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bmoney
01-31-2018, 01:32 PM
Hi Guys

Thought id create a thread to discuss Razibs ongoing findings as it pertains to SAs


The non-Brahmin and non-Dalit samples in the 1000 Genomes are not much partitioned much by geography. The Tamil vs. Telugu difference is smaller than that between the British and Irish. Within Tamil Nadu Brahmins though are nearly as different from typical Tamils as Poles are from the English (most of the British sample is English). The biggest differences in Europe are between Sicilians and Northern European groups, which similar in a degree to that between South Indians and Pakistanis.

Treemix

21118

21119

Radial Plot

21120

Treemix from an earlier post

21121

bmoney
01-31-2018, 01:39 PM
Razib on the caste system


There was something curious about the samples from Pakistan and Bangladesh. Aside from a small number of individuals, whose samples were collected at the same time judging by their IDs (these individuals cluster with Scheduled Castes), the Bangladeshi sample didn’t have much South Asian style structure. That is, there wasn’t a cline or lots substructure within the ethnicity.

As noted by some commenters, the Punjabi samples were very different. Like the Gujurati samples, there was a huge variance along the ANI-ASI cline. To me, this was somewhat surprising.

Using Treemix produced some weird results. As you can see above Punjabi_ANI_1 looks like an Iranian population with gene flow from Punjabi_ANI_3. Punjabi ANI_2 looks like a North Indian population with Iranian gene flow (so it is more ASI). Punjabi_ANI_3 are less ANI shifted than Uttar Pradesh Brahmins, but more than Uttar Pradesh Kshatriya. Finally, Punjabi_ANI_4 actually is very similar to Punjabi_ANI_2, except it has gene flow from a Dalit-like population.

I don’t know what’s going on here. Is this really caste-like structure in Punjab? Or are we see lots of admixture of people who are called “Punjabi” today? For example, the gene flow edges suggest lots of mixing between quite South Asian types of groups and an Iranian sort. Perhaps this is the absorption of Pathans into South Asian groups? Could it be Muhajir people who mixed with local Punjabis and identified as such?

As you can see with Treemix, no. Jatts are just very ANI-shifted. I added Lithuanians and Georgians, and you can see that Uttar Pradesh Brahmins get gene flow from a Lithuanian shifted group, while South Indian Brahmins have a more Georgian gene flow. This is just an artifact I suspect of the fact that South Indian Brahmins have a lot of admixture from non-Brahmin South Indians, who are more Georgian than Lithuanian (Iran_N as opposed to Yamnaya).

If Punjab has such deep caste-like structures it really goes to show how within South Asia caste is a very very powerful institution, and ~1,000 years of Muslim rule and in western Punjab a majority Muslim population did not break down the institution. In contrast, in Bangladesh, there doesn’t seem to be much caste structure. I am routinely the most East Asian shifted Bengali in datasets, but my family is also from the eastern edge of eastern Bengal. Why the difference?

In the comment section on South India & Bengal


it looks to me that as in south india bengal had three groups

brahmins
non-brahmins & non-dalits/tribals
dalits/tribals

no theory. i’m frankly surprised that chamars from UP are so like dalits from south.

prashantvaidwan
01-31-2018, 06:09 PM
Can u please elaborate term "Ani shifted"?

bmoney
01-31-2018, 10:36 PM
Can u please elaborate term "Ani shifted"?

Ancestral North Indian

He's referring to ANI as a steppe + neolithic Iran hybrid

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/how-genetics-is-settling-the-aryan-migration-debate/article19090301.ece

poi
02-01-2018, 06:42 AM
Razib on the caste system



In the comment section on South India & Bengal:

iím frankly surprised that chamars from UP are so like dalits from south.

I just finished the preliminary HarappaWorld PCA (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13310-HarappaWorld-PCAs) and the Tamil-Dalit and UP-Chamar are so close to each other (the 1st quadrant):

https://i.imgur.com/rryUyh2.png

bmoney
02-01-2018, 07:03 AM
I just finished the preliminary HarappaWorld PCA (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13310-HarappaWorld-PCAs) and the Tamil-Dalit and UP-Chamar are so close to each other (the 1st quadrant):

Wow dude you definitely deserve a high quality single malt for this or perhaps a Yamazaki - what were the 2 components on the scale

Also im guessing you used my combined kit

Punjab Pahari zone - Punjab shifted towards Baloch and Paharis more East/Munda pulled - closest to the Hunza and Kalash people on one side and the Brahmins from North/Central India on the other side
Brahmins from UP/Central India are in a mid segment between Punjab and Central zone
Central zone - middle castes from Gujarat Rajasthan to UP, South Indian Brahmins and Kerala middle castes (im sure Karnataka middle castes will also fall here but no samples)
North/Central/East India/South non-high-caste zone - surprisingly some of the UP Bihar samples are more Pulliyar shifted than Sri Lankan - South indian low castes in general more skewed towards Pulliyar
Munda zone - Jharkhand Orissa low castes/tribes

Can you chuck Bangladesh samples in here? and chuck Kush in here as well

Whats pulling Gujarati A so north?

poi
02-01-2018, 07:15 AM
Wow dude you definitely deserve a high quality single malt for this or perhaps a Yamazaki - what were the 2 components on the scale

Also im guessing you used my combined kit

Punjab Pahari zone - Punjab shifted towards Baloch and Paharis more East/Munda pulled - closest to the Hunza and Kalash people on one side and the Brahmins from North/Central India on the other side
Brahmins from UP/Central India are in a mid segment between Punjab and Central zone
Central zone - middle castes from Gujarat Rajasthan to UP, South Indian Brahmins and Kerala middle castes (im sure Karnataka middle castes will also fall here but no samples)
North/Central/East India/South non-high-caste zone - surprisingly some of the UP Bihar samples are more Pulliyar shifted than Sri Lankan - South indian low castes in general more skewed towards Pulliyar
Munda zone - Jharkhand Orissa low castes/tribes

Can you chuck Bangladesh samples in here? and chuck Kush in here as well

Whats pulling Gujarati A so north?

Created a thread about it with the biplot that answers your question. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13310-HarappaWorld-PCAs

SouthIndian is pulling into the 1st quadrant, while Baloch is pulling into the 2nd quadrant. Interestingly, Caucasian+NE-Euro+Siberian+NE-Asian+SW-Asian are all pulling into the 3rd quadrant! And the 4th quadrant, is SE-Asian+Papuan.

jortita
02-01-2018, 09:42 AM
I just finished the preliminary HarappaWorld PCA (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13310-HarappaWorld-PCAs) and the Tamil-Dalit and UP-Chamar are so close to each other (the 1st quadrant):

https://i.imgur.com/rryUyh2.png

Thank you very much, my only concern with Harappa is that it is an outdated calculator and it needs an update

bmoney
03-13-2018, 08:58 AM
Razibs latest SA findings with my commentary in red:

There are several things I can tell you. For example, I have samples for a Sindhi and Gujarati Lohanna. They cluster near each other, and with Sindhis. Similarly, a Gujarati Muslim sample is also in with the Sindhis. A Gujarati Muslim gives the same results. - Lot of Gujjus with undiluted Sindhi ancestry

In contrast, other Gujaratis are placed between Pakistani populations and South Indians. A Vania and Solanki sample helped me label “Gujarati Middle Caste.” The Gujarati Patel samples, in contrast, are even more shifted toward South Indians, and admixture analysis implies less Indo-Aryan in these samples than other Gujaratis. - Gujarati Patels look like a less ASI admixed version of modern non-Brahmin non-dalit South Indians

Gujarat seems to be a state with a lot of connections to Sindh, so you see a wide range of variation in this state on the ANI-ASI cline.

I’ve collected enough Brahmin samples from the four states of Southern India to see that they are very similar genetically (one exception is a Niyogi Brahmin who seemed more ASI-shifted than usual). If they don’t come from the same migration event, they diverged at around the same time.

Brahmins from North India are different from South Indian Brahmins, in being more ANI-shifted. It seems that to a great extent Brahmins from outside the Gangetic heartland can be modeled as North Indian Brahmins with local admixture. Bengali and Maharashtra Brahmins have shifted away from North Indian Brahmins, but not as much as South Indian Brahmins. Bengali Brahmins are also East Asian shifted, confirming the reality of local admixture. - looks like Bengali, Marathi and Dravida Brahmins are Gangetic Plains Brahmins with additional local admixture

One result that surprises me is how genetically similar Dalits from North and South India are. The Chamar samples from Uttar Pradesh seem to have some levels of Indo-Aryan admixture, but overall they’re not that different from Dalits from Tamil Nadu. - agricultural elite vs outcastes, as pegasus suggested this may go back to the IVC

Additionally, non-Brahmin and non-Dalit individuals from places like Bengal and Tamil Nadu/Sri Lanka, and Andhra Pradesh are very distinct from Dalits. In other words, the caste system is not simple the traditional upper castes vs. everyone else, but it’s deeply structured. The implication here is that caste may predate the Indo-Aryans (this is not a new inference). Or at least not be related them.
- what did i say bitchezz

Finally, there is a curious pattern where gene flow into southern Pakistan (Sindh) is more shifted toward the Middle East than in northern Pakistan (Punjab, the Pathan areas). I suspect this is due to dynamics which date deep into prehistory, rather than more recent events - Iran_N to steppe cline with additional Caucasian brought by the Baloch IMO

bmoney
03-13-2018, 11:26 AM
Earlier post, so much for AA IVC part 2

One debate in relation to the Munda people is whether they are primal and indigenous, or whether they are intrusive. The genetic data strongly point to the likelihood that they are intrusive. An earlier estimate of coalescence for O2a in South Asia suggested a deep history, but these dates have always been sensitive to assumptions, and more recent analysis of O2a diversity suggests that the locus is mainland Southeast Asia.

I now believe it is likely that the presence of Austro-Asiatic, Dravidian, and Indo-Aryan languages in India proper was a feature of the period after ~4,000 years ago. None of the languages of the hunter-gatherer populations of the subcontinent remain, with the possible exception of isolates such as Nihali and Kusunda. The language the ASI component spoke has no descendants except Nihali and Kusunda

And yet as the map at the end of the preprint suggests it is highly plausible that Pleistocene Asia was marked by a south to north dynamic of migration. a lot of genetic data indicate decreased diversity as one moves from the south to the north in East Asia. This has long been taken to mean that humans migrated north, and so were subject to bottleneck effects. I pointed out that this may simply be a consequence of admixture between two very different groups of people in Southeast Asia, elevating diversity statistics.- Melanesians (Onge/Papuan), Tai, AA and Tibeto Burmans might have all developed in SE Asia/Southern China with northern movements from this area being more bottlenecked and drifted such as NE Asians (still O dominant). Ancestor of haplogroup R and Q, Hap P developed among these SE Asian pops. Basically all the K2 pops ancestry started here suggesting it was a major cradle of civilisation

MonkeyDLuffy
03-13-2018, 12:13 PM
I just finished the preliminary HarappaWorld PCA (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13310-HarappaWorld-PCAs) and the Tamil-Dalit and UP-Chamar are so close to each other (the 1st quadrant):

https://i.imgur.com/rryUyh2.png

Can you add Punjabi Nai results to this as well?

Population Percent
1 Baloch 42.96
2 S-Indian 34.29
3 Caucasian 8.11
4 NE-Euro 6.96
5 SW-Asian 2.09
6 Siberian 1.7
7 Mediterranean 1.6
8 American 1.22
9 NE-Asian 1.07