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khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 04:31 AM
The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis endevors to consolidate all known information regarding all regional and ethnic identifiers.


Share your knowledge regarding a surname, or post a question about one.
Any topic that has to do with a name that comes after a First (Given) name belongs in this thread.

vintage_sky
02-17-2018, 01:15 PM
The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis

What is this organisation and who runs in?

Reza
02-17-2018, 01:20 PM
What is this organisation and who runs in?

His lordship Khana

Reza
02-17-2018, 01:47 PM
In Bengal, "Pathan" literally has zero relevance. I have read of Pathans in British journals and such, but have never encountered one who identifies as Pathan. I have though, on one guy who said that one of their long time forefathers was a Pathan or such (belongs to a Zamindari family), but would never identify as such, but in the same perspective, you'll also find Bengali Muslims who claim local Hindu heritage like Kayastha, Rajbanghshi etc, more so than Pathans and such.

The 'Pathan' moniker is mostly restricted to the Hindi Belt, where people do not have a strict ethnic identity, and identify with castes/communities. In their perspective, Pathan is a caste/community, and not really a strict ethnic group since the idea of an ethnic group to them is foreign.

Only Gujarat outside the Hindi Belt would be an exception, but Gujarat is very "casteist" in nature, and like how Hindu groups form "caste Samaj" for their respective communities, the Muslims form "Jamat". While on the contrary, outside of Assam, Bengal is the least casteist place in the entire Indo-Aryan speaking subcontinent. Especially for Muslims, castes do not form any relevance. Marriage is mostly based on merit/income/love, rather than "khandan", that existed in the 19th/early 20th centuries. Hindus too, now hardly care, and the most common pairing is Kayastha-Brahmin.

Bringing this discussion over to this thread ..

I echo what Kulin has said above, I have never come across a Bengali that actually identifies with being Pathan ie Pashtun. They are Bengali in language, culture and looks and that is their only ethnic identity. That may be different outside of Bengal with other Muslims.

What some people do claim, is ancestry from an alleged 'Pathan' - note, the term Pashtun is never used, and so their 'jaat' is usually referenced as Pathan khandan/bongsho/jaat. Much the same way as others may be Chowdhury, Sayyid, Taluqdar, Sheikh or various other titles which are far more common in Bangladesh than Khan. Traditional class based titles in Bengal were either landholding zamindari titles +/- ancestry affiliations. As well as occupational ones.

It says more about the interplay of class and status in Bengali Muslim society than actual affiliation with modern day ethnic identities.

So my maternal grandfather's title was Khan, but more relevant, his jaat is considered Pathan, and the story goes that there was a Pathan/Afghan ancestor that moved to the area. That association with Pathans doesn't actually go beyond that Bengali societal class/group. He and the rest of the family were Bengali through and through. The actual ancestor, it may all be made up - but to be honest, it's one of the family stories that spurred me into getting myself tested in the first place.

On my paternal side, their title was Taluqdar, but previous to the British times, their title was also Khan. But there is no association with ancestry from Afghans or Mongols, with actually, most likely Hindu Kayastha ancestry somewhere. I think Razib Khan's is similar. I imagine, Khan was a hereditary title symbolising land ownership or something else.

People are very aware that Khan is usually a 'title' distributed to many especially in the Mughal and British era. If anything, the association of Sayyids with actual ancestry from the Prophet is far more of a problematic issue.

parasar
02-17-2018, 06:46 PM
The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis endevors to consolidate all known information regarding all regional and ethnic identifiers.


Share your knowledge regarding a surname, or post a question about one.
Any topic that has to do with a name that comes after a First (Given) name belongs in this thread.

To get the Institute in gear!

Caste: Babhan (Pali form of Brahman)
Occupational caste: Bhumihar
Clan: Eksariya (from village of Eksar, Saran, Bihar or one-head)
Gotra: Parasar section of Vasisth

Since all of the above are patrilineal, my Y: R1a1 L657 Y9 Y2351 Y2392 Y2393/FGC7405 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9/ Y2351 splits from the main Y7 line 2200BC, then my line splits from a line in Gujarat 1400BC, a Lankan line 1000BC, and a Andhra line (no TMRCA can be calculated).
Y2351 has not been found outside South Asia.

Maternal line is U2b2 but the maternal line can only be tracked by their paternal line - Jaji Babhan - so not of much use for historical purposes.

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 07:20 PM
To get the Institute in gear!

Caste: Babhan (Pali form of Brahman)
Occupational caste: Bhumihar
Clan: Eksariya (from village of Eksar, Saran, Bihar or one-head)
Gotra: Parasar section of Vasisth

Since all of the above are patrilineal, my Y: R1a1 L657 Y9 Y2351 Y2392 Y2393/FGC7405 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9/ Y2351 splits from the main Y7 line 2200BC, then my line splits from a line in Gujarat 1400BC, a Lankan line 1000BC, and a Andhra line (no TMRCA can be calculated).
Y2351 has not been found outside South Asia.

Maternal line is U2b2 but the maternal line can only be tracked by their paternal line - Jaji Babhan - so not of much use for historical purposes.

Can you detail the hierarchy of how all this breaks down, for those unfamiliar with how each term relates to the other.

My guesses:

You are a Vasisth Brahmin of the Parasar section -- this identifies religious/traditional affiliation within Hinduism, I presume?
Your clan is Eksariya -- this identifies your actual paternal biological descent.
Your caste is Bhabhan -- this identifies hierarchy amongst Brahmins in general, or role?
Your occupational caste is Bhumihar -- this identifies your family's traditional occupation?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So knowing clan is more important genetically?

Secondly, is there a nice flowchart or something showing the whole Brahmin "tree" if you will?
Is there a general list of what each caste means? ie. What does Bhumihar mean? What occupation?

surbakhunWeesste
02-17-2018, 08:00 PM
Bringing this discussion over to this thread ..

I echo what Kulin has said above, I have never come across a Bengali that actually identifies with being Pathan ie Pashtun. They are Bengali in language, culture and looks and that is their only ethnic identity. That may be different outside of Bengal with other Muslims.

What some people do claim, is ancestry from an alleged 'Pathan' - note, the term Pashtun is never used, and so their 'jaat' is usually referenced as Pathan khandan/bongsho/jaat. Much the same way as others may be Chowdhury, Sayyid, Taluqdar, Sheikh or various other titles which are far more common in Bangladesh than Khan. Traditional class based titles in Bengal were either landholding zamindari titles +/- ancestry affiliations. As well as occupational ones.

It says more about the interplay of class and status in Bengali Muslim society than actual affiliation with modern day ethnic identities.

So my maternal grandfather's title was Khan, but more relevant, his jaat is considered Pathan, and the story goes that there was a Pathan/Afghan ancestor that moved to the area. That association with Pathans doesn't actually go beyond that Bengali societal class/group. He and the rest of the family were Bengali through and through. The actual ancestor, it may all be made up - but to be honest, it's one of the family stories that spurred me into getting myself tested in the first place.

On my paternal side, their title was Taluqdar, but previous to the British times, their title was also Khan. But there is no association with ancestry from Afghans or Mongols, with actually, most likely Hindu Kayastha ancestry somewhere. I think Razib Khan's is similar. I imagine, Khan was a hereditary title symbolising land ownership or something else.

People are very aware that Khan is usually a 'title' distributed to many especially in the Mughal and British era. If anything, the association of Sayyids with actual ancestry from the Prophet is far more of a problematic issue.

That's quite odd, here in the US, I come across few, once in a while. The ones with last name Khan and their affiiliations
one such event:
One bank teller girl to me: "what is your ethnicity?"
I replied her back, then she goes:
"My dad tells me that I look pathan as they come and it's in my blood(referring to weight, she was chubby), we are sisters".
I didn't know if it was a compliment or otherwise, I am not fat but I guess, I have a bigger frame.

I meet many uber drivers who say that they are Pathan and they have the ancestry. Maybe some are true, given that Pashtun empire flourished towards that direction as well, though by now it has watered down, genetically, culturally....

Having said that, I know many 'Pashtuns' online and on various forums troll such claims and I feel like throwing up reading many comments. I personally believe that there must be some truth to those claims though save the fascination/hatred towards Pashtuns.

parasar
02-17-2018, 08:08 PM
Can you detail the hierarchy of how all this breaks down, for those unfamiliar with how each term relates to the other.

My guesses:

You are a Vasisth Brahmin of the Parasar section -- this identifies religious/traditional affiliation within Hinduism, I presume?
Your clan is Eksariya -- this identifies your actual paternal biological descent.
Your caste is Bhabhan -- this identifies hierarchy amongst Brahmins in general, or role?
Your occupational caste is Bhumihar -- this identifies your family's traditional occupation?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So knowing clan is more important genetically?

Secondly, is there a nice flowchart or something showing the whole Brahmin "tree" if you will?
Is there a general list of what each caste means? ie. What does Bhumihar mean? What occupation?

You got it!

Vasisth was one of the seven Vedic Rishis of yore (asuric Maitra-varuni). Cf. Avestan Vahist or excellent.
Parasar was an illustrious personage in the Vasisth lineage. This chap killed many demons so his name is granted separate family (pravar) recognition.

Clan comes from a historical person - Jargarnath Dixit who lived in Eksar village in the early sixteenth century (~1530).
"The name of their clan is Eksariya ; of their gotra, Parasar"
https://books.google.com/books?id=yr0OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA40
"who settled in the village of -Eksar in the early sixteenth century"
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ck4jmD7H34UC&pg=PA59

While we are of Brahman lineage we are not priests but alloidal agriculturists (thus bhumihar).

Geneticaly clan should definitely be more cohesive than gotra which was spread all over northern India by at least 500bc. https://books.google.com/books?id=8Au_lIP1ZnQC&pg=PA190

Reza
02-17-2018, 08:38 PM
That's quite odd, here in the US, I come across few, once in a while. The ones with last name Khan and their affiiliations
one such event:
One bank teller girl to me: "what is your ethnicity?"
I replied her back, then she goes:
"My dad tells me that I look pathan as they come and it's in my blood(referring to weight, she was chubby), we are sisters".
I didn't know if it was a compliment or otherwise, I am not fat but I guess, I have a bigger frame.

I meet many uber drivers who say that they are Pathan and they have the ancestry. Maybe some are true, given that Pashtun empire flourished towards that direction as well, though by now it has watered down, genetically, culturally....

Having said that, I know many 'Pashtuns' online and on various forums troll such claims and I feel like throwing up reading many comments. I personally believe that there must be some truth to those claims though save the fascination/hatred towards Pashtuns.

That's interesting... I didn't realise chubbiness was a pashtun quality ;)

Assuming that bank clerk was Bengali, I imagine it could simply be an interesting topic of conversation through association. i.e. alleged Afghani ancestor and she meets an Afghani - something easy to talk about. And people love to exaggerate coupled with the culturally inbuilt inferiority complex, that when south asians demonstrate what they perceive to be a non-indigenous quality, they attribute it to something else - comes easily to all of us to some degree.

With other Bangladeshis, I can't conceive of her describing herself as Pathan / Afghani as opposed to Bengali. That's what I was referring to. It's more of a specific cultural / class distinctions within Bengali Muslim society. She fixates on this Pashtun ancestor when she meets an Afghani, much the way sayyids would on Arab ancestry, or maybe Brits with Norman ancestry. Or how someone might on how aristocratic their ancestors were, or the imam of some grand mosque. The opposite also being true, of proving how little ancestry they might have from any admixture type event. Sadly a reflection of society in itself, rather than specific to certain cultures. The trolling and angst people suffer from some of these claims is quite funny from the opposite end.

Anyhow, the veracity of such claims is going to be near impossible to test unless there's clear evidence to the contrary. Talking about probable individual males settling and assimilating into a wider society any time between 1300 to 1600s. Way too long ago to pick up. Not enough definition on y-dna testing. My maternal grandfather came up as R1a1a. Could be anything. Local being more likely, but the counter claim not disproved either.

I just find it interesting on a deeper level, that an event from so long ago can still shape cultural memories so strongly.

soulblighter
02-17-2018, 08:48 PM
Can you detail the hierarchy of how all this breaks down, for those unfamiliar with how each term relates to the other.

So knowing clan is more important genetically?

Secondly, is there a nice flowchart or something showing the whole Brahmin "tree" if you will for all the Brahmins?
Is there a general list of what each caste means? ie. What does Bhumihar mean? What occupation?

There are no clans among South Indian Brahmins. Sub-castes (and further divisions) do exist.

It would be incredibly difficult to draw a tree for just the Tamil Brahmins, so i doubt a nice flowchart exists.

For example, Tamil Brahmins are split among three big divisions of "Iyers", "Iyengars"and "Sivacharyas (also called Gurukkals)". These are big divisions and stem from difference between the definition of God, Soul relationship between them and to the corporeal body ( so in essence separate religions that split off in their doctrine just like Christianity and Islam did from a Jewish source).
THe Iyers are themselves split into various subcastes such as Vadama, Vathima, Brahatcharanam and Ashtasahasram.
There is further subdivison among each group. For example, the Vadamas are split into Vadadesha Vadama, Chola desha vadama, Inji Vadama, Sabhya and Thummagunta dravida. Until recently, there groups married within each other as long as the couple did not share the same Gotra. However this intermarriage within the group has changed because there are fewer numbers due to nuclear families.

There are subdivisions among the Iyengars as well and so on. You probabably get the idea....

surbakhunWeesste
02-17-2018, 09:07 PM
That's interesting... I didn't realise chubbiness was a pashtun quality ;)

Assuming that bank clerk was Bengali, I imagine it could simply be an interesting topic of conversation through association. i.e. alleged Afghani ancestor and she meets an Afghani - something easy to talk about. And people love to exaggerate coupled with the culturally inbuilt inferiority complex, that when south asians demonstrate what they perceive to be a non-indigenous quality, they attribute it to something else - comes easily to all of us to some degree.

With other Bangladeshis, I can't conceive of her describing herself as Pathan / Afghani as opposed to Bengali. That's what I was referring to. It's more of a specific cultural / class distinctions within Bengali Muslim society. She fixates on this Pashtun ancestor when she meets an Afghani, much the way sayyids would on Arab ancestry, or maybe Brits with Norman ancestry. Or how someone might on how aristocratic their ancestors were, or the imam of some grand mosque. The opposite also being true, of proving how little ancestry they might have from any admixture type event. Sadly a reflection of society in itself, rather than specific to certain cultures. The trolling and angst people suffer from some of these claims is quite funny from the opposite end.

Anyhow, the veracity of such claims is going to be near impossible to test unless there's clear evidence to the contrary. Talking about probable individual males settling and assimilating into a wider society any time between 1300 to 1600s. Way too long ago to pick up. Not enough definition on y-dna testing. My maternal grandfather came up as R1a1a. Could be anything. Local being more likely, but the counter claim not disproved either.

I just find it interesting on a deeper level, that an event from so long ago can still shape cultural memories so strongly.

I didn't know either, and I am 5'7" ~125lbs. That's prolly what it boils up to. However, given this thread and for the sake of attempt on accuracy: Afghani is the currency, it's a cringe for many like me, I guess there are others who don't care and pass it off but that ain't right. I have witnessed that many say it to downplay during a conversation though I know such is not the case here.
It's like calling Bangladeshi people, 'Taka' or other south Asians, "Rupiyah" or lulz.

I'd like to take such claims seriously, at least now. I have cousins who are mixed via maternal side and they are likely to opt out of the culture... given that we live in the west and they are likely to procreate with someone from a different culture and the descendants are just gonna have the "lastname"/ most likely 'Khan'...

Reza
02-17-2018, 09:25 PM
Fair point, I stand corrected!

I've always used that term as I would Irani for example, presumably from Bengali usage, though in English, I imagine, the appropriate term would be Afghan!

khanabadoshi
02-17-2018, 10:11 PM
There are no clans among South Indian Brahmins. Sub-castes (and further divisions) do exist.

It would be incredibly difficult to draw a tree for just the Tamil Brahmins, so i doubt a nice flowchart exists.

For example, Tamil Brahmins are split among three big divisions of "Iyers", "Iyengars"and "Sivacharyas (also called Gurukkals)". These are big divisions and stem from difference between the definition of God, Soul relationship between them and to the corporeal body ( so in essence separate religions that split off in their doctrine just like Christianity and Islam did from a Jewish source).
THe Iyers are themselves split into various subcastes such as Vadama, Vathima, Brahatcharanam and Ashtasahasram.
There is further subdivison among each group. For example, the Vadamas are split into Vadadesha Vadama, Chola desha vadama, Inji Vadama, Sabhya and Thummagunta dravida. Until recently, there groups married within each other as long as the couple did not share the same Gotra. However this intermarriage within the group has changed because there are fewer numbers due to nuclear families.

There are subdivisions among the Iyengars as well and so on. You probabably get the idea....

So perhaps from a genetic perspective, it is not useful to distinguish the different subgroups of Brahmins in South India, as these divisions are more theological/ideological and are less likely to manifest in any kind of observable pattern?
However, if the Brahmins of the North have clans, and some clans are more associated with particular ideologies, perhaps the Brahmins of the South may originally be from some of them. This may be mirrored by similar theological backgrounds. Maybe in that sense we may find genetic relationships?

anthroin
02-18-2018, 01:46 AM
The situation in the case of Telugu Brahmins may also be somewhat similar to what soulblighter has written about Tamil Brahmins, but may not be exactly the same. I am not a Brahmin so I'm not intensely aware of the details of the subcastes of Telugu Brahmins, but as far as I know there are categories like Niyogi Brahmanulu and Vaidiki Brahmanulu with the understanding that Niyogi means that the Brahmin was supposed to take up some sort of secular job like a minister to a chief/king, village head, accountant of a king, treasurer of a king, poet, writer, etc. etc. while Vaidiki means that the Brahmin was supposed to take up majorly jobs like priestly duties in a temple. I am not aware of the details but they have some legends in the case of Niyogi Brahmins such as like they came to Andhra as some 6000 in number at some olden point in time or something like that (not sure where from, probably from Varanasi?), as the name of their caste is Aruvela Niyogulu ('6000 Niyogis' in Telugu). And I'm very superficially aware of regional divisions among Vaidiki Brahmins, such as like Velanati Vaidikulu ('Vaidikis of Velanadu', a medieval administrative district in Andhra), etc. I have no idea of allowances/restrictions of intermarriage between these Brahmin subcastes though. Probably Niyogis and Vaidikis did (or do) have some restrictions when it came to marriages, but I'm not sure.

But parallel to these two categories, there do exist several minor Brahmin groups whose identity appears to be based on their genetic origins, but I am not sure. And I don't know if these groups consider themselves as falling under one of the two big categories too, alongside their basic identity. The category that comes to my mind is the Nandavarika Brahmanulu, 'The Brahmins of Nandavarikam/Nandavaram'. Nandavaram is a small village or town in the Kurnool district and the origin myth of these Brahmins is that they were brought to Andhra by the king of Nandavaram at some point but quite recently (in the 1300s or 1400s perhaps), and from Varanasi. They maintain that identity till this date and I have seen matrimonial ads mentioning Nandavarika and seeking a Nandavarika. The great poet of the temple poetry tradition of Andhra (which was one of the other currents of Telugu literature that people of the classical school of Telugu literature did not even recognise since recently), Tallapaka Annamayya belonged to this group. It appears they initially took up some non-Indo-Aryan traditions like acting as priests of the local Dravidian village goddesses of the Kurnool area but Annamayya, arguably the most illustrious of their group, directed them towards Vaishnavism- he at least died a Srivaishnava. I'm not aware if the Nandavarika group consider themselves as strictly Vaishnavas or Smartas. That brings us to the Vaishnava and Smarta distinction.

In the post about Tamil Nadu that soulblighter has written, Iyer and Iyengar were mentioned. Iyer roughly corresponds to the Smarta of Andhra and Iyengar to Vaishnava, speaking based on theological differences. But typically, most of the Brahmins of Andhra are Smarta with Saivite tendencies, many are exclusively Saivite and relatively fewer are Vaishnavite. Many Vaishnavas of Iyengar type are found in the districts of Telangana and they tend to have names like Achari at the end of their names. I don't know about other regions but my grandmother who belonged to a small village near Vijayawada in Krishna district, differentiates between the priest of the Rama (a form of Vishnu) temple of her village from the priest of the Shiva temple, by calling the former a "Namb(i) ayana", 'Nambi gentleman', "Nambi vallu", 'Nambi people' and she uses no such terms for the latter. Nambi may have something to do with the Tamil word Nambi which means 'our brother' used so much among the Srivaishnavite Iyengar Brahmins of Tamil Nadu. There are also a small group of Madhwite Brahmins mainly living in Rayalaseema districts of Kurnool, Anantapur, etc. who follow the Vaishnavite religion of Madhwa of Karnataka.

Most of the non-Brahmin people of Andhra and Telangana have what are called "gotras" but they are decidedly non-Sanskritic. (I heard the Rajus of the Godavari districts (who are commonly considered Kshatriyas) have Sanskritic gotras, but I'm not sure.) They are all Dravidian words and don't even seem to have anything to do with any paternal ancestor; I don't even know why they are called gotras then; perhaps any other other logic is there. For example, my gotra name is said to be one "Arunulla" which can mean 'of the six hundreds' or 'of the six strings'. Perhaps something to do with some ancient exogamous farmer group or soldier group, if we go by the first understanding, but it is nothing definite, and if I'm asked I'd say almost meaningless etymologically, at least currently. And many of these "gotras" are present in groups considered to be of different castes too, such as like many historically-farmer castes which typically don't intermarry each other these days. That brings us to caste.

I'm aware of mainly the historical-farmer category, and cannot talk about other groups. It appears that all the groups like Reddy, Velama, Kamma, Kapu, etc. were originally just one big farmer caste and what they were called then we don't know; but there are ancient cognates of the words Velama and Kapu in the other Dravidian languages: see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/burrow/ entry 1456: Kannada "gāmpa", 'a rustic, simpleton, vulgar or vile man, etc.', Telugu "kã̄pu", 'a cultivator, farmer; pertaining to the farmer, rustic', etc., "kã̄puramu" 'dwelling, residence, abode, domicile', Gondi "kāp" 'Parja (i.e. speaker of Parji)'. And also http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/burrow/ entry 5507: Tamil "veḷḷāḷaṉ", "vēḷāḷaṉ", etc. 'man of the Vēḷāḷa caste', "vēḷāṇmai" 'agriculture, husbandry', etc., Telugu inscriptional period: "vēlāṇḍu" 'a cultivator', Telugu "velama" 'name of a caste, man of this caste'; 'agriculture'. But that said, we can't be sure if these are true cognates, as the Velama cognate is strictly limited to Tamil and it is possible that this term came to Andhra with the various branches of Cholas who ruled Andhra for a long time. Similarly for the word "Kapu" but the distant Gondi cognate and also the difference of meaning in Kannada and also terms like "kapuram" which mean 'dwelling, abode, etc.' even now in Telugu indicates that this may be an indigenous Telugu inheritance, but we can't be sure. Regarding "Reddy", DEDR has a grouping for that too at entry 54 but the origins are quite unclear, and there are indications that this was a telugisation of the Sanskrit Rashtrakuta, Rashtrika, etc. Tamil "iraṭṭi", "reṭṭi", 'name of a Telugu caste of cultivators'. Kannada "raḍḍi", "reḍḍi", "Reddi", 'a petty baron, title of a caste of Telugu cultivators'. Telugu "reḍ(ḍ)i", "raḍ(ḍ)i", 'name of a certain caste'; 'headman of a village'. Words "raṭṭaḍi", "raḍḍi" of Telugu inscriptions are compared along with Sanskrit Rashtrakuta, etc. with these words, in the DEDR. Even in current Andhra, there seems to a kind of understanding that Reddy was originally a title, such as like the 'headman of a village' meaning seen in Telugu but now it majorly refers to a caste. For "Kamma", there are several folk etymologies; some say they are called that because of the ancient name of the place of their origin, the central coastal districts mainly attached to the Krishna river, which was called Kamma Nadu, and some say it has something to do with a Telugu word for 'ear-ring', "kamma" after long origin myths involving a mother/deity (typically Goddess Lakshmi) whose ear-ring gets lost and the group of her sons who manage to retrieve it giving rise to Kammas and all that. While the first is obviously very strong compared to the second, we don't really know about the origin of their caste name.

Marriages typically are performed within the caste among these groups and outside of the "gotra" that I mentioned earlier. This is called caste endogamy and clan exogamy similar to that of the Brahmins but we can't be sure if these gotras really give any reliable information regarding the clan origins. But it is considered extremely taboo to marry someone of the same "gotra", much more than the occasional marrying outside caste, taking into account the modern period, in fact.

The standard template for a Telugu name is the following: "House-name" followed by given name followed by any caste-ending or title or anything. All Telugu people have the "house-name" (intiperu in Telugu); everyone without fail, and it looks like something similar to an English surname to me, as messed up as that importantly, with many "house-names" indicating the supposed ancestral place of origin, some indicating supposed ancestral profession, some indicating trees' names, rivers' names, fruits' names, things' names, etc. and some minority indicating a name of a paternal ancestor, etc. And the caste-ending or title can be like Shastri or Sharma for Brahmins, Reddy for Reddys, Chaudari (related to the word Chaudhury used in north India) for Kammas, Naidu for some Kapus and some Kammas also, Rao for Brahmins and some Velamas and Kammas very recently (and the Rao craze among Kammas and other such castes has begun in the 1950s and it went extinct by 1990s and none of these groups name their children Rao anymore mostly lol), Raju for the Raju caste of the Godavari districts, and Setty for the Komatis or Telugu Vaishyas. But it is very important to know that not all people have these tags. The percentage of people within a caste having these tags is very less, except for Reddys and the people of the Raju caste. It appears they universally have the caste-name endings, Reddys almost 100%. Perhaps that is why many north Indians with their deeply internalised surname model typically think of "Reddy" when they think of Telugu people lol.

So examples of Telugu names are like follows: Tanguturi Prakasam Pantulu (Tanguturu is supposed to be his ancestral village name and Tanguturi means 'of Tanguturu' (in the Dravidian languages, adjectives such as these must come before the nouns to make sense, unlike in English); Prakasam is his name and Pantulu meaning 'learned man' could be a title or just an individual case), Gali Janardhana Reddy (Gali, his housename means 'air' and Janardhan is his given name and Reddy is well, 'Reddy'), Gorantla Buchaiah Chowdary (don't know the meaning of his house-name Gorantla, Buchaiah (Bucchayya) is his given name and Chowdary is a caste-name indicating that he is a Kamma), Kancha Ilaiah (Kancha is his surname (edit: I forgot to add that I don't know the meaning of his house-name), Ilaiah (Ayilayya) is his given name and he doesn't have any thing indicating a caste name appended), Gadde Sindhura (Gadde is her house-name which apparently means 'throne' to me but am not sure, Sindhura is her given name and she doesn't have any tag indicating caste too). As I mentioned above, most of the names of Telugu people are of the type of the last two examples.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-18-2018, 01:53 AM
Punjab is a mess, oh boy where should I start....

khanabadoshi
02-18-2018, 02:44 AM
Punjab is a mess, oh boy where should I start....

Gotta start with something, your area, what you are most familiar with? I'm actually thinking to try and start a little database. So we can have some kind of reference to look at.

bol_nat
02-18-2018, 03:35 AM
Gotta start with something, your area, what you are most familiar with? I'm actually thinking to try and start a little database. So we can have some kind of reference to look at.

Who are Kanju? jatt, rajput or their own thing? Been hearing lot about them because of recent by-election in south punjab NA-154 Lodhran.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-18-2018, 03:54 AM
Gotta start with something, your area, what you are most familiar with? I'm actually thinking to try and start a little database. So we can have some kind of reference to look at.

-My Village region is Ropar-Anandpur Sahib-Nawan Shehr-Nangal. Technically it comes under Doaba area, but locals divide it between "Dooni" ( meaning between two) which is Nawansher Garhshankar region and Kandi ( means corner) which includes Anandpur Sahib and Nangal. The language is a blend between Pwadhi and Doabi with a little pahari influence.

-Region has one of the highest Hindu population, more like a divide between 50% Hindus and 50% Sikhs and some minority like Muslims and Christians.

-Biradaris: Pre partition it had whole villages of Muslim Rajputs (Ranas, Ghorewaha, Jaswal, Thakur), Muslim Gujjars, Muslim Jatts, Mirassis, Pathans (as in pashtun decent), Shahs, Arains and other Kaami biradaris like Muslim Tarkhans/Lohars/Telis etc.

Post partition the main biradaris among Sikhs are Jatts, (Nijjars, Jhajj, Sarao, Mann, Sandhu, Bains, Mahal, Sohal, Sahota, Sandhu and Dhillon), Sainis (Pabla, Tamber, Taggar), Ramgarhias (Kalyan, Kalsi, Sembhi, Nautey, Siyan, Ajimal, Khokhar,
Seehra/Sira, Bhambra/Bhimra/Bahmra, Mankoo, Saggu, Gaidu, Reehal, Baansal, Panesar, Rayat, Bahra, Bacchu, Maan, Sohal), Ravidassis (Chamars, Sheemar, Rattu), Rajputs (Tanwar, Palial, Saroa, Thakur, Jaswal, Attri, Parmar, Jhanjua, Rana),
Gujjars, Lubanas (Multani)

Hindus: Pandit (Bhardwaj, Sharma, modgil, shukla), Khatris (Sabharwal, Khanna, Chawla, Bedi, Sodhi, Sondh), Gujjars (Chaudhary), Tarkhans, Lohars, Khati Tarkhans (Jhangid, Burhai), Churahs and Baazigar (Nomads).

Muslims: Heer Gujjars, Mirassis, Dom (Banjaras), Rajputs (Very few).

khanabadoshi
02-18-2018, 04:39 AM
Who are Kanju? jatt, rajput or their own thing? Been hearing lot about them because of recent by-election in south punjab NA-154 Lodhran.

Lodhran is relatively new settlement, but that area is basically Rajput (old-school, speaking Saraiki), Rajput (new-school, Harayanvi-speaking), and Baloch (Saraiki-speaking). I was sure Kanju were Rajput or Harayanvi based on the name, but it looks like they claim to be Jatt (but I'll elaborate on my theories later in this post):




The Kanju are one five tribes, which include the Hattar, Noon and Uttera, that claim a common ancestry.

According to their traditions, the tribe claims descent from a Bhatti Rajput nobleman, a Rana Rajwadhan. The Rana lived in Ghazni, and then moved to Delhi in India. After some time, he moved to Bhatner.

In the 13th Century, the Rana moved to Chanab Kalyar, in what is now the Lodhran District. The ruler of the area was a Raja Bhutta. The Raja wanted to marry the daughter of Rajwadhan, who refused. As a result a battle took place, and the Raja was slain. The tract was then divided by Rajwadhan, and his five sons, Kalyar, Uttera, Kanju, Noon and Hattar. Each son was given an area to occupy, the Kanju were given Lodhran, where the bulk of the tribe is still found. Here the Kanju lived the life of pastoral nomads, similar in customs and traditions to other Bar nomads until the region was invaded by Baloch tribes in the 15th Century.

In the 19th Century, there land was seized for the purposes of colonization, and the nomadic Kanju were settled. The village of Alipur Kanju, near Kahror Pacca, is still a stronghold of the tribe, and Bohar Mailsi is also an important Kanju settlement.


Outside Lodhran District, Multan District, and Rahim Yar Khan districts in Punjab, Ghotki, Daherki and Nawab Shah districts in Sindh. The town of Muqeem Shah in Dera Ismail Khan District of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is large Kanju settlement.





Another source just mentions them as an agricultural tribe of Shahpur.

It's worth mentioning that in Bahawalpur tradition of these tribes: Bhattis, Bhuttas, and Wattus are all considered to be the same thing -- Bhatias from Jailsalmer.

They all claim to be Jatt but of a Rajput lineage/status (see end). So you can say that Kanju are a sub-clan of Bhattis, and whatever you consider Bhattis to be, is what they are.

Bhattis, Bhuttas, Langah, Sajrah, and Uttera are all people considered Jatts local to Southern Punjab and all in the same region we are talking about now. However, they are of varying backgrounds before current Jatt association or of certain "variations". I'll look more into this whole thing in a bit. But basically, the Langah are assumed to be of some kind of Afghan lineage via Sibi-Multan, but are now seen as Jatt and not seen in the same light as other people of Pashtun descent, like Durranis. Uttera are likely from Northern Sindh and are fairly old pastoralist in the region. Many of these groups were displaced from the region to areas north and later regrouped, due to Baloch incursions. However, I think this will only apply to pastoralist communities, as the area was fairly unsettled (no proper towns/cities built) until British era.

General rule-of-thumb though in Southern Punjab, if the don't call themselves Baloch or Pashtun, they probably call themselves Jatt (with many claiming to be Rajput with that). As far as locally things are concerned, I can say the common perception in my own family is we call everyone a Jatt, and Rajput is just seen as a Jatt that had associations/status within the historical Hindu kingdoms -- basically a Jatt from further east. I can definitely say in Multan if you ask people if they are Jatt or Rajput, many people say both. However, some people are sure they are just Rajput and others are sure they are just Jatt. So in that sense, you can see how these groups say they are Jatt and Rajput, because in a way Jatt is viewed like an ethnicity and Rajput is like the status. ie. Rajput are Jatts who had status in older kingdoms and thus got some money, educated, lived a city-life -- and this is the distinction, the are like Urban Jatts. This is my theory of why so many groups in the southern regions don't see much distinction between Rajput and Jatt. I can say for a fact, until I came to Anthrogenica, I didn't realize they were viewed as very separate things. My entire perception was that within Southern Punjab Rajputs and Jatts were just 2 "classes" of the same thing.

At least in lower Indus region, distinguishing what is "Jatt" and what is "Rajput" will be difficult. Personally, I prefer to call people Rajput who likely have origin from Rajputana -- only because it keeps things simpler for me, and its easier to distinguish this genetically.

I could could be mistaken. I'll look into this more later. But for now this is the information I could gather up on Lodhran.

Raza94
02-18-2018, 05:27 AM
Gonna go off MonkeyDLuffy's template a bit here
-From Jhang,Punjab in Pakistan which falls under what would be the Rechna Doab area
-Close to Faisalabad and between Multan and Faisalabad.
-From what I know pre partition there were some big Jatt clans there such as the Gills, Sidhu-Brar, Sials, etc.
-Founded by the Sial clan who are Jatt and claim Rajput ancestry from what I know
-Dominated by Sials, Awans, and "Syeds"
-Mostly Muslim population
-Dialect spoken there is called Jhangvi or sometimes called Rechnavi

Heir of Gandhara
02-18-2018, 06:35 AM
I will also add my two cents. Basically, the biggest problem one faces when studying British records is the way Jatts in many regions identified themselves. Jatt self-identification even confused the British record keepers. Very often, a portion of the same tribe would return themselves as Rajputs and other Jatts. Now what the British sometimes did to kind of verify the claims was to observe their marriage patterns. For example in one of the first census in Shahpur (Sargodha plus Khushab of today), both the Gondals and the Ranjhas returned themselves as Rajputs. But in the following years, the British themselves put the two tribes in the Jatt category after observing their marriage patterns which were mostly among the Jatt tribes.

When Punjabi people claim Rajput descent, the mostly trace descent from Bhattis, Punwar or Chauhans. But if all claims made in front of the British are accepted on face-value, the numbers would be just too high to be biologically possible.

Regarding the Bhattis, as per my knowledge, they are a very well established Rajput clan with origins in and around Jaisalmer, Rajasthan where they still reside. And their main branch in Punjab are the Manj-Alpials, Bhattis of Pindi Bhattian (Dulla Bhatti fame), the descendants of Guru Nanak Dev's friend Rai Bhullar Bhatti and also the lords of Patiala state who were overthrown by the Sidhu Jatt led Misl. The people I mention all claim to be Rajputs and are considered as such. Do we have any famous non-Rajput Bhattis because I do not think I have ever met one? Bhatti is the most common pretend identity assumed by a range of different peoples in Punjab probably because it is the most numerous/significant Rajput tribe in Punjab.

Now I have never met a Jatt who has ever claimed Rajput ancestry in real life. But if British records are anything to go by then the Sidhus of Patiala are one such people who tried claiming Bhatti origins to justify their claim to the estate; but they were not accepted as such by any real Rajputs in the region. However, since I am not very well versed in Bhatti history in Punjab so I cannot say exactly on what grounds their claims may have been rubbished.

But! My knowledge of my own tribe, post-conversion, is fairly decent so I will try to show how claims could be refuted. Some people belonging to the Ghumman Jatt clan claimed Janjua descent in front of the British and this is recorded in a Sialkot District Gazetteer. They claimed that they descend from one Raja Jodh who founded Makhiala in Jhelum. Now, so far their claim is plausible because they got the name of the founder and the town he founded both right. But after Jodh, they claim to have descended from a son whose name cannot be found in any Janjua family tree. And also they claimed that Raja Jodh's father was Raja Dalip, the founder of Delhi and this too is incorrect.

IMO if Jatt-Rajput confusion arises in West Punjab, we should first see what the clan self-identifies as. Then what their neighbors say about them. And finally, their marriage patterns. Between these three I think identification can become easier.

Do Jatts keep genealogical records, clan bards, Brahmin or Syed record keepers or any such things? What could be possible reasons for people making such claims? Could it be the controversial Martial Race Theory the British had in place? Apparently, people belonging to the 'martial races' were preferred even for non-military government jobs.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-18-2018, 07:02 AM
I will also add my two cents. Basically, the biggest problem one faces when studying British records is the way Jatts in many regions identified themselves. Jatt self-identification even confused the British record keepers. Very often, a portion of the same tribe would return themselves as Rajputs and other Jatts. Now what the British sometimes did to kind of verify the claims was to observe their marriage patterns. For example in one of the first census in Shahpur (Sargodha plus Khushab of today), both the Gondals and the Ranjhas returned themselves as Rajputs. But in the following years, the British themselves put the two tribes in the Jatt category after observing their marriage patterns which were mostly among the Jatt tribes.

When Punjabi people claim Rajput descent, the mostly trace descent from Bhattis, Punwar or Chauhans. But if all claims made in front of the British are accepted on face-value, the numbers would be just too high to be biologically possible.

Regarding the Bhattis, as per my knowledge, they are a very well established Rajput clan with origins in and around Jaisalmer, Rajasthan where they still reside. And their main branch in Punjab are the Manj-Alpials, Bhattis of Pindi Bhattian (Dulla Bhatti fame), the descendants of Guru Nanak Dev's friend Rai Bhullar Bhatti and also the lords of Patiala state who were overthrown by the Sidhu Jatt led Misl. The people I mention all claim to be Rajputs and are considered as such. Do we have any famous non-Rajput Bhattis because I do not think I have ever met one? Bhatti is the most common pretend identity assumed by a range of different peoples in Punjab probably because it is the most numerous/significant Rajput tribe in Punjab.

Now I have never met a Jatt who has ever claimed Rajput ancestry in real life. But if British records are anything to go by then the Sidhus of Patiala are one such people who tried claiming Bhatti origins to justify their claim to the estate; but they were not accepted as such by any real Rajputs in the region. However, since I am not very well versed in Bhatti history in Punjab so I cannot say exactly on what grounds their claims may have been rubbished.

But! My knowledge of my own tribe, post-conversion, is fairly decent so I will try to show how claims could be refuted. Some people belonging to the Ghumman Jatt clan claimed Janjua descent in front of the British and this is recorded in a Sialkot District Gazetteer. They claimed that they descend from one Raja Jodh who founded Makhiala in Jhelum. Now, so far their claim is plausible because they got the name of the founder and the town he founded both right. But after Jodh, they claim to have descended from a son whose name cannot be found in any Janjua family tree. And also they claimed that Raja Jodh's father was Raja Dalip, the founder of Delhi and this too is incorrect.

IMO if Jatt-Rajput confusion arises in West Punjab, we should first see what the clan self-identifies as. Then what their neighbors say about them. And finally, their marriage patterns. Between these three I think identification can become easier.

Do Jatts keep genealogical records, clan bards, Brahmin or Syed record keepers or any such things? What could be possible reasons for people making such claims? Could it be the controversial Martial Race Theory the British had in place? Apparently, people belonging to the 'martial races' were preferred even for non-military government jobs.

Have never met a single jatt in my life who claims rajput ancestry, although have a Haryana jat who claims maratha background for some reason. There are indeed some clan names shared by jatts and Rajputs (Tomar comes to my mind). I have met both Jat tomar and rajput tomar. In my opinion their genetic profile is different, Jatts are probably from Sindh, who moved North via kutch, rajasthan, haryana and punjab. Heck even Lohanas claim connection to rajputs, but have no connection genetically to them. The closest Punjabi group that Lohanas from sindh get are Khatris.

Lets be honest, in rajasthan Rajputs had power, so all other tribes liked to claim rajput connection, be it gujjars or ahirs or jats. Rajput dominated as kings majority of NW, hence locals would claim connection to them. Even in society Rajputs are still seen as forward caste while jats were avarna or shudra. You'll meet a Gill claiming certain ancestry, then you meet another Gill who does not. Different people claimed certain ancestries for better status in the society. Of course a group like jats which is not part of varna system, would more identify connection with Rajputs who are warfare like people, than Brahmins who are not.

MonkeyDLuffy
02-18-2018, 07:21 AM
https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/tag/muslim-rajputs-in-east-punjab/

Heir of Gandhara
02-18-2018, 07:35 AM
https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/tag/muslim-rajputs-in-east-punjab/

See how Gondals and Ranjhas returned themselves as Rajputs?

Okay maybe some backward Jatt tribe may have wanted to take Rajput identity to seek upward mobility, but why would the Sidhus of Patiala or the relatively well-established Ghummans? And why the preference for militaristic origins but not for artisinal or academic classes?

Martial Race theory could be a possible suspect.

khanabadoshi
02-18-2018, 08:55 AM
See how Gondals and Ranjhas returned themselves as Rajputs?

Okay maybe some backward Jatt tribe may have wanted to take Rajput identity to seek upward mobility, but why would the Sidhus of Patiala or the relatively well-established Ghummans? And why the preference for militaristic origins but not for artisinal or academic classes?

Martial Race theory could be a possible suspect.


https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/tag/muslim-rajputs-in-east-punjab/

I looked at the 1901 list and Bosan stood out to me. Pretty famous family in Multan. Now I knew 2 Bosans and they identified as Rajput ... but other lists that mention them say they are Jatt.

This becomes confusing in lower Indus, especially if you are talking Bahwalpur or near it ... many of those areas were firmly Rajput for a long time. Derawar fort doesn't let anyone forget hahah. So you have people that are in the geographic region to be either/or, and many of them have surnames that are unique to the region. They claim such-and-such names are sub-clans of more well-known clan names, but it's hard to know. It's not like the surnames Kanju, Bosan, Uttera, Langah, etc.. are prevalent beyond certain regions, so it becomes a toss-up. For many of them, the desire to associate with Rajputs is not necessarily a factor, because they are already living in historically Rajput territories. I mean if you walk east from Lodhran, you'll find yourself in Rajasthan, not Punjab.

My view currently regarding these "tehsil-specific" surnames is it could plausibly go any direction. There isn't enough to really say this is Jatt or that is Rajput. I for one, am curious to explore this whole Jatt+Rajput dynamic that seemingly exists as well. Even the user Noman who is Chauhan first thought he was Rajput and then corrected saying he is Jatt according to his family -- and that's far north in Kashmir. In my opinion, a Chauhan has got to be a Rajput, most likely. Nonetheless, the fact that this opinion of mine is not something "established" or "accepted" by his family or locale, only serves to magnify that the ambiguity/confusion/contradictions of smaller clans residing in both Rajput and Jatt regional folds, regarding their background, as entirely understandable.

tl;dr - I'm suggesting it's entirely plausible for some people of the same clan to think they are Rajput and others Jatt, without any societal pressure/motivation or colonial influence. I mean, in some ways we could be comparing apples and oranges here. Jatt is definitely an ethnic grouping, but are the Rajputs in question, as well? Rajput /= a person of Rajputana whose ancestor spoke Rajasthani necessarily. Perhaps some of these people are ethnically originally Jatt, but became Rajput by the caste/social-order of long ago? Who knows?

Heir of Gandhara
02-18-2018, 09:23 AM
Rajputs, as far as I understand, are a community who can trace their lineage to a King in the past. If this claim is accepted by most, well they are Rajputs. This identity was solidified around the time of Akbar and more people have not been accepted into the Rajput fold since then.

In short, if your ancestors could trace their lineage back to King by the 16th Century, you are a Rajput. The ambiguous clans, however, do not trace descent directly to a King but instead to an already established Rajput tribe.

What could be the reason for this? Well, many Rajput tribes had their own tribal traditions. I know in some detail about what the Chib, Janjua and the Gakhar(Rajput status but possibly not descent) laws were. Basically, if a member married a woman from outside his 'class' then he or his offspring would become what they called 'pata-daars.' With the Janjuas, such 'pata-daars' could stay back and cultivate 1/4th of the land they had previously held; but the family would be pushed out or made tenants after the original Janjua died. With Gakhars and the Chibs, the land was taken back immediately with the 'violaters' becoming tenants or pushed out at once. Now some of these 'pata-daars' may have left and found new identities somewhere else. But this cannot explain the sheer number of people the British encountered who claimed contradictory origins. So there must be more reasons.

soulblighter
02-18-2018, 03:53 PM
So perhaps from a genetic perspective, it is not useful to distinguish the different subgroups of Brahmins in South India, as these divisions are more theological/ideological and are less likely to manifest in any kind of observable pattern?
However, if the Brahmins of the North have clans, and some clans are more associated with particular ideologies, perhaps the Brahmins of the South may originally be from some of them. This may be mirrored by similar theological backgrounds. Maybe in that sense we may find genetic relationships?

As a starting point, it may be easier to start with distribution of haplogroups based on one's 23andme match list, and compare people who have known ancestry from same groups . If a pattern emerges, we can look at whether the subdivisions matter or don't. For example, I have about 230 "relatives" on 23andme, and their yDNA distribution is shown in the figure.
I don't know any of these relatives and cant trace even the closest matches to known genealogy and so I am going to say these matches are older than 6 generations. (ignore the haplogroup I, I should have removed them because of non-Indian paternal ancestry)

My ancestry on all 4 sides is from the Vadadesha Vadama Iyer group from Tamil Nadu/Kerala and the yDNA haplogroup distribution is shown in the chart below. Haplogroups of 4 grandparents are in my signature.


21579

bol_nat
02-18-2018, 05:16 PM
I will also add my two cents. Basically, the biggest problem one faces when studying British records is the way Jatts in many regions identified themselves. Jatt self-identification even confused the British record keepers. Very often, a portion of the same tribe would return themselves as Rajputs and other Jatts. Now what the British sometimes did to kind of verify the claims was to observe their marriage patterns. For example in one of the first census in Shahpur (Sargodha plus Khushab of today), both the Gondals and the Ranjhas returned themselves as Rajputs. But in the following years, the British themselves put the two tribes in the Jatt category after observing their marriage patterns which were mostly among the Jatt tribes.

When Punjabi people claim Rajput descent, the mostly trace descent from Bhattis, Punwar or Chauhans. But if all claims made in front of the British are accepted on face-value, the numbers would be just too high to be biologically possible.

Regarding the Bhattis, as per my knowledge, they are a very well established Rajput clan with origins in and around Jaisalmer, Rajasthan where they still reside. And their main branch in Punjab are the Manj-Alpials, Bhattis of Pindi Bhattian (Dulla Bhatti fame), the descendants of Guru Nanak Dev's friend Rai Bhullar Bhatti and also the lords of Patiala state who were overthrown by the Sidhu Jatt led Misl. The people I mention all claim to be Rajputs and are considered as such. Do we have any famous non-Rajput Bhattis because I do not think I have ever met one? Bhatti is the most common pretend identity assumed by a range of different peoples in Punjab probably because it is the most numerous/significant Rajput tribe in Punjab.

Now I have never met a Jatt who has ever claimed Rajput ancestry in real life. But if British records are anything to go by then the Sidhus of Patiala are one such people who tried claiming Bhatti origins to justify their claim to the estate; but they were not accepted as such by any real Rajputs in the region. However, since I am not very well versed in Bhatti history in Punjab so I cannot say exactly on what grounds their claims may have been rubbished.

But! My knowledge of my own tribe, post-conversion, is fairly decent so I will try to show how claims could be refuted. Some people belonging to the Ghumman Jatt clan claimed Janjua descent in front of the British and this is recorded in a Sialkot District Gazetteer. They claimed that they descend from one Raja Jodh who founded Makhiala in Jhelum. Now, so far their claim is plausible because they got the name of the founder and the town he founded both right. But after Jodh, they claim to have descended from a son whose name cannot be found in any Janjua family tree. And also they claimed that Raja Jodh's father was Raja Dalip, the founder of Delhi and this too is incorrect.

IMO if Jatt-Rajput confusion arises in West Punjab, we should first see what the clan self-identifies as. Then what their neighbors say about them. And finally, their marriage patterns. Between these three I think identification can become easier.

Do Jatts keep genealogical records, clan bards, Brahmin or Syed record keepers or any such things? What could be possible reasons for people making such claims? Could it be the controversial Martial Race Theory the British had in place? Apparently, people belonging to the 'martial races' were preferred even for non-military government jobs.

Gondals and Ranjhas has been known as jatts for long time historically, even in Mughal records. In 15th century Heer Ranjha story as well. They are mustly concentrated in Gondal bar between Chenab and Jhelum. British records of tribes shouldn't be taken at face value. They don't claim rajput ancestry. Remember for same British offcials Sher Shah was of rajput origin. This again have to do with British rule of hindi belt which was dominated by rajput kingdoms historically. British officials already had their mind made up about rajput origin theories before coming to punjab.

Heir of Gandhara
02-18-2018, 05:56 PM
Gondals and Ranjhas has been known as jatts for long time historically, even in Mughal records. In 15th century Heer Ranjha story as well. They are mustly concentrated in Gondal bar between Chenab and Jhelum. British records of tribes shouldn't be taken at face value. They don't claim rajput ancestry. Remember for same British offcials Sher Shah was of rajput origin. This again have to do with British rule of hindi belt which was dominated by rajput kingdoms historically. British officials already had their mind made up about rajput origin theories before coming to punjab.

Bol_Nat this was how the Ranjhas and the Gondals returned themselves as. In fact British force-changed their classification to Jatt. In the Shahpur Gazetteer, they even discuss this at lenght. I can share that with you if you want. I know my Ranjhas and Gondals bro. =]. I was brought up in Islamabad before making a move abroad for college.

bol_nat
02-19-2018, 01:34 AM
Bol_Nat this was how the Ranjhas and the Gondals returned themselves as. In fact British force-changed their classification to Jatt. In the Shahpur Gazetteer, they even discuss this at lenght. I can share that with you if you want. I know my Ranjhas and Gondals bro. =]. I was brought up in Islamabad before making a move abroad for college.

Yes they claim as per British sources but have we seen any gondal claiming to be rajput? There are some tribes who some times claim to be jatt or rajput but that's not the case with gondals who all claim to be jatts. Almost every tribe in British sources claim to be rajput origin.

https://i.imgur.com/Eh7fqOZ.png

bol_nat
02-19-2018, 02:11 AM
Bol_nat, are you counting the Western and Eastern Hills plus Jammu and Haryana in Punjab or not?

British mostly just wrote what they heard from the people and made it very clear through their language where they speculated. They were star record keeper and nobody can take this away from them. This Jatt-being-assigned-Rajput ancestry was mostly done by Denzil Ibbetson who was one of the early 'ethnographers.' Denzil's work was disproved on my accounts by the later day British District Gazetteer writers themselves. Gazetteers, mind you, were not some random hobby documents but rather were used for policy formulation by the Parliament in the U.K. So if you go through the Gazetteers it becomes apparent that it was the Jatts themselves who frequently were returning themselves as Rajputs and not the British doing that on their behalf. British themselves rubbished many such claims in the speculative notes they wrote after giving the origin stories as told by the people being interviewed.

Please note that I personally think the Martial Race theory could be a possible reason for this and not some sort of an inferiority complex.

Sikh Empire was a very short-lived one-man empire so if you want to really understand the society of Punjab post fall of the Mughals, you will have to study the time of Misls immediately predating the formation of the Sikh Empire. Now I myself have not read about the Misls in much detail, but since I am talking to you Bol_nat, I will just tell you something about your own district of Gujrat. Gujrat district was under Gakhars before the Misls captured it. Gakhars had captured it from the Chibs who, in turn, had captured it from the Afghans. Gujranwala next-door, too, was Sikh Misls vs Muslim Chattha Jatts vs Bhatti Rajputs.

If you tell me what you consider Punjab, I can maybe remind you of a few Rajput states therein.

Take this discussion to South Asian Institute if you guys want to discuss this more, please.

Hon tribe of Jhelum could be descendants of Hephthalites purely going by the name. The pronunciation rhymes with the English word 'goon' but ending with the letter r sound as in the Urdu word larki.

Chibs settled in Kharian after British rule for their support in 1857 mutiny from hills of Bhimbher, older generation chib accent is still pahari like. I don't think martial race theory have anything to do with because it was purely based on loyalty to British raj, not only rajputs were rewarded for being loyal. People who were loyal were rewarded and that's how they settled Chibs in Kharian. Before that chibs are mentioned as people who used to raid plain villages from hills and go back till they were once killed in large numbers. I've read about Ghakkhar chief who held Gujrat and later on Gujjar Singh defeated him or something along those lines, chibs are not mentioned.

All these were small time chief at best fighting after fall of mughal empire, can't really compare them with sikh kingdom. In haryana and other areas of hindi belt rajput kingdoms used to dominate and had large organised armies. In punjab you don't see that till sikh kingdom after misls united.

this is what I've read about chibs how they came to known as rajas.

"The Gujrat District (Punjab, Pakistan) Gazetteer of 1921 contains much information on the Chibs. It states the Hindu Chibs were a bandit tribe and its main objective was to levy blackmail from peaceful farming communities. The Chibs would raid villages and kill and rob innocent people until Chaudhry Yar Muhammad from the Pabbi range declared war against them. It is recorded in the Gujrat District Gazetteer that the Chaudhry made a village rest house chabootra (terrace) from the skulls of Chibs. Most of the Chibs were Hindus living in villages of Deva and Battala.[3]

The Muslim Chibs helped the English during the mutiny against British rule in the Jhelum Cantonment which had rebelled. When the mutineers were half way across the Jhelum river on an island, the Chibs and the British gave them battle and defeated the mutineers.[3]

The Chibs for their service to the British received the honorary title of 'Raja' and the area nearing Jhelum river crossing was given as jageer for their loyal service.
http://baisakalan.blogspot.com.es/p/blog-page.html

MonkeyDLuffy
02-19-2018, 03:56 AM
"The Gujrat District (Punjab, Pakistan) Gazetteer of 1921 contains much information on the Chibs. It states the Hindu Chibs were a bandit tribe and its main objective was to levy blackmail from peaceful farming communities. The Chibs would raid villages and kill and rob innocent people until Chaudhry Yar Muhammad from the Pabbi range declared war against them. It is recorded in the Gujrat District Gazetteer that the Chaudhry made a village rest house chabootra (terrace) from the skulls of Chibs. Most of the Chibs were Hindus living in villages of Deva and Battala.


That rendered a very grim image in my head.

Heir of Gandhara
02-19-2018, 05:02 AM
Yes they claim as per British sources but have we seen any gondal claiming to be rajput? There are some tribes who some times claim to be jatt or rajput but that's not the case with gondals who all claim to be jatts. Almost every tribe in British sources claim to be rajput origin.

https://i.imgur.com/Eh7fqOZ.png

Thanks for sharing the picture. And yes no Gondal or any other Jatt from Central Punjab that I have met in real life has claimed to be of Rajput descent. For Central Punjab Jatts like Varaich, Tarar, Gondal, Ranjha, Virk, Chattha, Cheema, Bajwa so an so forth, identities are certain. But as you go south of Okara, the confusion which apparently even the Central Punjab Jatts suffered from seems to have persisted. Ask a Wattoo who he is, ask a Sial and they will give you confused answers. Only today I witnessed in inter Wattoo debate on who they really were (sparked because of Imran Khan's new wife lol). We cannot be sure what their caste is because there seems to be a confusion that Jatts have had at least since the colonial times. Some like the Central Punjabi ones have settled it while others in the south have not.

And it is not logical to think that the same tribe could have a Rajput and a Jatt section. Does not make any sense. There are the real deals and then there may be imposters. Both cannot be valid given how clan groupings work in Punjab.




Chibs settled in Kharian after British rule for their support in 1857 mutiny from hills of Bhimbher, older generation chib accent is still pahari like. I don't think martial race theory have anything to do with because it was purely based on loyalty to British raj, not only rajputs were rewarded for being loyal. People who were loyal were rewarded and that's how they settled Chibs in Kharian. Before that chibs are mentioned as people who used to raid plain villages from hills and go back till they were once killed in large numbers. I've read about Ghakkhar chief who held Gujrat and later on Gujjar Singh defeated him or something along those lines, chibs are not mentioned.

All these were small time chief at best fighting after fall of mughal empire, can't really compare them with sikh kingdom. In haryana and other areas of hindi belt rajput kingdoms used to dominate and had large organised armies. In punjab you don't see that till sikh kingdom after misls united.

this is what I've read about chibs how they came to known as rajas.

"The Gujrat District (Punjab, Pakistan) Gazetteer of 1921 contains much information on the Chibs. It states the Hindu Chibs were a bandit tribe and its main objective was to levy blackmail from peaceful farming communities. The Chibs would raid villages and kill and rob innocent people until Chaudhry Yar Muhammad from the Pabbi range declared war against them. It is recorded in the Gujrat District Gazetteer that the Chaudhry made a village rest house chabootra (terrace) from the skulls of Chibs. Most of the Chibs were Hindus living in villages of Deva and Battala.[3]

The Muslim Chibs helped the English during the mutiny against British rule in the Jhelum Cantonment which had rebelled. When the mutineers were half way across the Jhelum river on an island, the Chibs and the British gave them battle and defeated the mutineers.[3]

The Chibs for their service to the British received the honorary title of 'Raja' and the area nearing Jhelum river crossing was given as jageer for their loyal service.
http://baisakalan.blogspot.com.es/p/blog-page.html

Regarding the Chibs and Gujrat in general: Sarai and its surroundings have been under the Chib sphere of influence. Gakhars crossed Jhelum in the 18th century because a war had been sparked between the two. This war started in Mirpur and spilled over into Gujrat where Sultan Muqarrab Khan Gakhar followed them. Now I am not sure, and yes you could be right, that the Gakhars captured Gujrat city itself from the Afghans, but they also hounded the Chibs around Sarai and ravaged their country up until Bhimber. Under these circumstances, I said Gakhars took Gujrat from Chibs. But I agree it is possible that the entire district, especially the cities, were not under Chib control.

On the Chib raids: well they were reduced to raiding by the Sikhs and the Gakhars before them. Chibs were pressed by the Sikh Empire and even before that life had been hard for them because of the Gakhars. Under these circumstances, the Chibs may have resorted to raiding. They used to descend on villages in the plains, demand tribute, most of the time they were paid, but on being refused they used to scalp their victims and line the village streets with them. But the raids were not stopped after some of them died in a raid. Britisher again go to some length on how the raids were stopped. The British essentially had to divide their homeland between Punjab and Jammu just so that they would have access to Police forces of two provinces. This is the reason the Pabbi hills region are part of Gujrat today, otherwise, the hills are an extension of the Jammu Hills and historically were a part of Jammu.

Interestingly, the Chibs the Chadhary claims to have killed belonged to the Hindu section of the tribe. Interesting how the same tribe had both Muslim and Hindu sections. Hindu section, however, was small and lived primarily in the villages the Chaudhary mentioned.

On the 1957 Mutiny: The Chibs, like the Janjuas and the Gakhars, joined the British could they had suffered a lot under Sikhs and were always opposed to them. Many of these tribes wanted to settle the score so hard that they actively stalked the Sikhs for the battle that is now called the Battle of Chillianwalia (and from word of mouth I have heard that many a times parties would go expecting this battle but it would not take place, wonder why though). This battle was a pyrrhic victory for EIC and essentially broke the back of the Sikh Empire. But even after this, the only Muslim Punjabi tribe who offered themselves to be deployed in Delhi to subjugate the mutineers were the Tiwanas. I don't think the Chibs took part in that campaign. The bulk of the soldiers used were basically the Sikhs who had switched sides and joined EIC en masse as soon as the Sikh Empire was vanquished.

The Chibs, only blocked the Jhelum mutineers when they crossed Jhelum river to their side and killed a few of them. Their crossing point was identified by a Janjua (I now think he should not have but this also deserves to be mentioned here). That's the extent of the help offered to the EIC by the Muslims of around Jhelum in 1857. The mutineers some argue were from Bengali and Bihari origins and many local people thought that they just wanted to replace the British and found their own empires in that region.

The Jagir around Serai that was given to the Chibs must have belonged to them before the Sikhs had dispossessed them from it. So it was not a gift. It was merely returned to its rightful heirs. British followed similar policies in other places too. The land that the loyal tribes got from the British was after India came directly under the crown. And those Jagirs were mostly allotted in Chaks or Canal towns that the British built across Punjab.

shudra
05-11-2018, 12:55 AM
So I guess Khatris have not been talked about that much, so here it goes.

Khatris are a Punjabi community that originated in the Potohar (Potwar) Plateau as a mercantile tribe/biraderi, mythologically they claim descent from the Vedic Kshatriyas.

They are separated into multiple groupings or houses (referred to as Ghar).

Dhai Ghar (House of 2.5) - 3 is considered unlucky in Punjab apparently:
Kapoor, Khanna, Malhotra

Char Ghar (House of 4) - another "Kshatriya" tribe is added to the previous House:
Seth

Bhara Ghar (House of 12) - separate house formed:
Sahgal/Sehgal, Tandon, Soni, Chopra, Dhawan, Batta, Bandha, Kakar, Mahindru, Vohra, Wadhaun, Wahi

Bhavanja Ghar (House of 52) - further tribes added:

Kukhrains (Khatris who branched out from the Bhavanja Ghar and settled in the Salt Range):
Anand, Bhasin, Chadha, Chandok,Gadhok, Gadok, Kohli, Sabbarwal, Sahni, Suri

Sarins (Khatris who branched out from the Bhavanja Ghar and spread into regions all over NW South Asia forming 300 clans, also the house from which the Sikh Gurus descended from):
Bedi, Sodhi, Trehan, Bhalla

Arora Khatris (now this is a clan who originated in Sindh and whose status as Khatri is disputed by other Khatris, however they self-identify as Khatri and are a large community):
Arora, Ahuja

I will add all the surnames soon, it's a long list.

Kulin
05-11-2018, 03:29 AM
So I guess Khatris have not been talked about that much, so here it goes.

Khatris are a Punjabi community that originated in the Potohar (Potwar) Plateau as a mercantile tribe/biraderi, mythologically they claim descent from the Vedic Kshatriyas.

They are separated into multiple groupings or houses (referred to as Ghar).

Dhai Ghar (House of 2.5) - 3 is considered unlucky in Punjab apparently:
Kapoor, Khanna, Malhotra

Char Ghar (House of 4) - another "Kshatriya" tribe is added to the previous House.
Tandon/Seth

Bhara Ghar (House of 12) - another 8 "Kshatriya" tribes are added to the previous House.


Bhavanja Ghar (House of 42) - further tribes added.

Kukhrains (Khatris who branched out from the Bhavanja Ghar and settled in the Salt Range)

Sarins (Khatris who branched out from the Bhavanja Ghar and spread into regions all over NW South Asia, also the house from which the Sikh Gurus descended from).

I will update the surnames soon.


Punjabi Khatris are probably the best looking people in South Asia on average.

bmoney
05-11-2018, 03:38 AM
Punjabi Khatris are probably the best looking people in South Asia on average.

Well Hindu Khatris dominate bollywood thats for sure

shudra
05-11-2018, 05:10 AM
Punjabi Khatris are probably the best looking people in South Asia on average.

Yeah I agree with that, although I would say that Jatt men tend to look better than their Khatri counterparts and Khatri women tend to look better than their Jatt counterparts.

Ryukendo
05-11-2018, 05:13 AM
Hi Bros,

I just saw this thread and I wanna say, I applaud this undertaking. I approve. B)

What a pleasure to see.

:cheer2::drum::cheer2::drum::dance::dance::cheer2: :drum::cheer2::drum::dance::dance::cheer2::drum::c heer2::drum::dance::dance:

Ryukendo
05-11-2018, 05:16 AM
Here is an article that may be of interest to you:

The promise of discovering population-specific disease-associated genes in South Asia (https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3917)

Here is a comment I left for someone on another site, just to demonstrate the data contained in this paper:


Reich et al sampled ~260 different caste populations in the study.

Of these, they found about 81 different groups with founder effects stronger than Ashkenazi jews and Finns, with some extreme examples like Gujjar expanding to >1 million people from just 100 persons or less in the last 100 generations.

They also have a table of cross-caste significantly elevated IBD sharing (Table S4), identified using the criteria "Groups with more than one match for high shared IBD across groups (greater than 3 times the IBD score of CEU and ~1/3 the founder event strength of Ashkenazi Jews)" (sounds reasonable) and among Brahmin groups they are:

1. Brahmin_Catholic_Goa, Brahmin_Catholic_Kumta, Brahmin_Catholic_Mangalore
2. Brahmin_Nepal, Brahmin_Uttarakhand
3. Brahmin_Karnataka, Havyaka_Brahmin

All others are non-Brahmin groups with Dravidians and especially Austroasiatics overrepresented.

I hope the tables in this paper may come in helpful for all of you for untying genealogical interconnections between castes.

Sapporo
05-11-2018, 05:55 AM
@shudra

Please be sure to include Thaper, Chawla, Sekhri, Johar, Oberoi, Gulati, Grover and Luthra in your next update. I'm also very curious about Garcha since it is supposedly used by both Khatris and Jatt Sikhs. Also, is Seth the same as Sethi?

Also, do you have any idea what percentage of Khatris are Sikh vs. Hindu? Or an estimate of what portion converted to Islam (and took on identities such as Shiekh)?

shudra
05-11-2018, 06:28 AM
shudra

Please be sure to include Thaper, Chawla, Sekhri, Johar, Oberoi, Gulati, Grover and Luthra in your next update. I'm also very curious about Garcha since it is supposedly used by both Khatris and Jatt Sikhs. Also, is Seth the same as Sethi?

Also, do you have any idea what percentage of Khatris are Sikh vs. Hindu? Or an estimate of what portion converted to Islam (and took on identities such as Shiekh)?

Sure thing, I'll probably update it on the weekend.

As far as I am aware and have checked, Garcha is purely a Jatt surname.

Seth, Sethi, Shethi are all the same, I remember reading it derives from Shresthi which means "high-ranking" in Sanskrit.

There are 2.3 million Hindu Khatris, 1.1 million Muslim Khatris, and 0.3 million Sikh Khatris. So there's around 3.7 million Khatris in total, which is really a small population size compared to let's say the Jatts, who number more than 60 million in total. Khatris also seem to be the most over-represented group in India in terms of their influence.

kush
05-11-2018, 07:47 AM
.....

pegasus
05-11-2018, 12:11 PM
Punjabi Khatris are probably the best looking people in South Asia on average.

I think you can find more attractive people on average in other regions of NW South Asia, I assure you even khava sellers in Kashmir are more attractive, but they don't have the same resources and connections. Also Khatris who are essentially Western Punjabis ,but as a result of partition, a vast potential of talent never gets to see the light of day. If you look at obituaries of past actors they are either from Western Punjab or KPK.
The Khatris are urbanized people and have an utter dominance of the entertainment industry as a result of incestous nepotism, which acts like a glass ceiling , so thats why you see Kapoors being recycled to infinity and the non Kapoor Khatris being slotted on tv serials.

Though I agree they are the WASPs of contemporary South Asia as a result of their monopoly of the entertainment industry, so that becomes a gold standard for other communities from my observation.

The exception to this have been the "Khans" ie admixed Pashtun types who have carved out their own niche, but its still a small portion compared to the hegemony the Khatris have.

Kambo
05-11-2018, 09:53 PM
Great thread. 21st century is going to affect 19th century definitions though.

Kulin
05-12-2018, 01:21 AM
Feel like this post belongs to this thread. I'll also cover Kulin/Bengali Brahmins and their gotras/surnames, and also Bengali Kayasthas later.



No, Patels don't have Brahmin origin, and very few Brahmins (only one community) normally use 'Patel' as a title. I believe 'Patidar' is the current name of the community, formerly called Kanbi, and they usually (not always) use 'Patel' as a title, meaning holders of 'Patis' (or land). There are other equivalents to the name, Patel in many areas of South Asia for e.g., the Bengali equivalent of the feudal title is 'Patowari', meaning the same thing.

The Patidar/Kanbi community is divided into the following groups (as shown in the chart), and are mainly separated by location and patron deities/temples, while 3rd order divisions called 'Gol' refer to cluster of villages that may marry with each other, with each individual village comprising their 'gotra' (patrilineal clan).
http://i66.tinypic.com/aac7l4.jpg

agent_lime
05-16-2018, 07:57 AM
I think you can find more attractive people on average in other regions of NW South Asia, I assure you even khava sellers in Kashmir are more attractive, but they don't have the same resources and connections. Also Khatris who are essentially Western Punjabis ,but as a result of partition, a vast potential of talent never gets to see the light of day. If you look at obituaries of past actors they are either from Western Punjab or KPK.
The Khatris are urbanized people and have an utter dominance of the entertainment industry as a result of incestous nepotism, which acts like a glass ceiling , so thats why you see Kapoors being recycled to infinity and the non Kapoor Khatris being slotted on tv serials.

Though I agree they are the WASPs of contemporary South Asia as a result of their monopoly of the entertainment industry, so that becomes a gold standard for other communities from my observation.

The exception to this have been the "Khans" ie admixed Pashtun types who have carved out their own niche, but its still a small portion compared to the hegemony the Khatris have.

There is a definite hegemony of Khatris on Bollywood. And there are definitely a lot of attractive people in North India. Some people from Haryana, Punjab, Himachal, J&K and Rajasthan. I would contend a lot of these communities ostracize women that go into entertainment. It's common for Punjabis; and not looked down upon as badly. Also there is selective looks pressure with the Khatris. Even my dad in the early 80's had a chance to pick an attractive wife, who by that age's standards were dating for a year before marriage. Because of the upward mobility and money, looks have mattered a lot more. My bania friends for instance will still marry more for money, than my parents in the 80's. This has led to some very attractive people in my extended family, every 2nd, 3rd woman is as good looking as a Bollywood actress, men are the same. With other communities it is rarer to find attractive people (probably 20%). Of course this is all a hypothesis.

pegasus
05-17-2018, 10:32 PM
There is a definite hegemony of Khatris on Bollywood. And there are definitely a lot of attractive people in North India. Some people from Haryana, Punjab, Himachal, J&K and Rajasthan. I would contend a lot of these communities ostracize women that go into entertainment. It's common for Punjabis; and not looked down upon as badly. Also there is selective looks pressure with the Khatris. Even my dad in the early 80's had a chance to pick an attractive wife, who by that age's standards were dating for a year before marriage. Because of the upward mobility and money, looks have mattered a lot more. My bania friends for instance will still marry more for money, than my parents in the 80's. This has led to some very attractive people in my extended family, every 2nd, 3rd woman is as good looking as a Bollywood actress, men are the same. With other communities it is rarer to find attractive people (probably 20%). Of course this is all a hypothesis.

Are Banias Dalit/Chamars ? I am not familiar with this group but I know they score like them. I think selective breeding is common and I think you are right, the combination of being a liberalized community probably contributes to this. So its not just looks but the sort of urbanized group with a flamboyant culture that makes them stand out. I think 2 other groups which sort of occupy that cline would be Parsees and Ismaili Khojas but these are groups which the mainstream society does not identify with IMO.

bmoney
05-18-2018, 01:13 AM
Are Banias Dalit/Chamars ? I am not familiar with this group but I know they score like them. I think selective breeding is common and I think you are right, the combination of being a liberalized community probably contributes to this. So its not just looks but the sort of urbanized group with a flamboyant culture that makes them stand out. I think 2 other groups which sort of occupy that cline would be Parsees and Ismaili Khojas but these are groups which the mainstream society does not identify with IMO.

Yeah they tend to be seen as not Indian enough

Baniyas + Marwaris do score like mid-caste South Indians AASI wise, but with higher steppe. They are not Dalit or Chamar, and generally considered forward caste

They are known for being successful in business, Lakshmi Mittal, Ambani, Bobby Jindal, famous Aggarwals etc

Kulin
05-18-2018, 01:37 AM
Are Banias Dalit/Chamars ? I am not familiar with this group but I know they score like them. I think selective breeding is common and I think you are right, the combination of being a liberalized community probably contributes to this. So its not just looks but the sort of urbanized group with a flamboyant culture that makes them stand out. I think 2 other groups which sort of occupy that cline would be Parsees and Ismaili Khojas but these are groups which the mainstream society does not identify with IMO.

"Baniya" is the modern word used for various groups involved in trade, synonymous with communities belonging to the "Vaishya" varna. So, you can have diverse groups from Lohana to Agarwals to Maheshwaris etc that are considered Bania.

pegasus
05-18-2018, 02:03 AM
Yeah they tend to be seen as not Indian enough

Baniyas + Marwaris do score like mid-caste South Indians AASI wise, but with higher steppe. They are not Dalit or Chamar, and generally considered forward caste

They are known for being successful in business, Lakshmi Mittal, Ambani, Bobby Jindal, famous Aggarwals etc

Interesting, those people all look very Gujarati Patel to me, which makes sense genetically they are similar too.

poi
05-18-2018, 03:20 AM
Here is an article that may be of interest to you:

The promise of discovering population-specific disease-associated genes in South Asia (https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3917)

Here is a comment I left for someone on another site, just to demonstrate the data contained in this paper:



I hope the tables in this paper may come in helpful for all of you for untying genealogical interconnections between castes.

That paper was enlightening. After reading the paper's suppliment I found out that my ethnicity is very much inbred. Using the GedMatch and other RoH tools, my parents are 4.9 generations apart. My wife's parents are 4.7 generations apart. Me and my wife are related within 4.9 generations. This is despite us having 5 generation ban on marriages. Close enough I guess. On genealogy charts, commissioned by our family a while back, they are not related at all up to 7 generation. So much for the here-say reliability. No records exist beyond that except for our Gotra(patrilineal name).

bmoney
05-18-2018, 04:05 AM
Most inbred sampled pops (more than Ashkenazi Jews) according to the study:

Group Sample size IBD score IBD rank FST rank Drift rank Census size Location
Gujjar 5 11.6 19 33 46 1,078,719 Jammu and Kashmir
Baniyas 7 9.6 24 22 18 4,200,000 Uttar Pradesh
Pattapu Kapu 4 9.5 25 24 21 13,697,000 Andhra Pradesh
Vadde 3 9.2 26 30 26 3,695,000 Andhra Pradesh
Yadav 12 4.4 48 87 67 1,124,864 Puducherry
Kshatriya Aqnikula 4 2.4 75 109 NA 12,809,000 Andhra Pradesh
Naga 4 2.3 76 NA NA 1,834,483 Nagaland
Kumhar 27 2.3 77 35 197 3,144,000 Uttar Pradesh
Reddy 7 2.0 84 129 106 22,500,000 Telangana
Brahmin Nepal 4 1.9 86 63 141 4,206,235 Nepal
Kallar 27 1.7 94 87 73 2,426,929 Tamil Nadu
Brahmin Manipuri 17 1.6 99 NA NA 1,544,296 Manipur
Arunthathiyar 18 1.3 108 109 81 1,192,578 Tamil Nadu
Vysya 39 1.2 110 46 35 3,200,000 Telangana

poi
05-18-2018, 04:49 AM
Most inbred sampled pops (more than Ashkenazi Jews) according to the study:

Group Sample size IBD score IBD rank FST rank Drift rank Census size Location
Gujjar 5 11.6 19 33 46 1,078,719 Jammu and Kashmir
Baniyas 7 9.6 24 22 18 4,200,000 Uttar Pradesh
Pattapu Kapu 4 9.5 25 24 21 13,697,000 Andhra Pradesh
Vadde 3 9.2 26 30 26 3,695,000 Andhra Pradesh
Yadav 12 4.4 48 87 67 1,124,864 Puducherry
Kshatriya Aqnikula 4 2.4 75 109 NA 12,809,000 Andhra Pradesh
Naga 4 2.3 76 NA NA 1,834,483 Nagaland
Kumhar 27 2.3 77 35 197 3,144,000 Uttar Pradesh
Reddy 7 2.0 84 129 106 22,500,000 Telangana
Brahmin Nepal 4 1.9 86 63 141 4,206,235 Nepal
Kallar 27 1.7 94 87 73 2,426,929 Tamil Nadu
Brahmin Manipuri 17 1.6 99 NA NA 1,544,296 Manipur
Arunthathiyar 18 1.3 108 109 81 1,192,578 Tamil Nadu
Vysya 39 1.2 110 46 35 3,200,000 Telangana

Here is the graphics from the paper... shows the scale visually.

23245

pegasus
05-18-2018, 05:00 AM
More inbred than Ashkenazi Jews is REALLY REALLY bad , as this community has a lot of genetic diseases. What would even compound this more is first cousin marriages , which some groups, especially in Pakistan do and it is leading to horrible genetic disorders among newborns and children. It seems very elevated among Mirpuris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aAD0yJ3SdQ

agent_lime
05-18-2018, 05:56 AM
Are Banias Dalit/Chamars ? I am not familiar with this group but I know they score like them. I think selective breeding is common and I think you are right, the combination of being a liberalized community probably contributes to this. So its not just looks but the sort of urbanized group with a flamboyant culture that makes them stand out. I think 2 other groups which sort of occupy that cline would be Parsees and Ismaili Khojas but these are groups which the mainstream society does not identify with IMO.

They are forward Indian trading class. Usually well off. Very money minded people.


"Baniya" is the modern word used for various groups involved in trade, synonymous with communities belonging to the "Vaishya" varna. So, you can have diverse groups from Lohana to Agarwals to Maheshwaris etc that are considered Bania.

The common UP variant is Baniyas are the most common. I keep saying they all look the same to me. Makes sense with how inbred they are. Women especially, I can just tell by looking at them.

Lohana's are rare to see in Delhi. They look similar to the Khatris, which makes sense because they have the same genetic makeup.

Aggarwals are almost as bad, though the Punjabi Aggarwals do have some attractive people.


Interesting, those people all look very Gujarati Patel to me, which makes sense genetically they are similar too.

UP Banias have a very specific look. Once you make friends with them you start noticing.


IMO the other groups kind of similar to Khatris with the Caucasian worshiping in Bollywood.
- Various North Indian Brahmins from UP, Haryana, Punjab. These groups are usually conservative.
- High, Mid castes Hindus from Uttarachal and Himachal. They do have a little more East Asian but attractive people. They are also more liberal leaning. But no clout in Bollywood.
- Kashmiri Pandits. Conservative, but starting to become more common in Bollywood.
- Haryanvi Jaats. Their men are arguably bigger and stronger looking than the Khatris. Women can also be pretty. Also starting to break into Bollywood.
- Punjabi Jatt. Also usually good looking people.
- Rajasthani Rajputs. They have some clout in Bollywood. Can be good looking as well.

tipirneni
05-22-2018, 08:28 PM
They are forward Indian trading class. Usually well off. Very money minded people.



The common UP variant is Baniyas are the most common. I keep saying they all look the same to me. Makes sense with how inbred they are. Women especially, I can just tell by looking at them.

Lohana's are rare to see in Delhi. They look similar to the Khatris, which makes sense because they have the same genetic makeup.

Aggarwals are almost as bad, though the Punjabi Aggarwals do have some attractive people.



UP Banias have a very specific look. Once you make friends with them you start noticing.


IMO the other groups kind of similar to Khatris with the Caucasian worshiping in Bollywood.
- Various North Indian Brahmins from UP, Haryana, Punjab. These groups are usually conservative.
- High, Mid castes Hindus from Uttarachal and Himachal. They do have a little more East Asian but attractive people. They are also more liberal leaning. But no clout in Bollywood.
- Kashmiri Pandits. Conservative, but starting to become more common in Bollywood.
- Haryanvi Jaats. Their men are arguably bigger and stronger looking than the Khatris. Women can also be pretty. Also starting to break into Bollywood.
- Punjabi Jatt. Also usually good looking people.
- Rajasthani Rajputs. They have some clout in Bollywood. Can be good looking as well.

“Tollywood has a style which Bollywood cannot match,”

23348
http://www.telugunow.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Tollywood-Heroes.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_LGJSeehFA
While Bollywood captures the metropolitan theme with finesse, the aura of fun that surrounds Tollywood movies is unattainable to an outsider. The entertainment masala (spice) culture of Tollywood movies is impossible to compete with. Striving successfully since decades, Tollywood has not only given the society a plethora of royal classics, but has also inspired several Bollywood blockbusters.Many bollywood blockbusters are adapted from telugu movies,which are remaked like wanted,khiladi,singham,ghajini and list is endless.
From Pokkiri to Wanted, we've been swept away by the magic of both Tollywood and Bollywood.

Most common Haplogroups are R2, H1, L1, R1. Out of all places in India Tollywood most connected to Indus Valley Civilization & all the ruling elite over the ages.

Queenamber
05-22-2018, 09:05 PM
Can someone tell us a bit about the background of the Jatt sikhs?? Like what are they known for and where is their ancestors from exactly ? Many thanks.

tipirneni
05-22-2018, 09:46 PM
Can someone tell us a bit about the background of the Jatt sikhs?? Like what are they known for and where is their ancestors from exactly ? Many thanks.

Some of them came from South India similar to some Rajputs & mixed up with newer Saka/Hun outlier population & later expanded in 18th CE.

Kulin
05-22-2018, 10:43 PM
“Tollywood has a style which Bollywood cannot match,”

23348
http://www.telugunow.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Tollywood-Heroes.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_LGJSeehFA
While Bollywood captures the metropolitan theme with finesse, the aura of fun that surrounds Tollywood movies is unattainable to an outsider. The entertainment masala (spice) culture of Tollywood movies is impossible to compete with. Striving successfully since decades, Tollywood has not only given the society a plethora of royal classics, but has also inspired several Bollywood blockbusters.Many bollywood blockbusters are adapted from telugu movies,which are remaked like wanted,khiladi,singham,ghajini and list is endless.
From Pokkiri to Wanted, we've been swept away by the magic of both Tollywood and Bollywood.

Most common Haplogroups are R2, H1, L1, R1. Out of all places in India Tollywood most connected to Indus Valley Civilization & all the ruling elite over the ages.



I've watched Nenokkadine, Bommarillu and of course Bahubali I/II in terms of Telugu films.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-22-2018, 11:45 PM
Some of them came from South India similar to some Rajputs & mixed up with newer Saka/Hun outlier population & later expanded in 18th CE.

What? Can you please post the source?

bmoney
05-23-2018, 12:38 AM
Some of them came from South India similar to some Rajputs & mixed up with newer Saka/Hun outlier population & later expanded in 18th CE.

The only clan/tribe linked with South India are the Solankis.

You'll need a lot of evidence for Jatts

jb24
05-23-2018, 09:31 AM
Can someone tell us a bit about the background of the Jatt sikhs?? Like what are they known for and where is their ancestors from exactly ? Many thanks.

For your first question rather than this forum, I think it would also be best to ask your family members or friends and relatives, and/or do some reading on the web.

tipirneni
05-23-2018, 11:33 AM
The only clan/tribe linked with South India are the Solankis.

You'll need a lot of evidence for Jatts

No, there is a very deep connection with many Royal clans from Rajput, Marathas, East India/Central India Soldiers, Kammas due to wide dispersal during late Iron age, Mauryan time 1400-200BC . Many lastname/clan names will match between Kamma & Marathas due to common origin during Satavahana times 400BC-400CE. The Royal capital of Amaravati was in Maharastra and in Andhra. Andhras had strong relations with early Sakas in MP & Sakya population in NE UP. You see higher CE Scythian/Steppe & Central Indian Tribal ancient admixture in Kammas compared to similar populations due to this. in Marathas ancient lineages got diluted due to Ahirs taking over Western part of Satavahana empire. Many marvadis from Rajasthan have similar admixture

my MDLP k16
1 Marwadi (Rajasthan) 2.98

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.5% Marwadi (Rajasthan) + 14.5% GujaratiD (Gujarat) @ 2.49
2 83.7% Marwadi (Rajasthan) + 16.3% GujaratiC (Gujarat) @ 2.57
3 88.2% Marwadi (Rajasthan) + 11.8% Punjabi (Lahore) @ 2.66

1 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu + GujaratiD_Gujarat + Marwadi_Rajasthan + Marwadi_Rajasthan @ 2.499071
2 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu + GujaratiD_Gujarat + Marwadi_Rajasthan + Scheduled_Caste_Tamil_Nadu @ 2.665988
3 GujaratiC_Gujarat + Marwadi_Rajasthan + Marwadi_Rajasthan + Marwadi_Rajasthan @ 2.735306

also some mtDNA markers like 11368C 16093A only I see in Marwadi U2 & Kamma U2

However Since Jatts don't have all these since they probably formed later from earlier population like Khatri & Some Royal lineages & Gujjar Saka/Hun Outliers.

Varun R
05-25-2018, 02:33 AM
A quick pie graph of Y-haplos of my 23andMe DNA Relatives (Mostly Iyers). N = 148. The 'Other' category comprises 2-Q, 1-N-M231, and 1-O2b.

23418

khanabadoshi
05-25-2018, 02:38 AM
A quick pie graph of Y-haplos of my 23andMe DNA Relatives (Mostly Iyers). N = 148. The 'Other' category comprises 2-Q, 1-N-M231, and 1-O2b.

23418

Have you been able to get the Iyer yHG results from the studies? I am going to post the kits to gedmatch for you soon.

poi
05-25-2018, 02:38 AM
A quick pie graph of Y-haplos of my 23andMe DNA Relatives (Mostly Iyers). N = 148. The 'Other' category comprises 2-Q, 1-N-M231, and 1-O2b.

23418

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13241-23andme-top-20-closest-male-relatives-y-and-mtdna

khanabadoshi
05-25-2018, 02:44 AM
Here is the graphics from the paper... shows the scale visually.

23245

OMG.... man that hit me like a ton of bricks. Like Pegasus mentioned, the amount of diseases in Ashkenazis is already so high (my friend Ross, whose results I post, is a great example of that)…. and these South Asian groups are putting that to shame.
I mean with numbers like these, its possible the entire prevalence of diabetes in South Asia is completely genetically-mediated.

agent_lime
05-25-2018, 08:33 AM
OMG.... man that hit me like a ton of bricks. Like Pegasus mentioned, the amount of diseases in Ashkenazis is already so high (my friend Ross, whose results I post, is a great example of that)…. and these South Asian groups are putting that to shame.
I mean with numbers like these, its possible the entire prevalence of diabetes in South Asia is completely genetically-mediated.

Is cousin marriage as bad in Pakistan as it is the UK? It's already an epidemic in the UK. I feel bad for these kids born with no chance to succeed in life, the Banias, and Gujjars included.

There is a documentary that I saw a while ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkxuKe2wOMs

MonkeyDLuffy
05-25-2018, 02:13 PM
Is cousin marriage as bad in Pakistan as it is the UK? It's already an epidemic in the UK. I feel bad for these kids born with no chance to succeed in life, the Banias, and Gujjars included.

There is a documentary that I saw a while ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkxuKe2wOMs

Among bhapas I've seen a trend of inbreeding and cousin marriage as well. They're the only among Sikhs who marry within close relatives sometimes. I wonder what made them do it, in Pakistan and Afghanistan Sikhs and Hindus are inbred Because lack of population, but yet I have seen 6-7 cases of cousin marriages in family friends bhapa families.

prashantvaidwan
05-25-2018, 02:21 PM
Some of them came from South India similar to some Rajputs & mixed up with newer Saka/Hun outlier population & later expanded in 18th CE.

Really? What are you smoking ?

pegasus
05-25-2018, 07:08 PM
“Tollywood has a style which Bollywood cannot match,”

23348
http://www.telugunow.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Tollywood-Heroes.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_LGJSeehFA
While Bollywood captures the metropolitan theme with finesse, the aura of fun that surrounds Tollywood movies is unattainable to an outsider. The entertainment masala (spice) culture of Tollywood movies is impossible to compete with. Striving successfully since decades, Tollywood has not only given the society a plethora of royal classics, but has also inspired several Bollywood blockbusters.Many bollywood blockbusters are adapted from telugu movies,which are remaked like wanted,khiladi,singham,ghajini and list is endless.
From Pokkiri to Wanted, we've been swept away by the magic of both Tollywood and Bollywood.

Most common Haplogroups are R2, H1, L1, R1. Out of all places in India Tollywood most connected to Indus Valley Civilization & all the ruling elite over the ages.

Lawd gimme strength.

If Style means having Castro district handle bar moustaches and portly 40+ year old men acting acting like their college sophmores, lol.
Also how were you able to connect a civilization which vanished almost 4000 years ago with what looks like a very cheesy and camp modern day movie industry?

tipirneni
05-25-2018, 10:31 PM
Lawd gimme strength.

If Style means having Castro district handle bar moustaches and portly 40+ year old men acting acting like their college sophmores, lol.
Also how were you able to connect a civilization which vanished almost 4000 years ago with what looks like a very cheesy and camp modern day movie industry?

What is so cheesy about it ? Does it look like Basic Instinct like movie ? There are some if you want that even have macho lines mixed with romance.

kush
05-26-2018, 12:04 AM
.....

bmoney
05-26-2018, 01:57 AM
A quick pie graph of Y-haplos of my 23andMe DNA Relatives (Mostly Iyers). N = 148. The 'Other' category comprises 2-Q, 1-N-M231, and 1-O2b.

23418

The most interesting thing about Iyers in terms of y-dna is the G2a proportion.

I don't think I've seen anything like it in any ethnic group in South Asia outside the Kalash, Brahui and the Pashtuns.

Also your relatives R1a% is higher than studies which have found 27.6% and 30% in Iyers and Iyengars.

As you are half Karnataka Brahmin, I think there might be some Iyer caste-substructure and regional effects explaining that

tipirneni
05-26-2018, 05:04 AM
The most interesting thing about Iyers in terms of y-dna is the G2a proportion.

I don't think I've seen anything like it in any ethnic group in South Asia outside the Kalash, Brahui and the Pashtuns.

Also your relatives R1a% is higher than studies which have found 27.6% and 30% in Iyers and Iyengars.

As you are half Karnataka Brahmin, I think there might be some Iyer caste-substructure and regional effects explaining that

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050269
tamil castes that have ancient migrations like Nadar, Maravar Parayar have GM201 around 8-10% & About 6% of the samples from Sri Lanka and Malaysia were reported as haplogroup G. Exact subclade is not published

anthroin
05-26-2018, 11:58 PM
Here is the graphics from the paper... shows the scale visually.

23245

I did not know about this earlier and when I looked at it yesterday, I found that the Telangana and Andhra Pradesh endogamous groups are of the following nature with respect to traditional professions:

1. Pattapu Kapu- traditionally fishing; not sure what they do now; it may be interesting that the Telugu dictionaries (http://www.andhrabharati.com/dictionary/) have an entry only for the term పట్టపువాడు (paṭṭapuvāḍu), 'a man who is associated with the holding [of fish] (a person who belongs to this caste)', 'A Tamil fisherman living on the seashore (as used in Nellore dialect according to the 1970 మాండలిక పదకోశము (māṇḍalika padakōśamu) (dictionary of dialectal vocabulary))', etc. without the tag "Kapu" present. "Kapu" in Telugu generally signifies some sort of a 'peasant' so may be these folks appended that tag later on as they aspired to go up the social ladder. Their population (13,697,000) is also quite high compared to Bestas, who are the closest related group to them (? according to the Supplementary Table 4), and are at 60,858. The Bestas also have a high IBD score with respect to Finns, very close to that of Pattapu Kapus (seems very strange seeing me using genetics terminology like this lol). Perhaps these both groups share the same founder event (lol I don't very properly understand what this means), and then Pattapu Kapus further separated and had the streak of aspiring for higher social status and sort of "peasantised" their caste name and gradually increased their population. And both the Pattapu Kapu and Besta samples were collected in Nellore district, which appears to be their native place.

2. Agnikula Kshatriya: The 1978 తెలుగు వ్యుత్పత్తి కోశం (telugu vyutpatti kōśaṁ) (Telugu etymological dictionary) already has an entry for this term for which it gives a meaning of పల్లెకార్లు (pallekārlu) which apparently was the older name for this caste and which I had no clue, whatsoever, about, so I googled the word "palle" and landed on this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanniyar) Wikipedia page; according to it, the Tamil Vanniyar (earlier known as palli apparently) were traditionally agricultural labourers, and to me, the Telugu word and the Tamil word appear to be related (whatever the etymology is and whatever the source language is- Tamil or Telugu- likely Tamil) though I'm not sure about it. Considering it to be the case, probably the Telugu counterparts were also traditionally agricultural labourers but seeing the somewhat recent Sanskritisation (see the very Sanskritic form of the name "Agnikula Kshatriya") and evidence for high upward mobility like their Tamil counterparts, they probably engage in all urban professions now. The samples of this group were collected at Machilipatnam in Krishna district and the group also seems native to the Krishna and Godavari districts as far as I could gather. The Supplementary Table 4 does not include this group so it appears that they are not very closely related to other groups from the data set. I thought may be I could compare if they were any closely related to Vanniyar of Tamil Nadu but that group is not there in the data, it appears.

3. Vadde: traditionally stonemasonry- tank-building specifically according to the Telugu dictionaries. According to this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaddera) Wikipedia page, "many have had to change to agricultural labouring." The article also says,

The effects of mechanisation, usually financed and run by higher caste groups, has caused this change and government recognition of the issues has led to them being designated as an Other Backward Class.
The samples were collected in Anantapur district and according to the Supplementary Table 4, they are most closely related to a group called Korava, whose samples were collected in Dharwad in Karnataka. I don't know if there are any native places for these groups but at least for the Vadde who were traditionally stonemasons, Deccan seems likely. I could not gather much information about Korava as well- at least as it pertains to Karnataka; this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koravar) Wikipedia page says that they "were primarily involved in salt trade" and were "classed as a criminal tribe by the British authorities." No idea why. They are apparently known as Erukala in Andhra Pradesh, as they were engaged in fortune-telling profession there (the word eruka means 'information/knowledge' in Telugu). Even according to the Supplementary Table 4, the Korava group appears most closely related to Korava, Oddari (samples collected in Warangal; the name probably similar to Vadde), Vadde, and Yerukali (samples collected in Warangal).

4. The Reddy of Telangana at 22.5 million apparently are supposed to be one of the native peasant groups of Telangana traditionally. There seems to be a high possibility that a significant portion of the peasants of Telangana owe their origins to migrations of peasants from the Krishna-Godavari delta after Kakatiya period began with its political centre in Telangana and Telangana and Rayalaseema began to be increasingly "peasantised", according to the portions that I read in Cynthia Talbot's "Precolonial India in Practice: Society, Region, and Identity in Medieval Andhra" but I don't know how that ties into this business here. The Supplementary Table 4 also does not have any entries for Reddy, so they are not very closely related to others in the dataset? (There are some Telugu peasant groups like Panta Kapu (samples collected at Rajahmundry in East Godavari district which seems to me to be one of their native places), Velama (collected in Mahabubnagar district of Telangana), etc. in the data set who have IBD scores of 0.459 and 0.338 (there is another group called "Velma" who have an IBD score of 1.8 and no information is given as to where those samples were collected; the SNP.array (lol again for I know nothing what that means) concerned is Illumina for this one) respectively, as against the score of Reddy of Telangana at 1.96).

5. Vysya: currently numbered at 3,200,000 apparently (and samples collected in Anantapur district and at Piduguralla in Guntur district), they were traditionally the mercantile caste native to Telugu regions with the native name Komati- they probably engage in all sorts of urban professions now owing to their already high status and also possible recent sanskritisation. According to the Supplementary Table 4, they are most closely related to a group called Budagajangam (population: 122881, samples collected in Kurnool district). About this Budagajangam, I could not gain much information- there is no Wikipedia page but I found this (http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-andhrapradesh/budaga-jangam-leaders-seek-study-of-community-traits/article3752584.ece) article that might be talking about them as it was published from Kurnool. According to that article, the Budagajangam people were (are?) semi-nomadic whose traditional professions were hunting and making of leaf mats. There is no entry for the word Budagajangam in the Telugu dictionaries as far as I could see. If I'm understanding all this business correctly, it is rather interesting that the Vysyas are closely related to this Budagajangam group according to the Supplementary Table 4, seeing how much social difference there is between these two groups.

tipirneni
05-27-2018, 03:22 AM
I did not know about this earlier and when I looked at it yesterday, I found that the Telangana and Andhra Pradesh endogamous groups are of the following nature with respect to traditional professions:

1. Pattapu Kapu- traditionally fishing; not sure what they do now; it may be interesting that the Telugu dictionaries (http://www.andhrabharati.com/dictionary/) have an entry only for the term పట్టపువాడు (paṭṭapuvāḍu), 'a man who is associated with the holding [of fish] (a person who belongs to this caste)', 'A Tamil fisherman living on the seashore (as used in Nellore dialect according to the 1970 మాండలిక పదకోశము (māṇḍalika padakōśamu) (dictionary of dialectal vocabulary))', etc. without the tag "Kapu" present. "Kapu" in Telugu generally signifies some sort of a 'peasant' so may be these folks appended that tag later on as they aspired to go up the social ladder. Their population (13,697,000) is also quite high compared to Bestas, who are the closest related group to them (? according to the Supplementary Table 4), and are at 60,858. The Bestas also have a high IBD score with respect to Finns, very close to that of Pattapu Kapus (seems very strange seeing me using genetics terminology like this lol). Perhaps these both groups share the same founder event (lol I don't very properly understand what this means), and then Pattapu Kapus further separated and had the streak of aspiring for higher social status and sort of "peasantised" their caste name and gradually increased their population. And both the Pattapu Kapu and Besta samples were collected in Nellore district, which appears to be their native place.

2. Agnikula Kshatriya: The 1978 తెలుగు వ్యుత్పత్తి కోశం (telugu vyutpatti kōśaṁ) (Telugu etymological dictionary) already has an entry for this term for which it gives a meaning of పల్లెకార్లు (pallekārlu) which apparently was the older name for this caste and which I had no clue, whatsoever, about, so I googled the word "palle" and landed on this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanniyar) Wikipedia page; according to it, the Tamil Vanniyar (earlier known as palli apparently) were traditionally agricultural labourers, and to me, the Telugu word and the Tamil word appear to be related (whatever the etymology is and whatever the source language is- Tamil or Telugu- likely Tamil) though I'm not sure about it. Considering it to be the case, probably the Telugu counterparts were also traditionally agricultural labourers but seeing the somewhat recent Sanskritisation (see the very Sanskritic form of the name "Agnikula Kshatriya") and evidence for high upward mobility like their Tamil counterparts, they probably engage in all urban professions now. The samples of this group were collected at Machilipatnam in Krishna district and the group also seems native to the Krishna and Godavari districts as far as I could gather. The Supplementary Table 4 does not include this group so it appears that they are not very closely related to other groups from the data set. I thought may be I could compare if they were any closely related to Vanniyar of Tamil Nadu but that group is not there in the data, it appears.

3. Vadde: traditionally stonemasonry- tank-building specifically according to the Telugu dictionaries. According to this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaddera) Wikipedia page, "many have had to change to agricultural labouring." The article also says,

The samples were collected in Anantapur district and according to the Supplementary Table 4, they are most closely related to a group called Korava, whose samples were collected in Dharwad in Karnataka. I don't know if there are any native places for these groups but at least for the Vadde who were traditionally stonemasons, Deccan seems likely. I could not gather much information about Korava as well- at least as it pertains to Karnataka; this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koravar) Wikipedia page says that they "were primarily involved in salt trade" and were "classed as a criminal tribe by the British authorities." No idea why. They are apparently known as Erukala in Andhra Pradesh, as they were engaged in fortune-telling profession there (the word eruka means 'information/knowledge' in Telugu). Even according to the Supplementary Table 4, the Korava group appears most closely related to Korava, Oddari (samples collected in Warangal; the name probably similar to Vadde), Vadde, and Yerukali (samples collected in Warangal).

4. The Reddy of Telangana at 22.5 million apparently are supposed to be one of the native peasant groups of Telangana traditionally. There seems to be a high possibility that a significant portion of the peasants of Telangana owe their origins to migrations of peasants from the Krishna-Godavari delta after Kakatiya period began with its political centre in Telangana and Telangana and Rayalaseema began to be increasingly "peasantised", according to the portions that I read in Cynthia Talbot's "Precolonial India in Practice: Society, Region, and Identity in Medieval Andhra" but I don't know how that ties into this business here. The Supplementary Table 4 also does not have any entries for Reddy, so they are not very closely related to others in the dataset? (There are some Telugu peasant groups like Panta Kapu (samples collected at Rajahmundry in East Godavari district which seems to me to be one of their native places), Velama (collected in Mahabubnagar district of Telangana), etc. in the data set who have IBD scores of 0.459 and 0.338 (there is another group called "Velma" who have an IBD score of 1.8 and no information is given as to where those samples were collected; the SNP.array (lol again for I know nothing what that means) concerned is Illumina for this one) respectively, as against the score of Reddy of Telangana at 1.96).

5. Vysya: currently numbered at 3,200,000 apparently (and samples collected in Anantapur district and at Piduguralla in Guntur district), they were traditionally the mercantile caste native to Telugu regions with the native name Komati- they probably engage in all sorts of urban professions now owing to their already high status and also possible recent sanskritisation. According to the Supplementary Table 4, they are most closely related to a group called Budagajangam (population: 122881, samples collected in Kurnool district). About this Budagajangam, I could not gain much information- there is no Wikipedia page but I found this (http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-andhrapradesh/budaga-jangam-leaders-seek-study-of-community-traits/article3752584.ece) article that might be talking about them as it was published from Kurnool. According to that article, the Budagajangam people were (are?) semi-nomadic whose traditional professions were hunting and making of leaf mats. There is no entry for the word Budagajangam in the Telugu dictionaries as far as I could see. If I'm understanding all this business correctly, it is rather interesting that the Vysyas are closely related to this Budagajangam group according to the Supplementary Table 4, seeing how much social difference there is between these two groups.

The sample sizes are too low to believe this as it is. The populations like Ashkenazi that these are being compared to probably have samples running into 100s of thousands before reaching those conclusion. It may be true that the groups are highly endogamous in India but it is also true in most of the South Asia. just from 4 samples making a huge conclusion that will affect the public health forever is not scientific. However it is true the small endogamous groups should be educated to include diversity in the matchmaking & family planning.

https://i.imgur.com/C1sDnJa.png

one of runs with mix using unscaled nMonte produces
[1] "distance%=0.5724"

Suresh_T

Pallan,20.4 Tamil SC
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,19.8
Chenchu,12.6 forest tribe ST share haplogroups with many castes
Balochi,8.4
Yadava,6
Barikot_IA,5.8
Sindhi,5.4
Gujarati,4.8
Katelai_IA,3.8
Kadar,3.6 ST
Sakilli,2.6 SC
Mala,2 SC Ancient Soldiers
Bengali,1.4
Kanjar,0.8
Bengali_Bangladesh,0.4
Santhal,0.4 ST
Velamas,0.4
Biaka,0.2
Gonur1_BA,0.2
Gonur2_BA,0.2
Hakkipikki,0.2 forest tribe ST
Relli,0.2 SC
Sakha,0.2
Yakut,0.2

If you look at some of the castes not in the list, they have admixture irrespective of caste hierarchy with castes such as Tamil_SC who are admixture of Chola soldiers, Mala soldiers from olden telugu tribes, Hun etc... over last 2000 year. this makes genome more diverse.

anthroin
05-27-2018, 06:09 AM
The sample sizes are too low to believe this as it is. The populations like Ashkenazi that these are being compared to probably have samples running into 100s of thousands before reaching those conclusion. It may be true that the groups are highly endogamous in India but it is also true in most of the South Asia. just from 4 samples making a huge conclusion that will affect the public health forever is not scientific. However it is true the small endogamous groups should be educated to include diversity in the matchmaking & family planning.

https://i.imgur.com/C1sDnJa.png

one of runs with mix using unscaled nMonte produces
[1] "distance%=0.5724"

Suresh_T

Pallan,20.4 Tamil SC
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,19.8
Chenchu,12.6 forest tribe ST share haplogroups with many castes
Balochi,8.4
Yadava,6
Barikot_IA,5.8
Sindhi,5.4
Gujarati,4.8
Katelai_IA,3.8
Kadar,3.6 ST
Sakilli,2.6 SC
Mala,2 SC Ancient Soldiers
Bengali,1.4
Kanjar,0.8
Bengali_Bangladesh,0.4
Santhal,0.4 ST
Velamas,0.4
Biaka,0.2
Gonur1_BA,0.2
Gonur2_BA,0.2
Hakkipikki,0.2 forest tribe ST
Relli,0.2 SC
Sakha,0.2
Yakut,0.2

If you look at some of the castes not in the list, they have admixture irrespective of caste hierarchy with castes such as Tamil_SC who are admixture of Chola soldiers, Mala soldiers from olden telugu tribes, Hun etc... over last 2000 year. this makes genome more diverse.

You may be right- I don't know anything about this at all. But in the paper, they write at a place,


The simulations also suggested that our procedure was highly sensitive to detecting strong founder events, because for sample sizes
of at least 5, the algorithm’s sensitivity was >95% for determining that a group with twice the bottleneck strength as that of Finns had an
IBD score significantly greater than that of Finns (Supplementary Fig. 2 and Supplementary Table 2).

So, according to them, it seems that a minimum sample size of 5 for a group assures that the strength of a founder event relative to that of Finns is correctly estimated. It appeared to me that their Supplementary Figure 2 simulation results demonstrated this for groups having a founder event strength double that of Finns (giving an IBD score around 1.5 with low deviation as I saw it)- I don't know if a sample size of 5 is sufficient for groups finally giving such high IBD scores as 9.5, 9.2, etc., as I don't know how the algorithm is working underneath. But the results may anyway be correct for some groups on the lower half of the table like Vysya, Reddy, etc. who have reasonably okay sample size like 39, 7 respectively and also resulted in 1.2, 2 or that kind of IBD scores, which are relatively on the low side.

tipirneni
05-27-2018, 09:49 AM
You may be right- I don't know anything about this at all. But in the paper, they write at a place,



So, according to them, it seems that a minimum sample size of 5 for a group assures that the strength of a founder event relative to that of Finns is correctly estimated. It appeared to me that their Supplementary Figure 2 simulation results demonstrated this for groups having a founder event strength double that of Finns (giving an IBD score around 1.5 with low deviation as I saw it)- I don't know if a sample size of 5 is sufficient for groups finally giving such high IBD scores as 9.5, 9.2, etc., as I don't know how the algorithm is working underneath. But the results may anyway be correct for some groups on the lower half of the table like Vysya, Reddy, etc. who have reasonably okay sample size like 39, 7 respectively and also resulted in 1.2, 2 or that kind of IBD scores, which are relatively on the low side.

Groups specified here are not single homogenious group

Reddy for example consists of atleast 12 different subdivisions such as PantaKapu, Motati, PakaNadu etc....
Vysya also have similar grouping such as Arya Vysya, Oriya etc...

The study didnt sample scientifically all these major divisions but just gets a 4 people sample & compares to Ashkenazi who are one of the most medically documented people in whole world. This is a big hyperbole.

So this study looks like done by some new amateur researcher trying to flaunt institutes such as Harvard etc...

pegasus
05-27-2018, 10:40 AM
The sample sizes are too low to believe this as it is. The populations like Ashkenazi that these are being compared to probably have samples running into 100s of thousands before reaching those conclusion. It may be true that the groups are highly endogamous in India but it is also true in most of the South Asia. just from 4 samples making a huge conclusion that will affect the public health forever is not scientific. However it is true the small endogamous groups should be educated to include diversity in the matchmaking & family planning.

https://i.imgur.com/C1sDnJa.png

one of runs with mix using unscaled nMonte produces
[1] "distance%=0.5724"

Suresh_T

Pallan,20.4 Tamil SC
Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3,19.8
Chenchu,12.6 forest tribe ST share haplogroups with many castes
Balochi,8.4
Yadava,6
Barikot_IA,5.8
Sindhi,5.4
Gujarati,4.8
Katelai_IA,3.8
Kadar,3.6 ST
Sakilli,2.6 SC
Mala,2 SC Ancient Soldiers
Bengali,1.4
Kanjar,0.8
Bengali_Bangladesh,0.4
Santhal,0.4 ST
Velamas,0.4
Biaka,0.2
Gonur1_BA,0.2
Gonur2_BA,0.2
Hakkipikki,0.2 forest tribe ST
Relli,0.2 SC
Sakha,0.2
Yakut,0.2

If you look at some of the castes not in the list, they have admixture irrespective of caste hierarchy with castes such as Tamil_SC who are admixture of Chola soldiers, Mala soldiers from olden telugu tribes, Hun etc... over last 2000 year. this makes genome more diverse.

Where did you surmise this ? Also its pretty understood many castes and South Asia suffer from severe founder effects and inbreeding, caste coupled with different degrees of consanguinity easily make this possible.

tipirneni
05-27-2018, 10:54 AM
Where did you surmise this ? Also its pretty understood many castes and South Asia suffer from severe founder effects and inbreeding, caste coupled with different degrees of consanguinity easily make this possible.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5675555/
Look at the study.
"Of the tiny fraction of South Asian groups that have been characterized using genome-wide data, many exhibit large allele frequency differences from close neighbors2–4, consistent with strong founder events whereby a small number of ancestors gave rise to many descendants today"
Our documentation that very strong founder events affect a large fraction of South Asian groups presents an opportunity for decreasing disease burden in South Asia. This source of risk for recessive diseases is very different from that due to marriages among close relatives, which is also a major cause of recessive disease in South Asia. To determine the relative impact of these factors, we computed FST, a measurement of allele frequency differentiation, between each group in the dataset and a pool of other South Asian groups chosen to be closest in terms of ancestry proportions. We find that inbreeding is not driving many of these signals, as 89 unique groups have higher FST scores than those of Ashkenazi Jews and Finns even after reducing the FST score by the proportion of allele frequency differentiation due to inbreeding. These results show that while most recessive disease gene mapping studies in South Asia have focused on families that are the products of marriages between close relatives, recessive diseases are also likely to occur at an elevated rate even in non-consanguineous cases because of shared ancestors more distantly in time.


I am just high lighting the diverse nature of my genome with different groups all over south irrespective of caste status & purely function & territory

khanabadoshi
05-27-2018, 10:57 AM
Is cousin marriage as bad in Pakistan as it is the UK? It's already an epidemic in the UK. I feel bad for these kids born with no chance to succeed in life, the Banias, and Gujjars included.

There is a documentary that I saw a while ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkxuKe2wOMs

It's quite prevalent, though I would not say to the extent as in the UK. In this generation the trend is less. f. ex. the Mohmand married his cousin, but the Lahori married a Multani, the Swati married a Multani, a guy from Okara married a girl from Karachi. This would be unheard of even a generation ago. The middle-class is far more aware of the dangers of repetitive cousin marriages, and there is a noticeable move away from it, and even marrying too local. However, the issues aren't exclusive to cousin marriages, it's also to do with marrying repeatedly within the same distant groups, or marrying more distant relations than cousins, which over time adds up.

Almost none of my grandparents or their siblings from either side married a relation -- they all married distantly -- but many of their subsequent children married 1st cousins, or 1st cousins once-removed, or 2 or 3rd cousins, and some of the resulting children had ailments of some kind. That shouldn't occur in just one generation of cousin-marriage. What it tells me is that despite the fact an entire generation married distantly and their children were not inbred, their grandkids still inherited the dangers of multi-generational endogamy, because most of previous generations were likely inbred. One generation of completely distant marriages, wasn't enough to break the cycle.

One thing in common with people with the highest prevalence of close-relation marriages is that they are from small groups, or very tribal or clan-oriented, or of a lower socioeconomic class. Thus, marriage among other groups is difficult. You are either from a smaller group trying to marry into the larger group, and rejected; or you are from the larger group trying to marrying into the smaller group, and rejected. In other words, for a good section of the population, cousin-marriage isn't the preference, it's the only option. There is a lot of exclusivity to navigate. f. ex. I totally understand why the Pashtun Swati happily married a Saraiki-speaking Multani girl, but Lahori Rajput/Kashmiri parents disowned him for marrying a Punjabi-speaking Rajput girl from Multan; their social realities are different. Explaining it, is a whole other topic. The point is though, the cousin-marriage prevalence exists, solely because it's just the easiest path to marriage for many people. Until that changes, the prevalence will still be high.

Also, mandatory elephant in the room for the landed-class: Islamic inheritance laws. Sons inherit 1/2. Daughters inherit 1/4. If you have 3 sons and 1 daughter, she got the bigger share. So if you want your mango field staying in the khandan, you make sure your daughter marries your brother's son.

bol_nat
05-27-2018, 02:11 PM
@saporro

You asked about jatt sikh in Bahwalpur and Multan. I think it will depend on their clan if its common to that region. Recently there was political alliance formed for south punjab province and it included someone named Tahir Bashir Cheema, I was asking what is Cheema doing there. He then said he's punjabi speaker. Basically they are trying to unite seraiki, balochi and punjabi speakers of south punjab for separate province, before punjabi and balochi speakers used to be against Seraki province. So sikh jatt there will more then likely be from central or east punjab.

Also now that I've looked up some more, hindu Khatris doesn't seem to have any presence in north west punjab/potohar. They are pretty much concentrated in central punjab, especially Lahore, Gujralwala division rural areas. Aroras definitely started coming from south some time in 17th century looking at British records, this is probably why many of them have many sindhi relatives on gedmatch.

There are still some arora hindus in Balochistan and Sindh, they are involved in business for the must part. There also some arora muslims in Karachi with surnames like chawala and tend to be industrialists. When I heard these names some time ago I mistake them with khatris/sheikh from punjab but in reality they seem to be Sindhis.

anthroin
05-27-2018, 04:10 PM
Groups specified here are not single homogenious group

Reddy for example consists of atleast 12 different subdivisions such as PantaKapu, Motati, PakaNadu etc....
Vysya also have similar grouping such as Arya Vysya, Oriya etc...

The study didnt sample scientifically all these major divisions but just gets a 4 people sample & compares to Ashkenazi who are one of the most medically documented people in whole world. This is a big hyperbole.

So this study looks like done by some new amateur researcher trying to flaunt institutes such as Harvard etc...

Yes but in the olden days, weren't marriages contracted in a caste only within the subcaste? I heard that it is only recently that the subdivisions began to play decreasing role. So the subcastes were probably the true endogamous groups here.

And when you say Reddy has 12 subcastes like Pakanati, Panta Kapu, Motati, etc. do you refer to the Reddys of Telangana which this study concerned itself with? I'm actually not knowledgeable about this caste-subcaste business but as far as I could see, Pakanati refers to the regional peasants of olden Pakanadu which is apparently Nellore and southern Prakasam districts according to Cynthia Talbot's book, about Panta Kapus' and Motati Kapus' native places, I don't have a good idea. That is, did the Reddy of Telangana historically intermarry with, say Pakanati Reddys or some other Reddys of other regions? Similarly for the Vysya.

If you in fact made other important points which I did not quite catch, please forgive me.

khanabadoshi
05-27-2018, 05:33 PM
@saporro

You asked about jatt sikh in Bahwalpur and Multan. I think it will depend on their clan if its common to that region. Recently there was political alliance formed for south punjab province and it included someone named Tahir Bashir Cheema, I was asking what is Cheema doing there. He then said he's punjabi speaker. Basically they are trying to unite seraiki, balochi and punjabi speakers of south punjab for separate province, before punjabi and balochi speakers used to be against Seraki province. So sikh jatt there will more then likely be from central or east punjab.

Also now that I've looked up some more, hindu Khatris doesn't seem to have any presence in north west punjab/potohar. They are pretty much concentrated in central punjab, especially Lahore, Gujralwala division rural areas. Aroras definitely started coming from south some time in 17th century looking at British records, this is probably why many of them have many sindhi relatives on gedmatch.

There are still some arora hindus in Balochistan and Sindh, they are involved in business for the must part. There also some arora muslims in Karachi with surnames like chawala and tend to be industrialists. When I heard these names some time ago I mistake them with khatris/sheikh from punjab but in reality they seem to be Sindhis.

What are Cheena? Not Cheema, but Cheena, there is that famous singer. I assume they are Jatt or Rajput or something.

bol_nat
05-27-2018, 05:56 PM
What are Cheena? Not Cheema, but Cheena, there is that famous singer. I assume they are Jatt or Rajput or something.

No idea :/

tipirneni
05-27-2018, 06:37 PM
Yes but in the olden days, weren't marriages contracted in a caste only within the subcaste? I heard that it is only recently that the subdivisions began to play decreasing role. So the subcastes were probably the true endogamous groups here.

And when you say Reddy has 12 subcastes like Pakanati, Panta Kapu, Motati, etc. do you refer to the Reddys of Telangana which this study concerned itself with? I'm actually not knowledgeable about this caste-subcaste business but as far as I could see, Pakanati refers to the regional peasants of olden Pakanadu which is apparently Nellore and southern Prakasam districts according to Cynthia Talbot's book, about Panta Kapus' and Motati Kapus' native places, I don't have a good idea. That is, did the Reddy of Telangana historically intermarry with, say Pakanati Reddys or some other Reddys of other regions? Similarly for the Vysya.

If you in fact made other important points which I did not quite catch, please forgive me.


There is lot of intermixing within Reddy caste in all regions and prior to Vijayanagar empire within castes such as Reddy, Velama & kamma/Boya/Yadava

You will find all these subcaste in telengana but probably Motati reddy more than others.

Panta Reddy's ruled in Andhra post Kakatiya as Reddy Kingdom initially as part of Nayak confederation with Kapaya Nayak & later separately.

Some of the well known sub castes of Reddys are Ayodhi Reddys (in Tamil Nadu), Motati Reddys, Neravati reddy, Pedakanti Reddy, Chowdary Reddy(saudary Reddy), Gudati Reddy, Reddy Gandla, Pakanati Reddys, Velanati Reddys, Namadarlu, Vadde Reddys, Panta Reddys,Gandla reddy, Ganjam Reddy (in Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Orissa), Pokanati Reddys, Nanugonda Reddys, Gone Kapu, Palle Reddy and Konda Reddy. Hyderabad and Rangareddy are dominated by Gudati, Gone Kapu and Reddy kapu sub castes. Adilabad and Karimnagar have Reddy Gandla, gudati and Motati in majority. Motati Reddy, gudati reddy and gandla reddy's do business in oil and beedi leaves.

Similarly,
Arya Vysyas are distributed throughout Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra. Kalinga Vysyas are mostly spread in srikakulam and Vizianagaram districts of Andhra Pradesh and Orissa, whereas Thrivarnikas are small in number and spread in small pockets of Vizianagaram, Visakhapatnam, East Godavari and Warangal districts. Arya Vysyas are vegetarians whereas the other two subsects are non-vegetarians.

There is a possibility of a strain of Andhras (Kammas) from IVC mixed in these Arya Vysyas from old Jains of Chalukya times.

khanabadoshi
05-27-2018, 07:13 PM
No idea :/

In Janoobi Punjab there are a crap ton of names like that, who I've always just assumed are Jatts, and it's blowing my mind right now that maybe they aren't?
I mean what else could they be? Even Rajputs have few clan names... Maybe Gujjar?

parasar
05-27-2018, 07:44 PM
The most interesting thing about Iyers in terms of y-dna is the G2a proportion.

I don't think I've seen anything like it in any ethnic group in South Asia outside the Kalash, Brahui and the Pashtuns.

...
~11% in Gujarat Brahmans and Bihar Dusadh/Paswan:
https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201442/tables/1

jb24
05-27-2018, 10:32 PM
What are Cheena? Not Cheema, but Cheena, there is that famous singer. I assume they are Jatt or Rajput or something.


In Janoobi Punjab there are a crap ton of names like that, who I've always just assumed are Jatts, and it's blowing my mind right now that maybe they aren't?
I mean what else could they be? Even Rajputs have few clan names... Maybe Gujjar?

Cheena (Chhina) are also Jatt.

I have read that one historical name for "Seraiki" language is "Jatki" ( [language] of the Jatts ), but Cheena and Cheema might perhaps be more recent migrants to Janoobi Punjab from somewhere else?

pegasus
05-27-2018, 11:42 PM
It's quite prevalent, though I would not say to the extent as in the UK. In this generation the trend is less. f. ex. the Mohmand married his cousin, but the Lahori married a Multani, the Swati married a Multani, a guy from Okara married a girl from Karachi. This would be unheard of even a generation ago. The middle-class is far more aware of the dangers of repetitive cousin marriages, and there is a noticeable move away from it, and even marrying too local. However, the issues aren't exclusive to cousin marriages, it's also to do with marrying repeatedly within the same distant groups, or marrying more distant relations than cousins, which over time adds up.

Almost none of my grandparents or their siblings from either side married a relation -- they all married distantly -- but many of their subsequent children married 1st cousins, or 1st cousins once-removed, or 2 or 3rd cousins, and some of the resulting children had ailments of some kind. That shouldn't occur in just one generation of cousin-marriage. What it tells me is that despite the fact an entire generation married distantly and their children were not inbred, their grandkids still inherited the dangers of multi-generational endogamy, because most of previous generations were likely inbred. One generation of completely distant marriages, wasn't enough to break the cycle.

One thing in common with people with the highest prevalence of close-relation marriages is that they are from small groups, or very tribal or clan-oriented, or of a lower socioeconomic class. Thus, marriage among other groups is difficult. You are either from a smaller group trying to marry into the larger group, and rejected; or you are from the larger group trying to marrying into the smaller group, and rejected. In other words, for a good section of the population, cousin-marriage isn't the preference, it's the only option. There is a lot of exclusivity to navigate. f. ex. I totally understand why the Pashtun Swati happily married a Saraiki-speaking Multani girl, but Lahori Rajput/Kashmiri parents disowned him for marrying a Punjabi-speaking Rajput girl from Multan; their social realities are different. Explaining it, is a whole other topic. The point is though, the cousin-marriage prevalence exists, solely because it's just the easiest path to marriage for many people. Until that changes, the prevalence will still be high.

Also, mandatory elephant in the room for the landed-class: Islamic inheritance laws. Sons inherit 1/2. Daughters inherit 1/4. If you have 3 sons and 1 daughter, she got the bigger share. So if you want your mango field staying in the khandan, you make sure your daughter marries your brother's son.

. When I was in Toronto, you would hear horrific cases of daughter in law abuse among the Punjabi population in Brampton in the papers, I think this fear is likely also a reason for consanguinity , as relatives act like checks and bounces. The UK is dominated by Mirpuris, and the Pakistanis I know seem to have a very condescending view of them.

bmoney
05-28-2018, 12:02 AM
~11% in Gujarat Brahmans and Bihar Dusadh/Paswan:
https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201442/tables/1

The more data I see, the more I'm thinking Tamil Brahmins are basically Gujju Brahmins (the south shifted subset) who migrated SE as @kush once mentioned.

If you look at the nmonte thread, some of the south-shifted Gujju Brahmins score exactly like Tamil Brahmins with Tam Brams being their closest oracle distance group.

Karnataka Brahmins (and myself) on the other hand are more shifted towards UP (East)

Kit Num: LU1800940 (Gujju Brahmin)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.85
2 Baloch 36.75
3 Caucasian 6.74
4 NE-Euro 4.13
5 American 1.21


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 2.549344
2 tn-brahmin_xing @ 2.562526
3 rajasthani_harappa @ 2.736820
4 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 3.071632
5 goan_harappa @ 3.074147
6 maharashtrian_harappa @ 3.398731
7 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 3.767612
8 kerala-nair_harappa @ 4.107601
9 meghawal_reich @ 4.149900
10 ap-brahmin_xing @ 4.174797
11 singapore-indian-b_sgvp @ 4.263134
12 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 4.321522
13 gujarati_harappa @ 4.394543
14 kerala-christian_harappa @ 4.571583
15 up_harappa @ 5.763288
16 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 5.906029
17 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 6.031587
18 meghawal_metspalu @ 6.093652
19 kerala_harappa @ 6.582963
20 kurmi_metspalu @ 6.621163

khanabadoshi
05-28-2018, 06:24 AM
Cheena (Chhina) are also Jatt.

I have read that one historical name for "Seraiki" language is "Jatki" ( [language] of the Jatts ), but Cheena and Cheema might perhaps be more recent migrants to Janoobi Punjab from somewhere else?

So in my world, all these guys are Jatts, and I assume they are local -- but some do (at least to my ear) sing Saraiki with a very Punjabi lean, or at the very least mix the 2 in speech. However, in my village, these dudes speak straight Saraiki.

Yes it was called Jatki or Jadhgali (in Balochi: Language of the Jatts) -- which is why I assume everyone with a non-Baloch, Rajput, or Pashtun surname is Jatt. However, a lot of these names aren't found in Northern Punjab. But maybe it's like Arrain or the Jhangli surnames (Watoo etc..) all of which are known to me in Southern Punjab as well. Maybe there are a lot more non-Jatt/Rajput/Chamar Punjabi groups than we currently think of. All these people I think of as Jatts live in areas that came to be only in the last 300 years -- so it's possible they all moved. However, I feel like like these people are the most local to the region. All the census records show Jatts as being the most populous group. (edit: see below, Jatt has a broader definition) I know all the Punjabi speakers in Multan moved to the city in the last 100 years. Even the area where they mostly live is called Nawa Sher.

I'm trying to think of village people though. Pretty sure my neighbor is Jatt, but I can't remember his surname -- he was fat as a kid -- and so everyone just calls him Mota Mukhtiar, even though he is a skinny old man now LOL. Just some names off the top of my head that I've seen: Khar, Sial, Waraich (but I don't think they are local, it's a bus company I saw often), Nayyar (only in Multan, Punjabi-speaker), Langrial, Hinjra (or Hanjra?), Angra, Mahra. Hinjra, Langrial, and Khar are larger groups -- majority of these guys live in the north of the district (NW of Multan city).

@Agentlime: I found some local Arora names pre-partition in my district: Utradhi, Dahra, Dakhna (qom?); Nangpal, Kukreja, Manathalia (zaat?). First names for some of these Arora are interesting: Hotu, Asa, Ghana.
I will try to find more details and look at Dera Ghazi Khan as well.

[EDIT: so it looks like the Hindus in the region treated Arora or Khatri or Brahmin or what have you as a QOM not a caste. ie. Answer to, "what is your qom?" would be "Arora" and the their answer to "what is your zaat?" would be something like "Nangpal". And their surname would be the caste-name, ie. Asa Nangpal.]

There seems to be no Hindu Jatt or Rajput in the district and negligible Sikh Jatt.

EDIT: found some answers.... I guess we have a broader definition of Jatt in the south:

https://i.gyazo.com/c02130ee81ad708532a5cedc43099c9c.pnghttps://i.gyazo.com/56c9867183c8f2695aef0f9bc4a362c9.png

I've seen the title Jam (pronounced jām) a lot. So I guess they are all "Sindhi Jatt" (perhaps historically Jatt were more numerous in Sindh proper, or the Multan area was seen as historically Sindh, so either way the term could be applied).

MonkeyDLuffy
05-28-2018, 03:34 PM
So in my world, all these guys are Jatts, and I assume they are local -- but some do (at least to my ear) sing Saraiki with a very Punjabi lean, or at the very least mix the 2 in speech. However, in my village, these dudes speak straight Saraiki.

Yes it was called Jatki or Jadhgali (in Balochi: Language of the Jatts) -- which is why I assume everyone with a non-Baloch, Rajput, or Pashtun surname is Jatt. However, a lot of these names aren't found in Northern Punjab. But maybe it's like Arrain or the Jhangli surnames (Watoo etc..) all of which are known to me in Southern Punjab as well. Maybe there are a lot more non-Jatt/Rajput/Chamar Punjabi groups than we currently think of. All these people I think of as Jatts live in areas that came to be only in the last 300 years -- so it's possible they all moved. However, I feel like like these people are the most local to the region. All the census records show Jatts as being the most populous group. (edit: see below, Jatt has a broader definition) I know all the Punjabi speakers in Multan moved to the city in the last 100 years. Even the area where they mostly live is called Nawa Sher.

I'm trying to think of village people though. Pretty sure my neighbor is Jatt, but I can't remember his surname -- he was fat as a kid -- and so everyone just calls him Mota Mukhtiar, even though he is a skinny old man now LOL. Just some names off the top of my head that I've seen: Khar, Sial, Waraich (but I don't think they are local, it's a bus company I saw often), Nayyar (only in Multan, Punjabi-speaker), Langrial, Hinjra (or Hanjra?), Angra, Mahra. Hinjra, Langrial, and Khar are larger groups -- majority of these guys live in the north of the district (NW of Multan city).

@Agentlime: I found some local Arora names pre-partition in my district: Utradhi, Dahra, Dakhna (qom?); Nangpal, Kukreja, Manathalia (zaat?). First names for some of these Arora are interesting: Hotu, Asa, Ghana.
I will try to find more details and look at Dera Ghazi Khan as well.

[EDIT: so it looks like the Hindus in the region treated Arora or Khatri or Brahmin or what have you as a QOM not a caste. ie. Answer to, "what is your qom?" would be "Arora" and the their answer to "what is your zaat?" would be something like "Nangpal". And their surname would be the caste-name, ie. Asa Nangpal.]

There seems to be no Hindu Jatt or Rajput in the district and negligible Sikh Jatt.

EDIT: found some answers.... I guess we have a broader definition of Jatt in the south:

https://i.gyazo.com/c02130ee81ad708532a5cedc43099c9c.pnghttps://i.gyazo.com/56c9867183c8f2695aef0f9bc4a362c9.png

I've seen the title Jam (pronounced jām) a lot. So I guess the are all Sindhi Jatt.

Nayyar are khatris. That big bang dude Kunal nayyar is Punjabi khatri.

heksindhi
05-28-2018, 10:52 PM
Yes it was called Jatki or Jadhgali (in Balochi: Language of the Jatts)

<nit-pickiness>"Jadgal" is simply the term used by the Baloch for all Balochistani peoples of Sindhi origin - it doesn't really imply any Jat ancestry unless you consider the Samma/Jamote tribes of Sindh to be Jats. For example the Aliani Jamotes of Lasbela and the Dashtiari of Iranian Makran are both Sindhi speaking Jadgal tribes. On a more generic level, the "gal" suffix in Balochi is a plural/collective suffix for people related words - similar to "log" in Urdu.</nit-pickiness>

khanabadoshi
05-29-2018, 03:33 PM
<nit-pickiness>"Jadgal" is simply the term used by the Baloch for all Balochistani peoples of Sindhi origin - it doesn't really imply any Jat ancestry unless you consider the Samma/Jamote tribes of Sindh to be Jats. For example the Aliani Jamotes of Lasbela and the Dashtiari of Iranian Makran are both Sindhi speaking Jadgal tribes. On a more generic level, the "gal" suffix in Balochi is a plural/collective suffix for people related words - similar to "log" in Urdu.</nit-pickiness>

I have to speak on this more with you. You have a perspective from an area, none of us have. I've listened to some Jadgali in Iran and the language is very Sindhi-like but somewhat intelligible to me, it reminds me of Khetrani.
As far as I know, locally, the Bugtis and such used Jaghdal (not Jadgal, the g and d flipped) for whom they called Jatts (and that definition is seemingly based on whom the Arabs called Zutts; I've seen mention of its use for Sindhis as well, however, in my limited experience, Bugtis call Sindhis, Sindhi, nowadays.) so basically for whomever lives on the eastern bank of that central part of the Indus. Later, they used it for Baloch who now speak those languages. It's a somewhat derogatory term in the Deras, and the direct meaning is you are being called a Jatt, ie. you have adapted their culture. Nowadays they are more likely to just say Punjabi or Sindhi or Saraiki or Jatt. The Balochi language is somewhat different between the North, Northwest, and South, so I assume this is the difference in the words. However, I would propose that at least historically, in the northern parts of Balochistan, some variation of the word is particular to mean Jatt (though the word Jatt is broad relative to how perhaps it is used in Northern Punjab):


jat [ jat ] camel-driver. Si.
jathir [ jathir ] millstone. Si.
jandru.jatha [ jatha ] p.p. of janagh.
jukht [ jukht ] scabbard of a sword.
jukht [ jukht ] adj. even (in numbers, as opposed to odd). Pashto jukht.
jar [ jar ] clothes, dress.
jarída [ jarída ] a poor man, pauper.
juzagh [ juzagh ] to go, move.

gámá juzagh, to walk (of a horse).

jist [ jist ] zinc. P.
jaghdal [ jaghdal ] s a Jat.
jaghdalí [ jaghdalí ] s. the language of the Jats, viz., Panjábí or Sindhí.

However, this dictionary is referring to Northern (Suleimani) Balochi specifically, not Makrani or Rakhshani. So I'm guessing the definition or word varies by locale.

Are you familiar with the areas near Turbat, Kech areas? I have some questions about the people there.

Raza94
05-30-2018, 07:26 AM
So in my world, all these guys are Jatts, and I assume they are local -- but some do (at least to my ear) sing Saraiki with a very Punjabi lean, or at the very least mix the 2 in speech. However, in my village, these dudes speak straight Saraiki.

Yes it was called Jatki or Jadhgali (in Balochi: Language of the Jatts) -- which is why I assume everyone with a non-Baloch, Rajput, or Pashtun surname is Jatt. However, a lot of these names aren't found in Northern Punjab. But maybe it's like Arrain or the Jhangli surnames (Watoo etc..) all of which are known to me in Southern Punjab as well. Maybe there are a lot more non-Jatt/Rajput/Chamar Punjabi groups than we currently think of. All these people I think of as Jatts live in areas that came to be only in the last 300 years -- so it's possible they all moved. However, I feel like like these people are the most local to the region. All the census records show Jatts as being the most populous group. (edit: see below, Jatt has a broader definition) I know all the Punjabi speakers in Multan moved to the city in the last 100 years. Even the area where they mostly live is called Nawa Sher.

I'm trying to think of village people though. Pretty sure my neighbor is Jatt, but I can't remember his surname -- he was fat as a kid -- and so everyone just calls him Mota Mukhtiar, even though he is a skinny old man now LOL. Just some names off the top of my head that I've seen: Khar, Sial, Waraich (but I don't think they are local, it's a bus company I saw often), Nayyar (only in Multan, Punjabi-speaker), Langrial, Hinjra (or Hanjra?), Angra, Mahra. Hinjra, Langrial, and Khar are larger groups -- majority of these guys live in the north of the district (NW of Multan city).

@Agentlime: I found some local Arora names pre-partition in my district: Utradhi, Dahra, Dakhna (qom?); Nangpal, Kukreja, Manathalia (zaat?). First names for some of these Arora are interesting: Hotu, Asa, Ghana.
I will try to find more details and look at Dera Ghazi Khan as well.

[EDIT: so it looks like the Hindus in the region treated Arora or Khatri or Brahmin or what have you as a QOM not a caste. ie. Answer to, "what is your qom?" would be "Arora" and the their answer to "what is your zaat?" would be something like "Nangpal". And their surname would be the caste-name, ie. Asa Nangpal.]

There seems to be no Hindu Jatt or Rajput in the district and negligible Sikh Jatt.

EDIT: found some answers.... I guess we have a broader definition of Jatt in the south:

https://i.gyazo.com/c02130ee81ad708532a5cedc43099c9c.pnghttps://i.gyazo.com/56c9867183c8f2695aef0f9bc4a362c9.png

I've seen the title Jam (pronounced jām) a lot. So I guess they are all "Sindhi Jatt" (perhaps historically Jatt were more numerous in Sindh proper, or the Multan area was seen as historically Sindh, so either way the term could be applied).

Im from Jhang and Sials are big there but I've heard that some consider them Rajput and others consider them Jatt?

agent_lime
05-31-2018, 01:18 PM
@Agentlime: I found some local Arora names pre-partition in my district: Utradhi, Dahra, Dakhna (qom?); Nangpal, Kukreja, Manathalia (zaat?). First names for some of these Arora are interesting: Hotu, Asa, Ghana.
I will try to find more details and look at Dera Ghazi Khan as well.

[EDIT: so it looks like the Hindus in the region treated Arora or Khatri or Brahmin or what have you as a QOM not a caste. ie. Answer to, "what is your qom?" would be "Arora" and the their answer to "what is your zaat?" would be something like "Nangpal". And their surname would be the caste-name, ie. Asa Nangpal.]

There seems to be no Hindu Jatt or Rajput in the district and negligible Sikh Jatt.

EDIT: found some answers.... I guess we have a broader definition of Jatt in the south:

https://i.gyazo.com/c02130ee81ad708532a5cedc43099c9c.pnghttps://i.gyazo.com/56c9867183c8f2695aef0f9bc4a362c9.png

I've seen the title Jam (pronounced jām) a lot. So I guess they are all "Sindhi Jatt" (perhaps historically Jatt were more numerous in Sindh proper, or the Multan area was seen as historically Sindh, so either way the term could be applied).

Khana thanks for all you do. My family name before it changed in India was Popli. If you could check if any of those folks are still left in Dera Ghazi or Dera Ismail(I've heard my dad mention that we might have had some family pre-partion here). I have never heard any family member mention that we have any family left in Multan. Either they have moved to India, converted or perished in the partition.

Nangpal(sp? Nagpal) is a Sindhi or Kashmiri last name in Delhi. Kukreja sounds very Sindhi too(could possibly be Arora). I have no clue as to what Manathalia is? Also interesting first names. None of my extended family has similar names. They are mostly just Punjabi names.

Utradhi (sp? Uttaradi) is a metal working caste. Dahra (sp? Dhuria) is a Arora caste.

bol_nat
05-31-2018, 11:58 PM
<nit-pickiness>"Jadgal" is simply the term used by the Baloch for all Balochistani peoples of Sindhi origin - it doesn't really imply any Jat ancestry unless you consider the Samma/Jamote tribes of Sindh to be Jats. For example the Aliani Jamotes of Lasbela and the Dashtiari of Iranian Makran are both Sindhi speaking Jadgal tribes. On a more generic level, the "gal" suffix in Balochi is a plural/collective suffix for people related words - similar to "log" in Urdu.</nit-pickiness>

I also think jat in south punjab is used as generic term and not in tribal like in north central punjab. I've read something similar in one of British notes. Will try to search it.

bol_nat
06-02-2018, 02:21 AM
Im from Jhang and Sials are big there but I've heard that some consider them Rajput and others consider them Jatt?

Jhang, Chiniot etc basically region in between north and south punjab tribes Sials, Kharrals etc claim to be what ever was in fashion depending on region. For example kharrals that migrated to Gujranwala claim to be jatts. And their migration to gujranwala, gujrat etc is documented, as per British gazzater they came from south and displaced khatri population from their lands. While kharral in Multan claim to be rajput. I've read this online from Kharral from Gujrat who is jatt but he once met Kharral from Multan who claimed to be rajput.

I've seen some Janjua sikh jatt singer? While in Pakistan janjuas are all rajputs.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-02-2018, 03:34 AM
Jhang, Chiniot etc basically region in between north and south punjab tribes Sials, Kharrals etc claim to be what ever was in fashion depending on region. For example kharrals that migrated to Gujranwala claim to be jatts. And their migration to gujranwala, gujrat etc is documented, as per British gazzater they came from south and displaced khatri population from their lands. While kharral in Multan claim to be rajput. I've read this online from Kharral from Gujrat who is jatt but he once met Kharral from Multan who claimed to be rajput.

I've seen some Janjua sikh jatt singer? While in Pakistan janjuas are all rajputs.

Nah Laabh janjua was rajput, janjuas Sikh are Rajputs. I have never met a janjua jatt in my life.

Kulin
06-02-2018, 10:42 PM
Can anyone list the caste of famous bollywood actors?

A lot of people from UP dont really follow caste system. Even great Amitabh doesnt know his caste

Lol what? UP is one of the most casteist places in India. People in UP identify with their caste community/biradari more than anything. Amitabh Bachan, real name "Inquilab" Shrivastava is a Kayastha with roots in Awadh.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-03-2018, 04:18 AM
Lol what? UP is one of the most casteist places in India. People in UP identify with their caste community/biradari more than anything. Amitabh Bachan, real name "Inquilab" Shrivastava is a Kayastha with roots in Awadh.

Amitabh is mixed, his mom Teji Bachan is Khatri I think.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-03-2018, 04:28 AM
Not really. I think it is Punjab and haryana. Anyways most Kayastha converted to islam i think

I have visited UP and other central Indian states couple of times. It is one of the most caste infested states. Even different Muslims look down on each other. But not as much as Hindus, just give a visit to Varanasi or Allahabad, you'd be surprised.

The difference in Punjabi biradari system is all major Biradaris in Punjab look down on each other. There is no set system like Hinduism, or is very thin in term of influence. So you've Khatris Sikhs, jatt Sikhs, rajput Sikhs, Ramgarhia sikhs, ahluwalia Sikhs dissing each other, because of sikhism all of these Avarna or outcaste groups got wealthy and now consider themselves superior. I'm a Sikh Ramgarhia, in Hindus and Islam I'd be considered a Tarkhan, a worker class, a mid caste status. But because Sikhism allowed us to rise in terms of social and economical status, you'll see Ramgarhias looking down on jatts stating they're uneducated or not very bright, which is opposite to what would happen in Hinduism where I'd be on lower status, or Islam where I'd be a Kaami in comparison to a landowner jatt.

That's how much Biradari system in Punjab is complex.

pegasus
06-03-2018, 05:18 AM
I have visited UP and other central Indian states couple of times. It is one of the most caste infested states. Even different Muslims look down on each other. But not as much as Hindus, just give a visit to Varanasi or Allahabad, you'd be surprised.

The difference in Punjabi biradari system is all major Biradaris in Punjab look down on each other. There is no set system like Hinduism, or is very thin in term of influence. So you've Khatris Sikhs, jatt Sikhs, rajput Sikhs, Ramgarhia sikhs, ahluwalia Sikhs dissing each other, because of sikhism all of these Avarna or outcaste groups got wealthy and now consider themselves superior. I'm a Sikh Ramgarhia, in Hindus and Islam I'd be considered a Tarkhan, a worker class, a mid caste status. But because Sikhism allowed us to rise in terms of social and economical status, you'll see Ramgarhias looking down on jatts stating they're uneducated or not very bright, which is opposite to what would happen in Hinduism where I'd be on lower status, or Islam where I'd be a Kaami in comparison to a landowner jatt.

That's how much Biradari system in Punjab is complex.

In Toronto from what I noticed, inter caste Sikh marriages are not much of an issue in Canada , from what a friend told me, though they each go to their own designated Gurdwara. In Houston , where one of my best friends is from its very segregated on those lines in terms of who is the committee but any person can attend the gurudwara. She mentioned in 2009/10 there was schism and a good number of people joined the Ravi sect. She mentioned that its not rigid but it is complex like you did.

poi
06-03-2018, 06:43 AM
I have visited UP and other central Indian states couple of times. It is one of the most caste infested states. Even different Muslims look down on each other. But not as much as Hindus, just give a visit to Varanasi or Allahabad, you'd be surprised.

The difference in Punjabi biradari system is all major Biradaris in Punjab look down on each other. There is no set system like Hinduism, or is very thin in term of influence. So you've Khatris Sikhs, jatt Sikhs, rajput Sikhs, Ramgarhia sikhs, ahluwalia Sikhs dissing each other, because of sikhism all of these Avarna or outcaste groups got wealthy and now consider themselves superior. I'm a Sikh Ramgarhia, in Hindus and Islam I'd be considered a Tarkhan, a worker class, a mid caste status. But because Sikhism allowed us to rise in terms of social and economical status, you'll see Ramgarhias looking down on jatts stating they're uneducated or not very bright, which is opposite to what would happen in Hinduism where I'd be on lower status, or Islam where I'd be a Kaami in comparison to a landowner jatt.

That's how much Biradari system in Punjab is complex.

I have been to Banaras/Varanasi a few times as a kid and as an adult and remember being asked of ethnicity/caste a bunch of times 20 years ago and 3 years ago. In the future, we could be asked about our haplogroups and Harappa scores.

khanabadoshi
06-06-2018, 10:41 PM
any dna info on Baloch Jatts? or Jatts of KP province of Pakistan? Would they be similar to Punjabi Jatts or more similar to Baloch and Pashtuns?

I have a cousin who is half Uppal from Peshawar, but I haven't tested him or his father. I imagine many Hindkowan are Jatt, and probably place something like a Khatri or Kohistani.
[I think Khatri and Hindkowan are one in the same thing or some how related.]

surbakhunWeesste
06-06-2018, 11:26 PM
Whats your ethnic background?

He has it listed on his profile on the side bar?
"Ethnicity Baloch Kashmiri Uzbek Kho"

bol_nat
06-08-2018, 02:08 AM
I have visited UP and other central Indian states couple of times. It is one of the most caste infested states. Even different Muslims look down on each other. But not as much as Hindus, just give a visit to Varanasi or Allahabad, you'd be surprised.

The difference in Punjabi biradari system is all major Biradaris in Punjab look down on each other. There is no set system like Hinduism, or is very thin in term of influence. So you've Khatris Sikhs, jatt Sikhs, rajput Sikhs, Ramgarhia sikhs, ahluwalia Sikhs dissing each other, because of sikhism all of these Avarna or outcaste groups got wealthy and now consider themselves superior. I'm a Sikh Ramgarhia, in Hindus and Islam I'd be considered a Tarkhan, a worker class, a mid caste status. But because Sikhism allowed us to rise in terms of social and economical status, you'll see Ramgarhias looking down on jatts stating they're uneducated or not very bright, which is opposite to what would happen in Hinduism where I'd be on lower status, or Islam where I'd be a Kaami in comparison to a landowner jatt.

That's how much Biradari system in Punjab is complex.

I will not say that have anything to do with islam though. You can blame backward punjabi culture for that. Kammi literally mean worker in punjabi which overtime was turned in to derogatory word. Maybe not blame punjabi culture as a whole but some communities living in punjab. We know rural jatts tend to be conservative and backward.

bol_nat
06-08-2018, 02:49 AM
I have a cousin who is half Uppal from Peshawar, but I haven't tested him or his father. I imagine many Hindkowan are Jatt, and probably place something like a Khatri or Kohistani.
[I think Khatri and Hindkowan are one in the same thing or some how related.]

Pretty sure uppal are khatris, maybe he claim to be jatt. Uppals were found in Gujranwala. I bet his ancestors migrated to hazara region few centuries ago. Khatri is caste and hindko is linguistic group.

Hari singh nalwa is historical figure and uppal khatri. There is punjabi singer Shiraz Uppal from Lahore.

And this guy

"Dr Khalil Uppal after running a small pharmacy for a decade , founded Uppal Chemical industries in Pakistan in 1950."

http://uppalpharma.com/about-us/history/

Lahore Uppal who founded chemical industries in Pakistan? 100% khatri if I had to bet. But there could be uppal jatt that I don't know off.

There are hardly any jats in old british census of Hazara region. The ones in KP villages outside hazara were chuhras who claimed to be jats as per British census. Hazara region seem to be dominated by gujjars, pathans, awans and some other castes.

this is from 1883

"For the frontier, however, the figui-es of Abstract No. 72 must be added, which shows the Chuhras and Kutanas who have returned themselves as Jats. He is one of the village menials proper, who receive a customary share of the produce and perform certain duties."

http://www.indpaedia.com/ind/index.php/The_Scavenger_Castes_(Punjab)

MonkeyDLuffy
06-08-2018, 02:54 AM
Pretty sure uppal are khatris, maybe he claim to be jatt. Uppals were found in Gujranwala. I bet his ancestors migrated to hazara region few centuries ago. Khatri is caste and hindko is linguistic group.

Hari singh nalwa is historical figure and uppal khatri. There is punjabi singer Shiraz Uppal from Lahore.

And this guy

"Dr Khalil Uppal after running a small pharmacy for a decade , founded Uppal Chemical industries in Pakistan in 1950."

http://uppalpharma.com/about-us/history/

Lahore Uppal who founded chemical industries in Pakistan? 100% khatri if I had to bet. But there could be uppal jatt that I don't know off.

There are hardly any jats in old british census of Hazara region. The ones in KP villages outside hazara were chuhras who claimed to be jats as per British census. Hazara region seem to be dominated by gujjars, pathans, awans and some other castes.

this is from 1883

"For the frontier, however, the figui-es of Abstract No. 72 must be added, which shows the Chuhras and Kutanas who have returned themselves as Jats. He is one of the village menials proper, who receive a customary share of the produce and perform certain duties."

http://www.indpaedia.com/ind/index.php/The_Scavenger_Castes_(Punjab)

There are uppal jatts, I have couple of uppal jatt friends. They're sikh though.

bol_nat
06-08-2018, 03:09 AM
There are uppal jatts, I have couple of uppal jatt friends. They're sikh though.

Then he's likely jatt. Though Dr Khalil Uppal more then likely is khatri. Singer Shiraz Uppal could be jatt.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-08-2018, 03:12 AM
Then he's likely jatt. Though Dr Khalil Uppal more then likely is khatri. Singer Shiraz Uppal could be jatt.

https://www.jatland.com/home/Uppal

26284729292
07-12-2018, 10:00 AM
Curious if you can elaborate on iyer subcastes. I'm mixed as far as brahmins go, with my mom being a up brahmin and dad an iyer, but i was curious as far as iyer subcastes go. I suspect vadama based on what I know about it, but I'd love some more info on it.

26284729292
07-12-2018, 10:01 AM
Soulblighter, could you help me out, re my post?

YajmirMiryaj
07-18-2018, 12:19 PM
Delete

YajmirMiryaj
07-19-2018, 09:40 AM
I have been to Banaras/Varanasi a few times as a kid and as an adult and remember being asked of ethnicity/caste a bunch of times 20 years ago and 3 years ago. In the future, we could be asked about our haplogroups and Harappa scores.

Hi, POI. I am doing some research on Nepali Bahun surnames and Bahun Banshawali/Pustawali. Do you have information on surnames and Y-DNA haplogroups. I want to find out if there is variation in Y-DNA haplogroups within the same surname and if there is variation between the Y-dna haplogroup in relation to the gotra. For example the surname Regmi and Rimal are supposed to have originated from the same paternal ancestor who migrated from Kannauj to far western Nepal and the descendants took on name of the respective village they settled. Since I am from Nepal i haven't gotten tested my dna as of now. But my sister is in USA and I can test my DNA there when I visit her next year. It would be great if I could create a list of surnames and the respective Y-DNA haplogroups that I could analyze further. I got only half a dozen sample from Gedmatch, which is too few to draw conclusions. Also those who test their DNA generally also have their relative tested, so it wouldn't be a surprise if their Y-DNA haplogroup corresponds to the surname. But it would be interesting to see if two people who have the same surname but come from different parts of the country have the same Y-DNA haplogroup. I have a feeling that a lot of the Banshawali may be wrong and may have been manufactured.

So, if you give me some information, probably a list of surnames and corresponding Y-DNA Haplogroup that show up in you relative list in 23andme site would be great. Thank you.

poi
07-19-2018, 01:41 PM
Hi, POI. I am doing some research on Nepali Bahun surnames and Bahun Banshawali/Pustawali. Do you have information on surnames and Y-DNA haplogroups. I want to find out if there is variation in Y-DNA haplogroups within the same surname and if there is variation between the Y-dna haplogroup in relation to the gotra. For example the surname Regmi and Rimal are supposed to have originated from the same paternal ancestor who migrated from Kannauj to far western Nepal and the descendants took on name of the respective village they settled. Since I am from Nepal i haven't gotten tested my dna as of now. But my sister is in USA and I can test my DNA there when I visit her next year. It would be great if I could create a list of surnames and the respective Y-DNA haplogroups that I could analyze further. I got only half a dozen sample from Gedmatch, which is too few to draw conclusions. Also those who test their DNA generally also have their relative tested, so it wouldn't be a surprise if their Y-DNA haplogroup corresponds to the surname. But it would be interesting to see if two people who have the same surname but come from different parts of the country have the same Y-DNA haplogroup. I have a feeling that a lot of the Banshawali may be wrong and may have been manufactured.

So, if you give me some information, probably a list of surnames and corresponding Y-DNA Haplogroup that show up in you relative list in 23andme site would be great. Thank you.

The best way to do surname to Y-dna is, IMO, through 23andme relatives list. Since we're basically inbred, it will basically list you all 23andme Bahuns(in hundreds) as "relatives". Those who have not anonymized themselves can be checked for their surnames and Y-dna. There is another bahun in this forum - pnb. He probably already has done this surname-ydna mapping. From what I've seen, most ydna is R1a, then followed by R2, J2, Q, C, and H. One thing for sure -- there seems to be surname-ydna consistency. There are surnames like Tripathi and Baral turning up C (and to some lesser extent J) consistently, while other surnames do not at all have C.

RougeS
07-19-2018, 04:58 PM
Hi, POI. I am doing some research on Nepali Bahun surnames and Bahun Banshawali/Pustawali. Do you have information on surnames and Y-DNA haplogroups. I want to find out if there is variation in Y-DNA haplogroups within the same surname and if there is variation between the Y-dna haplogroup in relation to the gotra. For example the surname Regmi and Rimal are supposed to have originated from the same paternal ancestor who migrated from Kannauj to far western Nepal and the descendants took on name of the respective village they settled. Since I am from Nepal i haven't gotten tested my dna as of now. But my sister is in USA and I can test my DNA there when I visit her next year. It would be great if I could create a list of surnames and the respective Y-DNA haplogroups that I could analyze further. I got only half a dozen sample from Gedmatch, which is too few to draw conclusions. Also those who test their DNA generally also have their relative tested, so it wouldn't be a surprise if their Y-DNA haplogroup corresponds to the surname. But it would be interesting to see if two people who have the same surname but come from different parts of the country have the same Y-DNA haplogroup. I have a feeling that a lot of the Banshawali may be wrong and may have been manufactured.

So, if you give me some information, probably a list of surnames and corresponding Y-DNA Haplogroup that show up in you relative list in 23andme site would be great. Thank you.

I’m not sure with consistency of gotra with y-dna.Gotra isnt quite accurate division like people presume it to be.There is like a chain of one gotra descending from another like Atreya is father of Agastya and Vasistha,who is father of kaudinya...So if gotra is accurate,everyone with these 4 gotras should have same paternal line & haplogroup.It’ll include;
Atreya:Aryal, Devkota, Dawadi, Dulal, Kalikote (Khadka), Paudel, Pokharel (Pani), Rosyara, Sharma, Sigdel, Thapa (Bagale)
Agastya: Dhungel
Kaudinya : Achraya, Baskota, Joshi, Khadka, Kharel, Marashini, Neupane, Pakurel, Paneru, Parajuli, Sapkota, Satyal, Thapa (Bagale and Gamle), Trital
Vashista : Bhandari, Bhattarai, Chalise, Dwadi, Gaire, Kharel, Mudabhari, Raut, Suyal (Garthi), Suyal (Thapa), Thangsine etc.
And other gotras too might be closely related like these 4 (I’ve not bothered to search stuffs on other gotras).Since there are people of other ethinic group included in these gotras and one of the gotra,Kashyap is so inclusive that even one with no gotra belongs to that gotra & even plants and animals Lmao.So,I don’t think sharing gotra=sharing same y-dna.But who knows..

YajmirMiryaj
07-19-2018, 06:23 PM
I’m not sure with consistency of gotra with y-dna.Gotra isnt quite accurate division like people presume it to be.There is like a chain of one gotra descending from another like Atreya is father of Agastya and Vasistha,who is father of kaudinya...So if gotra is accurate,everyone with these 4 gotras should have same paternal line & haplogroup.It’ll include;
Atreya:Aryal, Devkota, Dawadi, Dulal, Kalikote (Khadka), Paudel, Pokharel (Pani), Rosyara, Sharma, Sigdel, Thapa (Bagale)
Agastya: Dhungel
Kaudinya : Achraya, Baskota, Joshi, Khadka, Kharel, Marashini, Neupane, Pakurel, Paneru, Parajuli, Sapkota, Satyal, Thapa (Bagale and Gamle), Trital
Vashista : Bhandari, Bhattarai, Chalise, Dwadi, Gaire, Kharel, Mudabhari, Raut, Suyal (Garthi), Suyal (Thapa), Thangsine etc.
And other gotras too might be closely related like these 4 (I’ve not bothered to search stuffs on other gotras).Since there are people of other ethinic group included in these gotras and one of the gotra,Kashyap is so inclusive that even one with no gotra belongs to that gotra & even plants and animals Lmao.So,I don’t think sharing gotra=sharing same y-dna.But who knows..

I also think gotra and Y-dna is not co-related in general but it may co-relate amongst Bahun only, if Bahuns took gotra systematically. But I want to find out the relation between surname and Y-dna. I am Rimal and we have elaborate banshawali. Remember bahuns have great tradition of writing banshawali. Like the Newars who have their own Gopal Bhansawali, we Bahuns also have a tradition of writing "Bhasha Banshawali". We even wrote Bhasa bansawali for prominent Newar people and kings. There are Bhasha Bansawali dating back to hundreds of years ago in Madan Puraskar Pustakalaya.

According to Rimal banshawali, Rimal and Regmi both descend from the same paternal ancestor. Rimal and Regmi also have the same Kaushik gotra. You can get some more detail on Rimal society website (rimalsociety.com.np). According to Gedmatch, one guy with surname Rimal has tested to J2 Ydna. I wonder if all Rimals are J2. My own family is supposed to have migrated from Nuwakot to Kathmandu. But we have no relatives in Kathmandu except a couple of family, and we have lost connection to anyone in Nuwakot. So, I want to check if all surnames have only one haplogroup. Usually only those who go to USA have their DNA tested and they generally also have their relatives tested. So, it is not a surprise to see co-relation between surname and Y-dna haplogroup in 23andme. However, say two Rimals from disparate places such as Nuwakot and Accham (both have large population of Rimals) have the same haplogroup and also if the Regmis have the same haplogroup then we can conclude that the banshawali is somewhat correct. There are also other multiple surnames who are supposed to have descended from the same ancestor.

BTW I was reading some old threads here and I have found that Bahuns here don't have a clue about Kumain and Upadhyaya distinction and people are correlating it with geography lol (like purbe and paschime). They should probably talk to knowledgeable elders because they are confused out of their minds lol

poi
07-19-2018, 07:35 PM
I also think gotra and Y-dna is not co-related in general but it may co-relate amongst Bahun only, if Bahuns took gotra systematically. But I want to find out the relation between surname and Y-dna. I am Rimal and we have elaborate banshawali. Remember bahuns have great tradition of writing banshawali. Like the Newars who have their own Gopal Bhansawali, we Bahuns also have a tradition of writing "Bhasha Banshawali". We even wrote Bhasa bansawali for prominent Newar people and kings. There are Bhasha Bansawali dating back to hundreds of years ago in Madan Puraskar Pustakalaya.

According to Rimal banshawali, Rimal and Regmi both descend from the same paternal ancestor. Rimal and Regmi also have the same Kaushik gotra. You can get some more detail on Rimal society website (rimalsociety.com.np). According to Gedmatch, one guy with surname Rimal has tested to J2 Ydna. I wonder if all Rimals are J2. My own family is supposed to have migrated from Nuwakot to Kathmandu. But we have no relatives in Kathmandu except a couple of family, and we have lost connection to anyone in Nuwakot. So, I want to check if all surnames have only one haplogroup. Usually only those who go to USA have their DNA tested and they generally also have their relatives tested. So, it is not a surprise to see co-relation between surname and Y-dna haplogroup in 23andme. However, say two Rimals from disparate places such as Nuwakot and Accham (both have large population of Rimals) have the same haplogroup and also if the Regmis have the same haplogroup then we can conclude that the banshawali is somewhat correct. There are also other multiple surnames who are supposed to have descended from the same ancestor.

BTW I was reading some old threads here and I have found that Bahuns here don't have a clue about Kumain and Upadhyaya distinction and people are correlating it with geography lol (like purbe and paschime). They should probably talk to knowledgeable elders because they are confused out of their minds lol

Lol, please educate me. The fact that you're saying Kumai and Upahdyaya, sounds like you think only Purbe are Upadhyaya. I am married to a Purbe and I thought Kumai and Purbe were both upadhyaya, so only jaise bahuns aren't Upahdyaya. Isn't that so? I'm all ears bro. Educate me :)

YajmirMiryaj
07-19-2018, 07:53 PM
Lol, please educate me. The fact that you're saying Kumai and Upahdyaya, sounds like you think only Purbe are Upadhyaya. I am married to a Purbe and I thought Kumai and Purbe were both upadhyaya, so only jaise bahuns aren't Upahdyaya. Isn't that so? I'm all ears bro. Educate me :)

Okay I will explain you the divisions amognst Bahuns :p There is actually no divison amongst Bahun by geography i.e. Purbe/Paschime. All Bahuns whether from the east or west ultimately migrated from the west and there is no restriction on marriage among them. Paschime Bahuns is not a synonym of Kumain Bahun. The two main divisions amonst Bahun is Upadhaya and Kumain. Both eastern(Purbiya) and western(Paschime) Bahuns can be either Upadhyaya and Kumain. Up until recently Upadyaya and Kumain didn't intermarry and Upadhyaya Bahuns looked down on Kumain Bahuns. However that has changed recently. So, there is absolutely no way to distinguish between eastern(Purbe) and western(Paschime) Bahuns based on surnames. They are the same. However, there is a way to distinguish between Upadhyaya and Kumain Bahuns based on surname. Upadhyaya Bahuns take their surnames from villages of Western parts of Nepal such as Dahal, Pokharel, Rimal, Aryal, etc etc Whereas Kumain Bahuns have surnames that are generally common with the UP/Bihar Brahmins. The name Kumain is similar to the word "Kumaon". But Kumain bahuns genrally don't have anything special to do with Kumaon. In fact Upadhaya Bahuns also migrated from the western region of Nepal around 1200 CE from various parts of India (UP/Kashmir/Punjab etc). When upadhaya Bahuns migrated to Western Nepal there was no established tradition of taking surnames so they took generic surnames such as Bhatta, Pandit or Khas occupational surnames like (Adhikari,Bhandari) . But later on they took on surnames from villages in Western Nepal. Whereas, Kumain Bahuns are supposed to have migrated from UP/Bihar some time later (few centuries after initial wave of migration) probably through Kumaon also, after the tradition of taking surnames was well established, which is the reason why Upadhyaya Bahun somewhat looked down on Kumain Bahun as Kumains are considered later migrants. Kumains mostly have the same surname as UP/Bihar Brahmins like Mishra, Dixit, Ojha, Oli, Tiwari, Tripathi, Chalise, Bhattarai, Panthi etc etc (except Acharya(some)/Adhikari/Bhandari etc which are adopted Khas occupational surnames). Rabindra Mishra, Kanak Mani Dixit, K.P. Oli etc are Kumain Bahuns. So, you can separate between Kumain and Upadhyaya Bahuns by surname.

The other distinction is between Jaishi and Non-Jaishi Bahuns. Both Upadhaya and Kumain can lower to Jaishi status. A Bahun becomes Jaishi if he marries to a widow or marries without taking care of gotra exogamy.

poi
07-19-2018, 08:30 PM
Okay I will explain you the divisions amognst Bahuns :p There is actually no divison amongst Bahun by geography i.e. Purbe/Paschime. All Bahuns whether from the east or west ultimately migrated from the west and there is no restriction on marriage among them. Paschime Bahuns is not a synonym of Kumain Bahun. The two main divisions amonst Bahun is Upadhaya and Kumain. Both eastern(Purbiya) and western(Paschime) Bahuns can be either Upadhyaya and Kumain. Up until recently Upadyaya and Kumain didn't intermarry and Upadhyaya Bahuns looked down on Kumain Bahuns. However that has changed recently. So, there is absolutely no way to distinguish between eastern(Purbe) and western(Paschime) Bahuns based on surnames. They are the same. However, there is a way to distinguish between Upadhyaya and Kumain Bahuns based on surname. Upadhyaya Bahuns take their surnames from villages of Western parts of Nepal such as Dahal, Pokharel, Rimal, Aryal, etc etc Whereas Kumain Bahuns have surnames that are generally common with the UP/Bihar Brahmins. The name Kumain is similar to the word "Kumaon". But Kumain bahuns genrally don't have anything special to do with Kumaon. In fact Upadhaya Bahuns also migrated from the western region of Nepal around 1200 CE from various parts of India (UP/Kashmir/Punjab etc). When upadhaya Bahuns migrated to Western Nepal there was no established tradition of taking surnames so they took generic surnames such as Bhatta, Pandit or Khas occupational surnames like (Adhikari,Bhandari) . But later on they took on surnames from villages in Western Nepal. Whereas, Kumain Bahuns are supposed to have migrated from UP/Bihar some time later (few centuries after initial wave of migration) probably through Kumaon also, after the tradition of taking surnames was well established, which is the reason why Upadhyaya Bahun somewhat looked down on Kumain Bahun as Kumains are considered later migrants. Kumains mostly have the same surname as UP/Bihar Brahmins like Mishra, Dixit, Ojha, Oli, Tiwari, Tripathi, Chalise, Bhattarai, Panthi etc etc (except Acharya(some)/Adhikari/Bhandari etc which are adopted Khas occupational surnames). Rabindra Mishra, Kanak Mani Dixit, K.P. Oli etc are Kumain Bahuns. So, you can separate between Kumain and Upadhyaya Bahuns by surname.

The other distinction is between Jaishi and Non-Jaishi Bahuns. Both Upadhaya and Kumain can lower to Jaishi status. A Bahun becomes Jaishi if he marries to a widow or marries without taking care of gotra exogamy.

Thanks. So, to say it back to you:
1. Geographically, there are 2 types of Khas bahuns: a) Purbe (Eastern) and b) Paschime (Western). Both can be upadhyayas.
2. Chronologically, there are 2 types of Khas bahuns: a) Upadhyaya (Older migrants) and b) Kumai (newer migrants). Upadhyayas usually have Khas village/occupational surnames, while Kumais have surnames identical to Gangetic plains Brahmins.
3. Status-wise, there are 2 types of bahuns: a) Jaise and b) non-Jaise. Jaises, at some point in their history, followed taboo practices, so their entire clan got downgraded. Also, Purbes looked down on Kumais lol. My wife(purbe) grandmother is pretty open about this -- I have heard her say "kumai ko ghumai"('kumais are deceivers') lol.

I knew of #1 and #3 but not #2. I knew surnames were the way to determine Kumai vs Purbe, but not Kumai vs Uphadhaya. Basically, the prior-migrated Khas bahuns took the village names of their new homes and looked down on newer-arrival Khas bahuns that were basically stuck with their Gangetic plains surnames? LMAO!

If what you say is correct, which I still have doubts, btw, no offence, but since my side of the family has entirely Gangetic-plains surnames and not the village-name surnames, that is the only reason why I'm Kumai. Not because my family originated from western Nepal just 50 years ago.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 12:50 AM
I also think gotra and Y-dna is not co-related in general but it may co-relate amongst Bahun only, if Bahuns took gotra systematically. But I want to find out the relation between surname and Y-dna. I am Rimal and we have elaborate banshawali. Remember bahuns have great tradition of writing banshawali. Like the Newars who have their own Gopal Bhansawali, we Bahuns also have a tradition of writing "Bhasha Banshawali". We even wrote Bhasa bansawali for prominent Newar people and kings. There are Bhasha Bansawali dating back to hundreds of years ago in Madan Puraskar Pustakalaya.

According to Rimal banshawali, Rimal and Regmi both descend from the same paternal ancestor. Rimal and Regmi also have the same Kaushik gotra. You can get some more detail on Rimal society website (rimalsociety.com.np). According to Gedmatch, one guy with surname Rimal has tested to J2 Ydna. I wonder if all Rimals are J2. My own family is supposed to have migrated from Nuwakot to Kathmandu. But we have no relatives in Kathmandu except a couple of family, and we have lost connection to anyone in Nuwakot. So, I want to check if all surnames have only one haplogroup. Usually only those who go to USA have their DNA tested and they generally also have their relatives tested. So, it is not a surprise to see co-relation between surname and Y-dna haplogroup in 23andme. However, say two Rimals from disparate places such as Nuwakot and Accham (both have large population of Rimals) have the same haplogroup and also if the Regmis have the same haplogroup then we can conclude that the banshawali is somewhat correct. There are also other multiple surnames who are supposed to have descended from the same ancestor.

BTW I was reading some old threads here and I have found that Bahuns here don't have a clue about Kumain and Upadhyaya distinction and people are correlating it with geography lol (like purbe and paschime). They should probably talk to knowledgeable elders because they are confused out of their minds lol

Rimals are J2a's. Dhakals are J2bs. Pokharels are J2bs (btw, Pokharels could be Dudh or Pani Pokharel, so they might've different lineages and they took their surname based on Pokhari village in Far Western Nepal). Not sure about Regmis though. What I've found is that being a same gotra doesn't mean you share same y lineage. But if two surnames share same gotra and same y lineage, then it's very much likely that you descend from same ancestor.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 01:21 AM
Okay I will explain you the divisions amognst Bahuns :p There is actually no divison amongst Bahun by geography i.e. Purbe/Paschime. All Bahuns whether from the east or west ultimately migrated from the west and there is no restriction on marriage among them. Paschime Bahuns is not a synonym of Kumain Bahun. The two main divisions amonst Bahun is Upadhaya and Kumain. Both eastern(Purbiya) and western(Paschime) Bahuns can be either Upadhyaya and Kumain. Up until recently Upadyaya and Kumain didn't intermarry and Upadhyaya Bahuns looked down on Kumain Bahuns. However that has changed recently. So, there is absolutely no way to distinguish between eastern(Purbe) and western(Paschime) Bahuns based on surnames. They are the same. However, there is a way to distinguish between Upadhyaya and Kumain Bahuns based on surname. Upadhyaya Bahuns take their surnames from villages of Western parts of Nepal such as Dahal, Pokharel, Rimal, Aryal, etc etc Whereas Kumain Bahuns have surnames that are generally common with the UP/Bihar Brahmins. The name Kumain is similar to the word "Kumaon". But Kumain bahuns genrally don't have anything special to do with Kumaon. In fact Upadhaya Bahuns also migrated from the western region of Nepal around 1200 CE from various parts of India (UP/Kashmir/Punjab etc). When upadhaya Bahuns migrated to Western Nepal there was no established tradition of taking surnames so they took generic surnames such as Bhatta, Pandit or Khas occupational surnames like (Adhikari,Bhandari) . But later on they took on surnames from villages in Western Nepal. Whereas, Kumain Bahuns are supposed to have migrated from UP/Bihar some time later (few centuries after initial wave of migration) probably through Kumaon also, after the tradition of taking surnames was well established, which is the reason why Upadhyaya Bahun somewhat looked down on Kumain Bahun as Kumains are considered later migrants. Kumains mostly have the same surname as UP/Bihar Brahmins like Mishra, Dixit, Ojha, Oli, Tiwari, Tripathi, Chalise, Bhattarai, Panthi etc etc (except Acharya(some)/Adhikari/Bhandari etc which are adopted Khas occupational surnames). Rabindra Mishra, Kanak Mani Dixit, K.P. Oli etc are Kumain Bahuns. So, you can separate between Kumain and Upadhyaya Bahuns by surname.

The other distinction is between Jaishi and Non-Jaishi Bahuns. Both Upadhaya and Kumain can lower to Jaishi status. A Bahun becomes Jaishi if he marries to a widow or marries without taking care of gotra exogamy.

AFAIK Purbeys have these surnames: Aryal, Acharya, Adhikari, Bhattarai, Poudel, Rimal, Dahal, Dhakal, Dixit, Koirala, Sapkota, Ghimire, Pokharel, Khatiwada, Parajuli, Neupane, Regmi, Baskota, Devkota, Mishra, etc. Yes, Mishras can be Purbey as well (maybe they changed their surname lately based on title, just like Adhikari did, Adhikaris could be Khirchine, Kaubali, or Bhadare).

Kumain brahmins have these surnames: Mainali, Kandel, Gyawali, Pant/Panta, Prasain, Regmi, Upreti, Pandey, Mishra, Tiwari, etc. I think they're less in numbers as compared to Purbeys.

And Chhetris can also have Brahmin surnames. There are some others that are Chhetri specific like: Basnet, Karki, Chauhan, Khadka, etc.

Feel free to correct me, as these are surnames that I'm mostly familiar with. And I also noticed that a lot of Purbey bahuns have their origins in Far Western Nepal. They just took the name of village and put -al or -kota at the end. I also noticed that these days Bahuns replace -ryal with -rel. Like, Pyakuryal - Pyakurel, Paudyal - Paudel, Pokharyal - Pokharel, Gajuryal - Gajurel, Bashyal - Basel, Luityal - Luitel, Kandyal - Kandel.

Btw, I had never heard of word 'Purbey' back in Nepal. The place where I lived had three distinctions for brahmins: Upadhyay, Kumai, and Jaisi. From the internet forums, I came to know that Upadhyays and Jaisis in Eastern Nepal are called Purbeys. And Kumains also have Upadhyay and Jaisi designation. Honestly, idk what the difference between these two groups are. Because Poi and I are sharing on Gedmatch as well. Maybe political boundaries in the past separated us for a while.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 01:50 AM
I also think gotra and Y-dna is not co-related in general but it may co-relate amongst Bahun only, if Bahuns took gotra systematically. But I want to find out the relation between surname and Y-dna. I am Rimal and we have elaborate banshawali. Remember bahuns have great tradition of writing banshawali. Like the Newars who have their own Gopal Bhansawali, we Bahuns also have a tradition of writing "Bhasha Banshawali". We even wrote Bhasa bansawali for prominent Newar people and kings. There are Bhasha Bansawali dating back to hundreds of years ago in Madan Puraskar Pustakalaya.

According to Rimal banshawali, Rimal and Regmi both descend from the same paternal ancestor. Rimal and Regmi also have the same Kaushik gotra. You can get some more detail on Rimal society website (rimalsociety.com.np). According to Gedmatch, one guy with surname Rimal has tested to J2 Ydna. I wonder if all Rimals are J2. My own family is supposed to have migrated from Nuwakot to Kathmandu. But we have no relatives in Kathmandu except a couple of family, and we have lost connection to anyone in Nuwakot. So, I want to check if all surnames have only one haplogroup. Usually only those who go to USA have their DNA tested and they generally also have their relatives tested. So, it is not a surprise to see co-relation between surname and Y-dna haplogroup in 23andme. However, say two Rimals from disparate places such as Nuwakot and Accham (both have large population of Rimals) have the same haplogroup and also if the Regmis have the same haplogroup then we can conclude that the banshawali is somewhat correct. There are also other multiple surnames who are supposed to have descended from the same ancestor.

BTW I was reading some old threads here and I have found that Bahuns here don't have a clue about Kumain and Upadhyaya distinction and people are correlating it with geography lol (like purbe and paschime). They should probably talk to knowledgeable elders because they are confused out of their minds lol

Here's one Rimal from Gedmatch with Haplogroup J2a1b.

1 Baloch 35.85
2 S-Indian 34.47
3 NE-Euro 12.12
4 Caucasian 8.72
5 NE-Asian 4.28
6 Mediterranean 1.79
7 Beringian 1.08


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 nepalese-a_xing @ 4.522530
2 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 4.606842
3 nepali_harappa @ 4.905143
4 up-muslim_harappa @ 6.291217
5 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 6.375789
6 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 6.415129
7 punjabi_harappa @ 6.874925
8 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 7.082205
9 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 7.264647
10 up-brahmin_harappa @ 7.308689
11 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 7.531627
12 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 7.673196
13 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 7.948483
14 kashmiri_harappa @ 8.496007
15 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 8.554977
16 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 9.160827
17 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu @ 9.572692
18 bengali-brahmin_harappa @ 9.862947
19 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.940101
20 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 10.155052

poi
07-20-2018, 02:09 AM
AFAIK Purbeys have these surnames: Aryal, Acharya, Adhikari, Bhattarai, Poudel, Rimal, Dahal, Dhakal, Dixit, Koirala, Sapkota, Ghimire, Pokharel, Khatiwada, Parajuli, Neupane, Regmi, Baskota, Devkota, Mishra, etc. Yes, Mishras can be Purbey as well (maybe they changed their surname lately based on title, just like Adhikari did, Adhikaris could be Khirchine, Kaubali, or Bhadare).

Kumain brahmins have these surnames: Mainali, Kandel, Gyawali, Pant/Panta, Prasain, Regmi, Upreti, Pandey, Mishra, Tiwari, etc. I think they're less in numbers as compared to Purbeys.

And Chhetris can also have Brahmin surnames. There are some others that are Chhetri specific like: Basnet, Karki, Chauhan, Khadka, etc.

Feel free to correct me, as these are surnames that I'm mostly familiar with. And I also noticed that a lot of Purbey bahuns have their origins in Far Western Nepal. They just took the name of village and put -al or -kota at the end. I also noticed that these days Bahuns replace -ryal with -rel. Like, Pyakuryal - Pyakurel, Paudyal - Paudel, Pokharyal - Pokharel, Gajuryal - Gajurel, Bashyal - Basel, Luityal - Luitel, Kandyal - Kandel.

Btw, I had never heard of word 'Purbey' back in Nepal. The place where I lived had three distinctions for brahmins: Upadhyay, Kumai, and Jaisi. From the internet forums, I came to know that Upadhyays and Jaisis in Eastern Nepal are called Purbeys. And Kumains also have Upadhyay and Jaisi designation. Honestly, idk what the difference between these two groups are. Because Poi and I are sharing on Gedmatch as well. Maybe political boundaries in the past separated us for a while.

And the generation is like 4.5 lol between you/my-sis-in-law and me so a hundred or so years only. I don't buy the theory that Purbe were earlier than Kumai from 1200 CE. Are you kidding me. Looking at all these genetic data, including our inbreeding levels, it just does not look possible. Basically there was no difference 800 years ago. May be 30 families from present day Himachal Pradesh or Uttarakhand started it all 800 years ago and now there are 3 million bahuns. But I am keeping an open mind particularly if new genetic studies suggest otherwise.

parasar
07-20-2018, 02:29 AM
I also wonder if there was another group of Brahmans like us in old Nepal. (There are babhans in the terai, but these are of recent vintage.)

As I had mentioned in another thread there are stories in our co-lateral family of having migrated from Karnat. Nasik is mentioned. Mayurbans is mentioned.

In Nepal too we have the Brahman-Kshtra Nanyadev who came from Karnat to Mithila and then to Nepal. He was supposedly of the Mandava gotr which could be Manavya or Mandavya.
http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/ancientnepal/pdf/ancient_nepal_159_full.pdf

Now interestingly the Kadambas of Konkan have the Manavya gotra and have Mayur as their progenitor. "Kadamba kula ... The Talagunda inscription ... Brahman family ... Manavya
gotra... Brahman named Mayurasarmma ..." https://archive.org/stream/kadambakula035210mbp/kadambakula035210mbp_djvu.txt

So are the Chalooks of the same gotr. "Polikesi, surnamed Rana-Vikrama, who was purified by the final ablutions after the horse-sacrifice, and was a glory to the Chalukya race, who (as in other inscriptions) are said to be of the Manavya-gotra"
https://books.google.com/books?id=sscUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR15

"Nanyadeva is called a Mahasamantadhipati, Dharmavaloka, Mithtlesvara, Karnata-kula-bhusana. He had the titles of Rapanarayana and Nrpamalla, which reflect his southern origin. Nanya was a variation of Nanniya
and Nanni, a title commonly adopted by the Ganga and the Nolamba princes. Rajanarayana was a title adopted by the Calukya Somesvara and Nrpamalla is a synonym of Ahavamalla and Buvanaikamalla, the common Calukya birudas. It has been suggested that Nanya came to Mithila with a Calukya force and founded a kingdom there" https://gazetteers.maharashtra.gov.in/cultural.maharashtra.gov.in/english/gazetteer/History%20Part/chapter_9.pdf

While a lot looks similar, our Mayur is a bhat not a sharma, studied in Kashi not Kachi, and is of the Bhrigu gotr not Manavya gotr.

tipirneni
07-20-2018, 02:43 AM
I also wonder if there was another group of Brahmans like us in old Nepal. (There are babhans in the terai, but these are of recent vintage.)

As I had mentioned in another thread there are stories in our co-lateral family of having migrated from Karnat. Nasik is mentioned. Mayurbans is mentioned.

In Nepal too we have the Brahman-Kshtra Nanyadev who came from Karnat to Mithila and then to Nepal. He was supposedly of the Mandava gotr which could be Manavya or Mandavya.
http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/ancientnepal/pdf/ancient_nepal_159_full.pdf

Now interestingly the Kadambas of Konkan have the Manavya gotra and have Mayur as their progenitor. "Kadamba kula ... The Talagunda inscription ... Brahman family ... Manavya
gotra... Brahman named Mayurasarmma ..." https://archive.org/stream/kadambakula035210mbp/kadambakula035210mbp_djvu.txt

So are the Chalooks of the same gotr. "Polikesi, surnamed Rana-Vikrama, who was purified by the final ablutions after the horse-sacrifice, and was a glory to the Chalukya race, who (as in other inscriptions) are said to be of the Manavya-gotra"
https://books.google.com/books?id=sscUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR15

"Nanyadeva is called a Mahasamantadhipati, Dharmavaloka, Mithtlesvara, Karnata-kula-bhusana. He had the titles of Rapanarayana and Nrpamalla, which reflect his southern origin. Nanya was a variation of Nanniya
and Nanni, a title commonly adopted by the Ganga and the Nolamba princes. Rajanarayana was a title adopted by the Calukya Somesvara and Nrpamalla is a synonym of Ahavamalla and Buvanaikamalla, the common Calukya birudas. It has been suggested that Nanya came to Mithila with a Calukya force and founded a kingdom there" https://gazetteers.maharashtra.gov.in/cultural.maharashtra.gov.in/english/gazetteer/History%20Part/chapter_9.pdf

While a lot looks similar, our Mayur is a bhat not a sharma, studied in Kashi not Kachi, and is of the Bhrigu gotr not Manavya gotr.

I would say if there is agreement at genetic & inscriptions then the gotras & last names can be disregarded since the dominant or majority may give the Gotra once they new comer settles among those. In south too there are many such instances of gotras changing once the princes leave to another state and settle or change religion to buddhist

pnb123
07-20-2018, 02:47 AM
I also wonder if there was another group of Brahmans like us in old Nepal. (There are babhans in the terai, but these are of recent vintage.)

As I had mentioned in another thread there are stories in our co-lateral family of having migrated from Karnat. Nasik is mentioned. Mayurbans is mentioned.

In Nepal too we have the Brahman-Kshtra Nanyadev who came from Karnat to Mithila and then to Nepal. He was supposedly of the Mandava gotr which could be Manavya or Mandavya.
http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/ancientnepal/pdf/ancient_nepal_159_full.pdf

Now interestingly the Kadambas of Konkan have the Manavya gotra and have Mayur as their progenitor. "Kadamba kula ... The Talagunda inscription ... Brahman family ... Manavya
gotra... Brahman named Mayurasarmma ..." https://archive.org/stream/kadambakula035210mbp/kadambakula035210mbp_djvu.txt

So are the Chalooks of the same gotr. "Polikesi, surnamed Rana-Vikrama, who was purified by the final ablutions after the horse-sacrifice, and was a glory to the Chalukya race, who (as in other inscriptions) are said to be of the Manavya-gotra"
https://books.google.com/books?id=sscUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR15

"Nanyadeva is called a Mahasamantadhipati, Dharmavaloka, Mithtlesvara, Karnata-kula-bhusana. He had the titles of Rapanarayana and Nrpamalla, which reflect his southern origin. Nanya was a variation of Nanniya
and Nanni, a title commonly adopted by the Ganga and the Nolamba princes. Rajanarayana was a title adopted by the Calukya Somesvara and Nrpamalla is a synonym of Ahavamalla and Buvanaikamalla, the common Calukya birudas. It has been suggested that Nanya came to Mithila with a Calukya force and founded a kingdom there" https://gazetteers.maharashtra.gov.in/cultural.maharashtra.gov.in/english/gazetteer/History%20Part/chapter_9.pdf

While a lot looks similar, our Mayur is a bhat not a sharma, studied in Kashi not Kachi, and is of the Bhrigu gotr not Manavya gotr.

Maithili brahmins have been living in Nepal for really long time. They're mostly concentrated around Sapta Koshi - Janakpur region.

poi
07-20-2018, 03:43 AM
I also wonder if there was another group of Brahmans like us in old Nepal.

There had to be... most definetely. Before the Narasimhan study, I was sure Khas bahuns were descendents of Kashmiri or Himachali Brahmins; and Bihari Brahmins blended in within the Newari Brahmins not impacting us Khas bahuns... After all, Newars are 50% ANI (sorry, it is still relevant in this context) and their Admixture date corresponds with the Maithili Lichhavis pre-1000CE, so before the Khas migration. Add to the fact that Newaris follow Gangetic varna system, while Khas have no Vaishyas.

But the Narasimhan study shows our pseudo mix of AASI, IVCp, and SteppeMLBA almost identical to the Oriya, Bihari, and UP Brahmins and much different from Kashmiri Brahmins. We have higher steppe and higher AASI. The higher AASI could be explained by our extra ATB, but what explains our extra steppe and low IranN? Had to be from those Bihari Brahmins. Almost near identical. We're supposed to be not even this East before 250 years ago.

tipirneni
07-20-2018, 04:03 AM
There had to be... most definetely. Before the Narasimhan study, I was sure Khas bahuns were descendents of Kashmiri or Himachali Brahmins; and Bihari Brahmins blended in within the Newari Brahmins not impacting us Khas bahuns... After all, Newars are 50% ANI (sorry, it is still relevant in this context) and their Admixture date corresponds with the Maithili Lichhavis pre-1000CE, so before the Khas migration. Add to the fact that Newaris follow Gangetic varna system, while Khas have no Vaishyas.

But the Narasimhan study shows our pseudo mix of AASI, IVCp, and SteppeMLBA almost identical to the Oriya, Bihari, and UP Brahmins and much different from Kashmiri Brahmins. We have higher steppe and higher AASI. The higher AASI could be explained by our extra ATB, but what explains our extra steppe and low IranN? Had to be from those Bihari Brahmins. Almost near identical. We're supposed to be not even this East before 250 years ago.

Old Kiratas are supposed to be Turkic like East Iranic tribes. They moved into SubContinent late IA & mixed with Brahmins during IA time. There were numerous instances of Southern Relations of the ruling familes. Check this https://archive.org/stream/historyofmediaev01vaid/historyofmediaev01vaid_djvu.txt
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sivadeva married a daughter of a Maukhari king
and a grand-daughter of Adityasena, the Gupta king of
Magadha. This shows that the Nepal Lichhavi dynasty
was related to the ruling Kshatriya families in India.
His son Jayadeva came to the throne between 145 and 153
H. S. in the latter of which year his long interesting in-
scription is dated. The first portion of it gives the pedi-
gree of the Lichhavis and assigns them to the solar line.
With regard to this claim we will add a separate note.
But the Lichhavis were then in the eighth century A. D.
certainly treated as solar line Kshatriyas ; and this king
himself married a daughter of Harshadeva king of Assam,
Who ruled after Jayadeva we do not know. But the
Vamsavalis of Nepal give the chronology of early Nepal
kings in such a different manner that it is not possible to
give a connected line without the corroboration of in-
scriptions. It is, therefore, not possible to say when this
line of Lichhavi kings ended. A new Rajput dynasty was
certainly founded in the 9th century and with that two
new towns viz. Kirtipura and Bhaktapura or Bhatgaon as
it is now called were founded and also a new era called the
Nepali era dating from Oct. 879 A. D. (Saka SOI) was
founded by this new dynasty. When this new dynasty
came to power is also not certain ; but certain it is that
it is not the first king of this line who founded the era.
Dr. Wright mentions in the history of the preceding
dynasty towards the end that a Brahmin who was considered
an incarnation of Sankaracharya came to visit the country
to see how the rules and customs established by Sankara-
charya were observed. This fact we will discuss at length
in oui* next volume to which it pertains. We may
generally state that the Lichhavi line of kings came to
end sometime between 759 A. D. the date of Jayadeva's
long inscription and 879 A. D. the starting date of
the Nepali era.
--------------------------------------------------------

Many military families moved from Madhesi during setup of Eastern Chalukyan rule from reminants of Buddhist Sakyan army of Ikshvakus.

The Kamma ruler allied with Chalukyas like Velanati Chodas describe some of their ancesters had Chalukyan names and moved with them from Kirtipura in Madhesi.


checkout from
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.201713/2015.201713.The-History_djvu.txt

-------------------------------------------------

The Pithapur pillar inscriptions of Prithviswara® supplies
the names of the early ancestors of the Velananti Choda family up to
Malla 1 — the 7th in the list. Prince Indrasena born in the
fourth caste was adopted as son by king Yudhishtara and
bestowed with regal insignia. He ruled in Madhyadesa for a
long time with capital at Kirtipura. After some kings born
in his race passed away, Kirtivarman I was born. A descen-
dant of his was Mallavarman. His son was Rahadurjaya II.
Kirtivarman III was the son of Ranadurjaya II and his son was
iiMalla I, a contemporary of Trilochanapallava.
Tne History of Andhra Country

At this stage, we should consider some interesting sugges-
tions advanced by previous writers, based on the names —
Kirtivarman and Ranadurjaya— in the above list. Firstly,.
“Kirtivarman is distinctly a Western Chalukyan name while
Ranadurjaya sounds more like a title. It may not be wrong if
we suppose that the ancestors of this family might have migra-
ted from the west into the Telugu country either during or in
the wake of the invasions of Pulakesin 11. The establishment
of the Vengi branch of the Chalukya house and the names of
the early ancestors indicate it.”®

pnb123
07-20-2018, 04:07 AM
There had to be... most definetely. Before the Narasimhan study, I was sure Khas bahuns were descendents of Kashmiri or Himachali Brahmins; and Bihari Brahmins blended in within the Newari Brahmins not impacting us Khas bahuns... After all, Newars are 50% ANI (sorry, it is still relevant in this context) and their Admixture date corresponds with the Maithili Lichhavis pre-1000CE, so before the Khas migration. Add to the fact that Newaris follow Gangetic varna system, while Khas have no Vaishyas.

But the Narasimhan study shows our pseudo mix of AASI, IVCp, and SteppeMLBA almost identical to the Oriya, Bihari, and UP Brahmins and much different from Kashmiri Brahmins. We have higher steppe and higher AASI. The higher AASI could be explained by our extra ATB, but what explains our extra steppe and low IranN? Had to be from those Bihari Brahmins. Almost near identical. We're supposed to be not even this East before 250 years ago.

I think extra ATB kept our Iranian Neolithic low. I've generally found that people with low ATB either have elevated Baloch and/or Caucasian/NE Euro levels on HarappaWorld. It's very likely that we were offshoot from the same brahmin group which Punjabi, Rajasthani, UP/Bihari and Bengali brahmins also descend. While we migrated to the hills, UP/Bihari/Bengali brahmins migrated to the East. They mixed with high ASI tribals, while we mixed with people having high ATB ancestry. I am pretty sure that our AASI would get lower if they add in ATB. Punjabi/Kashmiri brahmins mixed with people having even higher Iranian Neolithic + Caucasian

Some Nepali Brahmins:
1 S-Indian 33.54
2 Baloch 33.33
3 NE-Euro 12.43
4 Caucasian 11.68
5 Siberian 3.82
6 SE-Asian 2.21
7 Mediterranean 1.23
8 NE-Asian 1.18


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 5.081854
2 nepali_harappa @ 5.844765
3 up-muslim_harappa @ 6.238360
4 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 7.337417
5 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 7.736953
6 kashmiri_harappa @ 8.055228
7 punjabi_harappa @ 8.179033
8 nepalese-a_xing @ 8.335855
9 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 8.414232
10 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 8.667632
11 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 9.084887
12 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.270207
13 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 9.733669
14 up-brahmin_harappa @ 9.984546
15 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 10.117092
16 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 10.157138
17 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 10.408001
18 haryana-jatt_harappa @ 10.909151
19 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 11.202085
20 bengali-brahmin_harappa @ 11.647230

1 S-Indian 33.73
2 Baloch 32.56
3 NE-Euro 12.35
4 Caucasian 10.33
5 NE-Asian 4.12
6 American 3.36
7 Mediterranean 1.29


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 nepali_harappa @ 4.949649
2 up-muslim_harappa @ 6.469909
3 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 6.954648
4 nepalese-a_xing @ 7.847258
5 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.008128
6 kashmiri_harappa @ 8.535119
7 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 8.937924
8 punjabi_harappa @ 8.951589
9 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 9.035977
10 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 9.537976
11 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 9.698093
12 up-brahmin_harappa @ 10.004496
13 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 10.008355
14 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 10.288382
15 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 10.540476
16 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 10.660815
17 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 10.770651
18 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 11.012162
19 bengali-brahmin_harappa @ 11.066908
20 haryana-jatt_harappa @ 11.224116

1 Baloch 35.53
2 S-Indian 34.08
3 NE-Euro 12.73
4 Caucasian 9.37
5 NE-Asian 4.37
6 American 2.18
7 Beringian 1.19


Finished reading population data. 377 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 4.847937
2 nepalese-a_xing @ 5.414669
3 nepali_harappa @ 5.784340
4 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 6.730026
5 up-muslim_harappa @ 6.936606
6 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 7.119226
7 punjabi_harappa @ 7.251114
8 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 7.387710
9 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.104378
10 kashmiri_harappa @ 8.250012
11 up-brahmin_harappa @ 8.346824
12 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 8.399205
13 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 8.430487
14 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 8.729922
15 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 8.741217
16 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 9.293921
17 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.427514
18 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu @ 10.496577
19 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 10.497772
20 haryana-jatt_harappa @ 10.655182

Your MIL is getting 15% NE Euro + 2% Med, which is highest I've seen for Nepali Brahmins (have not even seen any brahmin as of yet getting that much NE Euro + Med).

S-Indian 33.85
Baloch 33.41
Caucasian 7.43
NE-Euro 15.62
SE-Asian -
Siberian -
NE-Asian 5.22
Papuan 0.39
American 1.45
Beringian 0.38
Mediterranean 2.11
SW-Asian -
San -
E-African -
Pygmy 0.15
W-African -

pnb123
07-20-2018, 04:56 AM
Some other brahmins. I think Siberian/Beringian/American, etc is pretty consistent among all brahmin groups. NE Asian is only found in brahmins living near Himalayas or East India.

Punjabi Brahmin:
S Indian 34.79%
Baloch 36.97%
Caucasian 9.68%
NE Euro 12.05%
SE Asian 0.00%
Siberian 3.17%
NE Asian 0.00%
Papuan 0.14%
American 1.28%
Beringian 0.50%
Mediterranean 0.00%
SW Asian 1.43%

Jammu/Kashmir Brahmin (bored):
S Indian 34.77%
Baloch 36.50%
Caucasian 11.96%
NE Euro 10.21%
SE Asian 0.83%
Siberian 0.36%
NE Asian 1.91%
Papuan 0.00%
American 1.23%
Beringian 2.00%
Mediterranean 0.23%

Himachal Brahmin (Kenji):
S Indian 36.67%
Baloch 33.28%
Caucasian 11.27%
NE Euro 9.34%
SE Asian 0.94%
Siberian 2.55%
NE Asian 1.23%
Papuan 1.19%
American 0.57%
Beringian 1.71%
Mediterranean 0.00%
SW Asian 1.25%

Kashmiri Pandit:
S Indian 32.21%
Baloch 37.57%
Caucasian 11.40%
NE Euro 9.00%
SE Asian 0.55%
Siberian 2.40%
NE Asian 1.26%
Papuan 0.00%
American 1.55%
Beringian 0.70%
Mediterranean 2.28%
SW Asian 0.43%
San 0.00%
E African 0.37%

Bihari Brahmin (Parasar)
S Indian 39.12%
Baloch 37.52%
Caucasian 4.73%
NE Euro 10.60%
SE Asian 0.00%
Siberian 0.00%
NE Asian 2.14%
Papuan 1.29%
American 1.40%
Beringian 0.00%
Mediterranean 2.67%
SW Asian 0.49%

RougeS
07-20-2018, 05:02 AM
Maithili brahmins have been living in Nepal for really long time. They're mostly concentrated around Sapta Koshi - Janakpur region.
Well most of these parts were malarial forests unfit for inhabitation with thick” char kose jhadis” and wild animals until some large DDT measures to eradicate malaria that occurred during the 1960s.Ones that travelled with Malla dynasty to Kathmandu(Nepal valley) and now assimilated with Newars are the earliest Maithili/Tirhut Brahmin inhabitant.
Today there are Maithili Brahmins like Jha,Mishra,Trivedi(?) etc in Terai.Theyre kept in seperate Terai Brahmins category in census and aren’t included in the Brahmins category.

Even with those lists I’m not sure which ones are Kumai cuz in some sort of tribalism Brahmins call their neighboring group of Brahmins as jaisis and below them for no apparent reason.I saw Bhattarai in one of the kumai list but it’s not right I’ve Bhattarai relatives.Only kumais I know for sure are the Joshis who are wholly called Jaisis by some and maybe Parajuli.I don’t think Dixits are kumai as Dixit family were priests for Ranas and no way would Ranas hire Brahmins who are considered inferior for doing their rituals and astrology.Koiralas are one of the recent if not the most recent Hill Brahmins who migrated from India they were apparently Kshatriyas who escaped some Muslim conquest to their lands,even my Koirala friend confirmed it when several years ago back in our school a teacher was saying so.They lived in around Koiralo tree (it’s flowers are used to make fresh pickles) in eastern Nepal and got that name.They should be in that kumai list too if it’s based on relatively recent immigration but they aren’t.I think all these divisions are vague & misleading.

tipirneni
07-20-2018, 05:11 AM
Some other brahmins. I think Siberian/Beringian/American, etc is pretty consistent among all brahmin groups. NE Asian is only found in brahmins living near Himalayas or East India.

Punjabi Brahmin:
S Indian 34.79%
Baloch 36.97%
Caucasian 9.68%
NE Euro 12.05%
SE Asian 0.00%
Siberian 3.17%
NE Asian 0.00%
Papuan 0.14%
American 1.28%
Beringian 0.50%
Mediterranean 0.00%
SW Asian 1.43%

Jammu/Kashmir Brahmin (bored):
S Indian 34.77%
Baloch 36.50%
Caucasian 11.96%
NE Euro 10.21%
SE Asian 0.83%
Siberian 0.36%
NE Asian 1.91%
Papuan 0.00%
American 1.23%
Beringian 2.00%
Mediterranean 0.23%

Himachal Brahmin (Kenji):
S Indian 36.67%
Baloch 33.28%
Caucasian 11.27%
NE Euro 9.34%
SE Asian 0.94%
Siberian 2.55%
NE Asian 1.23%
Papuan 1.19%
American 0.57%
Beringian 1.71%
Mediterranean 0.00%
SW Asian 1.25%

Kashmiri Pandit:
S Indian 32.21%
Baloch 37.57%
Caucasian 11.40%
NE Euro 9.00%
SE Asian 0.55%
Siberian 2.40%
NE Asian 1.26%
Papuan 0.00%
American 1.55%
Beringian 0.70%
Mediterranean 2.28%
SW Asian 0.43%
San 0.00%
E African 0.37%

Bihari Brahmin (Parasar)
S Indian 39.12%
Baloch 37.52%
Caucasian 4.73%
NE Euro 10.60%
SE Asian 0.00%
Siberian 0.00%
NE Asian 2.14%
Papuan 1.29%
American 1.40%
Beringian 0.00%
Mediterranean 2.67%
SW Asian 0.49%

Non Brahmins like Kammas have too..

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 55.23
2 Baloch 35.6
3 Caucasian 5.61
4 Siberian 1.25
5 NE-Asian 0.99
6 Papuan 0.61
7 American 0.48
8 SE-Asian 0.16
9 SW-Asian 0.07

pnb123
07-20-2018, 05:17 AM
Well most of these parts were malarial forests unfit for inhabitation with thick” char kose jhadis” and wild animals until some large DDT measures to eradicate malaria that occurred during the 1960s.Ones that travelled with Malla dynasty to Kathmandu(Nepal valley) and now assimilated with Newars are the earliest Maithili/Tirhut Brahmin inhabitant.
Today there are Maithili Brahmins like Jha,Mishra,Trivedi(?) etc in Terai.Theyre kept in seperate Terai Brahmins category in census and aren’t included in the Brahmins category.

Even with those lists I’m not sure which ones are Kumai cuz in some sort of tribalism Brahmins call their neighboring group of Brahmins as jaisis and below them for no apparent reason.I saw Bhattarai in one of the kumai list but it’s not right I’ve Bhattarai relatives.Only kumais I know for sure are the Joshis who are wholly called Jaisis by some and maybe Parajuli.I don’t think Dixits are kumai as Dixit family were priests for Ranas and no way would Ranas hire Brahmins who are considered inferior for doing their rituals and astrology.Koiralas are one of the recent if not the most recent Hill Brahmins who migrated from India they were apparently Kshatriyas who escaped some Muslim conquest to their lands,even my Koirala friend confirmed it when several years ago back in our school a teacher was saying so.They lived in around Koiralo tree (it’s flowers are used to make fresh pickles) in eastern Nepal and got that name.They should be in that kumai list too if it’s based on relatively recent immigration but they aren’t.I think all these divisions are vague & misleading.

Parajulis are purbeys as well. Koiralas most likely migrated from Koiralakot, which is in Far Western Nepal (Doti). Same goes for other surnames like Khatiwada. I've relatives with surname Koirala and they're Upadhyas as well. I think Joshis/Jaisis were hired as astrologers, right ?

Start with the country's unification in 1768. In contrast to its portrayal as a multi-national state by Prithvi Narayan Shah, unifier of modern Nepal, the nobility of pre-unification Gorkha palace continued to rule the roost in the new unified territories comprised of the old chiefdoms of Khasan, Magarat, Newa, Khambuwan, Limbuwan, Tirahut, Simranghad, etc. This nobility came from chhatharghar (Pandey, Panta, Aryal, Rana, Bohara, and Khanal, all Khas Arya except one Magar).
http://admin.myrepublica.com/opinion/story/34734/what-s-different.html

So, some Paschmi Brahmins like Pandey, and Panta were pretty active during the unification of Nepal.

RougeS
07-20-2018, 05:40 AM
I also think gotra and Y-dna is not co-related in general but it may co-relate amongst Bahun only, if Bahuns took gotra systematically. But I want to find out the relation between surname and Y-dna. I am Rimal and we have elaborate banshawali. Remember bahuns have great tradition of writing banshawali. Like the Newars who have their own Gopal Bhansawali, we Bahuns also have a tradition of writing "Bhasha Banshawali". We even wrote Bhasa bansawali for prominent Newar people and kings. There are Bhasha Bansawali dating back to hundreds of years ago in Madan Puraskar Pustakalaya.

According to Rimal banshawali, Rimal and Regmi both descend from the same paternal ancestor. Rimal and Regmi also have the same Kaushik gotra. You can get some more detail on Rimal society website (rimalsociety.com.np). According to Gedmatch, one guy with surname Rimal has tested to J2 Ydna. I wonder if all Rimals are J2. My own family is supposed to have migrated from Nuwakot to Kathmandu. But we have no relatives in Kathmandu except a couple of family, and we have lost connection to anyone in Nuwakot. So, I want to check if all surnames have only one haplogroup. Usually only those who go to USA have their DNA tested and they generally also have their relatives tested. So, it is not a surprise to see co-relation between surname and Y-dna haplogroup in 23andme. However, say two Rimals from disparate places such as Nuwakot and Accham (both have large population of Rimals) have the same haplogroup and also if the Regmis have the same haplogroup then we can conclude that the banshawali is somewhat correct. There are also other multiple surnames who are supposed to have descended from the same ancestor.

BTW I was reading some old threads here and I have found that Bahuns here don't have a clue about Kumain and Upadhyaya distinction and people are correlating it with geography lol (like purbe and paschime). They should probably talk to knowledgeable elders because they are confused out of their minds lol
Lucky you I’ve tried soo hard to see if there’s some banshawali in some FB page or websites but apart from a limited one I’ve found none for my surname.And we too are cutoff from the community and don’t know anything since my great grandfather migrated from Sindhupalchowk to Ktm.Since our ancestors lived in neighboring districts maybe I’m distantly related to you Lol .My mother’s side are spread across Ktm valley and neighboring Kavre and I’m quite interested to know when these Brahmins group came recently cause most are very large community with lots of dajuvais and conduct dewali.I had read somewhere that Regmis had large community in gorkha and they helped and supported shahs against local Magar kings.I know nothing about Rimals tho they must have migrated somewhere near gorkha before venturing Nuwakot and further east in any case you know better Lol.Mine lived in kaski b4 migrating in S-palckowk some settled in Nuwakot they say while others went further east.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 05:56 AM
Lucky you I’ve tried soo hard to see if there’s some banshawali in some FB page or websites but apart from a limited one I’ve found none for my surname.And we too are cutoff from the community and don’t know anything since my great grandfather migrated from Sindhupalchowk to Ktm.Since our ancestors lived in neighboring districts maybe I’m distantly related to you Lol .My mother’s side are spread across Ktm valley and neighboring Kavre and I’m quite interested to know when these Brahmins group came recently cause most are very large community with lots of dajuvais and conduct dewali.I had read somewhere that Regmis had large community in gorkha and they helped and supported shahs against local Magar kings.I know nothing about Rimals tho they must have migrated somewhere near gorkha before venturing Nuwakot and further east in any case you know better Lol.Mine lived in kaski b4 migrating in S-palckowk some settled in Nuwakot they say while others went further east.

Mine is from Far East (Taplejung). No Dewali in our family, though. We just stopped doing it completely, idk why. I’ve seen some Chhetris do it, but most Brahmins have now stopped doing it. Is there a tradition of keeping Masto among Brahmins as well ?

RougeS
07-20-2018, 05:56 AM
Parajulis are purbeys as well. Koiralas most likely migrated from Koiralakot, which is in Far Western Nepal (Doti). Same goes for other surnames like Khatiwada. I've relatives with surname Koirala and they're Upadhyas as well. I think Joshis/Jaisis were hired as astrologers, right ?

Start with the country's unification in 1768. In contrast to its portrayal as a multi-national state by Prithvi Narayan Shah, unifier of modern Nepal, the nobility of pre-unification Gorkha palace continued to rule the roost in the new unified territories comprised of the old chiefdoms of Khasan, Magarat, Newa, Khambuwan, Limbuwan, Tirahut, Simranghad, etc. This nobility came from chhatharghar (Pandey, Panta, Aryal, Rana, Bohara, and Khanal, all Khas Arya except one Magar).


So, some Paschmi Brahmins like Pandey, and Panta were pretty active during the unification of Nepal.

Well might be I’ve koirala relatives too.There’re lots of contradictions everywhere lmao.Panday surname is quite confusing cause there were Pande chiefs who are thakuri and they are some time spelled Pandey.Regardless it was quite uncommon for Brahmins to be nobility so they are rare group.Btw my Maiju & my maternal grandfather’s mother(his mamaghar)both share surname with you.(Yeah I know your surname) xD .

poi
07-20-2018, 05:56 AM
Lucky you I’ve tried soo hard to see if there’s some banshawali in some FB page or websites but apart from a limited one I’ve found none for my surname.And we too are cutoff from the community and don’t know anything since my great grandfather migrated from Sindhupalchowk to Ktm.Since our ancestors lived in neighboring districts maybe I’m distantly related to you Lol .My mother’s side are spread across Ktm valley and neighboring Kavre and I’m quite interested to know when these Brahmins group came recently cause most are very large community with lots of dajuvais and conduct dewali.I had read somewhere that Regmis had large community in gorkha and they helped and supported shahs against local Magar kings.I know nothing about Rimals tho they must have migrated somewhere near gorkha before venturing Nuwakot and further east in any case you know better Lol.Mine lived in kaski b4 migrating in S-palckowk some settled in Nuwakot they say while others went further east.

Dude, pick any 2 nepali bahuns and they're related within 5 generations lol. Nothing distant about us bro... it is crazy. My father in law(from the opposite end of Nepal, a Purbe bahun) is my ... genetic 4th cousin! yikes! Anyway, back to the topic. Regmis are also further west from Gorkha into Parbat and beyond.

RougeS
07-20-2018, 06:03 AM
Mine is from Far East (Taplejung). No Dewali in our family, though. We just stopped doing it completely, idk why. I’ve seen some Chhetris do it, but most Brahmins have now stopped doing it. Is there a tradition of keeping Masto among Brahmins as well ?

I have no idea.Dewali/kul puja is strictly patriarchal and since I’m disconnected from dajuvais i don’t know.We aren’t allowed to see kul puja or dewali of even our mamaghar and not even daughters are allowed to see kulpujas after they get
married.Its done in a designated site with stone deity.Animal sacrifice aren’t conducted in most dewalis these days.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 06:10 AM
Thanks. So, to say it back to you:
1. Geographically, there are 2 types of Khas bahuns: a) Purbe (Eastern) and b) Paschime (Western). Both can be upadhyayas.
2. Chronologically, there are 2 types of Khas bahuns: a) Upadhyaya (Older migrants) and b) Kumai (newer migrants). Upadhyayas usually have Khas village/occupational surnames, while Kumais have surnames identical to Gangetic plains Brahmins.
3. Status-wise, there are 2 types of bahuns: a) Jaise and b) non-Jaise. Jaises, at some point in their history, followed taboo practices, so their entire clan got downgraded. Also, Purbes looked down on Kumais lol. My wife(purbe) grandmother is pretty open about this -- I have heard her say "kumai ko ghumai"('kumais are deceivers') lol.

I knew of #1 and #3 but not #2. I knew surnames were the way to determine Kumai vs Purbe, but not Kumai vs Uphadhaya. Basically, the prior-migrated Khas bahuns took the village names of their new homes and looked down on newer-arrival Khas bahuns that were basically stuck with their Gangetic plains surnames? LMAO!

If what you say is correct, which I still have doubts, btw, no offence, but since my side of the family has entirely Gangetic-plains surnames and not the village-name surnames, that is the only reason why I'm Kumai. Not because my family originated from western Nepal just 50 years ago.

People are confused about Kumai and Upadhyaya and they are bringing geographical distinction like Purbe and Paschime because in the last 100 years these distinction disappeared. By your logic Kumains should only be from the west but that is not true. Rimals for example originate from Achham and there is a large population of Rimal theres. Rimals are also in Nuwakot(Phirkep) and they are spread all over eastern Nepal too. In fact if you take any random surname you will see that they are spread all over Nepal. By you logic Rimals should be both Kumain and Purbe (your distinction) at the same time but that is wrong.

The sure shot way to distinguish between Kumain and Upadhayaya is to look at surname. Surnames like Uprety, Mishra, Tripathi, Dixit, Bhattarai, Panthi, Tiwari etc are sure Kumain for sure.

Changing topic it would be interesting to see genetics of Pawai Khas. These people are supposed to be isolated, unmixed Khas from Karnali. I wonder what their admixture would turn out to be.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 06:14 AM
I have no idea.Dewali/kul puja is strictly patriarchal and since I’m disconnected from dajuvais i don’t know.We aren’t allowed to see kul puja or dewali of even our mamaghar and not even daughters are allowed to see kulpujas after they get
married.Its done in a designated site with stone deity.Animal sacrifice aren’t conducted in most dewalis these days.

Masto worshippers do the Boka Tokni ceremony. They bite and drink raw blood from the neck of Boka after the head have been lopped off. Chettris still do it. I think many Bahuns got repulsed by that, and change to cooking Kheer and bashing Naribal only lol

poi
07-20-2018, 06:19 AM
I have no idea.Dewali/kul puja is strictly patriarchal and since I’m disconnected from dajuvais i don’t know.We aren’t allowed to see kul puja or dewali of even our mamaghar and not even daughters are allowed to see kulpujas after they get
married.Its done in a designated site with stone deity.Animal sacrifice aren’t conducted in most dewalis these days.

I've never heard of the term "dewali" in the context of kul puja. We just call it kul puja and I remember all of those things... only males involved and we even had animal slaughter. Our kul deuta is on top of this mountain and here is a video(somebody else took obviously). Our last kul puja was almost 20 years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCuuN0MufuA&t=119s

pnb123
07-20-2018, 06:24 AM
I've never heard of the term "dewali" in the context of kul puja. We just call it kul puja and I remember all of those things... only males involved and we even had animal slaughter. Our kul deuta is on top of the mountain and here is a video(somebody else took obviously). Our last kul puja was almost 20 years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCuuN0MufuA&t=119s

Do you know if Bahuns also do Masto puja? I know couple of Upadhyay Bahuns that are Shaman/Jhankri as well.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 06:32 AM
Bahuns especially of Western part of Nepal do Masto puja. For example Acharyas of Kalikot do Masto puja. They also do the Boka tokni and stuff that goes with masto puja.

By the way do you have any Pawai Khas genetic sample? My guess is that these there are isolated Khas people that didn't mix with the Tibeto Burmans and didn't mix with the plain migrants. My hunch is that they will show ASI in Harappa in Lower 20's, like people from Afghanistan.

poi
07-20-2018, 06:33 AM
Do you know if Bahuns also do Masto puja? I know couple of Upadhyay Bahuns that are Shaman/Jhankri as well.

Masto does not sound like something bahuns did on their own. Never heard of it before reading this online.

RougeS
07-20-2018, 06:33 AM
Masto worshippers do the Boka Tokni ceremony. They bite and drink raw blood from the neck of Boka after the head have been lopped off. Chettris still do it. I think many Bahuns got repulsed by that, and change to cooking Kheer and bashing Naribal only lol
There is an unrelated ceremony called katto khane when Kings die untimely by murder its horrific ceremony and is to be done by a vegetarian bahun.It was done last time during 2001 royal massacre.Brahmin who takes part is expelled from Nepal “desh Nikala”and rides elephant to the bounds of Ktm valley.

@poi well they call it dewali or in better Nepali tone dyali.Lol it was considered sin to see kul Devtas of people who’re not of your kul/clan.

Back to topic, I’m interested to know who were proto Khas tribe or are we really Khas?In my mind they look like Ladakhis Lol.Since,we inherited some of their mleccha like masto & shamanic culture we must have Khas ancestry.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 06:38 AM
The Bahun who apparently ate Katto came out and said that the ceremony is symbolical only and that they do not eat flesh of the King lol There seems to be lot of myths surrounding it and very little fact.

poi
07-20-2018, 06:43 AM
There is an unrelated ceremony called katto khane when Kings die untimely by murder its horrific ceremony and is to be done by a vegetarian bahun.It was done last time during 2001 royal massacre.Brahmin who takes part is expelled from Nepal “desh Nikala”and rides elephant to the bounds of Ktm valley.

@poi well they call it dewali or in better Nepali tone dyali.Lol it was considered sin to see kul Devtas of people who’re not of your kul/clan.

Back to topic, I’m interested to know who were proto Khas or are we really Khas?In my mind they look like Ladakhis Lol.

Nepali bahuns, despite our relative obscurity, are actually pretty damn well covered by modern(2010+) genetic studies, including a huge study from 2017 and one from 2018. We are similar(dare I say identical) to Gangetic Plains brahmins in terms of the pseudo-AASI+IVCp+Steppe mix. Obviously, we have lower actual AASI and much higher ATB, since another study from 2017 gave us (now outdated) "ANI" of 93% and 7% ATB(not outdated to my knowledge). Clearly, ATB was acquired after the bahuns migrated into the hills. Setting aside the academic results, looking at Bahuns and Chettris' Gedmatch scores across ALL calculators, the differences are clear:

Bahuns have same East Asian across the board, while Chettris vary quite a bit in their East Asian. I have a post about this here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14682-Gedmatch-automated-PCA-for-South-Central-Asian-members&p=434392&viewfull=1#post434392). In this PCA, bahuns vary on their West Eurasian, but that's mostly my dad scoring much higher North Atlantic for whatever reason(he was tested using 23andme v5, so that is probably it):
https://i.imgur.com/z6zyD4Pr.png

khanabadoshi
07-20-2018, 06:56 AM
Dudes... this conversation is like the most complicated thing I've ever read on AG. I need PowerPoint.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 07:02 AM
Nepali bahuns, despite our relative obscurity, are actually pretty damn well covered by modern(2010+) genetic studies, including a huge study from 2017 and one from 2018. We are similar(dare I say identical) to Gangetic Plains brahmins in terms of the pseudo-AASI+IVCp+Steppe mix. Obviously, we have lower actual AASI and much higher ATB, since another study from 2017 gave us (now outdated) "ANI" of 93% and 7% ATB(not outdated to my knowledge). Clearly, ATB was acquired after the bahuns migrated into the hills. Setting aside the academic results, looking at Bahuns and Chettris' Gedmatch scores across ALL calculators, the differences are clear:

Bahuns have same East Asian across the board, while Chettris vary quite a bit in their East Asian. I have a post about this here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14682-Gedmatch-automated-PCA-for-South-Central-Asian-members&p=434392&viewfull=1#post434392). In this PCA, bahuns vary on their West Eurasian, but that's mostly my dad scoring much higher North Atlantic for whatever reason(he was tested using 23andme v5, so that is probably it):
https://i.imgur.com/z6zyD4Pr.png

If they only included NE Euro + Med + Caucasian in Steppe, I think we would be much higher, but looks like some Iranian Neolithic type admixture seeped into their Steppe admixture. And AASI elements seeped into their Iranian Neolithic admixture. And they completely messed it up by mixing ATB and AASI.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 07:16 AM
Lol. What would other Brahmin think after watching this?

https://youtu.be/AVNQUXUjwYg

poi
07-20-2018, 07:24 AM
Lol. What would other Brahmin think after watching this?

https://youtu.be/AVNQUXUjwYg

I think it's pretty cool. Like any profession ya gotta do what you need to put food on the table. I heard shamanism is where all the rage is. You should check this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeAp1fPt8Eg

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 07:27 AM
Lol. What would other Brahmin think after watching this?

https://youtu.be/AVNQUXUjwYg

Cringe.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 07:34 AM
I tell you these days, you’re probably going to find Brahmins doing Bhajans, rather than involving in Shamanism and Doing dyali.


https://youtu.be/JeUKniCsO4I

RougeS
07-20-2018, 07:35 AM
Among Bahuns It’s mostly astrologists who are involved in such ceremonies.Dixit family I had mentioned earlier gave exact time (muhurat) to conduct massacre of Ranodip Singh & Jang Bahadur’s children to Shumsher Ranas.They conducted some ceremony b4 for that.There are some occurrences when people suffer from chauda(spirit of babies) lageko or bir lageko.Its mostly Newar/ magar who conduct such shamanic ceremonies to free people from the bad spirits.It feels so unreal how supposedly bad spirit drive people crazy.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 08:16 AM
There is an unrelated ceremony called katto khane when Kings die untimely by murder its horrific ceremony and is to be done by a vegetarian bahun.It was done last time during 2001 royal massacre.Brahmin who takes part is expelled from Nepal “desh Nikala”and rides elephant to the bounds of Ktm valley.

@poi well they call it dewali or in better Nepali tone dyali.Lol it was considered sin to see kul Devtas of people who’re not of your kul/clan.

Back to topic, I’m interested to know who were proto Khas tribe or are we really Khas?In my mind they look like Ladakhis Lol.Since,we inherited some of their mleccha like masto & shamanic culture we must have Khas ancestry.

I think we do have some Khas ancestry. Maybe elevated NE Euro is indication of that. Khas were supposed to be cousins of Vedic Aryans who entered India. So, Khas might’ve migrated to Himalayas and intermingled with AASI people living there. It’s also possible that AASI people living in Himalayas looked different from AASI of the plains. They inherited some more E Asian admixture as they ventured into Nepal. I’m not sure if brahmins migrated from plains, maybe some did. Until we get some proper documentation, I cannot agree on anything. I obviously cannot trace my ancestry anywhere beyond Western Nepal.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 09:02 AM
I think we do have some Khas ancestry. Maybe elevated NE Euro is indication of that. Khas were supposed to be cousins of Vedic Aryans who entered India. So, Khas might’ve migrated to Himalayas and intermingled with AASI people living there. It’s also possible that AASI people living in Himalayas looked different from AASI of the plains. They inherited some more E Asian admixture as they ventured into Nepal. I’m not sure if brahmins migrated from plains, maybe some did. Until we get some proper documentation, I cannot agree on anything. I obviously cannot trace my ancestry anywhere beyond Western Nepal.

We know that there are some pure lineages of Khas in Karnali. These Pabai/Matawali khas (Alcohol drinking khas) haven't been hinduized by the Bahuns. The proto Khas were shamanic masto worshippers with the Kings being Buddhist before being converted to Hindu in the influence of Bahuns. It was probably Jitari Malla (Ruler of Khas empire) who did this. Remember that Dor Bahadur Bista was related to Pabai Khas, which is why he went on rant (even writing a book on this) on the evil Bahuns who corrupted the pure hearted Shamanic/Buddhist Khas people into regressive Hindu religion. He was influenced by some Christian Khaire and applied protestant Christian reasoning to Nepali context. Dor Bahadur Bista was also accused of being Christian for this reason. He was the first "We wuz Iranic, non-Vedic Khas and shiet guy". There are still many Dor Bahadur Bista follower Khas (Chettri) in Nepal who want separate status than the Bahuns in the constitution because they believe that Khas are some non-Vedic iranic tribe or something and Bahuns are evil Hindu refugees from the plain who migrated after the Muslim invasion in India.

purohit
07-20-2018, 10:07 AM
I tell you these days, you’re probably going to find Brahmins doing Bhajans, rather than involving in Shamanism and Doing dyali.


https://youtu.be/JeUKniCsO4I

All of them brahMins??

parasar
07-20-2018, 02:06 PM
...Ones that travelled with Malla dynasty to Kathmandu(Nepal valley) and now assimilated with Newars are the earliest Maithili/Tirhut Brahmin inhabitant...

My thinking is that the Newars were fellow travelers of these brahmans from Simraongarh.

Edit: To clarify, the present day Newars are mix of the Nanyadeva period Newars and local TB populations.

poi
07-20-2018, 02:24 PM
Well most of these parts were malarial forests unfit for inhabitation with thick” char kose jhadis” and wild animals until some large DDT measures to eradicate malaria that occurred during the 1960s.Ones that travelled with Malla dynasty to Kathmandu(Nepal valley) and now assimilated with Newars are the earliest Maithili/Tirhut Brahmin inhabitant.
Today there are Maithili Brahmins like Jha,Mishra,Trivedi(?) etc in Terai.Theyre kept in seperate Terai Brahmins category in census and aren’t included in the Brahmins category.

Even with those lists I’m not sure which ones are Kumai cuz in some sort of tribalism Brahmins call their neighboring group of Brahmins as jaisis and below them for no apparent reason.I saw Bhattarai in one of the kumai list but it’s not right I’ve Bhattarai relatives.Only kumais I know for sure are the Joshis who are wholly called Jaisis by some and maybe Parajuli.I don’t think Dixits are kumai as Dixit family were priests for Ranas and no way would Ranas hire Brahmins who are considered inferior for doing their rituals and astrology.Koiralas are one of the recent if not the most recent Hill Brahmins who migrated from India they were apparently Kshatriyas who escaped some Muslim conquest to their lands,even my Koirala friend confirmed it when several years ago back in our school a teacher was saying so.They lived in around Koiralo tree (it’s flowers are used to make fresh pickles) in eastern Nepal and got that name.They should be in that kumai list too if it’s based on relatively recent immigration but they aren’t.I think all these divisions are vague & misleading.

That can't be true lol. Lots of made up stories in our family legends. No way there is record of such legends. No way Humla, from where Koiralas came from 200 to 300 years ago, would be somehow remembered like that. Also, parajulis are not Kumai.

poi
07-20-2018, 02:54 PM
Only kumais I know for sure are the Joshis who are wholly called Jaisis by some and maybe Parajuli.I don’t think Dixits are kumai as Dixit family were priests for Ranas and no way would Ranas hire Brahmins who are considered inferior for doing their rituals and astrology.

Dixit are obviously Kumai, so this theory that Kumai aren't Upadhyaya is wrong IMO. Also, Privthvi Narayan Shah's guru was a another Kumai, a Panta. I don't think Upadhyaya and Kumai are mutually exclusive. Also, "Joshi" is a generic surname... it does not reveal anything, like Kumai or Purbe or Jaise, except their brahminicity lol

RougeS
07-20-2018, 02:58 PM
My thinking is that the Newars were fellow travelers of these brahmans from Simraongarh.
Well earliest inhabitants were Gopalas(Yadavas)people who as per lengends came with Krishna in dwapar yug.They were 1st rulers of Nepal valley followed by Mahispalas or ahirs who were similar to Gopalas.Then came kiratas from east who were followed by licchavis from vaishali followed by Mallas.They are still newari people with Gopali surname who claim to be descendants of Gopalas.Newars didn’t come with Mallas more like part of their ancestry.


That can't be true lol. Lots of made up stories in our family legends. No way there is record of such legends. No way Humla, from where Koiralas came from 200 to 300 years ago, would be somehow remembered like that. Also, parajulis are not Kumai.
Lol that’s what I’ve heard.As Ive said in same post all these divisions seems vague.

poi
07-20-2018, 03:01 PM
All of them brahMins??

That video is of a bhajan, so it is hard to tell exact caste as bhajans attract various hindu castes. As far as I know, there are only 2 ways to tell a Nepali brahmin -- a surname and/or phenotype.

There are Khas brahmin specific surnames that betray their origins (there is some overlap with Chettris, but we can check the middle name to distinguish Chettris from Bahuns).

And phenotypically, Khas brahmins, among hill peoples, are the only people that have the least TB looks. In that video, going by my very scientific phenotype analysis, there are a number of bahuns and a couple of newars as well.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 03:10 PM
Newars obviously have existed before Mallas came to Nepal but when Nanyadeva and his cohort came to Kathmandu and when Jayasthithi Malla re formulated the caste system, they put the already existing Brahmins and Kshatriyas from the Licchavi period to lower status (mostly Vaishya) because apparently the older stock of inhabitants despite being Hindu had already mixed with Tibeto Burman Stock. However there have been other later migration to Kathmandu Valley from India. In fact many Bahuns became the Rajpurohits of Malla along with the Maithil Brahmins and took on the Rajopadhyaya title. Also Newari Chhathariya for instance who usually have Shrestha as their surname and based on Hada banshawali trace their lineage to Rajasthani Chauhan Rajputs.

parasar
07-20-2018, 03:26 PM
Well earliest inhabitants were Gopalas(Yadavas)people who as per lengends came with Krishna in dwapar yug.They were 1st rulers of Nepal valley followed by Mahispalas or ahirs who were similar to Gopalas.Then came kiratas from east who were followed by licchavis from vaishali followed by Mallas.They are still newari people with Gopali surname who claim to be descendants of Gopalas.Newars didn’t come with Mallas more like part of their ancestry.

...

The theory is that they were soldiers from the Karnat region that came in during the Chalook occupation, and they stayed back with Nanyadeva and his group.
The Karnats were ruling most of Maharashtra. In fact Xuanzang mentions the Chalook Pulakesin as the ruler of three Maharashtras. The later Chalooks were present in Maharashtra as well as Andhra. I recall doing an analysis of the later Malls and their relationship to the Karnats (will try to find my notes).

What we know as the Mithila 'culture' comes down to us from this period of Karnat rule in Tirhut.

As far as Y lines go "Newar and Kathmandu exhibit considerable similarities to the Indian Y-haplogroup distribution, particularly in their haplogroup R and H composition."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852741/bin/AJHGv80p884fg2.jpg

pnb123
07-20-2018, 04:07 PM
All of them brahMins??

Don’t know for sure. But the ones that show least E Asian probably are, but I don’t know for sure. There are some Chhetris there definitely. Few of them could be of other castes as well.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 04:11 PM
Don’t know for sure. But the ones that show least E Asian probably are, but I don’t know for sure. There are some Chhetris there definitely. Few of them could be of other castes as well.

There is a Dahal guy in gedmatch with 46% East Asian.

poi
07-20-2018, 04:58 PM
The theory is that they were soldiers from the Karnat region that came in during the Chalook occupation, and they stayed back with Nanyadeva and his group.
The Karnats were ruling most of Maharashtra. In fact Xuanzang mentions the Chalook Pulakesin as the ruler of three Maharashtras. The later Chalooks were present in Maharashtra as well as Andhra. I recall doing an analysis of the later Malls and their relationship to the Karnats (will try to find my notes).

What we know as the Mithila 'culture' comes down to us from this period of Karnat rule in Tirhut.

As far as Y lines go "Newar and Kathmandu exhibit considerable similarities to the Indian Y-haplogroup distribution, particularly in their haplogroup R and H composition."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852741/bin/AJHGv80p884fg2.jpg

Hey Parasar, do you know the explanation for Newar's R1b? R1b is absent across other ethnicities, but Newars seem to have it.

Also, do you happen to know the "kathmandu" samples' caste/ethnic breakdown? Considering high ~20% yDna O, along with ~35% R, I think it is a mix of castes rather than a single caste.

pnb123
07-20-2018, 04:59 PM
There is a Dahal guy in gedmatch with 46% East Asian.

He could be Chhetri + Magar/Rai. Chhetris usually are around 20% E Asian. I’ve seen a lot of intermarriages happening these days, which results in people losing their caste, and stuffs. Especially when a boy marries girl from lower caste.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 05:12 PM
Hey Parasar, do you know the explanation for Newar's R1b? R1b is absent across other ethnicities, but Newars seem to have it.

Also, do you happen to know the "kathmandu" samples' caste/ethnic breakdown? Considering high ~20% yDna O, along with ~35% R, I think it is a mix of castes rather than a single caste.

R1b may be came from the jesuits who had been in Kathmandu since 1700's before Prithvi Naryan Shah kicked them out. Or may be there is some schythian connection with the Newar especially Shakyas.

parasar
07-20-2018, 05:20 PM
Hey Parasar, do you know the explanation for Newar's R1b? R1b is absent across other ethnicities, but Newars seem to have it.

Also, do you happen to know the "kathmandu" samples' caste/ethnic breakdown? Considering high ~20% yDna O, along with ~35% R, I think it is a mix of castes rather than a single caste.

My thinking was that some eastern/Yamna type of M269 that got isolated and increased by drift.
We have Bhutanese R1b lines too - one a very early split and one after M269, bhu-0984 - R1b, bhu-1953 - R1b M269
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309911879_Supplementary_Data/data/582632ca08ae254c5080e5b5/supp-msu327-Hallast-TablesS1-3-5-11Revised281014.xls

And now we have a circa 2600bc R1b M269 from Darra-i-Kur Cave.

Kathmandu looks to be a regular urban sampling.

RougeS
07-20-2018, 05:24 PM
The theory is that they were soldiers from the Karnat region that came in during the Chalook occupation, and they stayed back with Nanyadeva and his group.
The Karnats were ruling most of Maharashtra. In fact Xuanzang mentions the Chalook Pulakesin as the ruler of three Maharashtras. The later Chalooks were present in Maharashtra as well as Andhra. I recall doing an analysis of the later Malls and their relationship to the Karnats (will try to find my notes).

What we know as the Mithila 'culture' comes down to us from this period of Karnat rule in Tirhut.

As far as Y lines go "Newar and Kathmandu exhibit considerable similarities to the Indian Y-haplogroup distribution, particularly in their haplogroup R and H composition."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852741/bin/AJHGv80p884fg2.jpg

Newar’s TB admixture probably stems from Kiratas,who ruled for really long time.Newars were very involved in trade with Tibet and travelled there often and I think it’s other source of their Tibetan ancestry.Im not sure about ancestry from plains tho the last one to invade were Mallas so probably their Karnataka ancestry have more contributions.
Isn’t Mithila culture more ancient tho? I can’t remember their names well but there were no cultured and educated rishis / philosophers in the court of Videha long before those Karnatak banshis.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 05:30 PM
Newar’s TB admixture probably stems from Kiratas,who ruled for really long time.Newars were very involved in trade with Tibet and travelled there often and I think it’s other source of their Tibetan ancestry.

I have my doubts about the ancient Kiratas mentioned in Mahabharata, Manusmriti and Gopal banshawali being the same as modern day Kiratas in Eastern Nepal. If it were so, modern day Kiratas would show similar admixture to Newars but I don't think that is the case. In fact the Kiratas of Nepal has no written history and the current day history about Dasti, Yalambar and stuff seems to have been manufactured by falgunananda, Iman Singh Chemjong and co, when they got access to Newari Banshawali which mentions these kings. In fact I think the present day Kiratas are later migrants who came through Burma into eastern Nepal very late in history compared to the time ancient Kiratas are supposed to have existed.

poi
07-20-2018, 05:38 PM
I have my doubts about the ancient Kiratas mentioned in Mahabharata, Manusmriti and Gopal banshawali being the same as modern day Kiratas in Eastern Nepal. If it were so, modern day Kiratas would show similar admixture to Newars but I don't think that is the case. In fact the Kiratas of Nepal has no written history and the current day history about Dasti, Yalambar and stuff seems to have been manufactured by falgunananda, Iman Singh Chemjong and co, when they got access to Newari Banshawali which mentions these kings. In fact I think the present day Kiratas are later migrants who came through Burma into eastern Nepal very late in history compared to the time ancient Kiratas are supposed to have existed.

Keep in mind that there is ancient DNA from 1000 BCE Nepal (Chokhopani) and they were NE Asian genetically with the NE-Asian yDNA O subclade. So, it is not implausible that East Asian Kiratas were involved way back in the early Iron Age. But I agree to your point that a lot of history is manufactured in the 1800s and well into the 20th century. The folk historians like Dhor Bahadur and Iman Singh, with their crazy claims, need to be ignored completely.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 05:43 PM
Keep in mind that there is ancient DNA from 1000 BCE Nepal (Chokhopani) and they were NE Asian genetically with the NE-Asian yDNA O subclade. So, it is not implausible that East Asian Kiratas were involved way back in the early Iron Age. But I agree to your point that a lot of history is manufactured in the 1800s and well into the 20th century. The folk historians like Dhor Bahadur and Iman Singh, with their crazy claims, need to be ignored completely.

poi is Dilip Rai confirmed.

poi
07-20-2018, 05:48 PM
poi is Dilip Rai confirmed.

It gets muddy when you mix (ethnic/racial) politics with genetics and actual population history. Clearly there are Kirati nationalists that hate "Aryans", so it is best to ignore them altogether. There is no value thinking or arguing about their points. Still, the Kiratis did appear to be East Asians and East Asians were present in Nepal as early as 1000 BCE. Whether or not those early Iron Age East Asians were Kirati is a different matter. May be they were not. But history does indicate that they were.

YajmirMiryaj
07-20-2018, 05:50 PM
Newari documents themselves lists the name of Kings who ruled Kathmandu before the Licchavis and the names are of East Asian origin. The name Yalambar, Jitedasti etc are from these documents actually. So I don't think it is far fetched to claim that an East Asian tribe ruled Kathmandu early in its history. But I have doubts about their connection to modern day Kiratas.

RougeS
07-20-2018, 05:56 PM
I have my doubts about the ancient Kiratas mentioned in Mahabharata, Manusmriti and Gopal banshawali being the same as modern day Kiratas in Eastern Nepal. If it were so, modern day Kiratas would show similar admixture to Newars but I don't think that is the case. In fact the Kiratas of Nepal has no written history and the current day history about Dasti, Yalambar and stuff seems to have been manufactured by falgunananda, Iman Singh Chemjong and co, when they got access to Newari Banshawali which mentions these kings. In fact I think the present day Kiratas are later migrants who came through Burma into eastern Nepal very late in history compared to the time ancient Kiratas are supposed to have existed.

Kathmandu was the capital of kiratas not the sole area they lived.Their empire at their peak stretched from Trishuli river in the west to Kamrup of Assam in the east.Newars are very admixed group.Kiratas chieftain might have been killed but local kiratas mixed with Gopalas of the valley and got ruled by icchhavis who themselves ruled for a longgg time.Then came mallas with more plain people.With some mingling with Tibet people thanks to trade & possible migrations during Buddhist exchanges(Mallas and licchavis both acted as patron of Buddhism).Bouddha and Swaymbhu of the valley were very similar to Vatican largely ruling independently with lots of Tibetan people.Newars don’t have shamanic culture like kiratas who have preserved it and worship Kirateshwar.I mean kiratas are buried in pashupati forest unlike newar who go by cremation.

poi
07-20-2018, 05:57 PM
Newari documents themselves lists the name of Kings who ruled Kathmandu before the Licchavis and the names are of East Asian origin. So I don't think it is far fetched to claim that an East Asian tribe ruled Kathmandu early in its history. But I have doubts about their connection to modern day Kiratas.

Yup, the connection seems a little shoddy. Not implausible, but a bit far fetched. There is recent migration of Tibetans into Nepal given the trade links with the Newars. Kiratas, being an IronAge population, were likely East Asian. Whether or not they led to modern Rais and Limbus requires actual scientific research. I do not know if there is any interest in that research, as most Nepali genetic research is focused on either Sherpas or Brahmins lol. I am not complaining but hoping there will be unbiased research to figure Kirati origins.

parasar
07-21-2018, 01:19 AM
Newar’s TB admixture probably stems from Kiratas,who ruled for really long time.Newars were very involved in trade with Tibet and travelled there often and I think it’s other source of their Tibetan ancestry.Im not sure about ancestry from plains tho the last one to invade were Mallas so probably their Karnataka ancestry have more contributions.
Isn’t Mithila culture more ancient tho? I can’t remember their names well but there were no cultured and educated rishis / philosophers in the court of Videha long before those Karnatak banshis.

True Mithila is far more ancient. But the area went through transitions.
After the Gupts there is a clear decline. In fact I believe that the move south was part of the decline. Maybe the Karnat records are lying or more kindly, embellishing, when they claim Raghubans or Chandrbans from the Ayodhya to Magadh area, but it is also possible they are correct.
See eg.
Karnat Chalooks: https://books.google.com/books?id=cc9qCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT186
Karnat Guttas: https://books.google.com/books?id=SBG2AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA398 "chieftains of the name of Guttas (Guptas) of Guttal in the Dharwar district ... we have Patali in the title, showing that Pataliputra, the original capital, had not been forgotten by the Southern Guptas"

purohit
07-21-2018, 06:44 AM
What is the genetics of newars

bmoney
07-21-2018, 10:55 AM
We know that there are some pure lineages of Khas in Karnali. These Pabai/Matawali khas (Alcohol drinking khas) haven't been hinduized by the Bahuns. The proto Khas were shamanic masto worshippers with the Kings being Buddhist before being converted to Hindu in the influence of Bahuns. It was probably Jitari Malla (Ruler of Khas empire) who did this. Remember that Dor Bahadur Bista was related to Pabai Khas, which is why he went on rant (even writing a book on this) on the evil Bahuns who corrupted the pure hearted Shamanic/Buddhist Khas people into regressive Hindu religion. He was influenced by some Christian Khaire and applied protestant Christian reasoning to Nepali context. Dor Bahadur Bista was also accused of being Christian for this reason. He was the first "We wuz Iranic, non-Vedic Khas and shiet guy". There are still many Dor Bahadur Bista follower Khas (Chettri) in Nepal who want separate status than the Bahuns in the constitution because they believe that Khas are some non-Vedic iranic tribe or something and Bahuns are evil Hindu refugees from the plain who migrated after the Muslim invasion in India.

Interesting

Sapporo
07-21-2018, 11:44 AM
@prashant

I was trying to determine whether some Jatt Sikh gotras/clans are exclusive to Punjab. Can you help me out and let me know whether Johal, Aujla, Dosanjh, Phull, Sohal and Bains are found among Hindu Jatts of Haryana, Rajasthan and Western UP? I guess you can throw in Madyah Pradesh too since the Jatts there probably live near borders areas of Eastern Rajasthan and Western UP.

pnb123
07-21-2018, 04:41 PM
What is the genetics of newars

Although I don't have Newar match on gedmatch. I would think they would typically score more E Asian than us on average. They also have their own caste system, so I guess Newari brahmins would probably score low E Asian compared to other Newaris. They're mostly concentrated around Kathmandu area, and are considered to be followers of both Buddhism and Hinduism. Didn't get much exposure to their culture, as I'm not from Kathmandu. Their culture is kind of unique.

tipirneni
07-22-2018, 03:45 AM
True Mithila is far more ancient. But the area went through transitions.
After the Gupts there is a clear decline. In fact I believe that the move south was part of the decline. Maybe the Karnat records are lying or more kindly, embellishing, when they claim Raghubans or Chandrbans from the Ayodhya to Magadh area, but it is also possible they are correct.
See eg.
Karnat Chalooks: https://books.google.com/books?id=cc9qCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT186
Karnat Guttas: https://books.google.com/books?id=SBG2AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA398 "chieftains of the name of Guttas (Guptas) of Guttal in the Dharwar district ... we have Patali in the title, showing that Pataliputra, the original capital, had not been forgotten by the Southern Guptas"

Those links point to later period. The older southern links are from Nanda/Mauryan time which was right after Mithila migrations. Even now the gotras in South among Farmer & Soldiers caste speak of Mithila time migrations as Janakanulla or Ayothya etc .... There is also older Asura & Naga clans mentioned as from Satavahana & Ikshvaku time ones. These names changed to different gotras in early Medieval time. check out these....

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.536409/2015.536409.buddhist-remains_djvu.txt


The new inscriptions introduce to us a number of new clans like the
Pugiyas, the Dhatakas, the Sagara, the Chaliki, etc., the last two being
implicit in the names of some of the princes. The Ikshvaku must have
married into the local families. ChantiSri married
mahatalavara VasishUputra Skanda Sri of the Pukiya clan^ and their son
was Skanda Sagaram naga. Ptirushada^a’s sister married Skanda Visakha
naga of the Dhataka clan, the mahaMandandyaka of her brother. Another
princess is said to have married mahatalavara Skanda Chaliki Kammanaga
of the Hiranyanaga (Ham, Ceylon, naga ?) dynasty. Apart from the peculiar
significance of the name-ending naga, the words sagaram and Chaliki
seem to be of great import, as in all probability the Tamil Tiraiyar and the
later Chalukyas lie hidden in them.

prashantvaidwan
07-23-2018, 08:07 AM
@prashant

I was trying to determine whether some Jatt Sikh gotras/clans are exclusive to Punjab. Can you help me out and let me know whether Johal, Aujla, Dosanjh, Phull, Sohal and Bains are found among Hindu Jatts of Haryana, Rajasthan and Western UP? I guess you can throw in Madyah Pradesh too since the Jatts there probably live near borders areas of Eastern Rajasthan and Western UP.

I have heard of bains and ojla among hindu jatts...dusandh is here but not dosanjh..not sure both are the same ...never heard of johal , phull and sohal...

tipirneni
07-23-2018, 11:48 AM
I have heard of bains and ojla among hindu jatts...dusandh is here but not dosanjh..not sure both are the same ...never heard of johal , phull and sohal...

Even though names match the Jat Sikh have additional admixture events post 1700 if you look their profiles. Since Hindu Jats nmonte G25 coords is not available in each of their main area I can't say anything

jb24
07-23-2018, 01:44 PM
Even though names match the Jat Sikh have additional admixture events post 1700 if you look their profiles. Since Hindu Jats nmonte G25 coords is not available in each of their main area I can't say anything

May I ask how you were able to work out they have additional admixture events being post 1700? Where are their profiles?

tipirneni
07-23-2018, 11:07 PM
May I ask how you were able to work out they have additional admixture events being post 1700? Where are their profiles?

Hello JB sir,
Do you have any of the Steppe/Gujarat/Andhra/Kannad/Pashtun looking types? I believe these are added in Jat Sikh in later period. The nmonte reading I have from Sap bro is more straight forward Jat Sikh only. He doesnt have these info on newer variety nor he is willing to advertise.

https://i.imgur.com/rJp5DdV.png

prashantvaidwan
07-24-2018, 04:39 AM
Hello JB sir,
Do you have any of the Steppe/Gujarat/Andhra/Kannad/Pashtun looking types? I believe these are added in Jat Sikh in later period. The nmonte reading I have from Sap bro is more straight forward Jat Sikh only. He doesnt have these info on newer variety nor he is willing to advertise.

https://i.imgur.com/rJp5DdV.png
I fail to understand what you are trying to convey. What Kannad, Andhra look has to do with steppe, Jatt and pashtun look and what is only Jatt Sikh look?

pegasus
07-24-2018, 04:48 AM
Hello JB sir,
Do you have any of the Steppe/Gujarat/Andhra/Kannad/Pashtun looking types? I believe these are added in Jat Sikh in later period. The nmonte reading I have from Sap bro is more straight forward Jat Sikh only. He doesnt have these info on newer variety nor he is willing to advertise.

https://i.imgur.com/rJp5DdV.png

TP some of those pics are Himachalis from former member Kenji's collages on other anthro forums lmao. Also could you refrain from stringing random picture collages , it just detracts from any point your trying to make.

khanabadoshi
07-25-2018, 07:03 PM
Learned some things watching the election news in Pakistan. Snippets of information about what tribes/biradaris are where:

Khokar are based in rural Lahore. That is their base evidently. They are large enough there that the election is being contested Khokar v. Khokar. So it gives a sense of their numbers.
I saw a commentator that is a Grewal. Thought it might interest Saporro. https://twitter.com/aneelgrewal?lang=en
Someone listed a crap ton of tribes/biradaris in Muzaffargarh, I'll find that clip again and post it.

MonkeyDLuffy
07-26-2018, 12:53 AM
Learned some things watching the election news in Pakistan. Snippets of information about what tribes/biradaris are where:

Khokar are based in rural Lahore. That is their base evidently. They are large enough there that the election is being contested Khokar v. Khokar. So it gives a sense of their numbers.
I saw a commentator that is a Grewal. Thought it might interest Saporro. https://twitter.com/aneelgrewal?lang=en
Someone listed a crap ton of tribes/birdadaris in Muzaffargarh, I'll find that clip again and post it.

Looks very typical punjabi, would've thought he was another Punjabi student in Toronto lol. He actually resemble bmoney a little.

Quick question, khokhar are rajputs? I know two sikh khokhar here, 1 is rajput and 1 is tarkhan.

prashantvaidwan
07-26-2018, 06:09 AM
Looks very typical punjabi, would've thought he was another Punjabi student in Toronto lol. He actually resemble bmoney a little.

Quick question, khokhar are rajputs? I know two sikh khokhar here, 1 is rajput and 1 is tarkhan.

Probably an independent tribe in past. Now they are both jatts and rajputs in Pakistan. There are many villages of hindu jats of khokhar clan in West UP.

khanabadoshi
07-27-2018, 07:56 PM
Probably an independent tribe in past. Now they are both jatts and rajputs in Pakistan. There are many villages of hindu jats of khokhar clan in West UP.

Seems like in a lot of areas the people who couldn't be classified were just called Jatts:

https://i.gyazo.com/2b4c4b71582bb111d675f53ce41254ae.png

Jatt1
07-27-2018, 08:05 PM
Seems like in a lot of areas the people who couldn't be classified were just called Jatts:

https://i.gyazo.com/2b4c4b71582bb111d675f53ce41254ae.png

But all those groups can be differentiated through dna test.

bol_nat
07-27-2018, 09:52 PM
Learned some things watching the election news in Pakistan. Snippets of information about what tribes/biradaris are where:

Khokar are based in rural Lahore. That is their base evidently. They are large enough there that the election is being contested Khokar v. Khokar. So it gives a sense of their numbers.
I saw a commentator that is a Grewal. Thought it might interest Saporro. https://twitter.com/aneelgrewal?lang=en
Someone listed a crap ton of tribes/biradaris in Muzaffargarh, I'll find that clip again and post it.

Khokhar to me looks like largest rajput tribe spread all over along with those who claim to be bhattis in punjab. That rajput I posted is also khokhar. I've also seen khokhars mentioned in pindi, jhelum etc

khanabadoshi
07-27-2018, 10:01 PM
Khokhar to me looks like largest rajput tribe spread all over along with those who claim to be bhattis in punjab. That rajput I posted is also khokhar. I've also seen khokhars mentioned in pindi, jhelum etc

There are also a lot of Khokar in Janoobi Punjab.

prashantvaidwan
07-28-2018, 02:53 AM
Khokhar to me looks like largest rajput tribe spread all over along with those who claim to be bhattis in punjab. That rajput I posted is also khokhar. I've also seen khokhars mentioned in pindi, jhelum etc

There are around 30 strong villages of khokhar Hindu jats in West up/ Haryana. Though I never heard of khokhar Hindu rajputs in Rajasthan/up/Haryana/Madhya pradesh

MonkeyDLuffy
07-28-2018, 03:27 AM
There are around 30 strong villages of khokhar Hindu jats in West up/ Haryana. Though I never heard of khokhar Hindu rajputs in Rajasthan/up/Haryana/Madhya pradesh

Khokhar in Punjab are Sikh Rajputs, so are Bhattis. Apparently it is found among Tarkhans are well, my friend who's family migrated from west punjab has the surname khokhar and he is tarkhan.

midichlorian
07-30-2018, 02:29 AM
I am a Leva Patel, but surname is Balar. Anyone ever heard that one before?

bol_nat
08-15-2018, 03:27 AM
@khanabodoshi,

sindh jats tribes of 7th century were Luhanah, sammah and Lakha. Now I guess that make sense why there are no longer any jats in Sindh. Its because these tribes per say don't identity as jats anymore? Or jat was generic identity for particular lifestyle in Sindh back in the day?

https://i.imgur.com/sIpSYLi.png

muzafargarh jat tribes as of 19th century. Maybe Lohanch is same as luhanah of old. Soomro sound like sindhi tribe to me. Apart from sials who are also found in Jhang and hinjra (if they are same as Hanjra) in Gujranwala, never heard of rest. Maybe apart from Sindhis some of them could be related to Rajasthani jats as well.

https://i.imgur.com/iIqW8kj.png

khanabadoshi
08-15-2018, 09:56 AM
@khanabodoshi,

sindh jats tribes of 7th century were Luhanah, sammah and Lakha. Now I guess that make sense why there are no longer any jats in Sindh. Its because these tribes per say don't identity as jats anymore? Or jat was generic identity for particular lifestyle in Sindh back in the day?

https://i.imgur.com/sIpSYLi.png

muzafargarh jat tribes as of 19th century. Maybe Lohanch is same as luhanah of old. Soomro sound like sindhi tribe to me. Apart from sials who are also found in Jhang and hinjra (if they are same as Hanjra) in Gujranwala, never heard of rest. Maybe apart from Sindhis some of them could be related to Rajasthani jats as well.

https://i.imgur.com/iIqW8kj.png


Soomoro is a Sindhi tribe; Hinjra and Hanjra are the same, both spellings are used (they are quite numerous in Muzaffargarh); Lohanch might be related to Lohach/Loach of Rajasthan and Haryana, but it seems most people agree they are not related. Lohanch are exclusive to Layyah, and to particular villages at that, none are from outside Muzaffargarh district. Whatever Jangla biradaris exist, some will be in Sind-Sagar Doab too, like Sial. I read about the Sindhi Jat tribes, and there are people who use the title Jam, but I have to look up my notes on that. There was another breakdown I found for Jatts in the region I'll post it here:




Dhandla, Ghallu, Jakhar, Lohanch, and Makwal tribesIn this post, I shall look at five tribes that are found largely in the uplands of the Chenab and Indus rivers, now forming part of Bhakkar, Layyaj and Muzaffargarh districts. This region goes by the name of the Sindh Sagar Doab (the land between the Indus and Chenab rivers), and is frontier region in terms of both politics and culture. The Jats were probably the earliest settlers, but many Jat tribes have vague traditions of migration from Jaisalmeer or Bikaner in Rajasthan. Like most Bar nomads, they were largely pastoralist till the 19th Century. Almost all consider themselves and are considered as Jats. Of the five tribes, the Dhandla, Lohanch and Makwal are fairly local, but Ghallu and Jakhar have spread to other parts of Punjab.
Dhandla

I shall of by looking at the Dhandla, a tribe of Jat status found in Bhakkar and Rajanpur districts. The tribe claims descent from Dhandla, a Bhatti Rajput, who is said to have come from Jaisalmeer to Multan, where he converted to Islam. Like most Bar tribes, they have traditions of accepting Islam at the hand of a Sufi saint, and in the case of the Dhandla, it was Bahaudin Zakaria of Multan.
In Rajanpur District, their main villages are Basti Dhandla, Raqba Dhandla and Tatarwala. In Bhakkar District, their main villages are Basti Jamal, Mitho Bindu, Bharmi Nawab, Bharmi Charagh and Gadola.
Ghallu
The Ghallu are another tribe of Jat status. The tribe claims descent from Ghallu, a Hindu Rajput, who was converted to Islam, by the famous Sufi saint Makhdum Jahanian of Uch. He is said to have had seven sons, from which the main clans of the tribe claim descent. Their main clans in Bahawalpur are the Hanbirpotre, Ghanunpotre, Dipal, Jhanbu, Kurpal, Kanji and Gujj. However, there is another tradition where that Ghallu was in fact a nickname of Hari Singh, a Panwar Rajput.

The Ghallu are found in the south west corner of Multan District, extending into Lodhran District, across the river Indus in Muzaffargarh District, and near the town of Ahmadpur East in Rahim Yar Khan District. In addition, a few Ghallu villages are also found in Layyah and Bhakkar districts.

Starting with Muzaffargarh, they are found in Alipur Ghalwan Pani Wala, Sanu Wala, Kaurey Wala Nirali Wala and Bambherwala. In Lodhran District, there villages include Malikpur, Qureshiwala, Suiwala, Pacca Munna, Saadullahpur, Yousufwala, Sabra, Bahadarpur, Thath Ghallwan, Khanwah Ghalwaan, and Tibi Ghalwaan. While in Bhakkar District, there most important village is Mouza Dhingana in Tehsil Mankera. Further south in Layyah District, they are found in Chah Ghilay Wala Mouza Gat Nashaib.

In Bahawalpur District, their villages include Ghallwan, Ismailpur Ghallwan and Baqarpur Ghallwan.
Jakhar
I come next to come to the Jakhar, sometimes pronounced as Jhakkars, who are found pretty much throughout South Punjab. In fact in terms of numbers, they are after the Bhatti, the second largest tribe of the Seraiki speaking region. In India, Jakhars are one larger Jat tribes, found in east Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan.

There are a number traditions as to the origin of the Jakhar. William Crook, the late 19th Century British colonial writer in his book Castes of Northwest provinces and Avadh, narrates the story of a king of Dwaraka, who is said to have had a huge bow and arrow and he proposed that whoever broke it would be given a status above the king. The king of the Jakhar clan, Jakhbhadra, tried but failed. The failure made him leave his state and settle in Bikaner, in the area that was then known as Jangladesh.
Among Punjab Jakhars, there are traditions that connect them with Rana Rajwadhan, the ancestor of the Hattar, Kalyar, Kanju and Uttera tribes. Most Jakhar groups have various traditions that came from Rajasthan in the fifteenth century, crossing the Thar Desert, and settling in the valleys of the Sutlej and Chenab rivers, and eventually converting to Islam.

The Jakhars of Pakistan are found mainly in the south of Punjab, in the districts of Layyah, Sargodha, Muzaffargarh, Okara, the village of Jakhar in Toba Tek Singh District, Sahiwal and in Faisalabad districtnear small towns of Mamukanjan and Chak Jakharanwala.
Jakhars are also found in Jakhar village in Gujrat District, while in neighbouring Jhelum District they are found in Kalyal near Dina. In Layyah District, they are found in Hyder Shahwala, Basti Jakhar, Chak152 TDA, Jhakkar Kacha and Jhakkar Pakka, while Dera Ghazi Khan District, they are found in Jakhar Imamudin. Further up along the Indus River, in Bhakkar District they are found in the villages of Basti Jakhar, Basti Dirkhan near Dolatwala and Manjhotanwala.


Lohanch
I shall next look at the Lohanch, a tribe of Jat status. According to tribal traditions, the Lohanch were settled in their present abode by two descendents of the famous Sufi, Bahwal Haq. Makhdum Lal Isa is said to have brought with him two brothers, the elder of whom was called Lohanch, and settled them in what was wasteland, in the Sindh Saggar Doab. The descendants have remained confined in this small territory, which is now part of Layyah District.
The Lohanch are almost confined to Layyah District. Their main villages are Chak 152TDA LAYYAH, Chak 145TDA LAYYAH, Chak 143TDA, Ghullam Hyder Kalluwala, Nangi Lohanch Pukka, Nangi Lohanch Kucha, Lohanch Nasseb and Lohanch Thal Kalan, all in Layyah District.
Makwal
The next tribe I am going to look at are the Makwal. Unlike other tribes in this post, Makwal have traditions of an Arab origin. The word Makwal, is a shortened form of Makkah wal, which in the Seraikilanguage means “from Makkah”. The tribe claims that its ancestors were Arabs from the holy city of Makkah in what is now Saudi Arabia. As far as I know, the Makwal are distinct from the Makkal, who are found further north in Mianwali. Coming back to the Makwal, according to their traditions they arrived in India during the reign of the Sultans of Delhi, and took to agriculture. The Makwal also started to intermarry with other Jat tribes, and as such became Jat.
The Makwal of Kot Addu Tehsil in Muzaffargarh District, who are guardians of the Sufi shrine of Dera Din Pannah, are family that has had some influence in the politics of southern Punjab. Most Makwal villages are found close to the shores of the Indus river. In Muzaffargarh District, their main villages are Bait Rayli, Basti Makwal, Basti Karamwala, Chowk Makwal, Makwal Hader, Makwal, Shah Jamal as well as Dera Din Pannah.

Across the Indus, several Makwal also exist in Dera Ghazi Khan District. The larger Makwal villages include Patti Makwal, Jhok Makwal, Makwal Kalan and Makwal Khurd. While in neighbouring Rajanpur they are found in Basti Basheer Nagar.
Shrine of Dera Din Panah
The Makwal are closely associated with the Sufi shrine of Dera Din Pannah, as they are the heredity caretakers. Din Panah was said to be a Bukhari Saiyad, who settled by the banks of the Indus some four hundred years ago. He is said to have taken up residence in the house of Suhagin, the wife of Akku, a Jat of the Makwal tribe. When Suhagiun’s daughter was married, Din Panah gave himself as part of the dowry. He died in A. H. 1012 (1603 AD), on the west bank of the Indus, and was buried there. However a dispute arose between the Makwals of Dera Ghazi Khan and those of Muzaffargarh as to where Din Panah be buried. The MakwaJs of the east Bank tried to steal his coffin, but were prevented. A feud broke out between the Makwals on each bank of the Indus. At last Din Panah revealed himself in a dream to the brothers of Akku, and told them to make a coffin for the east bank of the Indus, and that his corpse would be found in it also, as well as on the west bank. Since then there bas been a shrine on each bank of the Indus.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-16-2018, 03:38 AM
Soomoro is a Sindhi tribe; Hinjra and Hanjra are the same, both spellings are used (they are quite numerous in Muzaffargarh); Lohanch might be related to Lohach/Loach of Rajasthan and Haryana, but it seems most people agree they are not related. Lohanch are exclusive to Layyah, and to particular villages at that, none are from outside Muzaffargarh district. Whatever Jangla biradaris exist, some will be in Sind-Sagar Doab too, like Sial. I read about the Sindhi Jat tribes, and there are people who use the title Jam, but I have to look up my notes on that. There was another breakdown I found for Jatts in the region I'll post it here:

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Hanjra/hanzra are sindhi jats? Because its a fairly common Sikh jatt surname.

khanabadoshi
08-16-2018, 06:51 AM
Hanjra/hanzra are sindhi jats? Because its a fairly common Sikh jatt surname.

No, I mean I don't think so. They are just Jatt? I didn't list any Sindhi Jatt. Soomro are Sindhi, but in South Punjab they may refer to themselves as Jatts; similar kind of scenario happens in Sindh -- ie. Chandia are Baloch, but in Sindh they take the name Chandio and identify as Sindhi. These name are well-known locally though, like everyone knows that a Hanjra is a Jatt, a Soomro is a Sindhi and a Chandia is a Baloch. The only group that could be "Sindhi Jatt" I can think off the top of my head are the Akera who claim a Sindhi origin but aren't "Sindhi" by tribe. I'm going to post a list for ya....

It's a work in progress, I'm just posting the list in the current state so you get the idea. The Jatt/Rajput group was one list (because it's very hard to distinguish... and as you read some of the descriptions, you'll get a sense of why...), I have divided out some the most likely exclusive Jatts and Rajputs into separate categories, if you see some that are obviously Jatt in the mixed category, tell me.

The list mostly only includes groups who have some portion that speaks Saraiki. I didn't expand it yet to beyond that. The groups in red are tribes I removed from the Jatt/Rajput list in to a firmer category.




BALOCH
JATT/RAJPUT
JATT
RAJPUT/RAJASTHAN
SINDH
PASHTUN
MUSLIM
HINDU



Ahmadani
Aheer (either same as Yadav of Haryana; Jatt ie. same as Heer; Muslim Aheer claim to be Rajput and not related to Yadav)
Aulakh
Bhatti
Soomra; Soomro (Sindhi tribe)
Babar
Aarbi
Arora



Baleli
Baghela (Madhaya Pradesh Rajput?)
Bosan
Bhutta
Akera (Jatt Status: Live exclusively on banks of Jhelum river at least since 18th century north of Kot Khan; claim migration from Sindh; not a Sindhi tribe)
Khakwani
Arain
Bhatia



Bozdar
Chadhar/Chadhrar (Rajput and Jatt Status: claim descent from Chandarh, the son of Raja Ravilan of the lineage of king Pandu of the Mahabharata. They are Chandra Vanshis, and it is widely believed that they are a branch of the Tomar Rajputs, with the branch of the tribe of in Jhang saying that they are the descendants of Raja Toor and that they migrated into the Punjab from Rajputana; Jhang branch claims to be exlcusively Rajput; others in the Bar claim to be Jat)
Hanjra
Chauhan

Tareen
Bodla
Labana



Bugti
Changar (lit. "lime manufacturer"; claim to be migrants from Iran to Kabul to Punjab to Rajasthan; in many regions low-status; have communal tents called "puki"; in Southern Punjab only, -- have Jatt Status and are settled farmers; intermarry with Mahtam and Kanera/Kunara Khel (sub-tribe of Azam Khel sept of Lashari Baloch)
Bharwana [Sial: sub-tribe]
Bohar (Jatt Status: claim to be sub-clan of Panwar Rajput; historical emnity with Naich tribe in which Syeds intervened. Dispute resulted in dispersal of some Bohar to Cholistan and Jaisalmer desert regions)


Chishti
Mahtam



Buledi
Chhachhar (Jatt Status: in Bahawalpur strongly claim Barlas Mughal descent; others claim Abbasi Arab descent) [Septs: Rahmani, Narang, Jugana, Jhunjha, Chhutta, Gureja, Rukana, Kalra, Mudda, Duwani, Dohija, Gabrani, Muria, Kharyani, Zakriani]
Khar
Chhajra (Bhatti Rajput clan; claim to move to Multan from Jaisalmer following Rao Kehar)


Gazar
Marecha



Borana
Dab (Jatt Status: sub-clan of Khokar Rajput; another tradition gives the Dabs a Suryavanshi Rajput, and their ancestor Dab is said to have come to Punjab around 1469 AD; exclusive to Shorkot tehsil of Jhang)
Kharal



Hans
Meghwal



Chandia
Daha
Turkhel (Jatt Status: claim and considered to be Jatts that were Pashtunified; trilingual; localized to Mianwali)



Jhabel
Odh



Chutani
Daher




Jhandir
Vagri



Dreshak
Daulatana




Kakakora




Das(h)ti
Dawana




Khagga




Domki
Dhandla




Lohar




Gabol
Dhandu




Mallaah




Gadhi
Drigh




Miana




Gola
Ghallu




Mirasi




Gopang
Gilotar




Mohana




Gorchani
Hattar




Mussali




Gulfad
(Hashmeera)




Qureshi




Hooth
Jakhar




Sayyid




Jagirani
Jamra









Jakhrani
Janjua Jat









Jamali
Jhammat









Jatoi
Jhullan









Jattak
Johiya









Jiskani
Juta









Kalati
Kalasra









Khetran
Kanji









Khosa
Kanju









Kunara or kanera khel
Katewa









Khushk
Kathia









Korai
Khichi









Kulachi
Khokhar









Kupchani
Lali









Lashari
Lalika









Leghari
Langah









Lehri
Langrial









Lund
Lodhra









Magsi
Lohanch









Marri
Mahaar









Mastoi
Mahar









Mazari
Mahra









Mirani
Mahtam









Nutkani
Makwal









Nizamani
Mallana









Pasoi
Manjotha









Pitafi
Marral









Qaisrani
Meo









Rind
Naich









Sanjrani
Naul









Shar
Nonari









Umrani
Noon










Panwar










Parhar (Jatt status; claim and generally accepted as descendants of Gujara-Partihara invaders in 5th century. Claim historical migration from Ajmer.)










Rath (nomadic)










Rawn










Sangi










Sagla










Sahota










Sahotra










Sahu










Salara










Samma










Samtia










Sandhila










Shajra










Sial










Sirki










Talokar










Thaheem










Traggar










Unar










Uttera










Uttra










Wagha










Waiha










Waince










Waseer










Wasli










ALSO... this is the wrong thread for this. I will move this later to the tribal analysis blah blah thread.

khanabadoshi
08-17-2018, 02:25 AM
^^ WRT to Rajputs, I'm trying to figure out WHICH Raj each traces lineage to, and then categorize based on that. An impossible task, but I think it's something worth trying.

bol_nat
08-21-2018, 09:01 AM
Baloch population in British punjab was 467,000. Out of around 12 million muslims. Around 10% of them were living in Haryana, Delhi and spoke Haryanvi.

https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2018/06/12/baloch-population-of-punjab-according-to-the-1901-census/

khanabadoshi
08-21-2018, 11:25 AM
Baloch population in British punjab was 467,000. Out of around 12 million muslims. Around 10% of them were living in Haryana, Delhi and spoke Haryanvi.

https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2018/06/12/baloch-population-of-punjab-according-to-the-1901-census/

That is very interesting, I had no idea that Baloch went further east than Okara in Punjab. Will have to look into this.

Also I forgot to mention that we have an appendage to names "Thatta" -- ie. Thatta-Qureshi; Qureshi of Thatta, Sindh. I also personally know a few Jams from Dera Ghazi Khan, but I don't know their tribe/clan. I'll have to ask.
This is somewhat common, to signify the person is originally from Thatta in Sindh. I can't recall it for other city names in Sindh. Vaguely I can recall a Shikarpuri, and also a decent amount of people from Sukkur. However, everyone in Sukkur seems to speak some variant of Sindhi or Saraiki that is extremely mutually intelligible, ie. I would call it Saraiki from my perspective, and they call it Sarikoli or Siroki dialect of Sindhi (something like that) -- as such we don't really consider those people who currently live in Sukkur as Sindhi-proper (linguistically), much less the people who moved from there.

Regarding Thatta, it seems that everyone from Thatta keeps the reference and everyone else always makes that distinction too when referring to them. ie. I always refer to that kind of Qureshi as Thatta-Qureshi, I never say Qureshi alone. They also usually name their muhallah, Thatta; and other migrant groups often signify where they migrated from or their group in the name of their settlment. ie. Basti ____ Wala. The _____ for where they are from or what group/clan/tribe settled. Almost all these Bastis are formed post-17th century.

https://i.gyazo.com/05cce3054ec6112338893ba941faf270.png

bol_nat
08-21-2018, 05:08 PM
I also once saw video of Indian Gujarati Baloch. So some baloch likely settled in Indian state of Gujarat. British punjab census 1901, sikh jatt domination doesn't surprise me as they made 66% of sikh population in 1901.

https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/tag/census-of-punjab-1901/

Pathan population of British punjab, 267,000.

"In terms of distribution, most of the Pathan population was found in four distinct areas, about 20% in Mianwali, similar percentage in the Chhach, 20% in the region around Delhi, about 20% in East Punjab especially in Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar, Ambala, and Gurdaspur, 5% were the Multani Pathans, found in southern Punjab, the remainder distributed in Lahore and other parts of Punjab."
https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2018/06/06/pathan-population-of-punjab-according-to-the-1901-census/

Its funny new pashto speaking migrants in punjab already likely match or exceed old pathan population in punjab if we multiple 1901 census with 10x.

Pakistan 2017 census punjab, around 2.2 million pashto speakers or 2%.

prashantvaidwan
08-21-2018, 06:57 PM
That is very interesting, I had no idea that Baloch went further east than Okara in Punjab. Will have to look into this.

Also I forgot to mention that we have an appendage to names "Thatta" -- ie. Thatta-Qureshi; Qureshi of Thatta, Sindh. I also personally know a few Jams from Dera Ghazi Khan, but I don't know their tribe/clan. I'll have to ask.
This is somewhat common, to signify the person is originally from Thatta in Sindh. I can't recall it for other city names in Sindh. Vaguely I can recall a Shikarpuri, and also a decent amount of people from Sukkur. However, everyone in Sukkur seems to speak some variant of Sindhi or Saraiki that is extremely mutually intelligible, ie. I would call it Saraiki from my perspective, and they call it Sarikoli or Siroki dialect of Sindhi (something like that) -- as such we don't really consider those people who currently live in Sukkur as Sindhi-proper (linguistically), much less the people who moved from there.

Regarding Thatta, it seems that everyone from Thatta keeps the reference and everyone else always makes that distinction too when referring to them. ie. I always refer to that kind of Qureshi as Thatta-Qureshi, I never say Qureshi alone. They also usually name their muhallah, Thatta; and other migrant groups often signify where they migrated from or their group in the name of their settlment. ie. Basti ____ Wala. The _____ for where they are from or what group/clan/tribe settled. Almost all these Bastis are formed post-17th century.

https://i.gyazo.com/05cce3054ec6112338893ba941faf270.png

balochs also residing in West up..in the proximity of my village...though a single village in entire district

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.news18.com/amp/news/india/living-in-oblivion-for-years-how-a-baloch-village-cropped-up-on-indias-map-1701917.html

khanabadoshi
08-21-2018, 09:14 PM
^^ Now that is very interesting. That is much further east than I ever imagined possible. A whole village isn't a small thing.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-22-2018, 12:38 AM
There are ethinic Balochs living in Maharashtra as well. One of the famous stuntman family in bollywood is Baloch. Personally know a Baloch from Mumbai who works as a Photographer here in Toronto. He didn't come off as typical looking marathi muslim to me, so I asked about his background and then when he told me.


Wahid Lala, as he’s called, is the most famous resident of Gaondevi Dongri, a hillock in suburban Mumbai that 1,067 Balochi people call home. He is, after all, the first Baloch stunt driver in the Hindi film industry.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/bollywood/mumbai-s-filmi-daredevils-with-a-cross-border-history/story-zZxj8hDGF0EiOahNCJmUTL.html

bol_nat
08-22-2018, 03:29 AM
Gujjar population in British punjab 1901, total 631,000. 460k muslims, 169k hindus and about 2k sikhs. There were also around 100k gujjars in Hazara divison of NWFP. Majority of muslim gujjars were in modern west and east punjab, and hindu gujjars in Haryana, Delhi.

Distribuition
"The region of Gujrat, literally meaning the place of the Gujjars was and remains the centre of the tribe. The majority of the Gujjars were found in the foothills of the Himalyas, stretching from Attock to Ambala. A second group, largely nomadic was found in the Punjab Hill States, mainly in Chamba, Nalagarh, Bilaspur and Mandi, who were largely nomadic. These two groups were largely Muslim, although in Ambala there was a large Hindu minority. A third group found Lahore onwards to Ludhiana, largely cultivators and also Muslim. A fourth group were found in present day Haryana, largly still rearing cattle, with a slight Hindu majority. This last grroup spoke Haryanvi."
https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2018/07/14/gujar-gujjar-population-of-punjab-according-to-the-1901-census-of-punjab/

This is more or less what I have noticed, vast majority of gujjars in punjab are concentrated in north west and north east districts of punjab. As one moves towards south in punjab, there is hardly any population of gujjars.

https://i.imgur.com/TjJuU2z.jpg

bmoney
08-22-2018, 04:23 AM
There are ethinic Balochs living in Maharashtra as well. One of the famous stuntman family in bollywood is Baloch. Personally know a Baloch from Mumbai who works as a Photographer here in Toronto. He didn't come off as typical looking marathi muslim to me, so I asked about his background and then when he told me.



https://www.hindustantimes.com/bollywood/mumbai-s-filmi-daredevils-with-a-cross-border-history/story-zZxj8hDGF0EiOahNCJmUTL.html

Man the Baloch always have an interesting distinct look

“There was a time when only Muslim Baloch and Bhagnaris [Hindu Baloch] worked in Mumbai’s quarries,” says Vikalp Kumar

Hindu Baloch exist?

MonkeyDLuffy
08-22-2018, 05:10 AM
Man the Baloch always have an interesting distinct look

“There was a time when only Muslim Baloch and Bhagnaris [Hindu Baloch] worked in Mumbai’s quarries,” says Vikalp Kumar

Hindu Baloch exist?

https://thekarachiwalla.com/2016/10/03/city-landmarks-bhagnari-temple/

Apparently they exist, According to this article from site based in karachi, there are only two Hindu Baloch villages, and they are known as Bhagnaris. Mumbai has a good population of them.

Here, found more info:


According to Hari Nasta, one of the members of this community, they were originally inhabitants of twin villages Bhag and Nar in the plains of southern Balochistan. Being very involved in trade and business activities in a Muslim-dominated region, many from this community migrated to other regions including Punjab and Sindh in search of better opportunities.

Poplay says that the language spoken by the community is Saraiki, a common dialect in Pakistan.

https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/a-piece-of-balochistan-in-mumbai-since-partition-150-families-khatti-dal-3740905/


Did some more digging, they seem to be a trading community similar to present day Hindu Balochs (one would argue that they're migrants, but they've been living there for generations.). Here is a pdf giving detailed history:

http://www.ebhagnaris.goshti.com/content/Entity5/Type259/ID13648/BHAGNARIS%20History%20PDF.pdf

bol_nat
08-22-2018, 05:42 AM
Man the Baloch always have an interesting distinct look

“There was a time when only Muslim Baloch and Bhagnaris [Hindu Baloch] worked in Mumbai’s quarries,” says Vikalp Kumar

Hindu Baloch exist?

Not ethnic baloch but hindus from "Balochistan" province. Bhagnaris could be sindhi/seraiki hindu tribe.

bmoney
08-22-2018, 05:50 AM
Gujjar population in British punjab 1901, total 631,000. 460k muslims, 169k hindus and about 2k sikhs. There were also around 100k gujjars in Hazara divison of NWFP. Majority of muslim gujjars were in modern west and east punjab, and hindu gujjars in Haryana, Delhi.

Distribuition
"The region of Gujrat, literally meaning the place of the Gujjars was and remains the centre of the tribe. The majority of the Gujjars were found in the foothills of the Himalyas, stretching from Attock to Ambala. A second group, largely nomadic was found in the Punjab Hill States, mainly in Chamba, Nalagarh, Bilaspur and Mandi, who were largely nomadic. These two groups were largely Muslim, although in Ambala there was a large Hindu minority. A third group found Lahore onwards to Ludhiana, largely cultivators and also Muslim. A fourth group were found in present day Haryana, largly still rearing cattle, with a slight Hindu majority. This last grroup spoke Haryanvi."
https://newpakhistorian.wordpress.com/2018/07/14/gujar-gujjar-population-of-punjab-according-to-the-1901-census-of-punjab/

This is more or less what I have noticed, vast majority of gujjars in punjab are concentrated in north west and north east districts of punjab. As one moves towards south in punjab, there is hardly any population of gujjars.

Due to their genetic results, is it possible Pahari Jatts and Rajputs have Pahari Gujjar origins?

bol_nat
08-22-2018, 06:00 AM
Due to their genetic results, is it possible Pahari Jatts and Rajputs have Pahari Gujjar origins?

Doubt it, there tend to be similarities in clans of rajputs and jatts but not much with gujjars.

Saad2016
08-22-2018, 11:02 PM
What is a Pahari Jatt and Pahari Gujjar and how are they different from coastal Jatts, Gujjars, Valley jatts etc . The term Pahari jatt look absurd. Is it a forum user invention lol?

khanabadoshi
08-22-2018, 11:28 PM
What is a Pahari Jatt and Pahari Gujjar and how are they different from coastal Jatts, Gujjars, Valley jatts etc . The term Pahari jatt look absurd. Is it a forum user invention lol?

People from this area we refer to as Pahari, just as a regional and/or linguistic distinction, similar to how Haryana Jatt is distinguished. Gujjars seem to be relatively uniform over different areas, however, we don't have that many personal kits of Gujjars to compare. Jatts seem to have a decent amount of variation depending on region (ie. Haryana Jatts really stand out). Rajputs are all over, so it makes more sense to always include what region they are in.

https://i.gyazo.com/7aab5bfe922c0edfaa93c0577b767b19.png

Probably Sapporo's spreadsheet shows the variation between the regions. I'm pretty sure all the people we call Pahari Jatts, speak Pahari/Pothwari -- and that is the main distinction. However, I'm not sure. bolnat and Sapporo will know better.

Saad2016
08-22-2018, 11:46 PM
People from this area we refer to as Pahari, just as a regional and/or linguistic distinction, similar to how Haryana Jatt is distinguished. Gujjars seem to be relatively uniform over different areas, however, we don't have that many personal kits of Gujjars to compare. Jatts seem to have a decent amount of variation depending on region (ie. Haryana Jatts really stand out). Rajputs are all over, so it makes more sense to always include what region they are in.



Probably Sapporo's spreadsheet shows the variation between the regions. I'm pretty sure all the people we call Pahari Jatts, speak Pahari/Pothwari -- and that is the main distinction. However, I'm not sure. bolnat and Sapporo will know better.

Interesting that's what I thought too that this is a creation of forum members caz didn't heard of it in real life that somebody would introduce his clan/tribe as Pahari non Pahari jatt lolz...I have heard of other clan nomenclature like people classifying themselves as : Waraich jatts, Cheema Jatts. Brar, Wutto etc etc...

Good to know , 11 and 12 however look too distant and deep in the Himalayas...more like the Ladakh region. COuld not be a Gujjar/Jatt ( Punjabi area). Any takes on 11 and 12?

Saad2016
08-22-2018, 11:49 PM
11 and 12 would be Srinagar and around BandiPora and not so much North as I previously thought !

https://i.imgur.com/EBSy7cj.jpg

khanabadoshi
08-23-2018, 12:16 AM
Interesting that's what I thought too that this is a creation of forum members caz didn't heard of it in real life that somebody would introduce his clan/tribe as Pahari non Pahari jatt lolz...I have heard of other clan nomenclature like people classifying themselves as : Waraich jatts, Cheema Jatts. Brar, Wutto etc etc...

Good to know , 11 and 12 however look too distant and deep in the Himalayas...more like the Ladakh region. COuld not be a Gujjar/Jatt ( Punjabi area). Any takes on 11 and 12?

It's more like the distinction between Punjabi and Pahari, as someone from that region is more likely to not call themselves Punjabi. Hence, we start by what people call themselves generally (usually this is linguistic or regional) ie. Punjabi, N/S/E/W Punjab, Pahari, Kashmiri, Koshur, Haryanvi, Saraiki etc... and then their qaum ie. Jatt, Rajput, Gujjar, Baloch, Pashtun etc. and then their clan/gotra/tribe ie. Warraich, Chauhan, Qaisrani, Musakhel etc...

My preference is to start with geography always, as it helps sort/categorizes things more cleaner, and then also for comparison among different qaums within a certain region easier and allows to see if there is a difference between a Chauhan of Kashmir compared to one in Bahawalpur. Basically, this structure of categorizing makes for much deeper analysis on our part.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-23-2018, 12:27 AM
It's more like the distinction between Punjabi and Pahari, as someone from that region is more likely to not call themselves Punjabi. Hence, we start by what people call themselves generally (usually this is linguistic or regional) ie. Punjabi, N/S/E/W Punjab, Pahari, Kashmiri, Koshur, Haryanvi, Saraiki etc... and then their qaum ie. Jatt, Rajput, Gujjar, Baloch, Pashtun etc. and then their clan/gotra/tribe ie. Warraich, Chauhan, Qaisrani, Musakhel etc...

My preference is to start with geography always, as it helps sort/categorizes things more cleaner, and then also for comparison among different qaums within a certain region easier and allows to see if there is a difference between a Chauhan of Kashmir compared to one in Bahawalpur. Basically, this structure of categorizing makes for much deeper analysis on our part.

What we found that users from northern punjab aka pahari punjabis score very similar or same regardless of their biradari. Few months ago a Brahmin user ancestrally from that region literally scored like carbon copy of Jatts and gujjars and rajput samples from that area.

bol_nat
08-23-2018, 02:17 AM
What is a Pahari Jatt and Pahari Gujjar and how are they different from coastal Jatts, Gujjars, Valley jatts etc . The term Pahari jatt look absurd. Is it a forum user invention lol?

I think it was used to distinct jatts of different regions on this forum. Later on as more results came from different bradaris they all had more or less same profile in this region.

https://i.imgur.com/xhHwR16.jpg

bored
08-23-2018, 03:33 AM
Lol good to see that this stuff is still being discussed

MonkeyDLuffy
08-23-2018, 10:02 AM
Lol good to see that this stuff is still being discussed

Eyyy my boi bored is back.

Saad2016
08-23-2018, 01:04 PM
What we found that users from northern punjab aka pahari punjabis score very similar or same regardless of their biradari. Few months ago a Brahmin user ancestrally from that region literally scored like carbon copy of Jatts and gujjars and rajput samples from that area.

So in other words, your geography i.e. your environment dictates your autosomal? same region same set of autosomal...?

MonkeyDLuffy
08-23-2018, 08:04 PM
So in other words, your geography i.e. your environment dictates your autosomal? same region same set of autosomal...?

No, environment or geography does not dictate it especially in south asia unless you're very isolated population like kalash. What in case of northern punjabis admixture came in light is, that either they all received the same waves of admixture or the people from that area received very little admixture and the base population was same of the region regardless of their biradari. So far we've seen decent results from different ruling or privileged communities of that region which follow the same trend.

Of course same cannot be said about less privileged communities like Kaami or musselis, as they usually score different and are more AASI shifted.

You never posted your harappa results, since you're from that region, I'm curious to see yours.

26284729292
08-23-2018, 08:17 PM
No, environment or geography does not dictate it especially in south asia unless you're very isolated population like kalash. What in case of northern punjabis admixture came in light is, that either they all received the same waves of admixture or the people from that area received very little admixture and the base population was same of the region regardless of their biradari. So far we've seen decent results from different ruling or privileged communities of that region which follow the same trend.

Of course same cannot be said about less privileged communities like Kaami or musselis, as they usually score different and are more AASI shifted.

You never posted your harappa results, since you're from that region, I'm curious to see yours.

I can't tell you how long people told me that climate dictated genetics. I'm glad I never believed them.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-23-2018, 09:02 PM
I can't tell you how long people told me that climate dictated genetics. I'm glad I never believed them.

There is huge difference in Ancestry genetics and developing mutations to adapt to a specific environment. Back in India I have heard a lot that the reason people from south are dark because of climate. While complexion is still random throughout south asia, and you can have light or dark skin within same community or even family, but so far it has been associated with elevated AASI. Climate won't change your Halogroups or admixture.

surbakhunWeesste
08-23-2018, 09:04 PM
I can't tell you how long people told me that climate dictated genetics. I'm glad I never believed them.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006616
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-much-of-human-height/
https://theaggie.org/2018/02/19/migratory-songbirds-genetics-climate-change/

You wanna defy evolution? lol

Censored
08-23-2018, 09:05 PM
No, environment or geography does not dictate it especially in south asia unless you're very isolated population like kalash. What in case of northern punjabis admixture came in light is, that either they all received the same waves of admixture or the people from that area received very little admixture and the base population was same of the region regardless of their biradari. So far we've seen decent results from different ruling or privileged communities of that region which follow the same trend.

Of course same cannot be said about less privileged communities like Kaami or musselis, as they usually score different and are more AASI shifted.

You never posted your harappa results, since you're from that region, I'm curious to see yours.

Can you post photos of these Kami and Mussali people? I am curious as I have never seen them.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-23-2018, 09:09 PM
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006616
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-much-of-human-height/
https://theaggie.org/2018/02/19/migratory-songbirds-genetics-climate-change/

You wanna defy evolution? lol

I think he meant in admixture sense, not in physical adaptation to environment.

poi
08-23-2018, 09:28 PM
Can you post photos of these Kami and Mussali people? I am curious as I have never seen them.

Please post all pictures in the chehra thread :P Let's not ruin this thread. We need 1 place for all chehras/mukhdas/mukh/roop

surbakhunWeesste
08-23-2018, 09:52 PM
I think he meant in admixture sense, not in physical adaptation to environment.

When a mutation occurs, how do you think it gets transferred to the offsprings?

26284729292
08-23-2018, 10:00 PM
There is huge difference in Ancestry genetics and developing mutations to adapt to a specific environment. Back in India I have heard a lot that the reason people from south are dark because of climate. While complexion is still random throughout south asia, and you can have light or dark skin within same community or even family, but so far it has been associated with elevated AASI. Climate won't change your Halogroups or admixture.

Yeah i meant people legit thought the only difference between a northerner and southerner was due to temperature differences or something along those lines. Couldn't be farther from the truth admix wise.

MonkeyDLuffy
08-23-2018, 10:04 PM
When a mutation occurs, how do you think it gets transferred to the offsprings?

Let me be specific, when I say admixture, I am talking about admixture components, e.g. climate wont change how much Iran N a person or a community has, it'll still stay same. On the other hand, if are talking about mutation, if an R1a1a person develops a new mutation, it becomes a subclade of R1a1a, which he will pass to his kid. I am strictly referring to admixture.

surbakhunWeesste
08-23-2018, 10:08 PM
Let me be specific, when I say admixture, I am talking about admixture components, e.g. climate wont change how much Iran N a person or a community has it'll still stay same. On the other hand, if are talking about mutation, if an R1a1a person develops a new mutation, it becomes a subclade of R1a1a, which he will pass to his kid. I am strictly referring to admixture.

haha, I get it now.

poi
08-23-2018, 10:47 PM
Yeah i meant people legit thought the only difference between a northerner and southerner was due to temperature differences or something along those lines. Couldn't be farther from the truth admix wise.

Think of it this way -- first, there is a mutation due to some external stimulant. Then it is all 'genetic' lol. At least until there is another mutation. And then it is all genetics after that. So on and so on.

Raza94
08-23-2018, 10:57 PM
What we found that users from northern punjab aka pahari punjabis score very similar or same regardless of their biradari. Few months ago a Brahmin user ancestrally from that region literally scored like carbon copy of Jatts and gujjars and rajput samples from that area.

How do Pahari jatts score?

26284729292
08-24-2018, 12:07 AM
Think of it this way -- first, there is a mutation due to some external stimulant. Then it is all 'genetic' lol. At least until there is another mutation. And then it is all genetics after that. So on and so on.

Oh I know. Just venting a bit about how genetics are perceived to work. That and the whole "giraffes have long necks because the trees are tall so they stretched out" and all that kinda stuff.

Moreso I was commenting on the whole reasoning of people who deny outside migration and are super with the migration out of india theory, who suggest that all Indians are virtually the same and differences come from things like region/temperature, racial constructs were created by colonizers, etc. etc. when the facts about all this are on the table and nMonte is just another indication of what we already know.

bmoney
08-24-2018, 12:35 AM
Oh I know. Just venting a bit about how genetics are perceived to work. That and the whole "giraffes have long necks because the trees are tall so they stretched out" and all that kinda stuff.

Moreso I was commenting on the whole reasoning of people who deny outside migration and are super with the migration out of india theory, who suggest that all Indians are virtually the same and differences come from things like region/temperature, racial constructs were created by colonizers, etc. etc. when the facts about all this are on the table and nMonte is just another indication of what we already know.

Its mainly Gangetic plains Hindutvavadis who say that, but then they also have no interest or explanation for Dravidian languages and culture (excl Aryan superstrate) and they claim the IVC despite any Indo-Iranian cultural features in the archaeology. Obv they are genetically descended from it but they call it Indo-Aryan

NW people know this is not true

Tamils also know this not true, and there are a large sections of people who are confused in between two positions.

But definitely 'environment' related selection and founder effects happen, R1a, lactase persistence, lack of selection for light skin in the South (didn't know this was a thing but there is a paper)

A classic example is the Kalash y-dna mix due to their environmental isolation looking different to populations who surround them

Censored
08-24-2018, 12:51 AM
Its mainly Gangetic plains Hindutvavadis who say that, but then they also have no interest or explanation for Dravidian languages and culture (excl Aryan superstrate) and they claim the IVC despite any Indo-Iranian cultural features in the archaeology. Obv they are genetically descended from it but they call it Indo-Aryan

NW people know this is not true

Tamils also know this not true, and there are a large sections of people who are confused in between two positions.

But definitely 'environment' related selection and founder effects happen, R1a, lactase persistence, lack of selection for light skin in the South (didn't know this was a thing but there is a paper)

A classic example is the Kalash y-dna mix due to their environmental isolation looking different to populations who surround them

It's an overcompensation for colonialism. The idea is that the Brits came along and divided the people on the basis of religion, caste, language, race, etc. and they invented these theories to mentally subjugate the people. Environmental differences can't explain why there are differences in morphology between castes-for example why Brahmins look so different from tribals of the same region. On the flipside there's those who exaggerate differences and like to think that somehow North Indians and Pakistanis(always said in the same breath) are closer to Europeans and Middle Easterns in looks and genetics than they are to South Indians, which we all know is horse-shit.

Saad2016
08-24-2018, 01:11 AM
I also think that evolution is big part of it but then again people want to be unique and take great pride in their pedigree and end up defying some of the very basics fundamentals of science.

Saad2016
08-24-2018, 01:12 AM
haha, I get it now.

Lets not mix YDNA with Autosomal. Your looks are dependant on autosomal admixture and not Y-DNA. Correct?

MonkeyDLuffy
08-24-2018, 02:32 AM
Lets not mix YDNA with Autosomal. Your looks are dependant on autosomal admixture and not Y-DNA. Correct?

Yes, Ydna does not affect it, since even though you wont have any noticable steppe left, you can still be same halogroup as the paternal ancestor who was 100% steppe, because it is passed from father to son, regardless of admixture. Admixture and then some adaptation to local environment can affect your physical look.