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Jean M
02-23-2018, 05:09 AM
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/02/ancient-dna-upends-horse-family-tree


Horses radically changed human history, revolutionizing how people traveled, farmed, and even made war. Yet every time we think we’ve answered the question of where these animals came from, another study brings us back to square one. Such is the case with an extensive new study of ancient horse DNA, which largely disproves the current theory: that modern horses arose more than 5000 years ago in Kazakhstan. Instead, the new work suggests that modern-day domestic horses come from an as-yet-undiscovered stock. The research also shows that the world’s only remaining wild horses, called Przewalski’s horses, are not truly wild...

Until now, many researchers had thought that the Botai culture, an ancient group of hunters and herders that relied on horses for food and possibly transport in what today is northern Kazakhstan, first harnessed horses 5500 years ago....With this history in mind, paleogeneticist Ludovic Orlando ... and the University of Copenhagen decided to analyze the ancient DNA of these horses. “I expected to catch evolution red-handed, when domestication first started,” Orlando recalls. He teamed up with longtime Botai zooarchaeologist Alan Outram from the University of Exeter ... and together they discovered an ancient corral at the site, another sign of domestication. They collected and later sequenced DNA from 20 Botai horse remains; they did the same for a similar number of horses living in various regions over the past 5000 years. They then compared these sequences to scores of already existing sequences, including Przewalski’s horses, and built a family tree showing which breeds were most closely related. The tree “was really quite a shock,” Orlando says.

For one, Przewalski’s horses were in the same part of the tree as the Botai horses. From their relationship, it was clear that these “wild” horses were escaped Botai horses, the team reports today in Science. “We have now found that there are no truly wild horses left” anywhere in the world, Outram says. Another surprise was that all the other horses were on a separate branch of the tree, suggesting they were not Botai descendents as many have long thought ...Outram suspects that in addition to the Botai horses east of the Ural Mountains, there may have been domesticated horses to the west that won out thanks to migrations, he explains. Outram suspects that in addition to the Botai horses east of the Ural Mountains, there may have been domesticated horses to the west that won out thanks to migrations, he explains.

Support for David Anthony's view may be on the way.

jdean
02-23-2018, 08:52 AM
Support for David Anthony's view may be on the way.

The bit that got my curiosity going is right at the end.


One major barrier remains to knowing which scenario is right: a dearth of DNA samples from between 4000 and 5000 years ago. So Orlando and his colleagues are collecting more. But another kind of DNA might help them in their work—ancient human DNA that details migration and population patterns from that time. Indeed, they already have some evidence from unpublished studies. But Outram is keeping quiet about that work. “My mouth is zipped for now.”

Silesian
02-23-2018, 10:05 AM
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/02/ancient-dna-upends-horse-family-tree



Support for David Anthony's view may be on the way.
some rhetorical questions-
when does Krause set expansion?
what was the shape[what culture] of zoomorphic scepter popular on the Steppe-not found in Skelia/SS culture
how many times does the rigveda mention horses compared to oxen?
where and when earliest horse/burials/and or remains of horses in regions like BB/CW/Yamnaya/Swat Valley/Hunagry?
earliest sign of horse variability in Europe[region]?
earliest L51 sample?
earliest Sintashta culture?

johen
02-24-2018, 08:40 PM
1. I think human beings domesticated horse for the purpose of eating, charioteering and riding.
And I think the bronze people was on the first stage of eating.


The nature of early horse exploitation:

The occurrence of butchered horse bones testify that these animals were exploited for food. This was the initial stage of domestication, according to Bökönyi (1994). The hypothesis that the secondary use of the horse was for riding fighters in the Chalcolithic is not acceptable. Kozshin (1970) interpreted perforated horn objects recovered from Afanasevo Culture sites in Siberia as riding bits, but a number of scholars, including Gryaznov disagree with this interpretation. Danilenko and Shmaglii (1972) and Telegin (1973) have interpreted similar artifacts from Dereivka (Srednii Stog), and declared that the steppe horsebreeder warrior-riders had launched distant military raids. Gimbutas (1990), who received her internship in Germany, and in turn became anti-Soviet (Häusler 1996), wrote about aggressive warriors invading European farmers with fire and a sword, thus attaching a political character to the study. Recently, Anthony (1986), Anthony and Brown (1991), and Liehardus (1984) have revived the hypothesis of militant riders. The riding of horses by warriors of the Chalcolithic period has been already contended (Kuzmina 1977; 1994). Some European cultures, including those that were not familiar with the horse (Dietz 1992) as well as those in China (Komissarov 1980), have produced a number of bone objects that were similar, and according to ethnographic analogies, they may be compared with tools for uniting knots or weaving nets. This interpretation corresponds to the information obtained for fishing in Dereivka and Switzerland.
The Eurasian Steppes The Transition from Early Urbanism to Nomadism
Elena Kuzmina
Russian Institute for Cultural Research

2. The big problem is how sintashta people was on the second stage of charioteering, even if corded ware people did not have horse culture at all.
So I think the charioteering might be incubated on okunevo culture.
http://i58.tinypic.com/2ij6wkj.jpg
http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES4034web/07Sokolova(434-456).pdf

Moreover, horse riding was not easy job at that time. Even the mighty tin-bronze seima-turbino people did not ride a horse at all.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Chernykh/Chernykh2008Fig8.jpg
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Chernykh/Chernykh2008EMPSteppesEn.htm

3. But we can see a lot of humanbeing’s struggle to use horse which was nothing but a killer. And then they used a horse for chariot, by which they could ride a horse. It is a similar pattern of american Indian to control a horse in a pond by water's burden on a horse. Everything was step by step, not jumping.
http://sanat2013.orexca.com/eng/3-4-08/img/5.jpg



4. .I think andronovo people would not ride a horse at all.


As far as I know, 110 petroglyphs of chariot were found just in Karzakstan at that time, but none of horse riding

http://arheologija.ru/wp-content/uploads/izo-3.jpg
Petroglyphs with images of the chariots: Altai (A), Tuva (B) and in Kazakhstan (In)
http://arheologija.ru/sotsialno-ekon...ie-protsessyi/

johen
02-25-2018, 04:24 PM
1. As far as I know, sintashta, east scythian, aryan and bronze china horse were same horses.
This one would be aryan horse:
http://www.ourglobaltrek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/india-khajuraho-10.jpg


The characterization of the Hun horse as deformes is too vague to draw conclusions from it. To a roman, most steppe horses must be looked as misshapen as the horse of the scythians, with their short legs and big heads, or those of the Sigynnae, shaggy and snub-nosed, allegedly too small to ride upon.18 The only author to give a good description of the Hun horse is Vegetius. ...following the example set by the Huns ad other barbarians, people have altogether ceased consulting veterinarians. ....The Roman horse is of a much more delicate constitution; unless it has good shelter and a warm stable, it will catch one illness after another.


The 14 ancient genomes reported here have strong implications for the horse domestication process. First, it has recently been discovered that a now-extinct lineage of wild horses existed in the Arctic until at least ~5.2 ka and significantly contributed to the genetic makeup of present-day domesticates (14,15). The timing of the underlying admixture event(s) is, however, unknown. Using D statistics, we confirmed that this extinct lineage shared more derived polymorphisms with the Sintashta and especially Scythian horses than with present-day domesticates (Fig. 2B). The domestic horse lineage, thus, experienced a net loss of archaic introgressed tracts within the past ~2.3 ky.

2. Does someone know what kind of horse Mycenaean Tholos Tomb horse is? And does Minoan have this kind of horse burial culture?
http://lyk-ag-triad.arg.sch.gr/dendra/images/tafes%20alogon/tafes%20alogon%201.JPG

AND

A burial site containing an unusually well-preserved horse skeleton, intact even down to the hooves, was among the findings discovered during landscaping works around the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Cultural Center at the Faliro Delta, a prime tract of land in southern coastal Athens, Greece, which previously hosted the country’s only pari-mutuel horse track. The skeleton was presented to the Central Archaeological Council during a session held on Tuesday, with members stressing its importance.
“In the Faliro necropolis, we have found four complete horse graves, as well as parts of other skeletons, therefore, it is not something rare for the area. What is rare and surprised us was the degree of preservation of the specific skeleton, which even has its hooves. For zoo-archaeologists or a university, this find could be an excellent opportunity for a study. Having such a large number of skeletons – four is quite a number – such a study could reach a number of conclusions on the breeds and the evolution of the species. From this point of view, this discovery is very important,” head archaeologist Stella Chrysoulaki explained.She noted that burying horses in a cemetery for people periodically occurred, while it was not strange for the Faliro necropolis, “where unbelievable things happen.” She noted that it was a cemetery stretching from the Archaic era to the Classical era, containing many strange and unusual findings. One such was the discovery of two skeletons, possibly of a couple, lying with their hands clasped. This indicated that they actually died together, since rigor mortis did not allow other conclusion, she said.A total of 136 burial sites dating back to the Archaic era had been found in the 840-square-meter ancient cemetery, including the horse burial site and sections of a mass grave, burial urns and other findings.The Central Archaeological Council approved continuing construction works over the discovered structures, which mostly consisted of ground holes, while the skeletons were removed for study. Proposals were made to display and highlight some of the findings at the cultural center.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/files/horse-skeleton-e1452766371958.jpg
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/01/14/intact-horse-skeleton-discovered-in-ancient-greek-cemetery/

rms2
03-01-2018, 12:51 AM
I suspect Bell Beaker had a lot to do with horse breeding in east central, central, and western Europe.

Thus far we know of at least two ancient Bell Beaker skeletons with osteological evidence of extensive horseback riding:

I0805 Y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: H1 2467-2142 BC Quedlinburg, Germany

I6581 Y-DNA: R1b-L2 mtDNA: H6a1a 2456-2146 BC Kornice (site 33, woj. śląskie, Upper Silesia/Górny Śląsk, Poland)

Dewsloth
03-01-2018, 01:14 AM
I suspect Bell Beaker had a lot to do with horse breeding in east central, central, and western Europe.

Thus far we know of at least two ancient Bell Beaker skeletons with osteological evidence of extensive horseback riding:

I0805 Y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: H1 2467-2142 BC Quedlinburg, Germany

I6581 Y-DNA: R1b-L2 mtDNA: H6a1a 2456-2146 BC Kornice (site 33, woj. śląskie, Upper Silesia/Górny Śląsk, Poland)

Have you seen this one?

http://sciencepress.mnhn.fr/sites/default/files/articles/pdf/az2016n1a2.pdf


Late Eneolithic – Bronze Age (2800-1000*BC)
Late Eneolithic cultures (Corded Ware, Bell-Beaker), despite
their presence in the Czech Republic, did not yet provide
reliable postcranial osteometric data, so our comparisons are
mainly based on published data from surrounding regions.
Here, a higher mobility of cultures is expected, as demonstrated by the well-known and rapid territorial expansion
across a large area and suggested by Heyd (2011), based
on isotope analyses. The Bell-Beaker culture represented
by data from Hungary and Austria reveals relatively large
horses (Fig. 9). A large variability in size of Bell-Beaker
horses from Csepel-Háros (together with high abundance
in the assemblage) is commonly believed to reflect domestic
status (Bökönyi 1978; Uerpmann 1990; Anthony 2007).
Alternatively, the large variability in this site, and the large
variability in Czech horses from Vlíněves (Únětice c., with
a secondary peak in distribution at this site), could reflect
multiple origins of the populations. A statistically significant
mutual difference in size between these chronologically
proximate sites (Table 5) also supports the idea of multiple
origin, which is consistent with the known mobility of BellBeaker
c. (forming the basis for the genesis of Únětice c.;
Jiráň & Venclová 2013). The existence of more than one
horse type within the Carpathian arch in Bell-Beaker times
also stems from new findings from Vienna (Austria; Czeika
2013) and from findings of two skulls of different sizes in
one grave (grave 1 at Vyškov, Moravia), estimated to belong
to individuals 120 cm and 140 cm high (after Ondráček
1961). A renewed size diminution in the Únětice c., and their
relatively large abundance (Roblíčková 2003a; Kyselý pers.
obs.) in comparison with previous local Eneolithic cultures,
provides further evidence of domestication in that period.
The persistence of wild horses in these cultures cannot be
proved by osteometry, but osteometric evidence supports
the presence of domesticated horses. The domestic status
in EBA horses is generally accepted based on the obvious
presence of domesticated horses in EBA in Great Britain
(Bendrey 2010; Bendrey et al. 2013) and in EBA in the
Balkans, where wild horses became extinct prior to these
horizons (Benecke 1994), and on Early Bronze Age finds of
components of harnessing and textual and artistic evidence
(Hüttel 1982; Levine 1999b; Dietz 2003; Brownrigg 2006;
Olsen 2006; Szédeli 2006; Bendrey 2012).

johen
03-01-2018, 03:53 AM
I suspect Bell Beaker had a lot to do with horse breeding in east central, central, and western Europe.

Thus far we know of at least two ancient Bell Beaker skeletons with osteological evidence of extensive horseback riding:
[/B]
I0805 Y-DNA: R1b-M269 mtDNA: H1 2467-2142 BC Quedlinburg, Germany

I6581 Y-DNA: R1b-L2 mtDNA: H6a1a 2456-2146 BC Kornice (site 33, woj. śląskie, Upper Silesia/Górny Śląsk, Poland)
I don't know the evidence, but horseback riding at that time?
Why did the ancient Greek solider at Marathon run 42,195 km to send a message, not use horse? Did they forget all of their ancestor's skill? I always think that there is nothing without payment. Struggling with horse (like one step in Okunevo, two steps in seima turbino)such a long time, central Asian people got to ride a horse, dominating East and west Eurasia.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13460-How-have-Finnish-people-changed-over-the-millennia/page2 (post 19)

and
https://roadrunnersguidetotheancientworld.files.wordpress. com/2013/12/royal-outfit1.jpg

Situated in eastern Scythia just north of Sogdiana, the kurgan contained a skeleton, warrior's equipment, and assorted funerary goods, including 4,000 gold ornaments. Although the sex of the skeleton is uncertain, it may have been an 18-year-old Saka (Scythian) prince or princess.

http://siberiantimes.com/PICTURES/SCIENCE/Okunevo-burial-ground-Itkol/inside_mask_2.jpg
http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/f0252-found-grave-of-siberian-noblewoman-up-to-4500-years-old-with-links-to-native-americans/


Abstracts:
In the mid-first B.C. a common pastrol-nomadic culture dispersed over the Eurasian steppe, from Hungary to china and siberia. Carried largely by Iranian peoples, it was distinguished by a "Scythic triad" of characteristic horse gear, weaponry, and art in the famous "animal style." The precise nature and developmental history of this art remain controversial despite much research. Many have stressed antecedents at Ziwiye in Iran while some find sources in China's Western chou culture. Since 1980, the precedence of Arzhan on the uppermpst Yenisey has become evident. A developmental chain from OKUNEVO to karasuk and Tagar(scythian) can be traced for 1000years.


Conclusion:

To summarize, it is possible to state that the truly primary source of the “animal style” are revealed in the stylistic pecurities of the depictions in the OKUNEVO culture.
----
In the black sea, there was formed, on this basis, the special scytho-greek art which evidently transmitted the same subject matter but with richer means, from the standpoint of classical cultures. Many reflections of the “animal styles” can be observed in the arts of Hunno-sarmatian tribes, in Celto-Germanic culture, in Viking culture, and in ancient Rusiian Arts.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40316167?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

johen
03-01-2018, 03:50 PM
http://lyk-ag-triad.arg.sch.gr/dendra/images/tafes%20alogon/tafes%20alogon%201.JPG


by the way, this greek people looks like anthropologically and archaeologically related with kalash:
the elite greek woman 4 suns and hair band marks like kalash people, and looks like having Epicanthic fold. And the mycenaeans had strange noses, but I don't know.

http://arthistoryresources.net/greek-art-archaeology-2016/greek-art-archaeology-images/mycenaefemalehead.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cOF3DP8rA2c/VR6TWS0JZPI/AAAAAAAABAE/KKTh6t5dgMA/s1600/1300-1250%2Bbce%2Bfemale%2Bhead%2Bmade%2Bof%2Bplaster%2 Bwearing%2Bheadband%2C%2BMycenaean%2C%2Bfrom%2Bthe %2Bside.jpg
Female Head from Mycenae c. 1300-1200 BCE (LH IIIB) Painted Plaster Height 63/5 inches (National Archaeological Museum, Athens)
http://arthistoryresources.net/greek...sculpture.html
http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/la-1223-pin06-970x500.jpg
http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/pakistans-polytheistic-kalash-tribe-threatened-with-death-by-taliban/

http://www.hartzler.org/cc307/mycenaean/images/73.jpg
http://www.hartzler.org/cc307/mycenaean/3c.html
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Athens_-_Sacred_Gate_kouros_01.jpg/488px-Athens_-_Sacred_Gate_kouros_01.jpg
http://greeklatin.cua.edu/res/images/decorative-images/sacred-gate-kouros.jpg
http://greeklatin.cua.edu/undergrad/seniorproject.cfm

we need this genes from Harvard Lab next time:

I have located the text of George Panagiaris important 1993 doctoral thesis on Greek skeletal material. This may be one of the most comprehensive efforts to study the Ancient Greek population from a physical anthropological perspective (413 male and 354 female crania, using 65 biometric characters as well odontological traits).

Panagiaris' conclusions in English can be found in p.10 of the document. He confirms that the greater period of discontinuity in the material is observed during the Helladic period (=Bronze Age in Greek archaeology), where broad-headed incoming groups appear, side by side with the older Mediterranean population. He attributes this to the arrival of such people from the highlands Pindos range, although he sees the possibility of Anatolian influences as well, but has no comparative data. He cites the tendency for broader skulls in higher latitudes, although this general trend in H. sapiens probably does not explain the local trend within Caucasoids where the key difference is between mountaineers (where the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types are well-represented) and lowland folk. Perhaps, if various ancient DNA projects manage to study some Greek material we may be able to ascertain the events that were taking place in Greece at that time.
https://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/07/a-physico-anthropological-study-of.html

https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/brace-2.jpg

p.s:
Tradition contiues or not? Snow-white in Kosovo, Bulgaria
https://iadsb.tmgrup.com.tr/b6dc41/645/344/0/54/1000/586?u=https://idsb.tmgrup.com.tr/2017/08/28/1503951431773.jpg
https://www.etar.org/kalendar/kal2010/svatbi/5.jpg
https://www.dailysabah.com/history/2017/08/29/traditional-bridal-makeup-in-kosovo-intrigues-tourists-academics
https://www.etar.org/kalendar/kal2010/svatbi/svatbien.htm

rms2
03-03-2018, 12:09 AM
I don't know the evidence, but horseback riding at that time? . . .

Yep.

I0805, from Mathieson 2015: ". . . traits at the acetabulum and the femur head suggesting that the individual frequently rode horses."

I6581, from Olalde et al 2018: "Poirier’s facet, often observed in horse riders, is evident."

Live with it.

johen
03-03-2018, 06:40 AM
Yep.

I0805, from Mathieson 2015: ". . . traits at the acetabulum and the femur head suggesting that the individual frequently rode horses."

I6581, from Olalde et al 2018: "Poirier’s facet, often observed in horse riders, is evident."

Live with it.

If so, there is a great possibilty of BB people to come from central Asia.

The above anthro work by Dr. C Loring Brace(2003): the greek bronze people(the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types) is EXTEMELY close to cromagnon, which means paleo type skull. I think BB people belongs to them.

As far as I known. this paleo type people disappeared in East Europe since gracile yamna, cwc and sintasha. The gracile factor looks like being from CHG, and EEF. EHG skull has a trait of "short skull, broad face and upper facial flatness” which is a description of cromagnon type or paleo europoid. That is why I think every russian anthropologist said that bronze steppe people broadly looks like cromagon and UP type (so called proto europoid), originating in cromagnon. It is a great mistake genetically and anthropologically to connect bronze steppe people to cromagnon or UP.

see the below, the first one is yamna/afanasievo type. The BB/ greek broze type seems to be in brachy 2nd one. yamna M269 cannot make 2nd one.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/2-2.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/Borntobeking/media/2-2.jpg.html)


** Memo:
According to Dr. Brace, UP, mongolian bronze and greek bronze is close: mongolian bronze is not related with modern mongolian, but late bronze people chandman, who ties with Blackfook american Indian.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cOF3DP8rA2c/VR6TWS0JZPI/AAAAAAAABAE/KKTh6t5dgMA/s1600/1300-1250%2Bbce%2Bfemale%2Bhead%2Bmade%2Bof%2Bplaster%2 Bwearing%2Bheadband%2C%2BMycenaean%2C%2Bfrom%2Bthe %2Bside.jpg
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/brace-1.jpg

rms2
03-03-2018, 07:24 PM
Some scholars believe the extreme brachycephaly of some Bell Beaker skulls was due to the cultural practice of cradle-boarding. They did tend to be tall for the period and to have robust skeletons, as well.

johen
03-08-2018, 06:33 PM
Some scholars believe the extreme brachycephaly of some Bell Beaker skulls was due to the cultural practice of cradle-boarding. They did tend to be tall for the period and to have robust skeletons, as well.

Maybe, but I disagree with it, b/c the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types in Greek bronze looks very similar. It seems to me that the greek bronze has all traits of those 4 types. It is meaningless to classify them. Maybe BB type is just a little flattened from pamir type, just a little but it doesn't matter, I think.

See, they all similar.

Dinaric
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VLqTN0yKxHM/V06qLjKgMXI/AAAAAAAAEgE/YbpxvH3cYg8A5VnnKp6TC46yOiPEPOLrwCLcB/s650/Bee_Low_Bell_Beaker.png

Pamir-Ferghana
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Ismagulov/BC_1700Fig2NeolythBronzeKaraozekSkullIsmagulov.gif

Armenoid: http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4657216/1/
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/Baker4.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/user/Borntobeking/media/Baker4.jpg.html)

==> However, the most important thing is those kinds of people appeared all around the world at similar age, maybe with chariot.

Greek bronze:
Shaft tomb: burial type is different from BB.

The practice of digging shaft tombs was a widespread phenomenon with prominent examples found in Mycenaean Greece; in Bronze Age China; and in Mesoamerican Western Mexico.[2]

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~prehistory/aegean/wp-content/flagallery/lesson16/16-1.jpg
https://www.dartmouth.edu/~prehistory/aegean/wp-content/flagallery/lesson16/16-3.jpg
https://www.dartmouth.edu/~prehistory/aegean/wp-content/plugins/flash-album-gallery/flagframe.php?i=7&f=photo_blog&h=480


China bronze:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/WL4AAOSwETJaHrVj/s-l1600.jpg

Headband & hairmode of woman:
http://www.chinareisen.de/userfiles/chinareisen.de/7%20Dem%20Himmel%20So%20Nah%20-%20Qomolangma,%20Kailash%20Reisen%20und%20Trekking/2014%20Gruppenreisen/TQ15CTUCTU%20Dem%20Himmel%20so%20nah,%20DI-DI/Dem%20Himmel%20so%20nah%2015%20Tage_4.jpg
http://www.chinareisen.de/761-Dem-Himmel-so-nah-Tibet-Nepal-Rundreise-ohne-Flug.html
https://picclick.com/Old-Chinese-Pure-Bronze-Ancient-Sanxingdui-culture-man-182934531111.html

http://catherinemayoauthor.com/a/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Mycenaean-women.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/550x/63/a3/da/63a3da4ddaf2e5512b5b9c95e76620d0.jpg
https://philosophiaperennisetars.wordpress.com/page/3/

Shaft tomb in china
http://www.kaogu.cn/uploads/en/2015tu/201506/20150616sanxing3.jpg
http://www.kaogu.cn/en/News/New_discoveries/2015/0616/50594.html

https://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/183860331-e1389831567741.jpg

==> Looks like they are all caucasoid women. Where do you think they came from?

The largest of these cities was Shimao. Founded about 4,300 years ago, Shimao was only inhabited for 300 years. In the ruins of this ancient stone town, archaeologists made a grisly discovery of over 80 human skulls—with no bodies in sight. The skulls were all of young women who died around 4,000 years ago. Further examination of the skulls showed evidence of violent deaths involving blunt objects and fire. As to why so many young women were beheaded and buried in a mass grave, researchers believe that the girls were probably from enemy groups and sacrificed as part of ceremonies to mark the founding of the city.
https://listverse.com/2014/01/18/10-horrifying-archaeological-findings-of-human-sacrifice/


Unlike the Yangshao and Hemudu people, who came from southern China, the Huang Di nation came from west of China, from the western part of the Eurasian continent. They conquered the native people of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River, who possessed a developed agricultural culture. By combining their own imported cultural factors with those of the native culture, the Huang Di people gradually developed a splendid new civilization in the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties. They superseded the original native people to take the leading role on the stage of Chinese history. That the Huang Di nation was a branch of the archaic Indo-European people is one of the most remarkable facts thus far known to human history. But a large number of Indo-European words in Old Chinese language clearly attest to this fact. The relics left by the Huang Di people are related to the Longshan Culture in the archaeological chronicle, and the civilization of the Xia, Shang, Zhou, and Qin秦 dynasties were its successors.27 Evidence for this claim comes from two sources: the first uses the evidence of ancient documents to show that the Zhou people, and thus the Yellow Emperor’s nation, were originally a nomadic people, and the second is to reveal that there were a large number of Indo-European words in the Zhou language, using the evidence of historical linguistics. The third is the similarity in religion between the Huang Di people and Proto-Indo-European. As to the last point, please refer to the author’s paper “Old Chinese ‘帝*tees’ and Proto-Indo-European ‘*deus’: Similarity in Religious Ideas and a Common Source in Linguistics” (Zhou 2005).

the Huang Di people(or nation) means emperor tribe which I think chinese called the bronze people. More intersting thing is korean pronounce Old Chinese ‘帝’ as Je, like Jeus in Greek, which means king.
I think korean has not loaned the words from chinese, but altai nomad of N1c or Q1a1, b/c one chinese character is one syllable w/o exception in korea now. In china, one chinese character is one or two syllable. Likewise one chinese character is one or two syllable in japan, b/c they learned it from korean scholar around 4 century.

P.s

really big almod eyes with gold mask
http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/bronze-heads-Sanxingdui-china.jpg
http://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/mysterious-ancient-artefacts-sanxingdui-have-rewritten-chinese-history-001495
http://arthistoryresources.net/greek-art-archaeology-2016/greek-art-archaeology-images/mycenaefemalehead.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/MaskOfAgamemnon.jpg

Ebizur
03-09-2018, 04:26 PM
the Huang Di people(or nation) means emperor tribe which I think chinese called the bronze people. More intersting thing is korean pronounce Old Chinese ‘帝’ as Je, like Jeus in Greek, which means king.
I think korean has not loaned the words from chinese, but altai nomad of N1c or Q1a1, b/c one chinese character is one syllable w/o exception in korea now. In china, one chinese character is one or two syllable. Likewise one chinese character is one or two syllable in japan, b/c they learned it from korean scholar around 4 century.
皇帝 (Mandarin huángdě, Cantonese wong4 dai3, Korean 황뎨 hoangdyey > 황제 hwangje, Japanese 漢音 kan-on i.e. "Han pronunciation" kwautei > kōtei or 呉音 go-on i.e. "Wu pronunciation" waudai > ōdai, Vietnamese hoàng đę́) means "emperor" or, in archaic texts, something like "(Supreme/Primary) God, Deus, Lord of Heaven." The Japanese kan-on reading sounds like a medieval Japanese person's attempt to approximate a proto-Mandarin reading of the characters, whereas the Japanese go-on reading sounds like a medieval Japanese person's attempt to approximate a proto-Cantonese reading of the characters. In this word's case, the Mandarinesque kan-on pronunciation is the only one that is actively used in modern Japanese speech. The 皇 character appears to consist of 白 "white" above 王 "king," and is generally glossed as "royal, imperial, ruler, superior, emperor, sovereign; great, grand." It also refers to deities in ancient myths and legends, and it is used in honorific terms for ancestors, e.g. someone's deceased father. It is homophonous with 黄 "yellow" (q.v.), 凰/䳨 (also written as 羽 "feathers, wing" above 王 "king") "female phoenix (or rather the female of a certain chimaeric creature from Chinese mythology)," 煌 "brilliant, bright, shining, luminous," 惶 "fearful, afraid, anxious, nervous," 遑 "leisure, leisurely; hurry about, hastily, in a hurry" (because anything can mean its opposite, right?), 徨 "doubtful, irresolute, vacillating," 璜 "a semicircular jade ornament used as a pendant," 簧 "a reed of a woodwind instrument," 磺 "sulphur, brimstone," 蝗 "locust, grasshopper," 潢 "marsh, swamp," 篁 "bamboo grove; bamboo," 隍 "dry ditch, dry moat," etc.

黄帝 (Mandarin huáng dě, Cantonese wong4 dai3, Korean 황뎨 hoangdyey > 황제 hwangje, Japanese kan-on kwautei > kōtei, Vietnamese Hoŕng Đế) is the so-called "Yellow Emperor" of Chinese national foundation mythos. This is usually treated as a proper noun and is written with a different character (黄 "yellow, sallow") although it is homophonous with the aforementioned common noun for "emperor" or "God."

Modern Korean 帝 제 je is descended from Late Middle Korean 帝 뎨 dyey and is the regular development in the Korean language of the Korean rendition of a proto-Mandarin type of Chinese reading for the character (which in Mandarin Chinese itself has developed into dě). There is nothing irregular about it at all; the number of such loan morphemes in the Korean language is essentially equal to the number of characters in a Korean dictionary of Chinese characters (excluding variant characters for writing an identical morpheme, of course).

johen
03-09-2018, 07:01 PM
黄帝 (Mandarin huáng dě, Cantonese wong4 dai3, Korean 황뎨 hoangdyey > 황제 hwangje, Japanese kan-on kwautei > kōtei, Vietnamese Hoŕng Đế) is the so-called "Yellow Emperor" of Chinese national foundation mythos. This is usually treated as a proper noun and is written with a different character (黄 "yellow, sallow") although it is homophonous with the aforementioned common noun for "emperor" or "God."
.

How do you pronounce" dai"? Is it two syllables or one? Huang is two sounds, right?

Korean 뎨(dyey) is one syllable(one sound). Korean황(hoang) is also one syllable. As far as I know, korean often pronounces chinese two vowel sounds as one vowel, which means to pronounce complicatedly like hungarian.

I don’t know a proto-Mandarin type of Chinese reading for the character, but di or dai seem to originate in tee. The chinese author I quote compares “Old Chinese ‘帝*tees’ to deus, mentioning the Huang Di
I just think ancient people might not pronuonce tee or Di(simple one sound) to korean 뎨dyey(complicate one sound), nor chinese dai(two sounds) to 뎨(one sound).

But I do not ignore your opinion. It doesn't matter to me.

Pappy
03-10-2018, 03:35 AM
Funny how the horse is upended by a study or a finding, but humans oh no we don't got there.

Judith
03-10-2018, 08:08 PM
The supplementary material to the OP can be found here https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10871/31710/Gaunitz-Science-SOM.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

Helen
03-11-2018, 11:33 AM
It is a pity they did not include a modern haplogroup R in their mtDNA tree as this is the most basal and we could see if the Botai Borly sub clade was really as basal as it looks in the diagrams. I know that sample 151 KT75775 is in position Pre A'Q as defined by the domestic horse mtDNA tree Domtree 2

johen
03-26-2018, 11:51 PM
1. As far as I know, sintashta, east scythian, aryan and bronze china horse were same horses.
This one would be aryan horse:
http://www.ourglobaltrek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/india-khajuraho-10.jpg


particularly, engravings denoting the horse in Chinese oracle-bone inscriptions, it was the wild Przhevalsky horse (Mair 1998). Its range in the historical period embraced the whole of the Eurasian steppes, including Mongolia. The Przhevalsky horse is untamable.
The Origin of the Indo-Iranians, Kuz'mina, ‎J. Mallory


Is the following statement true?

In verse I.162.18, the Rigveda describes the horse as having 34 ribs (17 pairs), while the Central Asian horse has 18 pairs (36) of ribs.
This means that the horse described in the Vedas is the native Indian breed (with 34 ribs) and not the Central Asian variety.

Afshar
03-27-2018, 10:05 AM
It is really fascinating that domestic horses (as used by Central asian nomads in history) do not descend from Botai horses.

Ryukendo
03-28-2018, 06:34 AM
In verse I.162.18, the Rigveda describes the horse as having 34 ribs (17 pairs), while the Central Asian horse has 18 pairs (36) of ribs.
This means that the horse described in the Vedas is the native Indian breed (with 34 ribs) and not the Central Asian variety.

Is the following statement true?

The Siwalik horse with 34 ribs went extinct in the Pleistocene; this is an extremely old canard used by various OIT theorists which is simply factually untenable. There is no native Indian breed of horse with 34 ribs alive at the time of the Indo-Aryanisation of the subcontinent.

Ral
03-28-2018, 02:46 PM
It is really fascinating that domestic horses (as used by Central asian nomads in history) do not descend from Botai horses.
It is not fascinating .
Skeptics argue that there is not enough evidence for the domestication of the Botay horse. Optimists say that the Botay horse was domesticated. People having big fantasy claimed about the Botay horseriding. Probably the skeptics is the closest to the truth.

rhad
03-28-2018, 02:58 PM
It is not fascinating .
Skeptics argue that there is not enough evidence for the domestication of the Botay horse. Optimists say that the Botay horse was domesticated. People with great fantasies claimed about the Botay horseriding. Probably the skeptics is the closest to the truth.

Botay horses were domesticated. The 2009 finding established that. However the new finding suggests that Przewalski horses may have descended from them or are close relatives. It is just that modern horses are not their descendants, which means horse domestication may have happened twice at least or maybe not. This makes more sense if we assume that Botay horses were not ridden and there is no need to assume that horse domestication happened twice. It happened once but was a cultural tradition and humans domesticated different kinds of horses all over the steppe. Eventually one particular culture started selecting horses for riding over many generations and their horses eventually replaced others.

Megalophias
03-28-2018, 03:46 PM
Horses usually have 18 pairs of ribs, but sometimes 17. This is common among mammals, e.g. humans usually have 12 pairs, but occasionally 11 or 13. Some breeds, particularly Arabians, are more likely to have only 17 pairs. Possibly the breed favoured in ancient India was like Arabians; or maybe it just happened to be a 17-ribbed horse at one particularly important event which was immortalized in verse, and that became the standard.

Ral
03-29-2018, 12:16 AM
Botay horses were domesticated. The 2009 finding established that. However the new finding suggests that Przewalski horses may have descended from them or are close relatives. It is just that modern horses are not their descendants, which means horse domestication may have happened twice at least or maybe not. This makes more sense if we assume that Botay horses were not ridden and there is no need to assume that horse domestication happened twice. It happened once but was a cultural tradition and humans domesticated different kinds of horses all over the steppe. Eventually one particular culture started selecting horses for riding over many generations and their horses eventually replaced others.
As I know, skeptics argue their position by the fact that the Botay region was a large region of wild horse habitat (possibly hundreds of thousands ) and wild horse was the main species of the animal that the botayean hunted for. This explains the numerous bones of horses in the settlements. I'm not going to defend this position.

parasar
03-29-2018, 03:39 PM
Horses usually have 18 pairs of ribs, but sometimes 17. This is common among mammals, e.g. humans usually have 12 pairs, but occasionally 11 or 13. Some breeds, particularly Arabians, are more likely to have only 17 pairs. Possibly the breed favoured in ancient India was like Arabians; or maybe it just happened to be a 17-ribbed horse at one particularly important event which was immortalized in verse, and that became the standard.

There are other peculiarities too with Arabians.
"17 ribs (while most other horses have 18), 5 lumbar vertebrae (compared to 6 in other breeds) and 16 tail vertebrae (instead of 18)"
And are hot blooded.

The Rg Vedic hymn is to the horse in general, but it is possible that a particular horse is being recognized. The instructions are on how to carefully cut a horse for sacrifice.
"HYMN CLXII. The Horse ... The four-and-thirty ribs of the. Swift Charger, kin to the Gods, the slayer's hatchet pierces."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01162.htm

johen
03-29-2018, 03:40 PM
The Rg Vedic hymn is to the horse in general, but it is possible that a particular horse is being recognized. The instructions are on how to carefully cut a horse for sacrifice.
"HYMN CLXII. The Horse ... The four-and-thirty ribs of the. Swift Charger, kin to the Gods, the slayer's hatchet pierces."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01162.htm

Can I ask a few questions:

1. This kind of culture was totally not related to IVC, wasn't it?
So even if R1a could be found in IVC skulls, the R1a might not be connected to
modern hindu R1a-z93, right?
2. Is there any human sacrifice mentioned in Rigveda or ancient Hinduism?
3. Is the following horse in the temple related to Rigveda or not?
In my opinion, the other men's actions have something to do with nomadism, b/c the horse made horse owner
so superior to other people, like a god to other people at the ancient times.
So there could be no massacre at all when the chariots appeared. I think the neolithic farmers would just bow down to the charioteer as a god. As far as I know, South american indian could not use a bow well, being afraid of just the explosion of 15c rifle, even if the bow was more accurate to kill people than 15c rifle at that time.

http://www.ourglobaltrek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/india-khajuraho-10.jpg

P.s at similar time, chariot, horse sacrifice and human sacrifice at whole eurasia, coincident?????:

mycenaean:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Sacrifice_Polyxena_BM_GR1897.7-27.2.jpg
The sacrifice of Polyxena by the triumphant Greeks, Trojan War, c. 570-550 BCE

china bronze:

Abstract
Records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of Shang Dynasty. Human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in Shang Dynasty for worshipping spirits. Different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. As the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. In the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. The lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. The methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. With the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in Shang dynasty. These practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.

===> But CWC had no horse and human sacrifice at all, right?

centaur
05-09-2018, 06:07 PM
I need to work with a horse fertility genetics/breeding expert who can also help with transition to humans. Special interest in older eggs for both horses and humans -- the ones that no one wants to inject because they might "pop."
Who should I work with?

Additional questions for everyone:
1. From what I've read, the company that makes faces from DNA thinks they can at least show you differences between potential siblings. Has anyone confirmed this?
2. Can they also do a full body cartoon, not just face?
3. What has been done for face/body cartoons for horses?
4. I have a technique where I have a "racetrack" to sort sperm into buckets. I can then pull a few sperm from each bucket and run DNA. I want to
* display an excel type spreadsheet, sortable by clicking column header, for various traits/defects (directly from genes, or relatively neural network fitted from examples), and
* I want a thumbnail with cartoon for the potential child, given at least one egg that has had DNA run on it (or back solved from an embryo or child).
Who can I work with to demonstrate this on horses first? Horses have many traits that are inherited that can readily be converted to cartoons, and I'm sure many can translate over into human cartoons.
5. I have a 1994 mare whose children pay for their leases in jumper winnings. Horse eggs are double the diameter of human eggs. I want to demonstrate my sperm inject without popping egg technique on my mare's retrieved eggs first, so I don't delay based on human review boards. I have the frozen semen for the stallion I want -- he worked very well on her granddaughter and great granddaughter -- the foals are 2 yrs old and stunning. She herself did not get pregnant live cover, despite being turned put with a stallion for a full year. This young stallion impregnated the other 5 mares ;). How can I talk to about bridging the gap from horses to humans? Am I free to use my own eggs for the first human transition, as long as I don't use any other womens' eggs?
Thanks!