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Squad
02-04-2018, 06:39 PM
As surprising as it sounds, a few years ago I discovered a small korean cluster under J1. Y-STRs wise, it looks quite weird and due to the restricted nature of the markers typed, I'm yet unable to resolve its position within the M267 tree. Distinctive values are recLOH'ed DYS385 = 13-13 or 13-14, DYS390 = 24, DYS391 = 9 and DYS439 = 14. Whether it belongs to P58 or not is not clear therefore, but if I had to say something, J-Z1828 would be the best fit. Had DYS388 been more regularly typed in such studies, it would be very easy to verify this since a value of 13 at this locus would basically confirm Z1828. Based on pretty large sample sizes, this cluster accounts for roughly 0.1% of korean males from South Korea and it would be interesting to explore the possibilities in what pertains to its presence in so eastern a place as Korea.

TuaMan
02-04-2018, 07:18 PM
Interesting, possibly a left over from medieval Muslim merchants in east Asia. There were Muslim trading colonies in various coastal Chinese cities dating back to at least the Song dynasty, and Koreans also had an established presence as middle-men between Chinese and Japanese trade as well, so perhaps they absorbed some of these foreign Muslims at certain points into their own communities.

J1 DYS388=13
02-05-2018, 10:01 AM
I've only ever seen one J1 Z1828 with DYS385=13-13. A Russian. He also has the unusual DYS390=24. ID 364217 on FTDNA's J1 Project.

Otherwise it's from the P58 side of J1.

A US serviceman maybe?

Ebizur
02-05-2018, 11:48 AM
Karafet et al. 2001
J-p1212(xJ2-M172)
3/30 = 10% Kazakhs
3/68 = 4.4% Uygurs
2/54 = 3.7% Uzbeks
1/52 = 1.9% Manchu
1/54 = 1.9% Hui
1/70 = 1.4% Vietnamese
1/147 = 0.68% Mongolians

J2-M172
4/54 = 7.4% Hui
4/54 = 7.4% Uzbeks
4/68 = 5.9% Uygurs
1/30 = 3.3% Kazakhs
1/44 = 2.3% Northern Han (Shanxi or Shaanxi)
3/147 = 2.0% Mongolians
1/70 = 1.4% Vietnamese
1/75 = 1.3% Tibetans
1/81 = 1.2% Buryats
1/95 = 1.1% Siberian Evenks

Shou et al. 2010 (all samples from Northwest China)
J-M304(xJ2-M172)
1/19 = 5.3% Russians
1/23 = 4.3% Uzbeks
1/32 = 3.1% Sibe
1/35 = 2.9% Dongxiang
1/41 = 2.4% Kazakhs

J2-M172
17/50 = 34% Uygurs
7/23 = 30.4% Uzbeks
5/31 = 16.1% Tajiks (i.e. Pamiris)
2/32 = 6.3% Yugurs
1/50 = 2.0% Tu (i.e. Monguors)

Katoh et al. 2005
J-12f2
2/40 = 5.0% Khoton (i.e. Oirat/Western Mongolian Muslims or former Muslims)
2/85 = 2.4% Khalkh
1/60 = 1.7% Zakhchin
1/79 = 1.3% Korean Chinese (i.e. ethnic Korean citizens of the PRC)

Also cf. the Wikipedia article on Islam in Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Korea).

My guess at this point (pending higher resolution data regarding the Y-DNA of such Koreans) is that they (or at least some of them) may be descendants of Muslims who have immigrated to Korea via Central Asia and China.

Ebizur
02-10-2018, 12:28 PM
Whether it belongs to P58 or not is not clear therefore, but if I had to say something, J-Z1828 would be the best fit. Had DYS388 been more regularly typed in such studies, it would be very easy to verify this since a value of 13 at this locus would basically confirm Z1828.In a sample of 160 Mongols from Mongolia analyzed by Di Cristofaro et al. (2013), Y-DNA haplogroup J1 was found in 1/18 of a subset from central Mongolia and in 1/97 of a subset from northwestern Mongolia. The Y-DNA of both these individuals was reported to belong to the J1a2a1a2-Page8 subclade.

Mongol/Central Mongolia (Di Cristofaro et al. 2013)
1/18 C2c1a1a1-M407
4/18 C2b1a2a-M86
3/18 C2b-M532(xC2b1a2a-M86, C2b1a3-M504/M546, C2b1a3a-M401) [Roughly equivalent to C2b-L1373.]
1/18 C2b1a3a-M401
2/18 D1a2a1-M533
1/18 J1a2a1a2-Page8
1/18 N1a2b-P43
1/18 O2a2b1a1-M117
1/18 Q1a1a-M120
1/18 Q1a2-M25
2/18 R1b1a1a1a-M478 [A subclade of R1b-M73.]

Mongol/Northwest Mongolia (Di Cristofaro et al. 2013)
3/97 C2c-M386(xC2c1a1a1-M407)
6/97 C2c1a1a1-M407
29/97 C2b1a2a-M86
2/97 C2b-M532(xC2b1a2a-M86, C2b1a3-M504/M546, C2b1a3a-M401)
11/97 C2b1a3a-M401
1/97 D1a2a-P47(xD1a2a1-M533)
1/97 I2a2-M436(xI2a2a-M223)
1/97 J1a2a1a2-Page8
2/97 J2a-M410(xJ2a1-Page55)
1/97 J2a1-P55(xM530, M67, M92)
1/97 J2a1-M530(xDYS445=6)
1/97 J2a1b-M67(xJ2a1b1-M92)
1/97 N1a2b-P43
12/97 N1a1-Tat
1/97 O-M175(xO1a-M119, O1b1a1a-M95, O1b2-M176, O2-M122)
3/97 O2-M122(xO2a1-KL2, O2a2-P201)
2/97 O2a2-P201(xO2a2b1-M134)
4/97 O2a2b1-M134(xO2a2b1a1-M117)
3/97 O2a2b1a1-M117
1/97 Q-M242(xQ1a1a-M120, Q1a2-M25, Q1b-M346, Q2a1-M378)
1/97 Q1a1a-M120
5/97 Q1b-M346
2/97 R1a1a-M198/M17
2/97 R1b1a1a1a-M478
1/97 R1b1a1a2a-L23(xL11, U106, S116, U152)

I note that the subset from northwestern Mongolia (i.e. the vicinity of the Altai Mountains) contains as many members of J2a as it contains members of R1.

Squad
02-10-2018, 10:29 PM
I'm actually aware of those mongolian cases, but they don't have anything to do with this korean cluster. They have DYS385 = 12-17 and 14-19 and the other values don't match either. On the other hand, I've just found an interesting M267+ uzbek case from Kazakhstan with DYS385 = 14-14, DYS391 = 9 and DYS390 = 25.

Yaroslav
02-23-2018, 07:57 AM
a few years ago I discovered a small korean cluster under J1

Thank you for the information! Where did you find it? Some scientific paper?

Squad
02-24-2018, 02:57 AM
Thank you for the information! Where did you find it? Some scientific paper?

The first time J was reported in Korea was in a 2006 study comprising 43 Koreans but it was not further resolved. Many years later, I was extensively looking at Y-STR studies, most of whom from forensics, and I came across this cluster which made me remember this J case from 2006.

dnshcountry
02-24-2018, 03:19 AM
^ I'm not really surprised by this. There are actually quite a few Korean clans that trace their ancestry back to the Uighur (a central asian ethnic group in West China), and to this day there are a handful of Koreans who actually look like they could be descendants of those Central Asian/Muslim traders. Koreans are largely homogenous but both their paternal and maternal sources show migrations from many different locations, including Central Asia.

Sorry if this is a big of a tangent, but I thought it'd be relevant to bring this here. I've noticed that on Humanphenotypes.net, they show that the distribution of Turanid extends all the way from Southeastern europe/Central Asia to Southeast Siberia and more than half of the Korean peninsula. Do you know why they did this?

Yes, I know I just said there's some Central Asian influence in Koreans, but I don't think pure forms of Turanid exist - if it exists, it's often mixed with either tungid and sinid, and thus the result looks more "aralid". There are also far more Koreans who have Siberian ancestry but for some reason humanpheontypes doesn't show that.

A long time lurker of this forum and just decided to make my first post today :)

dnshcountry
02-24-2018, 03:28 AM
Also, can someone tell me how to link images here? (I'm new).

I want to link some images of the distribution of Y-haplogroups of Korean males by region but I keep getting an error message. Thanks.

Squad
02-24-2018, 07:01 PM
^ I'm not really surprised by this. There are actually quite a few Korean clans that trace their ancestry back to the Uighur (a central asian ethnic group in West China), and to this day there are a handful of Koreans who actually look like they could be descendants of those Central Asian/Muslim traders. Koreans are largely homogenous but both their paternal and maternal sources show migrations from many different locations, including Central Asia.

Sorry if this is a big of a tangent, but I thought it'd be relevant to bring this here. I've noticed that on Humanphenotypes.net, they show that the distribution of Turanid extends all the way from Southeastern europe/Central Asia to Southeast Siberia and more than half of the Korean peninsula. Do you know why they did this?

Yes, I know I just said there's some Central Asian influence in Koreans, but I don't think pure forms of Turanid exist - if it exists, it's often mixed with either tungid and sinid, and thus the result looks more "aralid". There are also far more Koreans who have Siberian ancestry but for some reason humanpheontypes doesn't show that.

A long time lurker of this forum and just decided to make my first post today :)

Well, you have to know that this cluster is unlike anything found in the Uighur so far or other ''muslim'' central asian populations except for the one Uzbek sample from Kazakhstan which I talked about like two posts ago but it was only tested for 12 markers at ftDNA unfortunately. The cluster is very weird.

dnshcountry
02-24-2018, 11:08 PM
Ok, I see your point.

So is this cluster only observed among Koreans?

Pegasusphm1
02-28-2018, 12:06 PM
UN Turk soldier?