View Full Version : Big discovery : an unresolved Haplogroup A sample from Kuwait

01-29-2018, 03:34 PM
I've found a very interesting haplogroup A case in the Kuwait project at FTDNA. It is one of a kind and as I've never witnessed anything close to it not even in Africa, I can safely say that it does not belong to any known branch. It exhibits some quite deviant values for some STR markers, such as DYS472 = 9 (this is the slowest marker of all). Because this marker is so slow, it can almost function as a reliable SNP, so I thought about a link with haplogroup A1a which also has DYS472 = 9, but this kuwaiti sample tested positive for L419, one of the defining SNPs for A1b1, thus ruling out A1a. Some other deviant values are DYS413 = 15-16 and YCAII = 16-18. Relationship with ''A2'' and ''A3'' should also be investigated, but so far I didn't come across any haplotype that is close to it, hence why I said it is not under any known clade. No known sample of ''A2'', ''A3a'' or ''A3b'' are even close to it. This one instance, being from the Middle East, is extremely crucial in perfecting our knowledge about ancient human migrations from Africa into Eurasia. Given that the estimates for A1b1 puts it at about 130kya and that this kuwaiti looks basal within it, it could even be that this is a remnant of what we usually refer to as a local ancient extinct offshoot of anatomically modern human populations, represented by Skhul and Qafzeh which are of similar dates !!! Upgrading the sample to test other SNPs should help us better grasp this very important matter and should be of primary concern.

01-29-2018, 06:08 PM
Big Y or FGC will be necessary tests.

01-29-2018, 06:20 PM
Yeah, it would be nice to see Big Ys for these rare lineages. There's also DE*, which has been languishing for 15 years now.

01-29-2018, 06:20 PM
There is a high possibility that this person is of African origin, since my gulf/Kuwait inhabitants are of African origins.

01-30-2018, 12:21 AM
Yes of course there's a possibility for this particular individual to be of recent african origin, this is exactly what I've been trying to investigate. And based on my numerous searches, I was not able to locate a similar haplotype anywhere at all. I'm familiar with haplotypes from every ''A'' clade and I can tell you for sure that this one is very different and deviant. So it is either basal within A1b1 as a whole, or at least within either ''A2'' or A3''. If only the ''A2'' sample and the ''A3b*'' one we have in FTDNA's haplogrop A project were also tested for all the Y-STRs, I could infer its position in the A1b1 tree. If someone is aware about some extended ''A2'' and ''A3'' haplotypes, that would be perfect. It's a shame that most studies fail to test markers as meaningful as DYS426, DYS388, YCAII and many more. The ''slow markers'' and also reliable dual copies markers are the best to identify ancient branches, hence why they should always be tested.

However, at least we have Y-STR 111 haplotypes for A1a and ''A3b2'', and when comparing them with the Kuwaiti, any closer link - as we would expect from its L419+ status - with ''A3b2'' relative to A1a is blurred so that they all appear kind of equidistant with each other, thus most likely indicating that it could in fact really be at the base of A1b1.

05-19-2018, 10:23 PM
I am no expert by any means. I see this guy (Famiy tree. IN16735, H.H. A-PH856) and he has the big-y tested or at least Y-111. I checked the values u mentioned but it's not as you said. I know this guy personally. i know his name till the 15 grand fathers. there is no way that he has an African lineage. Please in light me. and tell me what his test says. please. And i want to know what is his closest ancestor like 2000 years ago or 1000 yrs-ago. please help me.