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MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 02:10 PM
We don't have a dedicated thread for Sindhis, So I'll be posting results of Sindhis (Hindus and muslims) in this thread along with Kit numbers and Halogroups. Feel free to contribute.

Hindu Sindhi (Khiatani), Mtdna - H #M446316

1 Baloch 39.86
2 S-Indian 28.46
3 Caucasian 18.43
4 NE-Euro 9.38
5 SW-Asian 1.54
6 American 1.17
7 Beringian 0.93
8 Papuan 0.12
9 Pygmy 0.09

____________________________________

Hindu Sindhi (Ramchandani) mtdna - U1a1, #M437729

1 Baloch 40.6
2 S-Indian 30.38
3 Caucasian 15.52
4 NE-Euro 8.35
5 SW-Asian 1.61
6 Beringian 1.42
7 Siberian 0.9
8 American 0.61
9 Papuan 0.38
10 Mediterranean 0.23

________________________________________

Hindu Sindhi (Bhutani) #A304956

1 Baloch 40.85
2 S-Indian 28.47
3 Caucasian 14.35
4 NE-Euro 8.4
5 NE-Asian 2.89
6 SW-Asian 2.47
7 American 1.48
8 Mediterranean 0.83
9 Siberian 0.14
10 Beringian 0.11

_________________________________________

Hindu Sindhi (Motwani) Ydna - R1a1a, Mtdna - M3a1

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 41.05
2 S-Indian 28.21
3 Caucasian 15.59
4 NE-Euro 8.95
5 SW-Asian 2.56
6 Siberian 1.52
7 American 1.14
8 Beringian 0.41
9 San 0.32
10 Papuan 0.25

_______________________________________

Sindhi Hindu (Ramchandani) Mtdna - W4, Ydna - J2b2 #M679069

1 Baloch 41.91
2 S-Indian 26.26
3 Caucasian 17.26
4 NE-Euro 9.05
5 American 1.66
6 SW-Asian 1.31
7 Beringian 1.07
8 NE-Asian 0.66
9 E-African 0.47
10 Siberian 0.19
11 W-African 0.09
12 Papuan 0.05

_____________________________________________

Hindu Sindhi (Asrani) #M847745

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 40.35
2 S-Indian 29.15
3 Caucasian 14.99
4 NE-Euro 9.67
5 SW-Asian 2.03
6 Siberian 1.69
7 Papuan 0.98
8 American 0.6
9 Beringian 0.44
10 SE-Asian 0.1

Tirunelvi
02-01-2018, 07:36 PM
What is the reason why these Hindu Sindhis score minor amounts of SW-Asian?. I have a Sindhi Sikh relative on 23andme relative finder with the last name Ahuja who scores 1.7% Middle Eastern on Ancestry Composition as well.

passion
02-01-2018, 07:43 PM
What is the reason why these Hindu Sindhis score minor amounts of SW-Asian?. I have a Sindhi Sikh relative on 23andme relative finder with the last name Ahuja who scores 1.7% Middle Eastern on Ancestry Composition as well.

Sindhis are mixed with Balochs some time back.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-01-2018, 07:58 PM
What is the reason why these Hindu Sindhis score minor amounts of SW-Asian?. I have a Sindhi Sikh relative on 23andme relative finder with the last name Ahuja who scores 1.7% Middle Eastern on Ancestry Composition as well.

Ahuja are khatris. And all these sindhis have Khatris as closest matches. Makes me wonder if Khatris migrated from Sindh because they score high Caucasian just like Sindhis as well.

Sapporo
02-01-2018, 09:38 PM
Sindhi Lohana (Shikarpur) - Kit No. M125900

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 39.08
2 S-Indian 29.54
3 Caucasian 13
4 NE-Euro 10.26
5 Siberian 2.49
6 SW-Asian 1.75
7 Mediterranean 1.58
8 NE-Asian 1.2
9 American 0.7
10 Papuan 0.32
11 SE-Asian 0.08

Sindhi Memon - Kit No. M877076

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 42.1
2 S-Indian 29.49
3 Caucasian 14
4 NE-Euro 9.27
5 SW-Asian 1.63
6 Beringian 1.33
7 NE-Asian 0.96
8 American 0.74
9 Papuan 0.28
10 SE-Asian 0.13
11 Siberian 0.06

Sapporo
02-02-2018, 01:42 AM
Sindhis are mixed with Balochs some time back.

Many Muslim Sindhis are (it explains the inflated Baloch numbers) but I'm not sure if that explains it for Hindu Sindhis. It is probably a factor of geography too. Sindh is the closest South Asian region to Balochistan (and indirectly the Arabian sea; which had many merchants) other than Southwest Pakistani Punjab (Saraiki areas).


You can see the individual results of Muslim Sindhis from the HGDP samples below:

http://www.harappadna.org/2013/07/gujaratis-harappaworld-admixture/

There are some major outliers with extremely high Baloch scores (close to the Baloch/Brahui themselves) or very notable West African admixture (likely from Siddi or Makrani).

Mingle
02-04-2018, 12:00 AM
Could you guys post some oracle results?

Mingle
02-04-2018, 12:03 AM
Many Muslim Sindhis are (it explains the inflated Baloch numbers) but I'm not sure if that explains it for Hindu Sindhis. It is probably a factor of geography too. Sindh is the closest South Asian region to Balochistan (and indirectly the Arabian sea; which had many merchants) other than Southwest Pakistani Punjab (Saraiki areas).


You can see the individual results of Muslim Sindhis from the HGDP samples below:

http://www.harappadna.org/2013/07/gujaratis-harappaworld-admixture/

There are some major outliers with extremely high Baloch scores (close to the Baloch/Brahui themselves) or very notable West African admixture (likely from Siddi or Makrani).

Are almost all Sindhi Muslims mixed with Baloch? If not, then how much would you speculate? Half?

I suspect Sindhi Muslims to be closer to Baloches than to Gujaratis whereas the opposite would be true for Sindhi Hindus. Are my assumptions correct?

Sapporo
02-04-2018, 12:20 AM
Are almost all Sindhi Muslims mixed with Baloch? If not, then how much would you speculate? Half?

I suspect Sindhi Muslims to be closer to Baloches than to Gujaratis whereas the opposite would be true for Sindhi Hindus. Are my assumptions correct?

I really can't say what percentage of Sindhi Muslims have Baloch admixture. I don't really have any sources to base it upon other than the results of the HGDP Sindhi samples. Some have extremely high Baloch scores near the HGDP Baloch/Brahui/Makrani themselves and others have notable West African admixture implying they are admixed. As for Sindhi Hindus, the only real notable difference between them and the HGDP Sindhis I've seen is they score more of the Caucasus component and slightly more NE Euro or steppe related stuff while scoring lower Baloch and lower SW Asian or occasionally minimal amount of SSA. So, while Hindu Sindhis might have a pull toward "upper caste" Gujaratis such as Gujarati A's or Lohana types (originally from Sindh), they aren't really closer to Gujaratis as a whole. They pull toward the HGDP Pathan/Kalash rather than the HGDP Baloch/Brahui.

bmoney
02-04-2018, 12:57 AM
Sindhis are mixed with Balochs some time back.

Or they both have common ancestry

bmoney
02-04-2018, 01:11 AM
I really can't say what percentage of Sindhi Muslims have Baloch admixture. I don't really have any sources to base it upon other than the results of the HGDP Sindhi samples. Some have extremely high Baloch scores near the HGDP Baloch/Brahui/Makrani themselves and others have notable West African admixture implying they are admixed. As for Sindhi Hindus, the only real notable difference between them and the HGDP Sindhis I've seen is they score more of the Caucasus component and slightly more NE Euro or steppe related stuff while scoring lower Baloch and lower SW Asian or occasionally minimal amount of SSA. So, while Hindu Sindhis might have a pull toward "upper caste" Gujaratis such as Gujarati A's or Lohana types (originally from Sindh), they aren't really closer to Gujaratis as a whole. They pull toward the HGDP Pathan/Kalash rather than the HGDP Baloch/Brahui.

Sindhis seem like a Indo-Aryanised Baloch tribe - leaving them resembling Pathans

Kulin
02-04-2018, 01:17 AM
Are almost all Sindhi Muslims mixed with Baloch? If not, then how much would you speculate? Half?

I suspect Sindhi Muslims to be closer to Baloches than to Gujaratis whereas the opposite would be true for Sindhi Hindus. Are my assumptions correct?

Depends on tribe, some Sindhi tribes are of Baloch origin like the Zardaris or the Talpurs, but aside from that, Memons/Lohanas/Rajputs/Arains/SC etc aren't related. I'm not sure about the 'Jats of Sindh', because the British listed them as a Baloch tribe.

Mingle
02-04-2018, 04:02 AM
Depends on tribe, some Sindhi tribes are of Baloch origin like the Zardaris or the Talpurs, but aside from that, Memons/Lohanas/Rajputs/Arains/SC etc aren't related. I'm not sure about the 'Jats of Sindh', because the British listed them as a Baloch tribe.

That's true, but couldn't Lohanas and co. have mixed with the Baloch?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-04-2018, 04:45 AM
That's true, but couldn't Lohanas and co. have mixed with the Baloch?

Probably before arrival of islam. After arrival of islam the religion restricted it.

Mingle
02-04-2018, 05:11 AM
Probably before arrival of islam. After arrival of islam the religion restricted it.

You're probably right. I was referring to only Sindhi Muslims in that post though, my bad if I didn't make that clear.

Kulin
02-04-2018, 05:16 AM
That's true, but couldn't Lohanas and co. have mixed with the Baloch?

I think most of these tribes until recently were really endogamous, on top of that, groups like Memons/Lohanas are also Ismailis, with a urban/merchant lifestyle in contrast to the village based lifestyle of the Baloch.

Edit: Khwajas are Lohana converts that are Ismaili, while Memons are also Lohanas but Sunni.

Sapporo
02-04-2018, 09:23 AM
I think most of these tribes until recently were really endogamous, on top of that, groups like Memons/Lohanas are also Ismailis, with a urban/merchant lifestyle in contrast to the village based lifestyle of the Baloch.

Edit: Khwajas are Lohana converts that are Ismaili, while Memons are also Lohanas but Sunni.

I've always assumed Khoja Shiekh are Lohanas or related too? Can you provide some insight on that?

Kulin
02-04-2018, 04:23 PM
Yeah they are Lohanas.

heksindhi
02-05-2018, 03:40 PM
Yeah they are Lohanas.

The khojas of Sindh/Kutch are not monolithic. While majority are of Lohana origin, there is also an Iranian element among them. For example, the khojas from Lasbela are of Iranian origin:


The Iranian Ismailis in Lasbela however maintained their own Iranian cultural traditions and customs. With the passage of time, they absorbed the local traditions, which richly sounded in their names, such as Nim, Foto, Laung, Aachar, Jaffer, Karami, Ibn, Ibu, Hashu, Shalu, etc. When the Ismaili merchants of Kutchh came into their contact in Lasbela, they however retained their own cultural tendency, which sounded in their names, such as Angaro, Sumar, Araba, Jumo, Khamiso, Chhanchhar, etc. The most prominent family among them was Aloo or Alwani family. Later on, the original Iranian Ismailis in Lasbela immersed in Indian culture through the learning of the religious education from the Ismailis of Kutchh.

The Ismailis, who later on migrated to Karachi and flourished the Lassi jamat, mastered the study of the ginans. How did they know the ginans when they were originally Iranians and had nothing to do with the tradition of ginans? In fact, they learnt the ginans from the Ismailis of Kutchh. The Ismailis in Lasbela thus emerged as a new generation of the mixed blood of Iran and India, who began to assume the names henceforward as Bhalu (Baledina), Jafu (Jaffer), Gulu (Ghulam Hussain), Mamu (Muhammad), etc.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/20705

Chiraag
02-27-2018, 07:55 AM
Hindu Sindhi (Lohana) reporting in. Here are my Harappa results:

1. Baloch 39.41
2. S-Indian 27.17
3. Caucasian 15.43
4. NE-Euro 10.4
5. SW-Asian 3.65
6. American 1.76
7. Siberian 1.28
8. Papuan 0.58
9. Beringian 0.24
10. Mediterranean 0.06
11. NE-Asian 0.04

Sapporo
02-27-2018, 11:54 AM
@Chiraag

Do you mind posting your results for the following calculators?

Eurogenes ANE K7
Eurogenes K36
MDLP K23b
MDLP World 22
Eurasia K9 ASI (under Gedrosia project)

I'm adding pantheratigris' results (Hindu Sindhi) to the thread since he is no longer active.

My HarappaWorld Results

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.99
2 S-Indian 30.30
3 Caucasian 14.75
4 NE-Euro 10.50
5 Siberian 2.66
6 SE-Asian 1.22
7 SW-Asian 1.20


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 punjabi-khatri @ 3.792929
2 kashmiri-pandit @ 4.409097
3 pushtikar-brahmin @ 4.675718
4 kashmiri @ 4.690756
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim @ 5.234927
6 sindhi @ 5.471786
7 punjabi @ 5.923509
8 punjabi-jatt-sikh @ 6.380467
9 punjabi-brahmin @ 6.488206
10 singapore-indian-c @ 7.299213
11 pathan @ 7.951433
12 kashmiri-pahari @ 7.992730
13 gujarati-muslim @ 8.271935
14 rajasthani-brahmin @ 8.383976
15 punjabi-arain @ 8.439070
16 punjabi-ramgarhia @ 8.527472
17 up-muslim @ 8.990481
18 bhatia @ 9.644446
19 nepali @ 10.314409
20 sindhi @ 10.541694

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% punjabi-khatri +50% pushtikar-brahmin @ 3.181605


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% kashmiri-pandit +25% pathan +25% pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.673719


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 kalash + pathan + pathan + sourastrian @ 2.454459
2 kalash + pathan + pathan + srivastava @ 2.536242
3 bhatia + gujarati-a + kerala-brahmin + urkarah @ 2.549126
4 bihari-muslim + kalash + kalash + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.567888
5 bhatia + gujarati-a + kerala-brahmin + urkarah @ 2.596873
6 bihari-muslim + kalash + pathan + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.600366
7 gujarati-a + punjabi-arain + punjabi-ramgarhia + urkarah @ 2.612786
8 gujarati-a + punjabi-ramgarhia + punjabi-ramgarhia + urkarah @ 2.623632
9 kalash + kashmiri-pandit + pushtikar-brahmin + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.649276
10 bhatia + gujarati-a + meghawal + urkarah @ 2.660105
11 gujarati-a + punjabi-ramgarhia + punjabi-ramgarhia + urkarah @ 2.661638
12 kalash + punjabi-brahmin + pushtikar-brahmin + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.662057
13 kashmiri-pandit + kashmiri-pandit + pathan + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.673719
14 kalash + kalash + pathan + sourastrian @ 2.676890
15 bhatia + gujarati-a + meghawal + urkarah @ 2.689809
16 bhatia + gujarati-patel + kerala-brahmin + urkarah @ 2.691285
17 bhatia + gujarati-a + gujarati-b + urkarah @ 2.693520
18 gujarati-a + punjabi-arain + punjabi-ramgarhia + urkarah @ 2.698428
19 bhatia + gujarati-a + gujarati-b + urkarah @ 2.708445
20 kalash + kalash + karnataka-brahmin + pushtikar-brahmin @ 2.714304

pegasus
02-27-2018, 03:02 PM
I really can't say what percentage of Sindhi Muslims have Baloch admixture. I don't really have any sources to base it upon other than the results of the HGDP Sindhi samples. Some have extremely high Baloch scores near the HGDP Baloch/Brahui/Makrani themselves and others have notable West African admixture implying they are admixed. As for Sindhi Hindus, the only real notable difference between them and the HGDP Sindhis I've seen is they score more of the Caucasus component and slightly more NE Euro or steppe related stuff while scoring lower Baloch and lower SW Asian or occasionally minimal amount of SSA. So, while Hindu Sindhis might have a pull toward "upper caste" Gujaratis such as Gujarati A's or Lohana types (originally from Sindh), they aren't really closer to Gujaratis as a whole. They pull toward the HGDP Pathan/Kalash rather than the HGDP Baloch/Brahui.

Good point here. This basically means these people diffused into Sind from the Northern Indus basin,which makes sense why they cluster with those groups you mentioned. It seems a lot of these upper caste NW South Asians have some common area of origin.

Mingle
02-27-2018, 03:26 PM
Hindu Sindhi (Lohana) reporting in. Here are my Harappa results:

1. Baloch 39.41
2. S-Indian 27.17
3. Caucasian 15.43
4. NE-Euro 10.4
5. SW-Asian 3.65
6. American 1.76
7. Siberian 1.28
8. Papuan 0.58
9. Beringian 0.24
10. Mediterranean 0.06
11. NE-Asian 0.04

Do you mind posting your oracle as well?

Chiraag
02-28-2018, 06:32 AM
deleted

Chiraag
02-28-2018, 06:39 AM
Do you mind posting your oracle as well?

Sure. Harappa oracle:

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 sindhi (harappa) 2.9
2 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.98
3 pathan (hgdp) 4.74
4 kashmiri (harappa) 5.2
5 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.91
6 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.95
7 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 6.61
8 bhatia (harappa) 7.14
9 punjabi (harappa) 7.29
10 kalash (hgdp) 7.74
11 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 8.24
12 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 8.38
13 punjabi-arain (xing) 8.38
14 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 8.78
15 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 9.25
16 sindhi (hgdp) 9.41
17 burusho (hgdp) 9.44
18 haryana-jatt (harappa) 9.82
19 pashtun (harappa) 9.99
20 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 10.06



Do you mind posting your results for the following calculators?

Eurogenes ANE K7
Eurogenes K36
MDLP K23b
MDLP World 22
Eurasia K9 ASI (under Gedrosia project)


Sure.

Eurogenes ANE K7

Population
ANE 28.29
ASE 14.36
WHG-UHG 5.61
East_Eurasian 2.68
West_African -
East_African 3.11
ENF 45.96

Eurogenes K36

Population
Amerindian 0.39
Arabian 2.86
Armenian 2.83
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African 0.16
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 2.25
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 2.78
Fennoscandian 0.41
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian -
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 2.28
North_African -
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 12.95
North_Sea 1.27
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian 25.46
South_Central_Asian 45.16
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.19
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

MDLP K23b

Population
Amerindian 1.70
Ancestral_Altaic 5.67
South_Central_Asian 35.35
Arctic 0.39
South_Indian 28.75
Australoid 0.58
Austronesian -
Caucasian 14.88
Archaic_Human -
East_African 0.23
East_Siberian 0.24
European_Early_Farmers -
Khoisan 0.23
Melano_Polynesian -
Archaic_African -
Near_East 4.72
North_African -
Paleo_Siberian -
African_Pygmy -
South_East_Asian 0.33
Subsaharian 0.30
Tungus-Altaic -
European_Hunters_Gatherers 6.64

MDLP World 22

Population
Pygmy 0.15
West-Asian 37.29
North-European-Mesolithic 4.14
Indo-Tibetan 1.35
Mesoamerican 1.62
Arctic-Amerind 0.09
South-America_Amerind -
Indian 28.63
North-Siberean -
Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 0.82
Samoedic 1.62
Indo-Iranian 7.73
East-Siberean 0.12
North-East-European 9.95
South-African -
North-Amerind 0.96
Sub-Saharian -
East-South-Asian -
Near_East 4.24
Melanesian -
Paleo-Siberian -
Austronesian 1.29

Eurasia K9 ASI

Population
SE_Asian 8.51
Early_Neolithic_Farmers 5.74
SW_Asian 9.16
Ancestral_South_Indian 12.22
Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 8.90
WHG 7.61
Siberian_E_Asian 0.24
Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 46.96
W_African 0.66

EssDee73
03-22-2018, 10:38 AM
Hi all - I'm a Hindu Lohana Gujarati but would like some help in identifying my origins (my surname ends in 'ani' and people have always thought we were Sindhi). If anyone can help I'd be really grateful (e.g. Am I Khatri, Sindhi, Gujarati etc - where does my ancestral DNA come from - Can anyone trace the flow over time?)

MyHeritage:

South Asia
64.9%
West Asia
22.7%
Mizrahi Jewish - Iranian/Iraqi
0%
Central Asia
1.1%
East Asia
0%
Chinese and Vietnamese
0%
Eskimo/Inuit
0%
Filipino, Indonesian, and Malaysian
0%
Japanese
0%
Mongolian
0%
Nepali
0%
Thai and Cambodian
0%
Europe
11.3%
North and West Europe
11.3%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh
11.3%
English
0%


HarappaWorld:


Kit Number: H407615 Elapsed Time: 17.03 seconds

Population
S-Indian 28.95
Baloch 38.04
Caucasian 16.52
NE-Euro 10.11
SE-Asian 0.85
Siberian -
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.96
American 0.77
Beringian 1.25
Mediterranean 0.82
SW-Asian 1.48
San 0.25
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.04
2 S-Indian 28.95
3 Caucasian 16.52
4 NE-Euro 10.11
5 SW-Asian 1.48
6 Beringian 1.25
7 Papuan 0.96
8 SE-Asian 0.85
9 Mediterranean 0.82
10 American 0.77
11 San 0.25
12 Siberian 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.66
2 kashmiri (harappa) 4.09
3 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.03
4 sindhi (harappa) 5.05
5 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 5.58
6 pathan (hgdp) 6.68
7 punjabi (harappa) 6.7
8 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.72
9 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.35
10 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 7.47
11 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 8.25
12 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 8.72
13 kalash (hgdp) 8.82
14 punjabi-arain (xing) 8.9
15 up-muslim (harappa) 8.92
16 bhatia (harappa) 9.22
17 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 9.67
18 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.11
19 sindhi (hgdp) 10.5
20 burusho (hgdp) 10.58

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.6% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 12.4% georgian (harappa) @ 1.72
2 86.5% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 13.5% georgian (harappa) @ 1.74
3 87.5% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 12.5% abhkasian (yunusbayev) @ 1.77
4 88% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 12% georgian (behar) @ 1.85
5 86.1% punjabi (harappa) + 13.9% lezgin (behar) 1.95
6 97.1% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 2.9% georgian (behar) 1.98
7 85.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 14.3% adygei (hgdp) 2
8 97% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 3% abhkasian (yunusbayev) 2.01
9 87.4% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 12.6% armenian (behar) 2.07
10 84.5% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 15.5% kurd (yunusbayev) 2.08
11 88.7% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 11.3% abhkasian (yunusbayev) 2.1
12 96.8% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 3.2% armenian (behar) 2.1
13 85.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 14.3% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) 2.11
14 87.3% punjabi (harappa) + 12.7% chechen (yunusbayev) 2.12
15 85.8% punjabi (harappa) + 14.2% urkarah (xing) 2.14
16 89.2% punjabi-brahmin (harappa) + 10.8% georgian (behar) 2.15
17 97% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 3% azerbaijan-jew (behar) 2.18
18 96.9% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 3.1% adygei (hgdp) 2.18
19 88.5% kashmiri-pandit (reich) + 11.5% lezgin (behar) 2.18
20 97.4% punjabi-khatri (harappa) + 2.6% druze (hgdp) 2.19

Many thanks to anyone who can shed some light on my origins :)

agent_lime
03-22-2018, 11:05 AM
Mostly Khatri with perhaps a little JK mixed in. Surprisingly, my results are similar to Sindhis.

Harrapaworld Results-
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.07
2 S-Indian 28.02
3 Caucasian 16.52
4 NE-Euro 10.84
5 SW-Asian 2.09
6 American 1.43
7 Papuan 1.19
8 Siberian 0.72
9 Beringian 0.61
10 W-African 0.49
11 NE-Asian 0.01

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.62
2 kashmiri (harappa) 4.53
3 sindhi (harappa) 4.55
4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.81
5 pathan (hgdp) 5.87
6 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 6.3
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.59
8 punjabi (harappa) 7.37
9 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 8.14
10 kalash (hgdp) 8.2
11 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 8.23
12 bhatia (harappa) 8.68
13 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 8.94
14 punjabi-arain (xing) 9.38
15 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 9.5

agent_lime
03-22-2018, 12:29 PM
Hi all - I'm a Hindu Lohana Gujarati but would like some help in identifying my origins (my surname ends in 'ani' and people have always thought we were Sindhi). If anyone can help I'd be really grateful (e.g. Am I Khatri, Sindhi, Gujarati etc - where does my ancestral DNA come from - Can anyone trace the flow over time?)



Kit Number: H407615 Elapsed Time: 17.03 seconds

Population
S-Indian 28.95
Baloch 38.04
Caucasian 16.52
NE-Euro 10.11
SE-Asian 0.85
Siberian -
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.96
American 0.77
Beringian 1.25
Mediterranean 0.82
SW-Asian 1.48
San 0.25
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -



I did a match one to one comparison because your and my results are so similar. We aren't related. But your results seem pretty consistent with Sindhi or Punjabi Khatri. Some of yours are very similar to mine. (Baloch, Caucasian, NE Euro, even S-Indian). My grandfather was Arora but all my other grandparents were Khatri (one is possibly Kashmiri because they are from Northern Kashmir but they claim Khatri).

Kit number is - A978158

EssDee73
03-22-2018, 12:35 PM
Thank you. I was looking at yours too and noticed that they were mostly similar. True we're not related but we share a lot of similarities! What an amazing world :)

MonkeyDLuffy
03-22-2018, 02:35 PM
I did a match one to one comparison because your and my results are so similar. We aren't related. But your results seem pretty consistent with Sindhi or Punjabi Khatri. Some of yours are very similar to mine. (Baloch, Caucasian, NE Euro, even S-Indian). My grandfather was Arora but all my other grandparents were Khatri (one is possibly Kashmiri because they are from Northern Kashmir but they claim Khatri).

Kit number is - A978158

Khatris are most likely Sindhi in origin or Sindhis and Khatri are part of same population. Khatris are found all over Sindh as well so It's no surprise they score same.

EssDee73
03-22-2018, 06:05 PM
Khatris are most likely Sindhi in origin or Sindhis and Khatri are part of same population. Khatris are found all over Sindh as well so It's no surprise they score same.

So...can Gujaratis be Sindhi (genetically)? Are some Lohanas actually Khatris?

agent_lime
03-22-2018, 07:48 PM
Khatris are most likely Sindhi in origin or Sindhis and Khatri are part of same population. Khatris are found all over Sindh as well so It's no surprise they score same.

I know marrying into Sindhis is acceptable for a lot of Khatris. Some of my cousins are married into Sindhis without marrying "outside". So it wouldn't surprise me that the two populations are the similar.

Mingle
03-22-2018, 08:01 PM
So...can Gujaratis be Sindhi (genetically)? Are some Lohanas actually Khatris?

I heard that Gujarati Lohanas are of Sindhi origin.

Sapporo
03-22-2018, 08:37 PM
So...can Gujaratis be Sindhi (genetically)? Are some Lohanas actually Khatris?

No, it's just that Hindu Lohanas and their Muslim counterparts (Memon/Khoja) are of Sindhi origin. Hence, why Gujarati Lohana score exactly like Hindu Sindhis and Sindhi Lohana/Memon/Khoja. In other words, Gujarati Lohanas are an assimilated population. You score more like Sindhis than you do to any other Gujarati population.

Sapporo
03-22-2018, 08:46 PM
Mostly Khatri with perhaps a little JK mixed in. Surprisingly, my results are similar to Sindhis.

Harrapaworld Results-
# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.07
2 S-Indian 28.02
3 Caucasian 16.52
4 NE-Euro 10.84
5 SW-Asian 2.09
6 American 1.43
7 Papuan 1.19
8 Siberian 0.72
9 Beringian 0.61
10 W-African 0.49
11 NE-Asian 0.01

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.62
2 kashmiri (harappa) 4.53
3 sindhi (harappa) 4.55
4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.81
5 pathan (hgdp) 5.87
6 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 6.3
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.59
8 punjabi (harappa) 7.37
9 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 8.14
10 kalash (hgdp) 8.2
11 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 8.23
12 bhatia (harappa) 8.68
13 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 8.94
14 punjabi-arain (xing) 9.38
15 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 9.5

What platform did you test on? Just curious. The main difference between Punjabi Khatris and Punjabi Jatt Sikhs seems to be higher Caucasian versus higher NE Euro respectively.

agent_lime
03-22-2018, 08:55 PM
What platform did you test on? Just curious. The main difference between Punjabi Khatris and Punjabi Jatt Sikhs seems to be higher Caucasian versus higher NE Euro respectively.

GEDmatch. Like I said we are Punjabi Khatris (but one side grandparents moved from Multan). Other side was Northern Punjab/ Kashmir, with some relatives in Poonch. So I don't know if my numbers are atypical.

Sapporo
03-22-2018, 09:01 PM
GEDmatch. Like I said we are Punjabi Khatris (but one side grandparents moved from Multan). Other side was Northern Punjab/ Kashmir, with some relatives in Poonch. So I don't know if my numbers are atypical.


Sorry, that's not what I meant. I know you ran your data on GEDmatch but what genome testing service did you use (23andMe V5, FTDNA, Ancestry DNA, MyHeritage, Living DNA, etc.)? Based on your Harappa results, you seem to be pretty typical for a Punjabi Khatri. Your closest single population distance is Punjabi Khatri.

redifflal
03-22-2018, 09:06 PM
I know marrying into Sindhis is acceptable for a lot of Khatris. Some of my cousins are married into Sindhis without marrying "outside". So it wouldn't surprise me that the two populations are the similar.

Do you know which Sindhi caste in particular would Punjabi Khatris inter marry with? Is there such a thing as Sindhi Khatri or is it a different name? My wife's family is Punjabi Khatri and one of her paternal uncles had an arranged marriage with Sindhi. I asked my wife how an arranged marriage could be inter ethnic, but neither she nor her mom know, they just said "hota hai" lol

MonkeyDLuffy
03-22-2018, 09:40 PM
Do you know which Sindhi caste in particular would Punjabi Khatris inter marry with? Is there such a thing as Sindhi Khatri or is it a different name? My wife's family is Punjabi Khatri and one of her paternal uncles had an arranged marriage with Sindhi. I asked my wife how an arranged marriage could be inter ethnic, but neither she nor her mom know, they just said "hota hai" lol

There are Sindhi Khatris, they have surnames like mehta, khatri etc. The comedian Atul khatri is Sindhi while his wife is Punjabi khatri. Punjabi Khatris originally we're found in west and south Punjab, so they're possibly from Sindh or that region.

pegasus
03-23-2018, 02:28 AM
So...can Gujaratis be Sindhi (genetically)? Are some Lohanas actually Khatris?

Lohanas-Khatris-Sindhis look to be very similar contemporary pan Indo Aryan types from Northern Pakistan. I initially thought Sindhis were Pania shifted Baloch but if you look at Khana's results and the fact Lohanas and Khatris hit Kalash and Pathans pretty early on in population distances, the limes of their ethnogenesis seems to be in the North. Most Gujaratis look a lot like South and Central Indians.

bmoney
03-23-2018, 03:10 AM
Lohanas-Khatris-Sindhis look to be very similar contemporary pan Indo Aryan types from Northern Pakistan. I initially thought Sindhis were Pania shifted Baloch but if you look at Khana's results and the fact Lohanas and Khatris hit Kalash and Pathans pretty early on in population distances, the limes of their ethnogenesis seems to be in the North. Most Gujaratis look a lot like South and Central Indians.

Non-Lohana Gujaratis are similar to some southern farmer castes but not all South Indians.

Also Central Indians don't have the Iran_N shift that Gujaratis have and Gujaratis probably don't have the Munda influence Central/East Indians have.

Gujarati A is northern Indo-Aryan

pegasus
03-23-2018, 03:25 AM
Non-Lohana Gujaratis are similar to some southern farmer castes but not all South Indians.

Also Central Indians don't have the Iran_N shift that Gujaratis have and Gujaratis probably don't have the Munda influence Central/East Indians have.

Gujarati A is northern Indo-Aryan

Ok thanks, I have this bad habit of lumping Central, Gujaratis and South Indians together, so urban South Indians are more Iran_N shifted than Central Indians? Interesting.

kush
03-23-2018, 03:30 AM
Lohanas-Khatris-Sindhis look to be very similar contemporary pan Indo Aryan types from Northern Pakistan. I initially thought Sindhis were Pania shifted Baloch but if you look at Khana's results and the fact Lohanas and Khatris hit Kalash and Pathans pretty early on in population distances, the limes of their ethnogenesis seems to be in the North. Most Gujaratis look a lot like South and Central Indians.

Yeah the lohanas/sindhis most likely came from somewhere in the north rather than mix with neighboring balochis or something as you mentioned. The hindu sindhis/lohanas seem to get lower SW asian and Baloch compared to many sindhis from pakistan, which clearly indicates some baloch admixture in the latter group. Its very interesting how southern sindhis are geographically but they score very similar to the northern populations.

Genetically gujaratis do have high south indian but phenotype wise I think they look more similar to northern indians such as rajasthanis, UPites or even to many northwest indians than they do to most south indians. Central indians, who are quite often tribal shifted, are even farther from gujaratis.

bmoney
03-23-2018, 03:36 AM
Ok thanks, I have this bad habit of lumping Central, Gujaratis and South Indians together, so urban South Indians are more Iran_N shifted than Central Indians? Interesting.

Yeah some southern agricultural castes like Reddys etc who numerically are the minority even in urban centres, but were the elites among the Dravidian farmer wave, have an Iran_N tilt. Patels (non-Gujarati A) do resemble these castes and Gujarati is usually top of the list of oracles distances

Central + Orissa Indians are a different profile to anyone else with continuum effects obv - aside from Central Indian Aryan/Scythian castes like MP Rajputs/Brahmins.

Look for caste names like Gupta and other Bania names. Arlus on the forum is an example of a Central Indian

pegasus
03-23-2018, 03:47 AM
Yeah the lohanas/sindhis most likely came from somewhere in the north rather than mix with neighboring balochis or something as you mentioned. The hindu sindhis/lohanas seem to get lower SW asian and Baloch compared to many sindhis from pakistan, which clearly indicates some baloch admixture in the latter group. Its very interesting how southern sindhis are geographically but they score very similar to the northern populations.

Genetically gujaratis do have high south indian but phenotype wise I think they look more similar to northern indians such as rajasthanis, UPites or even to many northwest indians than they do to most south indians. Central indians, who are quite often tribal shifted, are even farther from gujaratis.

I think its these kind of people who spread Indo Aryan cultural tool kit IMO because if you look at the samples today, the Khatri and the Lohana are almost identical to each other and this is separated by caste, language , time and distance. I am also curious to see how Hindus in Balochistan cluster, if Khana could get samples of them it would be great.

bmoney
03-23-2018, 04:22 AM
I think its these kind of people who spread Indo Aryan cultural tool kit IMO because if you look at the samples today, the Khatri and the Lohana are almost identical to each other and this is separated by caste, language , time and distance. I am also curious to see how Hindus in Balochistan cluster, if Khana could get samples of them it would be great.

I think so too - I'd say their entry point into SA is not via Gedrosia but via KPK. These castes probably originated in the North of the Potohar and absorbed 'Baloch' on their interaction with the Gedrosia contact zone.

Where it gets confusing is Gangetic plains R1a though. The gangetic plains, particularly the east, is among the highest in R1a-z93 but low in the 'Caucasian' element that defines these Potwari castes

22269

Also how do you explain Jatt L1a2? they had to have come from a later Central Asian wave as L1a2 is negligible in Eastern Indian castes with high R1a

Arlus
03-23-2018, 04:28 AM
All the native castes and tribes of Chhattisgarh have high incidence of Sickle Cell Anemia, does this suggest recent common ancestry?

bmoney
03-23-2018, 04:41 AM
All the native castes and tribes of Chhattisgarh have high incidence of Sickle Cell Anemia, does this suggest recent common ancestry?

Not sure bro, its an undersampled region - do you have any Chattisgarh gedmatch kits?

agent_lime
03-23-2018, 04:48 AM
Sorry, that's not what I meant. I know you ran your data on GEDmatch but what genome testing service did you use (23andMe V5, FTDNA, Ancestry DNA, MyHeritage, Living DNA, etc.)? Based on your Harappa results, you seem to be pretty typical for a Punjabi Khatri. Your closest single population distance is Punjabi Khatri.

Ancestry DNA.

agent_lime
03-23-2018, 05:14 AM
Do you know which Sindhi caste in particular would Punjabi Khatris inter marry with? Is there such a thing as Sindhi Khatri or is it a different name? My wife's family is Punjabi Khatri and one of her paternal uncles had an arranged marriage with Sindhi. I asked my wife how an arranged marriage could be inter ethnic, but neither she nor her mom know, they just said "hota hai" lol

Just talked to my mom. She said the marriages aren't that common, but they will marry into them reluctantly. Possibly, in older days more acceptable than say marrying a UP Brahmin. Also great, now she thinks I have a Sindhi girlfriend.

bmoney
03-23-2018, 05:32 AM
Just talked to my mom. She said the marriages aren't that common, but they will marry into them reluctantly. Possibly, in older days more acceptable than say marrying a UP Brahmin. Also great, now she thinks I have a Sindhi girlfriend.

LOL so relatable

Sapporo
03-23-2018, 05:51 AM
Lohanas-Khatris-Sindhis look to be very similar contemporary pan Indo Aryan types from Northern Pakistan. I initially thought Sindhis were Pania shifted Baloch but if you look at Khana's results and the fact Lohanas and Khatris hit Kalash and Pathans pretty early on in population distances, the limes of their ethnogenesis seems to be in the North. Most Gujaratis look a lot like South and Central Indians.

I think we need to be specific here. We're only referring to Hindu Sindhis. Muslim Sindhis from Pakistan (see HGDP) and to a lesser extent some Muslim Lohana (like HRP0213 Gujarati Khoja Shiekh) very much look like a Baloch shifted population.

edit: You can ignore this. kush already noted it.

Since we're speaking of the common origins of Hindu Sindhi - Lohana - Khatris, here are the results of a Punjabi Arora courtesy of MonkeyDLuffy. I can't confirm if they are Hindu or Sikh but I believe they should score similar either way.

Arora, #M876604

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 40.16
2 S-Indian 30.03
3 Caucasian 15.08
4 NE-Euro 9.74
5 SW-Asian 1.49
6 Siberian 1.35
7 American 1.18
8 Mediterranean 0.41
9 Beringian 0.37
10 San 0.18
11 SE-Asian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.74
2 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.86
3 sindhi (harappa) 4.12
4 kashmiri (harappa) 4.19
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.81
6 punjabi (harappa) 5.27
7 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.64
8 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.78
9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 6.43
10 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.64
11 pathan (hgdp) 6.66
12 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.75
13 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.33
14 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 7.57
15 bhatia (harappa) 7.68
16 sindhi (hgdp) 8.43
17 up-muslim (harappa) 8.77
18 kalash (hgdp) 8.98
19 burusho (hgdp) 10.12
20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.28

Here is another Hindu Sindhi -

Hiranandani, mtDNA U7 #M792747

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.98
2 S-Indian 28.36
3 Caucasian 16.05
4 NE-Euro 10.99
5 SW-Asian 1.93
6 Siberian 1.2
7 Beringian 0.95
8 SE-Asian 0.6
9 Papuan 0.44
10 American 0.2
11 San 0.19
12 W-African 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.47
2 sindhi (harappa) 3.94
3 kashmiri (harappa) 4.73
4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.46
5 pathan (hgdp) 5.5
6 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 5.7
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.02
8 punjabi (harappa) 6.83
9 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 7.44
10 kalash (hgdp) 8
11 bhatia (harappa) 8.13
12 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 8.19
13 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 8.34
14 punjabi-arain (xing) 8.64
15 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 8.79
16 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 9.55
17 haryana-jatt (harappa) 9.63
18 up-muslim (harappa) 9.68
19 burusho (hgdp) 9.84
20 sindhi (hgdp) 10.01

Another Hindu Sindhi (others were already posted by MDL) who popped up in the Arora's matches:

Ravani, #A827586

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 41.31
2 S-Indian 28.89
3 Caucasian 17.67
4 NE-Euro 6.74
5 SW-Asian 1.84
6 NE-Asian 1.28
7 Papuan 0.81
8 American 0.61
9 Beringian 0.5
10 Siberian 0.23
11 Pygmy 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 sindhi (harappa) 4.94
2 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.7
3 kashmiri (harappa) 5.76
4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 6.73
5 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 6.77
6 pathan (hgdp) 7.17
7 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.69
8 punjabi (harappa) 7.72
9 punjabi-arain (xing) 7.94
10 kalash (hgdp) 8.31
11 bhatia (harappa) 8.54
12 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 8.72
13 sindhi (hgdp) 8.75
14 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 8.84
15 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 9.02
16 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 9.23
17 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 10.16
18 burusho (hgdp) 10.39
19 up-muslim (harappa) 11.05
20 pashtun (harappa) 12.45

Finally, here is a Punjabi Khatri that popped up in the Arora's matches:

Malhotra, mtDNA C4a1/Y-DNA J2b1, #M446754

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.42
2 S-Indian 29.64
3 Caucasian 16.6
4 NE-Euro 10.11
5 SW-Asian 1.38
6 American 0.89
7 Siberian 0.83
8 NE-Asian 0.65
9 Beringian 0.6
10 Mediterranean 0.54
11 Papuan 0.33
12 San 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.72
2 kashmiri (harappa) 3.53
3 sindhi (harappa) 4.86
4 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 4.96
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.34
6 punjabi (harappa) 6.34
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.79
8 pathan (hgdp) 6.8
9 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 6.96
10 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.32
11 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 7.82
12 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 8.17
13 punjabi-arain (xing) 8.59
14 up-muslim (harappa) 8.79
15 kalash (hgdp) 9
16 bhatia (harappa) 9.02
17 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 9.16
18 burusho (hgdp) 10.27
19 sindhi (hgdp) 10.3
20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.36

note: 3-4 Hindu Sindhis or Lohana popped up in this Arora's GEDMatch one to one matches. That pretty much soldifies a common origin.

Arlus
03-23-2018, 06:16 AM
Not sure bro, its an undersampled region - do you have any Chattisgarh gedmatch kits?
Unfortunately no. Wikipedia states that this prevalence is due to genetic linkage with some African population. I have never heard of it though.

pegasus
03-23-2018, 06:20 AM
I think we need to be specific here. We're only referring to Hindu Sindhis. Muslim Sindhis from Pakistan (see HGDP) and to a lesser extent some Muslim Lohana (like HRP0213 Gujarati Khoja Shiekh) very much look like a Baloch shifted population.


edit: You can ignore this. kush already noted it.

I am guessing they absorbed Baloch ancestry but you do find very Iran_N rich groups , like those Kalash scoring the same amounts of that component sans the SW Asian component but that Khoja sample also lacks it.

agent_lime
03-23-2018, 06:32 AM
Since we're speaking of the common origins of Hindu Sindhi - Lohana - Khatris, here are the results of a Punjabi Arora courtesy of MonkeyDLuffy. I can't confirm if they are Hindu or Sikh but I believe they should score similar either way.

Arora, #M876604

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 40.16
2 S-Indian 30.03
3 Caucasian 15.08
4 NE-Euro 9.74
5 SW-Asian 1.49
6 Siberian 1.35
7 American 1.18
8 Mediterranean 0.41
9 Beringian 0.37
10 San 0.18
11 SE-Asian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.74
2 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 3.86
3 sindhi (harappa) 4.12
4 kashmiri (harappa) 4.19
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 4.81
6 punjabi (harappa) 5.27
7 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.64
8 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.78
9 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 6.43
10 punjabi-arain (xing) 6.64
11 pathan (hgdp) 6.66
12 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 6.75
13 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.33
14 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 7.57
15 bhatia (harappa) 7.68
16 sindhi (hgdp) 8.43
17 up-muslim (harappa) 8.77
18 kalash (hgdp) 8.98
19 burusho (hgdp) 10.12
20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.28

Here is another Hindu Sindhi -

Hiranandani, mtDNA U7 #M792747

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.98
2 S-Indian 28.36
3 Caucasian 16.05
4 NE-Euro 10.99
5 SW-Asian 1.93
6 Siberian 1.2
7 Beringian 0.95
8 SE-Asian 0.6
9 Papuan 0.44
10 American 0.2
11 San 0.19
12 W-African 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.47
2 sindhi (harappa) 3.94
3 kashmiri (harappa) 4.73
4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.46
5 pathan (hgdp) 5.5
6 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 5.7
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.02
8 punjabi (harappa) 6.83
9 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 7.44
10 kalash (hgdp) 8
11 bhatia (harappa) 8.13
12 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 8.19
13 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 8.34
14 punjabi-arain (xing) 8.64
15 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 8.79
16 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 9.55
17 haryana-jatt (harappa) 9.63
18 up-muslim (harappa) 9.68
19 burusho (hgdp) 9.84
20 sindhi (hgdp) 10.01

Another Hindu Sindhi (others were already posted by MDL) who popped up in the Arora's matches:

Ravani, #A827586

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 41.31
2 S-Indian 28.89
3 Caucasian 17.67
4 NE-Euro 6.74
5 SW-Asian 1.84
6 NE-Asian 1.28
7 Papuan 0.81
8 American 0.61
9 Beringian 0.5
10 Siberian 0.23
11 Pygmy 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 sindhi (harappa) 4.94
2 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 5.7
3 kashmiri (harappa) 5.76
4 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 6.73
5 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 6.77
6 pathan (hgdp) 7.17
7 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.69
8 punjabi (harappa) 7.72
9 punjabi-arain (xing) 7.94
10 kalash (hgdp) 8.31
11 bhatia (harappa) 8.54
12 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 8.72
13 sindhi (hgdp) 8.75
14 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 8.84
15 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 9.02
16 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 9.23
17 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 10.16
18 burusho (hgdp) 10.39
19 up-muslim (harappa) 11.05
20 pashtun (harappa) 12.45

Finally, here is a Punjabi Khatri that popped up in the Arora's matches:

Malhotra, mtDNA C4a1/Y-DNA J2b1, #M446754

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.42
2 S-Indian 29.64
3 Caucasian 16.6
4 NE-Euro 10.11
5 SW-Asian 1.38
6 American 0.89
7 Siberian 0.83
8 NE-Asian 0.65
9 Beringian 0.6
10 Mediterranean 0.54
11 Papuan 0.33
12 San 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 2.72
2 kashmiri (harappa) 3.53
3 sindhi (harappa) 4.86
4 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 4.96
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 5.34
6 punjabi (harappa) 6.34
7 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 6.79
8 pathan (hgdp) 6.8
9 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 6.96
10 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 7.32
11 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 7.82
12 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 8.17
13 punjabi-arain (xing) 8.59
14 up-muslim (harappa) 8.79
15 kalash (hgdp) 9
16 bhatia (harappa) 9.02
17 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 9.16
18 burusho (hgdp) 10.27
19 sindhi (hgdp) 10.3
20 haryana-jatt (harappa) 10.36

note: 3-4 Hindu Sindhis or Lohana popped up in this Arora's GEDMatch one to one matches. That pretty much soldifies a common origin.

Technically, I am Arora. But my mom is fully Khatri, and my grandmother, dad's mom was Khatri too. They have been intermixing for generations.

Sapporo
03-23-2018, 06:43 AM
Technically, I am Arora. But my mom is fully Khatri, and my grandmother, dad's mom was Khatri too. They have been intermixing for generations.

No, I fully agree. I was just denoting they are Arora since that is the surname they used on GEDmatch I believe. For the rest of us non Khatri/Arora Punjabis, we consider both groups identical and don't really differentiate between the two. At least nobody I know does.

pegasus
03-23-2018, 06:51 AM
I think so too - I'd say their entry point into SA is not via Gedrosia but via KPK. These castes probably originated in the North of the Potohar and absorbed 'Baloch' on their interaction with the Gedrosia contact zone.

Where it gets confusing is Gangetic plains R1a though. The gangetic plains, particularly the east, is among the highest in R1a-z93 but low in the 'Caucasian' element that defines these Potwari castes

22269

Also how do you explain Jatt L1a2? they had to have come from a later Central Asian wave as L1a2 is negligible in Eastern Indian castes with high R1a

Hindu Kush/KPK people are originally high in Iran_N , just look at how high some of Kalash of the HGDP Pashtuns score. I definitely think some clades of L were brought with demic diffusions of people with arrival of Indo Aryans. The region seems to have its own mini version of Corded Ware.

bmoney
03-23-2018, 12:12 PM
Hindu Kush/KPK people are originally high in Iran_N , just look at how high some of Kalash of the HGDP Pashtuns score. I definitely think some clades of L were brought with demic diffusions of people with arrival of Indo Aryans. The region seems to have its own mini version of Corded Ware.

Had to be a later wave tho is my point - R1a is all over SA without accompanying L1a2

bmoney
03-23-2018, 12:16 PM
Unfortunately no. Wikipedia states that this prevalence is due to genetic linkage with some African population. I have never heard of it though.

yes sickle cell anaemia is relatively high in African Americans, not sure how this is relevant to Central Indians though

redifflal
03-23-2018, 12:40 PM
I believe the sickle cell mutation is present throughout tropics due to selection for malaria survival.
This is the map of the gene's spread, note Chattisgarh is indeed a concentration on the map.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle_cell_trait#/media/File%3ASickle_cell_distribution.jpg
I have the trait as well, but not the actual disease because you'd need both parents to have the trait to get it.

Also never got malaria or dengue in my life while people around were dropping like flies lol. Not sure if the trait alone provides immunity though.

khanabadoshi
03-23-2018, 01:17 PM
yes sickle cell anaemia is relatively high in African Americans, not sure how this is relevant to Central Indians though

Two of my 1st cousins have pretty serious Anemias; Sickle-cell and Beta Thalassemia. A few of my Uncles and Aunts are confirmed carriers.
I assume my Father is a carrier (because .Jam - pUncle is), but I haven't testing him, and my mother isn't (because mAunt and Balq aren't carriers; however, .Sadia - mGFsister is a carrier).

I don't have the trait though, and neither do my siblings, but I knew that before I ever tested with 23andme -- I've had Malaria and it was pretty bad.

pegasus
03-23-2018, 11:30 PM
Had to be a later wave tho is my point - R1a is all over SA without accompanying L1a2

Yes , perhaps different tribes, Kambojas diffused in antiquity, I am sure there were others of similar ilk before or in the same time.

Mingle
03-24-2018, 12:57 AM
Technically, I am Arora. But my mom is fully Khatri, and my grandmother, dad's mom was Khatri too. They have been intermixing for generations.

What's the relationship between Khatris and Aroras? From what I understand, they're a closely related population. Were the Aroras originally a Khatri subgroup that later split off or something?

agent_lime
03-24-2018, 01:26 AM
What's the relationship between Khatris and Aroras? From what I understand, they're a closely related population. Were the Aroras originally a Khatri subgroup that later split off or something?

Few theories about that. The 2 that I know of- Aroras decided to be more mercantile(indulge in trade) and lost their position as Khatris(Kshatriya aka Warrior or Ruler caste).
Khatris were getting persecuted; the subgroup that claimed other (aur in Punjabi) got named Aroras (the others), and slightly lost their status.

In both cases Khatris are considered slightly higher on the Punjabi caste food chain. However, Aroras would traditionally not arrange marriages with more traditional mercantile castes.
Traditionally, it is more acceptable for a Khatri male to have an Arora wife then visa versa. In my case my dad and grandfather were both considered Arora and had Khatri wives.

Other interesting things I've heard is that both groups were mostly mercantile anyway because they lost some power with the Mughals. Theories also claim that Khatris lost some of their Kshatriya status by mixing with foreign armies. ( the greeks and the arab armies). Marrying into the Greeks legitimized the Indo Greeks into the Indian fold. There is however, limited proof that this is actually the case. Both side of my family were land owners (feudal like status) before they moved to India with some generational wealth that they lost in moving to India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

redifflal
03-24-2018, 02:01 PM
What's the relationship between Khatris and Aroras? From what I understand, they're a closely related population. Were the Aroras originally a Khatri subgroup that later split off or something?


Few theories about that. The 2 that I know of- Aroras decided to be more mercantile(indulge in trade) and lost their position as Khatris(Kshatriya aka Warrior or Ruler caste).
Khatris were getting persecuted; the subgroup that claimed other (aur in Punjabi) got named Aroras (the others), and slightly lost their status.

In both cases Khatris are considered slightly higher on the Punjabi caste food chain. However, Aroras would traditionally not arrange marriages with more traditional mercantile castes.
Traditionally, it is more acceptable for a Khatri male to have an Arora wife then visa versa. In my case my dad and grandfather were both considered Arora and had Khatri wives.

Other interesting things I've heard is that both groups were mostly mercantile anyway because they lost some power with the Mughals. Theories also claim that Khatris lost some of their Kshatriya status by mixing with foreign armies. ( the greeks and the arab armies). Marrying into the Greeks legitimized the Indo Greeks into the Indian fold. There is however, limited proof that this is actually the case. Both side of my family were land owners (feudal like status) before they moved to India with some generational wealth that they lost in moving to India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

The following link is a decent but lengthy compilation of Arora Khatri origin theories and evolution in the caste ladder through Mughal and British times.
http://rajeshkochhar.com/on-the-origin-of-the-punjabi-khatris/

The author does mention Indo Greek assimilation might be determined by DNA testing but I doubt at this point if we have or will ever have enough resolution to say such a thing definitively about the Khatri caste in specific though.

agent_lime
03-25-2018, 05:07 AM
The following link is a decent but lengthy compilation of Arora Khatri origin theories and evolution in the caste ladder through Mughal and British times.
http://rajeshkochhar.com/on-the-origin-of-the-punjabi-khatris/

The author does mention Indo Greek assimilation might be determined by DNA testing but I doubt at this point if we have or will ever have enough resolution to say such a thing definitively about the Khatri caste in specific though.

That was an interesting read. I do agree that is too late to get any meaningful resolution if Khatris are a hybrid of Indian Kshatriya castes and Indo Greeks. Some of us don't look as typical Indian mainland Indians. But that could easily be because Khatris are West Asian(Baloch) shifted Indus Valley inhabitants.

Mingle
03-25-2018, 05:45 AM
Its interesting how the name 'Khatri' is said to be a variation of Kshatriya, but the Khatris seem to be mainly merchants which is associated with Vaishyas rather than with Kshatriyas. I don't know much about Indian castes, but any idea how that came to be?

Also, the Rajputs are said to be both Rajputs and Kshatriyas. What about the Khatris? Would Khatris be something else in addition to being Kshatriyas (similar to how Rajputs are Rajputs in addition to being Kshatriyas)?

Kulin
03-25-2018, 04:30 PM
That was an interesting read. I do agree that is too late to get any meaningful resolution if Khatris are a hybrid of Indian Kshatriya castes and Indo Greeks. Some of us don't look as typical Indian mainland Indians. But that could easily be because Khatris are West Asian(Baloch) shifted Indus Valley inhabitants.

Khatris are very Caucasian shifted, but also have relatively high steppe ancestry, so they are not really pure pre-IA Indus valley inhabitants in the slightest.

Kulin
03-25-2018, 04:44 PM
Its interesting how the name 'Khatri' is said to be a variation of Kshatriya, but the Khatris seem to be mainly merchants which is associated with Vaishyas rather than with Kshatriyas. I don't know much about Indian castes, but any idea how that came to be?

Also, the Rajputs are said to be both Rajputs and Kshatriyas. What about the Khatris? Would Khatris be something else in addition to being Kshatriyas (similar to how Rajputs are Rajputs in addition to being Kshatriyas)?


'Kshatriya' is a large cluster of grouping in the Indian varna system, and not like a single group, like it may have been in Vedic times.

Rajputs are thus one group of people who claim to be Kshatriya, but the term Rajput only appears around the 7th century or so on. So, its likely that Rajputs are probably descendants of Hunas, mixed with indigineous populations that claim to be kshatriya now. I think, I read somewhere that Kshatriyas were eliminated in ancient times, due to be being oppressors with the remaining population going into mercantile trades (like Khatris). But, mainly war/warlike characteristics are synonymous with Rajputs since they have been mentioned in history, as they were always the largest and most powerful feudal caste in Northern parts of India. Although, there were many prominent Khatris who were generals and such, (e.g. Hari Singh Nalwa, Gulab Singh Dallewalia, or a modern example like Jagjit Singh Arora).

The term Khatri is actually the Punjabi/North Indian 'Prakrit' form of Kshatriya which is a Sanskrit word. It's similar to the word, 'Chhetri' used in Nepal which is also a local variant of Kshatriya. In general, there are many diverse groups that are considered Kshatriya throughout the subcontinent.

redifflal
03-25-2018, 06:06 PM
'Kshatriya' is a large cluster of grouping in the Indian varna system, and not like a single group, like it may have been in Vedic times.

Rajputs are thus one group of people who claim to be Kshatriya, but the term Rajput only appears around the 7th century or so on. So, its likely that Rajputs are probably descendants of Hunas, mixed with indigineous populations that claim to be kshatriya now. I think, I read somewhere that Kshatriyas were eliminated in ancient times, due to be being oppressors with the remaining population going into mercantile trades (like Khatris). But, mainly war/warlike characteristics are synonymous with Rajputs since they have been mentioned in history, as they were always the largest and most powerful feudal caste in Northern parts of India. Although, there were many prominent Khatris who were generals and such, (e.g. Hari Singh Nalwa, Gulab Singh Dallewalia, or a modern example like Jagjit Singh Arora).

The term Khatri is actually the Punjabi/North Indian 'Prakrit' form of Kshatriya which is a Sanskrit word. It's similar to the word, 'Chhetri' used in Nepal which is also a local variant of Kshatriya. In general, there are many diverse groups that are considered Kshatriya throughout the subcontinent.

Yep, Kshatriya as a whole are probably the most mixed up subcontinental Hindu mega group in any region of the land, and that simply is due to nature of the job. In a time of war if a certain clan gave service, they could ascend their position and become accepted as kshatriya as a result. This way many groups from Adivasis like Bhils and Gonds to pre Islamic Central Asians like Huna/Saka/Kamboj/Yavan/Kushan went into ethnogenesis of kshatriya groups. Maybe most recent example of this is Marathas but as anything with modern relevance, it is a controversial topic to broach if one is investigating what was the position of x caste prior to becoming x caste. You will find origin theories of Marathas as they were always kshatriya of some type, while other dismissive ones will say they arose from adivasi origins. Same for Rajputs.

A different factor to consider is also British colonization and how that has somewhat upended the caste hierarchy. Note the 19th century commentary from the Khatri is all about claiming indigeneity and denying any kind of Greek connections. But today's subcontinent society has gradually become one where exoticness of what was once mleccha has now become fashionable. So now the same groups who for centuries denied any Central Asian origins may be found claiming the same. Of course, nobody is still going to claim lower caste Hindu origins or adivasi origins since they are considered low both in global/Western hierarchy as well as in Hindu.

Mingle
03-25-2018, 08:40 PM
'Kshatriya' is a large cluster of grouping in the Indian varna system, and not like a single group, like it may have been in Vedic times.

Rajputs are thus one group of people who claim to be Kshatriya, but the term Rajput only appears around the 7th century or so on. So, its likely that Rajputs are probably descendants of Hunas, mixed with indigineous populations that claim to be kshatriya now. I think, I read somewhere that Kshatriyas were eliminated in ancient times, due to be being oppressors with the remaining population going into mercantile trades (like Khatris). But, mainly war/warlike characteristics are synonymous with Rajputs since they have been mentioned in history, as they were always the largest and most powerful feudal caste in Northern parts of India. Although, there were many prominent Khatris who were generals and such, (e.g. Hari Singh Nalwa, Gulab Singh Dallewalia, or a modern example like Jagjit Singh Arora).

The term Khatri is actually the Punjabi/North Indian 'Prakrit' form of Kshatriya which is a Sanskrit word. It's similar to the word, 'Chhetri' used in Nepal which is also a local variant of Kshatriya. In general, there are many diverse groups that are considered Kshatriya throughout the subcontinent.

Do you know the tribal origins of Khatris? Like Rajputs belong to the Rajput tribe but call themselves Kshatriya. Similarly, the Khatris also call themselves Kshatriya/Khatri but what tribe do they descend from? Abhiras?

I'm assuming that the Chhetris (Kshatriyas) and Bahuns (Brahmins) of Western Nepal belonged to the Khasas tribe mentioned in ancient texts, but adopted Kshatriya and Brahmin identity respectively with the formation of the Indic caste system with Khas later becoming an ethnolinguistic group rather than a tribal identity (similar to Rajput which is still a tribal identity).

Kulin
03-25-2018, 08:51 PM
Do you know the tribal origins of Khatris? Like Rajputs belong to the Rajput tribe but call themselves Kshatriya. Similarly, the Khatris also call themselves Kshatriya/Khatri but what tribe do they descend from? Abhiras?

I'm assuming that the Chhetris (Kshatriyas) and Bahuns (Brahmins) of Western Nepal belonged to the Khasas tribe mentioned in ancient texts, but adopted Kshatriya and Brahmin identity respectively with the formation of the Indic caste system with Khas later becoming an ethnolinguistic group rather than a tribal identity (similar to Rajput which is still a tribal identity).

Khatris claim to be of pure Vedic Kshatriya ancestry (like various Brahmin groups), and don't have a non-Vedic tribal identity per se. They have a large clan/Gotra system though, with some clans being more specific to certain geographic locations (before partition of course). So, my guess would be that their ethnogenesis was mainly formed in the Vedic period, with maybe minor contributions from invading groups.

Yes, most likely that they are descended from Khasas of the Khas kingdom, but a more-western origin could also be possible, as they are very western shifted in genetics for their location. Actually, the 'Chhetri' used to be known as 'Khas Rajput' back in the day, similar to neighbouring Rajput groups known as Garwhal and Kumaon Rajputs. The Bahuns are probably more pure Vedic Brahmin-like group, while the Chhetri could have absorbed more non-IA groups, as they also have higher East Asian for e.g.

bmoney
03-25-2018, 11:32 PM
'Kshatriya' is a large cluster of grouping in the Indian varna system, and not like a single group, like it may have been in Vedic times.

Rajputs are thus one group of people who claim to be Kshatriya, but the term Rajput only appears around the 7th century or so on. So, its likely that Rajputs are probably descendants of Hunas, mixed with indigineous populations that claim to be kshatriya now. I think, I read somewhere that Kshatriyas were eliminated in ancient times, due to be being oppressors with the remaining population going into mercantile trades (like Khatris). But, mainly war/warlike characteristics are synonymous with Rajputs since they have been mentioned in history, as they were always the largest and most powerful feudal caste in Northern parts of India. Although, there were many prominent Khatris who were generals and such, (e.g. Hari Singh Nalwa, Gulab Singh Dallewalia, or a modern example like Jagjit Singh Arora).

The term Khatri is actually the Punjabi/North Indian 'Prakrit' form of Kshatriya which is a Sanskrit word. It's similar to the word, 'Chhetri' used in Nepal which is also a local variant of Kshatriya. In general, there are many diverse groups that are considered Kshatriya throughout the subcontinent.

While i 100% agree with this post - who are the Kshatriyas if not for the Rajputs, there is no sample to compare to so to speak.

Did Parshuram kill all of them?

Some people online claiming Rajputs are Shudras due to a technicality, then who are the real Kshatriyas or their descendants?

Even Jats formed royal lineages like Bharatpur

bmoney
03-25-2018, 11:37 PM
Yep, Kshatriya as a whole are probably the most mixed up subcontinental Hindu mega group in any region of the land, and that simply is due to nature of the job. In a time of war if a certain clan gave service, they could ascend their position and become accepted as kshatriya as a result. This way many groups from Adivasis like Bhils and Gonds to pre Islamic Central Asians like Huna/Saka/Kamboj/Yavan/Kushan went into ethnogenesis of kshatriya groups. Maybe most recent example of this is Marathas but as anything with modern relevance, it is a controversial topic to broach if one is investigating what was the position of x caste prior to becoming x caste. You will find origin theories of Marathas as they were always kshatriya of some type, while other dismissive ones will say they arose from adivasi origins. Same for Rajputs.

A different factor to consider is also British colonization and how that has somewhat upended the caste hierarchy. Note the 19th century commentary from the Khatri is all about claiming indigeneity and denying any kind of Greek connections. But today's subcontinent society has gradually become one where exoticness of what was once mleccha has now become fashionable. So now the same groups who for centuries denied any Central Asian origins may be found claiming the same. Of course, nobody is still going to claim lower caste Hindu origins or adivasi origins since they are considered low both in global/Western hierarchy as well as in Hindu.

+1. Indic Marathas are Kshatriyas in my book though the title is strictly Vedic and should be determined by the Brahmans

Also the opposite scenario, can adivasi tribes like the Bhils now claim Central Asian origin due to being largely R1a1a

agent_lime
03-26-2018, 05:07 AM
While i 100% agree with this post - who are the Kshatriyas if not for the Rajputs, there is no sample to compare to so to speak.

Did Parshuram kill all of them?

Some people online claiming Rajputs are Shudras due to a technicality, then who are the real Kshatriyas or their descendants?

Even Jats formed royal lineages like Bharatpur

I think the Parshuram killing all of them is an over estimate. He targeted them, and most probably did get rid of a few armies and more prominent ones from that time. Otherwise who are the people that claims Khatris now? But a lot of the struggle was over which varna had the power. The Brahmins or the Kshatriyas. And this has always been a point of contention in the Indian Subcontinent. Since who is called Kshatriya has changed more(different groups like Marathas, Rajputs etc), I think the Brahmins have had more power as mostly the same group. I've met South Indian Brahmins that look more western looking than most people from UP and Bihar. So like the Khatris, the Brahmins too haven't always been the locals everywhere(I know both groups are mixed into where they live).

redifflal
03-26-2018, 12:44 PM
I think the Parshuram killing all of them is an over estimate. He targeted them, and most probably did get rid of a few armies and more prominent ones from that time. Otherwise who are the people that claims Khatris now? But a lot of the struggle was over which varna had the power. The Brahmins or the Kshatriyas. And this has always been a point of contention in the Indian Subcontinent. Since who is called Kshatriya has changed more(different groups like Marathas, Rajputs etc), I think the Brahmins have had more power as mostly the same group. I've met South Indian Brahmins that look more western looking than most people from UP and Bihar. So like the Khatris, the Brahmins too haven't always been the locals everywhere(I know both groups are mixed into where they live).

I'd reckon becoming Brahmin would be near impossible in pre modern times, once again due to nature of job. This is one job you can't bluff your way into by moving to a different region for example, because one would need to know Sanskrit and Vedas etc and these things weren't stuff you could learn in schools. Villages had gurukuls but these were also admission for Brahmin kids only. So if Brahmins and Vedas ultimately have a Punjab region origin, then Brahmins from Tripura to Kerala will tend to look phenotypically as a whole more northwest shifted than those around them (with exceptions of those with historical era admixture sources from outside the subcontinent like kshatriya groups or groups that claim to have once been kshatriyas or Muslim groups or Christian groups etc).

In our case of Bengali Brahmins, it is a historically recorded migration from Kannauj in Uttar Pradesh of 5 Brahmin clans in the 1200s when the Sen dynasty wrested power from the Buddhist Pal dynasty and invited Brahmins to settle. Not that Bengal didn't already have Brahmins. But the new wave (kulin) would eventually and periodically take wives from the older and considered lower/degraded but still Brahmin groups. So this how localization with distinction would happen but the bloodline for Brahmins should be more or less very consistent. When people talk of dynamism or flexible of caste system, they generally are talking of everything Brahmin-down. So today's Thakurs might have been yesterday's Shudra and vice versa but being flexible doesn't mean it was a free for all. One end of the totem pole was very much fixed.

Mingle
03-26-2018, 04:10 PM
I'd reckon becoming Brahmin would be near impossible in pre modern times, once again due to nature of job. This is one job you can't bluff your way into by moving to a different region for example, because one would need to know Sanskrit and Vedas etc and these things weren't stuff you could learn in schools. Villages had gurukuls but these were also admission for Brahmin kids only. So if Brahmins and Vedas ultimately have a Punjab region origin, then Brahmins from Tripura to Kerala will tend to look phenotypically as a whole more northwest shifted than those around them (with exceptions of those with historical era admixture sources from outside the subcontinent like kshatriya groups or groups that claim to have once been kshatriyas or Muslim groups or Christian groups etc).

So does that mean that Nepali Brahmins (Bahuns) are descended from the original Brahmin tribe rather than from the Khasa tribe? Or are they of Khasa origin but took on Brahmin identity when the Vedic caste system spread throughout India? I think its more likely they're descended from the original Brahmins of Punjab cause of their genetics, but they self-identify as 'Khas' too.

Do you know what happened to the original Vaishya tribe? Which modern day Indic tribes identify as Vaishya? Would Ahirs and Banias be considered Vaishyas?

What happened to the Brahmins that converted to Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, and/or Jainism? Regarding the ones that converted to Islam, I've heard that they mostly started to identify as Ashraf (Pathan, Syed, Sheikh, Mughal, etc). But what about the ones that converted to other Dharmic religions?

Did marriages between Brahmins and non-Brahmins occur?

Mingle
03-26-2018, 04:13 PM
I think the Parshuram killing all of them is an over estimate. He targeted them, and most probably did get rid of a few armies and more prominent ones from that time. Otherwise who are the people that claims Khatris now? But a lot of the struggle was over which varna had the power. The Brahmins or the Kshatriyas. And this has always been a point of contention in the Indian Subcontinent. Since who is called Kshatriya has changed more(different groups like Marathas, Rajputs etc), I think the Brahmins have had more power as mostly the same group. I've met South Indian Brahmins that look more western looking than most people from UP and Bihar. So like the Khatris, the Brahmins too haven't always been the locals everywhere(I know both groups are mixed into where they live).

I think its likely that the Khatris are the original Kshatriyas considering that they are genetically the northernmost Indic group and they don't seem to have any other tribal name that they call themselves (in contrast to Rajputs who identify as both Kshatriya and Rajput). Khatris also live in the northwestern part of India and that's the region where their ethnogenesis happened if I'm not mistaken.

Mingle
03-26-2018, 04:14 PM
+1. Indic Marathas are Kshatriyas in my book though the title is strictly Vedic and should be determined by the Brahmans

Is there a difference between 'Brahmin' and 'Brahman' other than the spelling/pronunciation?

parasar
03-26-2018, 04:42 PM
Is there a difference between 'Brahmin' and 'Brahman' other than the spelling/pronunciation?

I'm not sure how "an" became "in" but the former is the correct form. It is first historically attested in the form Babhan and then Bahman. We use the Babhan form.
The r comes into use in the west - see for example Pali piyadasi laja vs Aramaic prydrsh mlk which is more in line with Sanskrit Priyadarshi Rajan.

Kulin
03-26-2018, 04:51 PM
My maternal family are mostly of Kulin Brahmin origin, and we were Zamindars. My Great Grandfather, and Great Great Grandfather belonged to two distinct Zamindari families, and are well known throughout my area. Basically, fourth/fifth generation (not sure) or so Muslim from maternal side of the family.

bmoney
03-26-2018, 11:16 PM
My maternal family are mostly of Kulin Brahmin origin, and we were Zamindars. My Great Grandfather, and Great Great Grandfather belonged to two distinct Zamindari families, and are well known throughout my area. Basically, fourth/fifth generation (not sure) or so Muslim from maternal side of the family.

Did your family keep any Brahmin identification after conversion, for example the Khatris who are known as Sheikhs in Islam?

Reza
03-26-2018, 11:30 PM
I
In our case of Bengali Brahmins, it is a historically recorded migration from Kannauj in Uttar Pradesh of 5 Brahmin clans in the 1200s when the Sen dynasty wrested power from the Buddhist Pal dynasty and invited Brahmins to settle. Not that Bengal didn't already have Brahmins. But the new wave (kulin) would eventually and periodically take wives from the older and considered lower/degraded but still Brahmin groups. So this how localization with distinction would happen but the bloodline for Brahmins should be more or less very consistent. When people talk of dynamism or flexible of caste system, they generally are talking of everything Brahmin-down. So today's Thakurs might have been yesterday's Shudra and vice versa but being flexible doesn't mean it was a free for all. One end of the totem pole was very much fixed.

Really interesting point about different waves of Brahmins in Bengal, and the Kulin Brahmins marrying wives from the more local / older wave of Bengali Brahmins. Would explain to some degree how Bengali Brahmins to this day have a significant amount of E/SE Asian, albeit it a lesser proportion than other Bengalis.

I've missed much of the conversation in the thread, but how strict might the rules have been for Brahmin men marrying non Brahmin women throughout history and the even more distant past? Alot of the mtdna haplogroups are very indigenous to the area.

Any records of Brahmins converting to Buddhism in Bengal prior to the Sen dynasty re-establishing power?

Kulin
03-27-2018, 12:32 AM
Did your family keep any Brahmin identification after conversion, for example the Khatris who are known as Sheikhs in Islam?

No, not really a Brahmin identity per se, but take pride in that part of the ancestry. My family was endogamous up till my generation. Before, it was only acceptable to marry within 'Khandani' families of the Chittagong region, but my dad included for e.g. are not from that region, nor are from large landed aristocracy unlike my maternal family. One of my Great Grandfathers is an original inhabitant of the Chittagong city, which is pretty rare among general Bengali people, since most people generally come from villages.

pnb123
03-27-2018, 03:47 AM
Do you know the tribal origins of Khatris? Like Rajputs belong to the Rajput tribe but call themselves Kshatriya. Similarly, the Khatris also call themselves Kshatriya/Khatri but what tribe do they descend from? Abhiras?

I'm assuming that the Chhetris (Kshatriyas) and Bahuns (Brahmins) of Western Nepal belonged to the Khasas tribe mentioned in ancient texts, but adopted Kshatriya and Brahmin identity respectively with the formation of the Indic caste system with Khas later becoming an ethnolinguistic group rather than a tribal identity (similar to Rajput which is still a tribal identity).

I think all Nepali Pahari brahmins are culturally 'Khas'. Genetic evidences shows that there's no difference in admixture between Eastern and Western Khas brahmins. And it makes sense because Khas only entered Eastern Hills, until few hundred years ago.

Mingle
03-27-2018, 05:25 AM
I think all Nepali Pahari brahmins are culturally 'Khas'. Genetic evidences shows that there's no difference in admixture between Eastern and Western Khas brahmins. And it makes sense because Khas only entered Eastern Hills, until few hundred years ago.

Among the people that identify as Khas nowadays include the Brahmin (Bahun) and Kshatriya (Chhetri) Nepalis. Are there any other groups in Nepal besides these two that identify as 'Khas'?

When you say eastern and western Khas Brahmins, are you referring to Uttarakhandi Brahmins as 'western Khas Brahmins'?

pnb123
03-27-2018, 05:36 AM
Among the people that identify as Khas nowadays include the Brahmin (Bahun) and Kshatriya (Chhetri) Nepalis. Are there any other groups in Nepal besides these two that identify as 'Khas'?

When you say eastern and western Khas Brahmins, are you referring to Uttarakhandi Brahmins as 'western Khas Brahmins'?

No, Uttarakhandi brahmins are different group from us. I'm only talking about Western Nepali Bahuns (Kumais) & Eastern Nepali Bahuns (Purviyas). But we don't traditionally intermarry with each other. However it looks like we separated from same group (evident from the fact that Poi and I are showing up as relatives in Gedmatch) and also from the fact that Eastern Brahmins and Western Nepali Brahmins are scoring similarly.

Mingle
03-27-2018, 03:41 PM
No, Uttarakhandi brahmins are different group from us. I'm only talking about Western Nepali Bahuns (Kumais) & Eastern Nepali Bahuns (Purviyas). But we don't traditionally intermarry with each other. However it looks like we separated from same group (evident from the fact that Poi and I are showing up as relatives in Gedmatch) and also from the fact that Eastern Brahmins and Western Nepali Brahmins are scoring similarly.

Do non-Kshatriya Khas people or non-Brahmin Khas people exist in Nepal?

Kulin
03-27-2018, 05:09 PM
Do non-Kshatriya Khas people or non-Brahmin Khas people exist in Nepal?

They do. There are Kami (iron workers), damai (tailors), Sarki (cobblers), Badi (drum makers) which are historically considered Dalit/untouchable. Also, there are Yogi (monastic sages) and also Thakuris (who are also another Khas group with Kshatriya identity). Bahuns and Chhetris are the overwhelming majority of the Khas population however.

redifflal
03-27-2018, 07:04 PM
Mingle and Reza sorry I haven't had a chance to respond. I will when I have time to get on a computer.


My maternal family are mostly of Kulin Brahmin origin, and we were Zamindars. My Great Grandfather, and Great Great Grandfather belonged to two distinct Zamindari families, and are well known throughout my area. Basically, fourth/fifth generation (not sure) or so Muslim from maternal side of the family.

Kulin, would you be able to trace down how the Brahmin side of your family became zamindars? Is the Islamic conversion earlier or later or perhaps directly correlated to taking up zamindari?

Kulin
03-27-2018, 07:22 PM
Mingle and Reza sorry I haven't had a chance to respond. I will when I have time to get on a computer.



Kulin, would you be able to trace down how the Brahmin side of your family became zamindars? Is the Islamic conversion earlier or later or perhaps directly correlated to taking up zamindari?

Zamindaris in the region were established mainly between the late 16th-early 17th centuries, culminating with the Mughal conquest of Chittagong from the Arakanese. The Mughals had granted tracts of land called "sanads" for soldiers involved to settle, as well as religious leaders and clerks brought with them (both Hindu/Muslim and Bengali/non-Bengali). My Great Grandmother's family were probably converted earlier during this time, and granted titles of "Khan" and a village in the outskirts of the main town, while my Great Grandfather's family were Hindu Zamindars with the title "Roy Chowdhury", and after conversion during the British period only kept "Chowdhury" and owned properties in areas that became the main town.

There were three discernible means by which the religious gentry acquired their land rights: donation, purchase, and pioneering. The first method corresponds to what Buchanan found at the end of the eighteenth century, when men produced documents showing that some legitimate local authority had donated land to them. Described in Mughal documents as sardār (chieftain), chaudhurī (headman), or most frequently zamīndār (landholder), the Muslims among these authorities were most likely descendants of the Mughal troopers who had accompanied Buzurg Umid Khan’s expedition to Chittagong in 1666. The Hindus among them were probably descendants of the clerks or revenue agents who had also accompanied that expedition and, in a manner described by Buchanan for the late eighteenth century, used their proximity to the governing authorities to get new lands made over to them in their own names. By authorizing a petitioner to clear the jungle and build a mosque or shrine, these local authorities became patrons of the petitioners named in the sanads. It is also evident that by the mid eighteenth century the patronage system had not hardened along communal lines: some Hindu chaudhurīs patronized mosques and some Muslim chaudhurīs patronized temples. ~ "The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760".

There are actually a wide array of Zamindaris, ranging from native Bengalis to foreigners. South of the outskirts of the cities, there are even Rajput settlements. The Hazari family (https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Hazari_Estate.html) who are still Hindu, and are historically Rajputs from Rajputana are the most famous among them in the area.

pnb123
03-28-2018, 01:37 AM
Do non-Kshatriya Khas people or non-Brahmin Khas people exist in Nepal?

Adding to what Kulin said. There are Sanyasis as well. They usually go by one of these surnames: Giri, Puri, Bharati, Sanyasi, etc. They too fall under Bahun umbrella, but are considered a bit lower on the hierarchy. Not too familiar with Thakuris, but I've had lots of Chhetri friends before.

heksindhi
03-28-2018, 08:58 PM
I am also curious to see how Hindus in Balochistan cluster, if Khana could get samples of them it would be great.

Hindus in Balochistan are ethnic Sindhis, so I would expect them to cluster with other Sindhi Hindus. The last census in Balochistan that was granular enough to record tribe/caste was in 1931 and virtually all Hindus in Balochistan were Aroras. I do know that all the Hindus in Lasbela are Aroras.

22372

Aroras represented 16,359 out of a total of 16,905 Hindus in Balochistan circa 1931. The 1998 census recorded approximately 40,000 Hindus and I expect the proportions to be the same.

pegasus
03-31-2018, 03:51 PM
Hindus in Balochistan are ethnic Sindhis, so I would expect them to cluster with other Sindhi Hindus. The last census in Balochistan that was granular enough to record tribe/caste was in 1931 and virtually all Hindus in Balochistan were Aroras. I do know that all the Hindus in Lasbela are Aroras.

22372

Aroras represented 16,359 out of a total of 16,905 Hindus in Balochistan circa 1931. The 1998 census recorded approximately 40,000 Hindus and I expect the proportions to be the same.

Thats very interesting Aroras and Brahmins in Balochistan?? I would never think such groups live there. Thanks a lot for that that document link. Though I noticed that the some Baloch Hindu who have Bugti as a surname, thats a very Baloch surname and different from the "kumar " most of them use. I think NE areas of Balochistan seem to be a transitional region between Sind and perhaps these people have been there for a very long time.

parasar
03-31-2018, 06:09 PM
...
There are actually a wide array of Zamindaris, ranging from native Bengalis to foreigners. South of the outskirts of the cities, there are even Rajput settlements. The Hazari family (https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Hazari_Estate.html) who are still Hindu, and are historically Rajputs from Rajputana are the most famous among them in the area.

Intersestingly it says Gaur Rajputs for the Hazaris. Rajputana is a very late name and we see a Rajput like term in Gaur earlier during the Sen period.
"he was a Gaur Rajput and came from one of the Suryavanshi lineage Rajput ruling family of Rajputana under Mughal territory."
Cf. Rajaputr Samantsen of Gaur.
Our relative Babhan clan of the Bhagocchias, the Bisen Rajputs, the hill Rajputs (Mandi, Suket, etc), and the Bangal Sens all claim ancestry from a Birsen. This Birsen was from a Karnat Bramha-Kshatra family, in some traditions a descendant of Mayur Bhat, a Brahman who took to arms.

khanabadoshi
03-31-2018, 06:15 PM
Intersestingly it says Gaur Rajputs for the Hazaris. Rajputana is a very late name and we see a Rajput like term in Gaur earlier during the Sen period.
"he was a Gaur Rajput and came from one of the Suryavanshi lineage Rajput ruling family of Rajputana under Mughal territory."
Cf. Rajaputr Samantsen of Gaur.
Our relative Babhan clan of the Bhagocchias, the Bisen Rajputs, the hill Rajputs (Mandi, Suket, etc), and the Bangal Sens all claim ancestry from a Birsen. This Birsen was from a Karnat Bramha-Kshatra family, in some traditions a descendant of Mayur Bhat, a Brahman who took to arms.

Parasar! https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13904-Central-and-South-Asian-DNA-Paper

khanabadoshi
03-31-2018, 06:16 PM
Hindus in Balochistan are ethnic Sindhis, so I would expect them to cluster with other Sindhi Hindus. The last census in Balochistan that was granular enough to record tribe/caste was in 1931 and virtually all Hindus in Balochistan were Aroras. I do know that all the Hindus in Lasbela are Aroras.

22372

Aroras represented 16,359 out of a total of 16,905 Hindus in Balochistan circa 1931. The 1998 census recorded approximately 40,000 Hindus and I expect the proportions to be the same.

This is the same in South Punjab, all Hindus are Aroras. I checked the old census as well of my district, same deal. All Aroras.

agent_lime
04-03-2018, 04:08 PM
This is the same in South Punjab, all Hindus are Aroras. I checked the old census as well of my district, same deal. All Aroras.

I would be curious to know if these Aroras are actually related to the Khatris? I never got the feeling that everyone was just an Arora when my grandparents were alive. Aroras are a higher Punjabi caste, and them and Khatris in Indian Punjab aren't certainly everyone.

khanabadoshi
04-04-2018, 01:34 AM
I would be curious to know if these Aroras are actually related to the Khatris? I never got the feeling that everyone was just an Arora when my grandparents were alive. Aroras are a higher Punjabi caste, and them and Khatris in Indian Punjab aren't certainly everyone.

Were your grandparents from Multan? I haven't checked Multan city demographics. I would imagine there would be more groups. However, in the districts to the west of Multan, its seems overwhelmingly Arora in every census. I can tell you they were not many Hindus in the city just west to Multan (~3000 total) and they were wealthy (so I suppose the higher caste thing is true), and they were mostly involved with money lending. All of the large ornate homes were of the Hindus that left. To give an idea of the extent of size, my father's home is the horse stable of Hindu family that left, the mosque next door is actually the that same Hindu family's office /daftar", the family home itself was divided into 6 homes. It seems everyone left with some agreements. Because the entire upper section of the bazaar are all old homes with very cool wooden carving designs in the windows and balconies, but no one lives in them. I talking like 100s of homes, and I've seen no evidence of a single one being occupied. I think families that left made agreements allowing the store shops to be run by some Muslim family and in exchange their stuff was to be stored in their homes on the levels above, and things have just stayed that way. Probably the Hindus of these areas knew the place wasn't going to be in India because the demographics weren't even close. So they planned much ahead and the move was not sudden. There were very few Sikhs in the entire district only 100-300 and all were associated with making rope, remnants of Sikh Misl representatives, and they all must have moved in advanced too. Of course all these properties could be just taken over, as is very typical thing in our region (people qabza other peoples farms or land all the time), however, it's always been a mystery to me how come no one actually lives in the homes. I will have to investigate next time I visit Pakistan. My father and Uncles think that my grandfather just claimed the horse stable and turned it into a domicile, but they aren't sure. However, other elders say there was some mutual exchange, as part of my family had property in Gurdaspur and essentially that Hindu family moved there and head of my family got the home in Muzaffargarh (which he subsequently divided out to many people). However, I think that's just too honorable to be true LMAO.... a qabza is much more likely.

As far as why all these Hindus are probably Auroras: I think it makes sense because these smaller cities were built in the 17-18th century, so the populace are rural people trying to upgrade to an more urban life (the muslim and jatts of the region) + hindus who are servicing the financial needs of this new urban population (the aroras). Now for a very old and established city like Multan, I would imagine the demographics would be more diverse when it comes to Hindus. It is pretty much a presumed given that all the Christians of Multan are Hindu converts during the British era, and they tend to be poorer and have menial jobs (so one might assume low-caste), but I have observed Christians as doctors and lawyers in the city. So probably as the British are taking census, all that is left is the "Kshatriya-level" Hindus as time goes by -- Khatiri/Aurora etc, because the "lower-caste" Hindus probably converted to Christianity in this era.

As far as general interaction with Hindus and if there is some sense of high/low-caste, all I have is anecdotal: There were some Nepali students who shared a meal with some student from Lahore and the Lahori guy threw the plates they ate on away. This became a major point of discussion on campus, because it seems all the people from the northeast Punjab seemed to be in agreement that the plate is "impure" and all the local students from in and around Multan were like "w0t"? I told my Uncle about this story and he laughed and was like why waste a good plate? There was also a young Hindu kid whom I had many interactions with, and everyone shook his hand, said salaam to him, etc. So I infer from this that the concept of impurity/untouchable is not very prevalent; which leads me to assume the Hindus were not practicing very regimental caste designations in the region. If the low-caste is not very defined, then neither is a high-caste -- so everyone is just assumed to be a middle caste. However, in all honestly, I think there was never really such hierarchy and nowadays they are assumed to be a higher-caste because they settled in areas in India where they needed a designation. I don't think one can fit the Hindus along the Indus in Punjab or Sindh or west of it within the caste-dynamics of Northern India. I don't think they were ever a part of it really. Essentially, I think the Hindus of these regions are clans like everyone else around them, and we are now attempting to fit a clan/tribe into a caste-dynamic, and it doesn't work. Fitting a square peg into a round hole.

All that being said, you have insight that most of us don't have. You have family from the region who were Hindus, so your information can help clarify a lot. And next time I visit I can ask around about questions we come up with. What were the other types of Hindus or castes that your grandparents spoke of?

bmoney
04-04-2018, 02:04 AM
Yep, the Gangetic plains caste system ceases to work around the clan/tribe based Indus

Are the Punjabi Brahmins native to the region? They seem to be high in haplogroup J (21.43%) and R2 (25%)

agent_lime
04-04-2018, 05:39 AM
Were your grandparents from Multan? I haven't checked Multan city demographics. I would imagine there would be more groups. However, in the districts to the west of Multan, its seems overwhelmingly Arora in every census. I can tell you they were not many Hindus in the city just west to Multan (~3000 total) and they were wealthy (so I suppose the higher caste thing is true), and they were mostly involved with money lending. All of the large ornate homes were of the Hindus that left. To give an idea of the extent of size, my father's home is the horse stable of Hindu family that left, the mosque next door is actually the that same Hindu family's office /daftar", the family home itself was divided into 6 homes. It seems everyone left with some agreements. Because the entire upper section of the bazaar are all old homes with very cool wooden carving designs in the windows and balconies, but no one lives in them. I talking like 100s of homes, and I've seen no evidence of a single one being occupied. I think families that left made agreements allowing the store shops to be run by some Muslim family and in exchange their stuff was to be stored in their homes on the levels above, and things have just stayed that way. Probably the Hindus of these areas knew the place wasn't going to be in India because the demographics weren't even close. So they planned much ahead and the move was not sudden. There were very few Sikhs in the entire district only 100-300 and all were associated with making rope, remnants of Sikh Misl representatives, and they all must have moved in advanced too. Of course all these properties could be just taken over, as is very typical thing in our region (people qabza other peoples farms or land all the time), however, it's always been a mystery to me how come no one actually lives in the homes. I will have to investigate next time I visit Pakistan. My father and Uncles think that my grandfather just claimed the horse stable and turned it into a domicile, but they aren't sure. However, other elders say there was some mutual exchange, as part of my family had property in Gurdaspur and essentially that Hindu family moved there and head of my family got the home in Muzaffargarh (which he subsequently divided out to many people). However, I think that's just too honorable to be true LMAO.... a qabza is much more likely.

As far as why all these Hindus are probably Auroras: I think it makes sense because these smaller cities were built in the 17-18th century, so the populace are rural people trying to upgrade to an more urban life (the muslim and jatts of the region) + hindus who are servicing the financial needs of this new urban population (the aroras). Now for a very old and established city like Multan, I would imagine the demographics would be more diverse when it comes to Hindus. It is pretty much a presumed given that all the Christians of Multan are Hindu converts during the British era, and they tend to be poorer and have menial jobs (so one might assume low-caste), but I have observed Christians as doctors and lawyers in the city. So probably as the British are taking census, all that is left is the "Kshatriya-level" Hindus as time goes by -- Khatiri/Aurora etc, because the "lower-caste" Hindus probably converted to Christianity in this era.

As far as general interaction with Hindus and if there is some sense of high/low-caste, all I have is anecdotal: There were some Nepali students who shared a meal with some student from Lahore and the Lahori guy threw the plates they ate on away. This became a major point of discussion on campus, because it seems all the people from the northeast Punjab seemed to be in agreement that the plate is "impure" and all the local students from in and around Multan were like "w0t"? I told my Uncle about this story and he laughed and was like why waste a good plate? There was also a young Hindu kid whom I had many interactions with, and everyone shook his hand, said salaam to him, etc. So I infer from this that the concept of impurity/untouchable is not very prevalent; which leads me to assume the Hindus were not practicing very regimental caste designations in the region. If the low-caste is not very defined, then neither is a high-caste -- so everyone is just assumed to be a middle caste. However, in all honestly, I think there was never really such hierarchy and nowadays they are assumed to be a higher-caste because they settled in areas in India where they needed a designation. I don't think one can fit the Hindus along the Indus in Punjab or Sindh or west of it within the caste-dynamics of Northern India. I don't think they were ever a part of it really. Essentially, I think the Hindus of these regions are clans like everyone else around them, and we are now attempting to fit a clan/tribe into a caste-dynamic, and it doesn't work. Fitting a square peg into a round hole.

All that being said, you have insight that most of us don't have. You have family from the region who were Hindus, so your information can help clarify a lot. And next time I visit I can ask around about questions we come up with. What were the other types of Hindus or castes that your grandparents spoke of?

Good post. Thanks for writing this out. One side of grandparents were from Multan (Dera Ghazi Khan). Since my grandparents aren't here anymore, I did have a chat with my father. His understanding was this-

- There were Hindu Brahmins. But they were rare, often they would marry into Brahmins from Gujrat or Rajasthan or Indian Punjab. Usually only 1 family were village. Makes sense that they are now gone.

- Then there was Khatris and Aroras. They largely intermarried. The only distinction I got from talking with him was Khatris would be more in warrior like roles like protecting villages, or joining armies. Other distinction was Khatris would more readily eat meat vs Aroras.

- Then the Bhatias. They were a subcaste. Likely they were the major trader caste.

- Also intermarrying was not frowned upon. Of course, people would prefer more their caste, but for example if a Arora wanted to marry a Bhatia it would be allowed.

- When the Multani hindus got to India, they were even less endogamous. I remember going to a Jampuri Sammelan (gathering of Jampuris) and people would marry each other.

- Also the lower Hindu castes had mostly converted to Muslims at the time of the Mughals. According to my father there wasn't a need for a 4th caste because what the higher caste Hindus would consider low work, Muslims would do. Sorry, I know this sounds harsh.

- Endogamy overall was very limited.

- The part about the huge houses was also true. My grandfather was a headmaster but he was also a rich man. Bags filled with gold were lost when the family moved to India. We were land owners, I am not sure about money lenders.

My theory is that since the subcastes were far and few in between, and largely these weren't endogamous. There is just a new subgroup called the Aroras that encompasses everyone that did not move.

agent_lime
04-04-2018, 05:45 AM
Yep, the Gangetic plains caste system ceases to work around the clan/tribe based Indus

Are the Punjabi Brahmins native to the region? They seem to be high in haplogroup J (21.43%) and R2 (25%)

They were not fully native, they would marry other Brahmins from North Western Indian states or would just move to Western Punjab from these regions.

heksindhi
04-04-2018, 03:14 PM
My theory is that since the subcastes were far and few in between, and largely these weren't endogamous.There is just a new subgroup called the Aroras that encompasses everyone that did not move.

Keep in mind that the census(es) quoted are from 1910-1931 - i.e. before any Hindus had any reason to leave.

At least as far as Balochistan is concerned, very few, if any, Hindus left in 1947. However, the post Soviet Invasion/Zia/Taliban years have not been kind to minorities and I suspect there has been greater impetus to migrate to India in the last 20 years...

As for the relationship of the Sindhi Aroras to Punjabi Khatris, I have nothing to add as Sapporo and MonkeyDLuffy are far more knowledgeable in that regard.

I do feel that the Aroras specifically seem to have an ancestral link to the Southern Indus area. Despite being a somewhat "Baloch shifted" Sindhi muslim (by descent - agnostic by choice), my largest number of DNA relatives on 23andMe are Sindhi Hindus. The most common surname among my matches - no big surprise - is Arora...

Arora (4)
Khan (4)
Mehra (4)
Rahimi (2)
Chandra (2)
Farhang (2)
Farhoomand (2)
Gulati (2)
Johnson (2)
Lavasani (2)
Manning (2)
Mohammadebrahim (2)
Nejat (2)
O'Brien (2)
Payvar (2)
Thadani (2)
Uttamchandani (2)

redifflal
04-04-2018, 03:49 PM
There is an old Bengali film built around a pilgrimage starting from Karachi to Hinglaj in Balochistan set in the 1940s. The subtitled version is on YouTube. The first part shows some typical Brahminical attitudes towards the whole region, and caste/community/morality commentary is depicted throughout the movie. Insightful for social attitudes in the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShfEAeUQmR8&list=PLyMgCLti6J9Cjk9ex_SUdEYWhf3sDqYnJ

khanabadoshi
04-05-2018, 05:59 AM
Keep in mind that the census(es) quoted are from 1910-1931 - i.e. before any Hindus had any reason to leave.

At least as far as Balochistan is concerned, very few, if any, Hindus left in 1947. However, the post Soviet Invasion/Zia/Taliban years have not been kind to minorities and I suspect there has been greater impetus to migrate to India in the last 20 years...

As for the relationship of the Sindhi Aroras to Punjabi Khatris, I have nothing to add as Sapporo and MonkeyDLuffy are far more knowledgeable in that regard.

I do feel that the Aroras specifically seem to have an ancestral link to the Southern Indus area. Despite being a somewhat "Baloch shifted" Sindhi muslim (by descent - agnostic by choice), my largest number of DNA relatives on 23andMe are Sindhi Hindus. The most common surname among my matches - no big surprise - is Arora...

Arora (4)
Khan (4)
Mehra (4)
Rahimi (2)
Chandra (2)
Farhang (2)
Farhoomand (2)
Gulati (2)
Johnson (2)
Lavasani (2)
Manning (2)
Mohammadebrahim (2)
Nejat (2)
O'Brien (2)
Payvar (2)
Thadani (2)
Uttamchandani (2)

I'm related to a good amount of the same people on 23andme as you are.

heksindhi
04-05-2018, 01:40 PM
I'm related to a good amount of the same people on 23andme as you are.


That would make sense, given you're from south-western Punjab and that region has historically been associated with Sindh. I suspect the 23andMe DNA relatives are potentially skewed since they primarily reflect the Sindhi diaspora in the US which is largely Hindu. Nonetheless, they do point to some deeper ancestral connections that admixture comparisons don't always show.

Saad2016
04-10-2018, 02:48 AM
That would make sense, given you're from south-western Punjab and that region has historically been associated with Sindh. I suspect the 23andMe DNA relatives are potentially skewed since they primarily reflect the Sindhi diaspora in the US which is largely Hindu. Nonetheless, they do point to some deeper ancestral connections that admixture comparisons don't always show.

what part of Sind r u from?

parasar
04-11-2018, 05:35 PM
Good post. Thanks for writing this out. One side of grandparents were from Multan (Dera Ghazi Khan). Since my grandparents aren't here anymore, I did have a chat with my father. His understanding was this-

- There were Hindu Brahmins. But they were rare, often they would marry into Brahmins from Gujrat or Rajasthan or Indian Punjab. Usually only 1 family were village. Makes sense that they are now gone ... We were land owners ...

Was your family Muhial by any chance?

agent_lime
04-12-2018, 02:37 PM
Was your family Muhial by any chance?

We don't go by the same name anymore but it wasn't Muhial (which is a brahmin caste). Grandma was Brahma Kshatri, Narula, grandfather was Popli, which is an Arora caste. Other side of family was from Northern Punjab and Kashmir(although they claim Khatri and are a Khatri caste).

shudra
05-11-2018, 05:20 AM
Ahuja are khatris. And all these sindhis have Khatris as closest matches. Makes me wonder if Khatris migrated from Sindh because they score high Caucasian just like Sindhis as well.
Certain Khatri groups did originate in Sindh such as the Arora, and Ahuja is an Arora surname, so its extremely plausible that certain Khatris are basically just Sindhis genetically who have taken on the Punjabi and Khatri identity.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-11-2018, 05:46 AM
Certain Khatri groups did originate in Sindh such as the Arora, and Ahuja is an Arora surname, so its extremely plausible that certain Khatris are basically just Sindhis genetically who have taken on the Punjabi and Khatri identity.

Sindh has/had khatri population anyway. Check out the comedian Atul khatri, he is Sindhi while his wife is Punjabi khatri.

Mingle
05-12-2018, 04:07 AM
I have a question regarding the Sindhi population references that show up on GEDmatch. Why are they referred to as generic 'Sindhi' with their tribe or bridari not being specified? Does anyone know what tribes the GEDmatch Sindhis belong to?

heksindhi
05-12-2018, 06:46 PM
I have a question regarding the Sindhi population references that show up on GEDmatch. Why are they referred to as generic 'Sindhi' with their tribe or bridari not being specified? Does anyone know what tribes the GEDmatch Sindhis belong to?

The Sindhi references are based on the HGDP Sindhi samples. Unfortunately, the Human Genome project did not bother to record any details around tribal affiliation. This is true for other HGDP samples such as Baloch/Brahui/Makrani/Pashtun as well. Given that they were collected from Pakistan, we can assume that most, if not all, of the Sindhi samples are muslim.

Mingle
05-12-2018, 08:00 PM
The Sindhi references are based on the HGDP Sindhi samples. Unfortunately, the Human Genome project did not bother to record any details around tribal affiliation. This is true for other HGDP samples such as Baloch/Brahui/Makrani/Pashtun as well. Given that they were collected from Pakistan, we can assume that most, if not all, of the Sindhi samples are muslim.

The tribal affiliation of Iranic people (and Brahuis) isn't all that relevant, although it would be nice to know for some people. The main differences among Iranics are geography-based. For Indic people, there can be a very significant difference between different tribes in nearly the same exact area. So the comparison isn't all that relevant IMO.

Any idea what Sindhi samples were used for the HarappaWorld population references?

Sapporo
05-12-2018, 08:15 PM
The tribal affiliation of Iranic people (and Brahuis) isn't all that relevant, although it would be nice to know for some people. The main differences among Iranics are geography-based. For Indic people, there can be a very significant difference between different tribes in nearly the same exact area. So the comparison isn't all that relevant IMO.

Any idea what Sindhi samples were used for the HarappaWorld population references?

There two HarappaWorld population references for Sindhis are Sindhi (Harappa) and Sindhi (HGDP). The first is made up of 2 individual Hindu Sindhi participants and the latter is the HGDP samples (we can infer they are Muslim as they score differently than Hindu Sindhis; much more shifted toward the HGDP Baloch). Below, I have a spreadsheet of kits for some NW South Asian populations (including Hindu Sindhis/Lohana).


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mTH_BnLv9riKKwHeNpjFmu7flT6_ekTuYij0juxnjb4/edit?usp=sharing

Here are the individual results for the HGDP Sindhi. Some clearly look Baloch admixed or even Makrani admixed (due to non negligible W African).

http://www.harappadna.org/2013/07/gujaratis-harappaworld-admixture/

Here are the coordinates from where the HGDP samples were gathered:

https://rosenberglab.stanford.edu/papers/PembertonEtAl2013-G3.pdf (see page 7)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...s0kXHYFQjEEnPw

I think I've seen slightly different coordinates listed in other sources for the HGDP samples but there wasn't much difference. See below what coordinates are used for the HGDP Pathan and HGDP Sindhis by the 2018 Reich paper. Now, it's possible the Pathan in Reich's paper are actually a distinct and separate sample group. Hence, the slightly different coordinates. For example, the HGDP team listed (32, 69) on the word doc above versus Reich's team listing (33.49, 70.50) in the excel doc below. With regards to the Sindhis, Reich's team listed the coordinates as (24.27, 68.70) so somewhere with proximity to Hyderabad. The HGDP word doc lists the coordinates for Sindhis as (25.5, 69) so somewhere near Mirpur Khas.

https://www.biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/90171/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/292581-2.xlsx


The reason I'm suggesting that Reich's paper may have got new samples is that the new 2018 Damgaard paper on Central Asia has 3 groups of new Pashtun samples (Yusufzai, Tarkalani & Utmankhel) and even Kohistani. My best guess is these samples are from around Lower Dir and Bajuar Agency based on their tribal affiliation. For the Kohistani, I'm not 100% certain where they were sampled from.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14237-1st-Look-at-Damgaard-et-al-2018-C-Asian-Samples

https://s9.postimg.cc/i3g9h52zz/k6xpucn.jpg

heksindhi
05-13-2018, 07:42 PM
The tribal affiliation of Iranic people (and Brahuis) isn't all that relevant, although it would be nice to know for some people. The main differences among Iranics are geography-based. For Indic people, there can be a very significant difference between different tribes in nearly the same exact area. So the comparison isn't all that relevant IMO.

Any idea what Sindhi samples were used for the HarappaWorld population references?

It would have been very useful to have the tribal affiliation of the Baloch/Brahui, if for no other reason than to verify whether they were correctly identified as Brahui or Baloch. There doesn't appear to be much difference between the 2 groups, but if there are indeed any minor differences, they would be much better detected if the relevant samples included specifics around tribe/clan as many tribes are bi-lingual/tri-lingual. Some tribes include clans that speak one language while the rest speak another...

As for the Sindhis, all the results I've seen indicate that the Sindhi are fairly homogeneous regardless of tribe (i.e. relatively speaking - compared to the Punjabis and Gujaratis). The one consistent pattern is that the Muslims are more Baloch shifted while the Hindus are steppe shifted (again, this is relatively speaking. All Sindhis - regardless of religion - tend more towards Baloch+ caucasian - or more accurately Iran_N and CHG)

Based on my own results, I would expect that Sindhis from regions proximal to Baloch populations would be more Baloch shifted.

khanabadoshi
07-02-2018, 08:50 AM
Reza, we gotta sort this thread out, we totally sidetracked in a Sindhi thread. I'm thinking we take everything after post 120 and put it in a new thread.

EDIT: OK, I moved everything from post 117 onward to: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14720-GIH-PJL-and-ASI-Oh-My!