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View Full Version : To what ethnicity belongs haplogroup E1b1b1a1b?



Bobby Martnen
03-01-2018, 12:13 AM
Discuss.

spruithean
03-01-2018, 12:18 AM
Discuss.

Haplogroups do not belong to ethnicities. They are far older than that.

Bobby Martnen
03-02-2018, 04:26 AM
Haplogroups do not belong to ethnicities. They are far older than that.

You are my Haplo-I brother.

Shamayim
03-06-2018, 05:21 PM
Afroasiatic, possibly, Semitidic.

kingjohn
03-06-2018, 11:18 PM
no e-v13 is not afro-asiatic
e-v13 is european
e-m123-m34 is the afroasiatic -semitic one
there are different branches under e-m35

Tz85
03-07-2018, 04:26 AM
E-V13 is Balkan, Greek in Origin.

drobbah
03-07-2018, 05:23 AM
no e-v13 is not afro-asiatic
e-v13 is european
e-m123-m34 is the afroasiatic -semitic one
there are different branches under e-m35
Its quite strange that V13's siblings (V12,V22 and V65) are all prominent among Afro-Asiatic speakers while it is only found among Europeans.Does anyone know how and why V13 arrived from NE Africa to Europe?

P.S E-M123 is also found among South Cushitic speakers so it isn't a Semitic marker

Tz85
03-07-2018, 05:40 AM
Its quite strange that V13's siblings (V12,V22 and V65) are all prominent among Afro-Asiatic speakers while it is only found among Europeans.Does anyone know how and why V13 arrived from NE Africa to Europe?

P.S E-M123 is also found among South Cushitic speakers so it isn't a Semitic marker

E-V13 and E-V12, V22 are nothing a like in terms of origins. My guess is the exchange between the Greeks, and Egyptians.

kingjohn
03-07-2018, 06:02 AM
Its quite strange that V13's siblings (V12,V22 and V65) are all prominent among Afro-Asiatic speakers while it is only found among Europeans.Does anyone know how and why V13 arrived from NE Africa to Europe?

P.S E-M123 is also found among South Cushitic speakers so it isn't a Semitic marker

it is more semetic than j1
his ancestor e-z830 was found in levant natufian 8000-9000 bc
j1 came from the north
there is a big chance e-m123 originated in levant from an e-z830 ancestor and later spread to horn area.

drobbah
03-07-2018, 01:00 PM
E-V13 and E-V12, V22 are nothing a like in terms of origins. My guess is the exchange between the Greeks, and Egyptians. I beg to differ considering they all descend from V68 which originated in NE Africa.So if you are capable to answer my question which is how did V13 reach Europe with supporting evidence I would greatly appreciate it.

@KingJohn E-Z830 is shared among all Afro-Asiatic speaking populations except the Chadic speakers of the Sahel.So it isn't a haplogroup unique to Semites unlike J1

Tz85
03-07-2018, 02:40 PM
I beg to differ considering they all descend from V68 which originated in NE Africa.So if you are capable to answer my question which is how did V13 reach Europe with supporting evidence I would greatly appreciate it.

@KingJohn E-Z830 is shared among all Afro-Asiatic speaking populations except the Chadic speakers of the Sahel.So it isn't a haplogroup unique to Semites unlike J1

Just because they all descend from V68, doesn't mean a branch origins are in the same place. For example E-V12 is found up to 70% in Egyptians, yet V13 is basically non existent outside of Europe. I gave you my opinion how V13 made it into Europe. Considering V13 from a NE African ancestor, and V13 is most common in the Balkans, and Greece, my opinion is that V13 came to Europe through Greece.

kingjohn
03-07-2018, 04:02 PM
I beg to differ considering they all descend from V68 which originated in NE Africa.So if you are capable to answer my question which is how did V13 reach Europe with supporting evidence I would greatly appreciate it.

@KingJohn E-Z830 is shared among all Afro-Asiatic speaking populations except the Chadic speakers of the Sahel.So it isn't a haplogroup unique to Semites unlike J1

m34 is pretty limited to ethiopia and his ancestor m123* without m34 mutation was
found in north egypt levant cases and north portugal .
m34 was found in bronze age armenia
i don't see an ethiopian when i look in the miror honestly :)

p.s
j1 was found in ehg in russia maybe some clades of it are semetic but i wouldn't call j1 a it semetic marker per se .....

Agamemnon
03-07-2018, 06:56 PM
E-M34 is around 20,000 years old, much like J1-M267. Both markers are too old to be labeled "Semitic" (Proto-Semitic was a Late Chalcolithic-Early Bronze Age language). That being said, several branches are certainly bound to have been major markers among the Proto-Semites, branches such as Y14899 and L791. This is clearer with J1-P58 though, where L862 and its immediate branches are very strongly correlated with the spread of the earliest Semitic speakers. The main difference between the two is that J1 apparently did not take part in the earlier Afroasiatic dispersals, while E-M34 almost certainly did (which is why we find J1 in Karelian Hunter-Gatherers)... Which brings us to E-V13, which (IMHO) is bound to have originated in a population speaking an early Afroasiatic language (which probably died out), if not V13 then Z1919 (which is ancestral to V13).

kingjohn
03-07-2018, 07:39 PM
E-M34 is around 20,000 years old, much like J1-M267. Both markers are too old to be labeled "Semitic" (Proto-Semitic was a Late Chalcolithic-Early Bronze Age language). That being said, several branches are certainly bound to have been major markers among the Proto-Semites, branches such as Y14899 and L791. This is clearer with J1-P58 though, where L862 and its immediate branches are very strongly correlated with the spread of the earliest Semitic speakers. The main difference between the two is that J1 apparently did not take part in the earlier Afroasiatic dispersals, while E-M34 almost certainly did (which is why we find J1 in Karelian Hunter-Gatherers)... Which brings us to E-V13, which (IMHO) is bound to have originated in a population speaking an early Afroasiatic language (which probably died out), if not V13 then Z1919 (which is ancestral to V13).


have to agree

drobbah
03-07-2018, 07:55 PM
m34 is pretty limited to ethiopia and his ancestor m123* without m34 mutation was
found in north egypt levant cases and north portugal .

E-Z830 is intrusive into Eurasia and as Agamemnon said it isn't a Semitic marker as you claimed earlier since it is too old so I don't know what you are arguing about in this post.


i don't see an ethiopian when i look in the miror honestly :)

Well your M35 & PAA/Proto-Semitic speaking ancestors were from NE Africa :)


Which brings us to E-V13, which (IMHO) is bound to have originated in a population speaking an early Afroasiatic language (which probably died out), if not V13 then Z1919 (which is ancestral to V13). Where do you think was V13's point of entry into Europe? In the Balkans? Italy/Sicily? Iberia?

Tz85
03-07-2018, 08:05 PM
E-Z830 is intrusive into Eurasia and as Agamemnon said it isn't a Semitic marker as you claimed earlier since it is too old so I don't know what you are arguing about in this post.

Well your M35 & PAA/Proto-Semitic speaking ancestors were from NE Africa :)

Where do you think was V13's point of entry into Europe? In the Balkans? Italy/Sicily? Iberia?

May I ask, what is your interest in E-V13?

Finn
03-07-2018, 08:07 PM
I beg to differ considering they all descend from V68 which originated in NE Africa.So if you are capable to answer my question which is how did V13 reach Europe with supporting evidence I would greatly appreciate it.

@KingJohn E-Z830 is shared among all Afro-Asiatic speaking populations except the Chadic speakers of the Sahel.So it isn't a haplogroup unique to Semites unlike J1

I guess I'm a white raven: the most northern E-V22? (Besides some Somali that went recently to Sweden or so). E-V13 had a founder effect on the Balkan (neolithic heritage?). E-V22 is more north-east Africa. With some spread around the Mediterranean Sea and in the Middle East (like the Emirates).

kingjohn
03-07-2018, 08:11 PM
E-Z830 is intrusive into Eurasia and as Agamemnon said it isn't a Semitic marker as you claimed earlier since it is too old so I don't know what you are arguing about in this post.

Well your M35 & PAA/Proto-Semitic speaking ancestors were from NE Africa :)

Where do you think was V13's point of entry into Europe? In the Balkans? Italy/Sicily? Iberia?

all i know is that e-z830 is the ancestor of e-m123/m34
and that it was found in natufian in 8000- 9000 bc damn old
before any j1 step any foot in the levant .....
yes i know from northeast africa before 11,000 years ago i can live with it :)

drobbah
03-07-2018, 08:13 PM
May I ask, what is your interest in E-V13?
The history/linguistics/genetics of the entire NE African region from Egypt to Northern Kenya is always of interest to me and V13 just so happens to come from NE Africa my V12+ brotha :)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/NE_Africa.png/220px-NE_Africa.png

kingjohn
03-07-2018, 08:32 PM
buttom line if we speak about e-v13 this a european clade
the mutation originated in europe
his distant ancestor was from northeast africa but it was long long ago in time .......

so to the question raised by bobby martanen in this thread


the answere :

europeans

Agamemnon
03-07-2018, 08:34 PM
Where do you think was V13's point of entry into Europe? In the Balkans? Italy/Sicily? Iberia?

V13 probably arose in Europe, however I strongly suspect L618 (which is directly upstream) arrived in the Balkans and the Aegean via Anatolia with an Anatolia_N-type group (this must've coincided with the spread of Cardial ware). L618 might show up in unexpected samples when we'll get more ancient data, that's also something we should keep in mind.

kingjohn
03-07-2018, 08:46 PM
we have e-L618 the ancestor of e-v13
in zemunica cave dalmatia in 5400 bc .....

Finn
03-07-2018, 09:01 PM
delete

Shamayim
03-09-2018, 05:53 PM
E-V13 spread from North Africa to Europe, it is not European nor Indo-European. Furthermore, its upstream clade and sister clades peak among Afroasiatic peoples.

lgmayka
03-09-2018, 11:28 PM
V13 probably arose in Europe, however I strongly suspect L618 (which is directly upstream) arrived in the Balkans and the Aegean via Anatolia with an Anatolia_N-type group (this must've coincided with the spread of Cardial ware).
Oddly, YFull's two examples of E-L618(xV13) (https://yfull.com/tree/E-L618/) are from Sardinia (a research sample) and Latvia.

Kaipiro
07-18-2018, 03:40 AM
What about V13's ancestor belonging or being related to proto-afroasiatic people?
Is this even possible?