PDA

View Full Version : Alphabet Soup -- Regional Languages Discussion.



khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 04:22 AM
All discussion/questions pertaining to regional languages that don't deserve their own threads, or are causing another thread to veer off course, go here.

F. ex. language comparisons, etymologies, general wordlists, etc. Since this is a Hindi subforum, moderated by 2 non-Hindi-speakers, I'm going to go ahead and say anything non-Hindustani related should start out in this thread. Perhaps we will make separate dedicated stickied threads for languages/topics that are generating lots of discussion.

redifflal
06-07-2018, 03:52 AM
What's the interest level in having an actual Bengali language thread on here? Like with writing in Bengali script as well. I'm just saying since we do have a sizeable number of Bengalis on here although I'm not sure how many are Bengali reading/writing capable. I'd love to at least be able to bring in articles from banglapedia for discussion on anthropological subjects in the Bengali language, and if we can, over time, maybe even delve into genetic subjects also in Bengali. Not sure how possible latter is. The desire stems from graduating our languages from just a humanities level to actually scientifically/technologically capable. While we are amateurs both in the language as well as in the science, it may attract the right crowds over.

khanabadoshi
06-07-2018, 04:44 AM
^^ I say go for it. Just start one, people will come. People will increase their literacy in the language if there is a space for it here. It will be good to have a place for those interested to practice, learn, teach, etc. It's hard to practice reading/writing for those who are in the diaspora. I think it's really good idea.
I will sticky all language-specific threads so that they stay on the top of the subforum.

Reza
06-07-2018, 07:05 AM
Great idea redifflal.

I must profess, my formal Bangla isn't particular good, let alone my literacy in written Bangla. Sylheti and that's a different matter!

But it might be a useful way to learn, explore more about the language... There is actually much to talk about.

Being British born, unfortunately I never did get the opportunity to receive any formal education in Bangla. Had to learn to read and write pretty much off my own back, and help from parents. The large variations between dialectal Bangla and shuddho Bangla doesn't help matters.

redifflal
06-07-2018, 01:06 PM
Great idea redifflal.

I must profess, my formal Bangla isn't particular good, let alone my literacy in written Bangla. Sylheti and that's a different matter!

But it might be a useful way to learn, explore more about the language... There is actually much to talk about.

Being British born, unfortunately I never did get the opportunity to receive any formal education in Bangla. Had to learn to read and write pretty much off my own back, and help from parents. The large variations between dialectal Bangla and shuddho Bangla doesn't help matters.

Reza I understand the struggle. I do believe and support both language positivity as well as dialect positivity. There are no hard fast rules that an internet Bengali conversation has to be in the standard dialect. Matter of fact I have noticed many Bangladeshi friends actually change the spelling while writing in Bangla as well online to match their pronunciation. E.g. most easy one is "I was eating". In standard it would be "aami khach-chhilam". It would be spelled "আমি খাচ্ছিলাম". Now in the shadhu bhasha this would be "aami khai-te-chhilam" or in Bengali letters "আমি খাইতেছিলাম". In Dhaka dialect I'd imagine this turns to "aami khai-ta-silam", and that is because what is chh in West Bengal becomes s in east. But what I'm noticing in social media is that users of these dialects are making the Bengali spelling to match the pronunciation as in "আমি খাইতাসিলাম". Now these aren't folks making a spelling mistake. It is done consciously. And I honestly support this. I think the Sylheti dialect turns the kh into h (which is also what Ahomiya language does), so you guys would say haitasilam or "হাইতাসিলাম".

I actually have a theory on how these dialect pronunciation differences came about by geography, but there is literally no scholarship again on such items, at least not on the internet. My theory is from the little shadhu bhasha or the old Sanskrit-to-modern-Bangla continuum language that I do know for clues in certain words. Example the word for year in shadhu bhasha is বৎসর or baw-t-shore. In the standard dialect which is from West Bengal, this becomes বছর or baw-chhore. In Bangladesh this becomes pronounced as baw-sore but like I said many Bangladeshis on social media etc are spelling this consciously now to match their pronunciation as বসর. So the key I think is in the shadhu bhasha and then to track down how it evolved from there. This word for year and the word for fish (মৎস - মচ্ছ - মাছ or motsho from Sanskrit matsya to mochchho to maachh in the west while in east this also possibly gave way to maas?) is the basis for my theory that modern standard Bangla converts all the hard stopping t's followed by s into chh whereas in eastern dialects they went with making the t silent and kept the sh but also pronounced it as s which is technically the correct pronunciation anyway as far as the dental s being used.
I've been itching to post on stuff like this though, but I'm not sure if this theory is immature and ill conceived or on the money, and there is literally no online forums to hash this out. Dialect differences in the present and potential unity in past is definitely a point of interest.

khanabadoshi
06-09-2018, 11:35 AM
I've stickied the Bengali thread.

surbakhunWeesste
08-26-2018, 06:44 AM
I visited Kinnaur to record samples of the endangered language spoken there in different valleys along with this friend who in 2015 went to UC Berkeley as a visiting scholar to present this work. During those data collection surveys, I got a chance to ask people about their historical roots. Some claimed they were Rajputs from the plains who migrated up during the Islamic period. Some claimed that that came to Kinnaur from a more Northern location. I am guessing they could be an offshoot of the Brokpa or an earlier parent population.

I have a big volume on Kinnaur on my book shelf. Let me quote the great British-Greek mountaineer author, Marco Pallis about the people of Sangla valley-
'a peculiar race inhabits Chitkul and its sister villages of Raksam and Sangla, who affiinities I have not been able to ascertain. There is no trace of the Mongoloid in their faces, neither do they look like Indians. They are all powerful and strikingly beautiful.'

I am not trying to show off neither I am trying to attack anyone. I am putting a new point up for discussion. And since there is resistance to it, I am giving these references.

Do the Sangla people speak Kinnauri or some indo-aryan language?

People from the himalayas all the way till pamir have some 'mongoloid' in them. I have no idea why some here jump 20 feet away when mongoloid gets mentioned. LMFAO.
Even I have some mongoloid in me genetically, it shows in a peculiar way on my face and I love it. It feels great when people say I look 1/25 sometimes 1/2 Japanese at times.

sudkol
08-26-2018, 06:57 AM
Do the Sangla people speak Kinnauri or some indo-aryan language?

People from the himalayas all the way till pamir have some 'mongoloid' in them. I have no idea why some here jump 20 feet away when mongoloid gets mentioned. LMFAO.
Even I have some mongoloid in me genetically, it shows in a peculiar way on my face and I love it. It feels great when people say I look 1/25 sometimes 1/2 Japanese at times.

They speak Kinnauri which is not Indo-Aryan. Yes, people are still obsessed with the purity narrative I think. This also comes down to us from the Europeans who thought pure Aryans could be found in isolated pockets of North India and Pakistan. In the last post, I attached some pics- a Kinnauri girl, the second and third Brokpa women and the fourth are Kalash girls. I think Brokpa and some Kinnauris (at least the ones in Sangla valley) could be a Kalash type population mixed with neighboring Ladakhi, Lahauli and Tibetans. Apparently the term 'Brokpa' derives from the Tibetan word for Turk. The Ladakhis took the Brokpa to be Turks!

Out of curiosity, where are you from ?

bmoney
08-26-2018, 07:05 AM
They speak Kinnauri which is not Indo-Aryan. Yes, people are still obsessed with the purity narrative I think. This also comes down to us from the Europeans who thought pure Aryans could be found in isolated pockets of North India and Pakistan. In the last post, I attached some pics- a Kinnauri girl, the second and third Brokpa women and the fourth are Kalash girls. I think Brokpa and some Kinnauris (at least the ones in Sangla valley) could be a Kalash type population mixed with neighboring Ladakhi, Lahauli and Tibetans. Apparently the term 'Brokpa' derives from the Tibetan word for Turk. The Ladakhis took the Brokpa to be Turks!

Out of curiosity, where are you from ?

Wow i didnt know Kinnauri was Sino-Tibetan

surbakhunWeesste
08-26-2018, 07:19 AM
They speak Kinnauri which is not Indo-Aryan. Yes, people are still obsessed with the purity narrative I think. This also comes down to us from the Europeans who thought pure Aryans could be found in isolated pockets of North India and Pakistan. In the last post, I attached some pics- a Kinnauri girl, the second and third Brokpa women and the fourth are Kalash girls. I think Brokpa and some Kinnauris (at least the ones in Sangla valley) could be a Kalash type population mixed with neighboring Ladakhi, Lahauli and Tibetans. Apparently the term 'Brokpa' derives from the Tibetan word for Turk. The Ladakhis took the Brokpa to be Turks!

Out of curiosity, where are you from ?


The other story that's really popular all over these areas is the one about descendants of Alexander. From Kalash to Bangani in Uttarakhand to Malana in Himachal, all claim to be descended from Alexander. No idea if this is an urban legend or there is any truth to it.

you probably mean my ethnicity? Afghan Pashtun

Have you come across these people, if yes, can you post your personal opinion on them: their language and culture to be specific.

sudkol
08-26-2018, 07:53 AM
you probably mean my ethnicity? Afghan Pashtun

Have you come across these people, if yes, can you post your personal opinion on them: their language and culture to be specific.

yes, I meant your ethnicity in order to get your comment about your looking half-Japanese.

I've never been to those places nor worked on those languages. But, I know a German linguist who worked on Bangani spoken in the high mountains of Uttarakhand. He claims Bangani spoken in the high mountains of Uttarakhand is a centum language which puts it with Greek as opposed to Indo-Iranian. Kalash-Kafiristan connection to Alexander is a very old one. Rudyard Kipling's novel 'The man who wanted to be king' is based on that legend/belief. In recent times, Michael Wood of BBC made a documentary about Alexander in which he cover this a bit-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqrHumgZyYQ

sudkol
08-26-2018, 07:56 AM
Wow i didnt know Kinnauri was Sino-Tibetan

The classification of Kinnauri is still not clear. There is stratification of language into numerous caste dialects. The dialect spoken by the SCs in all valleys seems to be closer to Munda. The Negi dialect is certainly Sino-Tibetan.

sudkol
08-26-2018, 08:18 AM
you probably mean my ethnicity? Afghan Pashtun

Have you come across these people, if yes, can you post your personal opinion on them: their language and culture to be specific.

Bangani has been claimed to be a centum language which means in words like 'ten', 'doko' in Bangani, you see the /k/ sound rather than /S/ as in other Indo-Aryan languages. All words with /S/ in Indo-Aryan would show up with a /k/. This is the observation that sparked all these claims about discovering the language of the last descendants of Alexander's army and so on. Centum languages are languages like Greek which are found in Europe. All Indo-iranian languages are Satem languages.

Nuristani languages form a distinct subgroup of Indo-Iranian. Linguists think these languages represent a group of early Indo-Aryan people that split from the main group that entered the subcontinent and remained behind. But, they kept migrating in smaller numbers to the east after this early split. Groups like Kalasha, Brokpa are the result of these later migrations.

Perhaps there is a line that connects the dots from Nuristan in Afghanistan to Kalasha and Shin in Chitral, Hunza in Gilgit, Kashmiris, subgroups of Kinnauri and Bangani.

I think Greek contribution must have been pretty widespread rather than these few isolated groups. After all, Indo-Greeks ruled in Balkh for close to three centuries. Most Afghans would have some degree of Greek Balkan ancestry I suppose.

sudkol
08-26-2018, 08:13 PM
I think we need to sample those region to find out if they're related to Dardic people or not. Dardic people like those in Chitral are scoring similar to Pashtuns. Kashmiris are more Indic shifted Dardics & there's a chance these people are related to them (geographically Kashmir is closer to Himachal/Uttarakhand than Chitral). Of course we wouldn't know this until we sample them. It looks like Himalayas was inhabited by various tribes that migrated from both pretty much all directions. It's also possible to have isolated tribes with different genetic makeup to have settled in the Himalayas & not get mixed with others. As for the distance, 600 km is not that significant. My ancestors migrated from Far Western Nepal Hills to Eastern Nepal Hills (which is about 800 km, I believe) in the span of less than 300 years, lol. Who knows if they even migrated from further West right?

Yes, thats what I meant. We need to get dna of Kinnauras from Sangla-Chitkul-Kalpa-Nichaar. I was not making any solid claims, only hinting at a possibility ...

surbakhunWeesste
08-26-2018, 08:46 PM
Bangani has been claimed to be a centum language which means in words like 'ten', 'doko' in Bangani, you see the /k/ sound rather than /S/ as in other Indo-Aryan languages. All words with /S/ in Indo-Aryan would show up with a /k/. This is the observation that sparked all these claims about discovering the language of the last descendants of Alexander's army and so on. Centum languages are languages like Greek which are found in Europe. All Indo-iranian languages are Satem languages.

Nuristani languages form a distinct subgroup of Indo-Iranian. Linguists think these languages represent a group of early Indo-Aryan people that split from the main group that entered the subcontinent and remained behind. But, they kept migrating in smaller numbers to the east after this early split. Groups like Kalasha, Brokpa are the result of these later migrations.

Perhaps there is a line that connects the dots from Nuristan in Afghanistan to Kalasha and Shin in Chitral, Hunza in Gilgit, Kashmiris, subgroups of Kinnauri and Bangani.

I think Greek contribution must have been pretty widespread rather than these few isolated groups. After all, Indo-Greeks ruled in Balkh for close to three centuries. Most Afghans would have some degree of Greek Balkan ancestry I suppose.

Centum languge? I thought it has presence of centum elements. Similar phenomena when some sino-tibetan languages have indo-aryn elements and vice versa. I am aware of Zoller's work.

It's a Garwahli dialect (Indo-Aryan).
I just checked wiki it says, its closer to Tamang language!
IMO, it shouldn't be biggie if centum elements are found in languages there, Greco-Bactrian and Indo Greek Kingdoms flourished in the parts of the continent as well, makes sense how greek inscriptions were imp.

Well Balkh is part of west and east Bactria, it was ruled by Greco-Bactrian not Indo-greeks, though I have read of marriages in texts like Mahabharata.You can find indo-iranian tribes and indo aryan tribes being part of Rigvedic tribes in Rigved mandala 7.You can find Balkh being part of the Rigvedic tribes, imo the difference is Indo-Iranian and Indo-Aryan as we know now.

sudkol
08-26-2018, 08:51 PM
According to this book (https://www.amazon.com/Cultural-History-Western-Trans-Himalayas-Bashahar/dp/8173053529), Kinnaur was annexed by Tibetans in 17th century, by the Nepalese Gorkhas in early 18th century who also conquered Kumaon and Garhwal and by the military general of the king of Kashmir from mid nineteenth century. So, movement of people could have taken place across all these regions leading to interesting genetic admixture.

sudkol
08-26-2018, 10:05 PM
Centum languge? I thought it has presence of centum elements. Similar phenomena when some sino-tibetan languages have indo-aryn elements and vice versa. I am aware of Zoller's work.

It's a Garwahli dialect (Indo-Aryan).
I just checked wiki it says, its closer to Tamang language!
IMO, it shouldn't be biggie if centum elements are found in languages there, Greco-Bactrian and Indo Greek Kingdoms flourished in the parts of the continent as well, makes sense how greek inscriptions were imp.

Well Balkh is part of west and east Bactria, it was ruled by Greco-Bactrian not Indo-greeks, though I have read of marriages in texts like Mahabharata.You can find indo-iranian tribes and indo aryan tribes being part of Rigvedic tribes in Rigved mandala 7.You can find Balkh being part of the Rigvedic tribes, imo the difference is Indo-Iranian and Indo-Aryan as we know now.

Centum languages are those that group palatovelars with velars and retain labiovelars as a distinct class. By contrast, satem languages which include all Indo-Iranian languages as well as Balto-Slavic (and also, possibly Armenian and Albanian) group labiovelars with velars and retain palatovelars as a separate class that are realized as sibilants. The rule of thumb is that if the term for hundred in a language starts with a velar sound /k/, it's a centum language. If it starts with a sibilant /S/ or /s/, it is a Satem language. Obviously, this is an oversimplified presentation of the idea since classification is never based on one lexical item. Also, note that centum-satem distinction runs into problems with extinct Tocharian which was spoken in Tarim Basin turning out to be a centum language. Going into a full discussion of centum-satem is not possible here. But, if Zoller's reported forms are correct and palatovelars merged with velars leading to /k/ sound in the contexts where /s/-/S/ is found in other Indo-Iranian languages, then that would mean Bangani is originally a centum language or at least has a centum substrate. Again, I am not making this claim. I am summarizing my understanding of his work.

Here are two (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehook/bangani.hock.html) more detailed posts (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehook/bangani.abbi2.html) about the Bangani controversy.

Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source especially on ongoing debates. The links I gave above are by reputed scholars in the field, Hans Hock at UIllinois, Anvita Abbi at JNU. If you ask for my opinion, I would say affiliation of Bangani is unknown. Dialect is an abused term in Indian linguistics. Bhojpuri, Magahi, Awadhi and all the Bihari languages are listed as 'dialects' of Hindi.

It's not uncommon for languages to borrow elements from other language families around. But, the pattern of borrowing in a language tells us about the nature of contact with speakers of the source languages. As an example, the pattern of borrowings in Romani tells us about the migration path the Roma people took to reach Europe from India. Based on linguistic evidence, Peter Bakker claims that the ancestors of the Roma left Central India before 400 BC, spent some time in Northern India where they were in contact with speakers of Dardic languages (Kashmiri) up until 1000 CE, and traveled through Iranian speaking areas, Armenia, Caucasus, and then reached Greek speaking territories and began to enter Europe only after 1200 CE.

So, if we claim that centum elements in Bangani could have been borrowed from Greek, we need to have a similar account for the timeline and sequence of these changes. Why were those centum elements borrowed if the language is originally Indo-Iranian ? In other words, you need to fit all the data to the hypothesis. Indo-European is a huge family and any proposal for a change in one language usually has widespread implications for many other languages.

On the question of Greek influence in Balkh, I have little knowledge about history of Balkh. Since you asked me for my opinion about history of these groups claiming Greek heritage, my reply was why just these few groups ? If Greeks or Greek derived populations ruled over vast regions, why would their descendants be confined to only a few valleys ?

Pylsteen
08-26-2018, 10:30 PM
Obviously Bangani is Indo-Iranian. Zollers work is not undisputed. If you look at the numerals, 10 is dosh, following expected satem changes.

surbakhunWeesste
08-26-2018, 10:34 PM
Centum languages are those that group palatovelars with velars and retain labiovelars as a distinct class. By contrast, satem languages which include all Indo-Iranian languages as well as Balto-Slavic (and also, possibly Armenian and Albanian) group labiovelars with velars and retain palatovelars as a separate class that are realized as sibilants. The rule of thumb is that if the term for hundred in a language starts with a velar sound /k/, it's a centum language. If it starts with a sibilant /S/ or /s/, it is a Satem language. Obviously, this is an oversimplified presentation of the idea since classification is never based on one lexical item. Also, note that centum-satem distinction runs into problems with extinct Tocharian which was spoken in Tarim Basin turning out to be a centum language. Going into a full discussion of centum-satem is not possible here. But, if Zoller's reported forms are correct and palatovelars merged with velars leading to /k/ sound in the contexts where /s/-/S/ is found in other Indo-Iranian languages, then that would mean Bangani is originally a centum language or at least has a centum substrate. Again, I am not making this claim. I am summarizing my understanding of his work.

Here are two (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehook/bangani.hock.html) more detailed posts (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehook/bangani.abbi2.html) about the Bangani controversy.

Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source especially on ongoing debates. The links I gave above are by reputed scholars in the field, Hans Hock at UIllinois, Anvita Abbi at JNU. If you ask for my opinion, I would say affiliation of Bangani is unknown. Dialect is an abused term in Indian linguistics. Bhojpuri, Magahi, Awadhi and all the Bihari languages are listed as 'dialects' of Hindi.

It's not uncommon for languages to borrow elements from other language families around. But, the pattern of borrowing in a language tells us about the nature of contact with speakers of the source languages. As an example, the pattern of borrowings in Romani tells us about the migration path the Roma people took to reach Europe from India. Based on linguistic evidence, Peter Bakker claims that the ancestors of the Roma left Central India before 400 BC, spent some time in Northern India where they were in contact with speakers of Dardic languages (Kashmiri) up until 1000 CE, and traveled through Iranian speaking areas, Armenia, Caucasus, and then reached Greek speaking territories and began to enter Europe only after 1200 CE.

So, if we claim that centum elements in Bangani could have been borrowed from Greek, we need to have a similar account for the timeline and sequence of these changes. Why were those centum elements borrowed if the language is originally Indo-Iranian ? In other words, you need to fit all the data to the hypothesis. Indo-European is a huge family and any proposal for a change in one language usually has widespread implications for many other languages.

On the question of Greek influence in Balkh, I have little knowledge about history of Balkh. Since you asked me for my opinion about history of these groups claiming Greek heritage, my reply was why just these few groups ? If Greeks or Greek derived populations ruled over vast regions, why would their descendants be confined to only a few valleys ?

I asked for your personal opinion on Bangani and it's speakers not on groups claiming Greek heritage, since you were in the vicinity, so I assumed perhaps you came across them.

Given human history, that relies on many factors, economy, preference, terrain, companionship to name a few.

Interesting note: Bangani is spoken in UttarKashi, an imp. holy area for Hindus because of the sources of Ganges and Yamuna.

sudkol
08-27-2018, 05:41 AM
Obviously Bangani is Indo-Iranian. Zollers work is not undisputed. If you look at the numerals, 10 is dosh, following expected satem changes.

The word for ten is doko! No one claimed that Zoller's work is undisputed. Read the evaluations of his work by Hock and Abbi I posted earlier. They list a number of words, not just the one for ten or hundred.

sudkol
08-27-2018, 05:46 AM
I asked for your personal opinion on Bangani and it's speakers not on groups claiming Greek heritage, since you were in the vicinity, so I assumed perhaps you came across them.

Given human history, that relies on many factors, economy, preference, terrain, companionship to name a few.

Interesting note: Bangani is spoken in UttarKashi, an imp. holy area for Hindus because of the sources of Ganges and Yamuna.

I mentioned Bangani in the context of Greek heritage. That's why it seemed like you were asking for my opinion on that claim. I don't hold any personal opinions. I go by the facts which I've already listed. I didn't get your reference to where it's spoken. How does it matter where Bangani is spoken ?

sudkol
08-27-2018, 06:32 AM
Obviously Bangani is Indo-Iranian. Zollers work is not undisputed. If you look at the numerals, 10 is dosh, following expected satem changes.

'OnkO 'dead, inanimate; a corpse'. <PIE ank- 'necessity, force'.
'erkE' 'a louse, flea'. <PIE erek- 'louse'. OIA IikSa- 'nit, young Iouse'.
'kOtrO' - 'a fight'. <PIE kat(e)ro- 'a fight'; OIA Satru 'enemy'
kOrsNO 'to rub oneself, to scratch' <PIE kars- 'to scratch'.
dOkO 'ten'. <PIE dek 'ten'. OIA dasa 'ten'.
dOkru 'tear'. <PIE d(r)akru- 'tear'.

These are some examples cited by Abbi who is my main source of data on Bangani apart from Zoller and Van Driem & Sharma. Zoller and Van Driem have fought at times bitterly over this issue and I find it necessary to consult a neutral third party. If you read my earlier comment, centum-satem isogloss breaks down even with Tocharian. Tocharian was the easternmost IE language but it was centum. Even if Bangani is Indo-Iranian, presence of centum elements is a big discovery (as big as Tocharian turning out to be centum)! And substrate level influence is pretty common all over India. Indo-Aryan languages have Dravidian substrates, Dravidian have munda substrates. So, centum elements in Bangani can be attributed to a centum substrate whatever be its origin (Greek or Tocharian). Most Bangani speakers are bilingual and speak Hindi. No surprise if they replace some of these lexical items with Hindi equivalents. This is what Hock and Abbi pointed out two decades ago. Online sources like wikipedia, ethnologue tend to be hand wavy about language issues. Read what encyclopedia britannica says about Bangani- https://www.britannica.com/topic/Indo-Iranian-languages#ref1052597. Cardona cites the evidence minimally, discusses the claim about Bangani being centum and admits that the verdict is still not out.

Pylsteen
08-27-2018, 08:28 AM
'OnkO 'dead, inanimate; a corpse'. <PIE ank- 'necessity, force'.
'erkE' 'a louse, flea'. <PIE erek- 'louse'. OIA IikSa- 'nit, young Iouse'.
'kOtrO' - 'a fight'. <PIE k`at(e)ro~- 'a fight'; OIAs~Sa`tru 'enemy'
kOrsNO 'to rub oneself, to scratch' <PIE kars- 'to scratch'.
dOkO 'ten'. <PIE dek`m~ 'ten'. OIA dasa 'ten'.
dOkru 'tear'. <PIE d(r)akru- 'tear'.

These are some examples cited by Abbi who is my main source of data on Bangani apart from Zoller and Van Driem & Sharma. Zoller and Van Driem have fought at times bitterly over this issue and I find it necessary to consult a neutral third party. If you read my earlier comment, centum-satem isogloss breaks down even with Tocharian. Tocharian was the easternmost IE language but it was centum. Even if Bangani is Indo-Iranian, presence of centum elements is a big discovery (as big as Tocharian turning out to be centum)! And substrate level influence is pretty common all over India. Indo-Aryan languages have Dravidian substrates, Dravidian have munda substrates. So, centum elements in Bangani can be attributed to a centum substrate whatever be its origin (Greek or Tocharian). Most Bangani speakers are bilingual and speak Hindi. No surprise if they replace some of these lexical items with Hindi equivalents. This is what Hock and Abbi pointed out two decades ago. Online sources like wikipedia, ethnologue tend to be hand wavy about language issues. Read what encyclopedia britannica says about Bangani- https://www.britannica.com/topic/Indo-Iranian-languages#ref1052597. Cardona cites the evidence minimally, discusses the claim about Bangani being centum and admits that the verdict is still not out.

I got the reading for 10 as dɔś from Van Driem, who is very critical of Zoller, so we have a problem there with that word. Good to see a third party indeed. Still, I found Van Driem interesting. His overview of the language is here in this article (http://www.himalayanlanguages.org/files/driem/pdfs/1997Bangani2.pdf).
Bangani can be considered as an Indo-Iranian language, and must thus be satem as a result. This can be seen from many vocabulary items listed by Van Driem, such as śetɔ “white”, śing- “horn”, śɔ “hundred”, zimi “land, earth”.

Still, the question is whether Bangani contains a group of words that must stem from a centum-substrate. The most interesting form IMO that Zoller provides is dOkru- "tear", it does not just contain a velar but also an initial d, which is very western. It doesn't occur in Sanskrit áśru-, Lithuanian ašarŕ, and also not in Tocharian A ākär.
But then Van Driem assumes here (http://www.himalayanlanguages.org/files/driem/pdfs/1996Bangani1.pdf) that it actually reads dukhru and must be related to Bangani dukh "woe".

About the centum-satem-isogloss itself: it is very important to take into account the structure of the Indo-European language tree in order to answer the question when it has to be dated. Besides Tocharian, Hittite is centum-like too, but in the case of Hittite, it must have developed independently within Anatolian, since Luwian developed satem-like developments. This means that when Anatolian had split off from the rest of Indo-European, the centum-satem-isogloss was not yet present. Tocharian is generally assumed to be the second branch to split off from the rest. If the centum-satem-isogloss had not yet occurred by then, it may have developed the velars like the centum-languages independently (and why not, it had numerous changes by itself in its language). If the centum-satem-divide occurred when Tocharian had not yet split off, the fact that a centum-language was spoken so far east is not problematic when the centum-satem-isogloss is interpreted as a centre-periphery phenomenon instead of a west-east divide. However, the problem with a centre-periphery model is that generally the centre is innovative and the periphery is archaic. This would mean that satemization was an innovation but centumization an archaism. But this can't be true, since at least in Hittite centumization was an innovation too. Therefore, I conclude (at least for myself) that the centum-satem-divide was still a west-east-divide that occurred after Anatolian and Tocharian had split off, and that those branches had their own developments.

sudkol
08-27-2018, 10:25 AM
I got the reading for 10 as dɔś from Van Driem, who is very critical of Zoller, so we have a problem there with that word. Good to see a third party indeed. Still, I found Van Driem interesting. His overview of the language is here in this article (http://www.himalayanlanguages.org/files/driem/pdfs/1997Bangani2.pdf).
Bangani can be considered as an Indo-Iranian language, and must thus be satem as a result. This can be seen from many vocabulary items listed by Van Driem, such as śetɔ “white”, śing- “horn”, śɔ “hundred”, zimi “land, earth”.

Still, the question is whether Bangani contains a group of words that must stem from a centum-substrate. The most interesting form IMO that Zoller provides is dOkru- "tear", it does not just contain a velar but also an initial d, which is very western. It doesn't occur in Sanskrit áśru-, Lithuanian ašarŕ, and also not in Tocharian A ākär.
But then Van Driem assumes here (http://www.himalayanlanguages.org/files/driem/pdfs/1996Bangani1.pdf) that it actually reads dukhru and must be related to Bangani dukh "woe".

About the centum-satem-isogloss itself: it is very important to take into account the structure of the Indo-European language tree in order to answer the question when it has to be dated. Besides Tocharian, Hittite is centum-like too, but in the case of Hittite, it must have developed independently within Anatolian, since Luwian developed satem-like developments. This means that when Anatolian had split off from the rest of Indo-European, the centum-satem-isogloss was not yet present. Tocharian is generally assumed to be the second branch to split off from the rest. If the centum-satem-isogloss had not yet occurred by then, it may have developed the velars like the centum-languages independently (and why not, it had numerous changes by itself in its language). If the centum-satem-divide occurred when Tocharian had not yet split off, the fact that a centum-language was spoken so far east is not problematic when the centum-satem-isogloss is interpreted as a centre-periphery phenomenon instead of a west-east divide. However, the problem with a centre-periphery model is that generally the centre is innovative and the periphery is archaic. This would mean that satemization was an innovation but centumization an archaism. But this can't be true, since at least in Hittite centumization was an innovation too. Therefore, I conclude (at least for myself) that the centum-satem-divide was still a west-east-divide that occurred after Anatolian and Tocharian had split off, and that those branches had their own developments.

Now, we are talking! Centum-Satem classification is a very complex topic and it is not as simple as looking up wikipedia or ethnologue. That's why I wrote all those lengthy comments earlier. You are delving into the details which is good.

Yes, Van Driem and Sharma in an earlier paper 'In search of kentum Indo-Europeans in the Himalayas' quash all of Zoller's fifteen proposed centum forms. I read that paper years ago and took a look just now. It's a really acrimonious paper with Van Driem accusing Zoller of spreading lies about Bangani being xenophobic at the VII Sanskrit conference at Leiden and also accusing Zoller's informant of lying about the data. In any case, if Van Driem is correct, then Bangani is satem like all other neighboring languages and there is nothing to discuss. If it is not, then there is something interesting to say about how these centum forms got into the language. Is it Greek influence or Tocharian influence ? What's the timeline of this influence ? And so on. FYI I am not on Zoller's side. I am still open to considering this more interesting hypothesis.

There is a lot to respond in what you said about centum-satem. Of course, Anatolian is accepted as having all three series of stops as PIE. It is accepted as the first outgroup of IE. Hittite is another beast altogether and I have no clue about it. Hittite centumization is either an innovation or an areal phenomenon. Can you give me the reference to Luwian being Satem ? Tocharian is again very interesting but also very complicated since it's extinct and much depends on how the script is read. Tocharian A and B seem to differ in the aksharas they had for labiovelars. If Tocharian and Hittite chose centumization independently, then we still need an account of how lexical items in these languages compare to the ones in European centum languages. As a rule of thumb, the fewer the number of independent developments, the better the reconstructed phylogeny. This is the maximum parsimony criterion. All of this tells me that centum-satem is not a reliable genetic isogloss (similar to your conclusion about east-west isogloss, which I didn't understand btw, did you mean areal effect ? Your terminology of center-periphery is reminiscent of diffusion models). There are other innovations shared by languages on opposing sides of the centum-satem boundary.

Pylsteen
08-27-2018, 11:11 AM
There is a lot to respond in what you said about centum-satem. Of course, Anatolian is accepted as having all three series of stops as PIE. It is accepted as the first outgroup of IE. Hittite is another beast altogether and I have no clue about it. Hittite centumization is either an innovation or an areal phenomenon. Can you give me the reference to Luwian being Satem ? Tocharian is again very interesting but also very complicated since it's extinct and much depends on how the script is read. Tocharian A and B seem to differ in the aksharas they had for labiovelars. If Tocharian and Hittite chose centumization independently, then we still need an account of how lexical items in these languages compare to the ones in European centum languages. As a rule of thumb, the fewer the number of independent developments, the better the reconstructed phylogeny. This is the maximum parsimony criterion. All of this tells me that centum-satem is not a reliable genetic isogloss (similar to your conclusion about east-west isogloss, which I didn't understand btw, did you mean areal effect ? Your terminology of center-periphery is reminiscent of diffusion models). There are other innovations shared by languages on opposing sides of the centum-satem boundary.

Luwian palatalized the palatovelars into z (ts), which is reminiscent of satem-languages. It did however keep the labiovelars (Luwian kui- "who"); for examples see e.g. the Hittite dictionary from Kloekhorst (2008); Melchert has articles too. Although within satem-languages labiovelars eventually ended up as neutral velars, some of their effects are also seen in satem-languages, e.g. Lithuanian ugněs “fire” < *ungni- < *(H)n̥gwni-, that contains /u/ instead of normal /i/, can only be explained if labialization was still present when the syllabic resonant n̥ became vocalic /Vn/.

If one assumes that the centum-satem-divide took place after both Anatolian and Tocharian had departed from the rest, it looks a bit areal. In the "west", all palatovelars were depalatalized, in the "east" they probably turned into /tś/ or similar. Indo-Iranian is the most satem-branch. Within Balto-Slavic, Armenian and Albanian there are some instances of depalatalization before resonants that lack in Indo-Iranian (except before *r if no i followed; e.g. Skt. krátu- "force" vs. śrī- "beauty", see for example Kloekhorst article (http://www.kloekhorst.nl/KloekhorstWeisesLaw.pdf)). This depalatalization obviously preceded the satemization. It is of course interesting that the satemization occurred in the same area as the "ruki rule". Although these are not directly connected to each other, they both involve a tendency to palatalization.

sudkol
08-27-2018, 11:48 AM
Luwian palatalized the palatovelars into z (ts), which is reminiscent of satem-languages. It did however keep the labiovelars (Luwian kui- "who"); for examples see e.g. the Hittite dictionary from Kloekhorst (2008); Melchert has articles too. Although within satem-languages labiovelars eventually ended up as neutral velars, some of their effects are also seen in satem-languages, e.g. Lithuanian ugněs “fire” < *ungni- < *(H)n̥gwni-, that contains /u/ instead of normal /i/, can only be explained if labialization was still present when the syllabic resonant n̥ became vocalic /Vn/.

If one assumes that the centum-satem-divide took place after both Anatolian and Tocharian had departed from the rest, it looks a bit areal. In the "west", all palatovelars were depalatalized, in the "east" they probably turned into /tś/ or similar. Indo-Iranian is the most satem-branch. Within Balto-Slavic, Armenian and Albanian there are some instances of depalatalization before resonants that lack in Indo-Iranian (except before *r if no i followed; e.g. Skt. krátu- "force" vs. śrī- "beauty", see for example Kloekhorst article (http://www.kloekhorst.nl/KloekhorstWeisesLaw.pdf)). This depalatalization obviously preceded the satemization. It is of course interesting that the satemization occurred in the same area as the "ruki rule". Although these are not directly connected to each other, they both involve a tendency to palatalization.

If Luwian retained the labiovelars, then it's not really satemization right ? I've seen Melchert's stuff on Anatolian, haven't read them.

I think ruki rule and palatovelars interact since palatovelars are realized as sibilants in Indo-Iranian. Ruki rule is also related to development of retroflex sounds in Sanskrit, something I am personally interested in. About the centum-satem divide, Tocharian was also in prolonged contact with Indic. So not clear why the areal effect doesn't apply there.

DMXX
08-27-2018, 08:00 PM
Finally found the thread you mentioned discussing this topic, sudkol:


Who is this linguist who ruled out Greek ? I was typing off on this issue on a separate thread yesterday lol

An American linguist, specialises in Latin, asked for their opinion on the Bangani words as an aside, didn't have a firm opinion (other than the words "clearly representing a Centum IE strata"). They kindly messaged back a week later after speaking to an associate of theirs who specialises in Greek, who felt an "unacceptably large" number of the basic lexicon in Abbi's survey (those less likely to being mutable) were ostensibly different from Koine/Hellenistic Greek.

I did some looking into the matter myself, and it's not particularly clear. A couple examples (in order; Bangani (English), Attic Greek, TochB ):

Dokru (tear) - Dakru, Akru (AG > TochB )
Dukti (daughter) - Thugater/Kori, Tkacer (neither look close - This is actually a full cognate with Lithuanian, dukte!)
Porko (ask/question) - Erotidis (something asked) / Dogos (subject under question) / Aiteo (demand), Park (TochB > AG)
Doko (ten) - Deka, Sak (AG > TochB )
Kotia (hundred) - Ekaton, Kante (AG and TochB look equally close)
Korsno (scratch) - Knin/?Knisiks, Kars (TochB > AG)
Kopo (hoof) - ?D'pli/Dili, Kolyi (TochB > AG)

For reference, Bangani word list (Abbi) (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~pehook/bangani.abbi2.html), Woodhouse Attic Greek dictionary, (https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/efts/Woodhouse/) Adams Tocharian B dictionary (https://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/natlang/ie/tochB.html).

Three caveats in advance:
1) I am aware that sound laws have to be permitted, but this is just a rough lay comparison between the words.
2) Couldn't find a reliable Ancient Macedonian dictionary. That would be preferable.
3) Ditto for Tocharian A, though there appears to be less material regarding it than B online.

sudkol
08-27-2018, 08:28 PM
Who is that linguist ? I am a linguist too trained in the US. Zoller is ambivalent about the source of centum layer in Bangani. It need not have been ancient Greek which was the standard. It could have been some centum dialect spoken by the common soldiery. The other source for centum in Bangani, as you point out, could have been Tocharian or some dialect of it. I wanted to know if this linguist is disputing the fact that these elements are centum or just saying that the source can't be Attic Greek.

DMXX
08-27-2018, 08:44 PM
Excellent, glad to have more formally-trained linguists within our community.


I wanted to know if this linguist is disputing the fact that these elements are centum or just saying that the source can't be Attic Greek.

Anyone with a cursory knowledge of IE would recognise these words as belonging to the Centum isogloss, so I'd strongly doubt the Greek specialist (the Latin linguist didn't provide a name) would argue these words aren't Centum IE - Said specialist was apparently unconvinced that the words are cleanly from Koine Greek and an "unacceptably large" number of the basic vocab deviated too greatly from it.

I have no experience whatsoever with the Greek branch. Could be possible that another Ancient Greek dialect with a markedly different vocabulary contributed these terms to Bangani? Perhaps Koine Greek contains more Linear B terms and the dialects spoken in rural areas (or among the Ancient Macedonians) contained more proto-Greek descent terms?

Might be worth directly reaching out to a linguist with a special interest in Greek for their take.

DMXX
08-28-2018, 04:53 PM
I've just emailed three senior linguists with current (or prior) expertise in Ancient Greek regarding their opinions on these words.

Looking forward to their responses!

surbakhunWeesste
08-29-2018, 02:10 AM
I mentioned Bangani in the context of Greek heritage. 1.That's why it seemed like you were asking for my opinion on that claim. I don't hold any personal opinions. 2.I go by the facts which I've already listed. I didn't get your reference to where it's spoken. 3.How does it matter where Bangani is spoken ?

1. It's interesting you assumed.
2. How are they facts, they are just findings/figures and that can change with time, it's not something like the sun is there, which is a fact.
Isn't it a human trait to have an opinion, it's called a/n hunch/intuition, imo, it's great to rely on it, makes one less of robot.
3. Reread what I wrote,"Interesting note: Bangani is spoken in UttarKashi, an imp. holy area for Hindus because of the sources of Ganges and Yamuna."
Not everyone here knows where it's spoken, therefore, I wrote it as a trivia. Anyway, it's relevant in many ways.

sudkol
08-29-2018, 06:32 AM
1. It's interesting you assumed.
2. How are they facts, they are just findings/figures and that can change with time, it's not something like the sun is there, which is a fact.
Isn't it a human trait to have an opinion, it's called a/n hunch/intuition, imo, it's great to rely on it, makes one less of robot.
3. Reread what I wrote,"Interesting note: Bangani is spoken in UttarKashi, an imp. holy area for Hindus because of the sources of Ganges and Yamuna."
Not everyone here knows where it's spoken, therefore, I wrote it as a trivia. Anyway, it's relevant in many ways.

Ok! I am not familiar with your definition of facts/findings/figures and do not want to "assume" things again. Language data to me is a fact like data about height of individuals in a group. It's a quantifiable variable based on which languages can be classified. Bangani has centum elements which have been cited as evidence to propose a centum origin or a centum substrate for the language. I know the literature in this area and it's clear to me by now you are not a linguist. So, end of discussion as far as I am concerned. Nothing personal here. Cheers

Amber29
12-25-2018, 09:14 PM
Being from chakwal and living in the potohar...I know chakwali accent is very different is abit mixed- Potohari/seraiki/hindko involved (i understand it but i dont speak the language been bought up in the west). we use words like mendha/medha (me/mine) - im abit curious for the region I live in what is the dialect?? ...... not sure if this is the right group to discuss....(all i read was regional language discussion) xD is there anyone who can relate to me? :unsure: ........

MonkeyDLuffy
12-25-2018, 11:30 PM
Being from chakwal and living in the potohar...I know chakwali accent is very different is abit mixed- Potohari/seraiki/hindko involved (i understand it but i dont speak the language been bought up in the west). we use words like mendha/medha (me/mine) - im abit curious for the region I live in what is the dialect?? ...... not sure if this is the right group to discuss....(all i read was regional language discussion) xD is there anyone who can relate to me? :unsure: ........

Reminds me of verse from Rahiras, "TU KARTA SACHIAR MAENDA SAAEE (Waheguruji, You are the Creator of everything, You are ever existent, You are my Master)".

Not surprising since Guru Granth Sahib is composed of works of a lot of scholars from different regions.

Amber29
12-26-2018, 01:03 AM
Reminds me of verse from Rahiras, "TU KARTA SACHIAR MAENDA SAAEE (Waheguruji, You are the Creator of everything, You are ever existent, You are my Master)".

Not surprising since Guru Granth Sahib is composed of works of a lot of scholars from different regions.

I have no idea lol - never heard of the verse either lol! just in search for someone who knows dialects XD

According to another website i read it sounds more closer to hindko but some words are picked seraiki its like a melting pot.....

MonkeyDLuffy
12-26-2018, 02:29 AM
I have no idea lol - never heard of the verse either lol! just in search for someone who knows dialects XD

According to another website i read it sounds more closer to hindko but some words are picked seraiki its like a melting pot.....

Of course, unless you've been to gurudwara you won't know lol. I know whole Rahiras and Japji sahib paath thanks to my strict mom.

I know about east Punjab dialects. Bolnat probably knows more about west punjabi dialects.

Amber29
12-26-2018, 12:24 PM
Of course, unless you've been to gurudwara you won't know lol. I know whole Rahiras and Japji sahib paath thanks to my strict mom.

I know about east Punjab dialects. Bolnat probably knows more about west punjabi dialects.

True that! Lol at the 'thanks to my strict mom'... we wouldnt know the things we do if they didnt push us! lol

khanabadoshi
12-26-2018, 01:30 PM
Amber, how do you say the following:

Mine = Meh(n)da
Yours (informal) =
Yours (formal) =
Ours =
Theirs =

I =
Me =
You (informal) =
You (formal) =
We =
Us =
Them =


I'm pretty sure your manner of speech will be more close to Hindko, ie. pronunciation; but the words maybe more mixed up. MehdAH is used in Saraiki for 'mine', but the last part is this implosive sound. So when you hear someone speak you can tell pretty quickly just from the sound of the word what they are speaking. Sometimes, in the dialects/languages, the words are all the same, but intelligibility can be lost because the pronunciation of the words is very different. Chakwali accent/dialect seem to vary a lot based on what little exposure I have to it. Sometimes they sound very Saraiki to me, especially folk songs. However, certain elements will give it away: like preference to use ho instead of thee; ie. hosi v. theesi for "it will"; pronouns usually prefer Hindko/Punjabi variants (but they do use Saraiki variants too); sometimes they will use Saraiki verb but conjugate the verb as if in Punjabi or vice versa. On the last point, I think that is more likely to help for rhyming in couplets and such and not as noticeable in regular speech. However, I actually think the rhyming aspect is an important factor in how language is shaped in Punjab overall, because poetry and verses took elements from different regions so that they could keep a certain meaning and still maintain a rhyme; poetry in turn really helped to standardize many dialects/languages.

Amber29
12-26-2018, 02:38 PM
Amber, how do you say the following:

Mine = Meh(n)da
Yours (informal) =
Yours (formal) =
Ours =
Theirs =


I =
Me =
You (informal) =
You (formal) =
We =
Us =
Them =

I'm pretty sure your manner of speech will be more close to Hindko, ie. pronunciation; but the words maybe more mixed up. MehdAH is used in Saraiki for 'mine', but the last part is this implosive sound. So when you hear someone speak you can tell pretty quickly just from the sound of the word what they are speaking. Sometimes, in the dialects/languages, the words are all the same, but intelligibility can be lost because the pronunciation of the words is very different. Chakwali accent/dialect seem to vary a lot based on what little exposure I have to it. Sometimes they sound very Saraiki to me, especially folk songs. However, certain elements will give it away: like preference to use ho instead of thee; ie. hosi v. theesi for "it will"; pronouns usually prefer Hindko/Punjabi variants (but they do use Saraiki variants too); sometimes they will use Saraiki verb but conjugate the verb as if in Punjabi or vice versa. On the last point, I think that is more likely to help for rhyming in couplets and such and not as noticeable in regular speech. However, I actually think the rhyming aspect is an important factor in how language is shaped in Punjab overall, because poetry and verses took elements from different regions so that they could keep a certain meaning and still maintain a rhyme; poetry in turn really helped to standardize many dialects/languages.

makes sense...
I am not sure but there are words like You (tenda) or like who (kenda) and then gin - vanj (take it ) (gidden if that how you spell it which i THINK it means - did you get it or pick up) lol and then there is another word we use like tusaan and asaan - sometimes the word also tusi comes in to it but less often.

Bolenden - saying
Karenden- do it

There so many words and I get confused what language the chakwali dialects belong too lol I know friends and family who are from Mandi bahauddin and east punjab sometimes even struggle to understand us....

there not much i can research on the chakwali dialect or see history behind it which is why i am asking to gain knowledge on here... you guys seem to know your lots stuff and ever so helpful.

khanabadoshi
12-27-2018, 06:03 AM
makes sense...
I am not sure but there are words like You (tenda) or like who (kenda) and then gin - vanj (take it ) (gidden if that how you spell it which i THINK it means - did you get it or pick up) lol and then there is another word we use like tusaan and asaan - sometimes the word also tusi comes in to it but less often.

Bolenden - saying
Karenden- do it

There so many words and I get confused what language the chakwali dialects belong too lol I know friends and family who are from Mandi bahauddin and east punjab sometimes even struggle to understand us....

there not much i can research on the chakwali dialect or see history behind it which is why i am asking to gain knowledge on here... you guys seem to know your lots stuff and ever so helpful.


Ghin/W(V)anjh are Saraiki verbs, Ghin is "to take", W(V)anjh is "to go". Urdu equivalent is Ley Jao. You may also use Chhah Wanj. So I'm guessing you have a strong shift that way.
With Giddi'n you are also conjugating like Saraiki, the last letter is telling who the subject is. This is unique to Saraiki. Giddi'n? means "Did you bring"? You will see these pronoun endings for lots of verbs. ie. -'m, -'s, -'n, etc...
If you use these type of rules for lots of verbs then your area is speaking a dialect strongly shifted towards Saraiki.

The use of the pronouns at the end of a verb means in speech we don't state the pronoun/subject in the beginning of the sentence. So even though you may use a Punjabi verb, a Punjabi speaker will get confused as to who the subject of the verb is, because we didn't say "tussan" or "mein" or whatever first. ie. wanjhr'ym or vayndapiy'm are complete sentences meaning "I am going". If I change the end to a "'s" it means "they are going". I didn't have to write assan or tussan or whatever first.

Amber29
12-27-2018, 12:52 PM
Ghin/W(V)anjh are Saraiki verbs, Ghin is "to take", W(V)anjh is "to go". Urdu equivalent is Ley Jao. You may also use Chhah Wanj. So I'm guessing you have a strong shift that way.
With Giddi'n you are also conjugating like Saraiki, the last letter is telling who the subject is. This is unique to Saraiki. Giddi'n? means "Did you bring"? You will see these pronoun endings for lots of verbs. ie. -'m, -'s, -'n, etc...
If you use these type of rules for lots of verbs then your area is speaking a dialect strongly shifted towards Saraiki.

The use of the pronouns at the end of a verb means in speech we don't state the pronoun/subject in the beginning of the sentence. So even though you may use a Punjabi verb, a Punjabi speaker will get confused as to who the subject of the verb is, because we didn't say "tussan" or "mein" or whatever first. ie. wanjhr'ym or vayndapiy'm are complete sentences meaning "I am going". If I change the end to a "'s" it means "they are going". I didn't have to write assan or tussan or whatever first.

this is so interesting i think it may have alot to do with mianwali because they speak seraiki (two and half hours away from my grahn) I know a guy he is a niazi pathan and even the tone was similar, But this is very hmmmm, there like a whole influx of different words. But the words are part hindko too i think....

is hindko and seraiki similar in words?

....I know how it sounds I wish I could show a video but they are personal videos lol but i do think the influence we have isnt as strong as southern punjab for sure..... you will know how to write it better i just write it informally how i think on top of my head.

i know one word that ends in s pronoun is the Gaio's (to go)
i can actually relate to the the pronoun endings... i know words that end like that...

how did that reach to potohar??.. I have no clue LOL.

Reza
12-27-2018, 03:16 PM
I don't know if this will work, but this is an audio clip of a Potohari speaking friend commenting on your post khana. He's from Gujarkhan.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12-xe_PG1wCGVcS4J6ZRK6HpUj_GJvEU3/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DXaPTpJLwsfAnpjwPyZukw9EhM1QPLhU/view?usp=drivesdk

khanabadoshi
12-27-2018, 03:21 PM
I don't know if this will work, but this is an audio clip of a Potohari speaking friend commenting on your post khana. He's from Gujarkhan.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12-xe_PG1wCGVcS4J6ZRK6HpUj_GJvEU3/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DXaPTpJLwsfAnpjwPyZukw9EhM1QPLhU/view?usp=drivesdk

I will give it a listen when I get a chance.

EDIT: Gave it a listen. Very similar. For me the give away is ghini-'s part; the -ee/i sound is a trait more Punjabi-shifted to add in a verb. However, if I was talking to someone from the north, I would probably assume they are using ghin to mean "to count", not as used further south, "to take". However, I believe the true meaning for both is "to collect/gather". ie. when we are telling someone to count money or to bring something and we use the verb ghin, in both instances we are actually saying, "collect it". Context would tell me if you are meaning to count or to get/take/bring. So I suppose ghin is even shared with Urdu/Hindi ultimately.

In the Landha group of langauges (which would include Potohari and Saraiki), I believe there are some shared elements from Dardic languages. I believe this is why there is a certain level of intelligibility between them to the exclusion of standard Punjabi. However, in practical terms, I had great difficultly understanding Potohari or Pahari when I was in Rawalpindi/Islamabad. It might be because of the speed at which it is spoken or the accent.

I would say many of the words that are used in Pahari/Potohari that aren't used in Punjabi are used in Saraiki and Hindko as well. However, the amount of unique words varies in each of these languages.

Hindko is essentially mutually intelligible for a Saraiki-speaker for the most part, but I would say it prefers to conjugate more like standard Punjabi and will have more usage of some Pashto words. Everything more north, tends to favor some elements of standard Punjabi, while every dialect/language more south will favor Sindhi elements. However, Hindko has far less unique elements relative to Saraiki in relation to Punjabi; so while a Saraiki speaker understands most things in Hindko, and a Hindko speaker will understand a lot of Saraiki, the Hindko speaker will struggle a lot more.

Honestly, I'm going off recollections and old memories talking on all of this. I should probably listen to some videos and see what I understand and don't, or what sounds more "Punjabi" or "Saraiki" to me and what doesn't.

Amber29
12-27-2018, 03:30 PM
I don't know if this will work, but this is an audio clip of a Potohari speaking friend commenting on your post khana. He's from Gujarkhan.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12-xe_PG1wCGVcS4J6ZRK6HpUj_GJvEU3/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DXaPTpJLwsfAnpjwPyZukw9EhM1QPLhU/view?usp=drivesdk

he is right very interesting my childhood friends are from gujarkhan and my neighbours (they related lol) they speak like that.... we dont live that far from gujar khan but accent is still different by not alot.... I am familiar with the words.

agent_lime
12-27-2018, 05:31 PM
I heard the first clip. Very similar to my pGrandparents or when my dad's siblings talk to each other. Ghinya I've been hearing since I was a kid.

Edit: Had my dad listen to Hindko. He can make out what's going on roughly. Every now and then I can get a few words. Also he recognized that it was spoken North of Rawalpindi, had some Pashto like words mixed he said.

https://youtu.be/BQ-EqsfcG6k

Amber29
12-27-2018, 05:56 PM
I heard the first clip. Very similar to my pGrandparents or when my dad's siblings talk to each other. Ghinya I've been hearing since I was a kid.

Edit: Had my dad listen to Hindko. He can make out what's going on roughly. Every now and then I can get a few words. Also he recognized that it was spoken North of Rawalpindi, had some Pashto like words mixed he said.

https://youtu.be/BQ-EqsfcG6k

sounds like the way my mums other friends speaks and few family friends that I know of, reminds me of them. Im just going to guess mine is a hell of a mixture of these accents/dialects haha!

MonkeyDLuffy
12-27-2018, 07:20 PM
I don't know if this will work, but this is an audio clip of a Potohari speaking friend commenting on your post khana. He's from Gujarkhan.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12-xe_PG1wCGVcS4J6ZRK6HpUj_GJvEU3/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DXaPTpJLwsfAnpjwPyZukw9EhM1QPLhU/view?usp=drivesdk

He should make some asmr videos lol.

khanabadoshi
12-27-2018, 10:34 PM
Listen to this, the accents may throw you off, but I think you guys maybe able to understand a good deal of it. This is what I would consider pretty normal Saraiki.
I'll find some other videos, because older men can be harder to understand.




https://youtu.be/n4IUd53FtVU

EDIT: Found another with younger guys, should be easier to understand. Much better quality as well. Video is more interesting even if you don't understand it.



https://youtu.be/WzAPm7NnxvA

Amber29
12-27-2018, 11:12 PM
Listen to this, the accents may throw you off, but I think you guys maybe able to understand a good deal of it. This is what I would consider pretty normal Saraiki.
I'll find some other videos, because older men can be harder to understand.



EDIT: Found another with younger guys, should be easier to understand. Much better quality as well. Video is more interesting even if you don't understand it.




that is something I would call proper seraiki I understand the younger group version better than the elder one i can notice the difference in the tone of the language too lol at the tibdeeli in the marriage talks ........ love the kid dancing in the background too lol

the bashira name made me laugh reminds me of this the first part of the video (i shouldnt laugh i know its a name) lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH9E6G-Sogc

Overall the language overlap is interesting.... some parts of the seraikistan was part of the bigger sindh in the old days maybe due to this it is the biggest language within landha punjab?

khanabadoshi
12-27-2018, 11:25 PM
that is something I would call proper seraiki I understand the younger group version better than the elder one i can notice the difference in the tone of the language too lol at the tibdeeli in the marriage talks ........ love the kid dancing in the background too lol

the bashira name made me laugh reminds me of this the first part of the video (i shouldnt laugh i know its a name) lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH9E6G-Sogc

Overall the language overlap is interesting.... some parts of the seraikistan was part of the bigger sindh in the old days maybe due to this it is the biggest language within landha punjab?

OMG that video is hilarious hahahaaahah

Kart
12-28-2018, 05:11 AM
"Touch me not Bashiraa" .. lol

Saraiki and Hindko sound so similar to Punjabi :)

MonkeyDLuffy
12-28-2018, 06:49 AM
"Touch me not Bashiraa" .. lol

Saraiki and Hindko sound so similar to Punjabi :)

They're sister languages. Some people consider them dialects of Punjabi but imo they've a separate identity.

khanabadoshi
12-28-2018, 02:32 PM
"Touch me not Bashiraa" .. lol

Saraiki and Hindko sound so similar to Punjabi :)


They're sister languages. Some people consider them dialects of Punjabi but imo they've a separate identity.

I'll post an example of Sindhi and Eastern dialect of Balochi in a bit. Maybe you guys will hear how the accents bleed into each other.
In the Saraiki videos the older men are speaking a different dialect from the younger. My family speaks like the older guys, the accent of which I think bleeds into eastern hill dialect of Balochi. The more southwest you go, the less nasalization in Saraiki, it becomes very heavily spoken from the chest (which is very difficult for me at least, because you expel a lot of air when making a sound). The younger guy speaks something between Multani and Riasiti dialect. Other guys are speaking Riasiti. He is Rajput, while some of the other people in the video are Baloch. I assume he lives between Multan and Bahawalpur, east of me. The older guys are closer to me, but unlikely from as west as DG Khan. I would guess they are just to the north or south of me.

Hindko accents bleed considerably into Pashto (which I think is obvious from the video that was posted), but the eastern variants maintain some more tonality like Punjabi.
EDIT:



Sindhi. The guys speaking Sindhi are Baloch. If you can get past the "-o" endings of many of the words, you will start to understand some of it, if you understand Punjabi. You will also hear how Saraiki is incorporating some of the elements. I think the Pahari/Potohari speakers will hear somethings they understand too. There are a lot more unique words but I think the biggest challenge to get over is the accent.


https://youtu.be/tbo4-zKjoRA

Balochi (for me the accent is similar enough to an accent spoken to the west of the older men in the Saraiki video, that it took me a few seconds to realize he was speaking Balochi not Saraiki) You may notice the "melody" of speech is very similar, going up and down, with peculiar stressing/emphasis of words in the middle of the sentence.


https://youtu.be/gR3gZ3y4zD4

EDIT: The old guy speaks a very tiny sentence in Saraiki in the middle, and he curses somewhat often as well in Saraiki. In case you hear it. I'm guessing this is a Baloch from tribal area of DG Khan.




The Balochi dialects have wildly different accents, meaning if you just hear the three main ones next to each other, you may not know that the same language was spoken. I would say it's like comparing American English, British English, and Scottish accents. If you had no familiarity with English, they may all sound like different languages to you.

I'll find some examples later.

In a way, the Indo-Aryan language are just one large dialect continuum, because Sindhi just becomes more and more like Saraiki as you go north, and Saraiki just becomes more and more like Punjabi, and Punjabi becomes more and more like Hindi as you go east. Etc. If you walked the Indus River, you'd probably just not notice as the words change slightly and the accents every 20 miles.

I think the accents or manner-of-speech crosses the Indo-Aryan/Indo-Iranian divide. The way a language/dialect is pronounced or spoken is influenced heavily by the neighboring languages/dialects.

PS: Much of what I wrote are my own observations, and my observations maybe incorrect. My parents can hear accents and dialects WAY better than me. They can point out where someone is from in Southern Punjab (and a lot of Pakistan tbh) by their accents in Urdu! If I showed either video to my Father or Uncles they would know exactly where these guys are from probably. I am not nearly as well-acquainted.

parasar
12-28-2018, 06:10 PM
...

In a way, the Indo-Aryan language are just one large dialect continuum, because Sindhi just becomes more and more like Saraiki as you go north, and Saraiki just becomes more and more like Punjabi, and Punjabi becomes more and more like Hindi as you go east. Etc. If you walked the Indus River, you'd probably just not notice as the words change slightly and the accents every 20 miles.

I think the accents or manner-of-speech crosses the Indo-Aryan/Indo-Iranian divide. The way a language/dialect is pronounced or spoken is influenced heavily by the neighboring languages/dialects ...

I think so too. Though if you move a sufficient distance the dialects become mutually unintelligible and bunching occurs. Nevertheless, the differentiation seems to be pretty young.

There are also counter movements, which establish uniformity.
We see evidence of this in the Asok period where his Pali is close across the board. We see that with Hindi/Hindawi (Khusrau) in the Islamic period, and then during the independence period the rise of Hindi and Urdu.

agent_lime
12-28-2018, 06:25 PM
I think so too. Though if you move a sufficient distance the dialects become mutually unintelligible and bunching occurs. Nevertheless, the differentiation seems to be pretty young.

There are also counter movements, which establish uniformity.
We see evidence of this in the Asok period where his Pali is close across the board. We see that with Hindi/Hindawi (Khusrau) in the Islamic period, and then during the independence period the rise of Hindi and Urdu.

Hindi speakers from UP will have trouble with Sareki, Hindko, Sidhi about the same if they aren't exposed to it. As a second generation migrant I can't get what's fully going on. I could pick it up with practice, same as trying to pick up Marathi, or Bengali.

parasar
12-28-2018, 06:49 PM
Hindi speakers from UP will have trouble with Sareki, Hindko, Sidhi about the same if they aren't exposed to it. As a second generation migrant I can't get what's fully going on. I could pick it up with practice, same as trying to pick up Marathi, or Bengali.

Exactly, the distance/difference becomes too much. But give it a few months, and one starts getting the gist. For me Konkani gives problems understanding. It supposedly has elements of Marathi, Bangali, and Maithili, but these three I find easier to understand.

parasar
11-03-2019, 10:25 PM
This is a totally new way of imagining things for me - I will try to learn more about the Mo-ho-la-ch'a situation later but what I have in mind currently is the distribution of the Pre-Telugu and Pre-Kannada languages in the Ashokan time period. Indeed, the centre of maximum diversity for the Telugu-Kui languages lies right in the Srikakulam-Vishakhapatnam zone (I have seen this called some type of a trans-Godavari zone in an article I once read) of northeastern Andhra Pradesh, assuming that Gondi expanded somewhere from the southeast to more northwest. However, depending on Gondi-Kui's history, it is also possible that the centre of maximum diversity for Telugu-Kui lies a bit more west in the northeastern Telangana region. Both of these situations would indicate that Telugu spread in the southward direction beginning from the north/northeast but I always dismissed this possibility, thinking, without any strong basis and rather irrationally also I would like to add, that the principle of maximum diversity may not be applicable in this case.

Regarding Kannada, I don't know much, but it seems that in the folk culture of Kannada regions, the Bayaluseeme region holds a distinctive place in that it is deemed the cradle of Kannada culture. Bayaluseeme refers to the rolling plain centred in Mysuru district and covering a few other surrounding districts. According to the phylogeny of the current Tamil-Tulu languages, the centre of maximum diversity for the Tamil-Tulu group is indicated at the southern-Karnataka-northwestern-Tamil-Nadu region too, from which presumably both Kannada and Tamil radiated outwards to complete their current distributions in the opposite directions.

While I dismissed the results of application of maximum diversity thing for the Telugu-Kui case earlier (now I must not, it seems), I have always held the view as right for Tamil-Tulu languages. What changed for me most with your comments is that I certainly would not entertain earlier that Pre-Kannada (and Old Tamil) and Pre-Telugu had not achieved their current distributions (Kannada covering more or less the entire Karnataka and Pre-Telugu covering both Telangana and Rayalaseema as well as coastal Andhra) already by the Mauryan period and their rule of the Deccan. Now I still have a lot of concerns (probably some of them quite dumb) - like, for example, what are all these megalithic cultures seemingly concentrated in the more interior portions of the Deccan if both the important people groups of the Tamil-Tulu and Telugu-Kui were still polarised like that in a southwestern-northeastern axis? Were they actually groups with much lower populations compared to the river deltas and coasts (I don't know about the situation in Karnataka but in the AP-TS we have the Krishna-Godavari and the Penna deltas all in the coastal regions) where people were trying their luck with agriculture and such things using newly discovered iron and all? A more disciplined reading of available archaeological literature might cure many of my issues so I will try to do it when I find time.

Okay, one final question for now - what exactly do you mean by "strong Marathi undertone"? I have never heard of any type of a Marathi/Maharashtri substrate in either Telugu/Kannada; Telugu dialects have also been extensively studied and I don't know if Rayalaseema or western Telangana dialects have any of that type of a substrate. If people speaking a Maharashtri-type language as the mother tongue existed like that concentrated in the interior portions of the non-Maharashtra Deccan, then they might have been some type of low-population elites who contributed some type of a superstratal vocabulary to the Telugu and Kannada languages before being overrun by them ultimately.

Some snippets on the Andhra/Karnataka rock edicts.

"Asoka had annexed the northern part of Karnataka and the adjoining portions of "Andhra Desa"" [I think the Nands were already in the area before the Moriyas, but of course the former didn't leave inscriptions]

"The minor rock edicts have the widest distribution, with a noticeable clustering in the Andhra-Karnataka area."

"Karnataka ... Curiously, this was a Dravidian-speaking area with no prior script, yet the edicts are all composed in Prakrit ... and engraved in Brahmi."

"The epigraphs were all in the Brahmi script, while the language itself was an amalgam of the dialects of Prakrit. ... not likely to have been the language spoken in regions like Karnataka and Andhra, where there is a profusion of such inscriptions."

"The inscriptions in Brahmi Script and Prakrit language are believed to have been etched during the tours of King Ashoka after his Kalinga campaign. He was said to have camped at several places in his 256-day sojourn. According to local historians, Jonnagiri, which was known as Swarnagiri during Mauyan time, was treated as South Indian capital of the kingdom.
The content in the inscription was in consonance with other Ashokan group of inscriptions where the king was referred to Piyadasi and the Beloved of Gods. The Yerraguidi inscriptions contained in 28 parts on nine rocks which advocated that one should be obedient to one’s parents, one should likewise be obedient to one’s elders, one should be kind to living beings, one should speak truth, one should propagate the attributes of dharma, no-living being be slaughtered for sacrifices. The rock edict says “on the roads, trees have been caused to be planted and wells dug for the enjoyment of animals and men.” The edict declares that “these records related to dharma have been caused to be written by me (Ashoka) for the purpose that it may last and that my sons and grandsons may exert themselves for the welfare of all men.” Dr. Abdul Khader, historian and principal of S.J. College, has said the rock edict could be considered the first law enacted for the welfare of wildlife in the entire world. In fact they were directive principles of state policy of Mouryan Kingdom. He underscored the need for preserving it for posterity and exposing the site to school and college students in Kurnool district."

discreetmaverick
12-15-2019, 09:44 AM
Timeframe of Dravidian Languauges.

Found online. Not sure, where to post this. Curious to know how accurate is this.

35354

anthroin
12-15-2019, 05:38 PM
Timeframe of Dravidian Languauges.

Found online. Not sure, where to post this. Curious to know how accurate is this.

35354

I apologise sincerely for getting involved like this in the most abrupt and awkward fashion! That chart seems to originate from Quora and done by an earnest young amateur studying Dravidian languages. I think most of it is reasonably correct, though there a few very important inaccuracies which have to be mentioned:

1. 2500-2000 BC timeframe for Proto-Dravidian is reasonable, though Bh. Krishnamurti seems to have thought that it might have stayed intact without breaking up until as late as 1500 BC when Pre-North-Dravidian (Pre-Kurukh-Malto-Brahui) began to split from the common body first. IMO, even the first break up of Proto-South-Dravidian into Pre-South-Dravidian-I (Pre-Tamil-Tulu) and Proto-South-Dravidian-II (Pre-Telugu-Kui) probably does not date that older (1500-1000 BC), but starts happening at around 1000 BC.

2. Proto-South-Dravidian is not also referred to as "Proto-Tamil-Telugu". It's just called Proto-South-Dravidian without any alternative names AFAIK. The chart maker might have intended it as an illustrative aid to individuals without much knowledge of all the Dravidian languages other than the literary ones, seeing also the fact that he majorly included only the literary languages in his chart.

3. Proto-South-Dravidian-I is categorically not referred by another name of "Pre-Tamil". "Pre-Tamil" is majorly a term of convenience used by Bh. Krishnamurti in his "The Dravidian Languages" to refer to Pre- and Proto-Tamil-Malayalam-Irula-Kodagu-Kurumba-Toda-Kota. This lengthy-name common stage dates after the Tamil-Kannada breakup. So in his scheme which does not show the non-literary languages, "Pre-Tamil" could be used an alternative name of the stuff between Proto-Tamil-Kannada and "Oldest Tamil Inscription*".

4. Similarly, "Pre-Telugu" is not an alternative name of Proto-South-Dravidian-II. It just refers to the chain of ancestors of Proto-Telugu beginning from Proto-South-Dravidian-II until Proto-Telugu.

5. I don't know about Kannada but I doubt if there are terms like Puratana Telugu and Pracina Telugu in those meanings in the literature. Old Telugu is, I think called, Pracina Telugu in Telugu linguistics but it just refers to the earliest known stages of Telugu beginning from the meagre information from Prakrit inscriptions of 2nd century AD and then later on beginning from the Renati Choda inscription of the 6th century AD. That's why it is not uncommon to see Old Telugu being periodised as "200/600 AD - 1200 AD" or something like that. Good on the guy to come up with the terminology though.

6. I don't know if the oldest Tamil inscription dates to the 5th century BC (they say that they found all these 5th century BC inscriptions but is it widely accepted by the scholarly community?).

7. The history of individual Malayalam seems to be accurate, as is of Telugu, of Kannada, and of Tamil.

8. The period of Proto-Tamil-Kannada (a convenient term for the common stage of all South-Dravidian-I languages except Tulu (and Koraga)) seems right enough at the tail end (c. 500 BC; actually, I think Pre-Kannada-Badaga is considered to have begun to emerge as a distinct language beginning from the 6th century BC) because at the front end (c. 1000 BC) the ancestor of Tulu (and Koraga) must have been still present in their speech community as an unbroken South-Dravidian-I.

discreetmaverick
02-20-2020, 05:26 AM
@anthroin


Regarding Kannada, I don't know much,it seems that in the folk culture of Kannada regions, the Bayaluseeme region holds a distinctive place in that it is deemed the cradle of Kannada culture. Bayaluseeme refers to the rolling plain centred in Mysuru district and covering a few other surrounding districts

These are the 4 regions of Karnataka

1.Karavali - Coastal
2.Malnadu - Western Ghats
3.Northern Bayaluseeme - Krishna river and its tributaries - Districts: It covers Belgaum district, Ballari district, Bidar district, Bagalkot district, Bijapur district, Chitradurga district, Dharwad district, Gulbarga district and Raichur district.
4.Southern Bayaluseeme - Kaveri river and its tributaries - Districts: Bangalore Urban district, Bangalore Rural district, Chamarajanagar district, Hassan district, Kolar district, Mandya district, Mysuru district, and Tumkur district.

You mean Southern bayaluseeme and what exactly constitutes cradle of particular culture , in this case kannada culture - is it vocabulary? Southern bayaluseeme dialect of Kannada has more vocabulary than Northern bayaluseeme?

Pride or promotion of language by the particular region inhabitants ? literature ?

In case of folk arts, it has similar representation from all regions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_arts_of_Karnataka

anthroin
03-07-2020, 02:57 PM
@anthroin



These are the 4 regions of Karnataka

1.Karavali - Coastal
2.Malnadu - Western Ghats
3.Northern Bayaluseeme - Krishna river and its tributaries - Districts: It covers Belgaum district, Ballari district, Bidar district, Bagalkot district, Bijapur district, Chitradurga district, Dharwad district, Gulbarga district and Raichur district.
4.Southern Bayaluseeme - Kaveri river and its tributaries - Districts: Bangalore Urban district, Bangalore Rural district, Chamarajanagar district, Hassan district, Kolar district, Mandya district, Mysuru district, and Tumkur district.

You mean Southern bayaluseeme and what exactly constitutes cradle of particular culture , in this case kannada culture - is it vocabulary? Southern bayaluseeme dialect of Kannada has more vocabulary than Northern bayaluseeme?

Pride or promotion of language by the particular region inhabitants ? literature ?

In case of folk arts, it has similar representation from all regions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_arts_of_Karnataka

Actually I am not sure about what I wrote characterising southern Bayalusime as a cradle of Kannada culture and all that at all. But I am sure I must have gotten the term cradle of culture and closely associated with Bayalusime and Kannada culture in one passage from somewhere because I personally cannot usually come up with such combinations of ideas lol.

Anyway, I think, later on, I sort of rationalised it all into a neat belief system that involved one of the 2 first dynasties of Karnataka, the Ganga dynasty (and the significant amount of early history in the region before them already), as playing a major role in the cultural genesis of Karnataka. I have always seen how this thing probably would not have had much to do with the much earlier Pre-Kannada-Badaga separation from the Proto-South-Dravidian-I body. But I just wanted to sneakily push an agenda, I guess lol. Your post has shattered all the shaky foundations on which my earlier associations lay into bits.

I was not at all talking about any issues of "high amount of vocabulary" vs. "low amount" etc. though. People usually tend to have folk conceptions about these things but I believe in linguistics the usual consideration is that all languages are sufficiently equipped to suit the needs of their speakers and there is really no high vs. low there. I believe this is not a result of some leftist ideological belief (though it may have been a motivator) invoking relativism and all that, but just not putting much emphasis on any differences in the number of vocabulary items between two different language groups, because, linguists know that languages themselves are super-malleable and if their speakers want them to, they can all acquire all the (A-B) (the difference in the vocabulary of language A vs. language B) amount of vocabulary in 1 single day (or a couple of days, or a week lol). They can do this by borrowing (like English, most Indo-Aryan languages, most Dravidian languages, etc.) or by translation (Sanskrit, Icelandic, French, Tamil, etc.) or by any other such means.

Pride or promotion on the part of modern speakers also I did not talk about at all - I am aware of the fact that the Mysuru region folks are like the central coastal Andhra folks in terms of conscious self-pride and all though. But actually any similar thing occurring on the part of people of ancient regional divisions may be relevant, it seems to me, in that in the ancient days people may have had more chance at success to (often inadvertently) completely change the dialect of a neighbouring region if they had the self-pride and promoted their dialect sufficiently enough.

Edit: Also, absolutely thank you very much for letting me know the different cultural regions of Karnataka. I am becoming increasingly neurotic by the day and shutting myself down to more and more new information. I will have to crowd-source knowledge from online for a lot more time, I believe.

discreetmaverick
03-18-2020, 10:13 AM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2891-Kerala-Y-DNA-Distribution&p=645185&viewfull=1#post645185

Does that mean a Tulu or Tulu related like population was Tamilzed, then later Sanskritization created Malayalam?


One way that this, if happened, could manifest itself as physical evidence, is by showing up as a detectable Tulu-like substratum in Malayalam. I am personally not aware of any suggestions by linguists to this effect but except for the The Dravidian Languages, I really know nothing in the field of Dravidian linguistics. Also, even if no detectable Tulu-like substratum can be found in Malayalam, it does not make the possibility of massive language shift by Pre-Tulu speakers into Pre-Malayalam non-existent - it's just that we would lose a good way to support/reject such an argument.

Phylogenetically, Tulu and Tamil-Malayalam are the most diverged from each other within the South Dravidian-I subgroup. I don't know whether the northern direction or a northeastern/eastern direction (Palakkad gap thingy?) makes sense as a source for the large-scale Dravidian settlement of Kerala, but language-wise, Malayalis seem to be a thoroughly northeastern/eastern people originally.

Edit: What I wrote above may look like saying that Malayalam arose from migrating easterners into Kerala. I did not intend this - it is quite likely that the main body of South Dravidian-I-speaking peoples dispersed into both Kerala and Tamil Nadu from the Nilgiri Hills areas (and ultimately from Karnataka or further north) at the same time after leaving out Pre-Tulu and Pre-Kannada-Badaga speakers in Karnataka, and causing language shifts to South Dravidian-I to happen in the case of several Nilgiri peoples. Tamil-Malayalam-speaking peoples must have spent a significant amount of time together in some fashion with Kodagu, Toda, Kota, Irula, Kurumba, etc.-speaking peoples because they all share a common stage in linguistic development.



I took a basic look at the districts of southern Karnataka for the purpose of this and it is intriguing how the three districts Dakshina Kannada, Kodagu, and Mysuru, are neighbours, and they represent distribution of three different language sub-subgroups within the South Dravidian-I subgroup - Tulu, Kodava, and Kannada (I read that it is a commonly held belief in Karnataka that the Bayalusime region which Mysuru is a part of, is the cradle of Kannada culture) respectively. All the South Dravidian-I languages might have radiated in all directions away from just these four or five districts in southern Karnataka and northwestern Tamil Nadu indeed!

Anyway, regarding the matter at hand, Kerala shares border with all the three districts above - South Canara, Coorg, and Mysore (from where the border with Tamil Nadu starts). Why could any hypothetical pre-Tamil-Malayalam Dravidian population not be Kodava-speaking/Toda-speaking/whatever as opposed to just the Tulu possibility? Are there any geographical features in the borders with those 3 districts that could have facilitated Tulu migration more compared to others?

I personally believe the earliest Dravidian-speakers to Kerala might have simply been the Tamil-Malayalam-speaking peoples.

Continuing here the earlier discussion as it might be more relevant here and for better continuity as well.

Here is a map of Kodagu, Wayanad and Niligiri hills,
36851



Payaswini also known by the name Chandragiri, is the largest river in Kasaragod district, state of Kerala, India.


This river is considered as the traditional boundary between the Tulu Nadu and Malayalam regions of Kerala from the fourteenth century AD onwards; before that it was north of Kumbala.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payaswini

Kasaragod is part of Kerala, but region above Chandragiri river is Tulu speaking as far I know, geographically isn't moving along the coast more convenient than moving past the western ghat?

Kapisa
10-08-2020, 04:48 AM
I'll post an example of Sindhi and Eastern dialect of Balochi in a bit. Maybe you guys will hear how the accents bleed into each other.
In the Saraiki videos the older men are speaking a different dialect from the younger. My family speaks like the older guys, the accent of which I think bleeds into eastern hill dialect of Balochi. The more southwest you go, the less nasalization in Saraiki, it becomes very heavily spoken from the chest (which is very difficult for me at least, because you expel a lot of air when making a sound). The younger guy speaks something between Multani and Riasiti dialect. Other guys are speaking Riasiti. He is Rajput, while some of the other people in the video are Baloch. I assume he lives between Multan and Bahawalpur, east of me. The older guys are closer to me, but unlikely from as west as DG Khan. I would guess they are just to the north or south of me.

Hindko accents bleed considerably into Pashto (which I think is obvious from the video that was posted), but the eastern variants maintain some more tonality like Punjabi.
EDIT:




The Balochi dialects have wildly different accents, meaning if you just hear the three main ones next to each other, you may not know that the same language was spoken. I would say it's like comparing American English, British English, and Scottish accents. If you had no familiarity with English, they may all sound like different languages to you.

I'll find some examples later.

In a way, the Indo-Aryan language are just one large dialect continuum, because Sindhi just becomes more and more like Saraiki as you go north, and Saraiki just becomes more and more like Punjabi, and Punjabi becomes more and more like Hindi as you go east. Etc. If you walked the Indus River, you'd probably just not notice as the words change slightly and the accents every 20 miles.

I think the accents or manner-of-speech crosses the Indo-Aryan/Indo-Iranian divide. The way a language/dialect is pronounced or spoken is influenced heavily by the neighboring languages/dialects.

PS: Much of what I wrote are my own observations, and my observations maybe incorrect. My parents can hear accents and dialects WAY better than me. They can point out where someone is from in Southern Punjab (and a lot of Pakistan tbh) by their accents in Urdu! If I showed either video to my Father or Uncles they would know exactly where these guys are from probably. I am not nearly as well-acquainted.

I think it's linguistic continuum from really up north Kashmiri Pahari and Hindko to down south Saraiki in Koh Sulaiman to Cholistan.
What's familiar to me is the dialect in this song really. I cant speak fluently the pothwari dialects but understand. Typically pothwari folk piece by Chakwal group, "Wa wa Jhulara Bhochunr da" Some people say it's a specific dialect even within Pothwari which I m not surprised. My dad says every few cities one crosses in Punjab one hears a new dialect.
https://youtu.be/oR-D2gHgbDY
Then their is Pahari which I dont know is distinct enough east to west as in one spoken in Himanchal vs one spoken in Azad Kashmir? I can understand some of the language in this song and the movie it is from.
https://youtu.be/9egXB0QJjFA
Then there is Saraiki which I am familiar with having lived in District Khushab for a while, which I guess is like a transitional area between Shahpuri, Saraiki and Pothwari. The Piedmont areas of salt range villages speak dialects of pothwari and shahpuri while Thal desert and beyond towards Bhakkar and Muzaffargarh is Saraiki (correct me if I m wrong given my geography is iffy having lived abroad.
This piece by Atif is from Hazrat Ghulam Fareed who lived in Bahawalpur and you can hear the difference once he comes to the verses. Atif starts with Rabba Sacheya which is Punjabi poem by Faiz Ahmed Faiz from Narowal.
https://youtu.be/I8_jTmPX0gM
And then you have Balochi which I cannot understand at all. This is another Coke Studios piece by Zehri.
https://youtu.be/G4AJ_7WiDTc
Lingustic diversity the whole of Subcontinent of India is immense Pakistan being part of that continuum.

Rahuls77
10-11-2020, 06:48 PM
I think it's linguistic continuum from really up north Kashmiri Pahari and Hindko to down south Saraiki in Koh Sulaiman to Cholistan.
What's familiar to me is the dialect in this song really. I cant speak fluently the pothwari dialects but understand. Typically pothwari folk piece by Chakwal group, "Wa wa Jhulara Bhochunr da" Some people say it's a specific dialect even within Pothwari which I m not surprised. My dad says every few cities one crosses in Punjab one hears a new dialect.
https://youtu.be/oR-D2gHgbDY
Then their is Pahari which I dont know is distinct enough east to west as in one spoken in Himanchal vs one spoken in Azad Kashmir? I can understand some of the language in this song and the movie it is from.
https://youtu.be/9egXB0QJjFA
Then there is Saraiki which I am familiar with having lived in District Khushab for a while, which I guess is like a transitional area between Shahpuri, Saraiki and Pothwari. The Piedmont areas of salt range villages speak dialects of pothwari and shahpuri while Thal desert and beyond towards Bhakkar and Muzaffargarh is Saraiki (correct me if I m wrong given my geography is iffy having lived abroad.
This piece by Atif is from Hazrat Ghulam Fareed who lived in Bahawalpur and you can hear the difference once he comes to the verses. Atif starts with Rabba Sacheya which is Punjabi poem by Faiz Ahmed Faiz from Narowal.
https://youtu.be/I8_jTmPX0gM
And then you have Balochi which I cannot understand at all. This is another Coke Studios piece by Zehri.
https://youtu.be/G4AJ_7WiDTc
Lingustic diversity the whole of Subcontinent of India is immense Pakistan being part of that continuum.

Many of the Chakwalis speak the Dhanni.

And within Pothwari you have differences, Mandrawal is distinct from Kahutaywal, slightly, not much, but you can notice it. And then you have some differences in Muzaffarabad(which marks the Isogloss between Pothwari and Hindko). I find Hazara Hindko and all kinds of Pothwaris, except for Dhanni, to be exactly what I have grown up hearing and listening to. Miki okha lana Punjabi bolneyan. :) Not that I am super-fluent in Pothwari.

discreetmaverick
10-17-2020, 01:12 PM
Paisachi was an ancient variant of Prakrit which led to Desi Aprabamsah that influenced many languages. Based on some similarities some have speculated that Paisachi was an ancient Dardic influenced language.

The paishacha people are said to be the followers of Bhairava/ Shiva.

The paishacha people (Synonymous to the modern day Nuristani people) are said to live in old Northwest India and now Afganistan and North West Frontier Province or Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province of Pakaistan and they are descendants of Prajapati Kashyapa. The Nuristanis are an ethnic group native to the Nuristan region of eastern Afghanistan, who speak Indo-Iranian languages, including Nuristani (related closely to Pishachi Language). The region in olden days was known as Kapisthal or Kapirsthal. (Although Kaithal in Haryana also claims to be kapisthal). The word Kafir is supposed to be derived from it.

Paishachi language is also related to Pashto and Dardi. Paishachi is related Sanskrit because of its relation to Indo-Iranian languages.

Ashokan Inscriptions in the Khyber Pakhtunwa Province in Shahbazgarhi and Mansehra Rock Edicts in Kharoshthi script are in the Paishachi language.

The Kharoshthi script inscriptions found in Punjab are in the Paishachi language.

The Kharoshthi script inscriptions found in Central Asia- Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, northwest China i.e. in Khotan, also are in the Paishachi language.

Are you suggesting Paishachi is gandhari

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhari_language


The Kharosthi script, also spelled Kharoshthi or Kharoṣṭhī (Kharosthi: ������������) [1] was an ancient Indian script used in Gandhara (now Pakistan and north-eastern Afghanistan)[2] to write Gandhari Prakrit and Sanskrit. It was used in Central Asia as well.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharosthi

discreetmaverick
11-26-2020, 06:19 AM
I would say that both Sanskrit and Pali are refined/structured/canonized versions of the prakrits prevalent in their region of development. In that sense Pali would be a form of Magadhi prakrit and Sanskrit would be a refined form of Gandhari or perhaps Paishachi prakrit.

Of course that could make the prakrits anterior to both Pali and Sanskrit. One example would be the word for cotton - kapas. It is attested in this form earlier - kapazum - than the Sanskrit karpas, but interestingly it is the latter that has an Indo-European spread!

Cotton:
Vedic *karpāsa
Mesopotamian kapazum
Greek karposos
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/8954814/Witzel_Linguistic.pdf?sequence=1

Continuing here for relevancy,

Did kapazum as karpāsa made it to Vedic corpus during Achaemenid Empire? or through indo greeks/ thrace / bacterian greeks?

vishankar
11-26-2020, 05:21 PM
Continuing here the earlier discussion as it might be more relevant here and for better continuity as well.

Here is a map of Kodagu, Wayanad and Niligiri hills,
36851





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payaswini

Kasaragod is part of Kerala, but region above Chandragiri river is Tulu speaking as far I know, geographically isn't moving along the coast more convenient than moving past the western ghat?

The region north of the Chandragiri is culturally similar to Mangalore and Tulu Nadu- with a Kannada and Tulu linguistic majority, people undertstand and speak Malayalam, but the region of Kasargod town, Uppala Manjeshwar is really and extension of south canara!

discreetmaverick
12-21-2020, 08:16 AM
I would say that both Sanskrit and Pali are refined/structured/canonized versions of the prakrits prevalent in their region of development. In that sense Pali would be a form of Magadhi prakrit and Sanskrit would be a refined form of Gandhari or perhaps Paishachi prakrit.

Is Pashai a descendant of Gandhari?

As Pashai is classified under Dardic, is Gandhari, a Dardic language? Wiki article on Gandhari doesn't mention if it belongs to dardic.

Which other languages are descendants of Gandhari?


Some believe the Pashai are descendants of ancient Gāndhārī.[2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashayi_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhari_language

pegasus
12-21-2020, 09:57 AM
Is Pashai a descendant of Gandhari?

As Pashai is classified under Dardic, is Gandhari, a Dardic language? Wiki article on Gandhari doesn't mention if it belongs to dardic.

Which other languages are descendants of Gandhari?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashayi_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhari_language

There are plenty of Dardic groups one cannot conjecture which one had a relation with her.

Honestly, there has been limited work on analyzing Dardic language beyond what Morgenstierne and a few others have done. Afaik there are no descendants of this Prakrit and it faded along with Buddhism in this region, ultimately supplanted by Pashto/East Iranic languages from the West and NW Indo Aryan related languages from the south.

The isoglosses of Gandhari look transitional between NW Indo Aryan languages and Dardic. Based of my personal experience and musings, the only language which shares some isoglosses , would be the Shina language Palula/Sawi, which sounds much more tonal and even the way some words are pronounced were similar to say Punjabi based of what two native Punjabi speakers told me (tu si/ aa si - you/us)

discreetmaverick
12-21-2020, 06:43 PM
If Brahui had links to the IVC then it would have interacted with Indo-Iranian, Vedic, Gathic, Old Persian, Pali etc., and thus shown some remnants of those interactions.
But its interaction seems to be only with relatively modern Indic - Jatki, Sindhi, etc. and with (theoretically W. Iranian) Balochi.

What do you suggest regarding Brahui? If it is not from IVC

discreetmaverick
12-23-2020, 01:01 PM
The isoglosses of Gandhari look transitional between NW Indo Aryan languages and Dardic.

So, Gandhari was likely present on the border between Dardic and Indo-aryan?


The primary cities of Gandhara were Puruṣapura (Peshawar), Takṣaśilā (Taxila), and Pushkalavati (Charsadda).


Could it be the dialect spoken in one of the cities?


Based of my personal experience and musings, the only language which shares some isoglosses , would be the Shina language Palula/Sawi, which sounds much more tonal and even the way some words are pronounced were similar to say Punjabi based of what two native Punjabi speakers told me (tu si/ aa si - you/us)

Do know which Punjabi dialect is it? or all Punjabi dialects share this feature? or any particular dialect you think could be closer to Gandhari?


The literary languages that have developed on the basis of dialects of this area are Standard Punjabi in eastern and central Punjab, Saraiki in the southwest, Hindko in the northwest, Pahari-Pothwari in the north.


This has more detailed distinctions.


A distinction is usually made between Punjabi in the east and the diverse group of "Lahnda" in the west. "Lahnda" typically subsumes the Saraiki and Hindko varieties, with Pahari–Pothwari, Shahpuri and Jhangvi intermediate between the two groups.[2] Commonly recognised Eastern Punjabi dialects include Doabi, Majhi (the standard), Malwai, and Puadhi. The Bagri language in the southeast is transitional to Haryanvi,[citation needed] whereas the "Lahnda" variety of Khetrani in the far west may be intermediate between Saraiki and Sindhi.[3]

discreetmaverick
01-10-2021, 02:30 PM
I would say that both Sanskrit and Pali are refined/structured/canonized versions of the prakrits prevalent in their region of development. In that sense Pali would be a form of Magadhi prakrit and Sanskrit would be a refined form of Gandhari or perhaps Paishachi prakrit.


The name Paishiyauvada is from Old Persian paishiya- (writing) + -uvada (abode).


Is Paishachi an Old perisian word and/or does it refer to Old persian?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paishiyauvada

parasar
01-10-2021, 06:19 PM
Is Paishachi an Old perisian word and/or does it refer to Old persian?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paishiyauvada

Paishachi is adjective form of Pishach (पिशाच) or meat-eaters.
Feminine form is Pishachi.
Eg.
पिशङगभ्र्ष्टिमम्भ्र्णं पिशाचिमिन्द्र सं मर्ण |
सर्वंरक्षो नि बर्हय ||
Rig Veda Book 1 Hymn 133
https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv01133.htm

kaazi
01-11-2021, 01:15 AM
So, Gandhari was likely present on the border between Dardic and Indo-aryan?



Could it be the dialect spoken in one of the cities?



Do know which Punjabi dialect is it? or all Punjabi dialects share this feature? or any particular dialect you think could be closer to Gandhari?



This has more detailed distinctions.

What do we know about ancient Bahlika language/dialect? It was mentioned to be a language of Northerners ("Udichya") and Khasas; or it means it's the language of the Khas folks from north ('Udichya') country. Could it be related to nearby Gandhari language?

The Bharata Natyashastra (200 BCE to 200 CE) by Bharata Muni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natya_Shastra states that


Bāhlīkā (बाह्लीका) refers to one of the seven “major dialects” (bhāṣā) in language, according to Nāṭyaśāstra chapter 18. Accordingly, “Bāhlīkā is the native speech of the Khasas who belong to the north”.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/bahlika

Laxman S Thakur quotes the Natyashashtra phrase below: https://books.google.com.np/books?id=z4JqgSUSXDsC&pg=PA287&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

"Bāhlikabhāśodhīchyanāṃ Khaśāṇāṃ ca svadeśajā." (Translation : The Bahlika language is the native tongue of the Northerners and Khasas.)

On the basis of that first millennium CE classical text, Bahlika language could be a predecessor of all those Eastern Himalayan Khas languages (Nepali, Garhwali, Kumaoni, Dotyali).

discreetmaverick
01-12-2021, 10:43 AM
What do we know about ancient Bahlika language/dialect? It was mentioned to be a language of Northerners ("Udichya") and Khasas; or it means it's the language of the Khas folks from north ('Udichya') country. Could it be related to nearby Gandhari language?

The Bharata Natyashastra (200 BCE to 200 CE) by Bharata Muni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natya_Shastra states that



Laxman S Thakur quotes the Natyashashtra phrase below: https://books.google.com.np/books?id=z4JqgSUSXDsC&pg=PA287&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false


On the basis of that first millennium CE classical text, Bahlika language could be a predecessor of all those Eastern Himalayan Khas languages (Nepali, Garhwali, Kumaoni, Dotyali).


The English name Bactria is derived from the Ancient Greek: Βακτριανή (Romanized: Baktriani), a Hellenized version of the Bactrian endonym βαχλο (Romanized: Bakhlo). Analogous names include Avestan Bakhdi, Old Persian Bāxtriš ,[1] Middle Persian Baxl, New Persian بلخ (Romanized: Balx), Chinese 大夏 (pinyin: Dŕxiŕ), Latin Bactriana and Sanskrit: बाह्लीक (Romanized: Bāhlīka).


Bactrian (Αριαο, Aryao, [arjaː]) is an extinct Eastern Iranian language formerly spoken in the Central Asian region of Bactria
Bacteria time period - 300 BC – 1000 AD[2]

While Gandhari was Indo-Aryan or Dardic language


Gāndhārī belongs to the Middle Indo-Aryan (MIA) family of Indian languages and is closely related to Sanskrit, Pali, and various Prakrit dialects. Between the third century BCE and third century CE. Gāndhārī served as the literary language and lingua franca of the northwestern part of the Indian Subcontinent.Gāndhārī spread into adjoining regions of India, Afghanistan, and Central Asia. Recent discoveries of large numbers of manuscripts in Gāndhārī have shown that during this period Gāndhārī was a major Buddhist literary language.

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/gandhari-language

As Gandhari was contemporary of Bacterian, As during Kushan empire Gandhari spread to neighboring regions, it could have influenced nearby languages.

However, I am not a linguist, those who are or knowledge of these regions/languages can clarify and/or provide more info.



Honestly, there has been limited work on analyzing Dardic language beyond what Morgenstierne and a few others have done. Afaik there are no descendants of this Prakrit and it faded along with Buddhism in this region, ultimately supplanted by Pashto/East Iranic languages from the West and NW Indo Aryan related languages from the south.



Gāndhārī belongs to the Middle Indo-Aryan (MIA) family of Indian languages and is closely related to Sanskrit, Pali, and various Prakrit dialects. Between the third century BCE and third century CE. Gāndhārī served as the literary language and lingua franca of the northwestern part of the Indian Subcontinent.Gāndhārī spread into adjoining regions of India, Afghanistan, and Central Asia. Recent discoveries of large numbers of manuscripts in Gāndhārī have shown that during this period Gāndhārī was a major Buddhist literary language.


If Gandhari existed from the third century BCE and third century CE. Was Gandhari ultimately supplanted by East Iranic languages during Kushano-Sasanian or kidarites?

kaazi
01-12-2021, 05:24 PM
Bacteria time period - 300 BC – 1000 AD[2]

While Gandhari was Indo-Aryan or Dardic language



https://iranicaonline.org/articles/gandhari-language

As Gandhari was contemporary of Bacterian, As during Kushan empire Gandhari spread to neighboring regions, it could have influenced nearby languages.


However, I am not a linguist, those who are or knowledge of these regions/languages can clarify and/or provide more info.





If Gandhari existed from the third century BCE and third century CE. Was Gandhari ultimately supplanted by East Iranic languages during Kushano-Sasanian or kidarites?

The Bahlika being East Iranic and it being a native speech of Khasas is conflicting since modern day Khasas are Indo-Aryans. Nepali Khas and other Pahadi languages are clearly Sanskrit derived languages.

This source states that Bahlika was one of the Prakrit, dunno how true.
http://www.sanskritdictionary.com/?q=bahlika&iencoding=&lang=en

This book gives this explanation to the Bharata Muni and the Varahamihira's writings about Bahlika language of Khasas.


Linguistically, Gujjari, the language of Gujjars is only slightly different than Western Pahadi dialect prevalent in this area [Chamba, Himachal Pradesh]. Both the Bharata Natya Shashtra and Varahamihira observed that Khasas adopted the Bahlika language which in this case can only mean "Gujjari", as the Gurjaras are believed to have come from Central Asia.1 The Gujjari is akin to Rajasthani (Mewari and Mewati).
https://books.google.com.np/books?id=TQwKtSFn9FMC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=bahlika+language&source=bl&ots=P_yZyiKfiX&sig=ACfU3U0sqX7voTxQZNd-o9ymcsYjeRo4ew&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixho2v6pbuAhUEhuYKHWEHB4Y4ChDoATAIegQID BAC#v=onepage&q=bahlika%20language&f=false


This Bahlika link is now entangled with Gujjari group. Dunno about the link between Khasas, Gujjars and Bahlika language and its closeness to Western Pahadi. Google shows some sources that links Gujjars with Yuezhi tribes. All these statements look like wild guesses/theories to the Bharata Muni/Varahamihira's writings.

discreetmaverick
01-12-2021, 05:59 PM
The Bahlika being East Iranic and it being a native speech of Khasas is conflicting since modern day Khasas are Indo-Aryans. Nepali Khas and other Pahadi languages are clearly Sanskrit derived languages.

This source states that Bahlika was one of the Prakrit, dunno how true.
http://www.sanskritdictionary.com/?q=bahlika&iencoding=&lang=en

This book gives this explanation to the Bharata Muni and the Varahamihira's writings about Bahlika language of Khasas.



This Bahlika link is now entangled with Gujjari group. Dunno about the link between Khasas, Gujjars and Bahlika language and its closeness to Western Pahadi. Google shows some sources that links Gujjars with Yuezhi tribes. All these statements look like wild guesses/theories to the Bharata Muni/Varahamihira's writings.


Van Gujjars seem to be related to Heer Gujjars of East Punjab that inhabit Shivalik mountains and Kandi Doab area and Kashmiri Gujjars from the valley. Since they do not marry outside, they won't be much different from these groups.

Here is the map of Shivalik mountains,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivalik_Hills#/media/File:Sivallik_Hills_map.svg

Though they may not been there in the Nepal area of Sivalik hills, I am not sure if they are present, could once they were herding across the whole of Shivalik hills?

Could this be another entry used migrants to enter and spread into South Asia?

kaazi
01-13-2021, 01:42 AM
Here is the map of Shivalik mountains,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivalik_Hills#/media/File:Sivallik_Hills_map.svg

Though they may not been there in the Nepal area of Sivalik hills, I am not sure if they are present, could once they were herding across the whole of Shivalik hills?

Could this be another entry used migrants to enter and spread into South Asia?

No Gujjars in Nepalese Shivaliks. Linguists classified Gujari under Western section while Khas Pahadi languages are classified as Northern section. So, this explanation seems to me a wild guess made by that author.

These sources enumerates Bahlika as Prakrit.
https://www.indianetzone.com/54/prakrit_grammarians.htm
http://www.sanskritdictionary.com/?q=bahlika&iencoding=&lang=en

Banerjee wrote that some less commonly used Dramatic Prakrits include Prachya, Bahliki, Dakshinatya, Shakari, Chandali, Shabari, Abhiri, Dramili, and Odri.
https://books.google.com.np/books?id=mhEKAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

T Grahame Bailey wrote that Bahliki was a sub-division of Sauraseni Prakrit.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-the-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies/article/abs/vaza-i-istilahat-by-vahid-ud-din-salim-8-in-5-in-pp-6-305aligarh-rs-312/2C68E7DB2B9A85AA5B574E6FC1466B62

We don't know from which of the Prakrits, Khas languages developed.

I think Bahliki could've been a native Prakrit tongue spoken in Northwestern ("Udichya" country) by Khasas when Bharata Muni wrote about it, which now seems pretty lost.

discreetmaverick
01-17-2021, 05:44 PM
Actually I have a bit of a time on me and that's why I'm going on and on about this lol. You are right that the plains of the north and many of the surrounding states have that strong identity- what I also thought was that it is only this cultural identification with Hindu gold age, like Gupta empire or post-Gupta empire or so, which is present everywhere in India. Sanskrit united south India much more than any Dravidian language (Kannada and Sanskrit and Prakrits came dangerously close to wiping off Telugu from the planet but did not succeed fortunately), now English does the job for the elites and educated (which is all very good really with respect to the job of lingua franca; I meant using a foreign language like Sanskrit or English is much better than using one of the native languages).



Would be interested to know, how and when Kannada came close to make Telugu extinct?

discreetmaverick
01-17-2021, 09:31 PM
No Gujjars in Nepalese Shivaliks. Linguists classified Gujari under Western section while Khas Pahadi languages are classified as Northern section. So, this explanation seems to me a wild guess made by that author.

These sources enumerates Bahlika as Prakrit.
https://www.indianetzone.com/54/prakrit_grammarians.htm
http://www.sanskritdictionary.com/?q=bahlika&iencoding=&lang=en

Banerjee wrote that some less commonly used Dramatic Prakrits include Prachya, Bahliki, Dakshinatya, Shakari, Chandali, Shabari, Abhiri, Dramili, and Odri.
https://books.google.com.np/books?id=mhEKAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

T Grahame Bailey wrote that Bahliki was a sub-division of Sauraseni Prakrit.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-the-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies/article/abs/vaza-i-istilahat-by-vahid-ud-din-salim-8-in-5-in-pp-6-305aligarh-rs-312/2C68E7DB2B9A85AA5B574E6FC1466B62

We don't know from which of the Prakrits, Khas languages developed.

I think Bahliki could've been a native Prakrit tongue spoken in Northwestern ("Udichya" country) by Khasas when Bharata Muni wrote about it, which now seems pretty lost.

I think, based on the definition Prakrit as natural, any language belonging to any language family could be Prakrit.


Śākārī should be assigned to the Śakāra and the Śakas and other groups of the same nature

Saka is an East Iranic language.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-natyashastra/d/doc210088.html


The Prakrits (/ˈprɑːkrɪt/; Early Brahmi Sanskrit: ��������������, prākṛta;[2] Devanagari Sanskrit: प्राकृत, prākṛta; Shauraseni: ��������, pāuda; Jain Prakrit: pāua; Kannada: pāgada) are a group of vernacular Middle Indo-Aryan languages used in India from around the 3rd century BCE to the 8th century CE.[3][4]


The time period of around the 3rd Century BCE is a period of Greek presence In South Asia. Megasthenes mentions Indian did not know writing.


Megasthenes, who was in the camp of Sandrokottos, which consisted of four hundred thousand men, did not on any day see a report of thefts exceeding the sum of two hundred drachmai, and this among a people who have no written laws, who are ignorant even of writing, and regulate everything by memory.


https://www.ibiblio.org/britishraj/Jackson9/chapter01.html

Alexander founded Alexandria in the Caucasus is located to the south of Bactria, in the mountains of the Hindu Kush. For the likely purpose of trade and populated with Greeks likely facilitate trade and administration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria_in_the_Caucasus#/media/File:BactriaMap.jpg


Alexander populated the city with 7,000 Macedonians, 3,000 mercenaries and thousands of natives (according to Curtius VII.3.23), or some 7,000 natives and 3,000 non-military camp followers and a number of Greek mercenaries (Diodorus, XVII.83.2), in March 329 BC. He had also built forts in what is now Bagram, Afghanistan, at the foot of the Hindu Kush, replacing forts erected in much the same place by Persia's king Cyrus the Great c. 500 BC, Alexandria being in fact a refoundation of an Achaemenid settlement called Kapisa.[3]


Did greek took the local dialect of Kapisa, developed grammar and script for it.

It is not clear if Brahmi script is based on Aramaic or Greek as Brahmi is classified under Aramaic but with a Question mark.

Phoenician_alphabet had three descendants, so it is either Aramaic or Greek



Paleo-Hebrew alphabet
Aramaic alphabet
Greek alphabet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

If greek developed the local dialect and had a strong and influencing community of greek, has the greek language influenced the Bhalika Prakrit ? could it also be the ancestor of the Prakrits? as it would be the earliest Prakrit.

Something to know about is Graeco-Armeno-Aryan clade


Graeco-Aryan, or Graeco-Armeno-Aryan, is a hypothetical clade within the Indo-European family that would be the ancestor of Greek, Armenian, and the Indo-Iranian languages.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

Could greek influence if significant on Bhalika Prakrit create a Graeco-Aryan or Aryan language?

Any linguist or someone knowledgeable about these languages might be able to share some details

discreetmaverick
01-26-2021, 01:39 PM
Even in early Indic it is Bharad (where "t" is pronounced "d"). Iranics have that th <> t variation too.
In eastern India we can't pronouce R properly nor V nor Y. For Yama we will say Jam eg. Jamdoot cf. Jamshid.

As far as bh vs b, Old Persian has b, so Bharat may be prounounced as Barath.

Regarding Bh is Sanskrit, is Greek is Ph as per Indo European sound laws

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_sound_laws


The Phrygians (Greek: Φρύγες, Phruges or Phryges) were an ancient Indo-European people, initially dwelling in the southern Balkans – according to Herodotus – under the name of Bryges (Briges), changing it to Phryges after their final migration to Anatolia, via the Hellespont. However, the Balkan origins of the Phrygians are debated by modern scholars.[1][2]

They called themselves Bryges and Greek's would have called them Phryges as per IE Sound law.

In Sanskrit Bh for Greek Ph.

Is Bhrigu cognate with Bryges/Phruges/Phryges ?.. As suggested by the following blog post and mentions a couple more

https://sites.google.com/site/greekinfluenceonindia/rig-veda-and-it-s-origin


there are the Bhrigu (Bhryges), the Avanti (Avantes), the Kurus (Kuris), the Panchas(Panchaioi) the Koshas (Koes), the Sindhu (Sindu). They originate from different parts of Greece.

pegasus
02-03-2021, 06:23 PM
So, Gandhari was likely present on the border between Dardic and Indo-aryan?



Could it be the dialect spoken in one of the cities?



Do know which Punjabi dialect is it? or all Punjabi dialects share this feature? or any particular dialect you think could be closer to Gandhari?



This has more detailed distinctions.

Yes in a sense a kind of transition between Dardic and Vedic Indo Aryan. Though what was the ultimate death blow for Gandhari still has yet to be determined concretely. The odd part is it was the lingua franca spoken from the Taxila region going west to Hadda , Adinapur in Kunar. It was also a lingua franca in the Tarim Basin during the Saka-Buddhist period.


As per the isoglosses wrt to Palula's tonal aspects, either it was part of the substrate language prior to the arrival of Indo Aryans or a style spoken by certain Indo Aryan tribes.

parasar
02-04-2021, 03:42 AM
Regarding Bh is Sanskrit, is Greek is Ph as per Indo European sound laws
...

Even in regular spoken Indic ph and bh are used.
In many areas bhra (brother) is pronounced phra, and bhen (sister) would be phen. Similarly B-Ph, eg bua-phua.

Yes Bhrg is likely cognate to Phrg.
Herodotus gives the name as Bryg.
"Βρύγοι ... is the historical name given to a people of the ancient Balkans. They are generally considered to have been related to the Phrygians, who during classical antiquity lived in western Anatolia. Both names, Bryges and Phrygians, are assumed to be variants of the same root."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges

Kapisa
02-04-2021, 04:14 AM
Even in regular spoken Indic ph and bh are used.
In many areas bhra (brother) is pronounced phra, and bhen (sister) would be phen. Similarly B-Ph, eg bua-phua.

Yes Bhrg is likely cognate to Phrg.
Herodotus gives the name as Bryg.
"Βρύγοι ... is the historical name given to a people of the ancient Balkans. They are generally considered to have been related to the Phrygians, who during classical antiquity lived in western Anatolia. Both names, Bryges and Phrygians, are assumed to be variants of the same root."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges

In Punjabi I have noticed this bh>p shift. Bhratr in Sanskrit to 'Pra' in Punjabi.
I am not sure it's the same sound as Koine Greek where its Ph. Hellenic: *pʰrā́tēr
Ancient Greek:
Attic and Koine Greek: φρᾱ́τηρ (phrā́tēr)
Ionic Greek: φρήτηρ (phrḗtēr)
Doric Greek: φρᾱτήρ (phrātḗr)
Indo-Iranian: *bʰráHtā
Indo-Aryan: *bʰráHtā
Sanskrit: भ्रातृ (bhrā́tṛ)

desi
02-04-2021, 06:21 AM
In Punjabi I have noticed this bh>p shift. Bhratr in Sanskrit to 'Pra' in Punjabi.
I am not sure it's the same sound as Koine Greek where its Ph. Hellenic: *pʰrā́tēr
Ancient Greek:
Attic and Koine Greek: φρᾱ́τηρ (phrā́tēr)
Ionic Greek: φρήτηρ (phrḗtēr)
Doric Greek: φρᾱτήρ (phrātḗr)
Indo-Iranian: *bʰráHtā
Indo-Aryan: *bʰráHtā
Sanskrit: भ्रातृ (bhrā́tṛ)

It's actually a common phenomenon among Indo-European languages. Grimm's law shows this chain shift phenomenon in Germanic languages, but it's also seen in Indo-Aryan languages as well.

Here is the specific one:

bʰ → b → p → f

parasar
02-04-2021, 03:21 PM
In Punjabi I have noticed this bh>p shift. Bhratr in Sanskrit to 'Pra' in Punjabi.
I am not sure it's the same sound as Koine Greek where its Ph. Hellenic: *pʰrā́tēr
Ancient Greek:
Attic and Koine Greek: φρᾱ́τηρ (phrā́tēr)
Ionic Greek: φρήτηρ (phrḗtēr)
Doric Greek: φρᾱτήρ (phrātḗr)
Indo-Iranian: *bʰráHtā
Indo-Aryan: *bʰráHtā
Sanskrit: भ्रातृ (bhrā́tṛ)

Some of these changes are not internal, but produced by contacts with new scripts and languages.
In the NW of the subcontinent we see the changes (especially in vowels) due to Arabic script being used. Also in Iran where Pars became Fars and Parsi Farsi.
In eastern India we have difficulty pronouncing R, V, etc. - perhaps due to TB contacts.
The same is seen in names in southern India where Sanskrit names remain, but have a distinct Tamil form to them.

discreetmaverick
02-04-2021, 07:18 PM
It is how a language sounds like, due to intonations and some word usage probably. In the Kolar-Bangalore area there is Tamil nature to Kannada. In the old (Halle) Kannada area it sounds more like Marathi. It is say Hindi spoken by a Bangali vs a Panjabi, the intonations are respectively from Bangali and Panjabi.

What exactly is Tamil Nature to Kannada? Tamil Vocab in Kannada or Accent?

What is the old Kannada area? When you are referring to old Kannada? is it based on the classification of Kannada as old/middle/modern ?


Old Kannada or Halegannada (Kannada: ಹಳೆಗನ್ನಡ) is the Kannada language that transformed from Purvada halegannada or Pre-old Kannada during the reign of the Kadambas of Banavasi (ancient royal dynasty of Karnataka 345−525 CE).[1]

or regions that border Maharashtra?

Kapisa
02-04-2021, 08:27 PM
Some of these changes are not internal, but produced by contacts with new scripts and languages.
In the NW of the subcontinent we see the changes (especially in vowels) due to Arabic script being used. Also in Iran where Pars became Fars and Parsi Farsi.
In eastern India we have difficulty pronouncing R, V, etc. - perhaps due to TB contacts.
The same is seen in names in southern India where Sanskrit names remain, but have a distinct Tamil form to them.

Do you know anything about the Apabhraṃśa or middle to late Indo-Aryan prakrits that gave rise to Lahnda, Punjabi and Sindhi. An epic poem named Sandeśarāsaka written after early Arab contact around 12th century by a muslim named Abdur Rahman in Multan seems to have been written in this Middle to Late Prakrit form which predated Lahnda, Punjabi and Sindhi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandeśarāsaka
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Objects_of_Translation/OLNE_li8C10C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Multan+sun+temple+destroyed&pg=PA155&printsec=frontcover

desi
02-04-2021, 11:31 PM
Do you know anything about the Apabhraṃśa or middle to late Indo-Aryan prakrits that gave rise to Lahnda, Punjabi and Sindhi. An epic poem named Sandeśarāsaka written after early Arab contact around 12th century by a muslim named Abdur Rahman in Multan seems to have been written in this Middle to Late Prakrit form which predated Lahnda, Punjabi and Sindhi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandeśarāsaka
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Objects_of_Translation/OLNE_li8C10C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Multan+sun+temple+destroyed&pg=PA155&printsec=frontcover

This is so cool. Never knew about this text and it really does a great job highlighting the state of early Islamic thought in the subcontinent where you can still see the Hindu influences:


माणुस्सदुव्वविज्जाहरेहिं णहमग्गि सूर ससि बिंबे।
आएहिं जो णमिज्जइ तं णयरे णमह कत्तारं।
māṇussaduvvavijjāharehiṃ ṇahamaggi sūra sasi biṃbe.
āehiṃ jo ṇamijjai taṃ ṇayare ṇamaha kattāraṃ.
O citizens, salute the creator who is saluted by men, gods, vidyadharas, the sun and the moon.

As far as I know the Apabhraṃśa that led to the Northwestern languages was a mix of different influences, primarily with a strong substrate of Shauraseni and Kekaya.

Kapisa
02-06-2021, 11:08 PM
A conversation in pothwari with a local Sheperd. The youtuber is speaking in a different Pothwari dialect than the Sheperd. One thing interesting I noticed (Rahul77 or other fluent speakers would know better): starting the conversation he asks "Tsu-ni/Chu-ni bakriy-en." He is probably asking "Are these goats yours?" A simpler way might be "Tusa-ni," for "yours." Punjabi would be "Tuhadiyan." In local conversation consonants seem to be merged! Overall it sounded very much potohari to my ear. The Sheperd understood it but spoke in a more south potohari like.
https://youtu.be/H8ATnggh5Tw

Azbuzz
02-09-2021, 08:02 AM
Hey guys, I'm Pakistani Parsi, and when I went to Gujarat, I noticed Gujarat Gujarati is different from the Parsi variation. I also lived among Dawoodi Bohras and Pakistan and their Gujarati is also slightly different.

Many people also consider Parsi Gujarati a different language altogether. That's because Parsi Gujarati has elements of Avestan or Pahlavi in it (I think).

I'm wondering if any Gujarati speaker can maybe speak a few sentences so I can see the difference.

The most obvious difference is that Gujaratis add "che" at the end of a sentence which Parsis don't. Like "tu su karech" in Parsi would be "tu su kare che" in 'proper' Gujarati.

Other differences are that Gujaratis say "ane" for the word and whilst Parsis usually say "ne".

I also speak Zoroastrian Dari (due to my relatives being Iranian as well), and that's a cool language that combines various Iranian dialects.

Rahuls77
02-09-2021, 08:23 AM
Hey guys, I'm Pakistani Parsi, and when I went to Gujarat, I noticed Gujarat Gujarati is different from the Parsi variation. I also lived among Dawoodi Bohras and Pakistan and their Gujarati is also slightly different.

Many people also consider Parsi Gujarati a different language altogether. That's because Parsi Gujarati has elements of Avestan or Pahlavi in it (I think).

I'm wondering if any Gujarati speaker can maybe speak a few sentences so I can see the difference.

The most obvious difference is that Gujaratis add "che" at the end of a sentence which Parsis don't. Like "tu su karech" in Parsi would be "tu su kare che" in 'proper' Gujarati.

Other differences are that Gujaratis say "ane" for the word and whilst Parsis usually say "ne".

I also speak Zoroastrian Dari (due to my relatives being Iranian as well), and that's a cool language that combines various Iranian dialects.

And the most noticeable is the retroflexed T, which sets the Parsis apart, even to the layman.

Azbuzz
02-09-2021, 09:01 PM
And the most noticeable is the retroflexed T, which sets the Parsis apart, even to the layman.

Can you give an example? I'm not sure what a retroflexed T sounds like and how it's different in standard Gujarati compared to Parsi Gujarati.

Rahuls77
02-09-2021, 09:30 PM
Can you give an example? I'm not sure what a retroflexed T sounds like and how it's different in standard Gujarati compared to Parsi Gujarati.

For instance how they pronounce Rustam as RussTom. I have noticed it for far too long in Pune and Mumbai.

Azbuzz
02-09-2021, 09:48 PM
For instance how they pronounce Rustam as RussTom. I have noticed it for far too long in Pune and Mumbai.

Well, Rustam is a Parsi/Persian name, I guess that's just the way the name is pronounced.

Rahuls77
02-09-2021, 10:10 PM
Well, Rustam is a Parsi/Persian name, I guess that's just the way the name is pronounced.

It sure is Persian, however the way it is pronounced by a few Zoroastrians I know of, and the affectionate Rusty, that is a little distinct. I think it could merely be an urban thing, among the old Bombay and Pune elite. The urban Parsis of these two cities were the most progressive of all South Asians and had integrated with the Anglos early on and somehow adopted the English language and likely ended up with an Anglicised Gujarati accent, or when speaking languages they would not have, in the past, such as Hindustani. However I don't think if they meant to be derisive towards South Asian languages or culture, in fact they have been probably the most charitable and respectful towards all communities in South Asia, I have noticed this personally.

Azbuzz
02-09-2021, 11:19 PM
It sure is Persian, however the way it is pronounced by a few Zoroastrians I know of, and the affectionate Rusty, that is a little distinct. I think it could merely be an urban thing, among the old Bombay and Pune elite. The urban Parsis of these two cities were the most progressive of all South Asians and had integrated with the Anglos early on and somehow adopted the English language and likely ended up with an Anglicised Gujarati accent, or when speaking languages they would not have, in the past, such as Hindustani. However I don't think if they meant to be derisive towards South Asian languages or culture, in fact they have been probably the most charitable and respectful towards all communities in South Asia, I have noticed this personally.

Interesting. I guess there are multiple ways you can tell a Parsi apart from other South Asians. Language is one of them.

Kirtan24
02-10-2021, 07:15 AM
Hey guys, I'm Pakistani Parsi, and when I went to Gujarat, I noticed Gujarat Gujarati is different from the Parsi variation. I also lived among Dawoodi Bohras and Pakistan and their Gujarati is also slightly different.

Many people also consider Parsi Gujarati a different language altogether. That's because Parsi Gujarati has elements of Avestan or Pahlavi in it (I think).

I'm wondering if any Gujarati speaker can maybe speak a few sentences so I can see the difference.

The most obvious difference is that Gujaratis add "che" at the end of a sentence which Parsis don't. Like "tu su karech" in Parsi would be "tu su kare che" in 'proper' Gujarati.

Other differences are that Gujaratis say "ane" for the word and whilst Parsis usually say "ne".

I also speak Zoroastrian Dari (due to my relatives being Iranian as well), and that's a cool language that combines various Iranian dialects.

I am a Gujarati native speaker and the differences you pointed can be just attributed to regional dialects. "karech" or "karach" instead of "kare che" is usually used in the Surat/Navsari/Ankleshwar/Valsad area, where a lot of the Parsi population was concentrated (the sacred Zoroastrian temple of Udvada Atash Behram also being nearby). "Ane" being pronounced as "ne" can be seen in many Gujarati dialects, especially Surati, Kathiawari and Kuttchi. What Rahul is alluding to as the strong "T" instead of the softer "t" of standard Gujarati is also a salient feature of old Surati.

I would be happy to send you audio recordings of spoken Gujarati, just let me know what you would like to hear.

Edit: But I do think that Parsis have a somewhat distinct way of speaking Gujarati, especially the old birds. It is a vibrant mix of Surati, standard Gujarati with a nice dose of lone words from Persian. This is, of course, a simplification and a mere hypothesis from my side, derived from my observations of my two Parsi schoolmates and their families. I also had the pleasure of reading the books of Rohinton Mistry, which I thoroughly enjoyed. His brief demonstrations of Parsi Gujarati were very amusing.

Azbuzz
02-10-2021, 01:35 PM
I am a Gujarati native speaker and the differences you pointed can be just attributed to regional dialects. "karech" or "karach" instead of "kare che" is usually used in the Surat/Navsari/Ankleshwar/Valsad area, where a lot of the Parsi population was concentrated (the sacred Zoroastrian temple of Udvada Atash Behram also being nearby). "Ane" being pronounced as "ne" can be seen in many Gujarati dialects, especially Surati, Kathiawari and Kuttchi. What Rahul is alluding to as the strong "T" instead of the softer "t" of standard Gujarati is also a salient feature of old Surati.

I would be happy to send you audio recordings of spoken Gujarati, just let me know what you would like to hear.

Edit: But I do think that Parsis have a somewhat distinct way of speaking Gujarati, especially the old birds. It is a vibrant mix of Surati, standard Gujarati with a nice dose of lone words from Persian. This is, of course, a simplification and a mere hypothesis from my side, derived from my observations of my two Parsi schoolmates and their families. I also had the pleasure of reading the books of Rohinton Mistry, which I thoroughly enjoyed. His brief demonstrations of Parsi Gujarati were very amusing.

All I know is that in Karachi, the only other people who spoke Gujarati as well were Dawoodi Bohras. Their Gujarati was much more similar to what I heard in Mumbai and much more different from Parsi Gujarati.

The later Iranis speak their Gujarati with much more Dari involved in it. They say Chom instead of Bhonu for food.

Sure, you can send that, and then I'll send you the Gujarati Pakistani Parsis speak (which is identical almost to what I heard in Mumbai among Parsis).

Again, like I said before, many ways to seperate a Parsi from other South Asians. Language being one of the most distinct and obvious ways.