View Full Version : What is the history and origin of I1

Fire Haired
09-22-2013, 11:42 PM
For the history and origin of I1 M253 I have heard two main theory's. I1 M253 is around 15,000-20,000 years old and originated somewhere in non Nordic Europe then later developed into I1a Df29 spread to Scandinavia after the glaciers retreated starting about 9,000-11,000ybp and while in Scandinavia developed into I1a2 L22 and was the first major human settlement of Scandinavia. The other theory is that I1 is very young and spread to Scandinavia either in proto Balto Slavic speaking Corded ware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture) culture(2,900-2,450bc) along side R1a1a1b1 Z282 but the I1 was for some reason much higher or spread somehow in the late Neolithic or bronze age. This is based on new very young age estimates of I1 at 5,000 years old(click here (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1))

I agree much more with the theory that I1 M253 is around 15,000-20,000 years old and developed into I1a Df29 in central Europe then migrated to Scandinavia about 9,000-11,000ybp developing into I1a2 L22 and was the original y DNA haplogroup of Scandinavia.(Here is kind of an explaination of my opinon(Theory I1 orignally Paleoithic central European (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28974-Theory-I1-originally-from-Paloithic-Cro-magnon-central-Europe-not-Scandinavia)). Eupedia's agree's (Eupedia I1 page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml)) There are many reasons if I1 M253 came to Scandinavia only 5,000ybp or so. Then u are saying almost all Y DNA in Sweden and Norway from over 5,000ybp is gone. all the R1a(almost all under R1a1a1b1 Z283) came with Corded ware culture about 4,900-2,400ybp.
The R1b(almost all R1b1a2a1a L11 mainly Germanic branch R1b1a2a1a1 S21) and I2a2 P214 is all from migration of proto Germanic speakers out of central Europe starting about 4,000-3,500ybp.

Then ur saying their most popular Y DNA haplogroup I1(all under I1a Df29) came just 5,000ybp. The E1b1b, J1, J2, and G2a u can say is from Neolithic farmers so Funnel Beaker culture(6,300-4,800ybp) which those haplogroups are extremely rare J1 doesn't even hit 1% and J2 and G2a are only 1-5% in small areas of far southern Sweden and Norway. Then there is some but very very rare Uralic N1c1 which is more popular north well the closer u get to Uralic Finland and Suomi.
Is there evidence of a huge kill of in Sweden and Norway that is what it would take. That is what happened in the British isles with Celtic invasions during the bronze age about 3,500-4,500ybp(British ancestry almost all from Celtic and Germanic invaders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture)) the reason is conquest by war were the men die so there Y DNA lineages do to. That would be the only explanation.

Another thing is I1 M253 in Scandinavia does not unique to Germanic(Swedish, Danish, Norwegian) or Uralic(Finnish and Soumi) speakers. We have a pretty good idea of were the N1c1 in Uralic is from. According to FTDNA it would have spread to north east Europe about 6,000ybp. It is connected to Kunda culture(7,000-8,000ybp) and Comb Cermic culture(6,200-4,000ybp) both cultures showing huge huge connections with the distribution of N1c1 in Europe. It would have arrived from Siberia which can explain the extra Mongliod results Finnish and Soumi get in so many aust dna tests other Europeans do not. Like I said before all R1a(almost all R1a1a1b1 Z283) came with Corded ware culture about 4,900-4,400ybp all R1b(almost all under R1b1a2a1a L11 then Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21) and I2a2 P214 came with Germanic languages and Nordic bronze age culture about 4,000-3,500ybp. Then all J1, J2, G2a, and E1b1b is probably Neolithic and are extremely rare. So what about I1 for some reason it cant be explained as if it is the foundation Y DNa hg of Scandinavia and its percentages were lowered by invaders overtime.

Also according to Eupedia I1 page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml) the majority of Scandinavian I1 is under I1a2 L22 unlike continental European I1 it shows Finnish I1 is from the same source as Norwegian and Swedish I1. More evidence that I1 in Finland is from before the foundation of Germanic speakers in Sweden and Norway which started about 3,500-4,000ybp. Is 80% of Finnish I1 is under unqiue Finnish subclades under I1a2 L22. The areas were red hair is at 1%, Germanic R1b S21 is at 1-5% and so is I2a2 P214 is western Finland areas with historical Swedish settlement and were Swedish is still spoken. But it doesn't explain the Finnish I1 subclades showing they came before the bronze age so over 4,000ybp. This also means Finnish I1 brother in Sweden and Norway are very old and pre bronze age and pre Germanic. And probably means Scandinavian I1 arrived before Corded ware culture because u have to remember there is a whole another world of I1 subclades in continental Europe and now we know the Scandinavian ones are probably from before Corded ware culture. If Corded ware didn't spread it who did. And I doubt anyone had the weapon technology over 6,000ybp when almost all Scandinavians were hunter gathers so kill off everyone and spread I1. The most likely answer I can see is it was the first y DNA haplogroup in Scandinavia well it came as I1a Df29 and later formed into I1a2 L22.

This also means conteintal(mainly central) European I1a1 M227, I1a3 Z58, I1a4 Z63, and I1b Z131 have another origin and I1 M253 line that goes back over 11,000 years. I1 M253 then is a very old haplogroup I would guess 15,000-20,000ybp in central Europe.

11-27-2013, 02:29 PM
You only made mention of L22 as being the SNP coming after DF29. There are many more. It would be easier to avoid using the old haplogroup names like "I1a3" if you check the new ISOGG tree Z58 is "I1a2". Names keep changing using the terminal SNP makes things less confusing.

But what about the presence of other haplogroups such as I1-Z140, I1-L338 or others that appear in Scandinavia and Finland or in known areas of Germanic/Scandinavian influence?