Help on testing guidance - FireHaired

[Fire Haired]

So what do u mean Mikwww by one SNP at a time. I don't understand the idea of a SNP do u think if I do some type of FTDNA test I can figure out which subclade I am.

[TigerMW]

Geno 2.0 tests for Germanic? R1b1a2a1a1 S21/U106, Italo Gaulish(Urnfield culture?) R1b1a2a1a2b S28/U152, and Celtic R1b1a2a1a2c L21. Our direct male line all we know goes back to Scotland or England L21 and S21 take up almost all of Britain's R1b. So I know we have something very very very very very rare I think probably R1b1a2a1a2a Df27. Because I but our haplotype into one of those predictors and every time R1b North/South was most likely. Later I found out the predictor was out of date and now R1b North/South is under R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 which is over 50% in Iberia, over 20% in most of France, and 1-5% in British isles. I am hoping for R1b1a2a1a L11* because that is the original Germanic Italo Celtic form probably what those 4,600ybp Bell Beaker R1b samples. Or had. Or proto Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116/P312*.

You may have a positive SNP result that is important but that National Genographic and FTDNA don't list in their official phylogenetic trees. Also, your Y STRs might be very important. Predictor tools are best at predicting strong matching cases, but that doesn't mean we couldn't get some additional guidance for further testing for your Y DNA kit by looking at the STRs. I've got thousands of R1b people who have tested that we can compare with you. If you haven't, please join the R1b project. What is the kit # you are trying to determine how to proceed with?

There is no use talking in generalities. Let's look at your details and then I can tell you where your kit might fit in and explain what testing options might pertain and what they mean.

[Fire Haired]

Mikewww what do u mean by SNP sorry I don't totally understand. Do u know how possible it is one SNP at a time can helo find what subclade I am.

[Fire Haired]

You may have a positive SNP result that is important but that National Genographic and FTDNA don't list in their official phylogenetic trees. Also, your Y STRs might be very important. Predictor tools are best at predicting strong matching cases, but that doesn't mean we couldn't get some additional guidance for further testing for your Y DNA kit by looking at the STRs. I've got thousands of R1b people who have tested that we can compare with you. If you haven't, please join the R1b project. What is the kit # you are trying to determine how to proceed with?

There is no use talking in generalities. Let's look at your details and then I can tell you where your kit might fit in and explain what testing options might pertain and what they mean.

It is not me its my father I am not an adult he is the boss of the house so he had the right to take the test and he deals with all the money stuff. First a few years ago he did Ancestry.com which had total BS about cro magnon and artisans and only told us R1b and as if our direct male line tells our full ancestry or something how would a R1b1a2a L23 person from Iraq react to that. We also did Geno 2.0 which I think is mainly BS they also say Paleoithic R1b and as if it tells more about ur ancestry than it actulley does. Their migration maps are only based on distrubtation. But they did tell us R1b1a2a1a P310 which I later learned is also L11. Our kit number is NG7P2KMG7P. I saw on FTDNA R1b project the only one my dad would want to do is 12 STR for 48$ no way anything 100$ or more do u think there is something under 100$ were we can find what subclade were apart of. Thank u very much for trying to help.

[TigerMW]

It is not me its my father I am not an adult he is the boss of the house so he had the right to take the test and he deals with all the money stuff. First a few years ago he did Ancestry.com which had total BS about cro magnon and artisans and only told us R1b and as if our direct male line tells our full ancestry or something how would a R1b1a2a L23 person from Iraq react to that. We also did Geno 2.0 which I think is mainly BS they also say Paleoithic R1b and as if it tells more about ur ancestry than it actulley does. Their migration maps are only based on distrubtation. But they did tell us R1b1a2a1a P310 which I later learned is also L11. Our kit number is NG7P2KMG7P. I saw on FTDNA R1b project the only one my dad would want to do is 12 STR for 48$ no way anything 100$ or more do u think there is something under 100$ were we can find what subclade were apart of. Thank u very much for trying to help.

Do you think you can get your father to transfer his results to an FTDNA public project. It's free and then we could see the results, although they would only be on the Y DNA SNP report screen which is this one:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=ysnp

If you guys get the Y STRs you'll then also show up on this screen. It may not be possible, but I recommend a minimum of 67 STRs.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

If you take your Y STR results from Ancestry.com and type them in as a Ysearch record I can look at them and compare them with others. Ysearch is free but different testing companies report some Y STRs differently so make sure you read closely about any conversions required.
http://www.ysearch.org/

DF27 is a possibility since P312 and DF27 are NOT in the Geno 2 test.

To better understand SNPs and other basic stuff about genetic genealogy I recommend joining a group designed for general Q and A like this one:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DNA-NEWBIE/info

[Fire Haired]

Here is our STR's from ancestry.com
19a=14 385a/b=11/14 388=12 3891/11=14/31 390=24 391=12 392=13 393=13
426=13 437=14 438=12 439=13 441=14 442=16 444=14 445=12 446=12 447=25
448=19 449=30 452=30 459=11

455=11 456=16 458=16 459a/b=9/10 460=10 461=12 462=11 463=24
464a/b/c/d=14/15/15/14 GGAATIBO=10 YCAIIa/b=19/24 YGATA-A10=15 635=23
Y-GATA-H4=12

and if it is free my dad will defintley do it. Especially if u will find close matches because if someone has our surname that can help tell when they came to America and were in the UK they originated. We have been able to trace with records back my great*4 grandfather born in 1790 he was born in America. His son on our line said he was born in New York in 1817 and came to Indiana in 1835. His first wife came from Otsego, New York and they married and maybe meet in Indiana and we have records of his father living in a near by town to Otsego in the 1830's but it also said he was not born there. So I guess we cant put him down or his son into that Y SNP report screen. His first wife was a Webster and we also found there was a family with our surname the Webster family inter married with and knew really well if that is us that would bring our male line back to Essex, England.

My great grandfather told my grandfather the family is originally Scotch Irish so lowlands of Scotland. Were not sure right now hopefully if u find a match with our surname and we can trace were in the Uk they came from. If we have a rare branch like R1b1a2a1a L11*, R1b1a2a1a2 P312/S116*, R1b1a2a1a2d or e L238 or Df19. That will give a better idea of how it is distributed but not if all we know is it goes back to the UK.

I have been waiting for something like this thanks for taking ur time on this.

[TigerMW]

This was off topic on a thread in R1b general so I'll start it up here.

FireHaired, please type those DYS values into Ysearch.org by creating a new ID record. Don't forget the password and ID they give you. Please post the Ysearch ID back on this thread and then I can more easily copy the haplotype into my spreadsheet without making errors.

Ysearch is free.

Be careful and make sure you do any conversions needed to go from Ancestry.com to Ysearch. I think you have to convert GataH4.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/dna/messages/3900.html

You mentioned the North-South cluster. I do you see you have 437=14. That is one of the elements of the R1b North-South (Z220+) cluster, but you have 448=19 instead of 448=18 for North-South. Also Geno2 should have reported a positive for Z220 for you if your kit was North-South/Z220+.

Your kit could very easily be P312 or DF27, but let's do a Ysearch comparison.

[TigerMW]

Here is our STR's from ancestry.com
19a=14 385a/b=11/14 388=12 3891/11=14/31 390=24 391=12 392=13 393=13
426=13 437=14 438=12 439=13 441=14 442=16 444=14 445=12 446=12 447=25
448=19 449=30 452=30 459=11

455=11 456=16 458=16 459a/b=9/10 460=10 461=12 462=11 463=24
464a/b/c/d=14/15/15/14 GGAATIBO=10 YCAIIa/b=19/24 YGATA-A10=15 635=23
Y-GATA-H4=12
...

You defnitely see P310+ in your father's results, right?


... We also did Geno 2.0 ... they did tell us R1b1a2a1a P310 which I later learned is also L11. ...

Have you transferred your Geno2 account to FTDNA and joined the R1b project yet? This is free. I'd like to look closer at the Y DNA SNP report for your kit.
I just noticed you have 426=13 with 393=13. That's a sign of a possible L51* status or Z2113+. However, an L11+/P310+ result would nullify this possibility.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b_Descendency_Tree.jpg

[lgmayka]

Fire Haired, your Ysearch entry should subtract 5 from DYS442 and subtract 1 from GATA-H4 (http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/ADNA_FTDNA.html).

Unfortunately, you will then find that your nearest neighbors are at a genetic distance of 8 on 32 markers, which is very distant indeed:
Fennessy of Ireland (39BTZ (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=39BTZ&p=1), HBZ43 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=HBZ43&p=1), FV2ZH (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=FV2ZH&p=1))
Hood of Virginia (H7DV8 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=H7DV8&p=1))
Correa (T7QVF (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=T7QVF&p=1))

Warner (SX42F (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=SX42F&p=1)), at a distance of 9 on 32 markers, has your 13 at DYS426.

If we consider only the slower-changing markers, your nearest neighbors are at a genetic distance of 5 on 25 markers:
Overton of Louisiana (WSEJX (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=WSEJX&p=1))
Allen of England (AQJ6J (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=AQJ6J&p=1)) - has your 13 at DYS426
Ford of South Carolina (24JQF (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=24JQF&p=1))
Sotomayor of Mexico (KKNF9 (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=KKNF9&p=1))

But please understand that all of these "neighbors" are very distant. Their common patrilineal ancestor with you may have lived a couple thousand years ago.

[Fire Haired]

Have you transferred your Geno2 account to FTDNA and joined the R1b project yet? This is free. I'd like to look closer at the Y DNA SNP report for your kit.
I just noticed you have 426=13 with 393=13. That's a sign of a possible L51* status or Z2113+. However, an L11+/P310+ result would nullify this possibility.

I did two nights ago but it says the password i put in is wrong then when i try to make a new one it says my email is wrong. Then when i try to transfer again it says the kit has already been transferred so it looks like there is no way to do it again. I have the SNP's on a excel i don't know how to send them to you Mikwww

[TigerMW]

I did two nights ago but it says the password i put in is wrong then when i try to make a new one it says my email is wrong. Then when i try to transfer again it says the kit has already been transferred so it looks like there is no way to do it again. I have the SNP's on a excel i don't know how to send them to you Mikwww
What is your Ysearch ID? I'll copy the STRs in from it.

I know it will be a little long, but go ahead and just copy/paste all of your positive SNP results into a reply on this thread. I can copy those in my spreadsheet to but can probably just look at it as I'm familiar with a lot of the SNPs downstream of L11 anyway.

I see you have your profile/avator as being DF27. Is there any particular reason? I think you could be because P312 and DF27 aren't in Geno 2, but I don't know.

[Fire Haired]

My Y search ID is Z5JSQ. It will take maybe hundreds or thousends of posts to show all the SNP's.

[Fire Haired]

SNP
Chr
Allele1
Allele2




CTS100
Y
C
C




CTS10004
Y
G
G




CTS10009
Y
G
G




CTS1001
Y
A
A




CTS10010
Y
C
C




CTS10012
Y
C
C




CTS10013
Y
T
T




CTS10020
Y
T
T




CTS10021
Y
A
A




CTS10022
Y
G
G




CTS10033
Y
G
G




CTS10036
Y
C
C




CTS10038
Y
G
G




CTS10040
Y
G
G




CTS10043
Y
C
C




CTS10048
Y
T
T




CTS10051
Y
G
G




CTS10053
Y
C
C




CTS10054
Y
C
C




CTS10056
Y
T
T




CTS10057
Y
C
C

[TigerMW]

My Y search ID is Z5JSQ. there are seriously 10,000's of SNP's it is going to have to be 10-20 posts. and should I only do Y DNA Snp's.

No, no. I may not know what you are seeing. Do you have a list of just positive SNPs in alphbetical order?

Here is an example of what I mean from the R1b Project Y DNA SNP report screen:
CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2482+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3599+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L132+, L15+, L16+, L278+, L350+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L498+, L506+, L566+, L721+, L747+, L768+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6250+, PF6270+, PF6272+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, Z486+, M335-

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=ysnp
This was kit 267597. Is there anything like that you are looking at?

[Fire Haired]

No, no. I may not know what you are seeing. Do you have a list of just positive SNPs in alphbetical order?
NO I have what I have showed is the raw data or Expert options on Geno 2,0 suppose to have that. All I know is I am L11+, U106-, L21-, U152-, and Df19-.

[lgmayka]

I did two nights ago but it says the password i put in is wrong then when i try to make a new one it says my email is wrong.
Do you have the kit number of the FTDNA account you created, and the email address you gave for it? If so, try to recover the password through this page (http://www.familytreedna.com/forgot-login.aspx).

[Fire Haired]

I already tried that it said my email and password were incorrect?? So I there is really nothing I can do. I put in a crazy password I forgot.

[TigerMW]

NO I have what I have showed is the raw data or Expert options on Geno 2,0 suppose to have that. All I know is I am L11+, U106-, L21-, U152-, and Df19-.

I think you are saying you have an "expert opinion". Is that what you mean rather than "expert options". If so, who is the expert you looked at your data. Can we email him/her?

[Fire Haired]

I think you are saying you have an "expert opinion". Is that what you mean rather than "expert options". If so, who is the expert you looked at your data. Can we email him/her?

Here is his email David F Reynolds <[email protected]>; I asked him on this website he has an account. I really don't know how he got my Raw data maybe he is connected with Geno 2.0. The Expert option allowed u to download a CSV file which I could not it doesn't mean a expert helps you.

[TigerMW]

Here is his email David F Reynolds <[email protected]>; I asked him on this website he has an account. I really don't know how he got my Raw data maybe he is connected with Geno 2.0. The Expert option allowed u to download a CSV file which I could not it doesn't mean a expert helps you.

I know him. I'll send him an email but he would only have a file on your kit if you sent it to him. What is the identifier # or kit # you sent him and I'll ask him for an update?

[Fire Haired]

I know him. I'll send him an email but he would only have a file on your kit if you sent it to him. What is the identifier # or kit # you sent him and I'll ask him for an update?

This is the email I sent him
I would really like to see the raw data myself. I have tried to download
> but i cant. U gave some info on downloading "7-zip" which did not work
> can u please help to get the raw date

My kit number though is NG7P2KMG7P. If he has a file or whatever would u be able to find my SNP's and get an idea if I am P312+ or Df27+ or even Df99+ and L239+.

[David]

After analyzing the raw data for NG7P2KMG7P, below is the message I sent with respect to the kit:


Attached is an unzipped download of your data.

It shows you to be P310+ U152- L21- DF19-.

However P312, L238, and DF27 are not tested, so we don't actually
know for sure which haplogroup you belong to. While R-P310 is a
possibility, it is not that common, and you are far more likely to be
either R-P312 or R-DF27.

Regards,
david

[lgmayka]

I already tried that it said my email and password were incorrect??
That sounds like you were trying to log in the regular way. I am not suggesting that. I am suggesting that you recover your password using your kit number and email address (http://www.familytreedna.com/forgot-login.aspx). If necessary, you can even recover your kit number solely from your email address.

If your account has an incorrect/mistyped email address, you will have to contact FTDNA to regain control of it, using other identifying information. Call +1.713.868.1438.

[TigerMW]

After analyzing the raw data for NG7P2KMG7P, below is the message I sent with respect to the kit:
Thank you, David. Can you see his Z196? Z195? Are they ancestral or no call's. If both ancestral, this could be a fairly rare type kit.

Fire Haired, we are kind of back to where we started. It's important to transfer your results from Geno 2 to an FTDNA account and join a project. For you it should be the R1b project. That's all free.

As David, said there is a very good chance you are P312+ or both P312+ DF27+.

P312 and DF27 are available for $39 each under FTDNA's advance order menu. There are a couple of options. If you test P312+ then you should probably test DF27 next. However, if you test DF27 first and are positive, you are done so I prefer this latter sequence.

[David]

Thank you, David. Can you see his Z196? Z195? Are they ancestral or no call's. If both ancestral, this could be a fairly rare type kit.

Mike, Z195 is ancestral and Geno 2.0 does not test Z196.

--david

[TigerMW]

Mike, Z195 is ancestral and Geno 2.0 does not test Z196.

--david

Thanks. I was kind of hopijng for a Z195 no call as as that would open greater odds of a DF27+. We are left with the P312* possibility or the DF27* possibility (or of course true L11*). I don't know which and don't lean one way or another other than there are just probably more DF27* folks out there than P312*. The 426=13 is a bit interesting.

[Fire Haired]

IF for another reason the FTDNA transfer does not work. Is it possible just looking at my SNP's u could get an idea of what subclade I probably am or since geno 2.0 doesn't test P312 and Df27 for certain subclades the defying SNPs would be there. What about Df99 do u think that is a possibility.

[Timothy]

Did you ever do the Ancestry.com Third Party Transfer to FTDNA for $58 offer? For $58 you get a 25 marker FTDNA account if did ancestry's 33 marker test, or a 37 marker FTDNA account if you did ancestry's 46 marker test. That way you can compare to FTDNA's large database, and post markers to the above mentioned projects. Then, at the next upgrade sale, upgrade from 25 to 37 or 67, or 37 to 67.