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Censored
02-12-2018, 07:34 AM
I am not an expert on this stuff, but as I understand it, there is a gradient running from northwest to southeast on the Indian subcontinent and the people are on a cline from more Caucasoid to more aboriginal.

So, with Punjab being such a large area and the Pakistani Punjab being situated west of the Indian Punjab, there should be some natural differences, correct? On top of that, Muslim Punjabis have been much more heavily influenced by migrations from Pashtun and Baluch areas as these overwhelmingly Muslim groups melted into the local Muslim population rather than the Hindu/Sikh population of Punjab.

Now obviously, Jatts and other cross-border ethnic groups with the same ancestry are going to be similar but on the whole, is there reason to believe that Pakistani Punjabis would be more heavily western/northern leaning than their Indian counterparts?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-12-2018, 02:12 PM
So far we have found no difference in genetics of West and East Punjabis. If you are adding the possibility of Muslim punjabis mixing with pashtuns and Baluchs, you have to add the posibility of them mixing with Kami or musselis like population also.

On harappa Punjabi Sikh jatts seem to be more west shifted than their muslim counterparts. Unless someone has obvious recent baluch or Pashtun mix as in case of Khanabadoshi, your average punjabi is same both side. Although keep in mind PJL samples used in genetic calculators are from Lahore, and are even South Indian shifted than Gujaratis.

Reza
02-12-2018, 03:55 PM
Do you think Punjabis Sikhs ought to stand out autosomally?

I had always thought that pre 1500s, Sikhs were drawn from both Muslim and Hindu communities, so presumably they wouldn't be genetically distinct? Unless some of that exogamy in Muslim communities happened post the foundation of Sikhism. I imagine, a similar thing could have happened in medieval Muslim Punjabis communities too before converting to Sikhism?

Partition has had a big impact on population movement too, possibly blurring any subtle differences?

Interesting topic

Raza94
02-12-2018, 06:27 PM
Well I think most Muslims in the subcontinent aren't pure Muslim, as in they were converted long ago from Hinduism. And with Punjab being a central area of conversion to Islam I am guessing that most Punjabis are the same, maybe some minor differences. This is a very interesting topic like Reza said. Being Punjabi its always something I have thought of.

When I was younger one of my best friends was a Sikh and when I would go to his house his parents looked the same as mine and spoke the same language so I've always thought we were the same.

Censored
02-12-2018, 07:17 PM
Well I think most Muslims in the subcontinent aren't pure Muslim, as in they were converted long ago from Hinduism. And with Punjab being a central area of conversion to Islam I am guessing that most Punjabis are the same, maybe some minor differences. This is a very interesting topic like Reza said. Being Punjabi its always something I have thought of.

When I was younger one of my best friends was a Sikh and when I would go to his house his parents looked the same as mine and spoke the same language so I've always thought we were the same.

For some reason a lot of Indian Punjabis just look like any other Indian whereas I can usually pick out Pakistanis regardless of ethnicity. Not sure why this is which is why I ask.

With Pakistani Punjab compared to India there was a lot more migration due to proximity to Afghan regions but also way more conversion so it evens out I guess. At least thatís my theory. But thereíd still probably be a difference to the Hindu/Sikh population.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-12-2018, 07:27 PM
For some reason a lot of Indian Punjabis just look like any other Indian whereas I can usually pick out Pakistanis regardless of ethnicity. Not sure why this is which is why I ask.

With Pakistani Punjab compared to India there was a lot more migration due to proximity to Afghan regions but also way more conversion so it evens out I guess. At least thatís my theory. But thereíd still probably be a difference to the Hindu/Sikh population.

There have been huge changes in religion in past 400-500 years in Punjab region. As we talked about punjabi tribes in other thread, majority of these tribes were shudra or outside of caste system, hence the rituals were more pagan than mainstream religions. I follow this youtube channel called Punjabi lehar run by a muslim jatt from Pakistan Punjab, who interviews elders who saw the partition. The elders who belong to rajput or jatt biradaris mention when they converted to islam, which is usually within past 400-500 years. Did they mix with other biradaris? in Cities yes, because a pakistani punjabi user here stated marriages between different biradaris is more common in cities in comparison to villages.

I am a punjabi born and brought up in India, I live in Canada now and meet Pakistani punjabis all the time. I have never been able to tell the difference tbh until they mention their name, so I understand what Raza94 means. Similarly there is a huge diversity in the region so it'd be weird to say that who looks punjabi or who is not.

One thing we have to keep in mind that religious influence on attire can definitly make one look different, as in my case I wear "karha". So its is easy to tell i am sikh.

Raza94
02-12-2018, 07:49 PM
There have been huge changes in religion in past 400-500 years in Punjab region. As we talked about punjabi tribes in other thread, majority of these tribes were shudra or outside of caste system, hence the rituals were more pagan than mainstream religions. I follow this youtube channel called Punjabi lehar run by a muslim jatt from Pakistan Punjab, who interviews elders who saw the partition. The elders who belong to rajput or jatt biradaris mention when they converted to islam, which is usually within past 400-500 years. Did they mix with other biradaris? in Cities yes, because a pakistani punjabi user here stated marriages between different biradaris is more common in cities in comparison to villages.

I am a punjabi born and brought up in India, I live in Canada now and meet Pakistani punjabis all the time. I have never been able to tell the difference tbh until they mention their name, so I understand what Raza94 means. Similarly there is a huge diversity in the region so it'd be weird to say that who looks punjabi or who is not.

One thing we have to keep in mind that religious influence on attire can definitly make one look different, as in my case I wear "karha". So its is easy to tell i am sikh.

Honestly unless they're wearing the karha or a turban I cannot tell the difference until they say their name, and even then some names are common on both sides. For example I know a Sikh with the name Sarfraz and a Hindu with the name Sahil. Not to mention amongst Jatts there are common last names like Bajwa,Cheema and even some Sandhu and Sidhu, which just leads me to believe that these last names are not religious at all but are Jatt names.

Koshur_Sam
02-13-2018, 12:39 AM
Honestly unless they're wearing the karha or a turban I cannot tell the difference until they say their name, and even then some names are common on both sides. For example I know a Sikh with the name Sarfraz and a Hindu with the name Sahil. Not to mention amongst Jatts there are common last names like Bajwa,Cheema and even some Sandhu and Sidhu, which just leads me to believe that these last names are not religious at all but are Jatt names.

I agree, I often get mistaken for Sikh, not even just Punjabi but straight up Sikh Lol
Some say I have a Sikh face which I’ve never really understood because surely Punjabis look similar on both sides unless like you said there’s a distinct difference like a turban or kara to identify them

passion
02-13-2018, 01:39 AM
most high cast punjabi tribes are pretty similar , the reason is that they fall outside of varna/caste system

Censored
02-13-2018, 02:08 AM
There have been huge changes in religion in past 400-500 years in Punjab region. As we talked about punjabi tribes in other thread, majority of these tribes were shudra or outside of caste system, hence the rituals were more pagan than mainstream religions. I follow this youtube channel called Punjabi lehar run by a muslim jatt from Pakistan Punjab, who interviews elders who saw the partition. The elders who belong to rajput or jatt biradaris mention when they converted to islam, which is usually within past 400-500 years. Did they mix with other biradaris? in Cities yes, because a pakistani punjabi user here stated marriages between different biradaris is more common in cities in comparison to villages.

I am a punjabi born and brought up in India, I live in Canada now and meet Pakistani punjabis all the time. I have never been able to tell the difference tbh until they mention their name, so I understand what Raza94 means. Similarly there is a huge diversity in the region so it'd be weird to say that who looks punjabi or who is not.

One thing we have to keep in mind that religious influence on attire can definitly make one look different, as in my case I wear "karha". So its is easy to tell i am sikh.

Hmm, I haven't seen that many Sikhs so I can't say for sure. However look at Bobby Jindal and Kunal Nayyar, both Punjabi Hindus. They don't look Pakistani at all.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 02:21 AM
Hmm, I haven't seen that many Sikhs so I can't say for sure. However look at Bobby Jindal and Kunal Nayyar, both Punjabi Hindus. They don't look Pakistani at all.

Bobby Jindal is a Baniya, who migrated in past 2 centuries from central India. They are all over India and look pretty much same regardless of region. And I have seen plenty of Karachi muslims who look same. There is no Pakistani look, like there is no Indian look. Pakistani have high SI people, genetically scoring same as someone from south India, so has India. I lived in Toronto, near biggest Pakistani population (Malton and Missisuaga), they come in all looks and sizes you can find in India except maybe some North East Indians.

and like Koshur (Pakistani Kashmiri) and Raza (Pakistani Punjabi syed) said, they havent noticed the difference either unless you go to areas like Balochistan or FATA, where the difference starts showing up.

What do you mean when you say Pakistani Look? here is Indian Punjabi jatt, Jaggi kharoud, which can pass all over Pakistan Punjab, Sindh, even as far as Pakhtun areas. And He is not atypical either:

https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/12407155_1683996371872097_180567389_n.jpg

and then you have another punjabi Master Saleem, Mirassi muslim from east punjab, who can pass in diversity west punjab and sindh as well.

https://content.jdmagicbox.com/events/A611393/A611393_gal_20161121093608.jpg


These are the two extreme ends of Majority of NW SA, everyone falls in between them. Be it majority of Pakistan or NW India.

passion
02-13-2018, 02:52 AM
Bobby Jindal is a Baniya, who migrated in past 2 centuries from central India. They are all over India and look pretty much same regardless of region. And I have seen plenty of Karachi muslims who look same. There is no Pakistani look, like there is no Indian look. Pakistani have high SI people, genetically scoring same as someone from south India, so has India. I lived in Toronto, near biggest Pakistani population (Malton and Missisuaga), they come in all looks and sizes you can find in India except maybe some North East Indians.

and like Koshur (Pakistani Kashmiri) and Raza (Pakistani Punjabi syed) said, they havent noticed the difference either unless you go to areas like Balochistan or FATA, where the difference starts showing up.

What do you mean when you say Pakistani Look? here is Indian Punjabi jatt, Jaggi kharoud, which can pass all over Pakistan Punjab, Sindh, even as far as Pakhtun areas. And He is not atypical either:

https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/12407155_1683996371872097_180567389_n.jpg

and then you have another punjabi Master Saleem, Mirassi muslim from east punjab, who can pass in diversity west punjab and sindh as well.

https://content.jdmagicbox.com/events/A611393/A611393_gal_20161121093608.jpg


These are the two extreme ends of Majority of NW SA, everyone falls in between them. Be it majority of Pakistan or NW India.

but there are certain looks which dominate ethnicities , e.g indivisually you can find people in punjab that can pass from gilgit to tamilnadu but if you take 100 punjabis , punjabi look will stick out.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 02:54 AM
but there are certain looks which dominate ethnicities , e.g indivisually you can find people in punjab that can pass from gilgit to tamilnadu but if you take 100 punjabis , punjabi look will stick out.

Indeed, my point is more about Pakistani and Indian look or West vs East punjabi as per OP.

Censored
02-13-2018, 03:27 AM
Indeed, my point is more about Pakistani and Indian look or West vs East punjabi as per OP.

It's very difficult to pinpoint. I just know that there are some Pakistani girls that I've seen and I cannot picture them being any other nationality. Look at these:

21446
21449

There are also others who could be Persian, Indian, Afghan but there is a stereotypical Pakistani look. The number of Indian Punjabis I've met is rather small so I can't really say for sure that they look different but it's never happened to me where I've asked someone if they're Pakistani and they turn out to be something else, lol.

Sapporo
02-13-2018, 04:26 AM
Hmm, I haven't seen that many Sikhs so I can't say for sure. However look at Bobby Jindal and Kunal Nayyar, both Punjabi Hindus. They don't look Pakistani at all.

Bobby Jindal is an Aggarwal. So, he's an assimilated Punjabi but technically Marwari. You can find plenty of Pakistani Punjabis who resemble Kunal Nayyar. More famous Punjabi Americans (Sikh and Hindu) are Nikki Haley (Randhawa), Deepak Chopra, Vikas Khanna, Rajeev Suri, Nikesh Arora, Samir Arora, Nita Ahuja, Kartar Dhillon, Jay Sidhu, Parag Khanna, Susham Bedi, Harry Sidhu, Ravinder Bhalla, Aneesh Chopra, Sabir Bhatia, Kalpana Chawla, Sanjiv Sidhu, Gurbaksh Chahal, Preet Bharara, etc.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 04:50 AM
I don't know if I am the only one who thinks this but the Indian girl who won miss world/universe or whatever it was could pass as Pakistani as well from what I have seen of her. But someone told me she is Jatt so maybe that is why she looks like she could pass for both.

passion
02-13-2018, 04:54 AM
It's very difficult to pinpoint. I just know that there are some Pakistani girls that I've seen and I cannot picture them being any other nationality. Look at these:

21446
21449

There are also others who could be Persian, Indian, Afghan but there is a stereotypical Pakistani look. The number of Indian Punjabis I've met is rather small so I can't really say for sure that they look different but it's never happened to me where I've asked someone if they're Pakistani and they turn out to be something else, lol.

I think Saba Qamar can easily pass as Sikh or Khatri Punjabi , she has a generic Punjabi face since she is from Gujranwala(Central Punjab)

Sapporo
02-13-2018, 04:56 AM
I don't know if I am the only one who thinks this but the Indian girl who won miss world/universe or whatever it was could pass as Pakistani as well from what I have seen of her. But someone told me she is Jatt so maybe that is why she looks like she could pass for both.

Manushi Chhillar is Haryanvi Hindu Jat so they're correct.

21450

Anyways, I've met plenty of Pakistani Punjabis and even some non Punjabis such as Sindhis (Memons and Lohana). A few commented that I look more "Pakistani" than Indian, which didn't surprise me since I've noticed sometimes Pakistanis identify more in terms of nationality than ethnicity. However, I've corrected them and explained that Pakistan borders Indian Punjab, Rajasthan, Jammu and the Kutch region of Gujarat. People on both sides of the border tend to look fairly similar.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 04:57 AM
It's very difficult to pinpoint. I just know that there are some Pakistani girls that I've seen and I cannot picture them being any other nationality. Look at these:

21446
21449

There are also others who could be Persian, Indian, Afghan but there is a stereotypical Pakistani look. The number of Indian Punjabis I've met is rather small so I can't really say for sure that they look different but it's never happened to me where I've asked someone if they're Pakistani and they turn out to be something else, lol.

I have been wrong many times when trying to pinpoint if a girl is Pakistani or Indian. The shades they have in Pakistan, they also have in India so its hard to decipher, again unless a piece of clothing gives it away.

Aside from religious clothing between a Muslim and Sikh there are some subtle differences. For example most men in Pakistan wear the Shalwar but in India its usually the pyjama. Although in rural areas for the older generation its still dhoti/leacha on both sides.

Btw I know it will be hard to answer but what about a Pakistani girl is different to you as opposed to Indian? Whether the whole country or just Punjabi.

passion
02-13-2018, 05:05 AM
I have been wrong many times when trying to pinpoint if a girl is Pakistani or Indian. The shades they have in Pakistan, they also have in India so its hard to decipher, again unless a piece of clothing gives it away.

Aside from religious clothing between a Muslim and Sikh there are some subtle differences. For example most men in Pakistan wear the Shalwar but in India its usually the pyjama. Although in rural areas for the older generation its still dhoti/leacha on both sides.

Btw I know it will be hard to answer but what about a Pakistani girl is different to you as opposed to Indian? Whether the whole country or just Punjabi.

individual level guessing of South Asians can be quite tricky (because of many factors involved) unless someone look like Wasim Akram or Muhammad Asif(than you are sure they got to be from Punjab), but as a group all South Asian ethnicities have some core looks that I can easily tell apart.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 05:12 AM
individual level guessing of South Asians can be quite tricky (because of many factors involved) unless someone look like Wasim Akram or Muhammad Asif(than you are sure they got to be from Punjab), but as a group all South Asian ethnicities have some core looks that I can easily tell apart.

Fair enough. I can kind of tell if someone is South Indian but thats about it. Even then some of them end up being from Karachi

Sapporo
02-13-2018, 05:12 AM
Aside from religious clothing between a Muslim and Sikh there are some subtle differences. For example most men in Pakistan wear the Shalwar but in India its usually the pyjama. Although in rural areas for the older generation its still dhoti/leacha on both sides.

Btw I know it will be hard to answer but what about a Pakistani girl is different to you as opposed to Indian? Whether the whole country or just Punjabi.

I've never seen elderly Indian Punjabis wear dhoti but I've never been to India to be fair. In the West, the elderly men wear plain kurta pajamas and women more casual looking salwar kameez (suits).

Raza94
02-13-2018, 05:19 AM
I've never seen elderly Indian Punjabis wear dhoti but I've never been to India to be fair. In the West, the elderly men wear plain kurta pajamas and women more casual looking salwar kameez (suits).

I know in West Punjab they don't wear the classic Punjabi suits anymore. Mostly the modern salwar kameez. Also weird how we don't call it chunni but dupatta instead. Always wondered why it was like that.

passion
02-13-2018, 05:20 AM
Fair enough. I can kind of tell if someone is South Indian but thats about it. Even then some of them end up being from Karachi

yeah karachi people are complex , but I still think many Muhajirs can look similar atleast to many Punjabi/Sindhi Pakistanis , since many Muhajirs are from elite background.

here is a video from food festival in Karachi , we can see how many middle class muhajirs look.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i1mreyE5FU

Sapporo
02-13-2018, 05:24 AM
I know in West Punjab they don't wear the classic Punjabi suits anymore. Mostly the modern salwar kameez. Also weird how we don't call it chunni but dupatta instead. Always wondered why it was like that.

Interesting. I've noticed that at weddings the woman have diversified their style and often wear the "Pakistani" style, which always has very slim pants/trousers and longer kameez. They are usually more stylish and often extravagant looking than the plain Punjabi suit. Also, I can vouch for the fact that I've only heard the term chuuni and not dupatta used.

note: Most men at Sikh weddings and receptions stick to traditional western suits unless the wedding has coordinated close friends and family of the groom to wear shalwar kameez. Sometimes individuals elect to wear shalwar kameez regardless.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 05:24 AM
yeah karachi people are complex , but I still think many Muhajirs can look similar atleast to many Punjabi/Sindhi Pakistanis , since many Muhajirs are from elite background.

here is a video from food festival in Karachi , we can see how many middle class muhajirs look.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i1mreyE5FU

Yea it is hard to distinguish and also some of these people might just be Punjabis living in Karachi.

But, Lahore > Karachi

passion
02-13-2018, 05:27 AM
Yea it is hard to distinguish and also some of these people might just be Punjabis living in Karachi.

But, Lahore > Karachi

yeah also approx 25% of Karachi is Pashtun now but they havent reach urban middle class/upper middle class yet , specially DHA , Clifton etc are still elite Muhajir dominated.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 05:28 AM
Interesting. I've noticed that at weddings the woman have diversified their style and often wear the "Pakistani" style, which always has very slim pants/trousers and longer kameez. They are usually more stylish and often extravagant looking than the plain Punjabi suit. Also, I can vouch for the fact that I've only heard the term chuuni and not dupatta used.

Yea I guess at weddings and events like that if you want to go fancy you could go with the Pakistani style, although I do think the classic Punjabi suit has its own charm to it.

Not surprised that you've only heard Chunni. There are a few words that disappear in the vocab when you cross the border. For example we don't use "Appan"

Raza94
02-13-2018, 05:29 AM
yeah also approx 25% of Karachi is Pashtun now but they havent reach urban middle class/upper middle class yet , specially DHA , Clifton etc are still elite Muhajir dominated.

Yea Karachi has a pretty diverse makeup of people. Cities in Punjab are dominated by Punjabis mostly. Even Lahore a cosmopolitan type city is still close to 90% Punjabi

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 05:34 AM
Dupatta is used a lot in Indian punjab, as much as chunni but it depends on region. Remember Surjit Bindrakhia’s song “Dupatta tera satt rang da”. It’s like 50/50 split. Same way about Pajama and Chadra (punjabi version of Lungi/Dhoti). It is worn by some elders in rural areas, more so by Hindu Gujjars. Have seen plenty of Sikh elders in Chadra as well. Also it is part of the Punjabi traditional Bhangra dress. Chadra is more famous in Majha and Malwa area than anywhere else.

Also you’d be surprised how much Pakistani style suit and shalwar is famous among East Punjabi women, especially in weddings. My mom’s entire party suit collection is Pakistani suit with Patiala shalwar.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 05:39 AM
Dupatta is used a lot in Indian punjab, as much as chunni but it depends on region. Remember Surjit Bindrakhia’s song “Dupatta tera satt rang da”. It’s like 50/50 split. Same way about Pajama and Chadra (punjabi version of Lungi/Dhoti). It is worn by some elders in rural areas, more so by Hindu Gujjars. Have seen plenty of Sikh elders in Chadra as well. Also it is part of the Punjabi traditional Bhangra dress. Chadra is more famous in Majha and Malwa area than anywhere else.

Also you’d be surprised how much Pakistani style suit and shalwar is famous among East Punjabi women, especially in weddings. My mom’s entire party suit collection is Pakistani suit with Patiala shalwar.

Yea I have heard Dupatta in a few songs but mostly like Bollywood. Yea I guess the fashion will transfer depending on what is trending at that point in time. My mom does still wear the phulkari type stuff but I don't think she or any West Punjabi girl I know has ever worn the classic suit.

Also I have never heard someone in West Punjab with the Malwa dialect

Sapporo
02-13-2018, 05:40 AM
Anyways, back to the OP of the thread, I've seen the results of various individual Pakistani Punjabis (Jatts, Rajputs, Gujjars, Arains, Awans, Syeds, etc.) and we also have the individual results of the PJL (Punjabi Lahore) samples and the Xing Pakistani Punjabi Arain. Comparing them to Indian Punjabis (Jatts, Khatris, Tarkhans, Kamboj, Saini, etc.), there isn't anything to suggest that Pakistani and Indian Punjabis would be genetically different on a large scale. Not even individual results from people from parts of Azad Kashmir suggest they'e any different to Jatts, Rajputs, or Gujjars from parts of Northern Punjab.

The only Pakistani Punjabis that might score different are those potentially mixed with non Punjabis such as Pakistani Pakhtuns and Baloch. These would be mixed individuals from cities such as Islamabad or overlapping groups such as Hindkowans who live on the borders of KPK and Pakistani Punjab (individuals can be from both ethnic groups). Other examples are Southern Punjabis (Saraiki speakers) living in Dera Ghazi Khan district of Punjab or Dera Ismail Khan district of KPK. Either Baloch or Pashtun ancestry is possible for them.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 05:44 AM
Anyways, back to the OP of the thread, I've seen the results of various individual Pakistani Punjabis (Jatts, Rajputs, Gujjars, Arains, Awans, Syeds, etc.) and we also have the individual results of the PJL (Punjabi Lahore) samples and the Xing Pakistani Punjabi Arain. Comparing them to Indian Punjabis (Jatts, Khatris, Tarkhans, Kamboj, Saini, etc.), there isn't anything to suggest that Pakistani and Indian Punjabis would be genetically different on a large scale. Not even individual results from people from parts of Azad Kashmir suggest they'e any different to Jatts, Rajputs, Gujjars from parts of Northern Punjab.

The only Pakistani Punjabis that might score different are those potentially mixed with non Punjabis such as Pakistani Pakhtuns and Baloch. These would be mixed individuals from cities such as Islamabad or overlapping groups such as Hindkowans who live on the borders of KPK and Pakistani Punjab (individuals can be from both ethnic groups). In the case of Baloch, it would be Punjabis from Southern Punjab near the Balochistan border.

By south Punjab do you mean like Saraikis?

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 05:51 AM
By south Punjab do you mean like Saraikis?

Yea saraikis. Although it’s debatable to call them Punjabi. I think they have/deserve their own identity.

There was a good chunk of muslims migration from Malwa. Keep in mind the dialect probably died with the elders in west punjab. The new generation speaks the blended dialect. I was listening to this elder whose family moved from Ropar to multan, he spoke in fluent Powadhi accent, to the point the anchor could not understand him lol.

passion
02-13-2018, 05:53 AM
Yea saraikis. Although it’s debatable to call them Punjabi. I think they have/deserve their own identity.

There was a good chunk of muslims migration from Malwa. Keep in mind the dialect probably died with the elders in west punjab. The new generation speaks the blended dialect. I was listening to this elder whose family moved from Ropar to multan, he spoke in fluent Powadhi accent, to the point the anchor could not understand him lol.

If you travel across Punjab there are subtle differences between people of Lahore and people of Multan , people of Multan give more gedrosia vibe.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 05:56 AM
Also I own two kurta and chadra set lol, here is a guy wearing kurta with chadra. Although it is mostly associated with *Velly* (notorious) kind of dudes.

https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/c0.83.1080.1080/21984801_127985844457295_622065531096137728_n.jpg

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 05:58 AM
If you travel across Punjab there are subtle differences between people of Lahore and people of Multan , people of Multan give more gedrosia vibe.

No doubt, Multan is like the south western border of Punjab. It’d be obvious for people of that region having high Iran_N affinity.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 05:58 AM
Yea saraikis. Although it’s debatable to call them Punjabi. I think they have/deserve their own identity.

There was a good chunk of muslims migration from Malwa. Keep in mind the dialect probably died with the elders in west punjab. The new generation speaks the blended dialect. I was listening to this elder whose family moved from Ropar to multan, he spoke in fluent Powadhi accent, to the point the anchor could not understand him lol.

Yea when I hear some people speak Saraiki I can barely understand it, they do have their own identity.

Now correct me if I am wrong but is it the Malwa people who say stuff like "Hojuga", "Chaluga" etc.? Because I have never heard those words from someone in West Punjab. Only hear it from East Punjabis but not sure if its Malwa or even Majha and Doab people who use it? West Punjab is mostly influenced by Majha dialect from what I can tell.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 06:01 AM
If you travel across Punjab there are subtle differences between people of Lahore and people of Multan , people of Multan give more gedrosia vibe.

I feel like after Multan its a totally different place

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 06:08 AM
Yea when I hear some people speak Saraiki I can barely understand it, they do have their own identity.

Now correct me if I am wrong but is it the Malwa people who say stuff like "Hojuga", "Chaluga" etc.? Because I have never heard those words from someone in West Punjab. Only hear it from East Punjabis but not sure if its Malwa or even Majha and Doab people who use it? West Punjab is mostly influenced by Majha dialect from what I can tell.

It’s Doabi. I know because it’s used in my village area as well, which is technically part of doaba. *Hojana* is used more in Ludhiana moga area, which you’re probably more familiar with.

The Punjabi in west punjab is heavily influenced by Lahori and Sialkoti dialects which are more similar to Amritsari or Majha as we say. The other dialects in west punjab died with elders. After watching Punjabi lehar videos on youtube I realized the difference in dialects of Elders vs Youth. Some elders had Hoshiyarpuri accent, some had Powadhi and even some spoke with Gurdaspuria accent * Ki karndeya * * Kithe jaandeya * etc.

Raza94
02-13-2018, 06:12 AM
It’s Doabi. I know because it’s used in my village area as well, which is technically part of doaba. *Hojana* is used more in Ludhiana moga area, which you’re probably more familiar with.

Okay thanks for clearing that up. Always was confused as to who uses it, but even people from Lyallpur who are mostly Doabi never use it. I guess that could just be the overall influence of Majha in West Punjab taking over though

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 06:13 AM
Okay thanks for clearing that up. Always was confused as to who uses it, but even people from Lyallpur who are mostly Doabi never use it. I guess that could just be the overall influence of Majha in West Punjab taking over though

I’d say west Punjab got dominated by Majha accent while East punjab got dominated by Majha+Doabi.

passion
02-13-2018, 06:16 AM
I feel like after Multan its a totally different place

what differences you noted ?

students from DG khan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOSBBMzfEW8

Raza94
02-13-2018, 06:24 AM
what differences you noted ?

students from DG khan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOSBBMzfEW8

Sorry I did not necessarily mean the people but how it is over there and the overall infrastructure of the places in what I guess you would call the Saraiki belt. Multan while having the seventh largest population in Pakistan does not seem as cosmopolitan as places like Lahore,Lyallpur and such. Seems much more mystical and Im guessing that is because of the huge sufi influence there. As for overall infrastructure I think that is because the government focuses almost all their efforts in Lahore and central Punjab

Raza94
02-13-2018, 06:25 AM
I’d say west Punjab got dominated by Majha accent while East punjab got dominated by Majha+Doabi.

Yea that is for sure

Censored
02-13-2018, 07:57 AM
I have been wrong many times when trying to pinpoint if a girl is Pakistani or Indian. The shades they have in Pakistan, they also have in India so its hard to decipher, again unless a piece of clothing gives it away.

Aside from religious clothing between a Muslim and Sikh there are some subtle differences. For example most men in Pakistan wear the Shalwar but in India its usually the pyjama. Although in rural areas for the older generation its still dhoti/leacha on both sides.

Btw I know it will be hard to answer but what about a Pakistani girl is different to you as opposed to Indian? Whether the whole country or just Punjabi.

Sharper and more Perso-Afghan leaning features but I also think a lot of Indian(Hindu) girls look a bit malnourished/frail probably due to vegetarianism. Sometimes Indian Muslims look very similar to Pakistanis, I think this goes back to diet.

SpinosaurusN3H1
02-13-2018, 08:04 AM
The three most common Y-DNA Haplogroups among Indian Punjabis were found to be R1a, J2 and L1(Kivisild2003b), while among Punjabi Muslims are R1a, J2and R2a(Poznik2016)

pegasus
02-13-2018, 09:34 AM
Sharper and more Perso-Afghan leaning features but I also think a lot of Indian(Hindu) girls look a bit malnourished/frail probably due to vegetarianism. Sometimes Indian Muslims look very similar to Pakistanis, I think this goes back to diet.

Where are you getting your facts from? Sharper features is not contingent on having recent ancestry. Also malnourishment infers lack of food not being vegetarian/vegan, you do realize protein can be available through soy or lentils right? From my observation the Indian Muslims I have met look indistinguishable from Pakistanis, have you not seen the PJL Lahore samples?

Censored
02-13-2018, 10:06 AM
Where are you getting your facts from? Sharper features is not contingent on having recent ancestry. Also malnourishment infers lack of food not being vegetarian/vegan, you do realize protein can be available through soy or lentils right? From my observation the Indian Muslims I have met look indistinguishable from Pakistanis, have you not seen the PJL Lahore samples?

I never said it was. Indian Punjabis also often have sharper features. I mentioned Perso-Afghan features in the same breath but I wasn't implying it's the same thing. A lot of South Indians have sharp features too but they do not necessarily look Middle Eastern.

Yes, I meant undernutrition-there was already a study that showed people in Delhi were lacking enough protein in their diets. You can get protein from vegetarian food too but in most cases it's not enough.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 01:06 PM
Sharper and more Perso-Afghan leaning features but I also think a lot of Indian(Hindu) girls look a bit malnourished/frail probably due to vegetarianism. Sometimes Indian Muslims look very similar to Pakistanis, I think this goes back to diet.

Why you sound so familiar..

passion
02-13-2018, 01:18 PM
Why you sound so familiar..

I think he is that famous Muhajir troll

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1975-Pakistan-and-the-Muhajir-perspective-split-thread

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 02:09 PM
I think he is that famous Muhajir troll

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1975-Pakistan-and-the-Muhajir-perspective-split-thread

Yea the post pattern is quite similar. Reminds of the other account Lisa I think.

Targum
02-13-2018, 03:05 PM
apropos nothing in particular I am struck how the Urdu-mediated Arabic word "muhajir" is so similar to the Hebrew "mehager' מהגר emigrant

MonkeyDLuffy
02-13-2018, 03:07 PM
apropos nothing in particular I am struck how the Urdu-mediated Arabic word "muhajir" is so similar to the Hebrew "mehager' מהגר emigrant

Both are semetic languages afterall, belonging to same language tree.

Censored
02-13-2018, 07:03 PM
I think he is that famous Muhajir troll

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1975-Pakistan-and-the-Muhajir-perspective-split-thread

I have no connection to Pakistan whatsoever but I find it amusing you think that lol.
I donít know how anything that Iíve said sounds so ridiculous.

Edit: Iíve looked at the link and saw how people were describing that user. I could see how Iíd be confused for him but whatever.

pegasus
05-11-2018, 01:26 AM
Bobby Jindal is an Aggarwal. So, he's an assimilated Punjabi but technically Marwari. You can find plenty of Pakistani Punjabis who resemble Kunal Nayyar. More famous Punjabi Americans (Sikh and Hindu) are Nikki Haley (Randhawa), Deepak Chopra, Vikas Khanna, Rajeev Suri, Nikesh Arora, Samir Arora, Nita Ahuja, Kartar Dhillon, Jay Sidhu, Parag Khanna, Susham Bedi, Harry Sidhu, Ravinder Bhalla, Aneesh Chopra, Sabir Bhatia, Kalpana Chawla, Sanjiv Sidhu, Gurbaksh Chahal, Preet Bharara, etc.

I met 3 of these people , Rav is related to a business associate of mine, Bharara I met at Georgetown at a conference, and Parag Khanna and his annoying ass wife at a K street event. Rav was the best of the three, very nice guy , Bharara is very intelligent but has that NY brashness, Khanna was also very intelligent and a great speaker but his wife was annoying asf , my friend called her "skeletor"

shudra
05-11-2018, 02:16 AM
Not at all. Comparing GEDmatch results, one sees that both are genetically alike.
And like MDL has mentioned, Punjabi Jat Sikhs appear to be slightly more west-shifted which I'll attribute to their more endogamic nature compared to their Muslim counterparts who perhaps married other non-Jatt Punjabi Muslims?