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Chad Rohlfsen
02-12-2018, 04:56 AM
I am looking to build on my dataset of French samples. Would anyone with all four grandparents from France be open to assisting me? I'll do some free formal stats for anyone that volunteers their kits. Thanks!

Oursedur
02-12-2018, 05:29 AM
Sure, I'm in !

ffoucart
02-12-2018, 06:14 AM
Hi Chad.

No pb.

I've got several genomes which meet your conditions. Even if there is some Belgian ancestry at the 4/5th generation or above.

Thanatos
02-12-2018, 07:05 AM
I'm glad to help too !

anglesqueville
02-12-2018, 07:22 AM
Great idea Chad. For me, I don't satisfy the condition, unfortunately. I will give you my wife's datas, if she accepts.

Helgenes50
02-12-2018, 07:48 AM
Great idea Chad. For me, I don't satisfy the condition, unfortunately. I will give you my wife's datas, if she accepts.

Me too,

But, unfortunately, I'd prefer not satisfy these conditions

palamede
02-12-2018, 11:05 AM
Sorry, but my paternal great-parents are Walloon of the Charleroi region in Belgian Hainaut from villages between 10 to 40 km away from the French border and away from Jeumont a french town of the French Hainaut.

If you would lack of samples, I am almost in your conditions.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-12-2018, 01:39 PM
Okay. Anyone that wants in, go ahead and send me your data. I would prefer 23andme if possible. Send me info on each samples ancestry too, so I know how to use or label it. Thanks!

[email protected]

Chad Rohlfsen
02-12-2018, 01:51 PM
Me too,

But, unfortunately, I'd prefer not satisfy these conditions

You aren't just Norman?

Helgenes50
02-12-2018, 03:50 PM
You aren't just Norman?

100 % full Norman

Chad Rohlfsen
02-12-2018, 06:28 PM
That'll work! Want in?

Chad Rohlfsen
02-12-2018, 06:35 PM
I see some coming in. Thanks everyone! I'll take as many kits as you have. Please specify if any are related if you haven't done so. Thanks!

Camulogène Rix
02-12-2018, 09:10 PM
I see some coming in. Thanks everyone! I'll take as many kits as you have. Please specify if any are related if you haven't done so. Thanks!

What's your objective actually? to study the breakdown of the main haplogroups in France according to the regions?

Chad Rohlfsen
02-12-2018, 10:19 PM
What's your objective actually? to study the breakdown of the main haplogroups in France according to the regions?

I'm going to look at regional differences since Harvard sets lack much for regional variation

anglesqueville
02-12-2018, 10:39 PM
I'm going to look at regional differences since Harvard sets lack much for regional variation

Do you have many data sources outside of Anthrogenica?

Chad Rohlfsen
02-12-2018, 10:59 PM
Right now, I have this and the Harvard samples. I'm going to try and find some more. Does anyone know of more sources? Wasn't there a paper on France not long ago? I can't remember if it was AuDNA or Haplogroups.

anglesqueville
02-13-2018, 07:32 AM
Right now, I have this and the Harvard samples. I'm going to try and find some more. Does anyone know of more sources? Wasn't there a paper on France not long ago? I can't remember if it was AuDNA or Haplogroups.

For my part I can't remember any genomewide serious study about France. There was a text by some guys from the CEPH project, but it was not recent, and I seem to recall that the snps pannel was ridiculous. It has been fiercely debated on this thread two years ago or so. During the blackout of Anthro at the end of 2017 I spent some time searching french datas everywhere, including other forums, but was unable to find anything. Unfortunately I will be surprised if at the end of the day you get more datas than Harvard+Anthro.

Helgenes50
02-13-2018, 07:39 AM
Right now, I have this and the Harvard samples. I'm going to try and find some more. Does anyone know of more sources? Wasn't there a paper on France not long ago? I can't remember if it was AuDNA or Haplogroups.

Be cautious with Harvard data for France
I don't know if there are changes ?.
I remember that what we saw a few years ago, did not make sense.
For example, the French from the Northeast had their address in the NW and so on.
I wrote to Lazaridis in my bad English about this database , no reply
David only kept the NE French in his.

palamede
02-13-2018, 11:11 AM
Be cautious with Harvard data for France
I don't know if there are changes ?.
I remember that what we saw a few years ago, did not make sense.
For example, the French from the Northeast had their address in the NW and so on.
I wrote to Lazaridis in my bad English about this database , no reply
David only kept the NE French in his.

If I remind well the found explanation was about the numbers of departement with a shift of +1 starting for the Corse departments which distorted the search of the regions corresponding to each departement.

Helgenes50
02-13-2018, 06:29 PM
If I remind well the found explanation was about the numbers of departement with a shift of +1 starting for the Corse departments which distorted the search of the regions corresponding to each departement.

Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know the reason.

Camulogène Rix
02-13-2018, 07:00 PM
Right now, I have this and the Harvard samples. I'm going to try and find some more. Does anyone know of more sources? Wasn't there a paper on France not long ago? I can't remember if it was AuDNA or Haplogroups.

I have got this study on M269 haplotype and subclades by a famous French geneticist but I've the feeling that the findings are a bit antediluvian :\
https://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2015020314480042.pdf

palamede
02-13-2018, 07:45 PM
I have got this study on M269 haplotype and subclades by a famous French geneticist but I've the feeling that the findings are a bit antediluvian :\
https://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2015020314480042.pdf

I think it is better to forget this paper for the science and for the memory of Gerard Lucotte. The only interesting thing is to know how could Gerard Lucotte obtain so wrong results ? it is an interesting point for the history of the french research in this domain and also for Gerard Lucotte 's biography. Some rare results could be exact, maybe by better associates. Certainly, Gerard Lucotte hadn't worked in a serene spirit and was the victim of a hostile and irrational campaign .

Voir le chapitre "Controverse" de l'article wiki
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Lucotte

Camulogène Rix
02-13-2018, 08:27 PM
Clearly prof. Lucotte has been ostracized because of his unorthodox opinions regarding races. For his studies, he is neither subsidized by the French government, nor sponsored by private foundations. And when you have no means, this is more difficult to do operational research. In this context, what he has demonstrated here is not so bad.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-14-2018, 10:23 PM
Everyone,

If you can, please spread the message along to any French groups you belong to, or know of. I wrote to a French group at FTDNA, with 7000 members in California. If you know any group, or administrator, please write them. Let's get the largest bank of French data possible. I'll put together the most complete work on France youve ever seen!

Ric
02-14-2018, 11:58 PM
Everyone,

If you can, please spread the message along to any French groups you belong to, or know of. I wrote to a French group at FTDNA, with 7000 members in California. If you know any group, or administrator, please write them. Let's get the largest bank of French data possible. I'll put together the most complete work on France youve ever seen!what are you looking for, specifically ?

Chad Rohlfsen
02-15-2018, 12:43 AM
I would like individuals that have all or majority ancestry from one region in France, as a first priority. However, I will take anyone that is full French on top of that.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-15-2018, 12:52 AM
To get a robust regional cluster, it could take over a dozen samples. The purer, the better. I would like to get good coverage across the cpuntry.

Ric
02-15-2018, 12:28 PM
To get a robust regional cluster, it could take over a dozen samples. The purer, the better. I would like to get good coverage across the cpuntry.

Yes, but what do you want, the ancestry from 23&me, the raw file, something else ?

Chad Rohlfsen
02-15-2018, 12:39 PM
The datafile from 23andme, FTDNA, or Ancestry. I'd prefer 23andme pre-V5.

Celt_??
02-15-2018, 01:35 PM
SORRY TO BE SLIGHTLY OFF-TOPIC. I'm an administrator for the Milam, Mileham, Milum surname project in the US and UK. We have tested 27 Englishmen but they do not match 95% of US MILAMs who are R-U152>L2>L20. There is a French village of Millam in the Nord-Pas de Calais region of France equidistant between Calais and Dunkirk. Flanders and Belgium seem to have a much higher distribution of R-U152 than counties in the UK. I'm would like to learn if there are still families named Millam in that region of France and would like make contact with them. My goal would be to have a couple of them YDNA-37 STR test with our surname group.

I apologize that this is off-topic but I see that several knowledgeable French men are posting on this thread and I'm hoping for suggestions. Please PM me.

Englishmen's result: 21498

ffoucart
02-15-2018, 02:19 PM
The French village of Millam lies in the Westhoek, in French Flanders. The population traditionally spoke Flemish there, and name Millam stands for "middle+ham". The use of ham instead of hem (same meaning) is seen as an Anglo-saxon influence (probably from Boulonnais). The name Millam is unknown to me. It is not present locally. But, if I remember correctly, there a lordly family at Millam, with the name (before 1400). Given we are talking of Flemish people, DF27 is not extremely frequent. U106 is at higher rate.

Celt_??
02-15-2018, 04:04 PM
The French village of Millam lies in the Westhoek, in French Flanders. The population traditionally spoke Flemish there, and name Millam stands for "middle+ham". The use of ham instead of hem (same meaning) is seen as an Anglo-saxon influence (probably from Boulonnais). The name Millam is unknown to me. It is not present locally. But, if I remember correctly, there a lordly family at Millam, with the name (before 1400). Given we are talking of Flemish people, DF27 is not extremely frequent. U106 is at higher rate.

Thank you very much, ffoucart. I have read there is a higher rate of U152 in Flanders. Since US MILAMs are R-U152>L2>L20>CTS9733, I was interested in that haplogroup. Is U152 not higher in Flanders after all?

Celt_??
02-15-2018, 04:05 PM
DOUBLE POST

Chad Rohlfsen
02-15-2018, 04:07 PM
Back on topic, I found a study with 1600 French genomes from NW France. They tested over 377K SNPs. I'm attempting to get the genomes.

Please take the other convo somewhere else.

Ric
02-15-2018, 04:11 PM
The datafile from 23andme, FTDNA, or Ancestry. I'd prefer 23andme pre-V5.
I don't know why it was so hard to say it straight away, hmm... Well, you are asking for some pretty private data. Are you known from somebody here that could back up your good faith, intentions and capabilities ?

Helgenes50
02-15-2018, 04:13 PM
To get a robust regional cluster, it could take over a dozen samples. The purer, the better. I would like to get good coverage across the cpuntry.

Did you receive mine ?
3 individuals 2 Norman and 1 half Norman half Breton

Helgenes50
02-15-2018, 04:18 PM
Back on topic, I found a study with 1600 French genomes from NW France. They tested over 377K SNPs. I'm attempting to get the genomes.

Please take the other convo somewhere else.

It's probably the paper about the variations in NW France
between Pays de la Loire, Normandie and Brittany

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2014175

ffoucart
02-15-2018, 04:51 PM
I don't know why it was so hard to say it straight away, hmm... Well, you are asking for some pretty private data. Are you known from somebody here that could back up your good faith, intentions and capabilities ?

Don't worry. Chad is ok.

ffoucart
02-15-2018, 04:53 PM
Thank you very much, ffoucart. I have read there is a higher rate of U152 in Flanders. Since US MILAMs are R-U152>L2>L20>CTS9733, I was interested in that haplogroup. Is U152 not higher in Flanders after all?

U152 is high in Wallonia, low in Flanders. Can you open a new thread? This is completely off topic.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-15-2018, 05:04 PM
Yes, I did. Thanks!

Chad Rohlfsen
02-15-2018, 05:11 PM
I don't know why it was so hard to say it straight away, hmm... Well, you are asking for some pretty private data. Are you known from somebody here that could back up your good faith, intentions and capabilities ?


I guess I didn't understand your question the first time. I am pretty well known here. If anyone here isn't up to your standards for a reference, you can ask David Reich at Harvard, or Nick Patterson at the Broad Institute about me.

Helgenes50
02-15-2018, 05:56 PM
I don't know why it was so hard to say it straight away, hmm... Well, you are asking for some pretty private data. Are you known from somebody here that could back up your good faith, intentions and capabilities ?

Chad is well known in the world of Ancient DNA, like on Eurogenes blog
or here with a calc of his creation
And with his real name, not hidden behind a pseudo like most of us (like me) on this forum

Ric
02-15-2018, 06:38 PM
I guess I didn't understand your question the first time. I am pretty well known here. If anyone here isn't up to your standards for a reference, you can ask David Reich at Harvard, or Nick Patterson at the Broad Institute about me.
Ok then, I am not sure I am 'pure' North East' French quarter but I believe I have some typical RECENT, traceable on genealogy, ancestry from NON-germanic Lorraine and Northern France (80%) with some addition of Southern and eastern European ancestry (perhaps 18%) but that is already untraceable by genealogy.
Since you are Df27 Chad, i'll mention that although my paternal lineage is from Lorraine, it is only Lorrain since ~1600-1700 or so. Before that, my paternal ancestry was somewhere in the French speaking part of the Benelux, around Liege, possibly. So I am not a case that can support a North East French hot spot for DF27.
I'll send my zipped 23&me raw, V4 to your mailbox.
Thanks and good luck.

PS : Is there anything you are looking for in particular ?

PS : well, message delivery failed, your mailbox seems full. Is there another place you want me to send my files ?

Chad Rohlfsen
02-15-2018, 06:51 PM
Okay, Ric. Thanks! I am hoping to build enough of a database that I make every other source of French data look tiny. Does anyone know of any groups that I can contact to ask for data? I would like to do something similar to the NW France paper, but for the whole country. I would also use more analysis, such as qpWave and qpAdm, checking for admixture from other sources, such as Britain, Germany, and more. I am also partly from Alsace and Lorraine. My family from that area are Malaise, Histler, DeVault, Morel, Claude, Vonie, and Ganier (Gagniere).

Essentially, I just want to build a huge database of French data so that I can look at the regional differences. No one does this or appears to want to do this, so I think I'll try it myself.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-15-2018, 07:11 PM
Ric,

If you can, please send it to [email protected] Thanks!

Camulogène Rix
02-15-2018, 08:37 PM
Essentially, I just want to build a huge database of French data so that I can look at the regional differences. No one does this or appears to want to do this, so I think I'll try it myself.
Thanks to my fellow Anglesqueville I had a look to the Harvard's French individuals displayed in a graph. Two France take shape: North and South, with a genetic border delineated by the River Loire. But this database doesn't look perfectly reliable, and there are certainly individuals who are not from strict French ancestry.
So you are right to create your own database based upon our strong regional particularities (the purer, the better).

When you study French DNA, have in mind the map of the pre Roman Gaul: partially still valid.
21500

Ric
02-15-2018, 09:37 PM
Ric,

If you can, please send it to [email protected] Thanks!
Done.

Titane
02-15-2018, 09:58 PM
Many French Canadians are very very French - nothing else mixed in - with quite a bit of in-breeding and founder effect, except that they are mixed regionally, so not easily used to show the regions they came from, because once arrived, Normandy married le Poitou.
Amongst my 50 000 genocousins on Ancestry, with Tremblay, Lavoie, Gagnon and Bouchard at just about every generation, there may be some willing to share.

Have you considered contacting the admins of the French Heritage project at FT-DNA?

How about making friends with the people at Gedmatch?

Chad Rohlfsen
02-16-2018, 12:03 AM
Many French Canadians are very very French - nothing else mixed in - with quite a bit of in-breeding and founder effect, except that they are mixed regionally, so not easily used to show the regions they came from, because once arrived, Normandy married le Poitou.
Amongst my 50 000 genocousins on Ancestry, with Tremblay, Lavoie, Gagnon and Bouchard at just about every generation, there may be some willing to share.

Have you considered contacting the admins of the French Heritage project at FT-DNA?

How about making friends with the people at Gedmatch?


I contacted all four admins of the FTDNA group a couple days ago. No one has responded yet. I joined their group, so I may contact through there or an FTDNA message board. I've never looked at Gedmatch. Is there a lot of French individuals there?

Ric
02-16-2018, 01:24 AM
Just based on my matches, I believe that MyHeritage has a lot of French, although few of them have a DNA test. And 23&me of course, I don't go there but I assume there are way more French there than here at Anthrogenica, by a lot.

Are you in the df27 group Chad ? There may be a dozen French, at most, in this group, not sure if it's worth your time if you are looking for autosomal makeup.

ffoucart
02-16-2018, 02:40 AM
Few French on Gedmatch I guess.
Chad, If I remember correctly you was one of my father's matches on Gedmatch.

About regional differences, if you want "pure" samples, it's sometimes impossible to get. Remember that borders have changed many times in some places. Therefore it's difficult to have "pure" Alsatian or "pure" Nordiste, without some ancestry in Germany or Switzerland for the first, or in Belgium for the second. At lunch with genealogist from the Nord/Pas de Calais, somebody asked who around us have ancestry in Belgium: on 13, 11 said they have (including myself). It must be said 1 of 2 who didn't have, was ethnically fully Polish. On 3 grandparents from this region, 3 have ancestry in Belgium, 2 already in 1800 (so less than a century before their birth), 1 remote (1700).

Chad Rohlfsen
02-16-2018, 02:56 AM
Yes, I know the odds are low, but necessary for specific regional clusters. What would you say separates Belgium from NE France? Would it be just more Frankish ancestry? I'm not sure if any of you have looked at that. Perhaps I should load up on Belgians too.

Did I match your father? My kit is M154258. What was his, if you don't mind? If you don't want to share his number, you can see if we are related.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-16-2018, 02:58 AM
Just based on my matches, I believe that MyHeritage has a lot of French, although few of them have a DNA test. And 23&me of course, I don't go there but I assume there are way more French there than here at Anthrogenica, by a lot.

Are you in the df27 group Chad ? There may be a dozen French, at most, in this group, not sure if it's worth your time if you are looking for autosomal makeup.

I am in the group. My line is Danish, with Finnish matches. I'm also just looking at autosomal data right now.

ffoucart
02-16-2018, 06:19 AM
Yes, I know the odds are low, but necessary for specific regional clusters. What would you say separates Belgium from NE France? Would it be just more Frankish ancestry? I'm not sure if any of you have looked at that. Perhaps I should load up on Belgians too.

Did I match your father? My kit is M154258. What was his, if you don't mind? If you don't want to share his number, you can see if we are related.

With one to one:

Comparing Kit M154258 (Chad Rohlfsen) and M144353 (*jpf)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 500 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 250 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 6.0 cM


Chr
5
Start Location
139,693,062

End Location
145,224,941

Centimorgans (cM)
6.9

SNPs
974
Largest segment = 6.9 cM
Total of segments > 6 cM = 6.9 cM
1 matching segments

496949 SNPs used for this comparison.

A bit smaller than with "one to many" (which says 7cM)

The difference between NE France and Belgium? Very small. The border is very artificial, it doesn't follow any cultural limit. Sufficient is to look at maps:
evolution of linguitic border (sorry in Dutch):

21505

Full germanic extense:


20602

The border between France and Belgium doesn't even follow the Roman dialects border between Picard and Wallon;
21507

And mind the level of linguistic change in Nord and Pas de Calais:
21509

Oursedur
02-16-2018, 07:56 AM
Chad, did you received my data ?

Chad Rohlfsen
02-16-2018, 07:17 PM
Chad, did you received my data ?

Yes. Thank you!

Camulogène Rix
02-16-2018, 10:18 PM
@Chad , I've just sent you an email, not with my data (I do not fill the bill;)) but with a few information on French regional samples.

Hope it helps.

Camulogène Rix
02-17-2018, 01:19 PM
Many French Canadians are very very French - nothing else mixed in - with quite a bit of in-breeding and founder effect, except that they are mixed regionally, so not easily used to show the regions they came from, because once arrived, Normandy married le Poitou.
Prendre un Canadien français pour avoir un portrait-robot génétique d'un Français rural du 17ème siècle, c'est pas idiot. Dans le PCA d'Angles (K37) tu as une position très centrale par rapport aux autres individus français. Rien d'étonnant donc.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-17-2018, 07:26 PM
I am having a heck of a time getting more French individuals. I've posted in Gedmatch, Facebook, and FTDNA. Not much of a response yet.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-17-2018, 07:27 PM
Should I get some Belgian, German, and Dutch data to assist here?

sktibo
02-17-2018, 07:29 PM
Appreciate you collecting French data Chad, I'm looking forward to the results of what you're able to get together.

Titane
02-17-2018, 08:39 PM
Posting « en français » would increase your chances...
But the reality is that there probably haven’t been that many tested and people are afraid of trusting their info to someone they don’t know.
If you look at DNA.land, their collection effort has not been phenomenal and they promise nice pictures and a different analysis to whoever loads their data.

Chad Rohlfsen
02-17-2018, 08:44 PM
I had one translated to French on a FB group and no one responded.

Theconqueror
02-23-2018, 12:58 PM
What's the end game? I believe you would have more chances of getting raw data if you explained in one paragraph what you are trying to do exactly. Is it for personal research? Health research? IS it funded? Is it for re-purposing and selling the data?

Titane
02-23-2018, 01:35 PM
What's the end game? I believe you would have more chances of getting raw data if you explained in one paragraph what you are trying to do exactly. Is it for personal research? Health research? IS it funded? Is it for re-purposing and selling the data?
Indeed. I met a potential candidate this week, French from France as we call them here (first generation immigrant). Step number one, he did not know how to download his 23andMe raw data file, let alone how to transfer it anywhere - Gedmatch was news to him. A vast proportion of people who test are retirees and computer literacy is limited for many.
He was still trying to make sense of the report he received - « They show me as 22% British and Irish, that is two generations, right? But all my ancestors are French - Nord Pas-de-Calais, how come? »
So I go back to Guillaume le Conquérant, and get a nod...

Theconqueror
02-28-2018, 01:24 AM
Indeed. I met a potential candidate this week, French from France as we call them here (first generation immigrant). Step number one, he did not know how to download his 23andMe raw data file, let alone how to transfer it anywhere - Gedmatch was news to him. A vast proportion of people who test are retirees and computer literacy is limited for many.
He was still trying to make sense of the report he received - « They show me as 22% British and Irish, that is two generations, right? But all my ancestors are French - Nord Pas-de-Calais, how come? »
So I go back to Guillaume le Conquérant, and get a nod...

La seule conquete que les quebecois connaissent c'est la "conquete anglaise" de la Nouvelle-France. Si tu mentionnes la conquete de 1066 par les Normands, tu obtiens un tres gros point d'interrogation.