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View Full Version : Hypotheses on deployment I-S11991 & I-Y6228 ? [I-Z63> S10360> Y6228> S11991]



CisSasGot
02-23-2018, 04:41 AM
I strongly encourage you to write propositions, some premises, a hypothesis about the place where, in your time, this haplogroup could have been created, and possible migration routes of these groups.

according to yFull:
- I-S11991 (formed 3800 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp);
- I-Y6228 (formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 3800 ybp);

In truth I know that this period of creation is distant ... but some hypotheses maybe there is the possibility, create? (I know that at least from 1640 my ancestors lived in the area [50.057708, 23.392637] and they were the nobility).

So far, I've found some suggestions about the Ostrogoths. (..perhaps?) .. and an curious article in this subject (https : // aleximreh . wordpress . com / 2017 / 02 / 08 / goth-dna /) (link in brackets - but without spaces)
so far (in 2013) I examined Y12 and then various Y-SNPs to found to positive last (S11991); This is not the subject of my post but I put basic values of my Y-STRs:
[DYS393:13; DYS390:25; DYS19:14; DYS391:10; DYS385:14-14; DYS426:11; DYS388:14; DYS439:11; DYS389I:12; DYS392:11; DYS389II:29];

Thank you in advance for all yours proposals, suggestions, comments and guidelines.

JonikW
02-23-2018, 11:12 PM
I'm I1 Z140 and am particularly interested in my paternal line's ancient origins. I'm awaiting Big Y results right now. My family has been in the Peak District of Derbyshire since at least 1300 (any NPEs excepted of course) and my west Germanic haplogroup makes it likely that they came in with the "Anglo-Saxons" given that this area was an Anglian heartland. The Germanic settlement in the area followed the rivers in from the North Sea, as can be plotted on any map of early settlements and cemeteries. The easiest route in to where my ancestors settled would have been through the Humber, Trent and then the Dove. Returning to the DNA, I have few matches at any level but see that my 12 marker STR matches at FTDNA are weighted towards Germany (by a ratio of ~2:1 compared to England) when I hit the Ancestral Origins tab. Looking at the Matches Maps for Z140 shows an obvious cluster around modern Stuttgart when the cluster size is reduced. That area was Alemanni territory in the late Roman empire. What interests me is that the early Sancton cemetery just north of the Humber (where it seems likely that my forefather entered England), while being dominated by Anglian and similar cremation urns, unexpectedly given the broader southern Scandinavian origin of the local immigration also features close parallel pots from the above area around Stuttgart, including Koenigheim, Neckerelz and Tauberbischofsheim (Myres, 1973). Could the people associated with those pots have been my ancestors? It's an intriguing thought. I believe only extensive aDNA sampling could tell me more. Given I only match 23 out of more than 21,000 modern Germans (25 out of 40,000 English) at 12 markers I might have a long wait...

spruithean
02-24-2018, 02:46 PM
I'm I1 Z140 and am particularly interested in my paternal line's ancient origins. I'm awaiting Big Y results right now. My family has been in the Peak District of Derbyshire since at least 1300 (any NPEs excepted of course) and my west Germanic haplogroup makes it likely that they came in with the "Anglo-Saxons" given that this area was an Anglian heartland. The Germanic settlement in the area followed the rivers in from the North Sea, as can be plotted on any map of early settlements and cemeteries. The easiest route in to where my ancestors settled would have been through the Humber, Trent and then the Dove. Returning to the DNA, I have few matches at any level but see that my 12 marker STR matches at FTDNA are weighted towards Germany (by a ratio of ~2:1 compared to England) when I hit the Ancestral Origins tab. Looking at the Matches Maps for Z140 shows an obvious cluster around modern Stuttgart when the cluster size is reduced. That area was Alemanni territory in the late Roman empire. What interests me is that the early Sancton cemetery just north of the Humber (where it seems likely that my forefather entered England), while being dominated by Anglian and similar cremation urns, unexpectedly given the broader southern Scandinavian origin of the local immigration also features close parallel pots from the above area around Stuttgart, including Koenigheim, Neckerelz and Tauberbischofsheim (Myres, 1973). Could the people associated with those pots have been my ancestors? It's an intriguing thought. I believe only extensive aDNA sampling could tell me more. Given I only match 23 out of more than 21,000 modern Germans (25 out of 40,000 English) at 12 markers I might have a long wait...

I'm also part of the I-Z140 branch and I do have some level of interest in my paternal line's ancient origins too. According to my paper trail my immigrant ancestor came from Scotland, but due to an apparent lack of records and an over abundance of similarly named people born all over Scotland in the same time-frame it has been near impossible to find his parents or origins within Scotland. I am also curious as to where my specific branch of Z140 originated, so far the majority of the A13241+ people have roots in the British Isles (some have roots in Sweden).

I suspect there is some deep origin amongst the Angles who settled in Northern Britain and founded the kingdoms of Bernicia & Deira, which later of course merged to form Northumbria. However the tree for Haplogroup I1 with Big Y (and other NGS testing) is still in its infancy compared to the R haplogroups and it will take some time to get higher resolution calculations for TMRCA and formed dates for each branch of the I1 tree. That and the lack of aDNA results pertaining to I1... it's going to be a waiting game I suppose. Hopefully with well worth the wait results!

CisSasGot, your guess is as good as any I suppose, I-S11991 could perhaps have been distributed by the Ostrogoths, or perhaps any other ancient Germanic migrating group?

kirroid
04-29-2018, 09:17 AM
It is really hard to comment your result as your sub-clade is quite poorly represented. Also, Y6228 is all over the place, so it is impossible to pinpoint it to any location.

At the same time Z63 is considered as being of Goths origin, especially when it comes to a EE individual.

oz
04-29-2018, 04:56 PM
I also have I1Z63.
I guess we won't find out until some ancient samples show which people had this subclade. From what I've seen so far all of I1-DF29 is virtually absent in pre-metal age dna. So when did it start to spread out all over Europe only during the Iron and Middle ages? Germanic migrations? The most likely hypothesis for now.


Highest percentage of I1 in some tests from the Balkans that I found is in Dalmatia especially Dubrovnik around 10% over 200 people tested, and the Szekelys in Romania up to 17% of 97 people.

kirroid
05-02-2018, 06:27 AM
I also have I1Z63.
I guess we won't find out until some ancient samples show which people had this subclade.
Well, we can also presume based on what is currently known about Z63. Its spread over Europe is nicely correlated with the presence of the Goths in relevant areas. Thus, the chances that Z63 was common among the Goths is quite high.

oz
08-05-2018, 06:08 PM
23&me just updated my y-haplo to I-Y6228 which doesn't explain to me a whole lot because the TMRCA of it on yfull is around 3400 ybp that's still quite a long time ago. And the nearest upstream and downstream branches of that branch are found all over Europe. No clue where exactly it might've originated.