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Squad
02-17-2018, 02:35 PM
I think we can all pretty much agree that height is a trait that people talk about a great deal. But it is also really misunderstood and is surrounded by false stereotypes, like Northern Europeans are giants or the Chinese are short. First of all, it is important to know that Northern Europeans (currently around 181cm) are very close to their optimal height since they were well-off for many decades and eat a lot of animal proteins (the most influential height factor after DNA). And their height is nothing special, even at its optimal 182cm or so stage, except maybe the Balts who seem to actually be rather tall as well as the anomalous, probably selection-driven Dutch with their 184cm. Honestly, Southern Euros might very well catch up with most Northerners while dinaric people are already taller and could reach as much as 190cm for Herzegovinians (currently more or less 185cm for the new gen), easily making them the tallest Europeans both currently and optimally!

However, as tall as Euros seem to be, there are actually many african populations with much taller height averages, at least potentially if given the same amount of prosperous decades. The various elongated nilotic tribes of the South Sudan are of course the tallest people of the world, their optimal height might be as high as 200cm on average or at the very least 195cm! Then you have the great lakes ''Nilo-Hamites'' (Turkana, Maasai, Datog...) and the Sahelians, especially the Senegalese and the Malians, for whom an optimal height of 193cm would be realistic. I'm actually familiar with the Senegalese and the Malians and I assure you that their height is extreme, no less than a third of the males reach 190cm, as impressive and unreal it might sound to you ! It is also believed that the Tuareg Berbers might be even taller than their black neighbors, which would result in them being ranked second in the world maybe or third if the ''Nilo-Hamites'' happen to be taller. The Cushites are also very tall, I'm familiar with the Somalis and their average is currently about 183-184cm for the young generation born and raised here and I believe the Ogaden Somalis from Ethiopia are even taller. Note that populations that were subjected to a lot of food deprivation will require more time to attain their optimal stature so maybe the Somalis could surpass even the western Sahelians, though I'm not sure. I'm also very well acquainted with the Chadians and they're easily as tall as the Somalis. Then I can also tell that the Tunisians are tall as well, about 182cm for young men.

So these are really the tallest people of the world, not the Swedes, Germans or even the Dutch. Even other african populations of less extreme height will end up taller than most Nordics, including both Blacks and Maghrebis, the two of whom already at around 180-181cm on average when born and raised here. The only Europeans that could be making it to the top ten are the Bosnians. To be fair, even West Asians and North Indians are getting taller than most Euros and here they're currently at 178cm. The Chinese whom I referred to earlier are actually not the dwarfs most people portray them to be, the northern Han at least will definitely reach the northern european level as well if not surpass it. Even the Bengalis whom were being towered at by everybody are now at 175cm over here and the Cambodians are already at 177cm! The shorter populations include the Vietnamese and the Latino-Americans, both at about 173cm or maybe 174cm for the former who are for some reason much shorter than the Cambodians, a fact historically already attested.

One very important thing to keep in mind also is that populations with longer legs (Africans especially) have higher standard deviations due to the legs being more plastic - as in the most influenced by non genetic factors - body parts growth wise compared with the torso. Thus the long-legged populations are expected to gain more height under optimal conditions since more of their stature is made up by the legs, this would bring down their high SDs and raise their stature at the same time.

Herr Abubu
02-17-2018, 10:05 PM
speculations based on unsubstantiated claims

Squad
02-17-2018, 10:17 PM
speculations based on unsubstantiated claims

Which part exactly you find speculative? The modern averages are both from studies and personal observations since I live in arguably the most multiethnic city of the world and I assure you I'm not just making numbers up. The expected optimal averages are estimated by using, as a calibration, the secular height increase that happened in Europe during the last 150 years or so during which populations such as the Dutch ultimately grew 15 to 20 centimeters as well as that observed in Japan, whose mean height increased from 157-158cm to 172-173cm, but still hasn't reached its maximum mostly due to low animal protein intake and the recent trend of japanese pregnant women undergoing self-imposed dieting (https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2010/11/03/national/dieting-moms-babies-underweight/#.WoitLlrOWUk), resulting in a decrease in national birthweight which is linked with final adult height and prevents the Japanese from growing any further as a nation. So if we take these two facts into account, it is possible that the Japanese could optimally reach something like 176-177cm, which would be about 1.12 times the value for the 19th century. If we apply this factor to other populations, it might serve as a good approximation for their average height under optimal conditions.

yelmex
02-18-2018, 02:07 AM
Any substantial dietetic reasons behind the tall height of many Africans? I've been to Africa before but may seem ignorant on this... the food didn't strike me as something that supports good body growth

Johane Derite
02-18-2018, 02:13 AM
It's called Allen's rule. It pertains to height, leg to torso ratio, brachycephaly to doliocephaly etc.

Squad
02-18-2018, 10:06 PM
Any substantial dietetic reasons behind the tall height of many Africans? I've been to Africa before but may seem ignorant on this... the food didn't strike me as something that supports good body growth

Those Africans are genetically tall probably through selection of any kind or sometimes mutation(s) preceding a certain founder effect. If they were to be on animal protein rich diets, they would be even taller like over here in ''the west'' where they tower over everyone, you would know this if there were senegalese in your area for example.

raven321
01-10-2019, 07:13 PM
Obviously it is because of cow's milk. The IGF-1 levels are meant to turn a baby cow into a gigantic plant-eating machine in 6 months. When humans consume this, they become abnormally large. Chinese are mostly lactose intolerance, hence milk is a small part of their culture. As well, animal protein is relatively low. Mesolithic Europeans were relatively short and stocky.

Emilio Delfin Vang B
01-11-2019, 10:43 PM
Yes you got the reason, there are a lot of ethnic groups in the world that is hard classify for height, is not the height is the kind of body

spruithean
01-12-2019, 10:48 PM
Yes you got the reason, there are a lot of ethnic groups in the world that is hard classify for height, is not the height is the kind of body

What?

rms2
01-13-2019, 12:49 AM
My own height is 185.42 cm or 6 foot 1 inch. Here's a height bell curve I found. I'm not sure what the source of its stats is, and I don't feel like hunting it down, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you feel is needed. It strikes me as probably fairly accurate.

28347

sktibo
01-14-2019, 05:04 PM
This is entirely anecdotal but currently I live in Taiwan and I can't help but notice how tall many of the locals are. It may be because I live in a very rich area but the idea that ethnically Chinese people are short has been disproven in my eyes. One of my neighbors has trouble walking into the elevator. It isn't like everyone in this area is tall but a large percentage of people appear to be over 6'3.

Ethereal
01-16-2019, 08:09 PM
My own height is 185.42 cm or 6 foot 1 inch. Here's a height bell curve I found. I'm not sure what the source of its stats is, and I don't feel like hunting it down, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you feel is needed. It strikes me as probably fairly accurate.

28347

I feel like that graph would have been made either when people were shorter, or perhaps with people all across the world. I'm 175cm and considered somewhat short and at best medium-short (not within the Jewish community, I'd be about average there, but comparing myself to natives in England at least).

rms2
01-21-2019, 12:35 AM
My own height is 185.42 cm or 6 foot 1 inch. Here's a height bell curve I found. I'm not sure what the source of its stats is, and I don't feel like hunting it down, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you feel is needed. It strikes me as probably fairly accurate.

28347

I judge those bell curves by my own personal experience. At my height, I am taller than most other guys but still shorter than many of them. That's basically what I see reflected in the male bell curve above, so it strikes me as reasonably accurate.

ianz91
01-21-2019, 01:41 AM
I am 5'9 or 175cm, late 20s, and find myself often shorter than most other guys in my race and age group. 5'9 is supposedly the average height for men in America.

Celt_??
01-21-2019, 03:37 AM
My own height is 185.42 cm or 6 foot 1 inch. Here's a height bell curve I found. I'm not sure what the source of its stats is, and I don't feel like hunting it down, so take it with whatever size grain of salt you feel is needed. It strikes me as probably fairly accurate.

28347

What country or region does the data represent?

Celt_??
01-21-2019, 03:41 AM
I judge those bell curves by my own personal experience. At my height, I am taller than most other guys but still shorter than many of them. That's basically what I see reflected in the male bell curve above, so it strikes me as reasonably accurate.

The apex of the curve for men is 177 cm which calculates to 5 feet, 8 inches tall - Not an average height for men here in Virginia. I think.

Dorkymon
01-21-2019, 10:11 AM
It's a combination of nutrition and genetics, but as the Dutch have shown, nutrition is the initial kickstarter. People also can't grow indefinitely and the cut-off before health issues start to kick in is somewhere in the range of 1.95-2m if I'm not mistaken.

rms2
01-21-2019, 12:47 PM
What country or region does the data represent?

See this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13500-Tallest-populations-the-real-story&p=537343&viewfull=1#post537343).

Finn
01-21-2019, 02:04 PM
I think I live in a city (half of them is beneath 30) with may be the tallest people in Europe. The average man in Groningen is about 185 cm.

I guess this has partly a nurture explanation, the welfare has risen over the last hunderd year, soo good nutrition (lots of cheese and milk ;)

But it's also nature, because even in tiny Netherlands the North Dutch stay on average 2 cm longer than the South Dutch.

So there is a genetic factor, lately there is much discussion about the corded roots of the Dutch Bell Beaker....has this also influenced the genotype for example genes for greater length?

Anyone?

morganman3
01-21-2019, 06:24 PM
I think I live in a city (half of them is beneath 30) with may be the tallest people in Europe. The average man in Groningen is about 185 cm.

I guess this has partly a nurture explanation, the welfare has risen over the last hunderd year, soo good nutrition (lots of cheese and milk ;)

But it's also nature, because even in tiny Netherlands the North Dutch stay on average 2 cm longer than the South Dutch.

So there is a genetic factor, lately there is much discussion about the corded roots of the Dutch Bell Beaker....has this also influenced the genotype for example genes for greater length?

Anyone?

This is a good article on genetic height in Europe, although it doesn't go into specifics about the Dutch.
http://mathii.github.io/review/2015/10/21/selection-on-height-in-europe

MikeWhalen
01-21-2019, 09:20 PM
just as an anecdote

I am 6 feet and seem to be taller than most guys, lets say around 60-70% that I've met, and then the rest are taller than me, usually not by alot, 1 or 2 inches

this has been true in the 4 canadian ontario cities I have lived in...Toronto, Ottawa, Windsor and Sault ste mare and in Toronto, with many ethnic pals not of western decent

...I played university and/or semi pro football as well, in 3 of those cities and for obvious reasons, you would think those guys were taller than the norm due to the power athleticism needed for that sport, and yet I was still taller than many

what might be of interest is due to the nature of my work, there are about 200 staff where I work, most male, all law enforcement and I still am taller than most guards and inmates at 6 ft, which kind of surprises me to be honest, I would have thought in Canada, with all the benefits we have, I would have been more 'average' due to all the good nutrition, self selection issue and such

reading the various posts of folks talking about factors that help height, I would have thought that at least my work places and sports teams experiences would have pushed the general average of height up, but it seems not
I don't mean to say I tower over most, I don't, but it is noticeable the second you start to measure yourself up against them

I know for damn sure that I cannot ever fit through some of the old stone doorways you see in authentic castles and other ancient buildings, both height and width wise :)
...there is no doubt that generally, these last some generations of folks in the West at least, are way taller/bigger than a few hundred years ago
28536
(ps-stock photo off the net but this guy does not look like he himself is a very big guy, so that is a way small doorway)

anyway, interesting discussion although I really dont have a dog in the fight, but I would say height is based mostly on 3 things, in order
1-food/nutrition/healthy environment
2-personal family genetics (some families clearly have 'size' patterns or tendencies, regardless of where born and raised it seems)
3-your general 'ethnicities' (for lack of a better term, sorry if its the wrong one) genetic trend

anyway, thats my 2 cents

Mike

Bas
01-23-2019, 10:24 PM
European height may not necessarily be only a modern-day phenomenon due to Europe's high modern-day development levels. (Quality) protein consumption may have more to do with it:
https://www.livescience.com/58671-tallest-men-trace-to-paleolithic-mammoth-hunters.html

The article contains a lot of speculation on causes but is based on this paper:
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.161054

From the paper: ''Even more importantly, the unusually tall stature of Upper Paleolithic males from the Gravettian culture has been documented by archaeological findings. Dočkalova & Vančata [26] estimated a mean height of 176.3 cm in Gravettian males from Moravia (n = 15) and 182.7 cm in Gravettian males from the Central Mediterranean (n = 11).''

rms2
01-23-2019, 11:00 PM
. . .

I know for damn sure that I cannot ever fit through some of the old stone doorways you see in authentic castles and other ancient buildings, both height and width wise :)
...there is no doubt that generally, these last some generations of folks in the West at least, are way taller/bigger than a few hundred years ago
. . .

When I was in Ireland a few years ago, I had a devil of a time getting into and walking down the little hallway just to take a peak into the dungeon at Bunratty Castle. People certainly must have been short and slight back in the Middle Ages. I almost didn't go because I was afraid I wouldn't make it and would get stuck.

Celt_??
01-24-2019, 02:54 AM
While I was in the USAF in the late 1960, I was fortunate to be able to take a "Religious TDY" to the Holy Lands. The entrances to the ancient churches of Bethlehem, Jerusalem and Nazareth are hardly 4 1/2 feet tall.

Afshar
01-24-2019, 09:29 PM
In this matter I think nutrition is a more important factor than genetics. I think higher dairy intake and more important calcium intake are the main reason why the dutch tend to be taller than other populations. I recall there were studies that showed significant differences in height of children vs their dairy intake.

drobbah
01-24-2019, 09:57 PM
The Cushites are also very tall, I'm familiar with the Somalis and their average is currently about 183-184cm for the young generation born and raised here and I believe the Ogaden Somalis from Ethiopia are even taller. Note that populations that were subjected to a lot of food deprivation will require more time to attain their optimal stature so maybe the Somalis could surpass even the western Sahelians, though I'm not sure. I'm also very well acquainted with the Chadians and they're easily as tall as the Somalis.

There is no difference in height between Somalis.An Ogaden is just as tall as a Cisse,Abgaal,Habar Awal etc

The man with the biggest hand in the world at one point was an Isaaq man (Hussein Bisad) who used to be my mother's neighbour in Hargeisa pre-1988.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vybAQQ-_nzE/WPtaYLBez4I/AAAAAAAAACs/F6a8BZeWnNY7RXVAgDhMf7dZSomlIsK5wCLcB/s1600/7%2BHussain%2BBisad.jpg

rms2
01-25-2019, 12:59 AM
When I was in Galway back in 2013 I noticed that a lot of the young guys seemed very tall, like 6-3 and up. Then I noticed the same thing in Wales in 2015, with some very huge (not only tall but bulky, as well) rugby-looking types.

morganman3
01-25-2019, 02:15 AM
When I was in Galway back in 2013 I noticed that a lot of the young guys seemed very tall, like 6-3 and up. Then I noticed the same thing in Wales in 2015, with some very huge (not only tall but bulky, as well) rugby-looking types.

You tend to notice people taller than yourself, which creates a false impression of how tall the general population is. I think it is pretty accurate to say that the average height in the UK is around 5ft10, and not taller than 5ft11.

Finn
01-25-2019, 05:44 PM
In this matter I think nutrition is a more important factor than genetics. I think higher dairy intake and more important calcium intake are the main reason why the dutch tend to be taller than other populations. I recall there were studies that showed significant differences in height of children vs their dairy intake.

Could be a contribution. Otherwise the last 150 years the Dutch growth was 20 cm. But Dutch drunk 150 years ago also a big amount of milk and ate lots of cheese. And in Switzerland they consum lots of milk products too, still they are a lot smaller.

I guess itís a combination of (Steppe) genes, nutrition, welfare and natural selection....

Ruderico
01-25-2019, 06:17 PM
When I was in Ireland a few years ago, I had a devil of a time getting into and walking down the little hallway just to take a peak into the dungeon at Bunratty Castle. People certainly must have been short and slight back in the Middle Ages. I almost didn't go because I was afraid I wouldn't make it and would get stuck.

Not quite, they were shorter than modern individuals, but not too much. The following sources are a bit old, but afaik still hold true

https://news.osu.edu/men-from-early-middle-ages-were-nearly-as-tall-as-modern-people/

https://www.quora.com/How-tall-were-people-in-Medieval-times

LTG
01-25-2019, 08:01 PM
North European populations are quite a bit taller than others based on my experience and travels. The Dutch in particular were quite impressive in stature; even the women were tall compared to what you would normally observe in the UK. The Germans, English, Irish and Scots seem to be a shade shorter than the Dutch but are still tall when compared to the Indian, Arab, African and Chinese students I would see around my university campus.

I would chalk it up to underlying racial differences that were further accentuated by the animal rich diet of the Northerners.

Afshar
01-25-2019, 08:59 PM
Could be a contribution. Otherwise the last 150 years the Dutch growth was 20 cm. But Dutch drunk 150 years ago also a big amount of milk and ate lots of cheese. And in Switzerland they consum lots of milk products too, still they are a lot smaller.

I guess itís a combination of (Steppe) genes, nutrition, welfare and natural selection....

Yes nutrition is also important. Thats probably why non-european migrants in european countries grow taller than the average in their country of origin, which can be explained by the change of nutrition and welfare.

rms2
01-26-2019, 12:18 AM
You tend to notice people taller than yourself, which creates a false impression of how tall the general population is. I think it is pretty accurate to say that the average height in the UK is around 5ft10, and not taller than 5ft11.

Except that I would say that most of the guys were shorter than I am (at 6-1). I just noticed that some of the younger ones were tall, but still, as I said, most were shorter than I am.

Also I was in Amsterdam back in 2001, and I didn't notice anything exceptionally tall about the Dutch, but then again I didn't get out into the countryside.

Finn
01-26-2019, 07:24 AM
Except that I would say that most of the guys were shorter than I am (at 6-1). I just noticed that some of the younger ones were tall, but still, as I said, most were shorter than I am.

Also I was in Amsterdam back in 2001, and I didn't notice anything exceptionally tall about the Dutch, but then again I didn't get out into the countryside.

In the center of Amsterdam you see....well tourist ;)

rms2
01-26-2019, 03:03 PM
In the center of Amsterdam you see....well tourist ;)

You also see a lot of Dutch people, Finn. Come on. Tourists don't run all the shops, hotels, and other businesses. They aren't the people working in security at Schiphol Airport.

Finn
01-26-2019, 03:21 PM
You also see a lot of Dutch people, Finn. Come on. Tourists don't run all the shops, hotels, and other businesses. They aren't the people working in security at Schiphol Airport.

Yep and I know they (or we) are tall. I'm 6 feet 4. But in the city Groningen I'm really no exception.....

This is old fragment of the regional TV 10 years ago....its a pity you don't understand Dutch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TPdbeUsZZk

google translate:

GRONINGEN - Northerners are the tallest people in the world. This is shown by several studies.

Previously it was the Americans or the Scandinavians who were in charge, but the Northerners they have grown beyond. The Dutch are the longest people in the world and Northerners are the very longest.

For example, Groningen and Frisian women are on average 2.4 centimeters longer than women from the south of the country. And it also differs on average by more than 2 centimeters in men.

rms2
01-26-2019, 03:28 PM
Yep and I know they (or we) are tall. I'm 6 feet 4. But in the city Groningen I'm really no exception.....

This is old fragment of the regional TV 10 years ago....its a pity you don't understand Dutch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TPdbeUsZZk

You know how bell curves work. The exceptions are at either end of the curve. The great bulk of people don't differ from one another significantly. The Dutch bell curve is, no doubt, shifted a cm or two to the right.

In other words, the Netherlands isn't a land where literally everyone is exceptionally tall.

Like I said, I didn't notice any big differences, but, then again, I didn't leave Amsterdam. Maybe all the Dutch Watusis were hiding out in the countryside.

Finn
01-26-2019, 03:31 PM
You know how bell curves work. The exceptions are at either end of the curve. The great bulk of people don't differ from one another significantly. The Dutch bell curve is, no doubt, shifted a cm or two to the right.

In other words, the Netherlands isn't a land where literally everyone is exceptionally tall.

Like I said, I didn't notice any big differences, but, then again, I didn't leave Amsterdam. Maybe all the Dutch Watusis were hiding out in the countryside.

The average Dutchman is 1.84 meter and the Groninger and Frisian men are on average 1.86 meter. Matter of fact.

https://www.dvhn.nl/archief/Hoe-zijn-wij-de-langste-mensen-geworden-20863608.html

MitchellSince1893
01-26-2019, 03:35 PM
Yes but this is a recent phenomenon. Look at the historic chart that goes back 200 years
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5544085/amp

rms2
01-26-2019, 03:37 PM
The average Dutchman is 1.84 meter and the Groninger and Frisian are on average 1.86 meter. Matter of fact.

https://www.dvhn.nl/archief/Hoe-zijn-wij-de-langste-mensen-geworden-20863608.html

Like I said, the Dutch bell curve is shifted a bit to the right.

It wasn't noticeable when I was there. I was still taller than most and shorter than some.

What I found more noticeable was the number of people who spoke good English. I only ran into one man who couldn't speak English (a short guy), and he couldn't speak German either, because I tried that, too. But maybe he just didn't want to waste his time talking with me.

rms2
01-26-2019, 03:43 PM
Yes but this is a recent phenomenon. Look at the historic chart that goes back 200 years
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5544085/amp

Very recent evidently.

I think the influx of Latin American immigrants into the USA in recent decades is dropping the overall average height here.

This is just anecdotal, but I am constantly encountering some of those guys who, while quite sturdy, are really Hobbit sized.

Finn
01-26-2019, 03:48 PM
Yes but this is a recent phenomenon. Look at the historic chart that goes back 200 years
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5544085/amp

Yes that's the remarkable thing, so can't be just the diet, milk and cheese, because the old Dutch drank and ate that too....

MitchellSince1893
01-26-2019, 03:48 PM
As that article states, diet and wealth (ability to purchase a better diet) are the major contributors to the recent height increases for many populations.

But it also says the Dutch may have some ancient tall genes too

Finn
01-26-2019, 03:51 PM
Very recent evidently.

I think the influx of Latin American immigrants into the USA in recent decades is dropping the overall average height here.

This is just anecdotal, but I am constantly encountering some of those guys who, while quite sturdy, are really Hobbit sized.


And the drop in welfare in the US.

The Dutch have a high standard of health care, for a broad public, and pretty everyone is middle class (with such like consumption pattern= less junkfood).

Dutch immigrations are getting also taller than in their previous homeland (of their parents).

Finn
01-26-2019, 03:52 PM
As that article states, diet and wealth (ability to purchase a better diet) are the major contributors to the recent height increases for many populations.

But it also says the Dutch may have some ancient tall genes too

North Bell Beakers Mitch :biggrin1:

rms2
01-26-2019, 04:04 PM
And the drop in welfare in the US.

Baloney. The standard of living has risen pretty constantly over the years.

The drop has come in the proportion of people of northern European descent versus those descended from fairly recent Third World immigrants who tend to be short.



The Dutch have a high standard of health care, for a broad public, and pretty everyone is middle class (with such like consumption pattern= less junkfood).

Dutch immigrations are getting also taller than in their previous homeland (of their parents).

The Netherlands is a small country that (for now) can afford to temporarily dally with socialistic programs, especially since it hasn't had to pay for its own military defense for quite awhile now. The Netherlands, for example, contributes only 1.7% of its GDP to NATO, well below the agreed upon 2%.

It is fortunate indeed that free market capitalism is so successful in the Netherlands and elsewhere that its largess can prop up a little socialist taint here and there.

uintah106
01-26-2019, 04:13 PM
My Great-Grandfather immigrated to the U.S. from Lolland DK, He was 6'1". Danes are right behind the Dutch in height I've read.

Finn
01-26-2019, 04:48 PM
Baloney. The standard of living has risen pretty constantly over the years.

The drop has come in the proportion of people of northern European descent versus those descended from fairly recent Third World immigrants who tend to be short.

The Netherlands is a small country that (for now) can afford to temporarily dally with socialistic programs, especially since it hasn't had to pay for its own military defense for quite awhile now. The Netherlands, for example, contributes only 1.7% of its GDP to NATO, well below the agreed upon 2%.

It is fortunate indeed that free market capitalism is so successful in the Netherlands and elsewhere that its largess can prop up a little socialist taint here and there.

I bet there is a correlation between a broad middle class in a nation and length! See indeed also the Scandic nations (uintah106).

In this respect the welfare can be enhanced but the middle class could be smaller. The hourglass model.

Last year I saw a documentary about some part of he US (could be the Appalachians) were there were tents set up, people stayed in their cars a night before and voluntary medics aided this people from the morning till deep the evening. People with completely rotten teeth etc. I thought this was only in developing countries the case but no....such things hinder length too.

Small country or not I guess that we have the fortune to be an old trading country so we had already some assets to stay strong in a globalizing world. And there were lots of investments from healthcare to education (my sons 14 year learn besides Dutch about 5 languages for example). Social democratic or not in the end the social climate and prosperity is better.

In other words: the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" .... that contributes to growth! ;)

But like the difference between the US in the midst twentieth century and now....this is never taken for sure!

ADW_1981
01-26-2019, 05:03 PM
I bet there is a correlation between a broad middle class in a nation and length! See indeed also the Scandic nations (uintah106).

In this respect the welfare can be enhanced but the middle class could be smaller. The hourglass model.

Last year I saw a documentary about some part of he US (could be the Appalachians) were there were tents set up, people stayed in their cars a night before and voluntary medics aided this people from the morning till deep the evening. People with completely rotten teeth etc. I thought this was only in developing countries the case but no....such things hinder length too.

Small country or not I guess that we have the fortune to be an old trading country so we had already some assets to stay strong in a globalizing world. And there were lots of investments from healthcare to education (my sons 14 year learn besides Dutch about 5 languages for example). Social democratic or not in the end the social climate and prosperity is better.

In other words: the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" .... that contributes to growth! ;)

But like the difference between the US in the midst twentieth century and now....this is never taken for sure!

You can't compare an apple and an orange. Completely different histories. Most of the small European countries were sheltered from some of the struggles that the New World faced, and some were not applicable at all. Give the EU another 15 years, let's see how far it goes, and come back to us then ;) The global climate isn't looking any friendlier, nor are the protests.

rms2
01-26-2019, 05:13 PM
. . .

Last year I saw a documentary about some part of he US (could be the Appalachians) were there were tents set up, people stayed in their cars a night before and voluntary medics aided this people from the morning till deep the evening. People with completely rotten teeth etc. I thought this was only in developing countries the case but no....such things hinder length too . . .

What documentary was that, Finn?

There are homeless people in the USA; most of them have mental problems and at one time would have been housed in institutions, but in the 1960s and 1970s lawsuits brought by organizations like the ACLU made institutionalizing such people much more difficult.

But homelessness is hardly a general condition in the USA. It is generally most frequent in places with the best weather and the most generous social welfare programs, like California.

The documentary is a well-worn propaganda vehicle.

Finn
01-26-2019, 05:25 PM
You can't compare an apple and an orange. Completely different histories. Most of the small European countries were sheltered from some of the struggles that the New World faced, and some were not applicable at all. Give the EU another 15 years, let's see how far it goes, and come back to us then ;) The global climate isn't looking any friendlier, nor are the protests.

Of course you can't compare small and large countries. Large countries like the US are big players, influencers, small countries have only the choice to be agile. Smart choices. Take for example that the Netherlands are the second exporteur of agricultural products in the world. Because the country is small this means that the agricultural business is extreme effective, high end precise. And it's also a matter of other choices. The US spends more in prisons than in schools. In the end this is a self fulfilling prophecy. Around the midst of the previous century all American presidents, even the republicans, mentioned the common good ('ask not....'). Nowadays this has gone....and changed for broker language. ;)

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-us-spending-on-prisons-grew-at-three-times-rate-of-school-spending-report-2016-7?international=true&r=US&IR=T

Finn
01-26-2019, 05:32 PM
What documentary was that, Finn?

There are homeless people in the USA; most of them have mental problems and at one time would have been housed in institutions, but in the 1960s and 1970s lawsuits brought by organizations like the ACLU made institutionalizing such people much more difficult.

But homelessness is hardly a general condition in the USA. It is generally most frequent in places with the best weather and the most generous social welfare programs, like California.

The documentary is a well-worn propaganda vehicle.

Yes the media all lies ;)

The fact is that you have large parts in the cities and also on the countryside, that are poor, uneducated etc etc. declutched! A loss in social and economic perspective.....

But :focus:

alan
01-26-2019, 05:36 PM
I know it’s mostly diet and environment because my own family line has shown 3-4 inches increase each generation across 140ys as they have slowly gone up the social scale and Europe built a kinder post-war civilisation based on the idea that children should not suffer too greatly from their parents income status as they did not choose their r parents and therefore re the basics of housing, food, medicine, education etc must be universal and free at the point of need. That was 5ft 4 to 5ft 7 to 5ft 11 to 6ft 2 in four generations. There has actually also been a huge height 3 inch leap in the last 15ys judging by the young adults around with every 2nd dude seems to be over 6ft when they were mostly around 5ft 8 or 9 25-30ys ago. I think that is because they grew up during a unique economic boom 1998-2009. This is very sudden and only been apparent for the last few years. I’ve even seen this in poor areas. V tall women are suddenly apparent too

alan
01-26-2019, 05:51 PM
Average height is kind of meaningless as older generations who were much smaller drag it down a couple of inches. If I had to guess the modal height of young adults in Northern Ireland today I would say it’s likely 5ft 11 for men and 5ft 7 for women. But 30ys ago I’d say it was 2 inches less.

alan
01-26-2019, 06:06 PM
Yes the media all lies ;)

The fact is that you have large parts in the cities and also on the countryside, that are poor, uneducated etc etc. declutched! A loss in social and economic perspective.....

But :focus:


I don’t know about Holland but the uk was shockingly poor if you were not in the lucky top 10%. My dad was by no means especially poor (probably considered upper working class) but grew up in the 1930s and 40s in a two roomed flat with 6 people in it, outside toilet etc. That was normal. What I don’t by think Americans realise if that pre WW2 there was not a vast fairly comfortable lower middle class in the uk and much of Europe . There was a bunch of guys in top hats and bowlers and 90 odd% were on terribly low incomes in Dickensian poverty. That was how raw capitalism felt in Europe. Social mobility was v sluggish. When the soldiers came home from WW2 they decided that a society where a few parasites got wealthy sitting on their arses on the labour of 90odd % who they happily kept in poverty while they lived in luxury off the backs of the workers had to end so they kicked out Churchill (an aristocrat son of a Duke) and voted in the Labour Party. The European experience of capitalism befits it was mitigated by social democracy was not a good one. America was different and the wealth spread wider

alan
01-26-2019, 06:17 PM
What documentary was that, Finn?

There are homeless people in the USA; most of them have mental problems and at one time would have been housed in institutions, but in the 1960s and 1970s lawsuits brought by organizations like the ACLU made institutionalizing such people much more difficult.

But homelessness is hardly a general condition in the USA. It is generally most frequent in places with the best weather and the most generous social welfare programs, like California.

The documentary is a well-worn propaganda vehicle.
In the uk Thatcher closed most of the institutions as a cost cutting measure. I reckon 100s of people have been murdeeed by people who would have been in secure mental institutions before that foolish move

MitchellSince1893
01-26-2019, 06:22 PM
Many of us have seen pictures where a child from an impoverished country is adopted and grows up in a wealthy country, returns to his home town and towers over his siblings and neighbors.

Kind of off topic but this story about Saroo, the 5 year old Indian boy who wanders on to a train, falls asleep and gets off hundreds of miles from his home having no idea where he came from. He is lost, ends up in orphanage, finally ends up with a family in Australia. He spent years looking at google earth images trying to find his home and family.

His story was made into a movie. A clip from the movie Lion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQN0os7heH0

Lupriac
01-26-2019, 09:01 PM
Height usually increases over the course of time due to diet and environmental factors. But I have noticed that in the Middle East height have decreased over the last 70 years or so. My maternal grandfather (b. 1917) was 193 cm i.e 6'4" and my paternal great great grandfather (b. 1885) was 185 cm or 6'1". My paternal great grandfather was approx. 179 cm or 5'10.5" and my grandfather was 177 cm or 5'9.5", and my father is 175 cm or 5'9". Now I am currently 173 cm or 5'8.2" but I still have some time to grow considering I am not done of growing and my epiphyseal plates still haven't sealed.

oz
01-26-2019, 09:36 PM
The stats about Dinaric people being some of the tallest in the world on average is no myth for sure. Herzegovinians, Dalmatians and Montenegrins are taller than me on average they're 6+ft. Being around Bosnians all my life particularly northern Bosnians they're about the same as me on average around 179cm. Some are shorter and some are definitely taller like my brother in law who's about 6'3 and he's from north Bosnia from the same town.

Here in the states I think the average white guy is about my height. It's rare that I run into dudes who are well over 6 feet tall.

As far as Europe goes I always heard about Scandinavians being pretty tall on average and the Dutch apparently are as well.

rms2
01-26-2019, 09:46 PM
Yes the media all lies . . . ;)


That's actually a smarter approach than a naive trust in every fricking documentary one sees.

Really, Finn, how old are you?

Do you honestly think the USA is filled with people sleeping in their cars and going without adequate medical care?

rms2
01-26-2019, 09:53 PM
In the uk Thatcher closed most of the institutions as a cost cutting measure. I reckon 100s of people have been murdeeed by people who would have been in secure mental institutions before that foolish move

I wonder if that was by choice. Here Reagan gets the blame for the same thing when in reality it was organizations like the ACLU and their lawsuits that forced the change. It just happened when Reagan was Governor of California, so he got the blame there, and it seems homeless psychos flock to California because much of the year one can sleep out in the open at night.

Here where I live, beginning in late autumn, if you sleep out at night, you're not likely to wake up. That kind of puts a limit on the number of homeless.

rms2
01-26-2019, 09:58 PM
I don’t know about Holland but the uk was shockingly poor if you were not in the lucky top 10%. My dad was by no means especially poor (probably considered upper working class) but grew up in the 1930s and 40s in a two roomed flat with 6 people in it, outside toilet etc. That was normal. What I don’t by think Americans realise if that pre WW2 there was not a vast fairly comfortable lower middle class in the uk and much of Europe . There was a bunch of guys in top hats and bowlers and 90 odd% were on terribly low incomes in Dickensian poverty. That was how raw capitalism felt in Europe. Social mobility was v sluggish. When the soldiers came home from WW2 they decided that a society where a few parasites got wealthy sitting on their arses on the labour of 90odd % who they happily kept in poverty while they lived in luxury off the backs of the workers had to end so they kicked out Churchill (an aristocrat son of a Duke) and voted in the Labour Party. The European experience of capitalism befits it was mitigated by social democracy was not a good one. America was different and the wealth spread wider

Did you actually pass economics in school, alan?

You need to spend some time watching a few old Milton Friedman videos and perhaps reading Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

Funny to see you making the same zero-sum mistakes and sloganeering like socialists.

Finn
01-26-2019, 10:05 PM
I wonder if that was by choice. Here Reagan gets the blame for the same thing when in reality it was organizations like the ACLU and their lawsuits that forced the change. It just happened when Reagan was Governor of California, so he got the blame there, and it seems homeless psychos flock to California because much of the year one can sleep out in the open at night.

Here where I live, beginning in late autumn, if you sleep out at night, you're not likely to wake up. That kind of puts a limit on the number of homeless.

This in article about the documentary I was talking about....this one is even about your homestate.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/nov/23/enormous-pop-up-clinic-trying-bridge-americas-health-divide
And indeed the Appalachian I rememeber it well....

rms2
01-26-2019, 10:13 PM
This in article about the documentary I was talking about....this one is even about your homestate.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/nov/23/enormous-pop-up-clinic-trying-bridge-americas-health-divide
And indeed the Appalachian I rememeber it well....

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see the name of the documentary or who produced it.

The Guardian is pretty well known to be left of center (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/).

There are some poor people here, yes. There are even homeless people, yes.

We have states that have more people in them than the Netherlands does.

If you have freedom, you don't have equality of outcome. If you have equality of outcome, you don't have freedom, and everyone is equally miserable.

rms2
01-26-2019, 10:32 PM
Some of you are in real need of the video series, Free to Choose, by Nobel Prize-winning economist, Milton Friedman. It's a little dated, but still well worth the time spent watching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3N2sNnGwa4

drobbah
01-26-2019, 11:23 PM
Height usually increases over the course of time due to diet and environmental factors. But I have noticed that in the Middle East height have decreased over the last 70 years or so. My maternal grandfather (b. 1917) was 193 cm i.e 6'4" and my paternal great great grandfather (b. 1885) was 185 cm or 6'1". My paternal great grandfather was approx. 179 cm or 5'10.5" and my grandfather was 177 cm or 5'9.5", and my father is 175 cm or 5'9". Now I am currently 173 cm or 5'8.2" but I still have some time to grow considering I am not done of growing and my epiphyseal plates still haven't sealed.

Levantines seem to be much larger than other middle easterners in frame and height.The Saudis & Yemenis from my personal observations average around 5ft6/7 and they also tend to be skinnier than levantines.

Finn
01-27-2019, 07:52 AM
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see the name of the documentary or who produced it.

The Guardian is pretty well known to be left of center (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-guardian/).

There are some poor people here, yes. There are even homeless people, yes.

We have states that have more people in them than the Netherlands does.

If you have freedom, you don't have equality of outcome. If you have equality of outcome, you don't have freedom, and everyone is equally miserable.

That documentary was something of a national broadcasting service (bad translation?).

Nevertheless the moment I saw it was from the Guardian I could guess the comment, so predictable!

But it was not an opinion of the Guardian but a report.....But that's the state of the US these days...

The Guardian...ok yes wrong....we don't look any further (since I was 16 I read the newspapers and magazines form left to right).

The size doesn't always have a relationship with choices, if the US wants the 'medical pop ups' for the poor would be soon gone. Or not?

I prefer to live in a country were there is some eye for the public good, a middle class as broad as possible, here is not everyone 'even miserable'.

Let's look to the outcomes through the eyes of the founding fathers of the US, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Look at the top ten (for the sake of you I took Forbes and the World Economic forum):

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/these-are-the-happiest-countries-in-the-world/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncanmadden/2018/03/27/ranked-the-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world-in-2018/#292a5a7373e9

The happiest are the countries with an eye for the common good. And last but not least they have the longest populations too ;)

Finn
01-27-2019, 07:56 AM
Some of you are in real need of the video series, Free to Choose, by Nobel Prize-winning economist, Milton Friedman. It's a little dated, but still well worth the time spent watching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3N2sNnGwa4


I can recommend Frank Ankersmit classic liberal:


He sees Neoliberalism as a return to Medieval feudalism: both wish to entrust public competences and responsibilities to (semi-)private hands. Whereas liberalism was born at the end of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th centuries from the rejection of feudalism. The Anglo-Saxon countries could forget about this, since they remained outside the grip of the French Revolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Ankersmit

https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=1258

Lupriac
01-27-2019, 09:03 AM
Levantines seem to be much larger than other middle easterners in frame and height.The Saudis & Yemenis from my personal observations average around 5ft6/7 and they also tend to be skinnier than levantines.

Most teenagers currently are topping the older generation by a lot, so I would say the average will increase by a lot to some where around 180cm from my observation in real life. I have also noticed something about Levantines, most of us are late bloomer unless it is the norm here. Puberty usually starts (for most kids) here around age 13-16 unlike other populations, I've heard among Europeans and North Americans puberty usually starts around 12, correct if I am wrong. Not hitting puberty at age 15 is quite normal here, actually my own cousin hit puberty when he was 18 and was able to build up some 12 cm in 1 year.

rms2
01-27-2019, 01:27 PM
Please delete.

rms2
01-27-2019, 02:04 PM
That documentary was something of a national broadcasting service (bad translation?).

Nevertheless the moment I saw it was from the Guardian I could guess the comment, so predictable!

Citing left wing sources is also predictable.



But it was not an opinion of the Guardian but a report.....But that's the state of the US these days...

Hardly.



The Guardian...ok yes wrong....we don't look any further (since I was 16 I read the newspapers and magazines form left to right).

The size doesn't always have a relationship with choices, if the US wants the 'medical pop ups' for the poor would be soon gone. Or not?

No one here is talking about completely eliminating the social safety net or of cutting the poor off from medical care. Nor are thousands of people sleeping in their cars or dying in the streets.



I prefer to live in a country were there is some eye for the public good, a middle class as broad as possible, here is not everyone 'even miserable'.

I think the common good is best served by equality of opportunity rather than the redistribution of wealth by powerful government bureaucrats wielding onerous regulations and deciding who wins and who loses.



Let's look to the outcomes through the eyes of the founding fathers of the US, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Look at the top ten (for the sake of you I took Forbes and the World Economic forum):

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/these-are-the-happiest-countries-in-the-world/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/duncanmadden/2018/03/27/ranked-the-10-happiest-countries-in-the-world-in-2018/#292a5a7373e9

The happiest are the countries with an eye for the common good. And last but not least they have the longest populations too ;)

Those kinds of "studies" are fluff and depend on who is doing the measuring and what his ideological agenda is.

Comparing small countries with relatively homogeneous populations to very large countries with heterogeneous populations just doesn't make sense.

It will be interesting to see how places like the Netherlands fare in the long run.

Finn
01-27-2019, 02:12 PM
Citing left wing sources is also predictable.



Hardly.



No one here is talking about completely eliminating the social safety net or of cutting the poor off from medical care. Nor are thousands of people sleeping in their cars or dying in the streets.



I think the common good is best served by equality of opportunity rather than the redistribution of wealth by powerful government bureaucrats wielding onerous regulations and deciding who wins and who loses.



Those kinds of "studies" are fluff and depend on who is doing the measuring and what his ideological agenda is.

Comparing small countries with relatively homogeneous populations to very large countries with heterogeneous populations just doesn't make sense.

It will be interesting to see how places like the Netherlands fare in the long run.

Ok I miss the following video: Ayn Rand.....

The preference for the big ego, the killer instinct (dixit Trump), the winner takes it all...the loser has to.

The effect: frustration.

And therefore: drugs/alcohol, painkillers and anti-depressiva abuse (in that is the US absolutely nr 1. worldwide)

Related to the topic on this way, combined with a selective health care, the health drops in the US and they end up like obese dwarfs ;) My prediction.

rms2
01-27-2019, 02:35 PM
. . .

Related to the topic on this way, combined with a selective health care, the health drops in the US and they end up like obese dwarfs ;) My prediction.

We'll see. I'll keep my predictions for the Netherlands to myself, but they're not all positive.

Eterne
01-27-2019, 02:38 PM
Just on the point about about comparing data like "happiness" responses or anti depressant use to estimate welfare, there are some difficulties in that.

Culturally, happiness is way differently treated by different cultures - I don't really think that the Japanese are miserable folk, even though they don't show up the list of top 50 happiest countries. Likewise striving Americans might rate their happiness lower than phelgmatic North European folk, because of differences in ideals and social norms rather than achieved things. ("Happiness" responses is probably worth looking for the broad correlation with income, but it's not very useful to try and settle "Who's system is the best?" type things between developed countries.)

Similarly with anti-depressants, you have to remember that Americans, both rich and poor, consume waaaay more healthcare than people in the Netherlands. (Sometimes to bad effect - e.g. opioids).

(People who know the statistics know the US is proven to have high levels of healthcare consumption across the board in every sector and that this explains the "high" US healthcare cost, almost nothing to do with higher prices or "private healthcare inefficiency", and that there's not particularly more concentration of US healthcare consumption among high income folk than in Europe, so it's genuinely Americans receiving more healthcare, not just a few richer folk.)

Finn
01-27-2019, 02:48 PM
We'll see. I'll keep my predictions for the Netherlands to myself, but they're not all positive.

We will stand tall! :biggrin1:

alan
01-27-2019, 02:57 PM
Did you actually pass economics in school, alan?

You need to spend some time watching a few old Milton Friedman videos and perhaps reading Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

Funny to see you making the same zero-sum mistakes and sloganeering like socialists.

In Europe social democracy is considered centrist. Basically parties who are capitalist but believe in mitigating itís worst aspects-which is entirely possible in solid western economies. Full blown old fashioned Marxist influenced socialism of the state controlled command economy is fringe and few wavy that. Personally I think all western countries are different shade of social democratic, even mainstream right leaning parties. So itís mostly a matter of degree than ideology. Itís also about spreading risk. Iíd happily pay for people down on their luck/health while I can so the net is there for me when I hit bad times. The total cost of national health system is a great deal cheaper than the total cost of insurance for a whole nation. The insurers are absolutely ripping off people. And the results are better with Holland top and and the uk not far behind in the large table of best system while also being the best value for money too.

Finn
01-27-2019, 03:01 PM
Just on the point about about comparing data like "happiness" responses or anti depressant use to estimate welfare, there are some difficulties in that.

Culturally, happiness is way differently treated by different cultures - I don't really think that the Japanese are miserable folk, even though they don't show up the list of top 50 happiest countries. Likewise striving Americans might rate their happiness lower than phelgmatic North European folk, because of differences in ideals and social norms rather than achieved things. ("Happiness" responses is probably worth looking for the broad correlation with income, but it's not very useful to try and settle "Who's system is the best?" type things between developed countries.)

Similarly with anti-depressants, you have to remember that Americans, both rich and poor, consume waaaay more healthcare than people in the Netherlands. (Sometimes to bad effect - e.g. opioids).

(People who know the statistics know the US is proven to have high levels of healthcare consumption across the board in every sector and that this explains the "high" US healthcare cost, almost nothing to do with higher prices or "private healthcare inefficiency", and that there's not particularly more concentration of US healthcare consumption among high income folk than in Europe, so it's genuinely Americans receiving more healthcare, not just a few richer folk.)

Thanks for the nuance. Japan is the only country that as a specific word for working till death....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karōshi
Stiff upper lip in the overdrive....no wonder that the wel being rate is lower (at least through my NW European eyes ;)

Anyone any information about the growth of the Japanese....just out of curiosity.

alan
01-27-2019, 03:05 PM
Some areas just don’t work well if you apply the market to them. The US has both the most expensive and worst performing healthcare system in the western world. Basically health company shareholders are lining their pocket at the people’s expense and providing a poor product to do that https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/372828/

rms2
01-27-2019, 03:06 PM
We will stand tall! :biggrin1:

Many of your ancestors were short and stocky; God only knows what your descendants will be, if anyone but He even remembers who the Dutch were.

Finn
01-27-2019, 03:13 PM
Many of your ancestors were short and stocky; God only knows what your descendants will be, if anyone but He even remembers who the Dutch were.

There was a time that the US stood for 'fresh and striving'.....now it's changed for grumpy, dystopian views..... keep them oversea.

End of discussion!

rms2
01-27-2019, 03:13 PM
Some areas just don’t work well if you apply the market to them. The US has both the most expensive and worst performing healthcare system in the western world. Basically health company shareholders are lining their pocket at the people’s expense and providing a poor product to do that https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/372828/

You and Finn have the same habit of citing left wing publications.

So, I'll follow that practice and cite a left wing source myself: N.H.S. Overwhelmed in Britain, Leaving Patients to Wait (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-health-service.html)

rms2
01-27-2019, 03:17 PM
There was a time that the US stood for 'fresh and striving'.....now it's changed for grumpy, dystopian views..... keep them oversea.

End of discussion!

Good idea.

We certainly have our share of problems here, no doubt.

Meanwhile, the Netherlands is a paradise of exceptionally tall people, most of whom I missed seeing when I was there in 2001. But, like I said, I didn't leave Amsterdam, which must be where your super-advanced healthcare system quarantines all its less-than-godlike citizens. ;)

alan
01-27-2019, 03:24 PM
Thanks for the nuance. Japan is the only country that as a specific word for working till death....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karōshi
Stiff upper lip in the overdrive....no wonder that the wel being rate is lower (at least through my NW European eyes ;)

Anyone any information about the growth of the Japanese....just out of curiosity.

Work ethic gone turbo ! Personally I think the Far East education system and workaholic adult life would have made me suicidal. I’d rather be happy and not have fancy trinkets than exhausted and have no spare time. I hope Europe never changes and keeps seeing spare time as vital for happiness. I would be v unhappy if I had the v low amount of annual paid leave of some countries. Uk, french and Scandinavian full time workers are entitled to 28-30 days a year.

alan
01-27-2019, 03:35 PM
Thing about politics is if right and left wing people wrote down a list of the 10 most important things they want for society, I bet 8 or 9 would be identical. It’s not a difference of values but simply of methodology to achieve the same basic goals - plenty good jobs, full employment, good economy, good education for all, equal app, reduce Poverty, good law and order/justice for all, access to good health, good life in your non earning years at start and the endof life, happiness, peace, freedom of speech etc

Finn
01-27-2019, 03:37 PM
Good idea.

We certainly have our share of problems here, no doubt.

Meanwhile, the Netherlands is a paradise of exceptionally tall people, most of whom I missed seeing when I was there in 2001. But, like I said, I didn't leave Amsterdam, which must be where your super-advanced healthcare system quarantines all its less-than-godlike citizens. ;)

Beter kieken!

No paradise certainly not. But the underlying neoliberal, greed is good message, and more is pure ideological. So I wanted to show that other people/nations make other choices and that leads (for them) to more or less satisfyin solutions.....and prosperity. But no.... everyone has to follow the Friedman/Rand dogma's....that's the annoying thing. Because no one has made clear that for the (common) people things turned out right this way.... Nothing more nothing less. Live and let live!

Bye!

alan
01-27-2019, 03:40 PM
I’ve never felt so much at home in any country outside the isles as in Holland. So far it’s the most isles-like continental place culturally I’ve visited. I did not feel like i was in a foreign country. I’ve never been to Scandinavia though. I’ve met a few and Danes also felt v similar to isles people culturally. Norwegians and Swedes seem less so but it’s a small sample!

Eterne
01-27-2019, 05:57 PM
Work ethic gone turbo ! Personally I think the Far East education system and workaholic adult life would have made me suicidal.

Though Japan having a high level of annual hours employed actually would've been relevant in the 1990s (https://i.imgur.com/CgpLLQ0.png)... but in 2014 (https://i.imgur.com/BXdjKQj.png), the annual Japanese working week was about 60 hours higher than the UK or Spain, which works out to about a about a paltry 1 hour a week.

UK and Spain being about the middle of the European pack, and Japan about where Italy is, less far from the middle than Ireland (https://i.imgur.com/XVSRQXV.png) with about 2 hours more per week or the Visegrad group. This is "per person engaged", so not affected by unemployed people or the like.

East Asian countries do look like they tend to have higher levels of intensity in work weeks, at early points in economic transition, but it's a bit of an open question about if this persists. Singapore and Hong Kong seem to have gone down a route where they have very high levels of hours relative to their GDP per capita, and even more so relative to the actual consumption and living standards of the people... but South Korea seems to follow a typical path, and I suspect if you looked at world cities like London, you'd also see a pretty high workaholic culture.

More here: https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours

(That's just one estimate but the Our World In Data people are pretty good. Another estimate is like this from 2011 (https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011/04/12/business/economy/economix-12oecdwork/economix-12oecdwork-custom1.jpg) - where Japanese people do come out at the high end, but generally there's more evenness overall as the high hours spent at jobs in paid work in some economies are evened out by high hours spent in unpaid work in other economies. You substitute more hours in work not always for more hours in leisure and spare time but more unpaid work in reuse, cleaning, making and maintaining things).

rms2
01-27-2019, 07:00 PM
I’ve never felt so much at home in any country outside the isles as in Holland . . .

I enjoyed Amsterdam and thought it was nice, but I didn't go anywhere else in the Netherlands.

When all this talk of the Dutch being exceptionally tall began, my first thought was, "Wow, I didn't really see any such thing in Amsterdam when I was there". I had the temerity to mention that in this thread, thus drawing Finn's patriotic welfare state ire.

Anyway, if I ever go back, I'll be sure to look for tall people . . . and for the glow of unparalleled happiness and well being. :biggrin1:

NixYO
01-27-2019, 07:45 PM
I’ve never felt so much at home in any country outside the isles as in Holland. So far it’s the most isles-like continental place culturally I’ve visited. I did not feel like i was in a foreign country. I’ve never been to Scandinavia though. I’ve met a few and Danes also felt v similar to isles people culturally. Norwegians and Swedes seem less so but it’s a small sample!
Interesting observation! Yes, Danes strike me as being much more continental culturally than Peninsular Scandinavians. Most of the Norman conquerors were, as far as I know, Danes with some Norwegian, Scanian and Geatian companions.

alan
01-27-2019, 10:14 PM
I enjoyed Amsterdam and thought it was nice, but I didn't go anywhere else in the Netherlands.

When all this talk of the Dutch being exceptionally tall began, my first thought was, "Wow, I didn't really see any such thing in Amsterdam when I was there". I had the temerity to mention that in this thread, thus drawing Finn's patriotic welfare state ire.

Anyway, if I ever go back, I'll be sure to look for tall people . . . and for the glow of unparalleled happiness and well being. :biggrin1:

I thought the same. I am 6ft 2 and I didnt notice that they were especially giant. Tall but nothing really crazy. It seemed to me that there were a lot of people around the 5ft 11 - 6ft 2 mark rather than an average made up of short to giant people. Its almost like, rather than becoming giants, they have drastically reduced the shorter stature element and so pushed the average up.

rms2
01-27-2019, 10:29 PM
Yeah, it just wasn't noticeable, at least not to me. I noticed other things, like the widespread ability of the people to speak English, which made things really easy and pleasant.

Like I said, I am 6-1, and it seemed to me things were normal: I didn't feel like a short guy. Most people were shorter than I am, but some were taller.

I thought their metro trains were nice.

Finn
01-28-2019, 08:47 AM
I thought the same. I am 6ft 2 and I didnt notice that they were especially giant. Tall but nothing really crazy. It seemed to me that there were a lot of people around the 5ft 11 - 6ft 2 mark rather than an average made up of short to giant people. Its almost like, rather than becoming giants, they have drastically reduced the shorter stature element and so pushed the average up.

You are all invited not to Amsterdam....but to the tallest and best alternative: Groningen!! I will guide you.....

According to CNN this month (ok CNN Rms2 hahahah :behindsofa: )


Young and hip, Groningen is a winning alternative to Amsterdam. The canals and classic Dutch buildings are all in evidence, but without the bustling hordes of tourists. The bike is king here, with the majority of journeys taken on two wheels.

The routes are flat and easy, so hire one and head off for an explore. Clamber to the top of the Martini Tower, take a stroll around the Noorderplantsoen park and grab brunch at achingly cool Bakkerij Blanche.


https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/europe-best-places-to-visit/index.html

Welcome!

jdean
01-28-2019, 07:45 PM
If I come across tall blond women I assume they are Scandinavian, and usually I'm right : )

But, touching on the health issues, wouldn't longevity be a better measure of national health and AFAIK Italy and Japan normally rank highest in this regard but neither are tall nations ?

jdean
01-28-2019, 08:02 PM
Mildly funny story, back in my early 20s I was dating an East German girl who was near as dammit the same hight as me (6'). One night we were crossing a busy rd at Clapham Common when some boy racer nearly ran us over, being somewhat younger and a lot more impetuous I stuck my finger up at him as we walked off (arm in arm). Anyway this apparently upset his feelings a lot more than was necessary as he pulled his car up short, leapt out and challenged me to come back over whilst calling me a short arse, which I found somewhat amusing but it was only later that it occurred to my that the only point of reference he had to my hight was Zuza : )

CamulogŤne Rix
01-28-2019, 08:12 PM
Yeah, it just wasn't noticeable, at least not to me. I noticed other things, like the widespread ability of the people to speak English, which made things really easy and pleasant.

Like I said, I am 6-1, and it seemed to me things were normal: I didn't feel like a short guy. Most people were shorter than I am, but some were taller.

I thought their metro trains were nice.

I'm 6 foot 1 inch too, which is rather tall in France.

rms2
01-29-2019, 01:08 AM
I've got a cousin who is 6-7, but that's on my mom's side, where even the women are tall (many of them six footers themselves).

My Y-chromosome second great grandfather was called "a giant" in at least one record, but I don't know how tall he actually was.

JerryS.
01-29-2019, 01:45 AM
never mind

jdean
01-29-2019, 09:08 AM
I've got a cousin who is 6-7, but that's on my mom's side, where even the women are tall (many of them six footers themselves).

My Y-chromosome second great grandfather was called "a giant" in at least one record, but I don't know how tall he actually was.

My paternal great grandfather was tall, at least in comparison with his contemporaries but seeing as he lived in a small Welsh mining community the rest of them might not have been particularly big : )

There's a group photograph of the local Rugby club with everybody wearing their Sunday best, usual thing, front row sat on a bench, those behind on chairs and the final row stood on a bench, then there's my great grandfather stood to the side of those on the bench and still taller : )

Ruderico
01-29-2019, 09:56 AM
Well, well, look at all you fancy pants who are over 6 feet tall. I'm just 174cm (ID) and yet I tower above nearly everyone in my family, especially the previous generation most of whom are ~10cm shorter than I am

jdean
01-29-2019, 11:20 AM
Well, well, look at all you fancy pants who are over 6 feet tall. I'm just 174cm (ID) and yet I tower above nearly everyone in my family, especially the previous generation most of whom are ~10cm shorter than I am

At 6' I consider myself average hight for Britain, certainly I don't feel tall but I'm taller than all my relatives on my mother's side but shorter than most on my father's side.

However I was very short when growing up (obviously : ) since I suddenly stopped growing at about 11 and didn't start again until I was 15 by which time I has the second shortest person in my year and the same hight as a lad in the year above who clearly suffered from some sort of dwarfism.

alexfritz
01-29-2019, 12:12 PM
182.3cm tall/short according to military muster reminiscing back in school part of the masses some taller some shorter in local basketball team def one of the shortest in military many by a head taller bulk on eyelevel and just few shorter; in the bloodrelated family the women(german side) tend to be quite tall my aunt is almost as tall as me and a few female cousins are taller than me and overall not much difference to the older generation(s), italian side the younger/my generation def taller than the older generations oldest male cousin for example much taller than me and my older brother(inturn also taller than me);

JerryS.
01-29-2019, 03:44 PM
182.3cm tall/short according to military mustering reminiscing back in school part of the masses some taller some shorter in local basketball team def one of the shortest in military many by a head taller bulk on eyelevel and just few shorter; in the bloodrelated family the women(german side) tend to be quite tall my aunt is almost as tall as me and a few female cousins are taller than me and overall not much difference to the older generation(s), italian side the younger/my generation def taller than the older generations oldest male cousin for example much taller than me and my older brother(inturn also taller than me);

I'm a mixed bag as my flags show. I am 6'04" which I figure comes from the North Sea region. However, my off the boat south Italian great grandfather was 6' [according to his 1921 passport] which is very tall for a Calabrese of his generation.

alan
01-30-2019, 12:17 AM
I think there will be a shock when Irish height is looked at in demographic slices because there is a generation now in their teens to mid 20s who are MUCH taller on average than people in their 40s and 50s now. Seriously ive never seen such a sudden and drastic leap in height as ive seen in the last few years. They seem to be about 3 inches taller than when I was their age 25-30 years ago. Until a few years ago I at 6ft 2 was definitely much taller than average by Irish standards. Now compared to young adults I am much closer to average. I would guess most of this generation of tall people were born between 1995 and 2000 which placed their childhood and early teens in the Celtic Tiger boom years. Its across class boundaries because ive seen a whole groups of young adult friends who are all over 6ft in quite poor areas. I had a strange experience of standing in a fish and chip shop and I was the smallest of the 6 men in the shop. I do think though that height maxes out after several sustained generations of good diet and environment. I cant see any country ever exceeding the current tallest northern European countries average of c. 6ft for men. If the height increase was constant with each generation of good feeding, we would have seen it already in upper class families who have been wealthy for many centuries. _

alan
01-30-2019, 12:23 AM
I never think of height in metric measurements but I just checked and I am 188cm.

JMcB
01-31-2019, 07:04 PM
Well, well, look at all you fancy pants who are over 6 feet tall. I'm just 174cm (ID) and yet I tower above nearly everyone in my family, especially the previous generation most of whom are ~10cm shorter than I am

Now we’re talking, finally a man who’s my height, 5’8 and change. In my case, I’d have to say the cause was genetic, not environmental. As my father was 5’11 and my brother is 6’1 and my brother and I grew up in the same environment. I’ve always jokingly said it was my Italian Grandfather’s fault, who was 5’8 and bald. So of course, I’m 5’8 with a full head of hair and my brother went bald in his twenties.

To be honest, I think I got the better end of that deal because I’d rather have my hair, than be 6’1. ;-)

Although, in fairness to my brother; he wears his baldness well.

Nino90
01-31-2019, 09:20 PM
I am 190 cm tall. And I would say many of my swedish friends are around 180-185 cm tall.

Berdy
02-01-2019, 06:21 AM
I read somewhere the optimum height for a male is around 6'1"/6'2" or thereabouts, and after that you get diminishing returns with regards to the benefit of height increases beyond that level. So regardless of nutrition advances I don't think any countries will ever have an average height beyond that. I do wonder how much of height is genetics based and how much of it is nutrition based, I've noticed that Africans for example have a tendency to either be very tall or very short. Asians tend to be short although Northern Chinese can be quite tall. Europeans have the most consistently tall heights which you'd expect given their countries' high development and consequent better nutrition.

matty74
02-01-2019, 06:23 AM
What diminishing returns? Chicks here in America love themselves tall guys 6-3 and over. Look no further than professional athletes who are often at that height or taller.

Finn
02-01-2019, 11:51 AM
Some of you are in real need of the video series, Free to Choose, by Nobel Prize-winning economist, Milton Friedman. It's a little dated, but still well worth the time spent watching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3N2sNnGwa4


hear hear!!!! Rutger Bregman in Davos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5LtFnmPruU

LTG
02-01-2019, 12:29 PM
I am 5'10.5 even though my mother is 5'3 and my father is only 5'8. My maternal great grandfather was 6'5, yet my grandfather was only 5'10. My male cousins are 5'6 yet my uncle was 6' and my aunt (Italian descent) was around 5'7. I have also observed, quite interestingly, that even the shape of the skull can differ quite a bit amongst closely related family members. I do believe in general that certain anthropological factors such as height are 'luck of the draw' and can be inherited from random members of the family and not just your parents. This would explain the variation that I often see between siblings.

I have also long observed that most of the older folk here in the UK are shorter on average when compared to more recent generations, although I am not sure if this is diet related or a natural consequence of age and spinal degeneration. I was at a festival last summer here in the UK that was understandably composed mostly of English, Irish and Scottish men and women and I would say that the average male around my age (23) is definitely 5'10+.

rms2
02-01-2019, 05:55 PM
What diminishing returns? Chicks here in America love themselves tall guys 6-3 and over. Look no further than professional athletes who are often at that height or taller.

I think those girls who like professional athletes are attracted to fat, as in a fat wallet, rather than to height.

Drewcastle
12-04-2019, 01:46 AM
Major correlates of male height: A study of 105 countries
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X16300065

Highlights
•This study shows that nutrition in the examined regions consists of three fundamental types of diet based on rice, wheat and milk, respectively.

•Male height in developing countries correlates with protein quantity.
•Male height in developed countries correlates with protein quality.
•Low protein quality can explain the unexpectedly short height means in the highly developed countries of East Asia and wealthy Asian oil superpowers.
•Children's mortality and total fertility are the most important socioeconomic factors correlating with stature.

...
Fig. 8.Correlation between male height in 93 countries and the average daily consumption of ‘highly correlated proteins’ from milk products (dairy), potatoes, eggs, pork and beef (FAOSTAT, 1993–2009).

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1570677X16300065-gr8.jpg
_
Fig. 10. (a) Correlation between the frequency of the ‘pastoral’ Y haplogroup J1-M267 and male height in 21 countries. (b) Correlation between the combined frequencies of the ‘agricultural’ Y haplogroups E-M78, G-M201 & J2-M172 and G-M201 alone, and male height in 21 countries. (c) Correlation between the combined frequencies of Y haplogroups G-M201, E1b-M78, E-M81, J2-M172 & R1a-M420 and male height in 21 countries. (d) Correlation between the phenotype frequency of lactose tolerance (%) and male height in 47 countries. Sources: See Appendix Table 3 and Grasgruber et al. (2014).

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1570677X16300065-gr10.jpg
_
Fig. 12. (a) Correlation between the observed and predicted values of male height–model (4) (see Table 4). (b) Correlation between the observed and predicted values of male height–model (10) (see Table 4).

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1570677X16300065-gr12.jpg

4. Conclusion

The current study extends our previous data from Europe and enables a better understanding of the enviromental determinants of physical growth in the developing world. The most fundamental finding is that the nutritional correlates of male height in North Africa, Asia and Oceania are very different and primarily depend on protein quantity, not protein quality. Furthermore, three basic nutritional styles can be distinguished, depending on the major source of protein:

•The first nutritional style (in tropical Asia) is based on rice and is also characterized by a very low consumption of protein and energy. It is accompanied by very small statures between 162 and 168 cm.

•The second one (in the Muslim countries of North Africa and the Near East) is based on wheat and the consumption of plant protein reaches the highest values in the world. The intake of total protein and total energy is relatively high as well and comparable with Europe, but the average height of young males is still rather short and does not exceed 174 cm.

•The third one is based on animal proteins (particularly those from dairy) and is typical of Northern/Central Europe. This region is characterized by the tallest statures in the world (>180 cm), being matched only by the inhabitants of the Western Balkans, in which we can presume extraordinary genetic predispositions.

....

Of all other variables examined in this study, the human development index (HDI) is the only factor that shows a comparably strong relationship with male height like to nutrition. This indicates that the factors leading to the increase in the average height intertwine with public policies that improve the overall quality of life. As in our previous study, children's mortality (i.e. a disease free environment) is the strongest correlate of stature among all the remaining socioeconomic indicators, but the forward stepwise regression also highlights the role of a lower total fertility rate (i.e. the amount of resources that can be expended per child) and partly urbanization as additional factors that can be targeted, when trying to speed up the pace of the positive height trend.

Besides that, our study shows that, similar to the situation in Europe, the final height in non-European regions may be influenced by genetic factors. Their role in North Africa and the Near East appears to be similarly strong like in Europe, and the inverse relationship between height/lactose tolerance in this region is intriguing. The results are less persuasive concerning the southeastern part of Asia and Oceania, but genetic, socioeconomic and nutritional data from many local countries are still lacking. In any case, the verification of these findings is possible only via studies of autosomal DNA.