajir is that I believe my paternal Grandmothers family had come from Kapurthala in East Punjab but that was a while back and I do vaguely recall an uncle saying that she was born in Amritsar but nothing really.

And yea looking at the percentages you gave for upper castes these results do seem a little off, any idea of what it could be?

And thank you for all the great insight as well!

EDIT: Yea I will do use that calculator right away!

Well, they're not that off. You're certainly not someone from a lower caste, that's for sure. And, personally, I can't say. It's tough to tell, but I would assume that you have a recent mid-caste ancestor in the past 3 to 5 generations or so. Hopefully, someone else here will be able to confirm it for you, but once I see your K9 ASI results, I'll be able to tell. In all of the calculators, you seem to score 6 to 9 South Asian/ASI percentage points higher than myself, and your closest matches are from Uttar Pradesh. So, perhaps you have some recent mid-caste ancestry, though I can't say.

Raza94
01-31-2018, 10:41 PM
Well, they're not that off. You're certainly not someone from a lower caste, that's for sure. And, personally, I can't say. It's tough to tell, but I would assume that you have a recent mid-caste ancestor in the past 3 to 5 generations or so. Hopefully, someone else here will be able to confirm it for you, but once I see your K9 ASI results, I'll be able to tell. In all of the calculators, you seem to score 6 to 9 South Asian/ASI percentage points higher than myself, and your closest matches are from Uttar Pradesh. So, perhaps you have some recent mid-caste ancestry, though I can't say.

Ive posted those results. Let me know what you think!

bmoney
01-31-2018, 10:42 PM
@Reza94

Here are the South Indian averages for other upper caste Punjabi groups, per the Harappa database spreadsheet:

punjabi 32.79
punjabi-arain 30.78
punjabi-brahmin 33.76
punjabi-jatt-muslim 30.61
punjabi-jatt-sikh 27.94
punjabi-khatri 28.82
punjabi-ramgarhia 34.42 (Tarkhan)

The Chamar/Massali/Dalit samples from Lahore have around 55% South Indian on Harappa. Sikh Punjabis seem to have a few percentage points less than Pakistani Punjabis, the upper castes. Most Sikh Jatts score between 26 and 29%, Khatris between 27 and 31%, Tarkhans between 31 and 35%, and Pakistani Punjabis upper castes between 31 and 34%.

So, your pull is a bit odd to say the least.

Bro youre exaggerating a bit

Hes nearly at the range of the Tarkhan average and miles away from the Chamar samples

Also notice his Med scores vs yours

Looks broadly Punjabi to me

bmoney
01-31-2018, 10:43 PM
No, they score 30 to 35 on average.

thats still 5 to 10% higher SI

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 10:44 PM
21126


21127


2112821128

Mine for comparison:

E_Asian 7.14
Early_Neolithic_Farmers 4.16
SW_Asian 8.82
Ancestral_South_Indian 13.79
Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 7.70
WHG 4.06
Siberian_E_Asian 2.74
Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 51.50
W_African 0.10

Adding up the Southeast Asian+Ancestral South Indian, I get: 20.93
Yours: 23.51

So, there is a difference; albeit, minor. I can't say from these results alone, but I can say that you have a bit more Onge like ancestry, though still within the vicinity of upper castes.

Please email David Wesolowski at: [email protected] He can help you out, ask for Steppe K7 and Fst 4 tests, as well as a PCA plot. I'll let him know you're interested, just let me know if you are. He can model you and determine your Steppe proportions, as well as Iran Neolithic and Onge(e) ancestry.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 10:45 PM
Bro youre exaggerating a bit

Hes nearly at the range of the Tarkhan average and miles away from the Chamar samples

Also notice his Med scores vs yours

Looks broadly Punjabi to me

Never said he was lower caste, just saying there's somewhat of a pull here.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 10:47 PM
thats still 5 to 10% higher SI

True, lol.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 10:49 PM
21126


21127


2112821128

I can't wait to plot you on PCAs and things, you have such interesting numbers.
I can tell you this right now, you are not going to cluster with anyone else. You are going to be near a major cluster but pulled away towards another. That's going to be cool to see.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 10:54 PM
I can't wait to plot you on PCAs and things, you have such interesting numbers.
I can tell you this right now, you are not going to cluster with anyone else. You are going to be near a major cluster but pulled away towards another. That's going to be cool to see.

So, my suspicions were correct? He does seem to have a pull towards Central Indians. Now, how did he get there is the question? Perhaps, an Iran-like population mixing with a low caste population. I think this might be the case, and he may have recent Near Eastern ancestry from Iran and surrounds.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 11:01 PM
So, my suspicions were correct? He does seem to have a pull towards Central Indians. Now, how did he get there is the question? Perhaps, an Iran-like population mixing with a low caste population. I think this might be the case, and he may have recent Near Eastern ancestry from Iran and surrounds.

I don't want to jump to any conclusion before I plot and run him on a few things. I get a better sense when I'm starting at all the numbers at once.

Sapporo
01-31-2018, 11:03 PM
I guess this phenomenon fits well only for Brahmins throughout the India (apart from north west), we don't have enough samples for other communities to conclude anything impeccable. For example, on Harappa ancestry, a rajasthani Rajput SI is 45% while a Rajasthani jat SI is below 30% but rajputs in rajputana enjoy a higher social status than jatts. Though , despite claiming the higher status, rajputs are heavily marginalized in few areas of rajasthan , lost all their lands and lagging behind other farming communities economically.

baniyas and kayasthas of UP/Bihar with a high social status will exceed in SI in comparison of yadavs classified as sudras, yadavs SI should be same as rajputs. probably, yadavs, gujjar and jats, termed as degraded Kshatriyas by many historians and classified as sudras in Rajput/brahmin dominated land, will not exceed in SI from rajputs of that region. In north west, they even may fair better than other high castes.

You have to be very careful when making statements about sample sizes of 1-2 individuals. There are only 2 Rajasthani Jat samples and I've only seen their scores on Harappa (which is extremely outdated) since we don't have access to their raw data. As for Rajasthani Rajputs, I believe there is only 1 individual sample and since the Rajput status doesn't necessarily match up with any specific admixture profile, there might be some diversity in admixture among Rajasthani Rajputs with some pulling closer toward Jats and Brahmins while others being more southeastern shifted. Currently, we also only have have 1 Rajasthani Brahmin score as well as one other 1/2 Rajasthani Brahmin and 1/2 West UP Brahmin sample. Unfortunately, they're just Harappa scores and we don't have access to their raw data.




I know I've seen a Khetrani result before, but I can't remember off the top of my head how he clustered.

He scored more like the HGDP Pathan than the HGDP Baloch. Around 40% Baloch and 20% Caucasus I believe.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 11:06 PM
You have to be very careful when making statements about sample sizes of 1-2 individuals. There are only 2 Rajasthani Jat samples and I've only seen their scores on Harappa (which is extremely outdated) since we don't have access to their raw data. As for Rajasthani Rajputs, I believe there is only 1 individual sample and since the Rajput status doesn't necessarily match up with any specific admixture profile, there might be some diversity in admixture among Rajasthani Rajputs with some pulling closer toward Jats and Brahmins while others being more southeastern shifted. Currently, we also only have have 1 Rajasthani Brahmin score as well as one other 1/2 Rajasthani Brahmin and 1/2 West UP Brahmin sample. Unfortunately, they're just Harappa scores and we don't have access to their raw data.

Good points, how much South Indian did you score on Harappa? Have you done any of David's tests?

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 11:07 PM
I don't want to jump to any conclusion before I plot and run him on a few things. I get a better sense when I'm starting at all the numbers at once.

Alright bro, good luck! Best wishes with your analysis of his results.

Raza94
01-31-2018, 11:09 PM
I can't wait to plot you on PCAs and things, you have such interesting numbers.
I can tell you this right now, you are not going to cluster with anyone else. You are going to be near a major cluster but pulled away towards another. That's going to be cool to see.

Damn bro you're getting me really excited as well. I cant wait to see it!

Raza94
01-31-2018, 11:10 PM
Mine for comparison:

E_Asian 7.14
Early_Neolithic_Farmers 4.16
SW_Asian 8.82
Ancestral_South_Indian 13.79
Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 7.70
WHG 4.06
Siberian_E_Asian 2.74
Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 51.50
W_African 0.10

Adding up the Southeast Asian+Ancestral South Indian, I get: 20.93
Yours: 23.51

So, there is a difference; albeit, minor. I can't say from these results alone, but I can say that you have a bit more Onge like ancestry, though still within the vicinity of upper castes.

Please email David Wesolowski at: [email protected] He can help you out, ask for Steppe K7 and Fst 4 tests, as well as a PCA plot. I'll let him know you're interested, just let me know if you are. He can model you and determine your Steppe proportions, as well as Iran Neolithic and Onge(e) ancestry.

I am definitely interested! Any idea how much it would cost?

Reza
01-31-2018, 11:13 PM
All this high mid lower caste talk based on SI percentages on an outdated calculator seems rather facile and distracting.

I may be speaking out of place, as I really don't understand the Punjabi biradari system well, but in the context of non-hindus outside the varna system, is it really the right term to use especially when looking at admixture calculators?

Raza94's paper lineage is syed on both sides as far as he is aware. In Muslim communities, it sits at the top of the socioeconomic class system. We haven't sampled enough syeds from each ethnicity to understand what the intra group variability is. He may well have 'syed' ancestry from other parts of the subcontinent or indeed outside. I say 'syed' as it's very unlikely to be a true alawi lineage. Especially his L657.

Similarly, this idea that a tribe that has less SI must therefore be higher caste is fraught with complications. Today's social pecking order varies from region to region, as others have explained, and the idea that a thousand years ago, or even 300 years ago, these same groups would have held the same social standing is highly unlikely, outside of the varna system.

In the NW of the subcontinent, especially in non Hindu societies with less recent endogamy, I'm sure geography and population micromovements / adoption of tribal identifies probably play a bigger role in determining autosomal make up than how upper or mid caste you are in today's society.

Perhaps it would be better to refer to more steppe, Baloch type or SI shifted populations and tribes than upper and low caste for non varna groups?

Clearly, outside of the NW, brahmins, sitting at the top of the varna system, are very clearly delineated from other local population groups. Probably as a result of caste endogamy from a smaller population founder group.

But asides from the above, I would have thought geography with ethnicity plays a far bigger role in the population differences.

My tuppence as an outsider. Please feel free to educate me otherwise!

Sapporo
01-31-2018, 11:27 PM
Here you go. First result in the list. Scores like many Afghan Pashtuns.




ASC::BAL - Pashtun [Kakar]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Achakzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Amarkhel]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Barak]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun [Mohammadzai]
ASC::AFG - Pashtun/Tajik
ASC::AFG - Tajik [⅞ Qizilbash + ⅛ Iranian]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Ahmedi]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Ghazizadeh]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Korshidzada]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Motahedi]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Shah-Syed]
ASC::AFG - Tajik [Yousefzada]
ASC::AFG, LAGHMAN - Pashtun/Tajik
ASC::AFG; HELMAND, Gereshk - Tajik [Naqwi]
ASC::AFG; KABUL/LOGAR - Pashtun [Sahak/Ahmadzai]
ASC::AFG; KANDAHAR - Pashtun [Ayubi]
ASC::AFG; KUNDUZ - Pashtun [Mohmand]


S-Indian
20.50
21.90
15.04
17.04
20.68
14.72
16.01
15.02
24.39
20.88
17.02
15.29
16.61
30.69
22.20
13.93
15.29
15.66
18.46


Baloch
37.14
33.91
32.91
36.04
35.32
34.19
34.14
29.87
35.14
32.20
37.79
35.12
35.90
36.95
34.92
31.68
35.12
36.50
34.19


Caucasian
21.07
17.51
19.39
22.65
20.30
26.43
21.55
25.10
18.23
16.56
22.21
19.43
22.95
14.00
20.96
21.54
19.43
23.44
20.39


NE-Euro
14.37
11.29
13.16
11.88
12.58
12.85
11.74
11.76
10.64
9.45
12.22
15.33
10.98
11.99
10.72
9.69
15.33
14.70
13.76


SE-Asian
0.00
1.31
2.21
1.49
1.31
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.21
0.99
0.00
0.17
0.00
0.00
0.11
0.00
0.05
0.00


Siberian
1.08
1.90
6.54
2.19
0.42
2.10
4.35
4.40
0.67
3.61
2.44
2.51
4.26
1.23
0.77
5.01
2.51
2.00
2.38


NE-Asian
0.28
5.23
2.35
0.00
2.51
1.19
4.69
6.29
3.91
6.81
0.59
1.72
1.85
0.00
1.53
6.00
1.72
1.35
2.55


Papuan
0.00
0.00
0.19
0.81
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.46
0.33
0.82
0.09
0.00
0.59
0.31
0.00
0.09
0.23
1.19


American
1.19
2.24
0.00
0.32
1.30
0.98
1.47
0.45
1.65
1.68
0.85
1.33
0.86
1.18
0.94
0.83
1.33
0.78
1.64


Beringian
1.16
1.03
1.80
1.72
0.73
1.08
0.85
0.00
1.06
1.22
0.25
0.78
1.64
1.92
1.85
0.00
0.78
0.70
0.45


Mediterranean
0.97
1.80
2.38
2.97
2.01
2.72
1.35
3.16
1.53
2.92
1.26
2.77
1.68
1.33
2.06
2.72
2.77
0.34
2.39


SW-Asian
2.17
1.57
4.03
2.89
2.85
3.15
3.84
3.94
1.56
3.86
3.26
5.28
3.01
0.09
3.62
6.46
5.28
4.24
2.58


San
0.05
0.27
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.18
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.12
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


E-African
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.48
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.82
0.00
0.00
0.00


Pygmy
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.07
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00


W-African
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.59
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.27
0.29
0.34
0.08
0.00
0.00
1.21
0.34
0.00
0.00



khana, you might want to add some disclaimers for a few individuals. The 3rd individual (Amarkhel) is 7/8 Afghan Ghilzai Pashtun & 1/8 Hazara (HRP0326). That is what accounts for the heavily inflated East Eurasian numbers (10%+). It is possible that their Ghilzai side just happens to also score slightly elevated East Eurasian admixture but I feel the 1/8 Hazara ancestry is more likely responsible. Since inheritance is random, it's hard to say how their admixture profile was effected other than the obvious boosted East Eurasian ancestry from their Hazara ancestor.

The 2nd individual [Achakzai] is someone Sein originally found on 23andMe. They are predominately Achakzai but there is likely some Tajik ancestry down the line. I was informed they might have very distant Kashmiri ancestry but the East Eurasian ancestry they're scoring is more easily explained by Tajik admixture.

The last individual aka Pashtun [Mohmand] has a Nuristani grandparent I believe. She is a forum member on here. Although, mostly inactive these days.

bmoney
01-31-2018, 11:29 PM
All this high mid lower caste talk based on SI percentages on an outdated calculator seems rather facile and distracting.

I may be speaking out of place, as I really don't understand the Punjabi biradari system well, but in the context of non-hindus outside the varna system, is it really the right term to use especially when looking at admixture calculators?

Raza94's paper lineage is syed on both sides as far as he is aware. In Muslim communities, it sits at the top of the socioeconomic class system. We haven't sampled enough syeds from each ethnicity to understand what the intra group variability is. He may well have 'syed' ancestry from other parts of the subcontinent or indeed outside. I say 'syed' as it's very unlikely to be a true alawi lineage. Especially his L657.

Similarly, this idea that a tribe that has less SI must therefore be higher caste is fraught with complications. Today's social pecking order varies from region to region, as others have explained, and the idea that a thousand years ago, or even 300 years ago, these same groups would have held the same social standing is highly unlikely, outside of the varna system.

In the NW of the subcontinent, especially in non Hindu societies with less recent endogamy, I'm sure geography and population micromovements / adoption of tribal identifies probably play a bigger role in determining autosomal make up than how upper or mid caste you are in today's society.

Perhaps it would be better to refer to more steppe, Baloch type or SI shifted populations and tribes than upper and low caste for non varna groups?

Clearly, outside of the NW, brahmins, sitting at the top of the varna system, are very clearly delineated from other local population groups. Probably as a result of caste endogamy from a smaller population founder group.

But asides from the above, I would have thought geography with ethnicity plays a far bigger role in the population differences.

My tuppence as an outsider. Please feel free to educate me otherwise!

broadly correct about geography however I will note

- NW groups do practice endogamy at high levels due to a tribal system despite being largely avarna as you pointed out
- Low castes - Chamars in Punjab are clearly very distant on oracles vs other biradari groups who cluster similarly on SI levels - caste loosely correlates with SI in Punjab
- Geography does matter as you have mentioned, but within geography caste plays a huge role
- Caste plays a huge role in SA period - Paniya people live within 150km of my ancestral homeland - They score 84% SI vs my 46%

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 11:34 PM
I am definitely interested! Any idea how much it would cost?

20 to 25 USD.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 11:36 PM
All this high mid lower caste talk based on SI percentages on an outdated calculator seems rather facile and distracting.

I may be speaking out of place, as I really don't understand the Punjabi biradari system well, but in the context of non-hindus outside the varna system, is it really the right term to use especially when looking at admixture calculators?

Raza94's paper lineage is syed on both sides as far as he is aware. In Muslim communities, it sits at the top of the socioeconomic class system. We haven't sampled enough syeds from each ethnicity to understand what the intra group variability is. He may well have 'syed' ancestry from other parts of the subcontinent or indeed outside. I say 'syed' as it's very unlikely to be a true alawi lineage. Especially his L657.

Similarly, this idea that a tribe that has less SI must therefore be higher caste is fraught with complications. Today's social pecking order varies from region to region, as others have explained, and the idea that a thousand years ago, or even 300 years ago, these same groups would have held the same social standing is highly unlikely, outside of the varna system.

In the NW of the subcontinent, especially in non Hindu societies with less recent endogamy, I'm sure geography and population micromovements / adoption of tribal identifies probably play a bigger role in determining autosomal make up than how upper or mid caste you are in today's society.

Perhaps it would be better to refer to more steppe, Baloch type or SI shifted populations and tribes than upper and low caste for non varna groups?

Clearly, outside of the NW, brahmins, sitting at the top of the varna system, are very clearly delineated from other local population groups. Probably as a result of caste endogamy from a smaller population founder group.

But asides from the above, I would have thought geography with ethnicity plays a far bigger role in the population differences.

My tuppence as an outsider. Please feel free to educate me otherwise!

You've made good points, but see this: http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2016/11/caste-is-in-genes.html

What a shocker! ;)

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 11:38 PM
broadly correct about geography however I will note

- NW groups do practice endogamy at high levels due to a tribal system despite being largely avarna as you pointed out
- Low castes - Chamars in Punjab are clearly very distant on oracles vs other biradari groups who cluster similarly on SI levels - caste loosely correlates with SI in Punjab
- Geography does matter as you have mentioned, but within geography caste plays a huge role
- Caste plays a huge role in SA period - Paniya people live within 150km of my ancestral homeland - They score 84% SI vs my 46%

Well said, I have an even better example. Where my family is from there are Massalis/Chammars there, and they look like they would score 60 to 65% ASI! So, not only within a few hundred KM, but also, even within the same village or town. This is remarkable stuff, indeed.

Sapporo
01-31-2018, 11:47 PM
@Reza94

Here are the South Indian averages for other upper caste Punjabi groups, per the Harappa database spreadsheet:

punjabi 32.79
punjabi-arain 30.78
punjabi-brahmin 33.76
punjabi-jatt-muslim 30.61
punjabi-jatt-sikh 27.94
punjabi-khatri 28.82
punjabi-ramgarhia 34.42 (Tarkhan)

The Chamar/Massali/Dalit samples from Lahore have around 55% South Indian on Harappa. Sikh Punjabis seem to have a few percentage points less than Pakistani Punjabis, the upper castes. Most Sikh Jatts score between 26 and 29%, Khatris between 27 and 31%, Tarkhans between 31 and 35%, and Pakistani Punjabis upper castes between 31 and 34%.

So, your pull is a bit odd to say the least.

You have to be careful when pulling numbers from Harappa Ancestry Project:

1. Zack's admixture calculator (the non Gedmatch Harappa) was constantly changing as he added new participants to his database. Around HRP0240 and afterwards is when you start seeing individuals get very noisy results with lots of exotic components (Papuan, Berinigian, Pygmy, San, etc.) that they don't score on the Gedmatch Harappa calculator. In essence, you can't directly compare Harappa Gedmatch results to the admixture scores ran by Zack himself. Nor, is it fair to compare individuals between HRP0001-HRP0240 with those past HRP0240.

2. Harappa is an outdated calculator. It's a good base calculator for South Asians to compare their results with one another but I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it.

3. As noted above, you can't compare people's Gedmatch Harappa scores with those from the Harappa database spreadsheet. They were run using different methods. Zack's personal run versus an even more outdated version of Harappa he uploaded to Gedmatch.

4. Most Jatt Sikhs score around 28-29% SI on Gedmatch Harappa and around 27.5-28.5 on Zack's run.

Note: I think Reza is right to some extent. Most of these "upper castes" like Jatts, Gujjars, Arains, Khatris, Tarkhans, Kamboj, etc. aren't traditional upper castes such as Brahmins or Kshatriya. Some like Jatts might be labeled as Vaishya or Shudras (hardly what I would call "high caste"). I've heard sometimes Khatris are thrown into the Kshatriya caste but they're a mercantile community and not militant/warriors like Rajputs are "supposed to be" per the Hindu varna system. The only real upper castes in Punjab are Brahmins and Rajputs. Rather these "other" groups are just "non-dalits" that fall outside of the traditional 4 caste Hindu varna system. Depending on the region and their population numbers, they are atop of the society's social hierarchy but that doesn't really make them upper caste. I'd also note that most of these communities aren't really found in great numbers outside the Northwestern fringes of the subcontinent (Punjab, Jammu & Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan and Western UP + Pakistan).

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 11:48 PM
khana, you might want to add some disclaimers for a few individuals. The 3rd individual (Amarkhel) is 7/8 Afghan Ghilzai Pashtun & 1/8 Hazara (HRP0326). That is what accounts for the heavily inflated East Eurasian numbers (10%+). It is possible that their Ghilzai side just happens to also score slightly elevated East Eurasian admixture but I feel the 1/8 Hazara ancestry is more likely responsible. Since inheritance is random, it's hard to say how their admixture profile was effected other than the obvious boosted East Eurasian ancestry from their Hazara ancestor.

The 2nd individual [Achakzai] is someone Sein originally found on 23andMe. They are predominately Achakzai but there is likely some Tajik ancestry down the line. I was informed they might have very distant Kashmiri ancestry but the East Eurasian ancestry they're scoring is more easily explained by Tajik admixture.

The last individual aka Pashtun [Mohmand] has a Nuristani grandparent I believe. She is a forum member on here. Although, mostly inactive these days.

Yeah I have to clean up the Afghan result section, it's why I don't post them too much. Rukha sent me a bunch of corrections and new kits, but it's in an old PM and I'll have to search for it. I didn't add her Nurstani part purposefully, because it's kind of identifying for people who know her posts and she wished to be a little more anonymous in the charts. But yes, that's her results. I didn't know Amarkhel was part Hazara, I was going to label him [Harzara outlier] based on his results but I wasn't sure, I'll edit that. I didn't know about the Achakzai either, so I'll change that. Thanks for double-checking. I will need the help to review these sheets.

I'll be consulting with you over a bunch of results before I debut the spreadsheet... so far 720 results run... so it's going to be big. I'm pretty sure you know the lay of the land when it comes to a bunch of Punjabi results at the very least, so I'm going to need to your help confirming some and curating others.

Xehanort
01-31-2018, 11:56 PM
You have to be careful when pulling numbers from Harappa Ancestry Project:

1. Zack's admixture calculator (the non Gedmatch Harappa) was constantly changing as he added new participants to his database. Around HRP0240 and afterwards is when you start seeing individuals get very noisy results with lots of exotic components (Papuan, Berinigian, Pygmy, San, etc.) that they don't score on the Gedmatch Harappa calculator. In essence, you can't directly compare Harappa Gedmatch results to the admixture scores ran by Zack himself. Nor, is it fair to compare individuals between HRP0001 with those past HRP0240.

2. Harappa is an outdated calculator. It's a good base calculator for South Asians to compare their results with one another but I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it.

3. As noted above, you can't compare people's Gedmatch Harappa scores with those from the Harappa database spreadsheet. They were run using different methods. Zack's personal run versus an even more outdated version of Harappa he uploaded to Gedmatch.

4. Most Jatt Sikhs score around 28-29% SI on Gedmatch Harappa and around 27.5-28.5 on Zack's run.

Note: I think Reza is right to some extent. Most of these "upper castes" like Jatts, Gujjars, Arains, Khatris, Tarkhans, Kamboj, etc. aren't traditional upper castes such as Brahmins or Kshatriya. Some like Jatts might be labeled as Vaishya or Shudras (hardly what I would call "high caste"). I've heard sometimes Khatris are thrown into the Kshatriya caste but they're a mercantile community and not militant/warriors like Rajputs are "supposed to be" per the Hindu varna system. The only real upper castes in Punjab are Brahmins and Rajputs. Rather these "other" groups are just "non-dalits" that fall outside of the traditional 4 caste Hindu varna system. Depending on the region and their population numbers, they are atop of the society's social hierarchy but that doesn't really make them upper caste. I'd also note that most of these communities aren't really found in great numbers outside the Northwestern fringes of the subcontinent (Punjab, Jammu & Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan and Western UP + Pakistan).

Alright, you made some excellent points, but for Raza, all of the other calculators suggest elevated South Indian/ASI admixture. Now, we cannot jump to conclusions, but even on Kurd's K=12 calculator he got around 27% SE Eurasian, which is very high and fairly score to that one Chammar/Brahmin member we had, who scored 33%. So, I just hypothesized based on what I saw, there's nothing more to it.

khanabadoshi
01-31-2018, 11:57 PM
You have to be careful when pulling numbers from Harappa Ancestry Project:

1. Zack's admixture calculator (the non Gedmatch Harappa) was constantly changing as he added new participants to his database. Around HRP0240 and afterwards is when you start seeing individuals get very noisy results with lots of exotic components (Papuan, Berinigian, Pygmy, San, etc.) that they don't score on the Gedmatch Harappa calculator. In essence, you can't directly compare Harappa Gedmatch results to the admixture scores ran by Zack himself. Nor, is it fair to compare individuals between HRP0001 with those past HRP0240.

2. Harappa is an outdated calculator. It's a good base calculator for South Asians to compare their results with one another but I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it.

3. As noted above, you can't compare people's Gedmatch Harappa scores with those from the Harappa database spreadsheet. They were run using different methods. Zack's personal run versus an even more outdated version of Harappa he uploaded to Gedmatch.

4. Most Jatt Sikhs score around 28-29% SI on Gedmatch Harappa and around 27.5-28.5 on Zack's run.

Note: I think Reza is right to some extent. Most of these "upper castes" like Jatts, Gujjars, Arains, Khatris, Tarkhans, Kamboj, etc. aren't traditional upper castes such as Brahmins or Kshatriya. Some like Jatts might be labeled as Vaishya or Shudras (hardly what I would call "high caste"). I've heard sometimes Khatris are thrown into the Kshatriya caste but they're a mercantile community and not militant/warriors like Rajputs are "supposed to be" per the Hindu varna system. The only real upper castes in Punjab are Brahmins and Rajputs. Rather these "other" groups are just "non-dalits" that fall outside of the traditional 4 caste Hindu varna system. Depending on the region and their population numbers, they are atop of the society's social hierarchy but that doesn't really make them upper caste. I'd also note that most of these communities aren't really found in great numbers outside the Northwestern fringes of the subcontinent (Punjab, Jammu & Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan and Western UP + Pakistan).

I noticed the gedmatch averages and oracles and Zack's runs don't align. It's for this reason I re-ran all the HGDP samples. Even the PJL ones even though Everest already ran them, just to be sure.

And yes, it's so outdated; but I'm starting with this calculator anyways, because it's a classic and everyone likes to refer to it over and over. Even though, personally, I hate referring to Harappa. But I think it's good to make as complete a reference as possible for it.

Reza
01-31-2018, 11:57 PM
Good points but I wasn't denying the existence of caste based autosomal differences in the entire subcontinent per se. It's pretty well established, with geography playing a large role as well. And the distinction of scheduled tribe vs low caste, perhaps it's a matter of semantics but with Paniyas, I would have considered them a different ethnicity in that sense much as I would Austroasiatic tribes in Bengal.

I was focusing more on the NW ie Punjab and perhaps Sindh, that for tribes existing outside of the varna system, whether high and low caste is truly an appropriate term. I don't really know what makes arains or jatts high caste if they exist outside of the varna system? Their low SI? Otherwise, in modern times, they are higher up on the socioeconomic ladder. Not sure that necessarily means anything more?

Perhaps I mean to focus on the subtleties of the clear autosomal differences that do exist. Why are Arains more Baloch shifted? Were they farmers that moved up from the SW? Why are Jatts seemingly more steppe shifted?

And indeed, why do chamars score such high SI? Are they 'more native' to Punjab or in fact the opposite? That observation does in fact go against my argument, of caste being less important autosomally than tribal identity in the NW / Pakistan. What are people's thoughts?

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 12:07 AM
Good points but I wasn't denying the existence of caste based autosomal differences in the entire subcontinent per se. It's pretty well established, with geography playing a large role as well. And the distinction of scheduled tribe vs low caste, perhaps it's a matter of semantics but with Paniyas, I would have considered them a different ethnicity in that sense much as I would Austroasiatic tribes in Bengal.

I was focusing more on the NW ie Punjab and perhaps Sindh, that for tribes existing outside of the varna system, whether high and low caste is truly an appropriate term. I don't really know what makes arains or jatts high caste if they exist outside of the varna system? Their low SI? Otherwise, in modern times, they are higher up on the socioeconomic ladder. Not sure that necessarily means anything more?

Perhaps I mean to focus on the subtleties of the clear autosomal differences that do exist. Why are Arains more Baloch shifted? Were they farmers that moved up from the SW? Why are Jatts seemingly more steppe shifted?

And indeed, why do chamars score such high SI? Are they 'more native' to Punjab or in fact the opposite? That observation does in fact go against my argument, of caste being less important autosomally than tribal identity in the NW / Pakistan. What are people's thoughts?

I think there's something to your point about Arains being migrants from the Southwest. I myself am a Gujjar, but my genetic profile is very similar to Arains, in the sense that I have a lot of Iran Neolithic ancestry, which is even higher than my Steppe proportion, and this usually is not supposed to be the case.

David broke me down a while back, and in each of the runs I averaged 40 to 47% Iran Neolithic ancestry, 32 to 41% Steppe ancestry (52% with the Sarmatian Pokrovka sample, though), and 18 to 21% Dai/Onge/ASI whatever you want to call it. He basically said how my results were a bit odd as most other groups like Brahmins show more Onge and Steppe ancestry, whereas Jatts score about the same Onge and much more Steppe ancestry, but all of these groups show less Iran Neolithic ancestry (5 to 20% less). Therefore, this leads me to conclude that I have recent Baloch-like ancestry. Now, how it got there, I haven't got a clue. What you propose might have something to do with it, I don't know and can't say.

Chamars are basically Shudras. So, that's why. Some cluster with Tamils as well.

khanabadoshi
02-01-2018, 12:14 AM
Good points but I wasn't denying the existence of caste based autosomal differences in the entire subcontinent per se. It's pretty well established, with geography playing a large role as well. And the distinction of scheduled tribe vs low caste, perhaps it's a matter of semantics but with Paniyas, I would have considered them a different ethnicity in that sense much as I would Austroasiatic tribes in Bengal.

I was focusing more on the NW ie Punjab and perhaps Sindh, that for tribes existing outside of the varna system, whether high and low caste is truly an appropriate term. I don't really know what makes arains or jatts high caste if they exist outside of the varna system? Their low SI? Otherwise, in modern times, they are higher up on the socioeconomic ladder. Not sure that necessarily means anything more?

Perhaps I mean to focus on the subtleties of the clear autosomal differences that do exist. Why are Arains more Baloch shifted? Were they farmers that moved up from the SW? Why are Jatts seemingly more steppe shifted?

And indeed, why do chamars score such high SI? Are they 'more native' to Punjab or in fact the opposite? That observation does in fact go against my argument, of caste being less important autosomally than tribal identity in the NW / Pakistan. What are people's thoughts?

I dislike using the high-caste term just because people have low SI; reality is a lot of these groups were either outside the Varna system or low-caste when/if they were apart of it. By calling them high-caste it perpetuates that high-caste people can be genetically shown to be high-caste -- when in reality the highest caste people are Brahmins and almost all of them have more SI than all these people who've been low-caste or avarna for all of history. So SI is not what we should be looking at for caste-differentiation, even though there is some correlation. If SI is the basis of high-caste, then pretty much all of Pakistan from the Chiprasi to the PM is higher caste than a Brahmin.... this is just emphatically not true. I'd rather the record show things in a truer sense, then retroactively start calling these people high-caste. Let's be real, no one thinks or have ever thought that Haranya Jatts are the epitome of the social order in South Asia.... they are not high-caste and have never been (and when we speak Genetics, what is relevant is the social order of yesteryear... not now) -- yet they genetically unique in the pecking order. It goes against the high-caste narrative if anyone non-Brahmin is "more Aryan", "less Dravidian" than them, and yet a crap ton of people are. Most of us are low-caste or avarna, let's not pretend otherwise.

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 12:41 AM
I dislike using the high-caste term just because people have low SI; reality is a lot of these groups were either outside the Varna system or low-caste when/if they were apart of it. By calling them high-caste it perpetuates that high-caste people can be genetically shown to be high-caste -- when in reality the highest caste people are Brahmins and almost all of them have more SI than all these people who've been low-caste or avarna for all of history. So SI is not what we should be looking at for caste-differentiation, even though there is some correlation. If SI is the basis of high-caste, then pretty much all of Pakistan from the Chiprasi to the PM is higher caste than a Brahmin.... this is just emphatically not true. I'd rather the record show things in a truer sense, then retroactively start calling these people high-caste. Let's be real, no one thinks or have ever thought that Haranya Jatts are the epitome of the social order in South Asia.... they are not high-caste and have never been (and when we speak Genetics, what is relevant is the social order of yesteryear... not now) -- yet they genetically unique in the pecking order. It goes against the high-caste narrative if anyone non-Brahmin is "more Aryan", "less Dravidian" than them, and yet a crap ton of people are. Most of us are low-caste or avarna, let's not pretend otherwise.

True, but lets not forget how that Steppe ancestry got there in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire

bol_nat
02-01-2018, 12:56 AM
In Kharian villages syeds are known as shah or "shahnes" in crude local punjabi. They were granted agriculture lands in villages out of respect so one can find shah/syed families in every village but they don't have villages where they make majority like jatts, gujjars, malik awans and rajputs. In real life people in rural areas do not doubt their claims for one moment though on internet its different.

Raza94
02-01-2018, 01:18 AM
20 to 25 USD.

Awesome I will email him shortly and if you could let him know that would be great!

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 01:25 AM
Awesome I will email him shortly and if you could let him know that would be great!

Okay, have done so.

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 01:44 AM
Awesome I will email him shortly and if you could let him know that would be great!

Don't worry, he won't charge more than 25 USD for the entire process, it's well worth the investment, just ask Khana.

bol_nat
02-01-2018, 02:12 AM
First a disclaimer: the caste system in Pakistani Punjab is an interpretation of the Hindu caste system but has its own trends due to the arrival of new faiths. Okay to understand Western or Pakistani Punjab, we will first have to understand it's sub-regions. It has the following 4-5 depending on who you ask:

1) Central Punjab and this is the region most like Eastern Punjab.
2) Pothwar that includes the modern-day districts of Rawalpindi(minus Murree and Kotli Sattian), Jhelum, Attock, Chakwal and all regions north of Khushab to Quaidabad road in the Khushab district.
3) South Punjab whose boundaries are debatable but is centered around Multan to Sahiwal region
4) West Punjab is all regions west of Indus plus all regions in the Sind Sagar Doab up until the boundary with Pothwar.
5) Also maybe the Bahawalpur state if you're feeling enterprising.

Easiest is West Punjab where the social elite is mostly Syed, Baloch(like the Legharis for example) and tribes like Tiwana. After that come the Jatts, Gujjars and the mercantile classes.

Pothwar is also pretty straightforward with top slot traditionally occupied by Janjuas and Gakkhars, then Syeds, then other Rajas and Awans and then Jatts and Gujjars and other mercantile classes.

South Punjab I am not super sure about but here too the top slots are occupied by Syeds, then Johiyas and Kharrals, Jatts like the Sials also find some prominence here but Gujjars and the Mercantile classes come after.

For the above three regions, the sequence roughly matches the Hindu caste system without using terms like Vaishya and Shudra etc.

But Central Punjab is where things seem to change somewhat. Here social hierarchy will not follow the general caste system but instead will have to be analyzed on the clan and family level. Syeds, however, will still remain near the very top and Rajputs will also be well respected almost universally I think. But here Jatts and Gujjars also form the traditional elite of many districts. For example among the Jatts the Chatthas and Virks of Gujranwala and Shiekhupura, the Tarars of Hafizabad, Gondals of Mandi Bahauddin, Wattoos of Okara and the Nakais of Kasur are very influential. Among the Gujjars, the Khatanas of Dinga, the Mians of Lala Musa and also the Gujjars of Shakar Garh come to mind.

Of late Zamindar-non-zamindar divide has also become material and that's why I think the mercantile classes have been further pushed back in the traditional social hierarchies.

These are my opinions and observations and as such, I do not consider them infallible. If you have evidence to the contrary please share so that I may expand my knowledge.

It doesn't make sense to put ghakkhars and awans on top of hindu like caste system when both claim foreign origins which is likely to be fake hence they were low caste for brahmins before Islam. The only thing I know about Syed advantage is that people don't pick fight with them as its believed their curse have real effect, lol. You can call that unfair advantage over others. This is 2nd result I've seen of punjab syed and it looks like they are not brahmin converts.

If Syeds in south punjab are influential then they must likely own large tract of land. In punjab rural areas good agricultural land which determine your position in society and in urban areas education and business.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 02:22 AM
Just to state, I like how we’re keeping the discussion civil without any flamewar. The caste system is part of South Asia, although we all hate it, but it’s very important to discuss as well. You don’t have to believe in it and I believe it should be demolished like other people of my age.

Raza94
02-01-2018, 02:41 AM
Just to state, I like how we’re keeping the discussion civil without any flamewar. The caste system is part of South Asia, although we all hate it, but it’s very important to discuss as well. You don’t have to believe in it and I believe it should be demolished like other people of my age.

Great point Monkey D. These are conversations we should be having in order to hopefully one day get rid of these caste systems. Maybe our generation can make that difference.

Raza94
02-01-2018, 02:43 AM
Yea I've heard about the curse thing, but I've never cursed anyone so don't know if it works lmao.

And if it does not look like Brahmin convert, in your opinion what do you think it looks like?

Sapporo
02-01-2018, 02:46 AM
Alright, you made some excellent points, but for Raza, all of the other calculators suggest elevated South Indian/ASI admixture. Now, we cannot jump to conclusions, but even on Kurd's K=12 calculator he got around 27% SE Eurasian, which is very high and fairly score to that one Chammar/Brahmin member we had, who scored 33%. So, I just hypothesized based on what I saw, there's nothing more to it.

I think another explanation is that his ancestry doesn't fit the standard Punjabi biradaris such as Jatts, Rajputs, Gujjars, Tarkhans, Khatris, Arains, Kamboj, Awans, etc. Many Pakistani Punjabis claim titles like Syed and Shiekh but those aren't traditional "castes" or established avarna groups/communities with a supposed common origin. For example, the vast majority of Jatt Sikhs are either L1c or R1a1a and share very similar admixture profiles, which seems to substantiate somewhat of a common origin.

So while Raza and his family identify as Punjabi, they don't necessarily fit into one of the groups that "supposedly" share origins. His results indicate a bit of a southeastern shift of these various groups so it's possible his family is from some type of North Indian heritage with legitimate Iranian like ancestry that later adopted a Punjabi identity. Then again, it could just be intra-ethnic variation (we need to see more Syed results). With that, it's also important to note that I'm not even sure how old the Punjabi cultural and linguistic identity is. There are 100 million + native Punjabi speakers so it's hard to say when all these distinct communities started identifying as Punjabi. In fact, a significant portion might not even identify as ethnically Punjabi.

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 02:53 AM
I think another explanation is that his ancestry doesn't fit the standard Punjabi biradaris such as Jatts, Rajputs, Tarkhans, Khatris, Arains, Kamboj, Awans, etc. Many Pakistani Punjabis claim titles like Syed and Shiekh but those aren't traditional "castes" or established avarna groups/communities with a supposed common origin. For example, the vast majority of Jatt Sikhs are either L1c or R1a1a and share very similar admixture profiles, which seems to substantiate somewhat of a common origin.

So while Raza and his family identify as Punjabi, they don't necessarily fit into one of the groups that "supposedly" share origins. His results indicate a bit of a southeastern shift of these various groups so it's possible his family is from some type of North Indian heritage with legitimate Iranian like ancestry that later adopted a Punjabi identity. Then again, it could just be intra-ethnic variation (we need to see more Syed results). With that, it's also important to note that I'm not even sure how old the Punjabi cultural and linguistic identity is. There are 100 million + native Punjabi speakers so it's hard to say when all these distinct communities started identifying as Punjabi. In fact, a significant portion might not even identify as ethnically Punjabi.

Yeah, you're right bro. Well said! I agree with you 100%. Also, I sent you an email, be sure to check it out. I think you are also right for the most part here. And yeah, certainly!

Raza94
02-01-2018, 02:54 AM
I think another explanation is that his ancestry doesn't fit the standard Punjabi biradaris such as Jatts, Rajputs, Tarkhans, Khatris, Arains, Kamboj, Awans, etc. Many Pakistani Punjabis claim titles like Syed and Shiekh but those aren't traditional "castes" or established avarna groups/communities with a supposed common origin. For example, the vast majority of Jatt Sikhs are either L1c or R1a1a and share very similar admixture profiles, which seems to substantiate somewhat of a common origin.

So while Raza and his family identify as Punjabi, they don't necessarily fit into one of the groups that "supposedly" share origins. His results indicate a bit of a southeastern shift of these various groups so it's possible his family is from some type of North Indian heritage with legitimate Iranian like ancestry that later adopted a Punjabi identity. Then again, it could just be intra-ethnic variation (we need to see more Syed results). With that, it's also important to note that I'm not even sure how old the Punjabi cultural and linguistic identity is. There are 100 million + native Punjabi speakers so it's hard to say when all these distinct communities started identifying as Punjabi. In fact, a significant portion might not even identify as ethnically Punjabi.


That is interesting and something I never really thought about. Going to do some research about North Indian heritage for sure, but I see that I have some UP results, could that be it?

bol_nat
02-01-2018, 02:56 AM
Just to state, I like how we’re keeping the discussion civil without any flamewar. The caste system is part of South Asia, although we all hate it, but it’s very important to discuss as well. You don’t have to believe in it and I believe it should be demolished like other people of my age.

I believe only people who have real disadvantage historically are massalis and few others in rural areas as they were dependent on landowners. But that is changing with urbanisation and money from overseas.

Kulin
02-01-2018, 02:57 AM
I think another explanation is that his ancestry doesn't fit the standard Punjabi biradaris such as Jatts, Rajputs, Gujjars, Tarkhans, Khatris, Arains, Kamboj, Awans, etc. Many Pakistani Punjabis claim titles like Syed and Shiekh but those aren't traditional "castes" or established avarna groups/communities with a supposed common origin. For example, the vast majority of Jatt Sikhs are either L1c or R1a1a and share very similar admixture profiles, which seems to substantiate somewhat of a common origin.

So while Raza and his family identify as Punjabi, they don't necessarily fit into one of the groups that "supposedly" share origins. His results indicate a bit of a southeastern shift of these various groups so it's possible his family is from some type of North Indian heritage with legitimate Iranian like ancestry that later adopted a Punjabi identity. Then again, it could just be intra-ethnic variation (we need to see more Syed results). With that, it's also important to note that I'm not even sure how old the Punjabi cultural and linguistic identity is. There are 100 million + native Punjabi speakers so it's hard to say when all these distinct communities started identifying as Punjabi. In fact, a significant portion might not even identify as ethnically Punjabi.


It would be highly unlikely for that to happen though, if by North Indian you mean from the Hindi belt. Traditionally, people haven't migrated from the Hindi Belt to the Punjab, until recent times.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 03:04 AM
I believe only people who have real disadvantage historically are massalis and few others in rural areas as they were dependent on landowners. But that is changing with urbanisation and money from overseas.

Oh yea, with the reservation in India people from oppressed communities have been able to get education and decent jobs which has drastically improved their lifestyle. And I remember in Pakistan the christian community is very educated as well. You can imagine how much it has improved their lifestyle that communities like Jats and Gujjars are rioting for SC or OBC status. There is a difference in how these communities were seen in our grandparents times and how they’re seen now.

passion
02-01-2018, 03:05 AM
It would be highly unlikely for that to happen though, if by North Indian you mean from the Hindi belt. Traditionally, people haven't migrated from the Hindi Belt to the Punjab, until recent times.

not really there was always an influx from mainland India to Punjab specially for occupations which were considered lowly since Turkic dynasties , even British brought lot of castes during canal construction thats why I always say city population of Punjab isnt always the best indicator of pure Punjabi phenotypes.

Kulin
02-01-2018, 03:06 AM
Oh yea, with the reservation in India people from oppressed communities have been able to get education and decent jobs which has drastically improved their lifestyle. And I remember in Pakistan the christian community is very educated as well. You can imagine how much it has improved their lifestyle that communities like Jats and Gujjars are rioting for SC or OBC status. There is a difference in how these communities were seen in our grandparents times and how they’re seen now.

It has definitely helped a lot, but is also sort of unfair to upper caste communities, and quotas also discourage and decrease quality of competition.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 03:19 AM
It has definitely helped a lot, but is also sort of unfair to upper caste communities, and quotas also discourage and decrease quality of competition.

That’s where the politics comes in. But that is a completely different topic. That’ll derail the thread plus we might get a warning.

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 03:20 AM
not really there was always an influx from mainland India to Punjab specially for occupations which were considered lowly since Turkic dynasties , even British brought lot of castes during canal construction thats why I always say city population of Punjab isnt always the best indicator of pure Punjabi phenotypes.

I highly doubt that Massalis are recent imports straight out of Tamil Nadu. That's bit of a stretch.

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 03:21 AM
That is interesting and something I never really thought about. Going to do some research about North Indian heritage for sure, but I see that I have some UP results, could that be it?

Contact David when you have time, as he'll be able to give you the best picture.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 03:22 AM
not really there was always an influx from mainland India to Punjab specially for occupations which were considered lowly since Turkic dynasties , even British brought lot of castes during canal construction thats why I always say city population of Punjab isnt always the best indicator of pure Punjabi phenotypes.

If they speak Punjabi and have blended in Punjabi culture, they’re punjabi. There is no phenotype of Punjabis. You can look like anything regardless of genetics. That’s why we don’t talk about phenotypes here.

Sapporo
02-01-2018, 03:27 AM
It would be highly unlikely for that to happen though, if by North Indian you mean from the Hindi belt. Traditionally, people haven't migrated from the Hindi Belt to the Punjab, until recent times.

There have been plenty of population displacements and migrations throughout South Asia's history. War, kingdoms, famine, opportunity, etc. caused people to move around. His Harappa admixture score isn't too far off from the UP Muslims and UP Syed participants. See HRP0119 (UP Syed) and HRP0311 (UP Muslim). HRP0261 is another UP Muslim Syed.

HRP0119 - UP Syed
South Indian 36%
Baloch 37%
Caucasian 7%
NE Euro 8%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
NE Asian 1%
American 2%
Mediterranean 3%
SW Asian 4%


HRP0311 UP Muslim - has much more noisy results since they're after HRP0240 (their Harappa Gedmatch would be more comparable)
South Indian 33%
Baloch 33%
Caucasian 10%
NE Euro 9%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
NE Asian 2%
Papuan 1% (1.48%)
American 2%
Beringian 1%
Mediterranean 4%
SW Asian 2%
1% San

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ou8tDgV-XsvL-HH_2zpmbChJVEZKQIG3uU-JBet2G_Q/edit?hl=en&hl=en#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=1

@khana

I was going through Harappa's comment section and found more detailed origins for 7/8 Ghilzai and 1/8 Hazara individual that Sein provided quite some time ago.


I now have permission from my friend HRP0326 to elaborate on his broader family background. HRP0326 is 25% Amarkhel Ghilzai (paternal grandfather, so this is his tribe), 25% Kharoti Ghilzai, 12.5% Tarakhel Ghilzai, 12.5% Mohammadzai Durrani, 12.5% Alekozai Durrani, and 12.5% Jaghuri Hazara (maternal great grandmother). So he is 62.5% Ghilzai Pashtun, 25% Durrani Pashtun, and 12.5% Hazara.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 03:30 AM
There have been plenty of population displacements and migrations throughout South Asia's history. War, kingdoms, famine, opportunity, etc. caused people to move around. His Harappa admixture score isn't too far off from the UP Muslims and UP Syed participants. See HRP0119 (UP Syed).

HRP0119 - UP Syed
South Indian 36%
Baloch 37%
Caucasian 7%
NE Euro 8%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
NE Asian 1%
American 2%
Mediterranean 3%
SW Asian 4%

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ou8tDgV-XsvL-HH_2zpmbChJVEZKQIG3uU-JBet2G_Q/edit?hl=en&hl=en#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit#gid=1

Aside from high East asian, the results are strikingly similar.

bol_nat
02-01-2018, 03:32 AM
Yea I've heard about the curse thing, but I've never cursed anyone so don't know if it works lmao.

And if it does not look like Brahmin convert, in your opinion what do you think it looks like?

You may as well be cross between UP brahmin and some west asian. Your Y haplogrup is pretty much local. But you are scoring some unusually high med and SW Asian. Since you have grandparents from all over punjab, in your case DNA tests of parents can give us better idea from where med and SW asian is coming from. If both parents score similar med and SW Asian then it could be that other syeds in punjab may show similar pattern.

I know for the fact that in Kharian villages syeds were granted land by locals but they don't make majority in any like other braderis. So they may as well have come from somewhere UP as it used to have large number of muslims of foreign decent + local ancestry.

Raza94
02-01-2018, 03:43 AM
Wow those results are pretty shocking to me. Nowhere in our family is there any mention of UP at all. I will message David and see what he says well. But this really does come as a shock to me.

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 03:49 AM
Wow those results are pretty shocking to me. Nowhere in our family is there any mention of UP at all. I will message David and see what he says well. But this really does come as a shock to me.

Yeah, be sure to. Tell him about your unique background, and ask him if he can detect some additional Middle Eastern/West Asian admixture. Then share your results if you want to.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 03:51 AM
Another syed I get as a match, her results seem very similar to kashmiris:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.75
2 S-Indian 30.12
3 Caucasian 12.09
4 NE-Euro 10.89
5 SW-Asian 3.08
6 NE-Asian 2.53
7 Siberian 2.07
8 Beringian 1.45
9 Mediterranean 0.85
10 American 0.17

Sapporo
02-01-2018, 03:57 AM
Another syed I get as a match, her results seem very similar to kashmiris:

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.75
2 S-Indian 30.12
3 Caucasian 12.09
4 NE-Euro 10.89
5 SW-Asian 3.08
6 NE-Asian 2.53
7 Siberian 2.07
8 Beringian 1.45
9 Mediterranean 0.85
10 American 0.17

I think it's suggestive of South Central Asian ancestry rather than Iranian due to the NE Euro. Although, it is probably sourced from Pashtuns rather than Kho/Shina/Chitrali/Kohistani/Burusho type populations. None of those Dardic populations migrated to UP in large numbers while Kashmiris from the Valley live fairly close to those Northern Areas/Gilgit Baltistan.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 04:25 AM
A UP jat results (Bargoti)

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 35.64
2 S-Indian 34.38
3 NE-Euro 15.11
4 Caucasian 9.44
5 American 2.1
6 Siberian 0.94
7 SW-Asian 0.83
8 SE-Asian 0.71
9 NE-Asian 0.69
10 Mediterranean 0.16


_________________________________________

Another syed results:

1 Baloch 33.52
2 S-Indian 33.5
3 Caucasian 12.47
4 NE-Euro 10.37
5 Mediterranean 2.11
6 NE-Asian 1.87
7 SE-Asian 1.59
8 American 1.58
9 Siberian 1.36
10 Beringian 0.73
11 SW-Asian 0.68
12 Papuan 0.24

bmoney
02-01-2018, 04:43 AM
edited

Sapporo
02-01-2018, 04:45 AM
A UP jat results (Bargoti)

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 35.64
2 S-Indian 34.38
3 NE-Euro 15.11
4 Caucasian 9.44
5 American 2.1
6 Siberian 0.94
7 SW-Asian 0.83
8 SE-Asian 0.71
9 NE-Asian 0.69
10 Mediterranean 0.16



Did you confirm they're full Western UP Jat?

If they are, this is why I've been insistent on not making assumptions on admixture off 1-2 samples. There is probably some diversity with regards to admixture for each biradari/tribe/avarna. Harappa has 15 Jatt Sikh samples and we've probably seen 20+ results whereas with Haryana Jats, it is 6-7 samples and for Rajasthani Jats (just 2). The only UP Jat sample we've seen so far is 1/2 Haryana Jat (HRP0131). Can you please pm their Gedmatch kit no. and if possible, their Gedmatch email. I'm going to just confirm their ancestry before jumping to conclusions.


Funnily enough I went to school with a Bargoti - he described himself separate to Sikh and Haryana Jatts and said his community was 'Jaat not Jatt' and OBC

But he was young so might not have known his communities history

Phenotypically he looked Sri Lankan

Sikhs normally spell it as Jatt as well as many Pakistani Punjabis. The usage of Jat or Jaat is more often associated with Hindu Jats. They're all in reference to the same (avarna/community/tribe) though (Jatt, Jat or Jaat).

note: I just emailed this Bargoti fellow. I'm curious if he is mixed or fully Western UP Jat.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 04:49 AM
Did you confirm they're full Western UP Jat?

If they are, this is why I've been insistent on not making assumptions on admixture off 1-2 samples. Harappa has 15 Jatt Sikh samples and we've probably seen 20+ whereas with Haryana Jats, it is 6-7 samples and for Rajasthani Jats (just 2). The only UP Jat sample we've seen so far is 1/2 Haryana Jat (HRP0131). Can you please pm their Gedmatch kit no. and if possible, their Gedmatch email.



Sikhs normally spell it as Jatt as well as many Pakistani Punjabis. The usage of Jat or Jaat is more often associated with Hindu Jats. They're all in reference to the same (avarna) though (Jatt, Jat or Jaat).

Check your facebook/

Heir of Gandhara
02-01-2018, 04:52 AM
It doesn't make sense to put ghakkhars and awans on top of hindu like caste system when both claim foreign origins which is likely to be fake hence they were low caste for brahmins before Islam. The only thing I know about Syed advantage is that people don't pick fight with them as its believed their curse have real effect, lol. You can call that unfair advantage over others. This is 2nd result I've seen of punjab syed and it looks like they are not brahmin converts.

If Syeds in south punjab are influential then they must likely own large tract of land. In punjab rural areas good agricultural land which determine your position in society and in urban areas education and business.

The caste system I talk about in Western Punjab, in my opinion, is an interpretation of the Hindu system recalibrated for its Muslim affectees and that's why it accommodates possible 'non-Hindu converts' like Gakkhars, Syeds and the Baloch just fine. The point I am consistently trying to make here is that in rural Western Punjab, a Hindu inspired complex and layered caste system is still functioning despite the population being overwhelmingly Muslim - possibly more so in some Punjabi subregions than others.

Gakkhars could possibly be of Achaemenid origin given their ancestor's name was 'Kai Gawhr' but for some reason, they also proudly use the uniquely Sanskriti title of Raja. But they have always been an extremely belligerent and militaristic people so that's why they probably occupy a Kshatriya like status in their regions.

Land holdings and the fleshed out zamindari system is a recent phenomenon and only became very important after the British started reclaiming arid lands by building canals. Up until the end of the 19th century, this region was mostly just tribal jagirs and pastoralists moving about with their cattle and goat. Before the British, tribes who held the jagirs governed them by tribal laws which were unique from tribe to tribe.

Quite surprisingly Pothwar is probably the most caste oriented of all Pakistani Punjab subregions despite having a strong Muslim identity with 80-85% population being Muslims at the time of partition and probably much before that.

Regarding Arains: I think they could Sindhis who were exiled by the Samma Jams for siding with the Muslim conquerors of yore? And since they were proud of their new faith and association with the Arab conquerors so they vocally proclaimed an Arab identity. But I have also heard some very proud Arains claiming that this Arab origin myth is a very recent invention.

bmoney
02-01-2018, 05:39 AM
The caste system I talk about in Western Punjab, in my opinion, is an interpretation of the Hindu system recalibrated for its Muslim affectees and that's why it accommodates possible 'non-Hindu converts' like Gakkhars, Syeds and the Baloch just fine. The point I am consistently trying to make here is that in rural Western Punjab, a Hindu inspired complex and layered caste system is still functioning despite the population being overwhelmingly Muslim - possibly more so in some Punjabi subregions than others.

Gakkhars could possibly be of Achaemenid origin given their ancestor's name was 'Kai Gawhr' but for some reason, they also proudly use the uniquely Sanskriti title of Raja. But they have always been an extremely belligerent and militaristic people so that's why they probably occupy a Kshatriya like status in their regions.

Land holdings and the fleshed out zamindari system is a recent phenomenon and only became very important after the British started reclaiming arid lands by building canals. Up until the end of the 19th century, this region was mostly just tribal jagirs and pastoralists moving about with their cattle and goat. Before the British, tribes who held the jagirs governed them by tribal laws which were unique from tribe to tribe.

Quite surprisingly Pothwar is probably the most caste oriented of all Pakistani Punjab subregions despite having a strong Muslim identity with 80-85% population being Muslims at the time of partition and probably much before that.

Regarding Arains: I think they could Sindhis who were exiled by the Samma Jams for siding with the Muslim conquerors of yore? And since they were proud of their new faith and association with the Arab conquerors so they vocally proclaimed an Arab identity. But I have also heard some very proud Arains claiming that this Arab origin myth is a very recent invention.

Arains and Sindhis have similar admixtures incidentally

bol_nat
02-01-2018, 05:56 AM
And indeed, why do chamars score such high SI? Are they 'more native' to Punjab or in fact the opposite? That observation does in fact go against my argument, of caste being less important autosomally than tribal identity in the NW / Pakistan. What are people's thoughts?

Pretty much vast majority of current day villages in Punjab were founded after Mughal rule as pastoral tribes started to settle down and adopt farming. This process accelerated after British build canal colonies in southern punjab region. If Jatts founded some village and brought along with them people like massalis who were also nomadic and apparently have high ASI. As no other would do the same job for low wage in barter like system in those times.

Its not like they have been living in same village since thousands of years, more like some centuries at most. Where do punjab massalis come from? I've read some of their original clan names and they appear to be similar to schedule caste of Rajasthan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scheduled_castes_in_Rajasthan

their counterpart in punjab

https://www.dawn.com/news/1173232

Both have many similar clan names and likely same origin as well but speak different languages now.

Sapporo
02-01-2018, 06:05 AM
Honestly, I have no idea where communities such as Mazhabi Sikh or Ravidassia originate from. They probably form the bulk of Indian Punjab's (East Punjab) dalit or "low caste" population. Despite biradari such as Jatts, Gujjars, Khatris, Kamboj & Tarkhan also being avarna, the treatment of these marginalized groups is very akin to the stereotyped caste system treatment of dalits from upper castes such as Brahmins or Rajputs. Often, they are barred from entry to Gurdwaras of all places. This kind of stuff happens to this day even in the UK and possibly Canada or the USA.

prashantvaidwan
02-01-2018, 06:39 AM
Did you confirm they're full Western UP Jat?

If they are, this is why I've been insistent on not making assumptions on admixture off 1-2 samples. There is probably some diversity with regards to admixture for each biradari/tribe/avarna. Harappa has 15 Jatt Sikh samples and we've probably seen 20+ results whereas with Haryana Jats, it is 6-7 samples and for Rajasthani Jats (just 2). The only UP Jat sample we've seen so far is 1/2 Haryana Jat (HRP0131). Can you please pm their Gedmatch kit no. and if possible, their Gedmatch email. I'm going to just confirm their ancestry before jumping to conclusions.



Sikhs normally spell it as Jatt as well as many Pakistani Punjabis. The usage of Jat or Jaat is more often associated with Hindu Jats. They're all in reference to the same (avarna/community/tribe) though (Jatt, Jat or Jaat).

note: I just emailed this Bargoti fellow. I'm curious if he is mixed or fully Western UP Jat.

- Jaat is an improper word, recently came up in picture due to more hindi influence. It is jat/jatt/jutt
- Even jat word does not seem very old phenomenon in west UP/ Haryana. Still many villages in Haryana/West UP /delhi have a "jatt" suffix and it is strictly pronounced as jatt even today
- Most of the jats (hindu) are migrated in west UP from Haryana , Punjab
- there was old migration and new migration.
- there are hundreds of villages of Punjabi jat in amroha , Moradabad area who recently migrated to UP (just 200-300 years back)..all their gotras are same as Sikh jatts (sandhu , cheema, wararich, shergill, bajwa, jhazz, brar, gill, pannu, behniwal, sidhhu, dhillon etc) and culture is a mix of Punjabi/west UP. fews of these Punjabi jat are well mixed with other jats in many areas. These recently migrated jats are called as "pachhadde" ( from west) and old migrated jats are called themselves "deswali"

Raza94
02-01-2018, 06:44 AM
- Jaat is an improper word, recently came up in picture due to more hindi influence. It is jat/jatt/jutt
- Even jat word does not seem very old phenomenon in west UP/ Haryana. Still many villages in Haryana/West UP /delhi have a "jatt" suffix and it is strictly pronounced as jatt even today
- Most of the jats (hindu) are migrated in west UP from Haryana , Punjab
- there was old migration and new migration.
- there are hundreds of villages of Punjabi jat in amroha , Moradabad area who recently migrated to UP (just 200-300 years back)..all their gotras are same as Sikh jatts (sandhu , cheema, wararich, shergill, bajwa, jhazz, brar, gill, pannu, behniwal, sidhhu, dhillon etc) and culture is a mix of Punjabi/west UP. fews of these Punjabi jat are well mixed with other jats in many areas. These recently migrated jats are called as "pachhadde" ( from west) and old migrated jats are called themselves "deswali"


Hey I have a question for you,

You mention these are Sikh Jatt gotras so what would Muslim jatt gotras be? Because I have seen Muslims with Cheema and Bajwa, even some with Sidhu and Gill. Could it be that these are not necessarily Sikh or Muslims but rather just Jatt gotras? Just throwing it out there

prashantvaidwan
02-01-2018, 06:55 AM
Hey I have a question for you,

You mention these are Sikh Jatt gotras so what would Muslim jatt gotras be? Because I have seen Muslims with Cheema and Bajwa, even some with Sidhu and Gill. Could it be that these are not necessarily Sikh or Muslims but rather just Jatt gotras? Just throwing it out there

Yes these are jat gotra, but few ppl are already adamant here on clustering jats according to region..so I made it easy.lol... I believe all jats are from the same stock whether hindu, muslim or Sikhs. Despite speaking differentl languages and residing in different regions, there are many things which are strikingly similar

poi
02-01-2018, 07:11 AM
edited

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 07:42 AM
Arains and Sindhis have similar admixtures incidentally

Yeah, I cluster with Sindhis as well. Though, not an Arain and don't have any recent Arain ancestry that I know of.

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 07:43 AM
Pretty much vast majority of current day villages in Punjab were founded after Mughal rule as pastoral tribes started to settle down and adopt farming. This process accelerated after British build canal colonies in southern punjab region. If Jatts founded some village and brought along with them people like massalis who were also nomadic and apparently have high ASI. As no other would do the same job for low wage in barter like system in those times.

Its not like they have been living in same village since thousands of years, more like some centuries at most. Where do punjab massalis come from? I've read some of their original clan names and they appear to be similar to schedule caste of Rajasthan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scheduled_castes_in_Rajasthan

their counterpart in punjab

https://www.dawn.com/news/1173232

Both have many similar clan names and likely same origin as well but speak different languages now.

Come on bro, don't ruin my worldview. Apparently, we've been living in the same village for thousands of years as Gujjars. :D

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 07:46 AM
Hey I have a question for you,

You mention these are Sikh Jatt gotras so what would Muslim jatt gotras be? Because I have seen Muslims with Cheema and Bajwa, even some with Sidhu and Gill. Could it be that these are not necessarily Sikh or Muslims but rather just Jatt gotras? Just throwing it out there

I think Chaudary is another Muslim Jatt Gotra, I could be wrong though. By the way, I ran your K36 results through these two calculators:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

I won't post your results here, but take a look yourself. If you want to talk about it, post them yourself so we can all discuss. It would be rude of me to post your results without your consent. :) I want you to find out for yourself. Nice stuff!

prashantvaidwan
02-01-2018, 07:52 AM
I don't know how the rigvedic varna system could be fitted with the medieval or modern india.

- Rig Vedic varna system was Brahmana's created..they were the sole knower of vedas and educated....earlier varna was not hereditary and there was some sanity in that. With the time passes by, this system got corrupted, became rigid and hereditary. Apart from vedas, which are not likely historical narration, and mythological Ramayana mahabharat and purans there are not much noted historical accounts to derive much about those ancient people. Leave apart Ramayana, even Mahabharata time line is not fixed yet.

- from 300 BC to 400 AD, Buddhism dominated in entire north, emergence of kushans, scythians, greeks in north west. These were designated as malecchas, though they had big empire and large influence in north and most of them were following buddhism. Indigenous shudras like Maurays, nand had large kingdoms in north ...I wonder who was representing the Vedic Kshatriyas at that time....where did they go ..did they become Buddhists?

- after the downfall of buddishm and restoration of Vedic/hindusim by shankracharya who came from south...was it a restoration or it was reshaped completely ?

- On mount abu, fireborn agnikula kshatriayas emerged who adhered to the reshaped brahmanical system...who were these people?..Were these not the Buddhists rulers previously labeled as malechaas..and what happened to those who opposed? were they not labeled as shudras

- Rajput as a caste came in prominence just after 16th century..earlier it was a status used for king officials and kins. People of various ethnic groups merged in rajputs...I don't know we even can compare them with ancient Kshatriyas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput

- people in north west were tribals and were never fitted well in hindu varna system..so words like Kshatriyas/vaishya and high caste/low caste are meaningless
- Most of the tribes of Pakistan as janjua, johiya , khokhar, kharal etc which are either rajputs/jatts today were independent tribes in all Mughal and other records..these tribes got these identity later

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 07:54 AM
All I will say that there does seem to be an Arab/Levantine pull, albeit small. My best guess is that you are likely made up of three lineages, a MENA ancestor way back, a central Indian ancestor, and a Brahmin ancestor. I cannot say more than that, but it does seem pretty interesting. Perhaps there was some sort of hybridization between an Arab/Levantine ancestor and a UP_Brahmin ancestor, way back when? I can't say more than that.

prashantvaidwan
02-01-2018, 08:00 AM
I think Chaudary is another Muslim Jatt Gotra, I could be wrong though. By the way, I ran your K36 results through these two calculators:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

I won't post your results here, but take a look yourself. If you want to talk about it, post them yourself so we can all discuss. It would be rude of me to post your results without your consent. :) I want you to find out for yourself. Nice stuff!

Chaudhary is not a gotra, it is a title..in pakistan it is used by jatts, gujjars, arains etc..

prashantvaidwan
02-01-2018, 08:29 AM
, @bmoney.. No offense.. I have read that nairs are born out of nambiduri brahmins and nairs women with "sambandham"..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair
See sambandham here..

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 09:17 AM
, @bmoney.. No offense.. I have read that nairs are born out of nambiduri brahmins and nairs women with "sambandham"..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair
See sambandham here..

Please don't mention such things which are sure to cause controversy. Also, I doubt this applies to every single Nair. It was probably a minority who this applies to. A while back I made the same mistake, and felt bad afterwards. It's definitely not worth bringing up.

Heir of Gandhara
02-01-2018, 09:18 AM
- people in north west were tribals and were never fitted well in hindu varna system..so words like Kshatriyas/vaishya and high caste/low caste are meaningless
- Most of the tribes of Pakistan as janjua, johiya , khokhar, kharal etc which are either rajputs/jatts today were independent tribes in all Mughal and other records..these tribes got these identity later

If you think the verna system was never accepted in these regions then how do you explain the presence of numerous occupational castes especially in the Muslim areas of Punjab?

Who in your opinion are the Janjuas? Do you think they are a Punjabi hill tribe who achieved prominence and awarded the Rajput title to themselves?

bmoney
02-01-2018, 09:24 AM
edited

dude come on i want to hear it

bmoney
02-01-2018, 09:38 AM
, @bmoney.. No offense.. I have read that nairs are born out of nambiduri brahmins and nairs women with "sambandham"..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair
See sambandham here..

No offence taken bro Im a Nambiar and we didn't practice it - It was practiced in certain regions where Brahmins settled in large numbers like Central Kerala

Nair is a loose term and was actually sometimes given as a title by Rajas in return for service

South India does not really have a caste system outside the Brahmins, it was not historically Aryan

silentobserver
02-01-2018, 11:09 AM
What's your mtDNA?

pegasus
02-01-2018, 11:13 AM
If you think the verna system was never accepted in these regions then how do you explain the presence of numerous occupational castes especially in the Muslim areas of Punjab?

Who in your opinion are the Janjuas? Do you think they are a Punjabi hill tribe who achieved prominence and awarded the Rajput title to themselves?

The 'caste' system in Western Punjab is more complex and seems to be more "tribe" based rather than caste, because women definitely do have upward mobility, the vice versa though seems much more rarer, but you can definitely see it in results. Also they are 3 different ethnic groups living in the area, Pashtun related groups in the Mianwali areas, Baloch like Khetranis, and hybridized Sindhi types in the South , at least from my impression.
Also how common are consanguineous marriages ( marriages between first cousins) ? I know it is very common among Mirpuris in the UK , because the Daily Telegraph put an article about a few years back, but most Pakistanis in the UK tend to be Mirpuris.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/11723308/First-cousin-marriages-in-Pakistani-communities-leading-to-appalling-disabilities-among-children.html

Heir of Gandhara
02-01-2018, 01:32 PM
The 'caste' system in Western Punjab is more complex and seems to be more "tribe" based rather than caste, because women definitely do have upward mobility, the vice versa though seems much more rarer, but you can definitely see it in results. Also they are 3 different ethnic groups living in the area, Pashtun related groups in the Mianwali areas, Baloch like Khetranis, and hybridized Sindhi types in the South , at least from my impression.
Also how common are consanguineous marriages ( marriages between first cousins) ? I know it is very common among Mirpuris in the UK , because the Daily Telegraph put an article about a few years back, but most Pakistanis in the UK tend to be Mirpuris.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/children/11723308/First-cousin-marriages-in-Pakistani-communities-leading-to-appalling-disabilities-among-children.html

Tribe based for the upper strata. I think strictly caste based for the traditionally less fortunate classes. I think Nai, Telli, Mussali, Julaha, Kubhaar etc are first and foremost occupational castes and then they are probably spread into smaller tribes and clans. And even in the upper strata of society, tribal identities seem to loosely coalesce around hereditary professions like Piri and shrine custodianship for instance.

I totally agree with the upward mobility point.

First cousin marriages are somewhat frequent. Marriages within the village or extended family are very common.

From what I have observed in Pakistani Punjab, Jatts usually marry outside their tribe but within the Jatts. Almost all my Jatt friends have grandmothers who are from outside their own tribes. And this is what makes the article all the more surprising cos apparently in Mirpur, first cousin marriages are common even though the district is Jatt majority. Probably to keep the land holdings within the family?

Mingle
02-01-2018, 02:59 PM
True, but lets not forget how that Steppe ancestry got there in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire

Most of it likely came from Andronovo (Proto-Indo-Iranians).

Mingle
02-01-2018, 03:22 PM
The 'caste' system in Western Punjab is more complex and seems to be more "tribe" based rather than caste

Isn't it like that in most of India as well?

bol_nat
02-01-2018, 03:40 PM
The caste system I talk about in Western Punjab, in my opinion, is an interpretation of the Hindu system recalibrated for its Muslim affectees and that's why it accommodates possible 'non-Hindu converts' like Gakkhars, Syeds and the Baloch just fine. The point I am consistently trying to make here is that in rural Western Punjab, a Hindu inspired complex and layered caste system is still functioning despite the population being overwhelmingly Muslim - possibly more so in some Punjabi subregions than others.

Gakkhars could possibly be of Achaemenid origin given their ancestor's name was 'Kai Gawhr' but for some reason, they also proudly use the uniquely Sanskriti title of Raja. But they have always been an extremely belligerent and militaristic people so that's why they probably occupy a Kshatriya like status in their regions.

Land holdings and the fleshed out zamindari system is a recent phenomenon and only became very important after the British started reclaiming arid lands by building canals. Up until the end of the 19th century, this region was mostly just tribal jagirs and pastoralists moving about with their cattle and goat. Before the British, tribes who held the jagirs governed them by tribal laws which were unique from tribe to tribe.

Quite surprisingly Pothwar is probably the most caste oriented of all Pakistani Punjab subregions despite having a strong Muslim identity with 80-85% population being Muslims at the time of partition and probably much before that.

Regarding Arains: I think they could Sindhis who were exiled by the Samma Jams for siding with the Muslim conquerors of yore? And since they were proud of their new faith and association with the Arab conquerors so they vocally proclaimed an Arab identity. But I have also heard some very proud Arains claiming that this Arab origin myth is a very recent invention.

Who is making these rules if not brahmins? How Syed, Ghakkhar and Baloch are integrated and are on top in hinduism varna like caste system of Pothwar? To me it looks more like tribe based where certain braderis have more influence because of population numbers and land they hold compared to others. But I wouldn't confuse it with varna because brahmins are on top not because they own large tract of land or have more population then others.

pegasus
02-01-2018, 05:38 PM
Isn't it like that in most of India as well?

I think other members would be more apt at answering that but from my readings and people I talk too, it seems caste endogamy varies between rural vs urban areas as well as states. From what I have seen in Canada, generally the Punjabi people (those are the only Indians I am exposed to there) are not as caste conscious, my friend told me its preferred to marry within the same caste but its not a big deal either, as many also marry Europeans or other non Punjabis. Though most of them are dead set against consanguineous marriages and marrying people from the same village (even if they are not related) , so its a very different pattern than what Heir of Gandhara describes in the Western Punjab.

parasar
02-01-2018, 05:45 PM
If you think the verna system was never accepted in these regions then how do you explain the presence of numerous occupational castes especially in the Muslim areas of Punjab?

Who in your opinion are the Janjuas? Do you think they are a Punjabi hill tribe who achieved prominence and awarded the Rajput title to themselves?

They are Rajput no doubt*, but I think Brahman Rajputs not Kshatriya. As Sapporo had mentioned somewhere, the Kshatriyas became a mercantile caste. All Sikh Gurus were Kshatriyas with a martial transition in the later Gurus.

Many of our relatives (Bisen, Kinwar, Sakarwar) etc. are Rajputs, those who converted to Islam are Pathan, but in general those who did not convert or who did not follow primogeniture stayed in the Brahman fold (eg. Mohyals, Tagas, Babhans, Chippavans, etc)).

*Their traditional account:
"But the traditions of the Janjoahs themselves do not point to a very ancient occupancy of the Panjab. They all trace their descent from a Raja Mal, a descendant of the Pandus and of the Rahtor Rajput race, who about the year 980 A.D. emigrated to the Panjab from Jodhpur or Kanauj, which latter country was then ruled by a Rahtor Prince ... Raja Mal refused to attend; so Mahmud sent a force against him, which defeated and took him prisoner; and, to save his life and regain his liberty, he was compelled to renounce his Hindu faith and adopt lslamism. The name of the tribe is said to have arisen from this conversion, when the janj, or thread worn by Raja Mal and all Hindus, and denoting his cast, was broken."

Historical:
"They joined Timur Shah when he invaded India in 1398, and fought under him throughout his campaign. In 1526 they readily submitted to Babar Shah, who has given a somewhat detailed account of the tribe in his memoirs. He mentions that its two divisions were then known by the names of Jodh and Janjoah, agreeing with the Jodhis and Johyas of Rajputana history, though at the present day both have the common name of Janjoah. The Gakhars were the great enemies of the tribe and drove them out of many of their villages; the Awans also pressed them hard; and the Sikhs, last and worst of all, completed their overthrow."
The Panjab Chiefs: Historical and Biographical Notices By Lepel Henry Griffin
"Their principal headman was called Rai"
Babur Nama

Raza94
02-01-2018, 06:40 PM
I think Chaudary is another Muslim Jatt Gotra, I could be wrong though. By the way, I ran your K36 results through these two calculators:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm
http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/ancient.htm

I won't post your results here, but take a look yourself. If you want to talk about it, post them yourself so we can all discuss. It would be rude of me to post your results without your consent. :) I want you to find out for yourself. Nice stuff!

Hey thanks for the links! I did them and to be honest I am a little confused about what to think. Here is what I got:

21136

21137

21138

Do I have to get rid of one of the populations or anything like that?

parasar
02-01-2018, 06:53 PM
Hey thanks for the links! I did them and to be honest I am a little confused about what to think. Here is what I got:

21136

21137

21138

Do I have to get rid of one of the populations or anything like that?

I would say ASI (Ust Ishim - very early split from Basal but on the ancestral ASI side), ANE, South Asian/Iranian (Hotu, WC1 etc - a chunk of Basal plus a chunk from the ancestral ASI side - ANE/MA1), and Steppe (Yamna + others) in that order.

I am not sure if the numbers are comparable as the ancient specimens may differ in their coverage and quality, but those are the ancient populations most related to you.

Raza94
02-01-2018, 10:42 PM
Thanks for the input man. I think the best way to find out would be to get my parents to do the test

Xehanort
02-01-2018, 10:46 PM
Thanks for the input man. I think the best way to find out would be to get my parents to do the test

Yeah, you scored quite a bit of Natufian and Bronze Age Levantine affinities, which are absent in the majority of South Asians, seem to indicate that you have Arab ancestry. Also, take a look at the similitude chart. You have affinities to Central and East Indians as well as Middle Easterners, to an extent.

Heir of Gandhara
02-02-2018, 12:18 AM
Who is making these rules if not brahmins? How Syed, Ghakkhar and Baloch are integrated and are on top in hinduism varna like caste system of Pothwar? To me it looks more like tribe based where certain braderis have more influence because of population numbers and land they hold compared to others. But I wouldn't confuse it with varna because brahmins are on top not because they own large tract of land or have more population then others.

Precisely the question I also seeking an answer to. Why do we have a loose form of caste system even where Brahmins are no where to be found? Call it caste system or call it tribal social heirarchies or what have you. The presence of strictly occupational castes also adds to the confusion.




They are Rajput no doubt*, but I think Brahman Rajputs not Kshatriya. As Sapporo had mentioned somewhere, the Kshatriyas became a mercantile caste. All Sikh Gurus were Kshatriyas with a martial transition in the later Gurus.

Many of our relatives (Bisen, Kinwar, Sakarwar) etc. are Rajputs, those who converted to Islam are Pathan, but in general those who did not convert or who did not follow primogeniture stayed in the Brahman fold (eg. Mohyals, Tagas, Babhans, Chippavans, etc)).

*Their traditional account:
"But the traditions of the Janjoahs themselves do not point to a very ancient occupancy of the Panjab. They all trace their descent from a Raja Mal, a descendant of the Pandus and of the Rahtor Rajput race, who about the year 980 A.D. emigrated to the Panjab from Jodhpur or Kanauj, which latter country was then ruled by a Rahtor Prince ... Raja Mal refused to attend; so Mahmud sent a force against him, which defeated and took him prisoner; and, to save his life and regain his liberty, he was compelled to renounce his Hindu faith and adopt lslamism. The name of the tribe is said to have arisen from this conversion, when the janj, or thread worn by Raja Mal and all Hindus, and denoting his cast, was broken."

Historical:
"They joined Timur Shah when he invaded India in 1398, and fought under him throughout his campaign. In 1526 they readily submitted to Babar Shah, who has given a somewhat detailed account of the tribe in his memoirs. He mentions that its two divisions were then known by the names of Jodh and Janjoah, agreeing with the Jodhis and Johyas of Rajputana history, though at the present day both have the common name of Janjoah. The Gakhars were the great enemies of the tribe and drove them out of many of their villages; the Awans also pressed them hard; and the Sikhs, last and worst of all, completed their overthrow."
The Panjab Chiefs: Historical and Biographical Notices By Lepel Henry Griffin
"Their principal headman was called Rai"
Babur Nama

Rajput converting to Islam and calling themselves Pathans is something I have never heard in Pakistan. Where are these relatives of yours from?

I am impressed with the amount of knowledge you have especially given the accurate spellings.

But the traditional account does not make much sense and is very different from what I have. Raja Mal Dev accepted Islam, captured the modern day Malot in modern-day Chakwal and made it his seat. Now if this had happened in 980 A.D, Malot would have been a Hindu Shahi Fort. Then his second son Raja Jodh founded Makhiyala in modern-day Jhelum which is also a Hindu Shahi site and if going by your timeline this happened somewhere around 1010 A.D, then Makhiala area and the nearby Nandana Fort would also have been snatched away from the Hindu Shahi. But this is also impossible because this the site where the Hindu Shahis took their last stand many years after 1010 A.D. So obviously the 980 A.D date is incorrect and whoever gave that account to the author of your source was not very well informed. This I think would also disprove Mahmud of Ghazni seizing Raja Mal and forcing him to convert. I have also seen a 'Janjua' telling to a newspaper journalist how their ancestor is the Prophet Hazrat Ar.

Now I will give you the account I have: Raja Mal Dev accepted Islam sometimes when the Ghaznavids were losing power to the Ghaurids so I would place his conversion date somewhere between 1150-1180. Since Ghaznavid-Ghaurid warfare was focussed on modern-day Afghanistan, Mr. Mal seized the opportunity and captured Malot followed by a string of sites along the entire Salt-Range. When Ghaurids entered the subcontinent, the region of modern-day Pothwar was nominally independent and that's why Shahab-ud-Din Ghauri was also killed in Jhelum by the Gakkhars with such impunity. Now I have reasons to believe that by the time Shahab entered subcontinent, Janjuas were already on the rise because the next historical mention the tribe finds is just 90ish years after Shahab's death. In around 1290, in a warning letter to the Mongols across Indus, Jalaluddin Firoz Khilji said: 'I made the blood to flow in Janjua so that a boat might have glided within the Hills of Jodh.' 220 years after that, Babur in his memoirs gives a more detailed account of the tribe. But please remember that before the rise of the Sikh Empire, the region of Pothwar has always remained independent in one way or the other. Even when Sher Shah Suri tried building the Rohtas fort, it is well known that his influence did not extend beyond the confines of that fort and just to construct the fort he had to pay one gold ashrafi per brick laid at one point.

Now on to the origins of the name: If we trace the Janjua family tree then just 6-9 generations before Raja Mal Dev, we find a person named Raja Janjua Paal. And he is the namesake of the tribe. And also when a person in Pothwar says 'Raja', to an untrained ear it might sound as if he's saying Rai.

And yes Jud (Jodh) and Janjua mentioned by Babur is the same tribe. I descend from the Juds he mentioned and we indentified as that because we descended from Raja Mal Dev's second son Raja Jodh. 'Koh-i-Jodh' the old name of Salt-Range was also named after him.

bmoney
02-02-2018, 01:49 AM
I would say ASI (Ust Ishim - very early split from Basal but on the ancestral ASI side), ANE, South Asian/Iranian (Hotu, WC1 etc - a chunk of Basal plus a chunk from the ancestral ASI side - ANE/MA1), and Steppe (Yamna + others) in that order.

I am not sure if the numbers are comparable as the ancient specimens may differ in their coverage and quality, but those are the ancient populations most related to you.

Isnt he more Iran N (Basal+ANE) than ASI?

bmoney
02-02-2018, 01:57 AM
Yeah, you scored quite a bit of Natufian and Bronze Age Levantine affinities, which are absent in the majority of South Asians, seem to indicate that you have Arab ancestry. Also, take a look at the similitude chart. You have affinities to Central and East Indians as well as Middle Easterners, to an extent.

good spot

Sapporo
02-02-2018, 02:07 AM
Precisely the question I also seeking an answer to. Why do we have a loose form of caste system even where Brahmins are no where to be found? Call it caste system or call it tribal social heirarchies or what have you. The presence of strictly occupational castes also adds to the confusion.


The thing is this tribal social hierarchy exists even among KPK Pashtuns (especially those in Swat and surrounding districts). I believe certain Yousafzai are considered to be the "original" and proper Pakhtuns while there are other Yousafzai who are considered adoptive or assimilated Yousafzai and are often associated with more menial/"lower class" jobs. I think it all extends back to the original Dardic/Indo-Aryan culture of the region. As most people know, Eastern Afghanistan/FATA/KPK were once predominately Indo-Aryan and Dardic culturally + linguistically. Social hierarchies similar to "caste" have been in this region for a millenia or more.

21150

bmoney
02-02-2018, 02:23 AM
The thing is this tribal social hierarchy exists even among KPK Pashtuns (especially those in Swat and surrounding districts). I believe certain Yousafzai are considered to be the "original" and proper Pakhtuns while there are other Yousafzai who are considered adoptive or assimilated Yousafzai and are often associated with more menial/"lower class" jobs. I think it all extends back to the original Dardic/Indo-Aryan culture of the region. As most people know, Eastern Afghanistan/FATA/KPK were once predominately Indo-Aryan and Dardic culturally + linguistically. Social hierarchies similar to "caste" have been in this region for a millenia or more.

21150

makes sense it traces the migration path of the z93 peoples

Mingle
02-02-2018, 02:40 AM
The thing is this tribal social hierarchy exists even among KPK Pashtuns (especially those in Swat and surrounding districts). I believe certain Yousafzai are considered to be the "original" and proper Pakhtuns while there are other Yousafzai who are considered adoptive or assimilated Yousafzai and are often associated with more menial/"lower class" jobs. I think it all extends back to the original Dardic/Indo-Aryan culture of the region. As most people know, Eastern Afghanistan/FATA/KPK were once predominately Indo-Aryan and Dardic culturally + linguistically. Social hierarchies similar to "caste" have been in this region for a millenia or more.

21150

Just to expand on this point, people that are considered to be assimilated Pashtuns among Yousafzai Pashtuns tend to have different terms to describe them. The only specific tribe/ethnicity I am aware of are the Maliars (https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/19454/PK). They aren't considered "assimilated Yousafzais" though. Nobody, including Maliars themselves, sees the Maliar people as Yousafzais. Not all of them are assimilated though, actually the majority of Maliars are Hindko/Punjabi-speaking people.

Maliars are the only example I can think of that are an Indic tribe and referred to by their tribal name. Other assimilated Pashtuns are referred to by the job they do (e.g. blacksmith, barber, priest/mullah, etc) rather than any tribal identity even though some 'original' (i.e. non-assimilated) Pashtuns have begun taking up these jobs more recently. By the way, I think Maliars are seen as non-Pashtuns whereas others (those referred to by their job description) are seen as 'assimilated Pashtuns'. Not sure if those that are described by their job are seen as Yousafzais, but I have strong doubts.

parasar
02-02-2018, 03:37 AM
Isnt he more Iran N (Basal+ANE) than ASI?

For most South Asians, our highest matches come with Ust. Especially for those from eastern India, Burma, Andamans, etc. Ust I refer to as ancestral ASI rather than ASI (the latter has been defined based on modern DNA)

Then ANE and then Iran Neolithic then Steppe.

Admixture calculators may put much of the common ancestry into an admixing element.

bmoney
02-02-2018, 03:54 AM
For most South Asians, our highest matches come with Ust. Especially for those from eastern India, Burma, Andamans, etc. Ust I refer to as ancestral ASI rather than ASI (the latter has been defined based on modern DNA)

Then ANE and then Iran Neolithic then Steppe.

Admixture calculators may put much of the common ancestry into an admixing element.

Yeah i understand but his match to 7000bc Iran is fairly higher than his match to Ust Ishim

parasar
02-02-2018, 05:14 AM
Yeah i understand but his match to 7000bc Iran is fairly higher than his match to Ust Ishim

Yes thanks for pointing that out.
A little surprising, but he indeed is skewing towards WC1 etc. I now wonder how close IVC was to WC1, Hotu etc.

bmoney
02-02-2018, 06:10 AM
Yes thanks for pointing that out.
A little surprising, but he indeed is skewing towards WC1 etc. I now wonder how close IVC was to WC1, Hotu etc.

Must be close to the IVC, as if it came via modern Iranian hed match the more modern samples compared to the older ones.

But hes still getting Caucacus and Armenia matches at relatively high levels

@Raza94 can you show us your Eurogenes ANE K7

Raza94
02-02-2018, 08:01 AM
Must be close to the IVC, as if it came via modern Iranian hed match the more modern samples compared to the older ones.

But hes still getting Caucacus and Armenia matches at relatively high levels

@Raza94 can you show us your Eurogenes ANE K7

21159

Here you go. No oracle for this one though

parasar
02-02-2018, 03:18 PM
Mine:
Population
ANE 29.12
ASE 18.23
WHG-UHG 6.16
East_Eurasian 5.33
West_African -
East_African 3.11
ENF 38.05

vs

Raza94
Population
ANE 28.10
ASE 16.40
WHG-UHG 2.97
East_Eurasian 5.26
West_African -
East_African 3.60
ENF 43.65

He has slighly higher ENF and lower WHG, otherwise pretty much in the same ballpark.

Raza94
02-02-2018, 05:40 PM
Mine:
Population
ANE 29.12
ASE 18.23
WHG-UHG 6.16
East_Eurasian 5.33
West_African -
East_African 3.11
ENF 38.05

vs

Raza94
Population
ANE 28.10
ASE 16.40
WHG-UHG 2.97
East_Eurasian 5.26
West_African -
East_African 3.60
ENF 43.65

He has slighly higher ENF and lower WHG, otherwise pretty much in the same ballpark.

Yea it does seem pretty similar. Where are you from? If you dont mind me asking

parasar
02-02-2018, 05:46 PM
Yea it does seem pretty similar. Where are you from? If you dont mind me asking

Saran, Bihar (my village is on the north bank of the Ganges where the Gandak and Ganges meet).



...
Rajput converting to Islam and calling themselves Pathans is something I have never heard in Pakistan. Where are these relatives of yours from?



Our line (Eksariya) did not convert and never adopted primogeniture so we are still Babhan (the Magadhi form of Brahman).
The relatives are all by marital relations.
Eg. the Hathwa Babhan family has Bisen Rajput relatives in Majhauli and Pathan relatives in Salimpur.
Others that have Rajput, Babhan, and Pathan counterparts - they go by the monikers Kinwar Pathan, Kamsar Pathan, Zamania Pathan. https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/description-of-major-muslim-communities-in-india-muslim-bhumihar-kamsari-pathan/

parasar
02-02-2018, 06:44 PM
Saran, Bihar (my village is on the north bank of the Ganges where the Gandak and Ganges meet).



Our line (Eksariya) did not convert and never adopted primogeniture so we are still Babhan (the Magadhi form of Brahman).
The relatives are all by marital relations.
Eg. the Hathwa Babhan family has Bisen Rajput relatives in Majhauli and Pathan relatives in Salimpur.
Others that have Rajput, Babhan, and Pathan counterparts. The go by the monikers Kinwar Pathan, Kamsar Pathan, Zamania Pathan. https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/description-of-major-muslim-communities-in-india-muslim-bhumihar-kamsari-pathan/

https://books.google.com/books?id=dxDWbsztdVQC&pg=PA193

One point to ponder is the name Pathan itself.

I have researched this title and not seen any satisfactory answer. The name itself may be of eastern origin and perhaps became popular in the Suri period. The Suris (who likely themselves were Rajput converts to Islam) established the town of Patan (modern Patna) on the banks of the Ganges. It happened (by chance in a way, but for strageic purpose) to be the same place where the ancient capital was established by Ajatasattu when he moves the capital from Rajagaha to Pataliputta. "It was he who built the fortress of Pālātiputta, which later became the capital of Magadha." http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/am/ajatasattu.htm

While the some of the rulers of Delhi (Ghori/Suri) are termed as Pathan, they were not at that time known as Pathans. I have not seen any proper derivation for Afghan or Pashtun either. Pakhtoon yes looks quite like the old Rg Vedic Pakth tribe.

jesus
02-02-2018, 07:02 PM
Yousefzada is no way Kashmiri surname, "zada" used for Tajiks generally , as well as "zadeh", though "zadeh" is more common with Iranians. He likely from Laghman or Eastern Kapisa. These people are just likely Persianized Dards. Velvet's family is from that region. Western Kapisa , Panjshir , Parwan are more like Ishkashimi Tajiks or Southern Pashtuns. This is in line with Khana's Arandu/Kunar results. My guess is Pashais will score in this range.

We have one full Tajik sample from that area(panjshir) and she scored 19-20% South Indian in Harappa(4-5% higher than proper Southenr Durranis and Certian ghilzais). There also a half panjshiri half wyte sample and he gets 8.5-9% South Indian on Harappa. They're pretty similar to eastern Pashtuns, but with a slight western shift. Their region had dardic influences historically speaking. I've seen few kabuli Tajiks with +20-21% South Indian. It's kinda ironic that they're more distant to Iranians, compared to Pashtun groups(despite the shared language and some cultural aspects). It just shows that genetics don't always correlate with culture and social attitudes.

I've seen a wardaki Pashtun on 23andme with significant Euro(probably highest in Afghan sample on 23andme). Maybe that explains Rukha's relative western shift.

bmoney
02-03-2018, 01:08 AM
Mine:
Population
ANE 29.12
ASE 18.23
WHG-UHG 6.16
East_Eurasian 5.33
West_African -
East_African 3.11
ENF 38.05

vs

Raza94
Population
ANE 28.10
ASE 16.40
WHG-UHG 2.97
East_Eurasian 5.26
West_African -
East_African 3.60
ENF 43.65

He has slighly higher ENF and lower WHG, otherwise pretty much in the same ballpark.

Thats elevated ENF - havent seen that in the SA results ive seen so far

Any samples that are higher @Sapporo?

khanabadoshi
02-03-2018, 01:18 AM
Thats elevated ENF - havent seen that in the SA results ive seen so far

Any samples that are higher @Sapporo?

Xehanort is higher I think. I have a few ANEk7 results (sorted by ENF):




ANE
ASE
WHG-UHG
East_Eurasian
West_African
East_African
ENF


BALOCH_HGDP0080
26.2
10.54
0.17
0
0.49
3.09
59.52


BALOCH_HGDP0052
27.45
11.77
1.66
0
0
2.4
56.71


BRAHUI_HGDP00001
27.04
11.23
1.61
0.89
0.84
3.14
55.25


BRAHUI_HGDP00041
27.62
12.42
6.02
0
0.17
1.76
52.01


BRAHUI_HGDP00029
22.54
10.44
1.93
1.67
3.49
11.61
48.32


PATHAN_HGDP00213
32.75
13.8
4.19
0
0.26
1.07
47.93


pUncle - .jam
29.76
15.07
2.08
2.68
0
3.28
47.14


2nd Cousin - Leghari
28.28
15.3
3.27
3.45
0.21
3.6
45.89


PJL_HG03235
29.73
16.48
0
4.83
0.5
3.04
45.41


Kharian [Gujjar] - Xehanort
30.8
16.73
1.78
3.06
0.13
2.49
45.02


Mohmand - Pashtun
29.32
10.85
8.72
3.99
0.32
1.82
44.97


mGFSister - .sadia
29.28
16.32
2.18
3.43
0
4.04
44.75


Myself
28.75
15.38
4.19
4.12
0.2
2.79
44.58


PJL_HG01593
30.39
16.15
2.84
2.68
0.27
3.48
44.2


PJL_HG03234
29.19
16.76
3.29
3.79
0.39
3.08
43.5


KALASH_HGDP00309
32.07
13.04
7.78
2.03
0.99
0.75
43.35


KALASH_HGDP00267
31.95
12.16
8.83
1.82
0
2.32
42.9


Sister
29.21
14.65
6.67
3.49
0
3.19
42.79


Hoshiarpuri - Rajput [Rana]
30.82
17.85
1.12
4.31
0
3.15
42.75


Brother
29.5
14.05
6.68
3.76
0
3.32
42.7


PJL_HG01586
28.51
18.15
2.62
6.24
0.71
1.95
41.81


PATHAN_HGDP00230
33.94
17.88
4.72
0
0.77
0.97
41.72


Multani - Syed/Durrani
29.13
15.94
6.35
3.94
0.95
2.13
41.56


Lahori - Rajput/Kashmiri
29.04
16.69
4.79
5.58
0
3.23
40.68


BURUSHO_HGDP00372
34.64
16.6
0
8.11
0.12
1.3
39.23


mAunt - balq Daughter
28.72
14.3
7.8
6.89
0.55
2.98
38.75


tdj252_ishkashim
28.78
9.67
15.74
6.8
0
1.58
37.43


Telugu [Reddy] - Kush
28.37
23.77
0
5.82
0.27
4.35
37.42


BURUSHO_HGDP00336
33.68
17.5
0.34
8.68
0.24
2.22
37.34


mGM - .balq
28.31
10.93
12.58
8.64
0.44
1.9
37.21


tdj447_ishkashim
28.92
8.69
18.11
7.42
0
0.83
36.05


mGM - Brother
26.69
10.23
13.89
12.41
0.38
1.86
34.55

pegasus
02-03-2018, 03:21 AM
We have one full Tajik sample from that area(panjshir) and she scored 19-20% South Indian in Harappa(4-5% higher than proper Southenr Durranis and Certian ghilzais). There also a half panjshiri half wyte sample and he gets 8.5-9% South Indian on Harappa. They're pretty similar to eastern Pashtuns, but with a slight western shift. Their region had dardic influences historically speaking. I've seen few kabuli Tajiks with +20-21% South Indian. It's kinda ironic that they're more distant to Iranians, compared to Pashtun groups(despite the shared language and some cultural aspects). It just shows that genetics don't always correlate with culture and social attitudes.

I've seen a wardaki Pashtun on 23andme with significant Euro(probably highest in Afghan sample on 23andme). Maybe that explains Rukha's relative western shift.

Yeah even in Nmonte , a lot of these Southern Pashtun have an Iranian shift ( Southern Iranian to be exact) , likely the Jiroft connection.

pegasus
02-03-2018, 04:21 AM
Yes thanks for pointing that out.
A little surprising, but he indeed is skewing towards WC1 etc. I now wonder how close IVC was to WC1, Hotu etc.

I think if they find a Neolithic sample from SE Iran/ SW Pakistan , that would be a better proxy. Southern Iranians get an extra 10-12% Pania like ancestry, I would think Mergarh would be on that cline probably more. I think actual IVC people will show diversity of types ranging from those Makrani/Brohi to the Pan South Asian type, to Tribal populations living in rural areas.
Pan South Asian type I mean PJL Chamar, Gujarati Patels, Banias, Urban Southern Indians , etc

surbakhunWeesste
02-03-2018, 04:45 AM
https://books.google.com/books?id=dxDWbsztdVQC&pg=PA193

One point to ponder is the name Pathan itself.

I have researched this title and not seen any satisfactory answer. The name itself may be of eastern origin and perhaps became popular in the Suri period. The Suris (who likely themselves were Rajput converts to Islam) established the town of Patan (modern Patna) on the banks of the Ganges. It happened (by chance in a way, but for strageic purpose) to be the same place where the ancient capital was established by Ajatasattu when he moves the capital from Rajagaha to Pataliputta. "It was he who built the fortress of Pālātiputta, which later became the capital of Magadha." http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/am/ajatasattu.htm

While the some of the rulers of Delhi (Ghori/Suri) are termed as Pathan, they were not at that time known as Pathans. I have not seen any proper derivation for Afghan or Pashtun either. Pakhtoon yes looks quite like the old Rg Vedic Pakth tribe.

Lol, you sometimes make riveting assumptions. Sher Shah Suri was an ethnic Afghan/Pashtun. Read Tarekh e SherShahi -Abbas Khan Sarwani.

Heir of Gandhara
02-03-2018, 05:03 AM
Lol, you sometimes make riveting assumptions. Sher Shah Suri was an ethnic Afghan/Pashtun. Read Tarekh e SherShahi -Abbas Khan Sarwani.
Suri indeed was a Pukhtoon as per my knowledge too. Moreover Ghori too was never confused for being a Pukhtoon cos it's well known that he spoke Persian and thus was either a Persianized Turk or a Tajik.

Xehanort
02-03-2018, 05:06 AM
I think if they find a Neolithic sample from SE Iran/ SW Pakistan , that would be a better proxy. Southern Iranians get an extra 10-12% Pania like ancestry, I would think Mergarh would be on that cline probably more. I think actual IVC people will show diversity of types ranging from those Makrani/Brohi to the Pan South Asian type, to Tribal populations living in rural areas.
Pan South Asian type I mean PJL Chamar, Gujarati Patels, Banias, Urban Southern Indians , etc

I don't think you're right there unless you mean Bandaris. Also, I don't think we can attribute the presence of the IVC here, you're overplaying it. But IVC was nonetheless fairly extended, having colonies as far as Afghanistan and possibly BMAC.

surbakhunWeesste
02-03-2018, 05:26 AM
Suri indeed was a Pukhtoon as per my knowledge too. Moreover Ghori too was never confused for being a Pukhtoon cos it's well known that he spoke Persian and thus was either a Persianized Turk or a Tajik.

Most likely east Iranic that means Tajiks and Pashtuns but not turke like his army.

pegasus
02-03-2018, 05:28 AM
I don't think you're right there unless you mean Bandaris. Also, I don't think we can attribute the presence of the IVC here, you're overplaying it. But IVC was nonetheless fairly extended, having colonies as far as Afghanistan and possibly BMAC.

I think its understood Southern Iranians are not Manzandranis by every one here. Mergarh is not the IVC, it precedes it by a couple thousand years, it represents the first farmers in South Asia, and guess where they came from ? How am I overplaying it , you are talking about a Bronze Age time frame and I am talking about the early Neolithic. First Farmers entered from Southern Iran, so logically they would be a better proxy than farmers on the Zagros.

Xehanort
02-03-2018, 05:34 AM
I think its understood Southern Iranians are not Manzandranis by every one here. Mergarh is not the IVC, it precedes it by a couple thousand years, it represents the first farmers in South Asia, and guess where they came from ? How am I overplaying it , you are talking about a Bronze Age time frame and I am talking about the early Neolithic. First Farmers entered from Southern Iran, so logically they would be a better proxy than farmers on the Zagros.

Interesting, can you provide references? I need to read up on this. I thought the farmers originated in the Zagros and were later displaced by Anatolian migrants. Could you please link me the relevant studies, thanks. Also, I was not talking about Mehrgarh but that colony: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Indus_Valley_Civilization%2C_Mature_Phase_%282600-1900_BCE%29.png

Xehanort
02-03-2018, 07:19 AM
21159

Here you go. No oracle for this one though

I was going through your results, and on one of the oracles I picked this up:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.7% Gujarati + 12.3% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.61
2 87.3% Gujarati + 12.7% Iranian_Jewish @ 4.64
3 83.7% Kshatriya + 16.3% Iranian @ 4.65
4 88.4% Gujarati + 11.6% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.67
5 88.3% Gujarati + 11.7% Palestinian @ 4.71
6 88.5% Gujarati + 11.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.72
7 85.3% Gujarati + 14.7% Iranian @ 4.74
8 88.1% Gujarati + 11.9% Jordanian @ 4.79
9 86.5% Kshatriya + 13.5% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.8
10 84.5% Kshatriya + 15.5% Kurdish @ 4.8
11 89.8% Gujarati + 10.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.83
12 88.6% Gujarati + 11.4% Samaritan @ 4.84
13 54.7% Uttar_Pradesh + 45.3% Balochi @ 4.85
14 86% Gujarati + 14% Kurdish @ 4.85
15 58.2% Kanjar + 41.8% Balochi @ 4.86
16 87.6% Gujarati + 12.4% Syrian @ 4.86
17 75.2% Kshatriya + 24.8% Makrani @ 4.86
18 87.8% Gujarati + 12.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.86
19 87.6% Gujarati + 12.4% Assyrian @ 4.87
20 85.8% Gujarati + 14.2% Azeri @ 4.89

Interesting, usually K15 V2 does not show MENA admixture in South Asians like this, it's rare. So, I do genuinely think you have an Arab/Iranian hybrid ancestor somewhere down the line, hence the affinities towards Iranian and Kurdish Jews, as well as Druze, Lebanese, Palestinians, etc. Thoughts?

Raza94
02-03-2018, 07:30 AM
I was going through your results, and on one of the oracles I picked this up:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.7% Gujarati + 12.3% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.61
2 87.3% Gujarati + 12.7% Iranian_Jewish @ 4.64
3 83.7% Kshatriya + 16.3% Iranian @ 4.65
4 88.4% Gujarati + 11.6% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.67
5 88.3% Gujarati + 11.7% Palestinian @ 4.71
6 88.5% Gujarati + 11.5% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.72
7 85.3% Gujarati + 14.7% Iranian @ 4.74
8 88.1% Gujarati + 11.9% Jordanian @ 4.79
9 86.5% Kshatriya + 13.5% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.8
10 84.5% Kshatriya + 15.5% Kurdish @ 4.8
11 89.8% Gujarati + 10.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.83
12 88.6% Gujarati + 11.4% Samaritan @ 4.84
13 54.7% Uttar_Pradesh + 45.3% Balochi @ 4.85
14 86% Gujarati + 14% Kurdish @ 4.85
15 58.2% Kanjar + 41.8% Balochi @ 4.86
16 87.6% Gujarati + 12.4% Syrian @ 4.86
17 75.2% Kshatriya + 24.8% Makrani @ 4.86
18 87.8% Gujarati + 12.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.86
19 87.6% Gujarati + 12.4% Assyrian @ 4.87
20 85.8% Gujarati + 14.2% Azeri @ 4.89

Interesting, usually K15 V2 does not show MENA admixture in South Asians like this, it's rare. So, I do genuinely think you have an Arab/Iranian hybrid ancestor somewhere down the line, hence the affinities towards Iranian and Kurdish Jews, as well as Druze, Lebanese, Palestinians, etc. Thoughts?

Wow thats interesting. Obviously we believe we have some Arab ancestors because we call ourselves "Syed" but I honestly did not think we had any.

Xehanort
02-03-2018, 07:38 AM
Wow thats interesting. Obviously we believe we have some Arab ancestors because we call ourselves "Syed" but I honestly did not think we had any.

No, I think you do, but I think there was some hybridization with native populations a while back. Furthermore, you also show Natufian signals and Middle Eastern signals on many tests. So...

I am fairly confident you have some Arab ancestry. Now, I don't know what's the best way to test it. I would advise against testing your parents unless you keep it a secret because it may be that only one of your parents shows MENA signals.

misanthropy
02-03-2018, 07:38 AM
Wow thats interesting. Obviously we believe we have some Arab ancestors because we call ourselves "Syed" but I honestly did not think we had any.

Interesting. Do you know your your family story or whatever?

Here's mine in comparison.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.2% Dharkar + 6.8% Saudi @ 4.81
2 94% Dharkar + 6% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 4.89
3 94.1% Dharkar + 5.9% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 4.91
4 92.8% Dharkar + 7.2% Bedouin @ 4.94
5 76.2% Piramalai + 23.8% Tadjik @ 5.01
6 93.2% Dharkar + 6.8% Egyptian @ 5.06
7 93.8% Dharkar + 6.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.11
8 93.1% Dharkar + 6.9% Jordanian @ 5.14
9 91.5% Kanjar + 8.5% Saudi @ 5.16
10 79.5% Chamar + 20.5% Kabardin @ 5.17
11 90.8% Kanjar + 9.2% Bedouin @ 5.17
12 82.5% Kurumba + 17.5% Tadjik @ 5.19
13 92.9% Dharkar + 7.1% Syrian @ 5.19
14 93.3% Dharkar + 6.7% Palestinian @ 5.19
15 94.7% Dharkar + 5.3% Somali @ 5.2
16 92.1% Dharkar + 7.9% Iranian @ 5.21
17 79.8% Chamar + 20.2% Adygei @ 5.22
18 79.9% Chamar + 20.1% Ossetian @ 5.24
19 94.7% Dharkar + 5.3% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 5.25
20 92.3% Dharkar + 7.7% Azeri @ 5.27


Mine:
Population
ANE 29.12
ASE 18.23
WHG-UHG 6.16
East_Eurasian 5.33
West_African -
East_African 3.11
ENF 38.05

vs

Raza94
Population
ANE 28.10
ASE 16.40
WHG-UHG 2.97
East_Eurasian 5.26
West_African -
East_African 3.60
ENF 43.65

He has slighly higher ENF and lower WHG, otherwise pretty much in the same ballpark.

Mine:

Population
ANE 26.65
ASE 19.58
WHG-UHG -
East_Eurasian 8.06
West_African -
East_African 5.89
ENF 39.82

bmoney
02-04-2018, 01:19 AM
Interesting. Do you know your your family story or whatever?

Here's mine in comparison.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.2% Dharkar + 6.8% Saudi @ 4.81
2 94% Dharkar + 6% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 4.89
3 94.1% Dharkar + 5.9% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 4.91
4 92.8% Dharkar + 7.2% Bedouin @ 4.94
5 76.2% Piramalai + 23.8% Tadjik @ 5.01
6 93.2% Dharkar + 6.8% Egyptian @ 5.06
7 93.8% Dharkar + 6.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.11
8 93.1% Dharkar + 6.9% Jordanian @ 5.14
9 91.5% Kanjar + 8.5% Saudi @ 5.16
10 79.5% Chamar + 20.5% Kabardin @ 5.17
11 90.8% Kanjar + 9.2% Bedouin @ 5.17
12 82.5% Kurumba + 17.5% Tadjik @ 5.19
13 92.9% Dharkar + 7.1% Syrian @ 5.19
14 93.3% Dharkar + 6.7% Palestinian @ 5.19
15 94.7% Dharkar + 5.3% Somali @ 5.2
16 92.1% Dharkar + 7.9% Iranian @ 5.21
17 79.8% Chamar + 20.2% Adygei @ 5.22
18 79.9% Chamar + 20.1% Ossetian @ 5.24
19 94.7% Dharkar + 5.3% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 5.25
20 92.3% Dharkar + 7.7% Azeri @ 5.27



Mine:

Population
ANE 26.65
ASE 19.58
WHG-UHG -
East_Eurasian 8.06
West_African -
East_African 5.89
ENF 39.82

Thats some interesting oracles

Raza94
02-04-2018, 07:16 AM
Interesting. Do you know your your family story or whatever?

Here's mine in comparison.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.2% Dharkar + 6.8% Saudi @ 4.81
2 94% Dharkar + 6% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 4.89
3 94.1% Dharkar + 5.9% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 4.91
4 92.8% Dharkar + 7.2% Bedouin @ 4.94
5 76.2% Piramalai + 23.8% Tadjik @ 5.01
6 93.2% Dharkar + 6.8% Egyptian @ 5.06
7 93.8% Dharkar + 6.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 5.11
8 93.1% Dharkar + 6.9% Jordanian @ 5.14
9 91.5% Kanjar + 8.5% Saudi @ 5.16
10 79.5% Chamar + 20.5% Kabardin @ 5.17
11 90.8% Kanjar + 9.2% Bedouin @ 5.17
12 82.5% Kurumba + 17.5% Tadjik @ 5.19
13 92.9% Dharkar + 7.1% Syrian @ 5.19
14 93.3% Dharkar + 6.7% Palestinian @ 5.19
15 94.7% Dharkar + 5.3% Somali @ 5.2
16 92.1% Dharkar + 7.9% Iranian @ 5.21
17 79.8% Chamar + 20.2% Adygei @ 5.22
18 79.9% Chamar + 20.1% Ossetian @ 5.24
19 94.7% Dharkar + 5.3% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 5.25
20 92.3% Dharkar + 7.7% Azeri @ 5.27



Mine:

Population
ANE 26.65
ASE 19.58
WHG-UHG -
East_Eurasian 8.06
West_African -
East_African 5.89
ENF 39.82

We say we are descendants from someone named Syed Abdul Qadir Giliani. We also have a shrine in our village located in Pir Kot Sadhana, Punjab.

Other than that not much. But from what I have searched up we have been using the Syed name since at least the 1800s it looks like

misanthropy
02-04-2018, 07:28 AM
We say we are descendants from someone named Syed Abdul Qadir Giliani. We also have a shrine in our village located in Pir Kot Sadhana, Punjab.

Other than that not much. But from what I have searched up we have been using the Syed name since at least the 1800s it looks like

Hey, same exact story for my mom's side. Some particular families don't look Indian AT ALL. There was a lot of intermarrying. I feel they resemble a lot of those upper Middle Eastern countries in your oracle, but yeah a dna test would be interesting. I've actually shown a picture of my cousins to a Syrian friend of mine at school and he said they looked kinda Palestinian.

They have an old family tree document as well back in India. I've likely inherited more of my paternal side, though, as people say at gatherings. I need to get my brother tested.

I wonder how your results compare with others from closest to your region.

Raza94
02-04-2018, 05:14 PM
Hey, same exact story for my mom's side. Some particular families don't look Indian AT ALL. There was a lot of intermarrying. I feel they resemble a lot of those upper Middle Eastern countries in your oracle, but yeah a dna test would be interesting. I've actually shown a picture of my cousins to a Syrian friend of mine at school and he said they looked kinda Palestinian.

They have an old family tree document as well back in India. I've likely inherited more of my paternal side, though, as people say at gatherings. I need to get my brother tested.

I wonder how your results compare with others from closest to your region.

We have a family tree as well from the paternal side but it does not go back that far. I'm guessing before than we were not Syed though

khanabadoshi
02-05-2018, 02:35 AM
We say we are descendants from someone named Syed Abdul Qadir Giliani. We also have a shrine in our village located in Pir Kot Sadhana, Punjab.

Other than that not much. But from what I have searched up we have been using the Syed name since at least the 1800s it looks like


Hey, same exact story for my mom's side. Some particular families don't look Indian AT ALL. There was a lot of intermarrying. I feel they resemble a lot of those upper Middle Eastern countries in your oracle, but yeah a dna test would be interesting. I've actually shown a picture of my cousins to a Syrian friend of mine at school and he said they looked kinda Palestinian.

They have an old family tree document as well back in India. I've likely inherited more of my paternal side, though, as people say at gatherings. I need to get my brother tested.

I wonder how your results compare with others from closest to your region.

Part of the reason I'm trying to gather a wide variety of Arab/MENA results is for you guys. If we have a lot of South Asian results and a lot of West Asian results, and we can establish your predominant ancestry in South Asian, then we can draw a line in the direction of your pull towards specific West Asian ethnic groups. Coupled with historical facts of our regions, we can eliminate some West Asians and include others. This will help in at least help you guys narrow some things down.

Raza94
02-05-2018, 04:47 AM
Thank you brother! It seems like thats the only way to really figure it out or have a good idea of it