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View Full Version : Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans (R1a1a1 M417, R1b1a2a1 L51) (R1b L23?, R1b M73?, Etc.)



Fire Haired
09-19-2013, 03:17 AM
Archaeology and common Y DNA in modern Indo European speakers which age estimates show migrations starting in certain areas 7,000-5,000ybp. Show that Indo European languages most likely started, or took off and spread from these areas.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37024&d=1378166767


Traditionally in the Kurgan theory (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKurgan_ hypothesis&ei=IyglUsalDeeayAGJ8oHoAg&usg=AFQjCNF40cSw0rgglZQTleNfEJPdXjqERQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)proto Indo European languages (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FProto-Indo-European_language&ei=PiglUuaCJ8nEyQGlpIDQBA&usg=AFQjCNE6Cogc3PPdBeU7yhGOrFtwuDXqPA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)began around Bug Dniester culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug-Dniester_culture)in Ukraine about 7,000ybp and in Yamna culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FYamna_c ulture&ei=oSglUoiOLoPuyQHK1oGQAw&usg=AFQjCNHb6Rh3o3cAWFpKHCAPoWXk2Xd4rQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) in Russia and Dnieper Donets Ukraine starting about 5,600ybp. Since there are 6,000 year old Kurgans in both southeast Poland and Caucus that kind of extends were very early Indo Europeans were to the Caucus and north mid east and deeper in Europe.

So far we know that R1a1a1 M417 is for sure a proto Indo European marker and is from the Dnieper Donets and Yamna Ukraine Russia area. It spread with Balto Slavic languages out of Yamna culture forming into Corded ware around 5,000ybp and R1a1a1b1 Z283. Indo Iranian migrating out of Yamna culture forming into Sinshat and Abashevo and Y DNa R1a1a1b2 Z93.

Also Y DNA from supposedly proto Balto Slavic culture Corded ware (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCorded_ Ware_culture&ei=1CklUvTLOaveyQHN9oBY&usg=AFQjCNG8a_yp5nZRFuoQQMXp3bhNuofzOw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)two from 4,800ybp in Poland were G and I or J and two from 4,600ybp in central Germany were at least R1a1a M17. Seven Y DNA samples from 4,000 year old Tarim mummies in west China who were suspected to be connected with early Indo Iranian speakers all were at least R1a1a M17. Four 3,800-3,400 year old Y DNA samples from supposedly early Indo Iranian Andronovo culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAndrono vo_culture&ei=-yklUuX1JcemygGUhoDQCQ&usg=AFQjCNEaLFVEgbJw5cLp6qYkTwoYbCeJyQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) in central Siberia three had at least R1a1a M17 and one had C probably from Mongoloid Siberians.

So Y DNA from cultures the Kurgan theory say were early Indo Iranian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIndo-Iranian_languages&ei=DiolUuj_NIWMyQHO6oDIBQ&usg=AFQjCNEjivmBbuBpErAymLV4YbmDH6a6Zw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) or early Balto Slavic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBalto-Slavic_languages&ei=TColUuS0JIz8yAGRmoHABA&usg=AFQjCNFNKjIgFdjI5to8Gaj7DaCaF77xsg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) speakers all back up the idea that R1a1a1 M417 is a early early Indo European Y DNA haplogroup from the Ukraine-Russia Bug Dniester (http://bug%20dniester%20culture/)-Yamna (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FYamna_c ulture&ei=oSglUoiOLoPuyQHK1oGQAw&usg=AFQjCNHb6Rh3o3cAWFpKHCAPoWXk2Xd4rQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) cultures. There is also a western European branch most likely from Germanic Italo Celts R1a1a1a L664. The proto Germanic Italo Celts were dominated by R1b1a2a L23 then R1b1a2a1 L51 but they probably picked up some R1a1a1 M417 since they were so close to other Indo Europeans in Russia Ukraine area 5,000-6,000ybp. So it seems they then formed their own branch. So the common ancestor of all those Indo European R1a branches is R1a1a1 M417.

Here is a migration map of Indo European R1a1a1 M417 made by Eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg (http://www.theapricity.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg)
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif

Fire Haired
09-19-2013, 03:18 AM
The other just about for sure Y DNA that spread with Indo European languages is Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51. R1b L51-L11 Germanic Italo Celtc (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?89535-R1b-L51-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-Rulers-and-conqueres-of-Bronze-Iron-age-west-Europe). What is weird is unlike R1a1a1 M417 which shows its origin in the traditional areas by the kurgan theory to be the Indo European homeland. R1b1a2a1 L51 father's seems to be from the middle east around Iraq, Anatolia, and the Caucus. It's father R1b1a2a L23 is centered in those areas and popular in the Balkans in southeastern Europe. I could not find any other info about the origin of R1b1a2a L23 but from what I have seen people say it comes from a migration out of the middle east.

Since there is a 6,000 year old Kurgan in the Caucus and Maykop culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMaykop_ culture&ei=vyklUsu5LuLsyQHjsoGYDA&usg=AFQjCNEJiEUXAfp0f05JY0204jjHYg-qoA&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) (5,700-4,500ybp) in the Caucus and north eastern Anatolia. Shows very early Indo Europeans were in that area which could be were this R1b is from. I don't really know but since Germanic Italo Celt father R1b1a2a L23 is so popular even as south as Iraq makes me think that possibly Maykop had a origin around there and maybe proto Indo European or proto proto Indo European languages originated around that area.

R1b1a2a L23 then could be considered as a Indo European Y DNA haplogroup. But since it is so popular in areas that were never Indo European well I guess the Kurds and the Medes but they were Indo Iranians and we know have nothing to do with R1b1a2a L23. I think most is not Indo European. R1b1a2a2 Z2103 might be connected with Anatolian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages), Greek (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGreek_l anguage&ei=FislUrf_L-jIyAGz44HIAg&usg=AFQjCNF3buBgV4ygcNq-TUsCid3uYWKFjw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc), and Indo European languages around the Balkans like Thracian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThracia ns&ei=LCslUpniMuOIyAHVwoC4Aw&usg=AFQjCNE_gqpMEdYAQZLn60X-67mC07XLiQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)-Dacian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDacia&ei=RCslUuOdGeygyAGV34HQBw&usg=AFQjCNEQuRYEG515_49cbozxaglm7TVAow&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) and Illyrian (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIllyria ns&ei=XCslUt_AMcaiyAGr8oCgCA&usg=AFQjCNEya02ZV1ehEXr5LrjIrBJw94nA0A&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc). Also R1b M73 shows connection of spreading with Indo Iranian languages but probably did not originate with Indo European speakers like R1a1a1 M417 and R1b1a2a1 L51 probably did.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif

Eupedia migration map of R1b. I dis agree with R1b1a2 M269 originating in Europe. I think R1b made the same type of migration out of the mid east to Europe but as R1b1a2a L23.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

Here is a map of R1a in Europe. Almost all is under Indo European R1a1a1 M417. The vast majority is under Balto Slavic (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBalto-Slavic_languages&ei=0wElUtTbEZCgyAHtqIDACg&usg=AFQjCNFNKjIgFdjI5to8Gaj7DaCaF77xsg&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc)Corded ware culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCorded_ Ware_culture&ei=4QElUtroO4mqyQGPuYGABA&usg=AFQjCNG8a_yp5nZRFuoQQMXp3bhNuofzOw&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWc) R1a1a1b1 Z283.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif
Here is a total map of R1a. Seems like who ever made this had less info than Eupedia. Almost all is under Indo European r1a1a1 M416 i already explained in Europe for Asia and parts of north eastern Europe it is just about 100% Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93.
http://www.hartleyfamily.org.uk/haplogroupR1a.JPG

Map of R1b in Europe. Almost all is under Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 except in the mid east, southeastern Europe, and Mediterranean were this is some R1b1a2a L23.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

Map of Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a1 S116/P312.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

Map of Germanic R1b1a2a1a2 S21/U106.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

U can see by these maps Indo European Y DNA is extremely popular. The reason is Indo Europeans spread their language, culture, and religion almost only by conquest. So the native men were killed way more than the native women because they fought in wars and were seen as a threat. Also when Indo Europeans won they could force as many native women to be their wives. So they had way more offspring with the native women than Indo European women had with native men and in pretty much all cultures women are only allowed to have one husband while in some and alot of ancient ones men could have about as many wives and mistresses as they wanted. High ranking people and Chiefs sometimes had over 1,000 women. So this lead to Indo European speaking people direct male lineage to be heavily Indo European.

Indo European speaking people dont mainly descend from the first people to speak their language almost all mainly descend from people who lived in that area before their language spread, Except for maybe people in the British isles.

parasar
09-19-2013, 01:56 PM
Here is a migration map of Indo European R1a1a1 M417 made by Eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg (http://www.theapricity.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg)
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif

While the overall scheme looks about correct I think these time lines are suspect.
A couple of points.
1. Western Europe is the more likely point of origin for R1a-M417.
2. Eupedia's map look to be missing the presence of L657 in Arabia, the likelier route into India would be through the Middle East rather than Central Asia.

newtoboard
09-19-2013, 02:52 PM
While the overall scheme looks about correct I think these time lines are suspect.
A couple of points.
1. Western Europe is the more likely point of origin for R1a-M417.
2. Eupedia's map look to be missing the presence of L657 in Arabia, the likelier route into India would be through the Middle East rather than Central Asia.

You are in a minority with both of those viewpoints.

parasar
09-19-2013, 04:16 PM
You are in a minority with both of those viewpoints.

Others think that it is possible too, but yes I am a minority in thinking that western Europe is more likely place of origin for M417.


...

In other words, the fact that the two major sub-branches of M417 expanded most likely from the opposite ends of the European continent make nearly every location between Atlantic and Ural almost equally likely candidate for a potential homeland of M417. Of course, when taking into account some additional information (including all the data provided by archaeology, ancient DNA and the phylogenetic relationship between R1a, R1b, R2, P and Q), it seems much more likely that R1a-M417 was born in Eastern Europe rather than in the North-Western part of this continent.

...

Regarding L657 I have not seen any analysis indicating that it entered India from Central Asia.

newtoboard
09-19-2013, 04:39 PM
Others think that it is possible too, but yes I am a minority in thinking that western Europe is more likely place of origin for M417.



Regarding L657 I have not seen any analysis indicating that it entered India from Central Asia.


And where is the analysis showing R1a-L657+ entered India from Arabia? How do you know R1a-L657+ didn't originate in South Asia?

parasar
09-19-2013, 05:01 PM
And where is the analysis showing R1a-L657+ entered India from Arabia? How do you know R1a-L657+ didn't originate in South Asia?

IMO, a South Asian origin for L657 is the likeliest, followed by an Arabian or Persian one, followed by Central Asian one.
I am not saying that L657 entered India from the Middle East, just that if L657 entered India from outside then Middle East is likelier than Central Asia.

alan
09-19-2013, 08:50 PM
i think the traditional Kurgan hypothesis looks like a subset of the IE story and it doesnt work alone. Most IE does not look like it was spread by Kurgan building steppe nomads. All they seem to have done is Europe is reached the most steppe-like areas of Europe like parts of Hungary etc, similar to the areas settled by later steppe intruders. The question still remains open IMO as to whether steppe cultures are the actual origins of PIE or if they were just among its receivers and a secondary spreader. The collapse of old Europe as much as the intrusion of the steppes peoples at the same time does create a major population dispersal scenario. It is also a scenario of dispersal of people who were already farmers and could spread into farming zones while steppe intruders seem to have confined themselves to steppe type areas when they spread into old Europe.

Prior to that period, it was the farmers in and around the Balkans that were sending out settlers even into steppe type cultures like Sredny Stog and its variants. They were like go-between in the first metallurgical province that spread from the Balkans into the steppes as far as the Urals. There are also lithic changes that flowed in the same direction. It has also been shown that farming type peoples, particularly on the male side were to some extent involved in Sredny Stog related groups. There is no doubt who was the donor and who was the receiver in this relationship at that time. Given that similar models in reverse have been presented for the spread of IE across Europe, I dont think it can be ruled totally out that the influence and apparently movement of farming groups beyond the Cuc-Tryp area would have spread languages. I particularly wonder about the Sredny Stog groups on the Dnieper and east to the Don at the boundary with farmer groups. They not only seemed to be strongly under the influence of farming groups and acting as a go between in the Balko-Carpathian metal trade but they also seem to include farming people in their mix, especially males. I certainly wouldnt be surprised if this was capable of spreading languages. Its certainly on the same level of evidence for IE languages spreading west within the Kurgan theory.

I just dont think its a close case as yet.

Fire Haired
09-19-2013, 09:30 PM
While the overall scheme looks about correct I think these time lines are suspect.
A couple of points.
1. Western Europe is the more likely point of origin for R1a-M417.
2. Eupedia's map look to be missing the presence of L657 in Arabia, the likelier route into India would be through the Middle East rather than Central Asia.

Since Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 and Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 and Germanic R1a1a1a all decend from R1a1a1 M417 urkiane Russia area is most likley were it orignated. about Indo Iranian R1a coming from the mid eastl U dont understand the whole background in Indo Iranians today they only live in the mid east the ones like Sycthians in central asia were conquered by Tukrs in the mid ages. Indo Iranian languages used to dominate central Asia and from there went to the mid east they did not arrive in India and Iran till 3,500ybp.

Since By archaeology early Indo Iranian cultures Abashevo and Sinshta trace back to north eastern Europe then central asia then their father is Yamna in Russia and Ukraine. Again the mid east source doesn't make sense. There has been Y DNA testing on suspected early Indo Iranian Andronovo culture in south and central Siberia from 3,800-3,400ybp before Indo Iranian languages arrived in India and they had R1a1 also they had pale skin and mixed fair hair and brown hair and fair eyes and brown eyes obviously originally from Europe. The origin of Indo European R1a1a1 M417 and how it spread is being figured out pretty well.

The Arabian R1a i would like to know what its other name is like R1a13bh? that helps alot so u know were it fits in the tree. If it is not descended from R1a1a1 M417 or R1a1a1b1 Z92 that would be huge news and evidence for R1a being originally from the mid east.

Fire Haired
09-19-2013, 09:35 PM
i think the traditional Kurgan hypothesis looks like a subset of the IE story and it doesnt work alone. Most IE does not look like it was spread by Kurgan building steppe nomads. All they seem to have done is Europe is reached the most steppe-like areas of Europe like parts of Hungary etc, similar to the areas settled by later steppe intruders. The question still remains open IMO as to whether steppe cultures are the actual origins of PIE or if they were just among its receivers and a secondary spreader. The collapse of old Europe as much as the intrusion of the steppes peoples at the same time does create a major population dispersal scenario. It is also a scenario of dispersal of people who were already farmers and could spread into farming zones while steppe intruders seem to have confined themselves to steppe type areas when they spread into old Europe.

Prior to that period, it was the farmers in and around the Balkans that were sending out settlers even into steppe type cultures like Sredny Stog and its variants. They were like go-between in the first metallurgical province that spread from the Balkans into the steppes as far as the Urals. There are also lithic changes that flowed in the same direction. It has also been shown that farming type peoples, particularly on the male side were to some extent involved in Sredny Stog related groups. There is no doubt who was the donor and who was the receiver in this relationship at that time. Given that similar models in reverse have been presented for the spread of IE across Europe, I dont think it can be ruled totally out that the influence and apparently movement of farming groups beyond the Cuc-Tryp area would have spread languages. I particularly wonder about the Sredny Stog groups on the Dnieper and east to the Don at the boundary with farmer groups. They not only seemed to be strongly under the influence of farming groups and acting as a go between in the Balko-Carpathian metal trade but they also seem to include farming people in their mix, especially males. I certainly wouldnt be surprised if this was capable of spreading languages. Its certainly on the same level of evidence for IE languages spreading west within the Kurgan theory.

I just dont think its a close case as yet.

I totally get what ur saying. The Kurgen hypthiesis so far can only explain the spread of Balto SLavic(R1a1a1b1 Z283) and iNdo Iranian (R1a1a1b2 Z93). The R1b1a2a1a L11 in Germanic Italo Celts orignally has a mid eastern origin its grandfather o great great grandfathers. So I als think the steppe like Yamna are just one part of Indo Europeans not the origin. I still think Kurgens are huge maybe doesn't explain all spread of Indo Europeans or proto Indo Europeans but is important. The Neloithic stuff no way do i agree with that deifntley does not math Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe or Balto Slavic in eastern and probably not Thracens-Dacians, Greeks, and Iyllirans.

alan
09-19-2013, 10:28 PM
I am not even sure Kurgan cultures per se explain Balto-Slavic either. The mainstream explanation for them is the corded ware related groups pushing east in the form of Abashevo and Fatyanovo cultures. Its fair enough to imagine that they were influence by Yamnaya etc but they are different and have a big corded element. Corded ware is not a kurgan culture. So, actual steppe-cultures in Europe dont tend to be associated with any particular branch other than Iranian and a hypothetical link with Tocharian. IMO the Kurgan theory fails to explain much in Europe unless it is extremely heavily qualified using link cultures like corded ware etc. The degree of special pleading required makes me suspicious of it. However, that is not to say I do not agree with the general PIE area being somewhere around the circum-Pontic-Capsian and sometime around the proposed time c. 4000BC. But I am suspicious of the detail as currently presented.

The PIE Uralic borrowing arguement for placing the PIE homeland around the Ural-Caspian area seems very unsafe now that proto-uralic is being re-dated long after PIE, most of the borrowings seem post-PIE and indeed it appears structurally to have spread from east to west starting way to the east. Much of this new evidence has emerged since Anthony wrote. So, remove the Uralic plank in the arguement, which surely has to be done, and a rather wider possible PIE homeland opens up. It might be long term that the strong IE structural aspects, although not in terms of vocab, in more than one Caucasus language group may actually be much more significant than the unlikely looking Uralic arguements.

That does of course bring to mind Maykop, the first culture with the really large Kurgans and the origin point of the Circumpontic metal network. Their strongest links to Maykop now appears in the latest paper to be with NW Iran, a natural link that bypasses the Caucasus mountains. There are Maykop kurgas in NW Iran While Maykop proper only extended into the fringes of the steppes there were pockers of settlers on the Don, Azov etc and its influence and importance in term of metallurgy and hierachical behavour may have been much wider. It was certainly in the right general zone, especially after 3500BC, to have been influential on Yamnaya but not early enough to have had a role in the pre-Yamnaya steppes movements west c. 4000BC which Anthony links to the Anatolian branch. IMO Maykop had a role in the social development of PIE society even if it was not the linguistic root and certainly some of Maykop elements, whatever their yDNA, surely would have been absorbed into the steppe groups and become PIE speaking.

Maykop provides one possible route for R1b to reach the steppes if it was not already there. A recent study of the Caucasus showed that, other than Armenians - who many think came from the Balkans in the Bronze Age- the vast majority of L23 is actually on the north side of the Caucasus in the old Maykop zone. This is contrary to many peoples assumptions. Its actually far easier to travel from NW Iran to the north Caucasus than it would have been to travel between the often impassible and dangerous north and south Caucasus through the Great Caucasus ridge.

However, its just a possibility that R1b is linked to Maykop. There are other options such as a presence before that in the steppes or some sort of Neolithic Balkans link. I dont think anyone can make a definate call on this other than to say that the age and direction of spread of R1b makes it pretty well the only candidate for the spread of IE languages through a large amount of Europe where R1a is lacking.


I totally get what ur saying. The Kurgen hypthiesis so far can only explain the spread of Balto SLavic(R1a1a1b1 Z283) and iNdo Iranian (R1a1a1b2 Z93). The R1b1a2a1a L11 in Germanic Italo Celts orignally has a mid eastern origin its grandfather o great great grandfathers. So I als think the steppe like Yamna are just one part of Indo Europeans not the origin. I still think Kurgens are huge maybe doesn't explain all spread of Indo Europeans or proto Indo Europeans but is important. The Neloithic stuff no way do i agree with that deifntley does not math Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe or Balto Slavic in eastern and probably not Thracens-Dacians, Greeks, and Iyllirans.

Fire Haired
09-19-2013, 11:19 PM
Alan the fact is that Two 4,600ybp Y DNa samples from Corded ware both R1a1. Also Balto Slavs have R1a1a1b1 Z283 brother to Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93. Corded ware culture partly because of those samples defintley was proto Balto SLavic now we have DNA we don't just go off of archaeology. Early Indo Iranians like tarim mummies also come up R1a1 not a surprise and those are the cultures Kurgen hypothesis suspected. The KUrgen hypthesis deifntley explains the basic's of the spread f Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages out of Russia and Ukraine Bug Dniester and Yamna culture's.

Maykop and 6,000 year old Kurgen in the Caucus is deifntley evidence of Indo Europeans in that area as early as in Russia and Ukraine and could be the source of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 fathers. I don't by in with the Uralic stuff either. Y DNa N1c1 and Kunda culture in my opinon seem to be the source of Uralic languages in Europe. N1c1c and Kunda deifntley are connected. and i think Uralic is much older than Indo European possibly 10,000 years old and definley was started and almost always existed in hunter gathers. Kunda existed as long as 8,000 years ago so if it is connected Uralic languages must be very old.

Since Y DNa R1a1a1 M417 and samples from suspected early Balto Slavic and indo Iranian cultures totally makes me think the Kurgen theory was on to something. I do think ultimately Corded ware descended from Yamna culture. How old are the Maykop Kurgens in Iran it could explain why R1b1a2a L23 is 20-30% in Anatolia, Iraq, Caucus, and northwest Iran maybe there were pre historic Indo Europeans that were whipped out then later Indo Iranians came. Maykop is deifntley related to steppe Kurgen cultures and they defintley traded with people in the steppes. I don't think Yamna is proto Indo European but is early Indo European. I am starting to think maybe Indo European languages began around the north mid east maybe 8,000 years ago then spread to the steppes and really took off and spread from there.

Since proto Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 Corded ware culture started about 5,00ybp same with migrations out of the steppes into central Asia which brought Indo Iranian languages and R1a1a1b2 Z93. also R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts started to spread at the earliest about 5,000ybp. Do u think this could mean that there was sometype of new technology spreading or something else that caused all of these HUGE migrations to happen around the same time. I guess Germanic Italo Celts ancestral languages would have had to first went through eastern Europe. FTDNA says that R1b1a2a L23 moved to the Balkans were is somewhat popular 7,000-8,000ybp(click here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=results)). That could mean that later it went to western Europe developing into R1b1a2a1a L11 bu then whata bout R1b1a2a1 L51 which is in between. Is it pretty much only Europan or does it also have a mid eastern origin.

This also could mean that Indo European languages are from the Neolithic mid east. Because possibly if R1b1a2a L23 came to the Balkans in the Neolithic then later spread Germanic Italo celtic languages. Maybe Thracian-Dacian, Greek, and Iylliran were from those Neolithic R1b1a2a L23 people. I guess Greek spread out of that area later, That is a stretch but i am just thinking about it.

What sources do u have to say R1b1a2a L23 is popular north of Caucus in Russia.

AJL
09-20-2013, 12:02 AM
I totally get what ur saying. The Kurgen hypthiesis so far can only explain the spread of Balto SLavic(R1a1a1b1 Z283) and iNdo Iranian (R1a1a1b2 Z93). The R1b1a2a1a L11 in Germanic Italo Celts orignally has a mid eastern origin its grandfather o great great grandfathers. So I als think the steppe like Yamna are just one part of Indo Europeans not the origin. I still think Kurgens are huge maybe doesn't explain all spread of Indo Europeans or proto Indo Europeans but is important. The Neloithic stuff no way do i agree with that deifntley does not math Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe or Balto Slavic in eastern and probably not Thracens-Dacians, Greeks, and Iyllirans.

Hello Fire Haired and welcome to these forums. Please acquaint yourself with Anthrogenica's rules

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7-Terms-of-Service-and-Forum-Rules

and most especially clause 3.6:


3.6 A reasonable degree of grammatical coherency and punctuation on public postings is mandatory.

Even people with profound dyslexia can use free online spell checking tools.

Dr_McNinja
09-20-2013, 01:18 AM
Eupedia thinks J2a and J2b subclades of J2, G2a and R2 were spread to India by the Indo-Europeans:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

The theory is these diffused to Central Asia through the Caucasus, Anatolia, or Eastern Europe (when the Indo-Europeans made it to Neolithic Balkans, which was a farming civilization, probably imported to the Balkans from the Mideast by J2 Phoenicians) and became minority lineages in an overall R1a population.

(J2 with no subclades probably has a different and more recent point of origin into the subcontinent from the mideast)

BMG
09-20-2013, 02:02 AM
Eupedia thinks J2a and J2b subclades of J2, G2a and R2 were spread to India by the Indo-Europeans:



There is no need for R2 and J2b2 to be associated with indo european spread .It is probably older that that .Even some clades of R1a like L657 could predate indo european arrival . I think most probable canditates for indo european spread could be R1a-Z2123 ,G-P15 along with some J2a clades and R2-L295- .

Dr_McNinja
09-20-2013, 02:06 AM
I do think though that J2, G2a, and R2 may have been picked up by migrating R1a1a1b2 Z93 Indo Iranians before arriving in India.Yeah, that's the main hypothesis at Eupedia as well.


Because the Indo iranians were bronze age nomadic tribes. Not civilized like Indus valley civilization. They learned to write they obvisouly had trade with civlizations in the mid east. and were probably European mid eastern hyprids when they arrived in India and Iran.Some of them no doubt were. There were probably multiple waves from both the North and West. But J2b2 is not present anywhere in West/Southwest Asia, it's only in Balkans/Anatolia and India. That's more easily explained by a route through Central Asia rather than West Asia because in Central Asia you could expect a small group to not leave any trace behind, but in West Asia there should have been some J2b2 left behind.


There's high This could mean that the INdo arayans came into India as pretty much most like Iranians dominted by west asian with little north euro from the first Indo iranian speakers. Then killed off the natives and India used to be dominted by Draviden like people.

I dont know maybe thats true. and from what i know aren't Brahmins not allowed to inter marry with lower classes and are suppose to be like 100% from the Indo Aryan invaders who came about 3,500ybp. Which could explain why i have heard they have 70% R1a1a1b2 Z93. Maybe they are 100% from those invaders. The Rig Veda was written i guess around 3,000-3,500ybp i dont know that much about it. But if the Indo iranians came to India 100% INdo Iranian like Scythian's and Andronovo people. Then they would have been white with mainly light hair and eyes with over 1% red hair like their remains. But does the Rig Veda every mention that they were shocked by the dark skin or physcal differnce of the people in India which u should except NO. So it makes sense they were most like Iranians and Pakistni when they arrived or really Indians.I'm not sure Indians would have been shocked by lighter colored people, and the post-Indus Valley Vedic-civilization is Indo-European, it was probably strongly influenced and started by those very light skinned people so why would they be shocked by their own appearance?

Also Brahmins have the third highest NE-Euro in Harappa Project after Afghans (second, probably due to the strong Central Asian link) and Jatts (highest in Haryana Jatts). The Jatts from Haryana have 17-20% NE-Euro but their Baloch/West Asian is slightly lower than surrounding populations (Punjabi Jatts have several percent more Baloch/West Asian but their NE-Euro is in the low teens). There are other groups who have high West Asian but very low NE-Euro as well. The Jatts have been in India for at least 2000 years.

The Caucasian admixture for Haryana Jatts is also lower than all the other Jatts from Punjab. Caucasian and NE-Euro seem to have reverse trends. The higher the Caucasian, the lower the NE-Euro, and vice-versa. Only in Afghans and Central Asians to the north is there a solid low to mid teens in NE-Euro with at least 20% Caucasian. But with the Haryana Jatts their average Caucasian is less than 10 but their NE-Euro more than double... combined with the fact the average NE-Euro in Iranians is only 4%, so their NE-Euro component is highly likely I think to have come from the north, not west. Migrations from the West probably drove the NE-Euro admixture down rather than up (so West Asian seems, like Caucasian, to have an inverse relationship with NE-Euro admixture in Indians).

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved

parasar
09-20-2013, 02:08 AM
Eupedia thinks J2a and J2b subclades of J2, G2a and R2 were spread to India by the Indo-Europeans:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml...

I wonder what they think about K*, F*, and H - now that we have more clarity on the phylogenic relationships among F-M89, G-P287 and HIJK-M578.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7314_nsGxkU/UfrlVzgqgSI/AAAAAAAAI_I/zGmoi0R5-Jw/s1600/F2.large.jpg

Dr_McNinja
09-20-2013, 02:09 AM
It is probably older that thatIt might be, but the Eupedia argument has several good points which make a more compelling case than just guessing pre-Neolithic, which also has problems (not the least of which is no history to back up a major movement direct from the Balkans to India without any stops inbetween that far back). The J2b2 heatmap in India overlaps almost exactly with the spread of early Indo-European civilization archaeological markers (like chariots: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chariot_spread.png ). And the historical marker used for the Indo-European migration into India is the collapse of the Indus Valley civilization at a specific time. It just doesn't make sense for a subclade from Europe/Caucasus to somehow go *through* a thriving Indus Valley civilization and wind up on the other side in a spread uncannily similar to the spread of Indo-European civilization *after* the Indus Valley civilization collapsed. Occam's Razor and all that.

Fire Haired
09-20-2013, 03:22 AM
I'm not sure Indians would have been shocked by lighter colored people, and the post-Indus Valley Vedic-civilization is Indo-European, it was probably strongly influenced and started by those very light skinned people so why would they be shocked by their own appearance?

Also Brahmins have the third highest NE-Euro in Harappa Project after Afghans (second, probably due to the strong Central Asian link) and Jatts (highest in Haryana Jatts). The Jatts from Haryana have 17-20% NE-Euro but their Baloch/West Asian is slightly lower than surrounding populations (Punjabi Jatts have several percent more Baloch/West Asian but their NE-Euro is in the low teens). There are other groups who have high West Asian but very low NE-Euro as well. The Jatts have been in India for at least 2000 years.

The Caucasian admixture for Haryana Jatts is also lower than all the other Jatts from Punjab. Caucasian and NE-Euro seem to have reverse trends. The higher the Caucasian, the lower the NE-Euro, and vice-versa. Only in Afghans and Central Asians to the north is there a solid low to mid teens in NE-Euro with at least 20% Caucasian. But with the Haryana Jatts their average Caucasian is less than 10 but their NE-Euro more than double... combined with the fact the average NE-Euro in Iranians is only 4%, so their NE-Euro component is highly likely I think to have come from the north, not west. Migrations from the West probably drove the NE-Euro admixture down rather than up (so West Asian seems, like Caucasian, to have an inverse relationship with NE-Euro admixture in Indians).

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...t-has-resolved.

Some of them no doubt were. There were probably multiple waves from both the North and West. But J2b2 is not present anywhere in West/Southwest Asia, it's only in Balkans/Anatolia and India. That's more easily explained by a route through Central Asia rather than West Asia because in Central Asia you could expect a small group to not leave any trace behind, but in West Asia there should have been some J2b2 left behind.

I'm not sure Indians would have been shocked by lighter colored people, and the post-Indus Valley Vedic-civilization is Indo-European, it was probably strongly influenced and started by those very light skinned people so why would they be shocked by their own appearance?

Also Brahmins have the third highest NE-Euro in Harappa Project after Afghans (second, probably due to the strong Central Asian link) and Jatts (highest in Haryana Jatts). The Jatts from Haryana have 17-20% NE-Euro but their Baloch/West Asian is slightly lower than surrounding populations (Punjabi Jatts have several percent more Baloch/West Asian but their NE-Euro is in the low teens). There are other groups who have high West Asian but very low NE-Euro as well. The Jatts have been in India for at least 2000 years.

The Caucasian admixture for Haryana Jatts is also lower than all the other Jatts from Punjab. Caucasian and NE-Euro seem to have reverse trends. The higher the Caucasian, the lower the NE-Euro, and vice-versa. Only in Afghans and Central Asians to the north is there a solid low to mid teens in NE-Euro with at least 20% Caucasian. But with the Haryana Jatts their average Caucasian is less than 10 but their NE-Euro more than double... combined with the fact the average NE-Euro in Iranians is only 4%, so their NE-Euro component is highly likely I think to have come from the north, not west. Migrations from the West probably drove the NE-Euro admixture down rather than up (so West Asian seems, like Caucasian, to have an inverse relationship with NE-Euro admixture in Indians).

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved[/QUOTE

Germanic Italo Celtic is defined by Y DNa R1b1a2a1a L11. When they migrated acroos western Europe though they inter married with native I2a2 P214 and then Germanic speakers spread it to Scandinavia and Celts too the British isles which formed into their own subclade I2a2a1 M284. Migrations of east Germanic tribes Vandals and Goths most likely are the source of I1 M253 in eastern Europe. Their I1 M253 though is from pre Germanic Scandinavians and central Europeans. So Indo European people migrating pick up Y DNa fro native people then spread it later. I dont think of it as a Indo European haplogroup though. Y DNA I2a2 P214 or J2b M102 dont give an idea about Indo European origins only people they later inter married with.

I am sure if very light skinned, light haired and eyed people migrated to India and wrote the Rig Veda they would comment on huge skin, hair, and eye color differences. Just like how Native Americans called Europeans white men. The INdo Aryans would call themselves the white people and the natives in Indus valley the brown or black people it makes sense. They did not though so it makes sense that the Indo Iranian speakers who's ancestry originally probably came from northern Russia(Where did proto Indo iranian speakers ancestry orignate (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90089-Where-did-proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers-ancestry-orignate)). Had mixed and become mainly Iranian or Pakistani like when they arrived in India. That can also explain why they were able to write and be able to run a urban civilization not the traditional way of life. Also about the huge differnce in Indo Aryan speaking Indians aust dna results in globe13 compared to Dravidian speakers in the same area. Indo Aryans have huge amounts of west asian with little bit north Euro while Dravidian's have very little west Asian and no North Euro. The Indo Aryans may have killed of the natives pretty badley. I don't understand the whole history of how they conquered and if lower castes are suppose to be from the natives.

Fire Haired
09-20-2013, 03:26 AM
Yeah, that's the main hypothesis at Eupedia as well.

Some of them no doubt were. There were probably multiple waves from both the North and West. But J2b2 is not present anywhere in West/Southwest Asia, it's only in Balkans/Anatolia and India. That's more easily explained by a route through Central Asia rather than West Asia because in Central Asia you could expect a small group to not leave any trace behind, but in West Asia there should have been some J2b2 left behind.

I did not know it was subclade J2b2. I guess ur right they would not have picked it up while near the mid east. Probably since R1a1a1 M417 originated around Russia and Ukraine they probably got it while in eastern Europe before forming into Indo Iranian branch. Or there could be another explanation that has nothing to do with spread of Indo Iranian languages.

parasar
09-20-2013, 04:07 AM
There is no need for R2 and J2b2 to be associated with indo european spread .It is probably older that that .Even some clades of R1a like L657 could predate indo european arrival . I think most probable canditates for indo european spread could be R1a-Z2123 ,G-P15 along with some J2a clades and R2-L295- .

J2b2 I'm not that sure about, but R2 and especially R1a1 shows a clear IE association in eastern India. In eastern India we have the meeting place of four major languages families - Dravidian (Paroja, Oraon etc), various Tibeto-Burman speaking tribes, Austrics (Santhal, Munda, etc.), and the Indic-IE (Bhojpuri, Maithili, Magahi, etc). R1a1 is essentially limited to the last group. Eg. from Sahoo, IE Thakur, Khatri, Rajput, Brahman, Bhumihar have ~70% R1a1 (likely for the most part L657) and the most of their balance is R2. In very close proximity the Dravidian, AA and TB tribes collectively show ~2% R1a1 (overall 1/85 AA, 1/51 TB in Sahoo data). http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2006/01/11/0507714103.DC1/07714Table_3.pdf

parasar
09-20-2013, 04:25 AM
...

The Caucasian admixture for Haryana Jatts is also lower than all the other Jatts from Punjab. Caucasian and NE-Euro seem to have reverse trends. The higher the Caucasian, the lower the NE-Euro, and vice-versa. Only in Afghans and Central Asians to the north is there a solid low to mid teens in NE-Euro with at least 20% Caucasian. But with the Haryana Jatts their average Caucasian is less than 10 but their NE-Euro more than double... combined with the fact the average NE-Euro in Iranians is only 4%, so their NE-Euro component is highly likely I think to have come from the north, not west. Migrations from the West probably drove the NE-Euro admixture down rather than up (so West Asian seems, like Caucasian, to have an inverse relationship with NE-Euro admixture in Indians).

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved

Please keep in mind that these are not necessarily real ancestral components. For example the Baloch component, named for the Baloch among whom it peaks, may of Dravidian origin even if minimal in the latter if its allele diversity is higher in Dravidians than in the Baloch.
That is why Zack notes in every iteration:

Do note that the admixture components do not necessarily represent real ancestral populations. Also, the names I have chosen for the components should be thought of as mnemonics to ease discussion. I chose them based on which populations in my data these components peaked in. They do not tell anything directly about ancestral populations. The best way to look at these admixture results is by comparing individuals and populations.

Dr_McNinja
09-20-2013, 10:38 AM
I am sure if very light skinned, light haired and eyed people migrated to India and wrote the Rig Veda they would comment on huge skin, hair, and eye color differences. Well the Vedas were written in Haryana, and the Jatts of Haryana have almost 20% NE-Euro admixture today in the 21st century so imagine what they were like thousands of years ago when Vedic civilization was starting. Fact is, they were probably light skinned "Aryans" and they didn't write about the physical differences. Why is because they didn't start these things until at least a thousand years of already having lived and mixed in India a little. So they had more than a thousand years to adjust to the local people and climate. When they first appeared, they didn't write anything, so whatever their impressions, they are lost to time.

Dr_McNinja
09-20-2013, 10:41 AM
Please keep in mind that these are not necessarily real ancestral components. For example the Baloch component, named for the Baloch among whom it peaks, may of Dravidian origin even if minimal in the latter if its allele diversity is higher in Dravidians than in the Baloch.
That is why Zack notes in every iteration:Whatever the Baloch component, it is high throughout West Asia... higher than in South India (Utahn-White from hapmap have 10% Baloch!). Which is why I doubt it's originally of Dravidian origin. If it is, it's so far long ago that it doesn't have any relation to the Dravidian in South India anymore. The same way Caucasian and Northern Europe are now two different things even though both groups originated probably in the same region. That just doesn't matter anymore.

Edit: But considering how high it is, it's unlikely an indigenous/aboriginal admixture component would be so high (compare to Siberian, Beringian, Amerindian, Papuan, which are as old as Baloch would have to be if it's ancestral Dravidian, even before Dravidian got to South India). It likely represents some kind of Indo-Iranian admixture because it's highest among Indo-Iranians. And the reason it's at pretty high numbers in Europeans is because of an ancestral link (they hail at some point in time from Proto-Indo-European culture). It is to Europeans what NE-Euro is to Indians (except without the whole Indo-Aryan civilization/culture/religion/caste thing going on).

alan
09-20-2013, 12:34 PM
The entire current Ukraine steppe area Slavic population settled there only 2 or 3 centuries ago. Before that it was occupied by the Tatars. Before them there was an incredible sequence of both IE and non-IE, usually nomadic, peoples who swept through the area from 800BC to 1700AD. That is without even considering the period before that. So, the Ukraine steppes population of today probably only has a very small remnant of whoever was there in the Neolithic or Bronze Age. Its probably the most discontinuous area population wise in Europe and the most useless in terms of modern population studies.

Regarding L23 in the north. It is known at low levels and has a decent showing in the Urals. It is also common right up to the steppe borders at Moldova in SE Europe and is also represented at appreciable levels in the north Caucasus. That is the kind of pattern that would make sense for a people formerly on the western steppes who after all the waves of later invaders through that area have left remnants all around it edges in the Caucasus, Urals and east Carpathians.

I am not saying its certain but its certainly possible that L23 was once much better represented in the western steppes than it is today. The current Slavic population in the area are mainly descended from migrants of the last 3 centuries from the north and west beyond the steppes. The area was wiped nearly clean of its Tatar occupants starting under the Tsars and completed by systematic industrial scale deportation eastwards into eastern areas of the old USSR by Stalin. So, I am afraid modern population studies are basically useless in the Ukraine steppe area, very unfortunate given that its part of the proposed PIE homeland.


Alan the fact is that Two 4,600ybp Y DNa samples from Corded ware both R1a1. Also Balto Slavs have R1a1a1b1 Z283 brother to Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93. Corded ware culture partly because of those samples defintley was proto Balto SLavic now we have DNA we don't just go off of archaeology. Early Indo Iranians like tarim mummies also come up R1a1 not a surprise and those are the cultures Kurgen hypothesis suspected. The KUrgen hypthesis deifntley explains the basic's of the spread f Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages out of Russia and Ukraine Bug Dniester and Yamna culture's.

Maykop and 6,000 year old Kurgen in the Caucus is deifntley evidence of Indo Europeans in that area as early as in Russia and Ukraine and could be the source of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 fathers. I don't by in with the Uralic stuff either. Y DNa N1c1 and Kunda culture in my opinon seem to be the source of Uralic languages in Europe. N1c1c and Kunda deifntley are connected. and i think Uralic is much older than Indo European possibly 10,000 years old and definley was started and almost always existed in hunter gathers. Kunda existed as long as 8,000 years ago so if it is connected Uralic languages must be very old.

Since Y DNa R1a1a1 M417 and samples from suspected early Balto Slavic and indo Iranian cultures totally makes me think the Kurgen theory was on to something. I do think ultimately Corded ware descended from Yamna culture. How old are the Maykop Kurgens in Iran it could explain why R1b1a2a L23 is 20-30% in Anatolia, Iraq, Caucus, and northwest Iran maybe there were pre historic Indo Europeans that were whipped out then later Indo Iranians came. Maykop is deifntley related to steppe Kurgen cultures and they defintley traded with people in the steppes. I don't think Yamna is proto Indo European but is early Indo European. I am starting to think maybe Indo European languages began around the north mid east maybe 8,000 years ago then spread to the steppes and really took off and spread from there.

Since proto Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 Corded ware culture started about 5,00ybp same with migrations out of the steppes into central Asia which brought Indo Iranian languages and R1a1a1b2 Z93. also R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts started to spread at the earliest about 5,000ybp. Do u think this could mean that there was sometype of new technology spreading or something else that caused all of these HUGE migrations to happen around the same time. I guess Germanic Italo Celts ancestral languages would have had to first went through eastern Europe. FTDNA says that R1b1a2a L23 moved to the Balkans were is somewhat popular 7,000-8,000ybp(click here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=results)). That could mean that later it went to western Europe developing into R1b1a2a1a L11 bu then whata bout R1b1a2a1 L51 which is in between. Is it pretty much only Europan or does it also have a mid eastern origin.

This also could mean that Indo European languages are from the Neolithic mid east. Because possibly if R1b1a2a L23 came to the Balkans in the Neolithic then later spread Germanic Italo celtic languages. Maybe Thracian-Dacian, Greek, and Iylliran were from those Neolithic R1b1a2a L23 people. I guess Greek spread out of that area later, That is a stretch but i am just thinking about it.

What sources do u have to say R1b1a2a L23 is popular north of Caucus in Russia.

alan
09-20-2013, 12:51 PM
I should also have mentioned that the last corded ware ancient DNA found, I believe an early one from closer to its source, had no R1a. I am not denying the likelihood that R1a came from the steppes. I am just saying that corded ware is a quite distinct culture under the influence of steppe cultures. Its not literally a steppe derived culture. R1a could well be down to a steppe input but we do not yet know if it was a major or minor input and it clearly is more complex than that. The ancient DNA has already shown this. So far its two sites, one late one with R1a and the other earlier more eastern one without. It will take a few more sites before a pattern will emerge in terms of farmer and non-farmer input into corded ware on both the male and female sides. If it turns out that most of the women are local and only a minority of the men are R1a then the overall steppe autosomal impact in corded ware may be minority. There is actually not a huge amount of R1a in many of the corded ware areas today that were not subsequently part of the Slavic expansion. That could turn out to be because R1a was not dominant in Corded Ware rather than the idea of killer R1b beaker folk driving them out to the margins. Its just impossible to know from two sites. Once a few more separate sites (not individuals because cemeteries tend to be family ones) are tested a pattern may emerge.

newtoboard
09-20-2013, 12:56 PM
The Ukranian forest steppe has been Slavic for more than 1000 years. Who do you think "Scythian farmers" were?

parasar
09-20-2013, 02:27 PM
Whatever the Baloch component, it is high throughout West Asia... higher than in South India (Utahn-White from hapmap have 10% Baloch!). Which is why I doubt it's originally of Dravidian origin. If it is, it's so far long ago that it doesn't have any relation to the Dravidian in South India anymore. The same way Caucasian and Northern Europe are now two different things even though both groups originated probably in the same region. That just doesn't matter anymore.

Edit: But considering how high it is, it's unlikely an indigenous/aboriginal admixture component would be so high (compare to Siberian, Beringian, Amerindian, Papuan, which are as old as Baloch would have to be if it's ancestral Dravidian, even before Dravidian got to South India). It likely represents some kind of Indo-Iranian admixture because it's highest among Indo-Iranians. And the reason it's at pretty high numbers in Europeans is because of an ancestral link (they hail at some point in time from Proto-Indo-European culture). It is to Europeans what NE-Euro is to Indians (except without the whole Indo-Aryan civilization/culture/religion/caste thing going on).

As I had mentioned for establishing source, ie, determining true ancestry, allele diversities will need to be verified. Till then we can look to these components only for comparisons.
This Baloch component is essentially Metspalu's k5. k5 is over 12500 years old in South Asia and expanded more in the northwest part of South Asia. Whether it was indigenous to South Asia or from western Asia or Europe we do not know as they all show about equal and very high allele diversities. Actually we may never know since as Metspalu explains such old components sometimes show higher diversity in the sink region.

On the other hand the main (current, k4) European component and main (current, k3) West Asian component are very young compared to the main (current, k6) South Asian component. Both the European and West Asian components are also present in South Asia and these may have something to do with migrations into the subcontinent.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6J6Gsas4uIs/TuELU3Gf4ZI/AAAAAAAAEWQ/CymvlzkX6hQ/s1600/PIIS0002929711004885.gr2_lrg.hi.jpg

Dr_McNinja
09-20-2013, 06:56 PM
As I had mentioned for establishing source, ie, determining true ancestry, allele diversities will need to be verified. Till then we can look to these components only for comparisons.
This Baloch component is essentially Metspalu's k5. k5 is over 12500 years old in South Asia and expanded more in the northwest part of South Asia. Whether it was indigenous to South Asia or from western Asia or Europe we do not know as they all show about equal and very high allele diversities. Actually we may never know since as Metspalu explains such old components sometimes show higher diversity in the sink region.

On the other hand the main (current, k4) European component and main (current, k3) West Asian component are very young compared to the main (current, k6) South Asian component. Both the European and West Asian components are also present in South Asia and these may have something to do with migrations into the subcontinent.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6J6Gsas4uIs/TuELU3Gf4ZI/AAAAAAAAEWQ/CymvlzkX6hQ/s1600/PIIS0002929711004885.gr2_lrg.hi.jpgThat k5 looks a lot bigger than the Baloch component in Harappa. Armenians should have 17% Baloch, 57% Caucasian but in that figure, it's all off. They have more Baloch than anything else. I don't think Baloch fully corresponds to k5. Looks like the Caucasian component is mixed in with k5?

Fire Haired
09-20-2013, 08:50 PM
The entire current Ukraine steppe area Slavic population settled there only 2 or 3 centuries ago. Before that it was occupied by the Tatars. Before them there was an incredible sequence of both IE and non-IE, usually nomadic, peoples who swept through the area from 800BC to 1700AD. That is without even considering the period before that. So, the Ukraine steppes population of today probably only has a very small remnant of whoever was there in the Neolithic or Bronze Age. Its probably the most discontinuous area population wise in Europe and the most useless in terms of modern population studies.

Regarding L23 in the north. It is known at low levels and has a decent showing in the Urals. It is also common right up to the steppe borders at Moldova in SE Europe and is also represented at appreciable levels in the north Caucasus. That is the kind of pattern that would make sense for a people formerly on the western steppes who after all the waves of later invaders through that area have left remnants all around it edges in the Caucasus, Urals and east Carpathians.

I am not saying its certain but its certainly possible that L23 was once much better represented in the western steppes than it is today. The current Slavic population in the area are mainly descended from migrants of the last 3 centuries from the north and west beyond the steppes. The area was wiped nearly clean of its Tatar occupants starting under the Tsars and completed by systematic industrial scale deportation eastwards into eastern areas of the old USSR by Stalin. So, I am afraid modern population studies are basically useless in the Ukraine steppe area, very unfortunate given that its part of the proposed PIE homeland.

You cant say for sure modern Ukrainians mainly descend from slavs who came in the last 3 centuries. The tatars who lived in Ukrainian probably were very different genetically than the ones in eastern Russia today. I don't think u can say R1b1a2a L23 would be very popular there if it wasn't for the Slavs. Everything right now points to the spread of R1a1a1 M417 and Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages out of Bug Dniester and Yamna cultures in Russia and Ukraine area which totally fits the Kurgen hypothesis and ancient Y DNA also backs it up.

Fire Haired
09-20-2013, 08:50 PM
The Ukranian forest steppe has been Slavic for more than 1000 years. Who do you think "Scythian farmers" were?

Sycthians were not Slavic they spoke a Indo Iranian language look it up.

parasar
09-20-2013, 11:00 PM
don't think Baloch fully corresponds to k5. Looks like the Caucasian component is mixed in with k5?

I agree.
At this k level Baloch is not differentiated from Caucasus.

Dr_McNinja
09-21-2013, 09:42 AM
Are there any admixture calculators or studies which used Tatar as a component? Is that even possible anymore?

alan
09-21-2013, 05:44 PM
Well we can be pretty sure that the true steppe area of the Ukraine has been cleared out of what was once a Tatar population. Its actually well documented with surveys showing the rate it took place at. Stalin finished the job of clearing the Tatars in what was something just short of genocide by tranporting them to the east. Only the tiniest percentage of Tatars live there today and most of them returned only recently. So its very much unsafe to assume anything based on the present population. Having said, that the Slavs who did settle were not from terribly far away but they did not live on the true steppes where a sequence of nomads lived. So that leaves the y dna profile of the western steppes c. 4000BC pretty well impossible to infer. What I would note is that L23 has a good enough showing right up to the western borders of the Ukraine in Moldova as well as the Caucasus and NW Iran.

If the approximate age of M269 c. 4000BC and L23 c. 3500BC is a timeframe when there are large amounts of evidence for migration from the steppes in SE Europe where L23 is fairly strong. However, there is zero evidence for migration from Anatolia into SE Europe at this time. It also has to be recalled that M269 and the very eastern M73 are by far the closest siblings to each other, being linked by P297. So, a radically different position or environment are not to be expect. It is also basically impossible to place the origin of any R1b clades in much of Anatolia given that it was a very early centre of farming but R1b did not expand there much until L23 c. 3500BC many millenia later. So, it seems impossible to place L23 or its P297 ancestor in that area. A similar arguement applies to the Balkans. M269 is largely balkans today. It seems to me that the only way of squaring all this evidence if placing M269 and its ancestor on the steppes or very closeby in the north Caucasus-west caspian kind of area.




You cant say for sure modern Ukrainians mainly descend from slavs who came in the last 3 centuries. The tatars who lived in Ukrainian probably were very different genetically than the ones in eastern Russia today. I don't think u can say R1b1a2a L23 would be very popular there if it wasn't for the Slavs. Everything right now points to the spread of R1a1a1 M417 and Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages out of Bug Dniester and Yamna cultures in Russia and Ukraine area which totally fits the Kurgen hypothesis and ancient Y DNA also backs it up.

alan
09-21-2013, 08:59 PM
Basically like it or not we have to accept that the western steppes inconveniently is probably the least likely place in Europe to preserve the yDNA patterns of ancient times so we have to think deeper than normal.

One possibility worth considering is that the original pattern was that R1b was present in the true steppe of Ukraine with R1a more in the forest steppe just north and east. Certainly it later seemed that likely R1a rich cultures like corded ware, Middle Dnieper, Fatyanovo, Abashevo, sintasha etc which Anthony sees a chain of cultures spinning off possibly and associated with Baltic Slavic, Indo-Iranian etc seemed more adapted to a forest steppe environment rather than a true steppe one. I think the concept of adaption to environments is worth considering. We do not as yet really know what yDNA the steppe groups like Suvorovo, Yamnaya etc who headed west carried. Everything we think we know is by assumptions working back from later cultures in different places. We cant be sure the Tarim mummies really are connected to the Afanasievo culture as their is a difference in time and space between the two.

Fire Haired
09-22-2013, 01:24 AM
Basically like it or not we have to accept that the western steppes inconveniently is probably the least likely place in Europe to preserve the yDNA patterns of ancient times so we have to think deeper than normal.

One possibility worth considering is that the original pattern was that R1b was present in the true steppe of Ukraine with R1a more in the forest steppe just north and east. Certainly it later seemed that likely R1a rich cultures like corded ware, Middle Dnieper, Fatyanovo, Abashevo, sintasha etc which Anthony sees a chain of cultures spinning off possibly and associated with Baltic Slavic, Indo-Iranian etc seemed more adapted to a forest steppe environment rather than a true steppe one. I think the concept of adaption to environments is worth considering. We do not as yet really know what yDNA the steppe groups like Suvorovo, Yamnaya etc who headed west carried. Everything we think we know is by assumptions working back from later cultures in different places. We cant be sure the Tarim mummies really are connected to the Afanasievo culture as their is a difference in time and space between the two.
I agree y DNA in the steppe I guess Russia and Ukriane area has changed a lot over and over again since probably 7,000ybp. Because look at their descendants Indo Iranian cultures in asia I think Taim mummies can be included almost all had R1a1 out of 17 samples only one didn't and plus there are R1a1 samples in Iron age Mongols obviously inter marriage the same one also had Caucasian U2e and I remember hearing as a little kid they found a white looking person like with Caucasian skull shape and he was in Mongolia I wonder if this is his Y DNA and mtDNA. Then the Corded ware culture R1a1 but there were also two other samples with G? and I or J?. But from the Y DNa we know they spread both proto Balto Slavic and Indo Iranians would have been vast majority R1a1a1 M417 same with R1b1a2a1a L11 and proto Germanic, Italic, Celts. But look at the steppes today obviously a lot has changed. I am sue the Slavic stuff changed things. also Indo Iranian Scythians and others dominated those areas in the Iron age did they make back migrations from asia. So we don't really know what y DNa percentages in the steppes were 6,000bc or whatever ur totally right. So maybe Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 fathers did come straight from the steppe's we cant tell by modern steppes. But we need more hard evidence than just we don't know.

parasar
09-22-2013, 04:34 AM
... plus there are R1a1 samples in Iron age Mongols obviously inter marriage the same one also had Caucasian U2e ...

Likely a Buddhist missionary from India. Following Asoka there are Indian missionaries mentioned all over central, inner, south east and east asia.

alan
09-22-2013, 12:56 PM
One thing I have always thought in terms of 16 R1a men at Tarim is that we should not exaggerate the significance. It is just one site and they could be and probably are fairly close relatives given the patrilinear clans of the period. What is really needed is 16 different cemeteries, not individuals within the same family cemetery. If all the individuals come from the same cemetery then 16 results is a lot more of a big deal than it sounds. In fact I think if enough big prehistoric cemeteries were successfully ydna tested, it would soon be clear that they tends to be cemeteries of closely related people on the male side.


I agree y DNA in the steppe I guess Russia and Ukriane area has changed a lot over and over again since probably 7,000ybp. Because look at their descendants Indo Iranian cultures in asia I think Taim mummies can be included almost all had R1a1 out of 17 samples only one didn't and plus there are R1a1 samples in Iron age Mongols obviously inter marriage the same one also had Caucasian U2e and I remember hearing as a little kid they found a white looking person like with Caucasian skull shape and he was in Mongolia I wonder if this is his Y DNA and mtDNA. Then the Corded ware culture R1a1 but there were also two other samples with G? and I or J?. But from the Y DNa we know they spread both proto Balto Slavic and Indo Iranians would have been vast majority R1a1a1 M417 same with R1b1a2a1a L11 and proto Germanic, Italic, Celts. But look at the steppes today obviously a lot has changed. I am sue the Slavic stuff changed things. also Indo Iranian Scythians and others dominated those areas in the Iron age did they make back migrations from asia. So we don't really know what y DNa percentages in the steppes were 6,000bc or whatever ur totally right. So maybe Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 fathers did come straight from the steppe's we cant tell by modern steppes. But we need more hard evidence than just we don't know.

Fire Haired
09-22-2013, 02:01 PM
One thing I have always thought in terms of 16 R1a men at Tarim is that we should not exaggerate the significance. It is just one site and they could be and probably are fairly close relatives given the patrilinear clans of the period. What is really needed is 16 different cemeteries, not individuals within the same family cemetery. If all the individuals come from the same cemetery then 16 results is a lot more of a big deal than it sounds. In fact I think if enough big prehistoric cemeteries were successfully ydna tested, it would soon be clear that they tends to be cemeteries of closely related people on the male side.

There were 7 R1a1 from tarim mummies about 4,000 years old. other 9 were from random burails from later indo Iranians. also the only y dna it seems they spred for ure is r1a1a1b2 z92 I guess maybe j2b but uit shows r1a1a1b z93 was dominate.

parasar
09-22-2013, 02:11 PM
One thing I have always thought in terms of 16 R1a men at Tarim is that we should not exaggerate the significance. It is just one site and they could be and probably are fairly close relatives given the patrilinear clans of the period. What is really needed is 16 different cemeteries, not individuals within the same family cemetery. If all the individuals come from the same cemetery then 16 results is a lot more of a big deal than it sounds. In fact I think if enough big prehistoric cemeteries were successfully ydna tested, it would soon be clear that they tends to be cemeteries of closely related people on the male side.



Fifteen individuals' AMG amplicons were obtained from the 20 Xiaohe individuals (whose mtDNA was successfully amplified), among which seven individuals were identified as male and eight as female. The Y chromosome haplogroup of the seven males were all assigned to haplogroup R1a1a http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/figures/1741-7007-8-15-3.jpg



First developed on modern samples, the assay was optimized for the analysis of 11 ancient DNA (aDNA) samples from the Krasnoyarsk region (southern Siberia) that were dated from 5,500–1,800 years before present (YBP). SNP typing was successful for most of them, which were all assigned to Y-haplogroup R1a1 except one.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/KeyserDNASiberianKurgan2009Fig1.gif


The DNA analyses revealed that one subject was an ancient male skeleton with maternal U2e1 and paternal R1a1 haplogroups. This
is the first genetic evidence that a male of distinctive Indo-European lineages (R1a1) was present in the Xiongnu of Mongolia ... Calculation by DNAVIEW shows that the autosomal profile of MNX3 West Eurasian male is 14 times more probable from a Brahmin Indian than from a modern Caucasian (Table 6).
http://volgagermanbrit.us/documents/Kim_et_al.pdf

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Reference_Files/KijeongKim2010%C2%AD_2000-Year-OldEliteXiongnuFig1.gif

So as you can see the R1a1 samples are quite spread apart in space and time.

Fire Haired
09-22-2013, 05:18 PM
Parsar those results are not a surprise they are Indo Iranians. R1a1a secifcalley Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93 is very popular in those areas of Siberia and all over central asia today. check this link it shows how popular it is today its the main haplogroup of Atlians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_Central_and_North_Asian_populat ions

Also look at ancient Eurasian DNA it shows a lot of Indo Iranian R1a1 samples in asia and some from Scythian ones from eastern Europe. What I saw is that the mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color of Indo Iranians did not change for if the samples were from 1,800bc or 400ad if they were in Europe or Siberia this shows that at least some stayed very very very very very very unmixed. But the Tarim mummies had almost all Mongliold mtDNA and most had C4 probably inter married with a tribe that had a lot of common maternal ancestry. And u can look in tarim basin today and see very very mixed people east Asian, European(Indo Iranian), and mid eastern people have been mixing there for almost 5,000 years.

alan
09-23-2013, 10:13 PM
I really meant more in terms of the Tarim mummies. I am not too interested in the later Iranian ones or even later groups who may have absorbed other groups. Its the other ones and especially those of an earlier period where there are far too few individual cemeteries tested to conclude. I suspect a cemeteries will tend to be a single male lineage of probably not too distant shared male ancestor so testing 2 or 30 for a haplogroup in any single cemetery will not tell us any more. Its the number of individual cemeteries that matter more than the number of individuals per se. There is still as far as I am aware not testing of anyone from the steppes pre-3000BC. If you read Gregoriev, even if ignoring his main theory, it does raise a lot of questions about the complexity of input into the steppe after that period so it cannot be assumed what is found in later steppe grave is representative of earlier steppe cultures. He really challenges the idea of them being simple variants on ancestral cultures in the same area. I really hope they test earlier remains soon. I would love to see y DNA from Sredny Stog variants, Dnieper-Donets, Bug-Dniester and all sorts of groups on the steppes in this earlier period. I am fed up with trying to infer backwards from later samples.


http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/figures/1741-7007-8-15-3.jpg




http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/KeyserDNASiberianKurgan2009Fig1.gif


http://volgagermanbrit.us/documents/Kim_et_al.pdf

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Reference_Files/KijeongKim2010%C2%AD_2000-Year-OldEliteXiongnuFig1.gif

So as you can see the R1a1 samples are quite spread apart in space and time.

Fire Haired
09-23-2013, 10:39 PM
I totally agree with ur whole idea it is how many cemetarires and i would ahd their age should be pretty far apart and their area or else they could be a close tribe were everyone decends from the same father. But with Indo Iranians i have catulley looked at their mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color a lot. I see total continunty with Sycthainds in Rostov Russia 800bc-100ad and Andronovo people in central Siberia 1,400-1,800bc and same with all other Indo Iranian remains across Asia in between. They were a distinct ethnic group that's what i believe. Here is a thread i made about trying to figure out the origin of proto Indo Iranian speakers click here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?90089-Where-did-proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers-ancestry-orignate) i made it over a month ago so some of my idea;s maybe have changed. I based it on their hair color and eye color and compared it to people alive today but so much hads changed in mainly the steppes with Turk and like u said slavs invading and the indo Iranians resettled it what were the people like there before. So i guess looking at modern people in certain areas wont help that much. Something unque is they had vast majority T subclade was T1 opposite of Neolithic-iron age European samples were seriously like 99% had T2 not T1 and athe T1 in total Indo Iranian samples was 10.3% i am not sure if all T was given a subclade anyways. and the T1 kept popping up no matter were the sample was found and what year so i think that can be sued to figure out their origin but like i sad before a lot has changed so maybe not.

parasar
09-24-2013, 03:30 PM
Well the Vedas were written in Haryana, and the Jatts of Haryana have almost 20% NE-Euro admixture today in the 21st century so imagine what they were like thousands of years ago when Vedic civilization was starting. Fact is, they were probably light skinned "Aryans" and they didn't write about the physical differences. Why is because they didn't start these things until at least a thousand years of already having lived and mixed in India a little. So they had more than a thousand years to adjust to the local people and climate. When they first appeared, they didn't write anything, so whatever their impressions, they are lost to time.

The Vedas could have been compiled anywhere from Afghanistan to Bihar - the Vedic geographic horizon. I favor the Afghanistan region as the place where the bulk of the Rg Veda was compiled since even small streams from that region are mentioned, while from Bihar only the major rivers are mentioned (Ganga, Sarayu).

As far as Haryana is concerned, it was the ancient land of the Kurus (Kuru-kshetra) who for some reason did not like the people of the five rivers (panch nad, panj-ab) much, as well as many others.
At the time of the Bharata war, the Punjab followed the practice of aliya-santana - descent through the female line - and females were a very strong part of society. This aspect still seen in parts of the west coastal and southern India today, but no longer in the Punjab.

References:
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/257244/aliyasantana-accent-women.html

"'those five rivers flow, viz., the Satadru, the Vipasa, the Iravati, the Candrabhaga, and the Vitasa and which have the Sindhu for their sixth, there in those regions removed from the Himavat, are the countries called by the name of the Arattas ... that the sisters' sons of the Arattas, and not their own sons, become their heirs ... race that resides in the country of the five rivers ..." http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08044.htm

"suggest men moved in with their brides, even though in South Asia women traditionally move to their husband's homes. Confirmation of these early results, says lead author Mark Kenoyer of the University of Wisconsin–Madison, would point to a "system where women were powerful." The new study is pioneering, says Indus expert James Shaffer of Case Western Reserve University, and offers "one of the few real insights we have" into the structure of Harappan society. If the study is correct, Harappa's unusual gender roles could mean that social structure in the Indus region was radically different from that of other ancient cultures, Shaffer says." http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130425-indus-civilization-discoveries-harappa-archaeology-science/

Fire Haired
09-24-2013, 10:14 PM
The people who wrote the Vedic would have been dark skinned in my opinon no doubt. I know a half irish and half indian family black skinned indian and the kids of course are not black skinned they are brownish to light brown and defintley not white. The proto Indo Iranian speakers sure were white that is what ancient remains and other things tell us but they woukld have already mixed culturally and by blood with people around Pakistan and Afghanistan before even invading India and there would not be a big physical difference and I bet they would mention it in the rig veda if there was. Like I said before early Indo Iranian speaker were tribal and nomads like Sycthians who decend from them. They were not able to write so they learned how to write from brown skinned people in that area to write the Rig Veda ori guess maybe they could have created their own writing system. They were not Urban like Indus civilization if u look at Indus valley civ right when the Indo Iranians conquered it was so diff than for example Sycthains or Andronovo culture obvisouly tons of influence by people already in that area. If they arrived as white they would have quickly blended in. And I would think they would use that as an identifty because they were the only white people there like how native americans called European colonist white people.

Dr_McNinja
09-25-2013, 06:20 PM
The people who wrote the Vedic would have been dark skinned in my opinon no doubt. I know a half irish and half indian family black skinned indian and the kids of course are not black skinned they are brownish to light brown and defintley not white. The proto Indo Iranian speakers sure were white that is what ancient remains and other things tell us but they woukld have already mixed culturally and by blood with people around Pakistan and Afghanistan before even invading India and there would not be a big physical difference and I bet they would mention it in the rig veda if there was. Like I said before early Indo Iranian speaker were tribal and nomads like Sycthians who decend from them. They were not able to write so they learned how to write from brown skinned people in that area to write the Rig Veda ori guess maybe they could have created their own writing system. They were not Urban like Indus civilization if u look at Indus valley civ right when the Indo Iranians conquered it was so diff than for example Sycthains or Andronovo culture obvisouly tons of influence by people already in that area. If they arrived as white they would have quickly blended in. And I would think they would use that as an identifty because they were the only white people there like how native americans called European colonist white people.


But if the Indo iranians came to India 100% INdo Iranian like Scythian's and Andronovo people. Then they would have been white with mainly light hair and eyes with over 1% red hair like their remains. But does the Rig Veda every mention that they were shocked by the dark skin or physcal differnce of the people in India which u should except NO. So it makes sense they were most like Iranians and Pakistni when they arrived or really Indians.

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say. The Indo-Europeans came into Pakistan/Afghanistan, became dark skinned and wrote the Vedas there? Pakistan is a part of the Indian subcontinent, it qualifies as ancient India in anyone's book and the people of Afghanistan/Pakistan have always been of mixed complexion, not quite as dark skinned as South Indian, which I'm not sure if that's what you're trying to imply. You can still find plenty of very light hair/eye colored people in Northern/Northwestern Pakistan. So by the time the Indo-Europeans got to India, including what is now called Pakistan, quite a few of them would most certainly have still been pretty "white" looking.

The Vedas were written by Indo-Europeans in an Indo-European language a while after they had been in India, so I'm not sure why you seem to be trying to say it would be written from a Dravidian point of view expressing shock at the appearance of light skinned people. That doesn't make any sense.


It is one of the oldest extant texts in any Indo-European language. Philological and linguistic evidence indicate that the Rigveda was composed in the north-western region of the Indian subcontinent, roughly between 1700–1100 BC[5] (the early Vedic period). There are strong linguistic and cultural similarities with the early Iranian Avesta, deriving from the Proto-Indo-Iranian times, often associated with the early Andronovo and Sintashta-Petrovka cultures of c. 2200 – 1600 BC.Afghanistan is probably unlikely but it's all just theory at this point.

ADW_1981
09-25-2013, 06:31 PM
There were 7 R1a1 from tarim mummies about 4,000 years old. other 9 were from random burails from later indo Iranians. also the only y dna it seems they spred for ure is r1a1a1b2 z92 I guess maybe j2b but uit shows r1a1a1b z93 was dominate.

That's all well and good but at the end of the day R1b1a1 and other varieties of M343 have been found in China in studies as recent as this year. These varieties are not common in western Europe, if found at all. Therefore we can only assume R1b was alive and well in Central Asia quite some time ago. Some of the southern Chinese regions have higher rates of R1a1 but this could be from South Asian influence. I recall the silk road areas of China had equal levels of R1a1 and R1b - all data from a 2013 study on living men in China. This data can be retrieved from one of Dienekes' blog posts a few months back. I have heard the R1a1 "dominated" Tarim argument before, and it simply does not hold with the modern data we have. There is literally no explanation for older R1b varieties arriving in these obscure locations.

Fire Haired
09-25-2013, 10:08 PM
ADW the R1a1a in China and really all of asia is under Indo Iranian branch R1a1a1b1 Z93 India is just one of the places it spread to China most likely got it from Tarim mummy people other Indo European tribes in asia like Tocherians. The R1b1a M73 has been suspected by some that it was also spread with R1a1a1b1 Z93 but it could have been spread earlier.

Fire Haired
09-25-2013, 10:14 PM
DR M I am not saying it was written in a Draviden point I view if the people who wrote were very white and the only in that area. They would probably define themselves as the white people which the Rig vedia does not. I think they would have already had mixed and looked no different than everyone else around them. I know that very fair people exist in Pakistan like in ethnic groups Kalash and Pashtun in Afghanistan that deifntley is from Indo Iranians but it is very rare and does not mean they arrived looking like that.

parasar
09-26-2013, 12:46 AM
That's all well and good but at the end of the day R1b1a1 and other varieties of M343 have been found in China in studies as recent as this year. These varieties are not common in western Europe, if found at all. Therefore we can only assume R1b was alive and well in Central Asia quite some time ago. Some of the southern Chinese regions have higher rates of R1a1 but this could be from South Asian influence. I recall the silk road areas of China had equal levels of R1a1 and R1b - all data from a 2013 study on living men in China. This data can be retrieved from one of Dienekes' blog posts a few months back. I have heard the R1a1 "dominated" Tarim argument before, and it simply does not hold with the modern data we have. There is literally no explanation for older R1b varieties arriving in these obscure locations.

In a way it does conform with the modern data we have. M73 is completely missing in South Asia except in relatively recent Turkic entrants. I think M73 came to Central Asia after the Turks came into contact with Europeans/Anatolians.

newtoboard
09-26-2013, 12:40 PM
That's all well and good but at the end of the day R1b1a1 and other varieties of M343 have been found in China in studies as recent as this year. These varieties are not common in western Europe, if found at all. Therefore we can only assume R1b was alive and well in Central Asia quite some time ago. Some of the southern Chinese regions have higher rates of R1a1 but this could be from South Asian influence. I recall the silk road areas of China had equal levels of R1a1 and R1b - all data from a 2013 study on living men in China. This data can be retrieved from one of Dienekes' blog posts a few months back. I have heard the R1a1 "dominated" Tarim argument before, and it simply does not hold with the modern data we have. There is literally no explanation for older R1b varieties arriving in these obscure locations.

And the R1b could be a Turkic influence.

Mikewww
09-26-2013, 02:40 PM
And the R1b could be a Turkic influence.
Does this mean you agree with Anatole Klyosov's perspective that R1b originated in some kind of ancient Turkic culture in Central Asia?

newtoboard
09-26-2013, 03:04 PM
Does this mean you agree with Anatole Klyosov's perspective that R1b originated in some kind of ancient Turkic culture in Central Asia?

No of course not. R1b originated in West Asia. I was just arguing against his R1b centric view that the R1a in the Tarim is a South Asian influence when it is more likely R1b in the Tarim is a Turkic and Silk Road influence.

Mikewww
09-26-2013, 04:15 PM
No of course not. R1b originated in West Asia. I was just arguing against his R1b centric view that the R1a in the Tarim is a South Asian influence when it is more likely R1b in the Tarim is a Turkic and Silk Road influence.

Why do you think that R1b is more likely of Turkic and Silk Road influence? I don't know. There may be a couple of sources depending on the type. I don't know how we can tell but if you have insight into this that would be helpful.

Do you guys want me to move this thread to the "R" category? This thread appears to be a combination of R1a and R1b, not really R1a only or R1a specific and therefore should not be in the R1a general category. I will move it unless someone has some good reasoning why I shouldn't.

Fire Haired
09-27-2013, 03:28 AM
Why do you think that R1b is more likely of Turkic and Silk Road influence? I don't know. There may be a couple of sources depending on the type. I don't know how we can tell but if you have insight into this that would be helpful.

Do you guys want me to move this thread to the "R" category? This thread appears to be a combination of R1a and R1b, not really R1a only or R1a specific and therefore should not be in the R1a general category. I will move it unless someone has some good reasoning why I shouldn't.''

This thread was about Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans originally. So it includes a lot of haplogroups technically I2a2a1 probably spread along with R1b L21 and Df27 with Celtic languages to the British isles 3,000-4,500ybp. So I could include that in with discussion too. Germanic tribes spread some I1 so I could include that. Some threads like this one can be about multiple Y DNA haplogroups. If you could move it with all of the posts to something it could fit into that would be fine but I am not sure it fits perfectly with anything.

alan
09-27-2013, 11:14 AM
I really do not get attempts to make M73 Asian. It doesnt make sense. Its position is clearly more northern and its phylogenic connections to M269 make it very unlikely it was originally Turkic or located far to the east deep in central Asia. Everything about it suggests an original position at the east end of the western steppe or around the Urals. Its probably one of the most simple R1b clades to interpret due to these factors. I do not understand why people argue against the obvious in this case.

Its a lot more clearcut than the original position of M269/L23 which could be from anywhere from NW Iran, the Caucasus, the western steppe, the Balkans or Anatolia based on present distribution.

Not accepting the Occams Razor self evident conclusion that M73 probably originated close to the Urals is depriving R1b studies of a valuable fixed point in an otherwise confusing situation. Its even more significant given that it is the closest relative to M269/L23 and is older. I think M73 is a very good anchor point in R1b studies that shows, by its near absence to the south, that P297 elements were north of the Caspian or in the Urals area by c. 5000BC. It also tells us that P297 couldnt have been too far away and given a lack of evidence for movement from the east of the Urals in this timeframe it must have either been there already or moved from the south into the north Caspian area.

P297 did not take off or leave traces until M73 and M269 appeared after 5000BC and 4000BC so the P297 ancestor cannot have been any further west than Caspian Iran if it was located in southerly latitudes as otherwise it would have expanded with farming which took off thousands of years earlier in areas like the Zagross, east Anatolia etc. This reasoning seems to box P297 c. 9000-5000BC into either the south Caspian/Caucasus area or the Ural-north Caspian area.

BMG
09-28-2013, 04:26 PM
M73 is older than turkic or IE languages .Associating R1b with turkic people doesnt make it east asian .We know unlike mongols the turks were mixed from the point we know about them .They had M73 among them and they are the ones who spread it to people more south like uyghurs and hazaras . Maybe it has more northerly origins and so the indo iranian people lacked it.

alan
10-06-2013, 03:03 PM
I think in the early phase when steppe pastoralists were clans etc rather than steppe military empire as in the later periods a heck of a lot of who ended up with what clades may have just been chance of who founded a clan, who survived etc. So I am not surprised that some clades or haplogroups are high in some language groups and lower in others. Clans may have been dominated by one male lineage but I doubt an entire language family was, even in its early days of PIE. The domination of single male lineages probably owed more to the success of particular clans that it did to the original starting population. The archaeology of the Pontic-Caspian is not suggestive to me that a single clade or even haplogroup would have formed the population c. 4000BC. A very long process can of course lead to the descendants of one guy becoming very common but only after millenia. That is certainly the story of Gaelic clans where just one M222 guy less than 2000 years ago has contributed a huge chunk of the males in Ireland. That probably is a likely scenario on the steppes too. The opportunity to become especially dominant is of course hugely enhanced when mobile pastoralists move across vast empty spaces. However, places like Ireland show that the same thing can happen in a more settled country albeit slowly. The big present total of M222 is the result of 1500 years of dominance and would have only been a gradual process..


M73 is older than turkic or IE languages .Associating R1b with turkic people doesnt make it east asian .We know unlike mongols the turks were mixed from the point we know about them .They had M73 among them and they are the ones who spread it to people more south like uyghurs and hazaras . Maybe it has more northerly origins and so the indo iranian people lacked it.

venustas
08-19-2014, 01:13 AM
R1b is not common at more than 5% in the Uyhurs (Probably) it is not in the Turkmen (verifed) and it is probably also rare in Siberia, the farthest east it really goes at a half way desent frequencies is in the bashkirs and diaspora communities in Iran such as Assyrians, and other groups). The Uyghurs the Turkmen and the Siberians havehttp://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252=new Q-M25 which was confused with R1b1 (R-P25)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748#s6=new study much Q1a2-M25 in Turkmens,+Hazara little R1b
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252=new study much Q1a2-M25 in Turkmens (at 42.6) , little R1b at
4.2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC56946/pdf/pq010244.pdf=13 year old study that shows 37% R1b in Turkmens

lgmayka
08-19-2014, 08:57 PM
R1b is not common at more than 5% in the Uyhurs (Probably)
See this paper (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/1/717.full), and in particular Supplementary Table S2 (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2010/09/08/msq247.DC1/mbe-10-0424-File008.xls). In that spreadsheet, rows 221-225 are Uygur. They total 195 samples, of which 16 are R-M343 (8.2%), and 4 are more specifically R-M269 (2.1%).