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View Full Version : Am i R1b Df27 my surname in British? and is Df27 popular in more than Iberia



Fire Haired
09-23-2013, 03:32 AM
In the Geno 2.0 test my father got R1b1a2a1a P310/L11 which is the western European Germanic Italo Celtic? subclade of R1b(Spread of R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1350-Spread-of-R1b1a2a1a-L11-Germanic-Italo-Celts-in-western-Europe)). Geno 2.0 tests for Germanic? R1b1a2a1a1 S21, Italo Gaulic? R1b1a2a1a2b S28, Celtic? R1b1a2a1a2c L21 and later I learned we are not Germanic? R1b1a2a1a2e Df19. So the possibilities then are R1b1a2a1a L11*, R1b1a2a1a2 S116*, R1b1a2a1a2a Df27, and R1b1a2a1a2d L238. Since R1b L238 is very rare and from what I have read pretty much only found in Scandinavia since my direct male line goes back to the UK almost defintley Scotland or England that is really unlikely. R1b1a2a1a L11* is also very very rare I guess in Maciamo R1b L23(ht35) map were it shows R1b L23*. R1b L51*, R1b L11*, and R1b Z2103* in most of Britain and Ireland is 1-5% I guess makes it a possibility. I don't have any info on how popular R1b S116* is but I doubt anymore than R1b L11*.

When u put our STR's into I subclade and haplogroup predictor (http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/haplotest.htm)every time and I have done it over 10 times probably R1b North/South 2 is the most likely uselly around 50% probability with R1b S28 and R1b S21 second and third which I already know I don't belong to. I found out that R1b North/South is actulley under R1b Df27 I also heard actulley Df27 subclade Z196. If anything R1b1a2a1a2z Df27 seems most likely. But that is surprising since my male line goes back to the UK were the vast majority of R1b is Celtic R1b L21 and Germanic S21.

This also reminded me of how suprsing it is that deep deep subclades of R1b Df27 which are M153 and SRY2627 even though dominate around northern Iberia and southern France are found at 1-5% in the British isles and as far east as Germany and as far north as Scandinavia even though they should be young CeltIberian subclades.

Eupedia map of R1b Df27(M153 and SRY2627) click to enlarge
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif

Also in Eupedia's maps on the western coast of france you can see Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116 is around 60-70% and >75%.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

But maps of main subclades of S116 besides Df27. So R1b S28 and L21 combine are only 15-25% and 20-30% that leaves out about 45% to other R1b1a2a1a2 S116 most likely mainly R1b Df27 with some R1b S116*. Overall in most of France you have about 10-20% left to most likely R1b Df17 and R1b S116*. In Highlands of Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and Cornwall(last areas in Europe with surviving Celtic languages) Italo Celtic R1b S116 is about >75%. But their main subclade R1b L21 according to Eupedia's maps is only about 50-60% while in Ireland and west coast of Scotland >60%.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif
Then R1b S28 is about 1-5% in those areas. So that leaves about 10-20% to R1b Df27 and R1b S116*. So I don't think R1b Df27 is isolated to Iberia and is signature of Celts that migrated to Iberia like I did before. So I guess me having direct male line going back to British isles and having R1b Df27 is not extremely rare.

I think R1b L21 and R1b Df27 are signs of huge western expansion of proto Celts 3,500-4,500ybp during the bronze age. Before expansion of Urnfield culture then Hallstat culture about 3,500-2,500ybp in Celts France and west R1b S116 subclades would have only been R1b Df17 and R1b L21. R1b Df27 being the main in France and Iberia with minority R1b L21. While R1b L21 being dominate in British and Irish Celts with minority R1b Df27. Since now it seems R1b Df27 does not really break down into a specific area or Celtic language that hurts the theory of R1b1a2a1a L11 in western Europe being spread with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages.

Knowing the subclades and having age estimates of R1b Df27 throughout Europe mainly the British isles can give an idea if it came with R1b L21 3,500-4,500ybp or if it came from another migration. And of there are British and Irish R1b Df27 subclades and what about in France and Iberia.

Gray Fox
09-23-2013, 04:35 PM
"R1b Df27 being the main in France and Iberia with minority R1b L21. While R1b L21 being dominate in British and Irish Celts with minority R1b Df27. Since now it seems R1b Df27 does not really break down into a specific area or Celtic language that hurts the theory of R1b1a2a1a L11 in western Europe being spread with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages."

That's what I generally believe as well. With deeper testing I believe DF27 is going to be the most frequent P312 clade in France (At the very least, rubbing elbow's with U152). It's already proven that in Iberia.

R.Rocca
09-23-2013, 05:45 PM
That's what I generally believe as well. With deeper testing I believe DF27 is going to be the most frequent P312 clade in France (At the very least, rubbing elbow's with U152). It's already proven that in Iberia.

I am pretty certain it will as well.

Fire Haired
09-23-2013, 08:45 PM
It is also probably around 10-20% in British isles. I would bet more popular in the same areas R1b L21 and R1b P312 overall are more popular so highlands of Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and Cornwall the last places with Celtic languages. That would be evidences R1b Df27 came with R1b L21 as a minority or at least came before Rome conquered southern Britian and when the British isles was all Celtic. click on this

According to the numbers posted by user Jackson a thread on a website called Genetic Genology community. R1b P312/S116(XL21, U152) in England ranges from 6.3% in southwest and 21.2% in southeast. Most is probably R1b Df27. I am R1b L11(XS21, L21, U152, Df19) so I don't know if I am R1b P312+ but since in predictors every time I got most likely R1b North/south which is now under R1b Df27 and that it is probably around 10-20% in the UK and my direct male line goes back to Scotland and England it would make the most sense I am R1b Df27. Like i was saying about the subclades I wonder if not all are Iberian and evidence it expanded with all Celts in western Europe 3,500-4,500ybp the British isles might have their own subclades and France and Iberia might have their own R1b l21 subclades.

Fire Haired
09-23-2013, 08:53 PM
R1b L21 according to FTDNA is estimated to be 5,500-4,000 years old and obviously originated in France or west of France. That shows very early Celtic migrations deep into western Europe ranging from 3,500-4,500ybp I guess some would say it was not Celtic. I wonder what the age estimates for R1b Df27 are but I would bet they fit in the range from 3,500-5,500ybp. I think R1b DF27 and R1b L21 are markers of huge Celtic migrations that conquered all the land from France to the British isles to Iberia all of it. Then R1b S28 which spread with Urnfield culture(3,300ybp) in central Europe then Italic tribes(3,200-3,000ybp) and Hallstat Celtic tribes(3,000-2,500ybp) is like the eastern italo Celtic branch that spread kind of late.

But I think the only for sure time Celts arrived in Iberia is with Hallstat culture just 2,700ybp. A Roman historian said there were the Celts and the Iberians who fought in ancestry times and formed into the CeltIberians but they were two separate people and the Celts he was talking about I guess were the Hallstat Celts. But I think Celts may have arrived in Iberia before Hallstat culture or its father Urnfield I think Celts arrived at the most recent 3,500ybp.

alan
09-28-2013, 05:49 PM
Only way to find out for sure would be to test for DF27 then if its negative test for P312.