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View Full Version : Is U106's route to Northern Europe instructive for R1b-L151?



TigerMW
02-22-2018, 05:23 AM
Latest info from the U106 forum - Iain McDonald. He has been okay with being quoted.

It looks like this is Unetice. This would align, I think, with the idea that Desideri had that the men in the Beaker and Corded Ware cultures then later the Unetice in the Czech region were similar in dental traits even though the women were different. I can't remember the study, a but a German fellow had indicated the bronze metalworking practices were the same in the same region across those cultures.

... maybe it is different pottery but the same men and metalworking, and it would be sense for U106 to be a more mixed society since the Nordic cultures ended up be a balance of ancient male haplogroups.

"In the recent publication of the Olalde sample, it appears that several results have been modified (or even added) since the pre-print. The sample from the Hook of Holland has not changed. However, we now gain the additional U106+ sample of I7196.

The genealogical information reads:
"R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a:S265:14052313C->A; R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a:S498:19047132C->T; R1b1a1a2a1a1c:S263:7246726C->T; R1b1a1a2a1a1:M405:8796078C->T"
S265 = Z304; S498 = Z307; S263 = Z381 and M405 = U106
So the individual is:
U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > Z381 > Z156 > Z306 > Z304
We will need to check within Z304 in the raw data to see if any more recent mutations are identifiable.

The grave record includes:
"I7196/Grave 59: 2200–1700 BCE. Right-sided crouched burial, head towards the south. Sex: orientation – ?, anthropology – ?, DNA – M. Age: adult (35–50 years). Grave goods: bronze hair ring, bone awl, flint industry."

The site record reads:
"Prague-Jinonice (“Zahradnictví”, Prague 5 – Jinonice, Czech Republic)
Contact person: Miroslav Dobeš, Petr Velemínský
The rescue excavations at the site Jinonice – Holman’s gardening took place in 1984-1986 during the construction of the subway [101–103]. A total of 29 graves were found, dated to the older phases of the Únětice culture on the basis of grave equipment (ceramic and bronze inventory) and burial ritual [103,104]. The skeletal remains of 36 individuals were found in the graves [105], with predominance of adults between 20-40 years of age. However, the burial ground was not excavated completely. With the exception of two graves, grave goods (mainly pottery) were found in all graves"
The site itself is in Jinonice in south-western Prague.

The current age I have for Z304 is:
R-Z304 2611 BC (95% confidence interval: 3208 BC — 2078 BC)"

rms2
02-24-2018, 03:18 PM
What if the route for U106 in this case was not to Northern Europe but from Northern Europe? After all, RISE98 from the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden is a couple of hundred years older than I7196 from the Únětice site in Jinonice in the Czech Republic.

If U106 was in the Baltic Bell Beaker zone, or perhaps in northern Corded Ware, that would explain why it didn't show up in any of the Bell Beaker samples in Olalde et al, including those from the Czech Republic. Maybe it only started drifting south at the close of the Bell Beaker period.

Of course, U106 or its immediate predecessor had to get to the Baltic from the steppe somehow, but I'm talking about where it was hiding out during the Bell Beaker period so that it was almost entirely missed in Olalde et al.

MitchellSince1893
02-24-2018, 05:57 PM
In the same post that Mikewww quoted Iain McDonald in #1 above

McDonald goes on to say


Personally, my suspicions based on the aggregate knowledge we have are that U106 probably formed in the regions between Prague and the Baltic Sea, and that Z156 has an origin in the regions around Prague or into the surrounding regions of Germany, only spreading westwards towards the North Sea and British Isles in the various periods following the end of the Únětice culture, perhaps around 1500 BC. Of course, this needn't apply to every U106 or even Z156 line.

It will take some investigation and cogitation before the details become clear, but these are my first impressions.


As U106 & P312 have to eventually go back to the same ancestor and P312 is tied to eastern Bell Beaker (primarily via U152), I think it's informative to also bring in this post from Richard Rocca

This is quite an interesting sequence I've been looking at... Globular Amphorae Culture > Moravian Corded Ware > Moravian Bell Beaker

The settlement at Olomouc-Slavonín and possibly other sites show a mix of Corded Ware pottery with "Begleitkeramik" pottery without the decorated Bell Beaker pottery as can be seen here: https://www.academia.edu/1223032/The...f_Bell_Beakers

The only radiocarbon Corded Ware Culture dates I could find for Olomouc-Slavonín are as follows:
2840 BC ± 60
2610 BC ± 70
2550 BC ± 50

Source: https://www.academia.edu/26079634/_N...ogical_Context

Also from the Czebreszuk paper...

It is important to mention the special character of some
Corded Ware cemeteries in central Moravia. Their assemblages
and body positioning are keeping the traditions of the Corded
Ware burial rite, however, their orientation is up to the Bell
Beaker fashion (north-south, south-north) . Another puzzle is
also the lack of clearly Beaker burial contexts.
To your point Alan, we also need to account for how archery became so important to R-L51+ men. In Moravia at least, there is a evidence of Moravian Bell Beaker arrow-making techniques being the same as that of the Moravian Corded Ware...

Evolution of the Moravian Bell Beaker culture is reflected
in its lithic assemblages. During earlier phases (I and I/
II), arrowheads dominate (Kopacz, Přichystal, Šebela 2009,
Plates XXV: 4, 5; XXVI: 3; XXXIV: 5). They are usually
manufactured from imported lithics (Jurassic silicites from
the Cracow-Częstochowa Upland, silicites from glacial sediments)
as well as from local raw materials (cf. Kopacz,
Přichystal, Šebela 2009, 109, 128). Characteristic elements
of the lithic industry include flat invasive retouch applied
to arrowheads and a flake reduction technique which already
appears during the final stage of the Moravian Corded
Ware culture.
Here is a map of Moravia and the expansions of Bell Beaker from/to surrounding areas...
http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Moravian_BB_Expansion.png

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=242380&viewfull=1#post242380

So we have U106 possibly near Prague and Eastern Bell Beaker possible beginning nearby in Moravia.

While not the oldest dated samples, there were quite a few U152>L2 samples in the Olade paper from the Czech Republic
21718

MitchellSince1893
02-24-2018, 07:39 PM
Also prior post I made on Amesbury Archer Isotope values

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10565-The-Beaker-Phenomenon-And-The-Genomic-Transformation-Of-Northwest-Europe-Olalde&p=254120&viewfull=1#post254120

It’s north of the Alps but also includes present day Czech Republic

rms2
02-24-2018, 09:36 PM
. . .

As U106 & P312 have to eventually go back to the same ancestor and P312 is tied to eastern Bell Beaker (primarily via U152) . . .


I know there was a boatload of new L2 results in Olalde et al (I just finished updating my Google spreadsheet of Kurgan Bell Beaker results), but all of P312 is tied to eastern Bell Beaker and would have been even if not a single new U152 result had turned up.

MitchellSince1893
02-24-2018, 10:05 PM
I know there was a boatload of new L2 results in Olalde et al (I just finished updating my Google spreadsheet of Kurgan Bell Beaker results), but all of P312 is tied to eastern Bell Beaker and would have been even if not a single new U152 result had turned up.

Oh I know...my post was not meant as a boasting about U152... I just wanted to be accurate in my description of the samples.I wish they would find some pre U152 P312

rms2
02-24-2018, 10:09 PM
I was hoping for at least one L21 on the Continent. I know the DF27 guys (and all the other P312 subclade guys) were hoping for some pay dirt, as well. Now we're all waiting to see what Genetiker (and others digging through the raw data) can turn up.

I was also really hoping for the Amesbury Archer's genome, as well. That was a real disappointment.

Really odd that no U106 turned up in Bell Beaker, if it ever was part of Bell Beaker. Like I said above, I'm thinking it must have been in the little bit of BB along the Baltic coast, which is why it hasn't turned up yet.

Jan_Noack
02-25-2018, 01:27 AM
delete- duplicated

Jan_Noack
02-25-2018, 01:28 AM
click arrow - links in previous thread to Nature article in rms post and BAM files , word doc to read free hmm, I formed the impression that U106 (a whole of 3 samples!, so not significant conclusion can be drawn)., but so far it looked to me like went from North (bottom tip of Sweden and travelled south to Czech ? how can you get south to north?
I concur with rms2, and after reading the posts here cannot see how anyone can draw a conclusion of R106 travelling from Czech up northwards. ..? ..the title of this thread..."Is U106's route to Northern Europe..."

I also concur with rms2 that U106 so far from limited data does not appear to be a part of the BB culture ...perhaps somewhere, as suggested along the Baltic coast, but with no samples from archaeology as yet found.

MitchellSince1893
02-25-2018, 03:06 PM
hmm, I formed the impression that U106 (a whole of 3 samples!, so not significant conclusion can be drawn)., but so far it looked to me like went from North (bottom tip of Sweden and travelled south to Czech ? how can you get south to north?
I concur with rms2, and after reading the posts here cannot see how anyone can draw a conclusion of R106 travelling from Czech up northwards. ..? ..the title of this thread..."Is U106's route to Northern Europe..."

I also concur with rms2 that U106 so far from limited data does not appear to be a part of the BB culture ...perhaps somewhere, as suggested along the Baltic coast, but with no samples from archaeology as yet found.

rms2 also is saying
If R1b-L11 was already in Vucedol-Zok, it could mean that L11 came with one of the earlier Kurgan waves (1 or 2), or it could merely represent another Yamnaya y-dna line in late Vucedol.
Vucedol Culture started around 3000BC and Iain McDonald's best guess ages for U106 and P312 is 3022 BC & 3155 BC respectively
If L11 (U106's relatively recent ancestor) was in/near present day Croatia, then at some point U106 or a man in between U106 and L11 had to have gone North.

As I mentioned here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13556-Is-U106-s-route-to-Northern-Europe-instructive-for-R1b-L151&p=354691&viewfull=1#post354691
My current thought is L11 was in/near the Czech Rep/Slovakia, Southern Poland in an area where Corded Ware and Bell Beaker overlapped and where groups existed that showed characteristics of both

With U106 going North from this starting point

rms2
02-25-2018, 03:18 PM
But that R1b-L11 man, who was apparently Proto-Nagyrev, I7043, is dated to 2500-2200 BC, so he probably had a terminal SNP downstream of L11, if we only knew what it was. The L11 branch leading to U106 might have gone north long before via a different route, perhaps north of the Carpathians.

Bollox79
02-25-2018, 03:39 PM
hmm, I formed the impression that U106 (a whole of 3 samples!, so not significant conclusion can be drawn)., but so far it looked to me like went from North (bottom tip of Sweden and travelled south to Czech ? how can you get south to north?
I concur with rms2, and after reading the posts here cannot see how anyone can draw a conclusion of R106 travelling from Czech up northwards. ..? ..the title of this thread..."Is U106's route to Northern Europe..."

I also concur with rms2 that U106 so far from limited data does not appear to be a part of the BB culture ...perhaps somewhere, as suggested along the Baltic coast, but with no samples from archaeology as yet found.

Hmm keep in mind that RISE98... the U106 guy from Southern Sweden... is basically a dead end in terms of SNPs with modern testers... or rather shares one with a few people I think? Or we haven't tested many from where they might be (Scandinavia?). While right now I share U106, Z381, Z156, Z306, and Z304 with the guy from Czech Republic and so does a good bit of Z304+ and DF96- and DF98- guys along with many DF96+ guys and DF98+ guys. You have to also take in consideration of the SNPs and dates and overall structure of the groups ;-). There is a reason we were finding Polish testers who are Z304+ but DF96- and DF98- (not to say they don't have their own subgroup under that we just need more testers from that area of the world to break discover new SNPs under their Z304?) That being said... maybe too early to really be able to say one way or another. I'd like more samples, but it does make a trend. I'd like to know if we can find more SNPs in the raw data from the U106er from West Frisia... whether he is L48... or Z156... or whatever.

In the end it may end up being more complicated than we think... with it coming from Southern Scandinavia... and Czech Republic... and it all came from somewhere before that further East in the Baltic as the starting point... from the Steppes... etc etc :-).

Bollox79
02-25-2018, 03:46 PM
Jan... are you a U106er like me? :-).

MitchellSince1893
02-25-2018, 04:26 PM
But that R1b-L11 man, who was apparently Proto-Nagyrev, I7043, is dated to 2500-2200 BC, so he probably had a terminal SNP downstream of L11, if we only knew what it was. The L11 branch leading to U106 might have gone north long before via a different route, perhaps north of the Carpathians.

Oh ok, I misunderstood your post as saying L11, the ancestor of both P312 and U106 might have been part of the Vucedol culture. IIR, your theory about Vucedol possibly being the source of Bell Beaker and thus P312 may have caused me to confuse the two ideas.

rms2
02-25-2018, 04:53 PM
Oh ok, I misunderstood your post as saying L11, the ancestor of both P312 and U106 might have been part of the Vucedol culture. IIR, your theory about Vucedol possibly being the source of Bell Beaker and thus P312 may have caused me to confuse the two ideas.

I wasn't clear. I0743 does have only an R1b-L11 result, but given his age he must have been derived for something downstream of it. I was thinking of his L11 result as a rubric for everything downstream of it that is old enough to be a possibility.

I do think the brothers I7041 and I7043 could be indications that L11 was already in Vucedol, possibly from one of the earlier Kurgan waves or possibly from Yamnaya mixing with Vucedol, all of which Gimbutas believed happened. For her, Vucedol + Yamnaya was what resulted in Bell Beaker.

167273
02-25-2018, 05:08 PM
What i'm saw in y snp calls i7043 is P312- 106-,but could be positive for another SNP like DF100,

rms2
02-25-2018, 05:54 PM
What i'm saw in y snp calls i7043 is P312- 106-,but could be positive for another SNP like DF100,

Have you tried with I7043's brother, I7041? Olalde et al have him listed as R1b-M269, but they do say he was I7043's brother.

They could have the same mother and different fathers, I guess, which would make them half-brothers. Both of them share mtDNA haplogroup H1b1, so evidently they did have the same mother.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
02-25-2018, 06:45 PM
Hmm keep in mind that RISE98... the U106 guy from Southern Sweden... is basically a dead end in terms of SNPs with modern testers... or rather shares one with a few people I think? Or we haven't tested many from where they might be (Scandinavia?). While right now I share U106, Z381, Z156, Z306, and Z304 with the guy from Czech Republic and so does a good bit of Z304+ and DF96- and DF98- guys along with many DF96+ guys and DF98+ guys. You have to also take in consideration of the SNPs and dates and overall structure of the groups ;-). There is a reason we were finding Polish testers who are Z304+ but DF96- and DF98- (not to say they don't have their own subgroup under that we just need more testers from that area of the world to break discover new SNPs under their Z304?) That being said... maybe too early to really be able to say one way or another. I'd like more samples, but it does make a trend. I'd like to know if we can find more SNPs in the raw data from the U106er from West Frisia... whether he is L48... or Z156... or whatever.

In the end it may end up being more complicated than we think... with it coming from Southern Scandinavia... and Czech Republic... and it all came from somewhere before that further East in the Baltic as the starting point... from the Steppes... etc etc :-).

Very true. It doesn't take many individuals to make a difference somewhere in the long-run.

TigerMW
02-26-2018, 04:12 PM
... In the end it may end up being more complicated than we think... with it coming from Southern Scandinavia... and Czech Republic... and it all came from somewhere before that further East in the Baltic as the starting point... from the Steppes... etc etc :-).
This is no doubt true since we know during the German Wandering period we had Germanic speakers heading south into places like Italy, Spain, the Alpine region, etc.

The challenge is to determine what U106 is in the south from the Wandering period and which was there from the Bronze Age and cultures like Unetice.


What if the route for U106 in this case was not to Northern Europe but from Northern Europe? After all, RISE98 from the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden is a couple of hundred years older than I7196 from the Únětice site in Jinonice in the Czech Republic.

Is there any evidence of people from the Nordic area coming into Unetice Culture? I wasn't aware of any.

rms2
02-26-2018, 06:16 PM
. . .
Is there any evidence of people from the Nordic area coming into Unetice Culture? I wasn't aware of any.

I don't think we know, but Olalde et al tested a lot of Bell Beaker men from the Czech Republic and other places nearby that would eventually be part of Unetice territory and did not turn up any U106. So, either they missed the U106 guys, or U106 wasn't there during the BB Period and came in later.

Do we know where any U106 was during the BB Period? Why, yes. At least one was buried up in Sweden dated to about 2300 BC.

Dewsloth
02-26-2018, 06:22 PM
This is no doubt true since we know during the German Wandering period we had Germanic speakers heading south into places like Italy, Spain, the Alpine region, etc.

The challenge is to determine what U106 is in the south from the Wandering period and which was there from the Bronze Age and cultures like Unetice.

Is there any evidence of people from the Nordic area coming into Unetice Culture? I wasn't aware of any.

Well, if they were, it could be related to this (cultural if not biological connections):


Central and eastern Denmark is receptive to Beaker material culture
only in a general sense: the dagger fashion was adopted and
to a limited degree also archer’s equipment whilst Beaker pottery
is, if not unknown, then at least uncommon. The domestic domain
often has a curved drinking vessel, which is formally related to Bell
Beakers, but without the characteristic ornamentation that would
classify it as a proper Beaker (Wincentz Rasmussen 1990, 36 ff .).

Thus not entirely devoid of Beaker influences this Late Neolithic
zone in central and eastern Denmark evidently relates more closely
to the early Únetice Culture across the Baltic Sea (ibid. 37 ff .). The
Únetice connection intensifies considerably in LN II – a most important
precondition for social transformation and innovations
in metallurgy; in short, the actual beginning of the Nordic Bronze
Age (Vandkilde 1996).

From: http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/pdf/2005_vandkilde_low.pdf

TigerMW
03-08-2018, 01:12 AM
Well, if they were, it could be related to this (cultural if not biological connections):

From: http://www.jungsteinsite.uni-kiel.de/pdf/2005_vandkilde_low.pdf


Thus not entirely devoid of Beaker influences this Late Neolithic
zone in central and eastern Denmark evidently relates more closely
to the early Únetice Culture across the Baltic Sea (ibid. 37 ff .). The
Únetice connection intensifies considerably in LN II – a most important
precondition for social transformation and innovations
in metallurgy; in short, the actual beginning of the Nordic Bronze
Age (Vandkilde 1996)


Thanks, Dewsloth. I need to pull up some of the older Bell Beaker papers but the Wessex Beakers of Britain also traded with Unetice and the most famous Bell Beaker, the Amesbury Archer, has dental traits that indicate he was born in an Alpine region.